--- Day changed Sun Jul 19 2009
00:00 < kanzure> um how do I delete the last three commits?
00:00 < kanzure> git rebase --onto master~3
00:00 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:00 < kanzure> thanks
00:01 < genehacker> heh
00:01 < genehacker> this website came up showing my computer had viruses
00:01 < genehacker> with fake winblows folders and everything
00:01 < genehacker> I loled
00:06 -!- Smari [n=spm@81-15-55-92.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
00:08 < CIA-73> skdb:  * r0e892a4273da /trans-tech.yaml: more
00:09 < fenn> genehacker: welcome to the higher moral ground
00:12 < katsmeow-afk> hmm,, praps i should ask in here,,, how can i improve the 3D effect on http://DesignerThinking.com/stereoimages.html ?
00:13 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r7c47e0952968 /trans-tech.yaml: tried trans-tech mods
00:14 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: looks good to me; why do you want to improve it?
00:14 < katsmeow-afk> to make it look exelent
00:14 < katsmeow-afk> is there anything i overlooked in the technique?
00:16 < katsmeow-afk> tomorrow i start plating the hull over, so tomorrow is the last day to redo pics of the framing
00:18 < kanzure> functionality is a tree but the dependency is a graph?
00:23 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: well it looks crappy because you're scaling the images in the browser instead of with an image editing program
00:28 -!- Smari [n=spm@dsl-149-118-111.hive.is] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:33 < kanzure> hey Smari 
00:33 < Smari> y0
00:33 < Smari> I'm actually going to sleep.
00:34 < Smari> it's 5:30 :P
00:41 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, i did scale them to 800x600 in imagemajik
00:41 < katsmeow-afk> i should scale them smaller?
00:45 < fenn> two 800x600 pictures side by side means the viewer should have a 1600+ pixel monitor
00:45 < katsmeow-afk> 400x300 ?
00:46 -!- Smari [n=spm@dsl-149-118-111.hive.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
00:46 < katsmeow-afk> 600x450?
00:46 < fenn> meh
00:47 < fenn> it doesnt look that bad as-is
00:47 < fenn> i've just never seen dynamic scaling anywhere on purpose
00:47 < fenn> it's usually people being lazy or stupid
00:47 < katsmeow-afk> i got tired of every other webpage being fixed too wide
00:53 < kanzure> git fetch foo --
00:53 < kanzure> git merge foo/master
00:53 < kanzure> git remote add foo /tmp/test_work #this was done a few lines above
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r14c685a39220 /dep/dep.py: work on dep.py
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r5691a719f7b1 /dep/dep.py: commenting, some unit tests
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * rf12d2429a739 /dep/dep.py: step methods for dep.py
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * rf7fc1e8f69ff /dep/dep.py: fucked up the one unit test.
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * rd5faaab45f55 /dep/dep.py: debugging the unit test (it works now)
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * rab0c93e9bda6 /dep/dep.py: removing cruft
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r62c2bccda4b7 /dep/dep.py: dep.py stuff
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r7ba4586a0fca /dep/dependency.py: added dependency.py ideas
00:54 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * rbeb860c9a38a /dep/ (dep.py dependency.py): Merge commit 'foo/master'
00:54 < QuantumG> I started some new work yesterday.. considered using git for about 2 minutes.. then just used bzr
00:54 < kanzure> Use of uninitialized value $parent[0] in concatenation (.) or string at /var/www/skdb.git/ciabot_git.pl line 147.
00:54 < kanzure> error: Object 64d31c9c56250ac6e200d0aadcd35d7321f0f45f is a tree, not a commit
00:55 < kanzure> yay for git-import-folder (when it works)
00:55 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, refresh
00:56 < katsmeow-afk> the 2nd and 4th are 400x300 from the original 7megapixels images
00:57 < fenn> you mean 3rd and 4th?
00:57 < kanzure> http://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/beb860c9a38a8b20a2579dc822265b83bb50c6c8/dep/dep.py
00:57 < kanzure> that was imported from my ~/sandbox/dep/ folder 
00:57 < kanzure> and note how the history is magically preserved :)
00:57 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, sorry
00:57 < katsmeow-afk> that apparent? they do look less jaggy
00:59 < fenn> QuantumG: most people just go with whatever they're familiar with
00:59 < katsmeow-afk> but i don't have a huge screen to look at the page on, so i dunno what that is doing to layout, or to the other pics
01:00 < fenn> they look exactly the same except for jaggies, on my 1024x768 monitor
01:00 < katsmeow-afk> same size as m ine
01:00  * katsmeow-afk edits out the bigger pics then
01:02 < QuantumG> I'm probably equally familiar with git and bzr... and much more familiar with svn... it's just that I find bzr the easiest to use.
01:13 -!- any76103195 [n=someone@75-120-43-228.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:13 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-9-252.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
01:13 -!- any76103195 is now known as katsmeow-afk
01:15 < katsmeow-afk> thanks fenn :-)
01:16 < bkero>  <3 mah git
01:31 < kanzure> http://gnowgi.org/2008/12/16/debian-dependency-map/
01:32 < bkero> http://dionysian-mind.net/pics/Rapeclock.jpg
01:32 < kanzure> http://www.gnowledge.org/
01:32 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/debgraph
01:33 < kanzure> "Just a note from a maintainer’s perspective: “pruning” redundant edges might give you a graph that is nicer to look at, but loses some important information."
01:33  * katsmeow-afk slaps bkero again
01:33 < kanzure> "I hope, that by looking at the graph, I will be able to identify clusters of dependencies, and split the package in a near-optimal way."
01:34 < bkero> http://www.gnowledge.org/debmap_view?objid=ddate
01:34 < kanzure> http://www.gnowledge.org/debmap_view?objid=python
01:34 < kanzure> heh
01:35 < bkero> katsmeow-afk: good heavens, just look at the time
01:35 < kanzure> oh man
01:35 < kanzure> http://www.gnowledge.org/debmap_view?objid=kde-core
01:35 < kanzure> kde depends on perl? hah
01:36 < katsmeow-afk> well, if anyone wants to know why i don't date, i can point to you as well as some others, bkero
01:36 < bkero> This is why I don't use KDE: http://www.gnowledge.org/debmap_view?objid=amarok
01:36 < bkero> katsmeow-afk: Are you a woman?
01:36 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
01:37 < bkero> and that sort of humor doesn't appeal to you?
01:37 < katsmeow-afk> rape? nope
01:37 < bkero> It's not the rape that's humorous, it's pyramid head.
01:37 < kanzure> well at least men can laugh about us getting raped
01:37 < bkero> also, a clock
01:37 < kanzure> it's a common stereotype to assume that men are not raped
01:37 < katsmeow-afk> if it weren't true that a rape occused,, what, every 80 seconds in the usa
01:38 < kanzure> occused or occured?
01:38 < bkero> katsmeow-afk: I can guarantee that I'm unlike any other person you've ever met.
01:38 < kanzure> guess it doesn't make much of a difference
01:38 < katsmeow-afk> kanzure, i did not assume men are not raped, lots legal cases of cops using battons to rape men
01:38 < katsmeow-afk> occurs
01:38 < bkero> also lots of men raping men, and women raping men
01:38 < katsmeow-afk> and women raping women
01:39 < kanzure> look at the time
01:39 < katsmeow-afk> doesn't really matter who is doing it to whom
01:39 < bkero> It's rape.
01:39 < bkero> katsmeow-afk: Maybe my picture was social commentary on how tragically common rape is.
01:39 < kanzure> http://www.gnowledge.org/scalefree
01:40 -!- Overand is now known as Overand|Bitchy_m
01:40 < bkero> Maybe rapes per capita should be a dataset available by country per year on gapminder.
01:40 < katsmeow-afk> k
01:40 -!- Overand|Bitchy_m is now known as Overand|Bitchy
01:40 < kanzure> http://www.gnowledge.org/featured_maps?subject=bio&objid=517&level=3 meh? what's going on here?
01:40 < kanzure> hey Overand.
01:40 < Overand|Bitchy> hi.
01:42 < katsmeow-afk> well, this could be taken two ways : Several of us use Debian GNU/Linux and among other features we have all appreciated the way Debian software package dependencies are calculated to give us astable package. 
01:42 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: I neglected to mention why I was bringing this up
01:42  * katsmeow-afk listens
01:43 < kanzure> I recently committed skdb/dep/dep.py
01:43 < kanzure> it's basically some classes for dependency graph modelling
01:43 < kanzure> related to hardware and so on
01:43 < kanzure> right now it sucks immensely
01:43 < kanzure> but this is something that there should be unit tests for, for instance
01:43 < kanzure> it's a useful way of thinking.. and could be improved with some software backing up the thinking and concepts for planning
01:43 < bkero> kanzure: Shouldn't a DEPEND and RDEPEND lists cover that sort of thing?
01:44 < kanzure> in fact, I kind of already implement this when I think naturally- regarding resolved dependencies versus unresolved dependencies, et.
01:44 < kanzure> bkero: RDEPEND?
01:44 < katsmeow-afk> i'd like to see the pics fit on one screen
01:44 < kanzure> heh
01:44 < kanzure> what else are you going to do with all that whitespace
01:44 < kanzure> but draw arcs :(
01:44 < bkero> kanzure: reverse dependencies
01:45 < kanzure> er, what are reverse dependencies?
01:45 < bkero> THey exist in bitbake files, ebuild files, and arch packages
01:45 < bkero> kanzure: runtime dependencies
01:45 < kanzure> I see.
01:45 < kanzure> but these are different from regular dependencies?
01:45 < bkero> Sometimes
01:45 < bkero> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/index.html
01:46 < kanzure> I need a way to model this.
01:46 < kanzure> so, if you look at skdb/trans-tech.yaml, there's this dependency graph of interesting transhumanist projects
01:46 < kanzure> but the problem is that it's not easy to "think" about
01:46 < bkero> kanzure: package object, has a list of package IDs
01:46 < kanzure> because you're not sure if you're introducing cycles or other weird shit
01:46 < kanzure> and this is all backwards anyway
01:46 < kanzure> since most of this stuff doesn't happen top-down
01:47 < bkero> kanzure: deb = new package;  deb.dependencies = [screwhead1, screwhead2, thread1]
01:47 < kanzure> and it's kind of weird since as you resolve dependencies, the number of unmet dependencies decreases, or something
01:47 < kanzure> right
01:47 < kanzure> but then you want to do other things as well like maybe:
01:47 < kanzure> print_dependencies()
01:47 < kanzure> print_dependencies(depth=inf)
01:47 < bkero> Just a recursive function
01:48 < kanzure> print_dependencies(depth=inf, deb)
01:48 < kanzure> yeah
01:48 < kanzure> but then what about finding cycles?
01:48 < kanzure> I have a find_all_cycles() method in skdb/graphtheory.py
01:48 < kanzure> hm
01:48 < bkero> Just yank cyclical dependency finding from apt
01:48 < kanzure> this isn't for software
01:48 < kanzure> oh, you mean from the sources
01:48 < kanzure> yeah I already have some code written for it
01:48 < kanzure> I'm just trying to think up some useful tools that would help me
01:48 < kanzure> help me interactively construct these graphs
01:48 < kanzure> so that it will yell at me if I do something stupid
01:49 < kanzure> or throw an exception if something stupid is happening
01:49 < kanzure> or if there is some sort of redundancy, or something.
01:49 < bkero> That's what exceptions are for
01:49 < kanzure> this is hard to explain
01:49 < bkero> katsmeow-afk: What do you do?
01:49 < katsmeow-afk> nothing
01:50 < bkero> Do you want to do anything?
01:50 < katsmeow-afk> yes
01:50 < bkero> What would you like to do?
01:50 < katsmeow-afk> do well what i do
01:50 < katsmeow-afk> do more of it
01:51 < katsmeow-afk> get paid in some way for doing it
01:51 < kanzure> sounds like a recipe for disaster
01:51 < bkero> You want to refine your ability to do nothing?
01:51 < katsmeow-afk> praps i did not understand the question
01:51 < ybit> katsmeow-afk welds
01:51 < ybit> from what i gather, and so do you bkero 
01:51 < katsmeow-afk> yet, i do not get paid for welding
01:52  * ybit is sleepy
01:52 < ybit> too much emacs for one day, time for bed
01:52 < bkero> I've done a bit of welding
01:52  * ybit waves goodnight
01:52 < bkero> Goodnight ybit.
01:52 < katsmeow-afk> gnite ybit
01:53 < katsmeow-afk> i do what's doc'd on my webpages, and more
01:53 < bkero> I do a lot of things, welding happens to be one of them.  I don't have a traditional welder, which is often problematic.
01:53 < bkero> People are very shy of my welder, and often tell me that they feel like it is going to kill them just by being near it.
01:53 < katsmeow-afk> i removed some things from the website, like the pcb driller
01:54 < bkero> Drilling holes in PCB?  Why?
01:54 < katsmeow-afk> for thru-hole components
01:54 < bkero> Er, I understand why
01:54 < bkero> But why remove it?
01:55 < katsmeow-afk> i feel i was intensely ridiculed about it, especially the use of flex shaft couplings and "pink" string
01:56 < katsmeow-afk> i also destroyed the driller frame
01:56 < bkero> Didn't realize a PCB could be that tough on a driller.
01:56 < katsmeow-afk> cutting torch is
01:57 < bkero> True
01:57 < katsmeow-afk> seems, according to everyone who saw the pics, pink string invalidaed the entire copncept of a working pcb driller
01:57 < bkero> :/  That's their loss.
01:58 < katsmeow-afk> i could not justify to them the project, so i trashed it
01:58 < katsmeow-afk> no, there's more of them than me
01:59 -!- Overand|Bitchy is now known as Overand
01:59 < bkero> People online will find anything to bitch about :/
02:00 < bkero> A PCB driller sounds useful to me, regardless of the color of string you uesd.
02:01 < katsmeow-afk> i thought so also
02:01 < bkero> I'm always looking to build new tools for myself. :)
02:02 < katsmeow-afk> if i build another on the boat, i won't be putting pics online of it
02:02 < bkero> There's a boat involved? :)
02:02 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, it goes behind the pics of the bow i mentioned to fenn
02:03  * bkero scrolls back
02:05 < bkero> I see them now
02:06 < bkero> That's some intricate welding work!
02:06 < bkero> Much better than mine.
02:06 < katsmeow-afk> use real welding rods :-)
02:06 < bkero> Welding rods?  Hell, I don't even have real electrodes!
02:07 < bkero> Or welding cable.  It's jumper cables, a C-clamp, and vice grips.
02:08 < katsmeow-afk> i wouldn't build such a boat without welding rods, i wouldn't trust the welds in the open ocean
02:08 < bkero> I can't get a very good sense of scale from those pictures, how big is that bow?
