--- Day changed Mon Aug 03 2009
00:00 < fenn> yes that sounds useful
00:00 < kanzure> and then write a method that makes yaml be ok with certain tags not corresponding to classes it knows about
00:00 < fenn> or better yet ignore them
00:00 < kanzure> maybe exception handling?
00:00 < fenn> if that works
00:00 < kanzure> doesn't yaml throw an exception upon coming across a foreign tag?
00:00 < fenn> i dont think you can get that much info about an exception at runtime
00:01 < fenn> yes but how do you know it's in your list of expected missing tags
00:01 < kanzure> hm there's probably no way to force yaml to continue
00:01 < kanzure> ConstructorError
00:02 < fenn> yeah better to just make a dummy object
00:03 < fenn> metadata lists the classes used for this package; maybe it could list tags too
00:04 < fenn> that's sort of what i meant anyway
00:04 < fenn> with the classes field
00:04 < kanzure> yes but I was originally thinking about moving template.yaml into metadata.yaml
00:04 < fenn> 'these are the classes you need in order to parse data.yaml'
00:04 < kanzure> moving template.yaml into metadata.yaml will not work (unless I can do some fancy yaml exception handling)
00:05 < fenn> oh well
00:06 < fenn> skdb.load(foo) should just make dummy objects with the corresponding tags then
00:06 < kanzure> how would it do that if yaml crashes before you can figure out what the tags are
00:06 < fenn> if you want to look at template.yaml without loading the python classes
00:06 < fenn> template.yaml still a separate file
00:06 < fenn> so you do that between files
00:07 < fenn> maybe the document separator '---' could be used, but i still don't really know how that works
00:07 < kanzure> I get it, but what do you mean by "between files"
00:07 < fenn> load metadata.yaml; do stuff(); load template.yaml
00:08 < kanzure> okay
00:08 < kanzure> you have any idea where ConstructorError is defined?
00:08 < kanzure> there's yaml.YAMLError but nothing else really
00:08 < fenn> you shouldnt get any error
00:08 < kanzure> aha, yaml.constructor.ConstructorError
00:10 < kanzure> when I do a "try, except:" how do I get the "this" or "self" in the exception code block?
00:10 < kanzure> aha
00:10 < kanzure> except SomeError, myvar:
00:11 < fenn> hah http://lesswrong.com/lw/xr/in_praise_of_boredom/ came up when searching for scifi stories about aliens without a sense of boredom
00:11 < kanzure> it's almost a holiday tradition for singularitarians to discuss overlord ai that attempt to please all of our senses
00:12 < kanzure> and boredom into infinity-future-doubleplus-bad scenarios
00:12 < kanzure> "expected paperclip maximizer" sigh
00:13 < QuantumG> you don't need aliens.. you can talk to people without a sense of boredom.. go ask your grandparents if they were ever bored growing up.
00:13 < fenn> they were too busy getting chased by wooly mammoths to get bored
00:13 < kanzure> try: yaml.load("hah: !blah")
00:13 < fenn> or was it the other way around
00:13 < kanzure> except yaml.constructor.ConstructorError, vroom:
00:13 < kanzure> print vroom.problem_mark
00:13 < kanzure> or print vroom.problem
00:14 < fenn> um
00:14 < kanzure> from now on I vow to name all of my variables after official NASCAR sounds
00:15 < kanzure> including the classic 'kaboom'
00:15 < fenn> where did you get 'problem' from?
00:16 < kanzure> found it through the all knowing power of bpython
00:16 < fenn> weird that it shows up in dir() but not help()
00:17 < kanzure> someone needs to beat the bpython developers with a baseball bat over the head (hell, through the head)
00:17 < kanzure> scrolling should be implemented by now
00:18 < kanzure> neat. so, to figure out if the problem is what you think it is,
00:18 < kanzure> vroom.problem_mark.buffer[(vroom.problem_mark.index)]
00:19 < kanzure> which should return "!" if it's a tag error
00:19 < kanzure> and prepend : to the ] if you want to get the tag name
00:19 < fenn> tag could have data after it
00:19 < fenn> foo: !tag bar
00:20 < kanzure> are spaces and newlines and EOF the only way to terminate a tag name?
00:20 < fenn> nothing a regex couldnt fix
00:20 < fenn> i think so
00:20 < kanzure> what about special characters?
00:20 < fenn> comment
00:20 < kanzure> yaml should ignore those anyway
00:20 < kanzure> not sure if that's in the error or not
00:21 < kanzure> ok it's in the error
00:23 < kanzure> I wonder if this is the only type of ConstructorError
00:23 < kanzure> if so, you could just regex vroom.problem (not vroom.problem_context)
00:24 < kanzure> which looks like this: "could not determine a constructor for the tag '!bar'"
00:24 < fenn> there's another tricky yaml thing i've been too scared to use yet, called 'implicit path resolver'
00:25 < kanzure> what does it do?
00:25 < fenn> basically if the mapping value (foo in the above example) has a certain string like 'foo' then parse it as this sort of object
00:25 < kanzure> I thought you did that with the dice example?
00:25 < kanzure> 26d4
00:25 < fenn> but it's not even in the pyyaml docs and may not exist elsewhere besides pyyaml
00:25 < fenn> that's just a regular old implicit resolver
00:26 < kanzure> so you do typing based off of key name?
00:26 < kanzure> how is that different from __setvalue__()?
00:27 < fenn> help(yaml.add_path_resolver)
00:27 < fenn> you mean __setstate__ ?
00:27 < kanzure> yes
00:28 < fenn> setstate lets you do anything, pretty much
00:28 < fenn> oh wait
00:28 < fenn> setstate is a method of the class
00:28 < fenn> that doesnt work so well if you dont know what type to parse the data as
00:29 < kanzure> right
00:31 < kanzure> well that was a pointless exercise (since document separators are probably a better idea)
00:38 < kanzure> heh from SA today, some goon doctor decided to cut open a poison ivy rash and pour rubbing alochol into it
00:38 < kanzure> and now can't stop puking, vomiting, can't hold down any water, is dehydrated and apparently decided to go outside in a blacksuit for a few hours (he's a funeral minister or something)
00:40 < fenn> yay open sores medicine
00:41 < fenn> i hereby claim trademark on the phrase 'open sores medicine' - infringement punishable by death
00:42 < kanzure> quick, register opensores.org, biosores.org, bioopensores.org, sorebioopen.org, ..
00:42 < kanzure> what else are you going to do with millions and millions of dollars in funding?
00:47 < kanzure> heh "square peg in a round hole" http://www.inventgeek.com/Projects/BreadBox/Overview.aspx
00:49 < fenn> wow the internet really has thought of it all before
00:49 < fenn> wait a minute, that was jon cline i was talking to about this
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00:50 < kanzure> who is the author of this page?
00:50 < kanzure> "jared buock"
00:51 < fenn> kanzure: how did you come across this link?
00:52 < kanzure> fenn: jonathan cline
00:52 < kanzure> email to diybio
00:53 < fenn> right now i see it
00:57 < fenn> jared bouck sure gets up to a lot of good
00:57 < fenn> paintball turret with wireless heads up display
00:58 < kanzure> i want that mounted on the apartment door by tomorrow morning
00:58 < fenn> i think everything on that site is the same author
01:05 < fenn> hehe 'stealth server' http://www.inventgeek.com/Projects/ProjectSilver/Overview.aspx
01:12 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r0a9556696a9a / (core/skdb.py core/threads.py doc/todo/pymates-todo): worked on the Package class- not quite done with basic package loader.
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06:44 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rbd27d76de79b /core/skdb.py: python source file will not be immediately loaded (also, path+.py is not sufficient)
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07:42 < kanzure> http://j.photos.cx/modeltatbridge-7d4.jpg
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09:32 < ybit> %TERM
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09:32 < ybit> echo %TERM
09:32 < ybit> argh
09:35 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r2da169d1173e /core/ (settings.py skdb.py): settings.py created, has some paths and hacks for paths for hackers
09:35 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r6089db52e9c4 /core/skdb.py: worked on metadata loader for packages
09:42 < kanzure> fenn: maybe you should put some todo notes in skdb/doc/todo/
09:49 < kanzure> fenn: I'm trying to say "def __init__(stuff): self = self.yaml_loader_method_here(blah)" but that doesn't seem to work
09:49 < kanzure> any ideas?
09:53 < kanzure> nevermind, I did a workaround
09:53 < kanzure> was hoping that I could say lego = Package("lego") and have it load whatever "lego" package might exist, and if there's not one, then carry about its business
10:27 < kanzure> dummy tags
10:28 < kanzure> link?
10:28 < fenn> gah
10:28 < kanzure> you suck
10:28 < fenn> http://yaml.org/spec/current.html#id2503753
10:29 < kanzure> %TAG ! tag:clarkevans.com,2002:
10:29 < kanzure> http://yaml.org/spec/current.html#global%20tag/
10:29 < kanzure> bleh
10:32 < kanzure> yaml.load("%TAG ! wee\n--- !blah")
10:32 < kanzure> yaml.load("%TAG ! wee:\n--- !blah")
10:33 < kanzure> ConstructorError: could not determine a constructor for the tag 'globalblah'
10:34 < kanzure> for yaml.load("%TAG ! global\n--- !blah")
10:34 < fenn> mine says could not determine a constructor for the tag 'wee:blah'
10:34 < fenn> anyway you're doing it wrong
10:34 < kanzure> if you had a colon after wee then that's why it says wee:blah
10:36 < kanzure> basically it's a way of saying "load it up into this object"
10:36 < kanzure> so in this case we'd have a global class "wee"
10:36 < kanzure> and then we'd tell wee to always hasattr() for "blah" or something
10:36 < kanzure> for any "blah" I mean
10:37 < kanzure> yaml.load("%TAG !yaml! tag:\n--- !yaml!blah2")
10:37 < kanzure> then it says "could not determine a constructor for the tag 'tag:blah2'"
10:38 < kanzure> that's a really bad hack though
10:39 < fenn> what's a bad hack?
10:40 < kanzure> making a class that always says "yes I have that attribute"
10:40 < fenn> is that possible?
10:40 < kanzure> class test: def __hasattr__(self,attr): ..
10:40 < fenn> hasattr isnt a method
10:41 < kanzure> does hasattr() access __getattribute__ ?
10:41 < fenn> you can overload hasattr but i think that would break the rest of the program
10:41 < kanzure> help() says hasattr calls getattr
10:41 < kanzure> so I suspect __getattribute__ may be the way to go
10:41  * kanzure tests
10:42 < fenn> wait a minute, how does this fix the yaml tag issue?
10:44 < kanzure> guess it would still fudge up the file
10:44 < kanzure> nevermind
10:46 < fenn> class dummy(): pass
10:46 < fenn> yaml.load('foo: !!python/object:__main__.dummy \n stuff: 1234')
10:47 < fenn> {'foo': <__main__.dummy instance at 0x98cd04c>}
10:49 < fenn> when i do foo.stuff why do i get AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'stuff'
10:49 < fenn> it's not a dict as far as i can see
10:49 < kanzure> it needs to be able to init the object
10:49 < kanzure> yaml needs to be able to init the object, I mean
10:50 < fenn> foo.__init__() seems to work
10:50 < kanzure> how about foo() ?
10:50 < fenn> somehow yaml manages to extract the stuff attr when i do yaml.dump(foo)
10:50 < fenn> foo = yaml.load('foo: ...
10:50 < fenn> not a class
10:51 < fenn> dummy is the class
10:51 < fenn> oh heh
10:51 < fenn> it's a dict with 'foo':dummy()
10:51 < fenn> foo['foo'].stuff
10:52 < kanzure> did you forget how yaml.load() works again?
10:52 < fenn> i guess i didnt need the foo: in the yaml.load line
10:56 < kanzure> what about: !!python/object/new:module.Class
11:05 < kanzure> class Fake(yaml.YAMLObject): yaml_tag="!fake" @classmethod def from_yaml(cls, loader, node) ..
11:06 < kanzure> the test: yaml.load("blah: !fake test\n---\nhello: !test")
11:10 < kanzure> how is "class dummy_supertest(yaml.YAMLObject):" invalid syntax?
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11:10 < kanzure> yaml.add_multi_constructor('!', your_constructor_function)
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11:14 < kanzure> yaml.add_multi_constructor('!', your_constructor_function)
11:14 < fenn> looks like the modem crashed.
11:14 < kanzure> 11:10 < xitology> the constructor function accepts three parameters: the  loader, the tag suffix and the node and should return a  python object corresponding to the node
11:15 < fenn> i dont see how to give it a tag suffix
11:15 < kanzure> "the tag suffix" is anything coming after the !
11:15 < fenn> oh, multi_constructor is a function i'm supposed to pass to add_multi_constructor
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11:21 < fenn> how nice of you to join us
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11:52 < CIA-43> skdb:  * ra7e2bae02eb3 /packages/lego/data.yaml: convert rot to vector; move height/diam attrs to geometry object
11:52 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r8b9bf46e87a1 /packages/screw/template.yaml: move thread interfaces to the proper place
11:55 < kanzure> wait, why isn't "thread: !thread" under "interfaces:" in screw/template.yaml?