02:09 < katsmeow-afk> 11.5ft long, 46inches diameter/tall
02:09 < CIA-73> djangit: Meredith L. Patterson master * r77d1d6e / templates/view.html : view.html not prettyprinted but much better now - http://bit.ly/xxobf
02:09 < genehacker> huh?
02:09 < genehacker> what's CIA and why is Meredith using it
02:09 < bkero> Damn, that's bigger than anything I've made.
02:10 < bkero> genehacker: CIA reports code commits
02:10  * maradydd made a small commit
02:10 < katsmeow-afk> well, back up using the menu to the little boat,, which i can't launch anymore
02:10 < maradydd> it's early.
02:11 < kanzure> hey maradydd 
02:12 < maradydd> mornin
02:12  * maradydd deliberates between staggering out to look for caffeine or just going back to bed
02:12 < genehacker> I am fully awake
02:12 < kanzure> caffeine in bed is better
02:12 < genehacker> but I shouldn't be
02:12 < maradydd> nngh
02:12 < maradydd> that means making coffee
02:12 < genehacker> do you mean HNNNNNNNNGGG?
02:12 < kanzure> bah
02:13 < maradydd> and our sink is totally lame and always clogs
02:13  * maradydd needs a compost pile and a hose
02:13 < genehacker> my circadian is desynchronized
02:13 < kanzure> maradydd: so we posted some stuff to skdb btw. feel free to clone or pull from http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb.git/
02:13 < bkero> The sink in our hacker space is unusable. :/  Someone decided to pour a bunch of paint down it without water, so it's completely backed up.
02:13 < maradydd> what is skdb anyway?
02:13 < maradydd> bkero: oh, lame :( acrylic?
02:13 < kanzure> maradydd: an open source hardware management system
02:13 < bkero> maradydd: latex
02:13 < kanzure> maradydd: it's "apt-get for real stuff"
02:14  * katsmeow-afk waves gnites
02:14 < kanzure> maradydd: you should check out the code. in particular check out skdb/skdb.py and skdb/processes.yaml I guess
02:14 < maradydd> bkero: ugh. :( that's pretty much "replace the trap" right there
02:14 < genehacker> katsmeowafk gonna sail to New Zealand?
02:14 < katsmeow-afk> i wish
02:14 < bkero> maradydd: We don't know how far it went in either :(
02:14 < genehacker> or somewhere else if things get bad?
02:14 < bkero> But I'm going to have to put on my plumbing hat tomorrow.
02:14 < genehacker> does it have an M or L on it?
02:15 < kanzure> maradydd: so think of it as a tool for DIY hardware- tracking dependencies or requirements for which tools are required to build which other tools; assembly instructions; alternative ways to implement it.
02:15 < maradydd> kanzure: mk. at some point it would be cool if you could comment urls.py (or something...) with a representation of what the layout of stuff that djangit is supposed to display looks like
02:15 < kanzure> layout stuff?
02:15 < kanzure> what?
02:15 < maradydd> layout *of* stuff
02:15 < maradydd> tree diagram
02:15 < kanzure> oh
02:15 < kanzure> well there is no tree
02:15 < maradydd> ie when i click on a folder from the home view, what view should i see
02:16 < maradydd> yes
02:16 < maradydd> there is
02:16 < maradydd> it's just in your head and not in the docs :P
02:16 < kanzure> nope, the tree is the file tree in the repo
02:16 < maradydd> when i click on history, what should i see, when i click on actions, what should i see, when i click on a filename, what should i see
02:16 < kanzure> and then every file has a / (view) and a /history and /archive and /edit
02:16 < kanzure> okay
02:16 < maradydd> ok so *what do those look like*
02:16 < kanzure> yes then, that should be done
02:16 < kanzure> oh wait
02:16 < maradydd> what data should they contain
02:16 < kanzure> maradydd: try this: http://adl.serveftp.org:4567/
02:17 < kanzure> ah it doesn't load
02:17 < kanzure> fooey
02:17 < kanzure> well anyway, it's git-wiki
02:17 < kanzure> djangit is a copy of git-wiki
02:17 < kanzure> git-wiki is written in ruby on rails
02:17 < kanzure> but I find it unmaintainable
02:17 < maradydd> oh, ok then
02:17 < kanzure> git-wiki is mostly fully implemented.
02:17 < kanzure> so if you go find it and download it from github, you'll get a pretty good idea of wtf is supposed to be going on
02:18 < maradydd> we can rip off their presentation, that's fine
02:18 < kanzure> yep that's what I've been doing :)
02:18 < kanzure> HTML/CSS sucks
02:18 < maradydd> yeh
02:18 < maradydd> make things skinnable
02:19 < maradydd> sigh. i think i'm awake
02:19 < kanzure> so sorry
02:19  * maradydd shakes fist at husband
02:19 < maradydd> what does he think he's doing, calling me at 8am
02:19 < maradydd> on a sunday
02:20 < maradydd> kanzure: get me a redbull
02:20 < kanzure> wah
02:20 < kanzure> I only fetch beers
02:20 < maradydd> kanzure: sudo get me a redbull
02:20 < kanzure> and even then, only for me.
02:22 < genehacker> we can't get you a redbull
02:22 < maradydd> see, that's how you know skdb will really have made it
02:22 < genehacker> we can give you instructions on how to make it though
02:22 < genehacker> step one get water
02:22 < genehacker> get co2
02:22 < maradydd> when i can have it apt-get me a redbull
02:23 < genehacker> cool water to 69 degrees [ERROR VARIABLE UNIT NOT FOUND]
02:23 < maradydd> i mean we can start with coffee
02:23 < genehacker> bubble co2 through water
02:24  * maradydd intends to finish wiring the glove today
02:24 < genehacker> add red bull syrup to carbonated water
02:24 < bkero> Speaking of xkcd...One of the girls in the programmer pen drew this the other day: http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs194.snc1/6533_128702625217_739175217_3516978_7569090_n.jpg
02:24 < genehacker> oh it's you
02:24 < genehacker> didn't realize you ever came in here
02:25 < maradydd> oh, well done
02:25 < genehacker> though you might use bacteria to make the caffeine and taurine
02:26 < kanzure> I'm secretly asleep right now
02:26 < kanzure> but yes, apt-get me food 
02:26 < kanzure> apt-gimme food
02:26 < genehacker> ok would you like it delievered via ICBM?
02:27 < maradydd> kanzure: there's potential to tap into local distribution networks
02:27  * bkero has bacon+gouda pizza in the fridge.
02:27 < maradydd> in sf i frequently satisfied my hunger via eat24hours.com
02:27 < bkero> kanzure: If you fly up to Oregon, I will give you free food.
02:27 < maradydd> there's a similar site here in leuven but it's in dutch :(
02:27 < kanzure> maradydd: yep
02:27 < genehacker> SUCH WEBSITES EXISTS?
02:27 < maradydd> i ordered chicken penne and prawns in tomato cream sauce
02:27 < maradydd> credit card transaction
02:28 < bkero> Google bought all it's employees dinner every Friday.  It was very nice, I'd just go to some web site, order whatever I wanted, and work would pick itup.
02:28 < maradydd> what the world needs is a microformat for ordering food
02:28 < bkero> maradydd: That sounds amazing, I want some.
02:28 < maradydd> bkero: the chicken penne was nothing to write home about but the prawns were fabulous
02:29 < maradydd> i soaked up all the remaining tomato cream sauce with garlic bread and ate it
02:29 < genehacker> well the problem is that those in the restaurant business aren't really that interested in formats
02:29 < genehacker> it would be hard to force them to adopt one
02:29 < bkero> Yea, mostly I was mesmerized by the prospect of a tomato cream sauce.
02:30 < maradydd> bkero: not that hard to make -- you know how to make an alfredo sauce?
02:30 < bkero> I make alfredo sauce all the time.
02:30 < maradydd> genehacker: yeah, i'm thinking way ahead to the future
02:30 < bkero> Just tomato+alfredo?
02:30 < splicer> have you considered the possibility to just let third world kids do the manufacturing?
02:30 < maradydd> genehacker: the food-ordering websites i've seen invariably have a little self-updating javascript window totting up what you've ordered
02:31 < kanzure> splicer: why make people do it
02:31 < splicer> cause it can be done now
02:31 < splicer> + simple
02:31 < maradydd> bkero: fundamentally, yes. it's a good sauce base. when i make it myself i'll sometimes throw in a shot of booze and let it cook off
02:31 < maradydd> bkero: vodka in particular
02:31 < splicer> just get people to maufacture the kids
02:31 < bkero> I swung by the farmers market today and picked up milk, butter, honey, green peppers, salmon, red+white onions, asian cucumbers, cabbage, and 2 pints of blueberries :)
02:31 < genehacker> well the best place to force adoption would be silicon valley due to the high density of people who'd use it
02:32 < genehacker> I had insta-meal yakisoba
02:32 < genehacker> it was good
02:32 < bkero> maradydd: Do you think rum would work?  I just have some white rum about.
02:32 < maradydd> genehacker: you don't "force" adoption, you turn someone on to the idea, then show why it's useful
02:32 < genehacker> that's what I mean
02:32 < maradydd> bkero: oh, white rum would be very nice. some spicy peppers too.
02:32 < maradydd> genehacker: the ultimate goal being for me to be able to apt-get a cheeseburger at 2am anywhere in the world
02:32 < genehacker> I am considering making a robot to make ramen and the sort
02:32 < maradydd> over time you make it location aware
02:32 < maradydd> and so on
02:32 < bkero> These are green peppers, not very spicy at all :(.  I just have very spicy curry.  I'd have to go settle with safeway spicy peppers.
02:32 < genehacker> that is a noble goal
02:32 < genehacker> I support you
02:33 < bkero> genehacker: japan already beat you to that
02:33  * maradydd is a simple soul, really
02:33 < maradydd> bkero: cayenne powder?
02:33 < bkero> I suppose I do have some of that somewhere
02:33  * bkero just moved to new apartment.
02:33 < maradydd> ah, exciting
02:33 -!- genehacker is now known as genehacker_light
02:33  * maradydd 's spousal unit is packing up the old apartment
02:33 < bkero> I'm supposed to be in Germany right now, but I passed that opportunity up to move my belongings 5 blocks away from my last apartment.
02:34 < maradydd> what's in germany?
02:34 < genehacker_light> btw how do you do diybio in an apartment?
02:34 < bkero> phpBB is having their annual get-together.
02:34 < maradydd> genehacker_light: cleanly.
02:34 < bkero> They invited me to go since I'm their sysadmin, but I declined.
02:34 < genehacker_light> could one do small scale distilling in an apartment?
02:34 < bkero> genehacker_light: I have a 2bdrm, with one bedroom sealed, air filtered, monitored :)
02:35 < maradydd> sure, just don't blow shit up
02:35 < bkero> Yea, but distilling is illegal :(
02:35 < genehacker_light> not alcohol
02:35 < genehacker_light> small scale
02:35 < genehacker_light> production of pure chemicals necessary for DNA synthesis
02:35 < maradydd> i know some guys that make beer in their downstairs shower
02:35 < maradydd> another guy and his wife make beer in their guest bathroom
02:35 < bkero> Hehe
02:35 < bkero> I make beer in my closet.
02:36 < genehacker_light> some of the stuff I want to do involves phosgene gas
02:36 < genehacker_light> which scares me
02:36 < splicer> distilling can smell too
02:36 < bkero> Everybody in Oregon brews their own beer. :)
02:36 < genehacker_light> a lot
02:37 < genehacker_light> brb going to the darkside
02:37 < bkero> ...the force?
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02:38 < bkero> maradydd: I do have to give you kudos.  I've never heard a lady even mention microformats, let alone bring up such an epic idea as microformats for food ordering.
02:39 < splicer> a lady even ;)
02:39 < maradydd> as i said, i am a simple being. i want simple things, like 2am cheeseburgers. :P
02:40  * bkero has eaten too much junk food.  Right now I'll settle for 12:37AM sugar snap peas.
02:40 < maradydd> well, it's 9:30am, so that means breakfast
02:41 < maradydd> and the bakery people are on vacation this week, so i get to explore and find out what's open
02:41 < bkero> Oh, damn.  You must be over in Europeland
02:41 < maradydd> yup
02:41  * bkero wants to visit.
02:41 -!- genehacker_darks [n=noko@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:41 < bkero> I've got a lot of old high school friends in Stockholm and Oslo.
02:41 < genehacker_darks> bkero not the darkside some far more evil
02:41 < genehacker_darks> vista
02:42 < bkero> genehacker_darks: kill yourself
02:42  * maradydd doesn't live particularly close to scandinavia, but belgium's nice
02:42 < maradydd> we have the best beer
02:42 -!- genehacker_darks is now known as genehacker_dark
02:42 < bkero> That's a heavily contested title. :)
02:42 < maradydd> no, really, we do. :)
02:42  * splicer lives in scandinavia
02:42 < genehacker_dark> bkero, can't get my cad program to work in linux
02:43 < bkero> :(
02:43 < bkero> maradydd: What kind of Belgian beer should I try?
02:44 < maradydd> depends. what kind of beers you like usually?
02:44 < maradydd> ambers, lagers, pilsners...
02:44 < genehacker_dark> :(
02:44 < bkero> Hoppy with a full head, usually a lager.
02:45 < bkero> I'm really into a good Bock though.
02:45 < maradydd> hopus, if you can find it
02:45 < maradydd> any trappist dubbel or tripel
02:45 < maradydd> duvel's probably not that hard to find
02:45 < maradydd> though i particularly love kasteelbier donkel
02:46 < genehacker_dark> 	laughs manically
02:46 < bkero> The only Bocks I get out here are an Aventinus Eisbock, and a Rogue Dead Guy.
02:46  * bkero considers which store would have a good selection of belgian beer.
02:46  * maradydd misses shiner bock
02:46 < genehacker_dark> ugh wrong command
02:47 < bkero> What's shiner bock?
02:47 < maradydd> a bock from texas
02:47 < maradydd> they make it near where i grew up
02:48  * bkero spent a lot of time in McAllen
02:48 < maradydd> i'm sorry :(
02:48 < bkero> Friends ran a business out of Renosa
02:48 < bkero> Went across the border every day to go to work
02:48 < genehacker_dark> texas?
02:48 < bkero> Only white people on the entire block.
02:49 < bkero> Aye
02:49 < genehacker_dark> that's where kanzure, fenn, and I am
02:49 < bkero> I'm in Oregon.  It's not as hot here.
02:49  * maradydd grew up in houston
02:50 < bkero> My ex girlfriend is on the road right now traveling through Tennessee on her way to Houston.
02:50 < bkero> She's visiting an aunt who lives there.