11:56 < kanzure> oh nevermind
11:56 < kanzure> the way it is now is better actually
12:03 < fenn> not sure why you said i should use add_multi_constructor vs just add_constructor
12:03 < fenn> i think multi_constructor will take precedence over any tag with the prefix (so any !foo tag, basically)
12:04 < fenn> hmm constructor doesnt accept a tag suffix, nevermind
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12:31 < kanzure> maybe if I drank less water, I wouldn't be able to sweat so much
12:35 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rf9824b0f28c6 /core/skdb.py: some helper methods for loading packages
12:37 < kanzure> fenn: why are you working on add_multi_constructor?
12:37 < fenn> i'm not, i'm writing unit tests
12:37 < kanzure> for what?
12:37 < fenn> tag_hack
12:37 < kanzure> why are you working on tag_hack is what I meant to ask :)
12:37 < fenn> wtf does that mean
12:37 < kanzure> that means that I got what I asked wrong
12:38 < kanzure> tag_hack is so that we don't have to include broken tags and be screwed for it
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12:46 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r8868718a6656 /core/ (skdb.py yamlcrap.py): add tag_hack for loading yaml tags that we dont have classes for yet"
12:46 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r5f964b41611c /core/skdb.py: Merge branch 'master' of ssh://adl.serveftp.org/var/www/skdb
12:47 < fenn> i guess merge was smart enough to figure it out
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12:55 < fenn> what is "#replace self's information with the loaded_package information" supposed to do?
12:57 < fenn> and what is assert not (os.listdir(settings.paths["SKDB_PACKAGE_DIR"]).count(path) 
12:58 < fenn> shouldnt open_package just return skdb.load(package/data.yaml)?
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13:03 < kanzure> assert not is the same as assert (not False)
13:08 < kanzure> hey El_Matarife 
13:08 < kanzure> how did the meeting go?
13:09 < kanzure> fenn: "#replace self's information" meant that the idea was to load up the current object .. er.. like, if you say Package("screw"), it should load up the 'screw' package, and put it into *that* object
13:09 < kanzure> into *that* "self"
13:24 < kanzure> so anyway once you fix all your broken "improvements" you might be able to run it and see what it does
13:24 < kanzure> :p
13:36 < El_Matarife> It went pretty well
13:36 < El_Matarife> Checked out a lot of different machines, there was some workshops but I missed literally every single one but "How to make money on your CNC Machine"
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13:58 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r9ab3a3a57442 /core/settings.py: make_pretty
14:06 < kanzure> fenn: I need you to push.
14:07 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r079fd512e220 /core/skdb.py: blarg
14:07 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r17f5fd8399dd /core/yamlcrap.py: need this too
14:07 < flazmot> its so funny tom barbalet has an article in h+
14:08 < kanzure> hplusmagazine
14:08 < kanzure> h+ is hard to search for :/
--- Log closed Mon Aug 03 14:35:18 2009
--- Log opened Mon Aug 03 14:35:21 2009
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14:52  * ybit wants a few recommended torrents, maybe some anime, maybe some music. doesn't matter
14:55 < draz|lab> man
14:55 < draz|lab> I've read like 40 papers today
14:55 < draz|lab> my brain is fried
15:06 < kanzure_> http://kbyanc.blogspot.com/2007/07/python-aggregating-function-arguments.html
15:07 < kanzure_> draz|lab: 40papers/day is nothing. faster!
15:16 < fenn> def test(**kw): print kw
15:16 < fenn> test(arg1='huh', arg2='wut')
15:16 < fenn> {'arg1': 'huh', 'arg2': 'wut'}
15:17 < fenn> i dont think there's a way to make it automatically parse the dict
15:17 < fenn> if you want to pass in a dict
15:19 < fenn> def test(**kw): kw['stuff'].update(locals()); print locals()
15:19 < fenn> and then i think you have to do del(kw)
15:22 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r38dc30326728 /core/skdb.py: meddling
15:23 < draz|lab> kanzure_: lol
15:25 < fenn> **kw just catches any left over named arguments
15:27 < kanzure_> why do you have to del(kw)
15:31 < fenn> well maybe you dont, but i think it's a recursive dict otherwise?
15:31 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r78db5ec1a81c /core/skdb.py: fixed open_package
15:31 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r0c9d8ec29b96 /core/skdb.py: merged skdb.py - move things around
15:36 < kanzure_> still getting the load error for pack = open_package("lego")
15:37 < kanzure_> something about my updated metadata being totally wrong
15:37 < kanzure_> which is just an appended "!package" at the top of the file
15:44 < fenn> you know i always meant for skdb.load(open('metadata.yaml')) to work
15:47 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rfe64290fb37e /core/yamlcrap.py: yamlcrap- let classes define whether or not their tag is for a mapping or a scalar
15:49 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * red7dbbb44917 /core/skdb.py: remove Package().open()
15:53 < fenn> huh? why did you just delete that?
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16:04 < genehacker> http://www.exo.net/~jyu/activities/column%20chromatography.pdf
16:04 < genehacker> simple column chromatography
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17:06 < CIA-43> skdb:  * rfb2416ce4c20 /core/yamlcrap.py: do default yaml dump if no yaml_repr
17:06 < CIA-43> skdb:  * ra879bd1d03b6 /core/ (skdb.py yamlcrap.py): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://adl.serveftp.org/var/www/skdb
17:06 < CIA-43> skdb:  * radf6c574265a /core/yamlcrap.py: populate attributes as if it were a typical yaml.load call
17:06 < fenn> hm
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17:30 < fenn> weird
17:31 < fenn> class Foo(skdb.FennObject): value=123
17:31 < fenn> yaml.dump(Foo)
17:31 < fenn> TypeError: can't pickle int objects
17:32 < kanzure_> why are you dumping a class
17:33 < kanzure_> >> Either I will build my tools, or my tools will build my
17:33 < kanzure_> >> tools for me.
17:33 < kanzure_> >  
17:33 < kanzure_> > Good luck. Ping me when you have your self-replicating nanofactory. Better:
17:33 < kanzure_> > send me one.
17:33 < kanzure_> Maybe I'll mail him some semen.
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17:55 < kanzure_> fenn: did you fix it
17:55 < kanzure_> your TypeError
17:56 < fenn> no
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17:57 < draz|exhausted> did you fix it kanzure_ 
17:57 < draz|exhausted> and by it I mean pyscholar
17:57 < kanzure_> fenn: did you try making an instance of the class and doing a dump on that?
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18:02 < fenn> yes, works fine
18:02 < fenn> also class Foo(): pass; dump(Foo) works
18:03 < fenn> erm class Foo: v=123; dump(Foo)
18:08 -!- indigo [n=indigo@theross.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:08 < kanzure> hello indigo
18:09 < CIA-43> skdb: fenn * r246e04a72cbd /core/yamlcrap.py: remove unnecessary yaml loading code
18:09 < CIA-43> skdb: fenn * rb3d1efdebbe0 /packages/ (lego/metadata.yaml screw/metadata.yaml): add tag for packages
18:09 < CIA-43> skdb: fenn * rec891b6b03e2 /packages/screw/screw.py: pymates won't load without occ installed
18:09 < indigo> hi.
18:10 -!- Ian_Daniher [n=it@69.61.230.246] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:12 < kanzure> hello Ian_Daniher 
18:14 < kanzure> indigo: we would very much like you to become a package maintainer
18:14 < kanzure> maybe you could look at skdb/packages/lego/metadata.yaml for the time being
18:15 < indigo> well, let's back up
18:15 < fenn> what package would he be maintaining?
18:15 < indigo> i'm still trying to figure out exactly what you are trying to accomplish
18:15 < kanzure> fenn: I found indigo in #reprap
18:15 < kanzure> and told him about the idea of apt-get for hardware projects
18:15 < fenn> a useful data format to store open source hardware 
18:16 < kanzure> but also some algorithms for generating assembly instructions and such
18:16 < fenn> yeah but that stuff's hard so don't get your hopes up
18:16 < kanzure> instructions are not trajectories
18:17 < kanzure> anywho. instructables but better :)
18:17 < fenn> sorry you meant "human readable instructions" not "robot instructions"
18:17 < kanzure> yes
18:17 -!- ybit [n=ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:18 < kanzure> hello ybit
18:18 < ybit> hiya
18:18 < ybit> had to shut down computer, grandfather is coming to live with me. it's the reason we had to go to the hopital the other day
18:19  * ybit turns 24 tomorrow, what to do, what to do...
18:19 < kanzure> gah if drazak wasn't in here I'd still be the youngest
18:19  * ybit was planning on again scuba diving, but unfortunately, that won't happen due to gramps needing some care 
18:19 < kanzure> er not that I expected to get older and the rest of you stay the same or anything
18:20 < draz|exhausted> lol
18:20 < ybit> draz|exhausted: is what 17?
18:20 < draz|exhausted> 16 until next month
18:20 < kanzure> 11
18:20 < draz|exhausted> yet I know the most biology
18:20 < draz|exhausted> sad
18:20 < kanzure> uh, what?
18:20 < draz|exhausted> :P
18:21 -!- ybit is now known as ybit|oldFart
18:21 < fenn> indigo: so does skdb sound interesting to you?
18:22  * ybit|oldFart is likely to croke over any second now
18:22 < draz|exhausted> rofl ybit|oldFart 
18:22 -!- ybit|oldFart is now known as ybit
18:24 < ybit> indigo: if not, you're lame. just wanted to let you know
18:24 < fenn> no pressure or anything :P
18:25  * kanzure picks up a particularly jagged stone
18:25 < ybit> :P
18:25 < indigo> well, the concept sounds interesting, but i don't know anything about the details
18:25 < draz|exhausted> nobody does
18:26 < fenn> pff
18:26 < kanzure> draz|exhausted: huh?
18:26 < kanzure> where have you been drazak?
18:26 < draz|exhausted> :P
18:26 < draz|exhausted> I kid
18:26 < kanzure> git + django (an unnecessary frontend for viewing) + python + OpenCASCADE/pythonOCC + "packages" of hardware
18:26 < indigo> when you say "hardware" what do you mean?
18:27 < fenn> machine tools, circuit boards, chemicals, dna sequences...
18:28 < kanzure> space stations, wearables, lasers, 
18:28 < draz|exhausted> physical crap
18:28 < kanzure> crap?
18:28 < indigo> sounds very broad
18:28 < draz|exhausted> indigo: think openwetware
18:28 < draz|exhausted> indigo: but with a package system
18:28 < kanzure> draz|exhausted: openwetware is a wiki for academics
18:28 < kanzure> this is not openwetware.org at all
18:28 < draz|exhausted> yeah, with protocals
18:28 < kanzure> sigh
18:28 < kanzure> draz|exhausted: shut the hell up.
18:29 < fenn> unfortunately(?) there are no examples to point at and say "this is what we're doing" because nobody's ever done it before
18:29 < fenn> debian comes pretty close
18:29 < kanzure> so people have to actually "listen"
18:29 < kanzure> and people aren't good at listening
18:29 < kanzure> unless they know "apt-get" and friends already :)
18:30 < kanzure> "early adopters for a technology that doesn't exist and that we have to create"
18:31 < kanzure> btw, openwetware.org already has protocols on their wiki, but they are in plaintext and impossible to computationally parse without spending many thousands of man-hours manually editing their cruft.
18:32 < fenn> indigo: a package maintainer would know the specs on their hardware and put it into a format like this: http://adl.serveftp.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=skdb.git;a=tree;f=packages/screw
18:32 < fenn> other people can make modifications and post them on their own repository or some public-writable repo; it's the maintainer's job to make sure that the changes make sense and play nice with the rest of the system
18:33 < kanzure> er some of the changes can be self-monitored (like if a measurement is in the wrong units)
18:33 < indigo> sounds vauge
18:34 < indigo> how is this better than putting the design files in a rcs?
18:34 < kanzure> this complements that
18:34 < fenn> it is an rcs
18:34 < indigo> but i already have an rcs
18:35 < fenn> you can merge (or not, i dont care.) the important part is that you provide metadata
18:35 < kanzure> we shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel every time we come across CAD information and hardware projects
18:35 < kanzure> this is a way to "package" these projects up in a standard way
18:36 < indigo> do we reinvent the wheel?
18:36 < kanzure> how long have you spent trying to find CAD models before heh
18:36 < fenn> every time you find a circuit schematic in pdf format you're reinventing the wheel
18:37 < kanzure> posting a fuzzy jpeg of a part is not sufficient. it's 2009 ffs
18:37 < indigo> well the solution to that is simple. post the design files.
18:37 < fenn> aha, but how do you know what format it is, and how do you know what is in the file?