02:50 < genehacker_dark> speaking of houston:
02:50 < genehacker_dark> http://www.huliq.com/1/81975/experts-say-houston-dome-may-help-environment
02:54 < maradydd> huh. yes, rain is a very good question
02:54 < maradydd> ok bbiab
02:56 < genehacker_dark> it requires blimps to make it...
02:56 < genehacker_dark> rather impractical
03:00 < splicer> 1950ies sci fi
03:01 < splicer> why not rekindle project orion and send it to space
03:02 < genehacker_dark> why?
03:02 < genehacker_dark> fallout
03:03 < genehacker_dark> that's why
03:03 < splicer> no hurricanes
03:03 < genehacker_dark> probability of some of the crew dying during take off
03:03 < splicer> + in space no one can hear you file share
03:03 < genehacker_dark> yeah
03:03 < genehacker_dark> but getting the plutonium is hard
03:03 < kanzure> make it yourself
03:04 < kanzure> nucleosynthesis
03:04 < genehacker_dark> building the plutonium implosion type bomb is hard
03:04 < genehacker_dark> from U-238 using neutron bombardment
03:04 < genehacker_dark> hmmm...
03:04 < genehacker_dark> quite interesting
03:04 < genehacker_dark> fusion could be easier
03:05 < genehacker_dark> you saw that plasmak stuff, right kanzure?
03:05 < splicer> i don't think the boms are a problem... people were putting bombs on everything already in the 50:ies
03:06 < genehacker_dark> even in houses?
03:06 < genehacker_dark> oh wait..
03:06 < maradydd> so bryan
03:06 < splicer> probably.. if not you could always leave a back pack bomb there
03:06 < genehacker_dark> plasmak people started in a garage
03:06 < maradydd> part of what i see djangit being particularly useful for is roy fielding's RESTful future
03:06 < genehacker_dark> but moved out when they were too successful
03:07 < maradydd> because django exposes data stores to the RESTful web
03:07 < genehacker_dark> and the braking radiation
03:07 < maradydd> and everything in a git repo is uniquely addressbale
03:07 < maradydd> *addressable
03:07 < maradydd> death before dishonour, nothing before caffeine
03:07 < genehacker_dark> ooops
03:08 < genehacker_dark> I read the wrong number, guess this motor I'm designing will work afterall
03:08 < maradydd> there should, for instance, be inventory tracking software that my local electronics store uses to display their entire stock inventory to the internet
03:09 < maradydd> also i should get a pony
03:11 < genehacker_dark> don't get one of those miniature ones, they weren't selected for niceness in the 50s
03:11 < genehacker_dark> IE they bite
03:11 < bkero> maradydd: we just use digikey :)
03:12 < genehacker_dark> bkero
03:12 < maradydd> digikey should be restful too :P
03:12 < genehacker_dark> I have a local electronics store that ROCKS
03:13 < genehacker_dark> but alas the only problem is that you have to check if they have parts
03:13 < kanzure> octopart.org shouldn't suck so much
03:13 < bkero> Yea
03:13 < genehacker_dark> meredith has a point there
03:13 < bkero> Octopart is about as good as it gets though
03:13 < kanzure> how could this be :(
03:13 < maradydd> eh, we'll fix it
03:13 < bkero> maradydd: Make a python API for it plz? :)
03:13 < bkero> Well, if it were restful you could just write some simple python objects around it, and all would be right in the universe.
03:13 < kanzure> right
03:14 < kanzure> but since this isn't the case
03:14 < maradydd> bkero: :( that's like making a python api for amazon :(
03:14 < maradydd> i mean yes someone did that but still
03:14 < kanzure> gah stop being interesting >:(
03:14 < kanzure> some of us have to pretend to sleep or something
03:14 < maradydd> physical objects are still very much in the proprietary inventory system world
03:14 < kanzure> maradydd: while it would be nice to have accesss to those databases,
03:14 < kanzure> I also want my own inventory system
03:14 < kanzure> this is what we'll be implementing at HQ
03:14 < maradydd> well, yeah
03:15 < maradydd> so do i
03:15 < maradydd> i have too much shit :P
03:15 < kanzure> er I guess you don't know about HQ
03:15  * maradydd priced out rfid bookplates not long ago
03:15 < kanzure> but anyway, we're getting an HQ apparently
03:15 < kanzure> yeah rfid would be a nice way to do it
03:15 < kanzure> another way would be the OCR barcode scanner method
03:15 < maradydd> for the low low price of around 5 grand i can rfid bookplate tag all my books
03:15 < genehacker_dark> HQ?
03:15 < kanzure> and just print out barcodes to throw at everything
03:15 < kanzure> genehacker_dark: yes
03:15 < kanzure> genehacker_dark: a warehouse up in LA
03:15 < genehacker_dark> you mean that warehouse?
03:15 < genehacker_dark> IN LA?
03:15 < kanzure> yes
03:15 < maradydd> mm true 2d barcodes probably easier
03:15 < genehacker_dark> you are going to live in LA?
03:16 < kanzure> maradydd: aren't rfid chips supposed to cost only pennies?
03:16 < genehacker_dark> what about AR codes?
03:16 < genehacker_dark> those tell orientation
03:16 < maradydd> kanzure: yeah about 50 of them
03:16 < bkero> Just use QR codes
03:16 < maradydd> between us, len and i probably have like 10k books
03:16 < kanzure> :)
03:16 < genehacker_dark> kanzure are you moving to LA?
03:16 < kanzure> genehacker_dark: probably
03:16 < genehacker_dark> damn
03:16 < maradydd> the only prob w/qr codes is that i can't ping for them
03:16 < genehacker_dark> I'm stuck here
03:17 < splicer> why keep books in the first place?
03:17 < kanzure> because we are packrats
03:17 < maradydd> with this many books, the "where is foo" problem becomes enormous
03:17 < maradydd> splicer: what kanzure said, also marginalia
03:17 < kanzure> "the fear of throwing things away"
03:17 < splicer> so scan it
03:17 < genehacker_dark> books have radiation shielding capabilities
03:17 < kanzure> splicer: do you know how long it takes to scan 10,000 books?
03:17 < genehacker_dark> books store information
03:17 < kanzure> what the fuck is wrong with you :p
03:18 < splicer> I know how long it takes to move them around
03:18 < splicer> and how much they weigh
03:18 < maradydd> i'll, uh, get right on that
03:18 < kanzure> haha
03:18 < kanzure> maradydd: faster!
03:18 < QuantumG> no, how long does it take to scan 10,000 books?
03:18 < kanzure> faster! do more work!
03:18 < maradydd> QuantumG: ask google
03:18 < kanzure> QuantumG: manually? a long time
03:18 < QuantumG> I'm asking you :)
03:18 < kanzure> if anyone has a book scanner device though, I'd like to use it.
03:18 < splicer> pay the orphans
03:18 < kanzure> manually I was averaging at 2 minutes per page
03:18 < maradydd> kanzure: my friend abe is building one
03:18 < genehacker_dark> how the heck did you get HQ and what's becoming of the Austin hackerspace?
03:18 < maradydd> with some kind of page turny thing
03:19 < kanzure> genehacker_dark: a story for another time
03:19 < genehacker_dark> ok 
03:19 < kanzure> maradydd: kickass. schematics?
03:19 < kanzure> wait, no
03:19 < kanzure> stop being interesting
03:19 < genehacker_dark> a robot
03:19  * kanzure goes for reals
03:20 < splicer> ...or you could copy 100' books from me or some kid in a few days, for 500$
03:20 < maradydd> splicer: i can copy 100+ books from bittorrent for free
03:20 < splicer> that's the point
03:20 < maradydd> but anyway, len gets headaches reading screens
03:20 < genehacker_dark> do you have THE GOLDEN BOOK OF CHEMISTRY EXPERIMENTS?
03:20 < maradydd> and besides someday i'm gonna build a huge library with ladders on wheels
03:20 < maradydd> genehacker_dark: as a pdf
03:21 < splicer> probably somewhere if it's been out
03:21 < genehacker_dark> ladders and wheels pah, why not robots and rails?
03:21 < maradydd> it can be a robotic ladder
03:21 < maradydd> i just want to be able to ride it around the room
03:21 < splicer> very 1800
03:21 < genehacker_dark> good point
03:21 < splicer> "I want to feel and smell the books"
03:22 < genehacker_dark> I NEED MORE POWER
03:22 < genehacker_dark> to run this gear generator
03:22 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r03a0bd809ab6 /pymates/pymates.py: notes to get it working later
03:23 < maradydd> kanzure: you don't look very asleep
03:23 < kanzure> sshh
03:23 < kanzure> ljflkfajf;ka
03:23 < genehacker_dark> kanzure haven't you sleep coded stuff before?
03:24 < kanzure> yeah :/
03:24 < kanzure> during my first semester of uni, it was particularly bad
03:24 < genehacker_dark> how is that possible?
03:24 < kanzure> because I would fall asleep at the terminal at the lab
03:24 < kanzure> but I would be writing out perl
03:24 < kanzure> and so it was just fucking terrible code
03:24 < kanzure> because I couldn't keep a line of thought straight for more than a few seconds
03:24 < maradydd> my job today is to make sense of sleepcoded haskell
03:24 < genehacker_dark> hey how much memory does that box of yours have?
03:24 < kanzure> and I was doing some nasty 20-something table queries in MySQL
03:24 < genehacker_dark> could you run matlab on it?
03:24 < maradydd> actually i think it might be drunk sleepcoded haskell at that
03:25 < kanzure> I'm surprised drunk+haskell works together.
03:25 < kanzure> I'm surprised haskell works at all.
03:25 < maradydd> chris++ is inhuman
03:25 < kanzure> transhuman?
03:25 < splicer> (hehe)
03:25 < maradydd> idk, man, he's a machine
03:26 < maradydd> he sysadmins at google for 10+ hours a day, comes home, starts drinking, starts coding
03:26 < genehacker_dark> he probably takes anti-sleep meds
03:26 < kanzure> meh
03:26 < maradydd> nah he's canadian
03:26 < maradydd> they have fucked up circadian cycles
03:26 < genehacker_dark> indeed
03:27 < genehacker_dark> or maybe he's from greenland
03:27 < genehacker_dark> I hear they're like that too
03:27 < maradydd> i'm gonna be useless come wintertime
03:27 < maradydd> it's gonna get dark at like 4 in the afternoon and imma be like "right, time to sleep!"
03:27 < genehacker_dark> the sun has no dominion over me
03:27 < splicer> you're experienced snow before?
03:28  * maradydd lived in iowa for 5 years
03:28 < maradydd> so, yes
03:28 < maradydd> we had snow here in jan and early feb
03:28 < maradydd> stayed on the ground for a few days even
03:28 < splicer> i knew this girl whos mother was swedish and her father greek.... so she grew up in greece
03:29 < bkero> <3 greece
03:29 < splicer> ... and she spoke perfect swedish... only in wintertime if you walked with her.. she fell over all the time
03:29 < maradydd> obtw splicer there's a small chance i might be in stockholm in august
03:29 < splicer> cool
03:29 < splicer> I'm not there.. i'm about 10hrs north
03:30 < splicer> stockholm is nice... especially in the summer
03:31 < splicer> it's water
03:31 < maradydd> o right, sweden's like california, tall
03:32 < splicer> yeah, probably more sparsely populated though
03:32 < splicer> what would you be doing in stockholm?
03:33 < maradydd> visiting my friends mikael and susanne
03:33 < splicer> ...those are swedish names
03:33 < maradydd> vejdemo-johansson
03:34 < splicer> with friends is the absolutely best way to see it
03:34 < maradydd> r0x0r
03:34 < maradydd> well, i hope it happens
03:34 < splicer> you'll like it a lot I think
03:36 < genehacker_dark> odd
03:36 < genehacker_dark> a program says that every iteration of a file name already exiost
03:37 < genehacker_dark> matlab died
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04:33 < maradydd> heh. writing noop is totally the protocol implementor's hello world
04:34 < maradydd> now on to the real work -_-
04:52 < genehacker_dark> hey could somebody write me a format for formating stuff
04:53 < genehacker_dark> IE a format for writting programs that take in parameters and output parts
04:53 < genehacker_dark> say part is a rolamite bearing
04:54 < genehacker_dark> I write code that gives parameters and generates a rolamite bearing from those parameters
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07:27 < maradydd> has anyone made nanoscale LEDs?
07:42 < genehacker_dark> quantum wells?
07:42 < genehacker_dark> I think so
07:42 < genehacker_dark> why?
07:43 < genehacker_dark> do you want to make a phased array that works in the visible spectrum?
07:43 < genehacker_dark> for making THE ULTIMATE VIEWING EXPERIENCE?
07:46 < genehacker_dark> http://paulgazis.com/Humor/Vikings.htm
07:46 < genehacker_dark> lol
07:53 < maradydd> shit yo
07:54 < maradydd> viral assembly of quantum dots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_dot#Viral_assembly
07:54 < genehacker_dark> speaking of practical biology
07:55 < genehacker_dark> google cuttlefish superconductor
07:55 < maradydd> wtf
07:55 < genehacker_dark> you can make a lightweight superconductor with a critical current that is quite high
07:56 < genehacker_dark> from cuttlebone treated with yttrium or something like that
07:56 < maradydd> omg hilarious
07:56 < genehacker_dark> because cuttlebone is a bit more structured than sintered powder
07:57 < genehacker_dark> hilarious?
07:57 < maradydd> lololol
07:57 < maradydd> i love it when shit like that happens
07:57 < maradydd> so now the question is
07:57 < maradydd> can we do something like laser sinter powder to make a cuttlebone analogue
07:57 < genehacker_dark> don't think so
07:58 < genehacker_dark> cuttle bone is like crystalline
07:58 < maradydd> me and my friend were trying to figure out if we could sinter powdercoating material with a laser from a cd-rom drive
07:58 < genehacker_dark> sintering is ugh
07:58 < genehacker_dark> sintering is take some powder heat it up
07:58 < maradydd> yeah i guess there's the oxidation problem
07:58 < genehacker_dark> powder isn't a form that metal likes to be in
07:58 < genehacker_dark> especially when metal gets hot
07:58 < maradydd> yeah yeah but seriously, given time, we could be doing this with 325nm lasers
07:59 < maradydd> and tiny things cool fast
07:59 < genehacker_dark> so metal or whatever joins with other grains around it to reduce surface area
07:59 < maradydd> right
07:59 < genehacker_dark> but DIY SLS would be cool
08:00 < genehacker_dark> the machines at my uni cost $25 per inch
08:00 < maradydd> they're gonna be workin on it in houston
08:00 < maradydd> maybe here in brussels too
08:00 < genehacker_dark> huh?
08:00 < genehacker_dark> working on what?
08:01 < maradydd> the DIY SLS machine
08:01 < genehacker_dark> but the thing about cuttle bone is it's something like a single crystal that has a good structure or something like that
08:02 < genehacker_dark> if we could grow cuttle bone in different shapes it might be useful
08:02 < genehacker_dark> oh
08:02 < genehacker_dark> cool
08:02 < genehacker_dark> SLS was invented not to far from where I am
08:02 < maradydd> yeah so my question is can we laser sinter a structure that provides the same or similar support that the cuttlebone structure provides, for the yttrium metal stuff
08:02 < genehacker_dark> probably not
08:02 < maradydd> and then cut that into different shapes
08:02 < fenn> i witnessed the "pink string incident" and i must say katsmeow-afk took it completely out of proportion
08:03 < genehacker_dark> ???
08:03 < maradydd> *shrug* with 325nm precision i think you could get pretty fuckin close
08:03 < fenn> commentary on something hours ago
08:03 < genehacker_dark> cuttle bone is like near molecularly precise
08:03 < genehacker_dark> I think
08:04 < maradydd> that's fine, make an approximation
08:04 < genehacker_dark> 325 nm precision?
08:04 < maradydd> think like a hacker dude
08:04 < genehacker_dark> plus how do you sinter calcium carbonate?
08:04 < maradydd> how wide are the gaps
08:04 < maradydd> you don't need calcium carbonate if you can find something with similar thermal and adherent properties
08:04 < maradydd> and there are a LOT of plastics out there
08:05 < genehacker_dark> oh I was thinking about making superconductors
08:05 < maradydd> so am i
08:05 < maradydd> i read the article
08:06 < maradydd> the cuttlebone provides a *structure*
08:06 < genehacker_dark> cuttle bone is calcium carbonate
08:06 < maradydd> they have to dope first and then heat it up to melt the metal all through it
08:06 < maradydd> right
08:06 < maradydd> a nonconductor
08:06 < genehacker_dark> superconducter is made from calcium carbon, yttrium, and other stuff
08:07 < maradydd> so, sinter something out of plastic, *another nonconductor*, that can take 900 degrees of heat so that they can melt the yttrium barium copper oxide precursors and make the reaction happen
08:08 < maradydd> you have conductors, nonconductors, and semiconductors. calcium carbonate is a nonconductor. so is plastic. they are electrically equivalent.
08:08 < maradydd> i suppose if it's thin enough plastic can be a dielectric, but you could melt it out with a solvent and then repack with ceramic. i don't know, i'm not a materials scientist. *throws up hands*
08:09 < genehacker_dark> calcium carbonate might provide a crystal structure for the YBCuO to nucleate on
08:10 < maradydd> well, if that's the case, then i guess my idea's fucked :P
08:10 < maradydd> but that's the kind of thing the authors of the paper should be able to answer, neh?
08:10 < maradydd> c'mon man
08:10 < maradydd> think like it's the 18th century
08:10 < genehacker_dark> well I think I need to read the paper
08:10 < genehacker_dark> in that case
08:10 < maradydd> somebody just made something cool
08:10 < maradydd> figure out how to cast a mold of it and make more of them!
08:10 < maradydd> sheesh
08:10 < genehacker_dark> cuttlefish grow cuttlebone
08:11 < maradydd> i mean, fuck, for that matter, grow cuttlebone in a vat if you absolutely must have only the finest of cuttlebone
08:11 < genehacker_dark> yeah that's what I'm hitting at
08:11 < maradydd> but there are going to be applications for varying grades of superconductor
08:11 < maradydd> so if you can get close enough with an alternate route and the alternate route turns out to be cheaper, do that
08:12 < maradydd> *shrug* we shall see
08:12 < maradydd> i just like seeing potential applications of things that people i know are working on
08:12 < genehacker_dark> the point with the cuttlebone is that you might be able to useful things with biology
08:12 < maradydd> i thought barium was Ba
08:12 < maradydd> B is boron
08:13 < genehacker_dark> YBCO is an lazy abbrevaition people use
08:13 < maradydd> ah
08:13 < maradydd> the Cu threw me
08:13 < genehacker_dark> ok
08:13 < genehacker_dark> gonna see if I can't get this paper
08:15 < genehacker_dark> paper GET
08:16 < maradydd> schweet, send it to me?
08:17 < genehacker_dark> sure
08:18 < genehacker_dark> it doesn't have nasty "I DOWNLOADED THIS, I'M EVIL" tags
08:18 < genehacker_dark> where to?
08:18 < genehacker_dark> might work
08:18 < genehacker_dark> if the plastic doesn't melt at 900 C
08:20 < genehacker_dark> doesn't really say much about the crystal structure helping
08:21 < genehacker_dark> http://superconductors.org/News.htm
08:22 < genehacker_dark> combine it with this guys stuff and maybe room temperature superconductors are possible
08:22 < genehacker_dark> all those high temperature superconductors he makes are minority phases 
08:22 < genehacker_dark> meaning a tiny grain superconducts at high temperatures but not the whole thing
08:24 < genehacker_dark> yup plastic idea might just work
08:25 < genehacker_dark> wait do I transfer this to you via IRC?
08:31 < fenn> genehacker_dark: http://fennetic.net/irc/The_Golden_Book_of_Chemistry_Experiments_-_R._Brent_WW.pdf
08:32 -!- Smari [n=spm@dsl-149-118-111.hive.is] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:34 < fenn> good morning my atlantean friend
08:34 < fenn> how are the whales and porpoises
08:34 < genehacker_dark> damn the sun
08:35 < genehacker_dark> fine if you ask me
08:35 < Smari> morning my texan buddy.
08:35 < fenn> genehacker_dark: you're taking this goth thing way too seriously
08:35 < genehacker_dark> no I'm on winblows
08:35 < genehacker_dark> that's why I'm dark
08:36 < fenn> self-induced suffering, sounds goth to me
08:36 < genehacker_dark> besides I don't live in atlantis, I live in Rapture
08:36 -!- genehacker_dark is now known as genehacker_vista
08:36 < Smari> the whales and porpoises are sunbathing on the towels, the puffins are happily splashing in the wave pools, the kittens are on lifeguard duty.
08:36 < Smari> genehacker_vista, he meant me. :P
08:37 < genehacker_vista> ah
08:37 < genehacker_vista> oops
08:37 < genehacker_vista> kanzure awake?
08:37 < fenn> no
08:37 < genehacker_vista> fenn mind explaining how you got a HQ in LA?
08:37 < Smari> I live fairly close to Atlantis. It's about three hours from here by boat.
08:37 < Smari> I'm actually going there later.
08:37 < fenn> genehacker_vista: honestly i dont understand it myself
08:38 < fenn> genehacker_vista: anyway it's not a done deal; we still have to rationalize the madness
08:38 < genehacker_vista> who's warehouse
08:38 < fenn> the warehouse doesn't exist/hasnt been selected i guess
08:38 < genehacker_vista> who's the backer to you hackers
08:39 < fenn> humanity+
08:39 < genehacker_vista> who exactly?
08:39 < genehacker_vista> the Marduk institute?
08:39 < fenn> huh?
08:39 < fenn> humanityplus.org/ 
08:39 < genehacker_vista> oh them
08:40 < genehacker_vista> one person or a bunch of people
08:40 < fenn> mostly alex lightman
08:40 < Smari> It's 13:37!
08:41 < Smari> I'm so late....
08:42 < genehacker_vista> by funding, how much?
08:42 < fenn> no idea
08:42 < genehacker_vista> should I consider going down there?
08:42 < fenn> seriously i dont know very much
08:43 < genehacker_vista> I'd really like to see instructions on how to make a cheap but capable DNA synthesizer
08:44 < fenn> how about the capillary tube + UV led
08:45 < genehacker_vista> ugh
08:45 < genehacker_vista> too slow
08:45 < fenn> picky picky
08:45 < genehacker_vista> microscope + DLP projector+ plumbing
08:45 < genehacker_vista> is what I'm thinking
08:45 < genehacker_vista> but we really need the chemicals first
08:46 < genehacker_vista> stuck on how to get the nucleotidase
08:46 < fenn> unwilling to learn organic chemistry
08:46 < genehacker_vista> I guess it might be possible to use it in it's impure form
08:46 < fenn> no, impure chemicals would just give you crap sequences
08:47 < genehacker_vista> fenn I need to digest DNA to make nucleosides
08:48 < genehacker_vista> then I need to seperate out these nucleosides and put protecting groups on them
08:50 < genehacker_vista> I have high hopes for this protein purifier kanzure's been talking about
08:50 < fenn> i dont
08:50 < genehacker_vista> if we could only get the MPTS
08:51 < fenn> if only.. you could get photolabile protected nucleotides
08:52 < genehacker_vista> nucleosides
08:52 < genehacker_vista> kanzure found how to make em
08:52 < genehacker_vista> protecting group is medium modo
08:52 < genehacker_vista> nucleoside might be hard modo
08:54 < fenn> can't you just buy nucleotides?
08:54 < genehacker_vista> whole process might end up being lunatic mode though
08:54 < genehacker_vista> buy? what is buy?
08:54 < fenn> how are you going to do PCR?
08:55 < fenn> you need NTP's
08:55 < genehacker_vista> ???
08:55 < fenn> going to make those too?
08:55 < genehacker_vista> what are those?
08:55 < fenn> oh come on
08:55 < genehacker_vista> ethidium bromide?
08:55 < fenn> nucleotide triphosphate
08:55 < genehacker_vista> oh
08:56 < genehacker_vista> I hope too
08:56 < maradydd> from salmon sperm?
08:56 < maradydd> that's how they do it in the industry
08:56 < fenn> you might want to learn some basic biology techniques while you're learning chemistry
08:56 < genehacker_vista> oh yes the nucleosides?
08:57 < genehacker_vista> they said salmon
08:57 < fenn> maradydd: please don't give him any more ideas
08:57 < maradydd> fenn: sry :(
08:57 < maradydd> i just thought it might be like uncle fester you know?
08:57 < genehacker_vista> I took an aquaculture class though
08:57 < maradydd> "start with a field of ergot"
08:57 < fenn> gene you saw the strawberry dna extraction right?
08:57 < genehacker_vista> salmon shouldn't be too hard to grow
08:57 < fenn> strawberries are easier to grow
08:58 < genehacker_vista> wait a second
08:59 < genehacker_vista> FENN THAT'S WHY I NEED FUCKING NUCLEOTIDASE
08:59 < maradydd> aldrich sells it
08:59 < genehacker_vista> I want to make it
08:59 < fenn> mung beans have it.. well, something like it
09:00 < genehacker_vista> it's in chicken muscle
09:00 < genehacker_vista> though are strawberries really a good DNA source
09:00 < maradydd> they're octoploid
09:00 < genehacker_vista> why not algae?
09:00 < fenn> because strawberries are bite-sized
09:01 < genehacker_vista> anyhow how do they make nucleoside triphosphate from nucleosides?
09:01 < maradydd> *shrug* dunno how much dna you extract from a gram of algae vs a gram of strawberries
09:01 < fenn> i'd say "and delicious" but after many years i realized i hate strawberries
09:01 < maradydd> fenn: in any case easy to buy in the grocery store
09:01 < genehacker_vista> algae is easy to grow
09:01 < maradydd> way easier than whacking off a salmon
09:01 < fenn> but not nearly as entertaining
09:02 < maradydd> heh
09:02 < genehacker_vista> so how is NTP made?
09:02 < maradydd> at idt, the bioinformatics and backend software dev groups got moved to a new building across from one of the university labs
09:02 < maradydd> the National Advanced Driving Simulator
09:03 < genehacker_vista> heh
09:03 < maradydd> for like the first two weeks all the guys were giggling about how they could look at the window and see NADS
09:03 < genehacker_vista> drive through DNA sequences?
09:04 < maradydd> hm. eventually i'm going to have to break down and find access to a mass spec or nmr machine
09:05 < genehacker_vista> why?
09:05 < maradydd> figuring out the efficiency of various diy DNA purification methods
09:05 < genehacker_vista> ahh
09:05 < genehacker_vista> umm...
09:06 < maradydd> comparing cost efficiency and shit like that
09:06 < maradydd> *shrug* i'll just have to find someone in chemistry, no big
09:06 < genehacker_vista> can't you do that with gel electrophoresis
09:06 < maradydd> that's one way, yes
09:06 < genehacker_vista> I mean DNA is like a big molecule and all
09:06 < maradydd> mass spec lets you measure how well it worked
09:06 < fenn> assuming you're not a total wingnut and can buy samples of pure nucleotides, you could compare with chromatography and absorption spectrometry, which are a bit easier to build at home
09:07 < maradydd> fenn: idt has a production facility here
09:07 < fenn> i always wanted to build a mass spec. though
09:07 < maradydd> i haven't worked for them in years but if i walk in the guy who runs the place will recognise me
09:07 < maradydd> we worked together in iowa
09:07 < maradydd> i had a mohawk back then. now my hair's purple. he'll remember me.
09:07 < fenn> that means you have to go to iowa to access some piece of lab equipment?
09:08 < maradydd> no, it means i have to walk a few kilometers south to idt-europe
09:08 < fenn> or is it like a 'oh while i'm here i should measure this'
09:08 < fenn> ok
09:08 < genehacker_vista> fenn theres is a reason I don't want to rely on sigma aldrich
09:08 < maradydd> so if i need some nucleotides, i can just ask
09:08 < maradydd> maybe use them to calibrate a home built absorption spectrometer
09:08 < genehacker_vista> the reason is that some people might want to regulate things
09:08 < maradydd> i've looked at those too
09:08 < genehacker_vista> to make things harder for us
09:08 < fenn> genehacker_vista: how about concentrating on the problems that actually exist instead of the problems that might exist
09:09 < maradydd> yup. right now, there are a lot of tools that people are going to need in order to be able to reliably do their own synth
09:09 < fenn> for example: you still dont have chemicals
09:09 < genehacker_vista> name a problem that exists
09:09 < genehacker_vista> I'm bored right now
09:09 < fenn> why are you awake?
09:09 < maradydd> people will need measuring equipment to measure the purity of the reagents they have made.
09:10 < maradydd> since you don't want to rely on aldrich for nucleotides, you want to make them yourself -- you're going to have to QA them
09:10 < fenn> maradydd: yeah i think diybio is really more about diy instrumentation at this point
09:10 < maradydd> so, QA equip is spensive. let's make cheaper QA gear.
09:10 < maradydd> fenn: yeah
09:10 < genehacker_vista> because my internal clock doesn't use a quartz crystal
09:10 < maradydd> 's what i'm workin on with the diy thermocycler
09:11 < genehacker_vista> did you see the light bulb thermocycler?