18:37 < fenn> and even then you're often left with just some oddly shaped blob and no idea how to use it
18:38 < indigo> well, usually there is a web page
18:38 < fenn> one might think so
18:38 < fenn> but he'd be wrong most of the time (where most is defined by the number of design files posted on the intarwebs)
18:38 < indigo> i think there is a reason there is not a common metadata schema for all hardware
18:38 < fenn> me too
18:38 < indigo> it's the same reason computers can't understand natural language
18:38 < fenn> probably not the same as your reason though
18:39 < kanzure> this is engineering, not natural language stuff
18:39 < fenn> rdf has been around for decades now
18:39 < indigo> can you define a schema for *all* engineering?
18:39 < indigo> because that's what it sounds like you are doing
18:39 < fenn> no, because by the time we're done technology will have progressed
18:39 < fenn> that's why i'm not doing "schemas"
18:39 < indigo> yeah, there's that
18:40 < indigo> well if you aren't doing schemas, what are you doing?
18:40 < indigo> without a schema, how can you do better than google?
18:40 < fenn> self defining code
18:40 < fenn> see, a schema is this static document that breaks if it doesn't get exactly what it wants
18:41 < fenn> but if your schema can be modified, people can add new representations for their problem domain
18:42 < indigo> yes, but then you have 2000 fields that mean the same thing
18:42 < fenn> that's why we need package maintainers
18:42 < indigo> i think i could come up with some examples of places that try to do this in a more limited domain and fail
18:42 < indigo> try mouser.com, for example
18:42 < indigo> they just do electronic components, not all hardware
18:42 < indigo> and the search works, sorta.
18:43 < fenn> well i'm sorry they don't insist on clean data
18:43 < indigo> but actually, most of the stuff i find by thumbing through the catalog, or by finding something written by someone else
18:43 < indigo> the thing is you can't insist on clean data
18:43 < indigo> for one, you will never get it
18:43 < indigo> two, it's too much work to make it
18:44 < fenn> how does debian work then?
18:44 < ybit> 18:28 < kanzure> unless they know "apt-get" and friends  already :)
18:44 < kanzure> octopart.org also sucks
18:44 < indigo> debian has a very limited domain, and the "metadata" is very limited
18:44 < ybit> i was about to say something until i read "and friends" :)
18:44 < fenn> actually octopart is pretty good for electronics
18:44 < kanzure> ybit: someday I'll actually bother to install gentoo
18:44 < indigo> it's "searching" is just a plain text search of the descriptions
18:44 < indigo> you can usually do better searching google
18:44 < indigo> unless you already know the program you want, of course.
18:45 < kanzure> yes but that's because they ignored the ggetopt standard
18:45 < fenn> indigo: but, it works!
18:45 < indigo> fenn: it works, because it doesn't do anything.
18:45 < fenn> don't tell me that a google search will download all the packages you need to run a program
18:46 < indigo> apt does just a few things:
18:46 < indigo> - only software
18:46 < indigo> - has a version field
18:46 < indigo> - has a description field
18:46 < indigo> - has dependencies
18:46 < kanzure> that's not the dot deb format
18:46 < fenn> it's not?
18:46 < fenn> oh, right
18:46 < indigo> it doesn't go in to what the package does
18:46 < fenn> it's the .control format
18:46 < indigo> just how to install it.
18:47 < fenn> well, it does, sorta, but they chose the crappy version of debtags back in the day
18:47 < indigo> if you want to say, find linux games that are about racing and are 3d, you'd do better to search google
18:47 < fenn> have you tried synaptic?
18:47 < indigo> yes, it's just a graphical frontend to apt.
18:47 < fenn> so you know about the category search
18:47 < fenn> (am i thinking of synaptic?)
18:47 < kanzure> yes
18:47 < indigo> that's not a synaptic feature
18:48 < indigo> it's an apt feature
18:48 < kanzure> indigo: so you're claiming that apt doesn't do anything?
18:48 < indigo> and searching by categories isn't usually usefull
18:48 < fenn> it's not?
18:48 < fenn> would you prefer NLP or something?
18:48 < indigo> well, i can't remember the last time i used it.
18:48 < kanzure> yeah I don't use it either
18:48 < fenn> "computer, fetch me the best video game evar!"
18:48 < indigo> develop NLP that works and you will be a very rich person.
18:49 < fenn> NLP is a dead swan
18:49 < kanzure> a dead black swan?
18:49 < indigo> the problem with categories is that someone has to define them, and the things have to fit in them.
18:49 < kanzure> doesn't that make it a rotting swan?
18:49 < fenn> a black swan that choked on a red herring
18:49 < indigo> rarely does it work.
18:49 < kanzure> that's not what we're on about though
18:49 < indigo> well, what are you about,t hen?
18:49 < fenn> categories? yes
18:49 < fenn> classifications actually
18:50 < indigo> classification is really hard.
18:50 < fenn> harder than NLP?
18:50 < indigo> i'd say it's about the same problem.
18:50 < fenn> no way
18:50 < indigo> it's easy if you think about screws, nuts, washers, hinges
18:50 < indigo> but, what about a bicycle?
18:51 < indigo> what category is that?
18:51 < fenn> vehicle
18:51 < indigo> but doesn't it also have wheels?
18:51 < fenn> so?
18:51 < indigo> well, what if i'm looking for things that roll?
18:51 < kanzure> actuators?
18:51 < fenn> um. "things that roll"?
18:51 < kanzure> linear motion converters?
18:51 < kanzure> I think that's actually expressable in some units
18:51 < indigo> no, i just want something that rolls.
18:52 < kanzure> how do you not have this problem with debian?
18:52 < fenn> well does a bike roll or do the wheels roll?
18:52 < indigo> i do have this problem with debian
18:52 < kanzure> dependency resolution is the main problem being solved
18:52 < indigo> the thing is, apt doesn't really make it any easier to find software unless you already know what you want.
18:52 < kanzure> that's true for the leaf nodes
18:53 < indigo> ok, dependencies are one thing that could be solved
18:53 < kanzure> once you know what leaf node you want,
18:53 < indigo> i will give you that
18:53 < kanzure> it can travel back to the roots and you have what you need then.
18:53 < kanzure> right
18:54 < fenn> we're not trying to solve the "computer please read my mind" problem
18:54 < kanzure> I have enough trouble reading my own
18:56 < indigo> well, here's something to consider
18:56 < indigo> apt already handles dependencies and versioning pretty well
18:56 < indigo> why not use apt?
18:57 < fenn> versioning doesn't work so well for hardware compatibility
18:58 < kanzure> actually I looked into repurposing apt
18:59 < kanzure> and other managers
18:59 < kanzure> because that's the obvious first step right?
18:59 < kanzure> it turns out that apt is grossly integrated into the beating heart of debian
18:59 < kanzure> and the development team (deity) has long been disbanded
18:59 < kanzure> and the original development work happened in '91 or something in some random-ass unlogged IRC channel
18:59 < kanzure> that nobody has logs to any more.