09:11 < maradydd> well, more properly, the generic embedded language framework for 8-bit subset-of-HTTP servers
09:11 < fenn> have you seen the idaho systems thermocycler?
09:11 < maradydd> that will drive the thermocycler over the network
09:11 < maradydd> i saw the one on instructables that was like $350 in parts
09:11 < fenn> er, idaho technology
09:11 < genehacker_vista> the lightbulb one was $25
09:11 < fenn> the lightbulb one needs a fan
09:11 < maradydd> the one on ibles is pimp as shit
09:12 < maradydd> but requires machine tools
09:12 < maradydd> that i don't know how to use :(
09:12 < genehacker_vista> I have machine tools
09:12 < maradydd> you have to mill an aluminum head so that you can put the heating element in the centre, six holes around that for tubes and one hole for a temp sensor
09:12 < genehacker_vista> err I'm a profession machinist
09:12 < fenn> the way the idaho tech thermocycler works is there's a light bulb that turns on and off, and a fan. you put the pcr mix in glass capillary tubes because they heat up and cool down fast. there's a temperature sensor in with the tubes that has the same thermal characteristics
09:12 < genehacker_vista> I can do that
09:13 < genehacker_vista> but others can't
09:13 < genehacker_vista> which is bad
09:13 < maradydd> fenn: hah, that sounds pretty damn simple.
09:13 < genehacker_vista> easybake PCR machine
09:13 < fenn> genehacker_vista: how is your access to machine tools less of a liability than your access to sigma aldrich?
09:13  * maradydd ponders what you could do with incandescent lightbulbs and PWM
09:13 < fenn> i think they just used a relay
09:13 < genehacker_vista> machine tools are free
09:13 < fenn> it would turn on and off about every five seconds or so
09:13 < genehacker_vista> aluminum is free
09:14 < maradydd> oh, wow
09:14 < maradydd> ok, slower than i thought :)
09:14 < genehacker_vista> scrap that is
09:14 < maradydd> that's ... pretty damn simple
09:14 < fenn> maradydd: just has to be under the thermal time constant
09:14 < genehacker_vista> yeah
09:14 < maradydd> ok, math for me to learn, thx
09:14 < fenn> it's just like electronics
09:14  * maradydd is pretty bad at anything analog :-/
09:15 < genehacker_vista> I like mechanical analog computers
09:15 < genehacker_vista> they are functions
09:15 < maradydd> but, i'll plow through it
09:16 < maradydd> but, in any case, i'm sure the idaho tech hardware can work with my firmware, given the right glue
09:16  * maradydd having said that now goes off to look for it :P
09:19 < genehacker_vista> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/113449444/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
09:19 < maradydd> oh halogen okay
09:19 < genehacker_vista> fenn is there another light bulb thermocycler than thisone?
09:20 < fenn> are you talking about the "$25 thermocycler"?
09:20 < fenn> stainless plant pot with holes drilled in it
09:21 < genehacker_vista> http://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/sci_jou/6/
09:21 < genehacker_vista> jup
09:22 < fenn> i gotta say i was less than impressed with their technical execution
09:22 < genehacker_vista> I'm sure you've heard of DNA world fenn?
09:22 < fenn> no
09:24 < genehacker_vista> RNA world
09:24 < fenn> the abiogenesis theory?
09:24 < genehacker_vista> where volcanoes act as thermocyclers
09:24 < fenn> something like that
09:24 < genehacker_vista> if a thermocycler can spontaneously occur in nature it shouldn't be rocket science to make it work
09:24 < genehacker_vista> so the plant pot approach should work
09:24 < fenn> well, the water bath approach works, the point is to make a reliable convenient quick cheap piece of lab equipment
09:24 < genehacker_vista> ERROR GRAMMAR CORE MALFUNCTION, PROCEEDING WITH SYSTEM REBOOT
09:24 < maradydd> yea fenn i think the glass capillary thing is a good idea
09:24 < maradydd> those are pretty easy to get iirc
09:24 < maradydd> med supplies
09:24 < genehacker_vista> for dna synth?
09:24 < genehacker_vista> bah
09:24 < genehacker_vista> it might take forever to synthesize anything fun!
09:25 < fenn> maradydd: i think it would work with regular mini thin wall microcentrifuge tubes too
09:25 < maradydd> fenn: right, they say it just takes longer
09:25 < genehacker_vista> where fun ~>600,000 bp
09:25 < genehacker_vista> like months
09:25 < maradydd> i'll see about setting something up when i get my gear back, i have a few bajillion of those tubes
09:25 < genehacker_vista> or I need to do the calculations
09:26 < maradydd> the nice thing about the machined aluminum head was the precision
09:26 < genehacker_vista> ???
09:26 < genehacker_vista> ugh I need sl
09:26 < maradydd> all the tube wells were equidistant from the heating element, as was the temp sensor
09:27  * maradydd does some parts shopping
09:28 < maradydd> fenn: http://www.instructables.com/id/Coffee-Cup-PCR-Thermocycler-costing-under-350/ has pics and bom
09:29 < fenn> i'd be hard pressed to spend $350 making a thermocycler
09:31 < kanzure> you get nucleotidase from chicken gizzard
09:31 < maradydd> im trying to figure out what's so expensive about it
09:31 < maradydd> 6061 Aluminum Rod 1.5" round stock about 5" in length
09:31 < maradydd> Cartridge heater 1" length, 1/4" diam 80W
09:31 < maradydd> Temperature controller Omega.com CN8282-R1R2C2
09:31 < maradydd> and a 40mm cooling fan
09:32 < kanzure> how could you not know what ddNTPs are, genehacker_vista?
09:33 < genehacker_vista> I forgot
09:33 < genehacker_vista> how does seperate nucleotidase from chicken gizzard
09:33 < fenn> instructable brought to you by "center for parabiotics research"
09:33 < genehacker_vista> how do you make ddNTPs
09:34 < fenn> organic synthesis techniques is a sure bet
09:34 < genehacker_vista> how?
09:34 < kanzure> idt-europe is not diy and you're losing points, maradydd
09:34 < genehacker_vista> however kanzure she can do nmr for us
09:35 < genehacker_vista> think of it as making ballistic tables for us
09:35 < maradydd> kanzure: if i'm using them to calibrate a diy spectrometer i don't care where they come from as long as their purity is guaranteed
09:35 < maradydd> chicken and egg problem solved
09:36 < genehacker_vista> you know I've heard they use water or tonic water to calibrate things like taht
09:36 < kanzure> heh coffee cop PCR thermocycler :)
09:36 < genehacker_vista> our spectrophotometer calibrates itself with deionized water
09:37 < kanzure> genehacker_vista: we already have someone who can do NMR for us.
09:37 < genehacker_vista> looks expensive
09:37 < genehacker_vista> who?
09:37 < kanzure> some guy from Texas State
09:37 < fenn> dan millican or one of the fifty labs you have access to on campus
09:37 < genehacker_vista> and how'd you get H+ to fund you
09:37 < kanzure> mind control
09:37 < genehacker_vista> oh
09:38 < genehacker_vista> significant amounts?
09:38 < genehacker_vista> significant enough to drop out?
09:39 < maradydd> ok, i can get an 80W cartridge heater for around 20 euros so that's not the big expense
09:40 < genehacker_vista> 80 watts?
09:40 < fenn> maradydd: i'm pretty sure it's the temperature controller.. industrial automation stuff always costs about 200x what it ought to
09:40 < kanzure> humanityplus is a front for the data integration entity
09:40 < genehacker_vista> hahahahahahahahaha
09:40  * maradydd is looking that up now
09:40 < maradydd> eeepc is slow :(
09:40 < genehacker_vista> don't ever watch season two
09:41 < genehacker_vista> it's from an anime
09:41 < genehacker_vista> it sucks
09:41 < genehacker_vista> they cut costs by repeating the same thing over and over for 5 episodes and counting
09:42 < genehacker_vista> who specifically though?
09:42 < fenn> paranoia agent got pretty funny in the middle with budget cuts/general slacking and hating their job as animators (and talking about it on the show)
09:43 < maradydd> yeah $384 for the temp controller -_-
09:43 < fenn> maradydd: so it actually costs negative $34?
09:44 < fenn> i will have to pay people to take it away
09:44 < maradydd> heh
09:44 < maradydd> market values i guess
09:44 < maradydd> ok fenn, so why does industrial automation stuff always cost about 200x what it should?
09:45 < fenn> because guys in suits spending other peoples' money are the only ones who can afford that stuff
09:46 < fenn> and they keep paying that much, so the people who make it dont bother selling it for less
09:46 < fenn> or i could just wave my hands and say 'supply and demand'
09:47 < maradydd> ok, sounds like a problem domain that wants open source
09:47 < fenn> yes that's mostly why i'm into open hardware
09:48 < maradydd> makes sense
09:48 < fenn> it's the same deal with lab equipment
09:50 < fenn> most lab equipment is a $2 microcontroller, a square of some exotic material, and some machined aluminum
09:51 < fenn> (or at least it should be)
09:52 < genehacker_vista> true true
09:52 < maradydd> so is this temp controller microcontroller-driven?
09:52 < genehacker_vista> or it's all stain less steel and needs to be held at high vacuum
09:52 < fenn> "this"?
09:52 < maradydd> the one linked from the instructable.
09:53 < fenn> probably.. it's got numbers and is programmable right?
09:53  * maradydd downloads a product manual to get a better idea.
09:54 < genehacker_vista> good idea
09:54 < genehacker_vista> those have helped me reverse engineer stuff
09:56 < fenn> thermocouple, 5A relay, 10Hz sampling rate (really?)
09:56 < fenn> all the rest is "shitty button interface" as far as i'm concerned
09:56 < kanzure> list of german terrorists:
09:56 < kanzure> http://eugen.leitl.org/list-of-terorists.pdf
09:57 < genehacker_vista> ???
09:57  * fenn pictures the guy from Die Hard
09:57 < genehacker_vista> pic unrelated?
09:57 < maradydd> hah arduino kegerator temp controller http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1187673287
09:57 < genehacker_vista> heh
09:57 < maradydd> first hit when i googled "arduino process controller" w/o quotes
09:58 < genehacker_vista> oh joy firefox just died
10:00 < kanzure> why are you on vista
10:00 < genehacker_vista> because my cad program doesn't work in vista
10:00 < kanzure> did you try wine?
10:00 < genehacker_vista> I know it sucks
10:00 < fenn> maradydd: why do people use peltiers for PCR thermocyclers?
10:01 < kanzure> genehacker_vista: did you try wine?
10:01 < genehacker_vista> can't get it to work with it
10:01 < kanzure> what was wrong?
10:01 < genehacker_vista> dunno
10:01 < maradydd> fenn: digital control over pwm
10:01 < fenn> but the aluminum block takes so long to warm up it barely matters
10:01 < fenn> and besides you can do pwm with ceramic resistor heaters
10:02 < genehacker_vista> oh wait it works
10:02 < maradydd> yeah, the 20EUR thing i found
10:02 < maradydd> cartridge heater
10:02 < fenn> right
10:02 < maradydd> i guess maybe because you can buy a peltier on ebay for cheap>
10:02 < maradydd> ?
10:02 < fenn> i imagine it has something to do with cooling down, but why not just a huge finned heatsink
10:02 < maradydd> and it has a nice friendly molex connector on?
10:03 < fenn> supposedly you can't use the cheap ebay peltiers because they'll crack from thermal stress
10:03 < genehacker_vista> the cooling down part
10:03 < fenn> (keggerator doesnt cycle so no thermal stress)
10:03 < kanzure> keggerator sounds like a bad KDE app
10:03 < maradydd> *snrk*
10:03 < fenn> my keggerator is frozen!
10:04 < maradydd> yeah i mean this dude is using a chest freezer
10:04 < maradydd> no peltiers involved
10:06 < genehacker_vista> a mechanical thermocycler?
10:06 < maradydd> but anyway if a thermistor of the right type can be found then a different kind of heating element can be used
10:06 < maradydd> the software ought in fact to be written so that any sort of heating element, and any sort of sensor, can be used
10:07 < kanzure> a thermocycler wrapper
10:07 < fenn> of course
10:07 < genehacker_vista> digikey or jameco has thermistors
10:07 < genehacker_vista> they're not expensive
10:07 < maradydd> mmm, abstraction
10:07 < genehacker_vista> I'm wearing one
10:07 < kanzure> mmm, abstraction- it's what's for breakfast
10:08 < fenn> people use thermocouples because they're more accurate? why can't you just compensate for the nonlinearity of a thermistor in software?
10:08 < genehacker_vista> thermistors are nonlinear?
10:08  * maradydd thought thermocouples were pretty cheap
10:08 < genehacker_vista> wtf?
10:08 < genehacker_vista> then how do digital thermometers work
10:08 < fenn> TC's are cheap but you need a special chip to compensate for the cold side junction
10:08 < fenn> or so they say
10:09 < maradydd> but yes if someone wants to do the interpolation math for the thermistor that would be pretty sweet
10:09 < fenn> i dont see why one couldnt use two TC's and do it in software, but maybe i just want to do everything in software
10:09 < genehacker_vista> what do drugstore thermometers use?
10:09 < maradydd> or at some point later on down the line show me how to do the interpolation math
10:09 < fenn> y = mx + b
10:09 < genehacker_vista> more specificaly what do digital watches do
10:09 < fenn> do that between points in a lookup table
10:09 < genehacker_vista> you call that nonlinear?
10:10 < fenn> it's called "linear interpolation"
10:10 < genehacker_vista> oops
10:10 < genehacker_vista> sorry
10:10 < maradydd> and they usually have a performance profile in the datasheet
10:10 < fenn> though at 10 hz you could just as easily do some fancy polynomial maths
10:11 < maradydd> so, an approximation can be interpolated
10:11 < maradydd> right, ok, i know some code that uses this and why :P
10:11 < maradydd> there's a linear interpolation library out there. c++ i think
10:11 < fenn> hmm.
10:12  * maradydd has compiled c++ for ARM
10:12 < kanzure> big deal
10:12 < fenn> does C++ even work on AVR's?
10:12 < maradydd> i have noooooo idea
10:12 < maradydd> but it will run on ARM
10:12 < genehacker_vista> C++ on a chip?
10:12 < maradydd> i don't just mean i built a cross-compiler, i mean i wrote code in c++ for the arm, cross-compiled it, and it works
10:12 < genehacker_vista> how?
10:12 < fenn> arm is harvard architecture
10:13 < maradydd> arm-elf-g++
10:13 < kanzure> genehacker_vista: it's not "C++ on a chip"
10:13 < fenn> uh. maybe that doesnt matter after all
10:13 < kanzure> you compile it into a binary made for the ARM architecture
10:13 < maradydd> yup
10:13 < fenn> anyway including a library for linear interpolation sounds like overkill/bloat
10:14 < kanzure> a dsp should be able to do that
10:14 < maradydd> commodity hardware ftw
10:14 < fenn> wait a sec, i thought this was supposed to cost $3
10:14 < kanzure> hm
10:15 < maradydd> some avrs have dsps on don't they?
10:15 < fenn> how did we get talking about dsp's?
10:15 < kanzure> sorry
10:16 < maradydd> fenn's telling me i need to quit whining and learn the math
10:16 < maradydd> in a very zen sort of way
10:16 < fenn> pretty much
10:17 < maradydd> kanzure: listen to this man, he will teach you much
10:17 < kanzure> I figured giving him a place to sleep would be a good start
10:17 < maradydd> sensible enough
10:18 < kanzure> maradydd: did you make me breakfast?
10:18 < fenn> this is the general idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Interpolation_example_linear.svg
10:18 < maradydd> no, was i supposed to?
10:19 < maradydd> fenn: ah right. ian goldberg's got a PIR scheme based on this
10:20 < maradydd> which is where i know of the linear-interp lib that they used
10:20 < fenn> private information retrieval?
10:21 < maradydd> but if i were a Real Programmer i'd implement the only-as-precise-as-it-needs-to-be code rather than bloating the uC firmware with a library
10:21 < maradydd> yes
10:21 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: could you like me to your website, i'd like to see some of your projects like the pcb driller. i know it's removed, but i can at least grab the content before it's gone :)
10:21 < ybit> bkero: what about you? do you have a personal website? i'd be interested in seeing how your welder was constructed
10:22 < maradydd> esp. since there will already need to be room for uIP -_-
10:22 < maradydd> it might be a $6 uC not a $3 uC
10:22 < fenn> ybit: http://designerthinking.com/ http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/
10:23 < fenn> maradydd: what specifically?
10:23  * maradydd is not rewriting the network stack for microcontrollers, i'm already doing it in haskell
10:23 < maradydd> fenn: i want to do the open thermocycler on an 8bit AVR
10:23 < fenn> i figured atmega48 would be big enough for both IP and PID algorithm
10:24 < fenn> and lookup table
10:24 < fenn> i havent looked at avr's in awhile, there's probably something better out by now
10:24 < maradydd> yeah i'm just thinking about the other stuff that needs to be stored on the microcontroller
10:24 < maradydd> and should in fact be burned into eeprom or something
10:25 < maradydd> decisions decisions *waves hands*
10:25 < maradydd> i have software to write first
10:25 < maradydd> and a glove to finish wiring
10:25 < fenn> are you one of those people who doesnt have weekends?
10:26 < maradydd> well
10:26 < maradydd> i'm not tied to a desk
10:26 < maradydd> actually i mostly work from my couch
10:27 < maradydd> and my dining room table
10:27 < fenn> i havent figured out how to make that work without becoming suicidal
10:27 < maradydd> at the moment i'm a kept woman
10:27 < maradydd> i need to get myself officially admitted to the university and apply for some funding
10:28 < maradydd> then i'll have an office there, and more people to bounce ideas off of
10:28 < maradydd> we've got a hackerspace in brussels with some sharp guys though
10:36 < fenn> the onboard cryptography for XMEGA might be useful if you're actually doing something dangerous/important
10:37 < fenn> or simply to put it up on the internet
10:38 < fenn> haven't figured out if it makes sense yet
10:38 < maradydd> ssl-thermocycler
10:38 < fenn> you could ssh in to a local subnet
10:39 < fenn> but that has its own problems
10:39 < fenn> namely that you have to set up a local subnet
10:39 < fenn> and gateway with ssh accounts etc
10:40 < fenn> what's the deal with "RESTful"? i looked at the wikipedia page but didn't really get it
10:42 < fenn> it's like saying "simplify, simplify..."
10:47 < maradydd> let everything be uniquely addressable over http
10:48 < fenn> as opposed to what?
10:50 < fenn> does it have to be http?
10:50 < maradydd> REST, yes, because fielding's one of the http authors
10:50 < maradydd> he eats sleeps and breathes it
10:52 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: you're in alabama too?
10:54 < kanzure> what's going on here? http://debian.semistable.com/debgraph.out.html
10:55 < kanzure> http://debian.semistable.com/dot/xserver-xorg-video-voodoo_testing.png
10:55 < kanzure> smaller: http://debian.semistable.com/dot/libregexp-java_testing.png
10:56  * fenn wishes they didnt use dot to render those
10:57 < fenn> hum i wonder if i can use their RESTful interface to change it to neato
10:57 < fenn> nup
10:57 < fenn> so much for representations
10:58 < kanzure> debtree is probably better
10:58 < kanzure> debtree package1 package2 #show the dependency path between the two packages
11:01  * maradydd knows not neato
11:02 < maradydd> is the .dot representation of each graph online somewhere?
11:03 < maradydd> alternately is there some common representation between dot/neato?
11:03 < kanzure> yes, dot/neato uses the same format
11:05 < fenn> dot draws the nodes in rows/columns and ends up using a huge amount of screen space (which incidentally locks up my laptop when i try to look at the png's)
11:05 < fenn> neato pretends there are springs holding the nodes together and they're spread apart by static electricity so it makes a sort of branched amoeba shape
11:06 < maradydd> oh, very nice. i've seen flex modules for that, was curious where else to find it
11:06 < maradydd> that might have been an excuse to learn flex, now i'm a little glad i don't have to
11:07 < kanzure> flex/bison stuff?
11:07 < maradydd> no, adobe flex
11:07 < fenn> dot/neato are part of graphviz
11:07 < maradydd> oy. clearly i have not looked at graphviz in a loooooong time
11:08 < maradydd> well, bleh. if they just made the point representation available, the user could decide whether to use dot or neato
11:10 < fenn> i was hoping that if i changed /dot/ to /neato/ in the url it would "just work"
11:12 < fenn> this is a lot better than the wikipedia page for future reference http://tomayko.com/writings/rest-to-my-wife
11:14 < maradydd> yes, that's the thing that really drove it home for me
11:14 -!- Smari [n=spm@dsl-149-118-111.hive.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
11:14 < maradydd> and yeah, that would be a cool thing to do, especially since they do provide the .dot files
11:15 < kanzure> aha, git commit --amend is my friend
11:15 < fenn> but it sounds like http only has 4 verbs? how do you "dot" something over http?
11:16 < maradydd> you ask to GET some resource with "neato" or "dot" as the argument, as necessary
11:17 < maradydd> if what you want is a neatofied/dotified picture.
11:17 < fenn> "Resources are referred to by a uniform resource identifier (URI)"
11:18 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r5878ae31adea /dep/topsort.py: Merge commit 'dep/master'
11:18 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * rab5156a18590 /dep/topsort.py: Merge commit 'dep/master' (kanzure:~/scripts/)
11:18 < kanzure> Use of uninitialized value $parent[0] in concatenation (.) or string at /var/www/skdb.git/ciabot_git.pl line 147.
11:18 < kanzure> error: Object c8753a8478f0b22af8e05cb9754aa2f62c5aa8ad is a tree, not a commit
11:18 < maradydd> the image is just presentation
11:18 < fenn> so if i have a url http://foo.com/a_graph/dot is that RESTful?
11:18 < fenn> because shouldnt the url refer to the resource (not the representation)
11:18 < kanzure> uniform resource indicator? URI? gasp!
11:18 < kanzure> identifier
11:18 < kanzure> sorry
11:19 < kanzure> um the commit messages there are not very useful
11:19 < maradydd> i'd do something like http://foo.com/graphN?format=dot
11:19 < ybit> kanzure: re: low hanging fruit: open eeg
11:19 < kanzure> but basically I added dep/topsort.py
11:19 < kanzure> ybit: I'm not convinced that eeg is useful for anything except bullshitting your psych professors
11:19 < maradydd> or http://foo.com/graphN?format=neato
11:19 < kanzure> it should be a browser plugin
11:19 < fenn> maradydd: but /dot is so much easier to type
11:20 < fenn> and remember
11:20 < maradydd> if you're constructing a URL by hand, sure
11:20 < maradydd> most of the time this gets done programmatically
11:20 < maradydd> this is why AJAX works at all
11:20 < fenn> besides i could do http://foo.com/render_dot?resource=GraphN
11:21 < fenn> where render_dot is some cgi script
11:21 < fenn> how did everything get so backwards?
11:21 < maradydd> ah, i think i see the fine line here
11:21 < maradydd> you're asking whether an argument is properly part of a URI
11:22 < fenn> right
11:22 < maradydd> and, if so, whether it necessarily should be
11:22 < ybit> kanzure: i plan on using mine to find out how to get 'in the zone' more often. by looking at my sleep and eating habits prior to feeling however it is that i want to feel
11:23 < ybit> i bet the zeo alarm clock could be made for ~$500-800
11:24 < kanzure> ybit: I'm sorry, I'm just not too convinced of EEG.
11:24 < kanzure> so you have about 20~ electrodes attached to the skull
11:24 < ybit> also good for diagnosing
11:24 < kanzure> and somehow this detects some electrical current permeating the skull from within the brain
11:24 < fenn> kanzure: he's just talking about monitoring sleep states
11:24 < kanzure> oh
11:24 < kanzure> sure then
11:24 < kanzure> yes that's one (good) application of EEG
11:25 < kanzure> er, just to finish my minirant, somehow people think that this 20-electrode-resolution of different signals tells them something specific 
11:25 < kanzure> ooh, spooky, you can get a resolution of four different key presses
11:25 < ybit> who?
11:25 < kanzure> :p you can get that by twitching muscles
11:26 < kanzure> the media, bloggers, all sorts of psych papers, 
11:26 < ybit> i'm guessing that's the general feeling you get when talking to people about eeg
11:26 < kanzure> there are a lot of more interesting fish in the bucket to shoot at
11:26 < fenn> more SQUIDs in the bucket to deep fry
11:26 < fenn> or was tha cuttlefish
11:27 < kanzure> society for questionable unidentifiable data?
11:27 < fenn> superconducting quantum interference device
11:27 < kanzure> oh god
11:28 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQUID
11:28 < kanzure> nice magnetometer pic
11:28 < kanzure> there's a way to do magnetometers with atom holography and ultracold bose-einstein condensates
11:29 < fenn> " 
11:29 < fenn>  A prototype of a Semiconductor Superconducting Quantum Interference Device (SQUID).
11:29 < kanzure> or maybe I'm thinking of accelerometers out of UHV BECs
11:29 < fenn> [edit]Uses for SQUIDs
11:29 < fenn> The extreme sensitivity of SQUIDs makes them ideal for studies in biology. Magnetoencephalography (MEG), for example, uses measurements from an array of SQUIDs to make inferences about neural activity inside brains."
11:29 < kanzure> "Another area where SQUIDs are used is magnetogastrography, which is concerned with recording the weak magnetic fields of the stomach"
11:29 < ybit> """Like repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (rTMS), neurofeedback is an innovative form of electrotherapeutics that complements neurochemical interventions for mood disorders. "With the use of anticonvulsants as mood stabilizers," Othmer said, "we have seen a convergence of psychiatry and neurology in the field of pharmacology. Similarly, neurofeedback signals a convergence of psychiatry and neurology in bioelectrical approaches to treating af
11:29 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_SQUID_microscope
11:29 < fenn> ion flows = electric current = magnetic field
11:30 < kanzure> ybit: bioneurofeedback with EEG might be interesting, yes
11:30 < kanzure> ybit: however it's important that you know that the signal is what you think it is .. and not what you hope it is.
11:30 < kanzure> for instance, heart beat feedback is kind of an obvious one
11:30 < kanzure> you can confirm through the age-old tried and true methods of hcecking your pulse
11:30 < kanzure> or using a heart rate monitor
11:31 < ybit> o of an obvious one
11:31 < ybit> 11:28 < kanzure> you can confirm through the age-old tried and true methods of hcecking your pulse
11:31 < ybit> argh
11:31 < ybit> ignore
11:31 < fenn> "After processing to obtain current magnitude, this microscope has been successful at locating shorts in conductors to within ±3 µm at a sensor – current distance of 150 µm"
11:31 < ybit> http://californiabrainworks.com/articles/PsychiatricTimesarticle.pdf
11:31 < ybit> there, that's what i meant to paste
11:32 < kanzure> ybit: I think you should look around for what you can get out of EEG so that you don't get your hopes up
11:32 < ybit> EEG neurofeedback for treating psychiatric disorders
11:32 < kanzure> like, look at the actual data from the studies
11:32 < kanzure> ybit: do you have a zotero collection of EEG papers?
11:32 < ybit> i don't have unrealistic goals with eeg, it's used for monitoring and aiding in diagnosing mental states
11:32 < kanzure> I have to admit I've actually ignored EEG for the past year so I haven't been following it
11:32 < kanzure> okay
11:33 < ybit> part of open source medicine imo
11:33 < kanzure> ybit: also, if you could figure out a spherical coordinate system for brain regions, that would be hot. 
11:33 < kanzure> there's something in the literature (multiple systems for it actually) but I haven't found them yet
11:33 < ybit> that would be hot
11:34 < ybit> </hiltonism>
11:35 < ybit> lowest hanging fruit for diy-trans for me: eeg, laser printer/laminated sheets microfluidics, AR, wearables
11:36 < kanzure> ybit: did you see the trans-tech.yaml file in skdb that fenn committed last night?
11:36 < kanzure> we were brainstorming some low-hanging fruit ideas and fenn wrote them down in a somewhat possibly usable form
11:36 < ybit> even book scanning can be considered diy-trans, keeping info portable and ubiquitous
11:36 < fenn> "even steel is a post-scarcity technology!" </paul fernhout>
11:37 < ybit> i have a similar file on my computer somewhere, i did indeed see it
11:37 < ybit> also the communication matrix won't be hard to accomplish
11:37 < ybit> autoscholar's another
11:38 < ybit> even org-mode can be considered diy-h+ since it allows one to be more productive
11:38 < ybit> fenn: right
11:38 < fenn> slippery slope
11:38 < fenn> before long you'll be buying stock in microsoft
11:39 < kanzure> stuff on the right requires things that are on the left
11:41 < kanzure> no, I still don't get it. why would "dna sequencing" 'require' microfluidics? it doesn't..
11:42 < ybit> who said that?