19:01 < indigo> fink has repurposed apt
19:01 < kanzure> http://finkproject.org/ ?
19:01 < indigo> so it must not be impossible
19:01 < kanzure> what I want is a generic packaging system
19:02 < kanzure> xpkg is close, but it's the only one I can find
19:02 < indigo> that's the one
19:02 < kanzure> smartpm is some nice algorithms, but where's the rest of it :p
19:02 < indigo> there's nothing in apt that is specific to software best i can tell
19:02 < indigo> it's just files
19:02 < indigo> also, many RCS support nested branches
19:02 < indigo> so, when you check out X, you get Y and Z as well.
19:03 < indigo> then there are simple soultions (my favorite) like makefiles or just plain shell scripts that get the dependencies
19:04 < kanzure> what was the early package manager that was a shell script that just downloaded dependencies?
19:04 < kanzure> tzsh?
19:04 < kanzure> sht? or something?
19:06 < fenn> apt doesn't keep track of separate dependency trees
19:06 < kanzure> ". For example, the Angel's told us that in their case they called their local law enforcement in Florida who sent a uniformed officer in a squad car to their home. The first thing you can imagine the officer asked was, "What's a domain?".'""
19:06 < fenn> we need to keep track of both build-time and run-time hardware deps
19:06 < kanzure> the software isn't particularly hard to write..
19:07 < kanzure> if I can only remember to actually get it done
19:14 < kanzure> kword has corporate backing?
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19:41 < kanzure> ok, spider veins are necessary to complete the vegeta look
19:49 < kanzure> "Cushing's syndrome (also called hyperadrenocorticism or hypercorticism) is a hormone (endocrine) disorder caused by high levels of cortisol (hypercortisolism) in the blood. This can be caused by taking glucocorticoid drugs, or by tumors that produce cortisol or adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH).[1] Cushing's disease refers to one specific cause, a non-cancerous tumor (adenoma) in the pituitary gland that produces large amounts of ACTH, which in turn elevates cortisol. It can usually be cured by surgery."
19:50 < draz|exhausted> watching house?
19:51 < kanzure> "genetic horoscopes"
19:51 < kanzure> yes but not really paying attention
19:51 < kanzure> fenn was wondering what cushings was
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19:57 < kanzure> holy crap
19:57 < kanzure> Resolving single cone inputs to visual receptive fields
20:02 < draz|exhausted> hmm
20:02 < draz|exhausted> lets see if this keyboard is any good
20:02 < draz|exhausted> it's complete blank
20:02 < draz|exhausted> and it has no markings for home keys
20:02 < draz|exhausted> I dunno if I can handle it
20:02 < kanzure> "This suggests a greater than normal dependence on cortical regions in which movements are represented in intrinsic coordinates of motion (M1 and somatosensory cortex) and a less than normal dependence on regions in which movements are represented in extrinsic coordinates (premotor and posterior parietal)."
20:03 < kanzure> "A stronger than normal association between motor commands and proprioceptive feedback may be a consequence of the fact that M1 and somatosensory cortex are nearby cortical regions and short-range cortical connections are overexpressed in children with ASD."
20:03 < draz|exhausted> lets see about this keyboard thing
20:22 < kanzure> http://www.slideshare.net/IgnitePhoenix/slicing-brains-very-quickly-todd-huffman
20:24 < draz|exhausted> hmmmm this keyboard isn't too bad
20:29 < kanzure> wpmage?
20:30 < kanzure> I seem to type most quickly on laptop keyboards for some reason
20:30 < kanzure> not sure why
20:30 < draz|exhausted> eh, I dunno
20:31 < draz|exhausted> I'm not quite as fast as I am on a real Model M
20:31 < draz|exhausted> but I'm close
20:31 < draz|exhausted> so probably 80some
20:31 < draz|exhausted> dunno, I'm typing normal speed, which is like 60 or so
20:31 < draz|exhausted> I did some fast yping and I think I hit 80some
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20:32 < genehacker> internet down
20:33 < genehacker> wireless inoperable
20:42 < kanzure> draz|exhausted: 80some should be slow for you
20:43 < kanzure> 120 is where I max out at
20:43 < kanzure> (on qwerty)
20:43 < draz|exhausted> I max out around 100
20:43 < kanzure> yeah okay
20:43 < kanzure> 100!=80
20:43 < draz|exhausted> I did some fast typing on this keyboard and I hit about 80
20:43 < draz|exhausted> I hit about 100 on a model m
20:44 < kanzure> in middle school and high school we had this windows network drive where we had these common apps
20:44 < kanzure> one of the apps was this typing program
20:44 < kanzure> over the years I tested myself weekly or something
20:44 < kanzure> and I got to the point where .. I knew what the coders got wrong about it
20:44 < draz|exhausted> lol
20:44 < kanzure> so I kind of knew when to type and when not to type
20:44 < kanzure> in order to game the fuck out of the system
20:44 < draz|exhausted> lol
20:50 < genehacker> heh reminds me of high school
20:50 < genehacker> we had a network drive for uploading projects
20:50 < genehacker> so one kid comes along and installs a game there
20:50 < genehacker> as a "computer class project"
20:52 < genehacker> disconnecting from hivemind
20:52 < draz|exhausted> lol
20:55 < kanzure> joseph jackson is on fast forward radio blog next week
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21:21 < embraceunity> bryan, loved your most recent post on open manufacturing
21:22 < QuantumG> what'd he say?
21:22 < embraceunity> "Meanwhile, this beautiful, undesigned flower of abundant anarchy
21:22 < embraceunity> unfolds before our eyes, springing up out of the manure of capitalism.
21:22 < embraceunity> What a time to be alive!
21:22 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/English%20III/9-27-06,%20Captivity%20narrative.html
21:22 < kanzure> hey embraceunity 
21:22 < embraceunity> hey
21:23 < kanzure> what on earth does "Mein Treffen mit dem Hallenführer " mean and why was I writing in german?
21:23 < QuantumG> I stopped reading after noticing that many people on there want to post 5 page essays about nothing.
21:23 < genehackerclone> kanzure you must be sleep typing again
21:23 < genehackerclone> maybe you're sleep-learning german
21:23 < kanzure> QuantumG: that's just paul
21:24 < kanzure> nei heiler fullen schazzen!
21:24 < genehackerclone> ???