11:42 < kanzure> it's in the file
11:42 < ybit> for hlpc probably
11:43 < kanzure> hlpc isn't necessarily microfluidics
11:43 < ybit> not necessarily, but what we've been looking at is
11:44 < fenn> but microfluidic dna sequencing does
11:45 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * rc884c40198c6 /trans-tech.yaml: added some PCR and DNA sequencing nodes
11:46 < ybit> kanzure: interesting, you have a script that alerts twitter when you make an update
11:46 < ybit> i like it :)
11:46 < ybit> it's really cool to have updates on skdb while at work
11:46 < ybit> minus the work part
11:47 < fenn> it does twitter?
11:47 < fenn> i mean, i know it's possible, but does it?
11:48  * maradydd gets commit tweets from kanzure 
11:48 < kanzure> oh really?
11:49 < kanzure> huh guess I enabled that
11:49 < kanzure> http://twitter.com/kanzure
11:50 < ybit> and fenn doesn't do twitter either i'm guessing?
11:50 < fenn> twitter is lame
11:50 < ybit> maybe you will be more apt to try identi.ca?
11:51 < fenn> random unsorted emails from people? no thanks
11:51 < fenn> just because it's on the web doesn't make it better
11:51 < ybit> it's more like random txt messages to your phone
11:52 < fenn> all the more reason to hate phones
11:52 < ybit> with a web interface added
11:53 < ybit> bah, could be useful when grepping for info
11:53 < fenn> if only i could grep the web
11:53 < ybit> :)
11:55 < fenn> "reclaim google, altavista, dejanews, freshmeat, research index, slashdot and many others from the false-prophet, pox-infested heathen lands of html-forms, placing these wonders where they belong, deep in unix heartland, as god loving extensions to the shell"
11:55 < kanzure> surfraw :)
11:55 < fenn> i suspect google is the closest most people have come to being exposed to the command line
11:56 < maradydd> my, surfraw has a lot of libs
11:56 < maradydd> er, uses
11:56 < fenn> elvi?
11:57 < maradydd> bunch of perl stuff had to be installed
11:57 < kanzure> surfraw has recently been somewhat dead
11:57 < kanzure> no more developers hanging around
11:58 < fenn> guess they got tired of rewriting the scrapers
11:58 < fenn> surfraw was before people realized they should publish API's
11:59 < fenn> too bad it hasn't kept up (API's arent exactly easy to use either)
12:00 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r42b7373a3d7e /trans-tech.yaml: updated transhuman tech requirements doc
12:03 < ybit> when computerized manufacturing process planning systems and manufacturing processes reference guide come in, i plan on creating a makeshift manual book scanner
12:03 < ybit> i.e. prop the camera on something take pictures
12:05 < fenn> i think you will be disappointed in cmpps
12:06 < fenn> btw i have like 250 pages from mprg
12:06 < fenn> from google books
12:12 < fenn> maradydd: "a Turing-complete language which _cannot be disabled_" - what about the halting problem?
12:12 < fenn> or fork bombs
12:22 < maradydd> ah, yes, xslt
12:22 < maradydd> the stupidest thing ever put into a browser
12:23 < maradydd> yes, you can trick the xslt interpreter into an infinite loop
12:23 < maradydd> and the xslt interpreter can't be turned off the way the javascript one can
12:23 < maradydd> that's an upcoming paper, btw. not done writing it yet -_-
12:23 < fenn> ok i just thought what you were saying sounded impossible
12:24 < maradydd> you can turn off javascript in your browser. you can't turn off xslt.
12:25 < fenn> thought you meant "here is a turing complete language which is immune to attack"
12:26 < maradydd> no. the exact opposite, here is a turing complete language which is at this time an undisableable attack vector.
12:26 < maradydd> please do not spread that around, k? i still have to write those papers in order to write my thesis ;P
12:27 < fenn> heh ok
12:27 < maradydd> and i've been scooped fairly recently so it burns
12:27 < maradydd> i trust you and bryan as far as i can throw you :P
12:28 < kanzure> import transtech
12:28 < kanzure> transtech.print_total(transtech.yamlfile)
12:28 < fenn> maradydd: huh. i thought i made up that phrase
12:28 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r36d529c08ba4 /transtech.py: playing around with the output
12:29 < fenn> must have rattled around in my braincase for a few years unnoticed
12:55 < kanzure> so.. george church emailed me.
12:55 < kanzure> _http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/bios/church.html
12:55 < kanzure> ceorge? heh
12:56 < kanzure> http://arep.med.harvard.edu/
12:57 < kanzure> http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~biophys/George_Church.htm
12:57 < fenn> you should probably read http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/church06/church06_index.html
12:58 < kanzure> '18 postdoctoral fellows, 14 graduate students '
12:58 < fenn> though its sort of like listening to yourself ramble
13:00 < kanzure> heh dyson dropped out of college during year 2 and then went straight to graduate school at harvard
13:10 < fenn> "those two things were very intensely distressing to the National Institutes of Health. They said, we can't let the Department of Energy steal what could be the biggest prize in history by doing the genome project and we certainly don't want a company to start patenting all of our genes. That got them motivated in a way that nothing else could have...
13:10 < fenn> and managed to get us the three billion dollars that we asked for."
13:10 < fenn> three BILLION dollars??
13:11 < kanzure> what the hell?
13:11 < fenn>  this figure refers to the total projected funding over a 13-year period (1990–2003) for a wide range of scientific activities related to genomics. These include studies of human diseases, experimental organisms (such as bacteria, yeast, worms, flies, and mice); development of new technologies for biological and medical research; computational methods to analyze genomes; and ethical, legal, and social issues related to genetics. Hum
13:12 < fenn> i wonder if that all came through
13:12 < kanzure> computational methods and experimental organisms are at least up on NCBI somewhat
13:12 < kanzure> those "new technologies" I'm not so sure about.
13:12 < katsmeow-afk> i wonder if they'll blow it all on a microsoft-campus building spree and not actual science
13:12 < bkero> Genome sequencing was hard work
13:12 < fenn> that was 1990-2003
13:12 < kanzure> bkero: ever read "How perl saved the Human Genome Project"?
13:13 < bkero> kanzure: haha no
13:13 < kanzure> it's about a page long, kinda worth it
13:13 < bkero> linky?
13:13 < kanzure> http://bioperl.org/
13:13 < kanzure> hold on
13:13 < bkero> Ah, bioperl
13:13 < kanzure> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/How_Perl_saved_human_genome
13:13 < kanzure> that diagram is precious
13:14 < kanzure> http://www.bioperl.org/w/images/b/bd/TPJ_Helix.jpg
13:15 < fenn> i thought you were going to link to the unsung hacker all-month-coding-spree that won the race
13:15 < fenn> or whatever actually happened
13:17 < fenn> do you remember what i'm talking about?
13:18 < fenn> i guess it's not in the logs
13:20 < bkero> They were using 1 byte per base, why not just use 2 bits per base, and have it be a QUARTER of the size.
13:21 < fenn> byte can encode uncertain values too
13:21 < fenn> not to mention makes the code way easier
13:22 < fenn> 4x is not much of a savings for massive headaches
13:23 < bkero> It is when it's to the scale of 1-10tb many years ago
13:23 < bkero> It's also not that much of a code headache at all.  You just do 2 simple bitwise operations.
13:24 < bkero> Although I see how uncertain values could be a valid argument.
13:25 < kanzure> fenn: yes I remember
13:25 < kanzure> it was posted to the diybio list
13:26 < kanzure> "God speed"
13:26 < fenn> aha
13:26 < fenn> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/339276d4234ecccf/4cf5451230630171?lnk=gst&q=godspeed#4cf5451230630171
13:27 < fenn> much more interesting story
13:28 < fenn> (sorry, "why perl is soo kewl" just doesnt interest me)
13:28 < kanzure> here's Kent's paper: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/11/9/1541.abstract?ck=nck
13:29 < kanzure> robots.txt exclusion :( http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://genome.ucsc.edu/goldenPath/algo.html
13:29 < kanzure> https://lists.soe.ucsc.edu/pipermail/genome/2001-April.txt
13:30 < kanzure> ah here we go
13:30 < kanzure> http://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~kent/
13:30 < kanzure> note the beard.
13:31 < kanzure> http://hgwdev.cse.ucsc.edu/~kent/exe/usage.txt
13:32 < kanzure> nice fasta file utilities listed
13:32 < kanzure> huh these are all nice
13:32 < kanzure> why aren't these packaged?
13:32 < fenn> i wish people wouldnt say "non-commercial use only"
13:33 < fenn> genome project stuff from 2000? why would anyone package it?
13:34 < fenn> redhat 7.3 didnt have dependency based packages
13:36 < kanzure> aren't they only up to redhat 11?
13:36 < fenn> blat looks useful and probably should be packaged
13:37 < fenn> "maps your sequence to location in the genome"
13:39 < fenn> the license looks icky anyway
13:39 < kanzure> some hero he is :/
13:39 < kanzure> stallman should have done it :p
13:40 < kanzure>  780 faFrag - Extract a piece of DNA from a .fa file.
13:40 < kanzure>  781 usage:
13:40 < kanzure>  782    faFrag in.fa start end out.fa
13:40 < kanzure> er, so a regexp basically?
13:40 < fenn> if you can call this a license "These executables are free for personal,
13:40 < fenn> non-profit, and academic users.  Commercial
13:40 < fenn> users please make arrangements with 
13:40 < fenn> me"
13:47 < kanzure> buh? http://biopackages.net/
13:48 < kanzure> http://biopackages.wiki.sourceforge.net/Quick+Developers+Guide
13:49 < kanzure> http://biopackages.wiki.sourceforge.net/Biopackages+Manuscript+Page
13:49 < fenn> BLAT right there on the first page
13:50 < kanzure> "and is growing at a rate of roughly 20 packages/week."
13:50 < kanzure> heh they reference why repos are a good idea "Couch, Alva - SLINK: Effective Filesystem Maintenance Abstractions for Community-Based Administration"
13:50 < fenn> 20/week seems too fast
13:51 < fenn> that's faster than debian
13:51 < fenn> unless they mean 20 new versions
13:52 < kanzure> guess it's too easy to convince bioinformatics people that packages are interesting
13:52 < bkero> LOOK ITS REUSABLE
13:52 < kanzure> bkero: that doesn't seem to convince anyone who doesn't understand packages
13:53 < fenn> you're just mad because diybio ignores everything you say
13:53  * bkero just went into work to reboot gentoo's smtp server.
13:53 < kanzure> yeah :(
13:54 < bkero> Life is hard as a mad scientist. :(
13:54 < bkero> You never get invited to fancy parties.
13:54 < kanzure> I thought the point of mad science was to become more mad?
13:54 < bkero> To what end?
13:54 < kanzure> to no end
13:54 < fenn> biopackages.net is using CVS, RPM, and perl.. wtf
13:54 < kanzure> maybe it's old?
13:55 < kanzure> don't the rpm people hate perl?
13:55 < kanzure> the deb people are the ones supposedly in bed with perl
13:55 < fenn> apt is half perl
13:55 < fenn> not sure about rpm
13:56 < fenn> anyway i just thought it was weird
13:57 < fenn> "discourage any kind of negative use and encourage positive uses in every way you can as a top societal priority, not something you just give lip service to for a microsecond in some Congressional session."
13:58 < fenn> "we could have said, this could cause bio-war or robot-war or bug-war or something. We chose not to go that route because that implants in the young mind that that's what biology and synthetic biology is about."
14:02 < fenn> am i reading george church or george dyson?
14:02 < kanzure> there was a section by george dyson on that page
14:02 < kanzure> edge.org is secretly this "forum" where they post replies to each other
14:03 < fenn> it's like 30 pages long and seems to repeat some phrases from the top section
14:03 < katsmeow-afk> the more a republican politician repeats something, the more it's the opposite of what they mean
14:04 < fenn> yah the dyson response is at the very bottom, only like a paragraph
14:04 < fenn> i guess the top part was just an abstract
14:04 < katsmeow-afk> the top 29.5 pages?
14:06 < fenn> the part above "Response by George Dyson"
14:06  * katsmeow-afk nods
14:15 < bkero> fenn: RPM is 100% dirtiness
14:15 < kanzure> says a debian sysadmin
14:16 < bkero> I'm a gentoo sysadmin.
14:16 < kanzure> huh guess that says something about rpm then
14:16 < bkero> I have to administer CentOS systems.  They're ugly.
14:20 < fenn> "Somehow having the keys to the chem lab seemed to involve a whole lot more trust than having access to the greenhouse in my previous projects"
14:21 < fenn> bkero: i agree, sort of a pale slow funky imitation of debian
14:22 < bkero> They're enterprisey
14:23 < fenn> for some reason the phrase "enterprising bastard" springs to mind
14:23 < maradydd> hah, what's what from?
14:24 < fenn> apparently it's a synonym for "thief"
14:26 < fenn> oh, the quote is from george church's personal bio: http://arep.med.harvard.edu/gmc/pers.html
14:30 < fenn> i wonder how they manage to justify the polonator sequencer's cost of $170k
14:37 < fenn> personal fabomics
14:57 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r9bd7f4422243 / (4 files in 2 dirs): break everything
15:12 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r0c0be7b6939d /pymates/pymates.py: matrix math works now- fixes various index out of bound errors
15:31 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r6931aa85fdb7 /pymates/ (pymates.py rapid-test.py): part mating transformation works (sort of)- is using some fake values at the moment; added a rapid tester script for your convenience
15:43 -!- strages [n=strages@c-68-62-216-5.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:04 < kanzure> ~/manufacturing/national_design_repository/gicl.cs.drexel.edu/repository/data/repository
16:08 < fenn> w3m-img
16:12 < kanzure>  /home/bryan/manufacturing/national_design_repository/gicl.cs.drexel.edu/repository/data/repository/Autodesk/blowdryer
16:22 < kanzure> http://gicl.mcs.drexel.edu/
16:22 < kanzure> sat2vrml
16:22 < kanzure> http://www.graco.unb.br/alvares/DOUTORADO/papers_omega/sat2vrml/edge.mcs.drexel.edu/GICL/sat2vrml/3dt.readme.txt
16:22 < kanzure> hm
16:23 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20050310144102/http://edge.mcs.drexel.edu/GICL/sat2vrml/
16:24 < kanzure> "**Note: I cannot provide binaries for this program because it requires
16:24 < kanzure> libraries that are owned by Spatial. You must own a copy of ACIS to compile
16:24 < kanzure> this program" lame
16:27 < kanzure> hello:
16:27 < kanzure> http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/wiki/Engineering_Format_Registry
16:40 -!- drazak [n=drazak@drazak.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:50 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * reb1e620e062e /combined.dat: new users need combined.dat to run tests.py
16:53 -!- drazak [n=drazak@drazak.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:53 -!- Smari [n=spm@88.149.89.58] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:01 < kanzure> hey Smari 
18:01 < Smari> y0 Bryan
18:04 < kanzure> 1.5 million dollars for a repository? wtf is this bullshit http://www.digitalgovernment.org/search/projects/project.jsp?ID=226
18:05 < kanzure> 4 aps (acronyms per second)
18:07 < Smari> Isn't that 157555?