21:24 < genehackerclone> INCOMPATIBLE DATA FORMAT
21:31 < embraceunity> time to try out rc5... brb
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21:34 < genehackerclone> just read about senator proxmire
21:34 < genehackerclone> damn
21:35 < genehackerclone> we could have space colonies already if it wasn't him
21:35 < genehackerclone> *wasn't for him
21:36 < fenn> i always wondered what happened
21:40 < kanzure> the paper about backtracing individual photocones in the retina wasn't as cool as it could have been
21:40 < genehackerclone> some douche on national television said space colonies are stupid is what happened
21:41 < genehackerclone> btw, a 40 meter blast wave accelerator could shoot stuff into orbit
21:41 < genehackerclone> if that stuff can withstand the 10,000 g
21:41 < genehackerclone> force
21:44 < kanzure> "was it just that in the past people who were too practically disoriented to live sort of disappeared?"
21:45 < genehackerclone> ???
21:48 < kanzure> "proprioception is the sense that indicates whether the body is moving with required effort"
21:48 < fenn> with required effort?
21:49 < fenn> WORK HARDER!
21:49 < genehackerclone> uh
21:49 < genehackerclone> it's also the sense of where your limbs are
21:49 < genehackerclone> we have muscles just to figure out where are arms are
21:50 < fenn> we dont have a sense of where limbs are
21:50 < fenn> no optical encoders, ya know
21:50 < genehackerclone> nope
21:50 < genehackerclone> we got a kludge
21:51 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
21:55 < kanzure> M1 = primary motor cortex
21:57 < kanzure> stereotactical coordinate systems?
21:58 < genehackerclone> ???
21:58 < genehackerclone> you mean a big matrix in our heads with positions of limbs
21:58 < genehackerclone> cool
21:58 < kanzure> oh cool there's a name for it:
21:58 < kanzure> stereotactic frame
21:58 < kanzure> http://www.parkinsons-information-exchange-network-online.com/archive/fig1.jpg
22:00 < kanzure> the rat brain in stereotaxic coordinates: http://www.amazon.com/Rat-Brain-Stereotaxic-Coordinates-Coronal/dp/0120884720
22:00 < kanzure> "brain cartographers" heh
22:01 < fenn> *cough*bullshit*cough*
22:02 < fenn> eh what? that's brain coordinates not limb coordinates
22:02 < kanzure> yes sorry I jumped topics on you
22:02 < fenn> i was deceived by your clone
22:08 < kanzure> http://www.loni.ucla.edu/twiki/bin/view/MouseBIRN/MouseBIRNTools various tools used for parsing 3D brain data for mice
22:08 < kanzure> "This 3D Mouse Atlas (v2.0) is a high-resolution,17.9 micron, isotropic 3D dataset. It is composed of reconstructed Nissl stained sectional material from a freshly frozen brain of an adult male C57BL/6J strain mouse. "
22:09 < genehackerclone> was that brain frozen cryogenically?
22:10 < QuantumG> 17.9 micron
22:11 < QuantumG> .. what can ya see with that... grey matter vs white matter?
22:11 < QuantumG> you're certainly not going to be mapping any circuits
22:12 < genehackerclone> neurons are big
22:12 < genehackerclone> 100 microns wide
22:12  * kanzure does a full rip of http://www.nbirn.net/bdr/data/
22:13 < QuantumG> are dendrites?
22:13 < genehackerclone> don't know
22:16 < QuantumG> On the average, dendrites measured 15-20 microns in length and 0.1-0.3 micron in diameter.
22:16 < genehackerclone> blast
22:16 < genehackerclone> so pretty much useless
22:17 < QuantumG> even if you had fantastic resolution, it'd still be a guessing game.. "first we need to figure out how to cold start this brain" 
22:18 < genehackerclone> reminds me of neural network initializing beam robots
22:18 < genehackerclone> though you could try just firing neurons randomely
22:19 < QuantumG> and that's if you believe the "connectionist" viewpoint taken to a caricature extreme.
22:20 < QuantumG> even the most hardcore connectionist acknowledges the importance of levels of biochemicals 
22:20 < kanzure> QuantumG: nobody ever claimed that having a map of dendrites would be enough to "cold boot" a brain
22:20 < genehackerclone> yup
22:21 < QuantumG> ya, agreed
22:21 < QuantumG> it'd be nice to study
22:21 < kanzure> so where was that coming from
22:21 < kanzure> sounds strawman though
22:21 < genehackerclone> though it's really better if you know how the neurons act then wire them and fire em up
22:21 < fenn> 'cold boot' is ridiculous
22:21 < fenn> just throw some noise into the system
22:22 < QuantumG> nah, not making an argument, just saying there's a lot more data to collect
22:22 < fenn> "how to start a resonator resonating"
22:23 < genehackerclone> woo almost completed my wearable heat exchanger
22:25 < kanzure> ok a backup is on adl:/home/bryan/cache/birn/
22:25 < kanzure> 2.3GB of neuro imagery
22:25 < genehackerclone> of mouse brain or you before the accident?
22:26 < zvader> i wasn't aware of a difference
22:29 < genehackerclone> zvader are you at UT?
22:30 < kanzure> do /whois zvader
22:30 < genehackerclone> he is at UT
22:30 < genehackerclone> @ heckle
22:30 < kanzure> ellington's machine?
22:30 < genehackerclone> perhaps he works with aptamers
22:30 < genehackerclone> yup
22:31 < genehackerclone> I do believe so
22:32 < genehackerclone> btw how did the meeting with cline go?
22:32 < kanzure> http://imaging.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/imaging/MniTalairach MNI v. Talairach coordinate systems for the brain
22:33 < kanzure> "The current standard MNI template is the ICBM152, which is the average of 152 normal MRI scans that have been matched to the MNI305 using a 9 parameter affine transform."
22:33 < kanzure> International Consortium for Brain Mapping http://www.loni.ucla.edu/ICBM
22:34 < kanzure> hm you can download the warp5 atlas: http://www.loni.ucla.edu/ICBM/Downloads/Downloads_452T1.shtml
22:44 < genehackerclone> woohoo my heat exchanger is finished enough to test
22:45 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuronavigation
22:49 < fenn> pics or GTFO
22:50 < kanzure> there's Talairach, MNI, stereotaxic
22:50 < kanzure> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&rls=org.debian%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&um=1&sa=1&q=Talairach+brain&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0
22:50 < fenn> um. i meant the heat exchanger, sorry.
22:50 < kanzure> ooh
22:50 < kanzure> http://www.journalofvision.org/3/10/1/table02.gif
22:50 < kanzure> er, no, those "subjects" must be initials
22:50 < kanzure> not regions :(
22:51 < kanzure> (from the paper Visual field representations and locations of visual areas V1/2/3 in human visual cortex)
22:52 < kanzure> BrainLinks3D looks like what I want: http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~mueller/research/brainMiner/
22:52 < kanzure> "brainminer - to automatically discover brain functions in different regions"
22:52 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-200-16.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:00 < kanzure> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&rls=org.debian:en-US:unofficial&um=1&q=brain+regions+coordinates&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=18
23:00 < kanzure> is google images working for anyone?