18:23 < kanzure> pymates.move(pymates.total_parts[1], 5,5,-10, 0,0,1, -1,0,1)
18:23 < kanzure> *finally*
18:23 < kanzure> Smari: my mistake. let me correct it: 150k dollars for a repository? wtf is this bullshit
18:24 < Smari> kanzure, indeed.
18:28 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/2009-07-19_pymates.png
18:28 < kanzure> behold! "progress"
18:29 < Smari> that's rather phallic... what is it?
18:30 < kanzure> it's a peg in a hole in a block
18:30 < kanzure> pymates is a module for skdb to figure out how many ways different oem parts can fit together
18:30 < kanzure> or whether or not they are compatible at all
18:31 < kanzure> so I'm just starting with some basic geometries
18:31 < kanzure> er, there's a hole in the block that you can't see
18:31 < kanzure> guess that's kind of important
18:31 < Smari> mkay.
18:31 < Smari> isn't that computationally intensive?
18:32 < Smari> Figuring out if things fit together that is?
18:32 < fenn> yep
18:32 < kanzure> it's not as complex as you think
18:32 < fenn> that's why it's the last resort - makes you wonder why we're implementing it first
18:32 < kanzure> think of it more as features/tags
18:32 < kanzure> and then you match up the tags
18:33 < fenn> so the pretty pictures are just icing, even though nobody's bothered to write the cake
18:33 < fenn> apparently campbell doesn't appreciate "cake"
18:33 < fenn> <- cake eater
18:33 < kanzure> you sir have not eaten one single cake the entire time you have been here
18:33 < kanzure> you are not a cake eater
18:34 < Smari> The cake is a lie?
18:34 < kanzure> The icing is the lie.
18:34 < fenn> according to uncyclopedia: "A very handsome man with a cake fetish." i think that just about describes me
18:34 < Smari> I baked bread today.
18:34 < fenn> the icing contains nutrasweet
18:35 < kanzure> congratulations, you've been venn-diagrammed into all other ten million plus losers on IRC
18:35 < fenn> wow ten million?
18:35 < kanzure> china, man
18:35 < fenn> i feel so, one-with-the-internet
18:36 < Smari> kanzure?
18:37 < kanzure> hm?
18:38 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@98.214.96.63] has quit []
18:39 < Smari> nevermind.
18:42 < fenn> git/yaml blog engine: http://tom.preston-werner.com/2008/11/17/blogging-like-a-hacker.html
18:43 < fenn> "This is also the engine behind GitHub Pages"
18:43 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, got the first complaint about the pics on the sterioimages.html being shrunk
18:43 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: say what?
18:43 < katsmeow-afk> [18:18] <unkmar> katsmeow-afk: some of us have dual screens and can handle the larger images.
18:43 < katsmeow-afk> [18:18] <unkmar> please don't reduce to 400x300
18:43 < katsmeow-afk> [18:19] <unkmar> I saw detail before that was lost in the reduction. :(
18:43 < fenn> someone with a 1600 pixel monitor was upset?
18:45 < fenn> it just seems like django is a bit overkill for a blog
18:45 < fenn> why does this stuff have to be so big and complicated
18:45 < kanzure> what's wrong with a flatfile wiki?
18:45 < kanzure> er, blog
18:45 < kanzure> sorry. we're talking about blogs, not wikis
18:46 < kanzure> blosxom
18:46 < kanzure> was using that for a while
18:46 < kanzure> http://www.blosxom.com/
18:47 < fenn> aether might be worth looking at too
18:48 < fenn> anyway blogs suck
18:48 < fenn> i just want something to render wiki markup, read text files from a git repo, and not get in the way too much
18:48 < fenn> and be easily hackable of course
19:27 < genehacker_vista> whoa
19:27 < genehacker_vista> what did I miss?
19:43 < kanzure> a lot of bad matrix math
19:50 < Smari> i.e., nothing new.
19:51 < fenn> ~/manufacturing/national_design_repository/gicl.cs.drexel.edu/repository/data/repository/Lego/lego-wipers
20:03 < kanzure> neat :)
20:06 < genehacker_vista> legos?
20:13 < kanzure> gmsh seems to do wrl
20:21 < fenn> apparently some person made a lego simulator
20:21 < fenn> you could crank gears and linkages and perhaps stick blocks together
20:21 < kanzure> http://geuz.org/gmsh/
20:22 < kanzure> is that leocad?
20:33 < fenn> dunno
20:33 < fenn> i just saw the movies remember
20:42 < genehacker_vista> but can model block deformation?
20:48 < kanzure> does anyone know where fltk-config could be found? it's not in libfltk1.1
20:49 -!- katsmeow-afk is now known as katsmeow
20:49 < kanzure> maybe "fluid"
20:49 < kanzure> yep. that did it.
20:50  * kanzure compiles gmsh with ./configure --enable-occ --with-occ-prefix=~/local/opencascade/OpenCASCADE6.3.0/ros
20:51 < kanzure> fenn: could you try wrl/vrml loading in gmsh on leibniz?
21:00 < kanzure> compiled in 5m57.569s
21:08 < genehacker_vista> hmmm...
21:09 < genehacker_vista> I need to figure out how to ssh into lab computers
21:12 -!- Smari [n=spm@88.149.89.58] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:15 < kanzure> genehacker_vista: you can do it on ubuntu by typing "ssh"
21:15 < kanzure> on windows, you can try putty (search for it)
21:58 < ybit> ~/manufacturing/national_design_repository/gicl.cs.drexel.edu/repository/data/repository/Lego/lego-wiper is where exactly?
22:00 < kanzure> leibniz
22:01 < CIA-73> skdb: kanzure * r487456e0203e /pymates/pymates.py: correct coords for pymates example
22:01 < genehacker_vista> it's not a matter of doing ssh as it is finding a machine to use
22:01 < kanzure> what do you mean?
22:02 < genehacker_vista> I need a machine to ssh into
22:02 < genehacker_vista> that has solidworks on it
22:02 < kanzure> how would ssh work with solidworks?
22:02 < genehacker_vista> I am confused
22:02 < kanzure> there's a way to do remote desktop with windows but it sucks because it's windows
22:03 < kanzure> doesn't have much to do with ssh though
22:04 < genehacker_vista> the question is can I do that with a lab computer
22:04 < genehacker_vista> I need to do a computation that takes a long time
22:06 < genehacker_vista> possibly days
22:08 < genehacker_vista> otherwise I'll have to test an IRL part
22:08  * ybit is thinking for fish:/KIOslave
22:08 < ybit> thankful*
22:11 < fenn> ybit you can look at some of the lego-wiper stuff here: http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/lego/
22:11 < fenn> i just thought it was funny that they stole kanzure's thunder
22:11 < kanzure> thundarrr!
22:12 < fenn> some screenshots i took of files in the repo: http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/nat_repo/
22:13 < fenn> not like they're going to be useful or anything
22:13 < kanzure> it's nice
22:13 < kanzure> thanks
22:13 < fenn> i just have a cad fetish i guess
22:14 < kanzure> how about the lego videos or something
22:14 < fenn> hmm. they're pretty big
22:15 < kanzure> there's a copy on adl
22:15 < fenn> oh? ok
22:15 < fenn> i dont see it
22:15 < kanzure> ok nevermind. hmph.
22:16 < kanzure> "yer doin it wrong" http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/nat_repo/servo_board.png
22:16 < fenn> what's wrong with that? besides being boring
22:17 < kanzure> are those just block models of electronic components?
22:17 < fenn> they were probably exported from some EDA program
22:17 < kanzure> I sure hope so
22:17 < fenn> that said, some people do cad in autocad :
22:17 < fenn> i hate your keyboard btw
22:18 < kanzure> there is a stack directly behind you
22:18 < kanzure> have at it
22:26 < katsmeow> can anyone grab this for me? : http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118811133/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
22:26 < katsmeow> they want money for it,, unless you have a subscription
22:27 < ybit> hmm
22:28 < ybit> something has gone wrong with serveftp
22:28 < ybit> can't start links from there to grab the paper for katsmeow 
22:28 < ybit> drazak: what papers are you missing?..
22:30 < ybit> ah, here we go
22:31 < ybit> katsmeow: what's the title of the paper, a doi might be helpful too
22:31 < ybit> katsmeow: the link doesn't work because the cookie has expired
22:32 < ybit> or maybe i'm just not accepting cookies
22:32 < katsmeow> yeas, they have a severe cookie thing going on
22:32 < ybit> nope
22:32 < ybit> i'm accepting cookies
22:32 < ybit> btw, you're in alabama? what part?
22:33 < ybit> near the bay?
22:33 < katsmeow> i had to resort to IE to get the page
22:33 < katsmeow> 45 min from Bham
22:33 < ybit> south or north of bham?
22:33 < ybit> anywho, i'm highly amused
22:34 < katsmeow> amused?
22:34 < ybit> i would have never imagined another alabamian would be in this channel
22:34 < katsmeow> me either!
22:34 < ybit> i'm in florence
22:34 < ybit> the rest of my family is in birmingham, huntsville, and nashville
22:35 < ybit> anywho, send me the title again and i'll grab the paper
22:35 < ybit> s/again/
22:36 < katsmeow> http://doi.wiley.com/10.1111/j.1461-0248.2004.00665.x
22:36 < katsmeow> i dunno where Florence is, but i have heard about it
22:36 < katsmeow> heard of it,, heard the name
22:36 < ybit> far northwest, 1.5 hours from huntsville, 2 from bham
22:36 < katsmeow> how do you get the page?
22:37 < ybit> eh?
22:37 < katsmeow> [22:29] <ybit> anywho, send me the title again and i'll grab the paper
22:37 < katsmeow> how?
22:37 < ybit> i'm trying through my university's proxy right now
22:37 < katsmeow> ah
22:37 < ybit> but kanzure has hooked me up with the connection at utexas
22:37 < ybit> which has access to many more journals than i do
22:38  * katsmeow nods
22:40 < genehacker_vista> kanzure...
22:40 < kanzure> ?
22:44 < katsmeow> In later tests, platinum was found in the 
22:44 < katsmeow> nodules at concentrations of 0.1 to 0.5 grams per 
22:44 < katsmeow> ton.
22:44 < katsmeow> cost effective to grab some?
22:46 < katsmeow> ahhh, now i know why the entire hawaii island chain out towards Japan were made protected: there's estimated 400 million tons of 2.5% cobalt ore out there
22:46 < ybit> argh, again my uni doesn't have access, and i recieve an error when trying to access EBSCO through utexas..
22:48 < kanzure> try ssh -X :) 
22:48 < kanzure> I've recently rediscovered the joys of -X
22:48 < ybit> i see utexas has access to wiley so this shouldn't take too long
22:51 < ybit> hah, links doesn't know what to do with pdf
22:51 < ybit> hmm
22:53 < kanzure> ybit: ssh -X and run konqueror on adl.serveftp.org. you should be able to get kpdf running.
22:54 < ybit> ah
22:54 < ybit> never used -X before
22:55 < ybit> ybit@adl.serveftp.org's password: 
22:55 < ybit> Warning: untrusted X11 forwarding setup failed: xauth key data not ge
22:55 < ybit> Warning: No xauth data; using fake authentication data for X11 forwar
22:56 < ybit> An error occurred while loading fish://ybit@adl.serveftp.org:
22:56 < ybit> The process for the fish://adl.serveftp.org protocol died unexpectedly.
22:56 < kanzure> ybit: can you chmod a+r your ~/*.pdf ?
22:56 < ybit> fail everywhere
22:56 < katsmeow> there's a html version of the page too
22:56 < ybit> katsmeow: yeah, tried that
22:56 < ybit> something about logging in to wiley, guess i would have to setup a username/passwd
22:57 < kanzure> utexas sometimes does not have sufficient access to wiley interscience
22:57 < ybit> kanzure: on serveftp.org?
22:57 < kanzure> yes
22:57 < ybit> yeah
22:58 < kanzure> still says permission denied
22:58 < ybit> now try
22:58 < kanzure> permission denied
22:59 < ybit> -rw------- 1 ybit ybit   142888 2009-06-20 23:06 Reactive Ion Etching of InP using Hydrocarbons.pdf
22:59 < ybit> i see
22:59 < kanzure> looks completely wrong
23:01 < ybit> now try?
23:01 < ybit> -rw------- 1 ybit ybit  1316009 2009-06-20 23:06 Silicon surface texturing by reactive ion etching.pdf
23:01 < ybit> ah fuck
23:01 < kanzure> chmod a+r *.pdf
23:02 < ybit> that works
23:02 < ybit> not sure what i was doing
23:02 < kanzure> yelling at the filesystem?
23:02  * katsmeow goes to put the cat and house to bed
23:02 < ybit> did your chmod a+r ~/*.pdf first didn't work and my  find path/ -type d -exec chmod a+x {} \; seemed to not work either
23:03 < kanzure> I didn't chmod anything for you.
23:04 < ybit> i tried the command you suggested*
23:04 < kanzure> anywho. I'm gone now.
23:04 < ybit> alright
23:04 < kanzure> be sure to pull from the skdb repo
23:04 < kanzure> lots of fun OCC stuff added today
23:04 < kanzure> like skdb/shell.py and skdb/pymates/rapid-test.py
23:04 < ybit> and i'll try fetching the file for you katsmeow
23:05 < ybit> will do kanzure 
23:08  * ybit forgot the Y in ssh, thus -X failed
23:09 < ybit> my first time to use -X ..now i have reached true linux user status
23:18 < ybit> s/rapid-test.py
23:18 < ybit> argh
23:18 < ybit> http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/Greenhouse%20gas%20buildup,%20sardines,%20submarine%20eruptions%20and%20the%20possibility%20of%20abrupt%20degradation%20of%20intense%20marine%20upwelling%20ecosystems.pdf
23:18 < ybit> katsmeow ^ took long enough
23:19 < katsmeow> wwwwooooooooooooooooooooo
23:21 < katsmeow> and wow at the contents too
23:22 < katsmeow> thanks muchly, ybit!
23:23 < ybit> no probs :)
23:23 < ybit> (i lie)
23:23 < ybit> no probs for now on though, w00t
23:23 < katsmeow> kool
23:46 < ybit> http://www.geuz.org/gmsh/ :: Gmsh: a three-dimensional finite element mesh generator with built-in pre- and post-processing facilities
23:46 < ybit> http://www.geuz.org/gmsh/#Screenshots
23:49 < ybit> http://www.geuz.org/gmsh/screencasts/