23:00 < kanzure> "next page" doesn't seem to work any more
23:01 < fenn> yar
23:08 < fenn> after watching family guy, when reading emails everyone's voice is either stewie or bryan
23:08 < fenn> *sob*
23:13 < kanzure> I need a better way to keep track of brain regions that I learn about or whatever.
23:13 < kanzure> I've been meaning to do something like this for a very long time
23:13 < kanzure> but the problem is that nobody uses 'generic' coordinates or something
23:13 < kanzure> it's always some sort of image averaging algorithm from MRI data or CT data
23:14 < kanzure> now, I don't really need coordinates per-se to reference big blocks of brains
23:14 < kanzure> but it would be useful to give a general location with respect to other regions of the brain, or other connections in the brain (such as the connectome projects)
23:16 -!- embraceunity [n=quassel@74.94.105.238] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:16 < kanzure> hey embraceunity 
23:17 < embraceunity> hello kanzure
23:17 < fenn> back for more eh
23:17 < embraceunity> i can't help it, im an addict
23:17 < fenn> "flower of abundant anarchy" was emlyn oregan
23:18 < embraceunity> ah
23:18 < embraceunity> well it sounded beautiful
23:18 < embraceunity> in any event
23:19 < kanzure> maybe if I try hard enough I can make it seem like I've done some work for tomorrow's meeting
23:19 < fenn> somehow i doubt campbell will be impressed that packages load
23:20 < kanzure> most of the past week has been me making commits, fenn undoing my commits, fenn rewriting my commits, and then me waiting for fenn to stop so that I can get back to using it
23:20 < fenn> the past week being... today.
23:20 < kanzure> nah there was some other code that this happened with
23:20 < kanzure> last saturday
23:20 < kanzure> er, last-last saturday
23:20 < fenn> the lego interface thing?
23:21  * fenn checks the logs
23:21 < kanzure> maybe, but also all sorts of file moving and class moving and general rewriting of the architecture
23:21 < kanzure> some of which was necessary admittedly
23:22 < kanzure> I think campbell will be sufficiently impressed with an interactive python session
23:22 < kanzure> where you say "lego = skdb.load('lego')"
23:22 < fenn> last last saturday was alcor and then receipts data entry
23:23 < fenn> hm really?
23:23 < kanzure> maybe it was the sunday then
23:23 < kanzure> no not really
23:23 < fenn> wah.
23:23 < kanzure> trying to raise my hopes
23:23 < genehackerclone> damn didn't go to alcor
23:23 < genehackerclone> what'd I miss?
23:23 < kanzure> nothing
23:23 < genehackerclone> oh
23:24 < kanzure> they didn't do the training
23:24 < genehackerclone> btw how much does cryopreservation cost?
23:24 < kanzure> for a student? it's cheap
23:24 < genehackerclone> define cheap?
23:24 < kanzure> flat rate $30k for neuro/head preservation, but for a student it's significantly less
23:24 < fenn> there's some way to re-route life insurance towards cryopreservation
23:24 < kanzure> and it's even cheaper with medical coverage
23:24 < fenn> supposedly it's like $15/mo
23:24 < genehackerclone> hmmmm...
23:24 < genehackerclone> I could afford that
23:25 < kanzure> apparently Cryonics Institute (in Europe) is ran entirely by two men
23:25 < kanzure> these are the two most awesome men in the world right now
23:25 < kanzure> because technically their establishment is considered a cemetary
23:25 < genehackerclone> I don't trust cryonics institute
23:25 < fenn> i thought they were in michigan
23:25 < genehackerclone> because they have 2 men
23:25 < embraceunity> cryonics isn't that important
23:25 < embraceunity> in my book
23:25 < embraceunity> but i support your efforts
23:25 < kanzure> it's worth playing around with
23:25 < genehackerclone> what book?
23:26 < fenn> it's sort of like reprap and sexual reassignment surgery
23:26 < embraceunity> hahaha
23:26 < fenn> "neat idea, but does it really work?"
23:26 < genehackerclone> yeah
23:26 < embraceunity> damnit
23:26 < embraceunity> my reprap is just a hobby
23:26 < embraceunity> i knew it
23:27 < kanzure> do not view this page:
23:27 < kanzure> http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRSlink.html
23:27  * fenn attempts to click the link
23:27 < embraceunity> fenn: now j00 got virusez... hahaha
23:27 < genehackerclone> you have a reprap?
23:27 < genehackerclone> does it work?
23:28 < embraceunity> no
23:28 < genehackerclone> blast
23:28 < embraceunity> but im building it
23:28 < embraceunity> the hackerspace by me
23:28 < embraceunity> has 1 working one and one almost working one
23:28 < embraceunity> they promised to lend me a hand
23:28 < genehackerclone> I need to test some printable bearings so I can make a printable stepper motor powered by printable fluidic circuitry
23:29 < embraceunity> that.... is .... awesome
23:29 < fenn> first you need to acquire a printer
23:29 < genehackerclone> the stratasys in the ME building when I get back to school
23:29 < kanzure> embraceunity: did you ever read the microfluidics paper archive
23:29 < fenn> all 5000 pages of it
23:29 < kanzure> or at least parts of it
23:29 < embraceunity> kanzure: joseph told me about it.... link me
23:29 < genehackerclone> kanzure can I transfer some files to you via IRC
23:30 < genehackerclone> I got some good stuff about microfluidics
23:30 < kanzure> embraceunity: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/microfluidics/
23:30 < kanzure> genehackerclone: just upload them to the server
23:30 < genehackerclone> how do I do that?
23:30 < kanzure> take your pick: FTP, SCP, sneakernet
23:30 < genehackerclone> the datafile covering how to ftp stuff in my head has been corrupted
23:30 < genehackerclone> ftp
23:31 < embraceunity> by the way
23:31 < embraceunity> i just bought 10 stepper motors for 2 bucks a pop
23:31 < kanzure> http://www.velnetsupport.co.uk/parrots/FTP/Filezilla/
23:31 < fenn> genehackerclone: what OS are you on?
23:31 < kanzure> filezilla is an ftp extension for firefox
23:31 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-200-16.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"]
23:31 < kanzure> guess you can use that..
23:31 < kanzure> but if you're on ubuntu, there's a better way
23:31 < genehackerclone> ubuntu
23:31 < fenn> you have anonymous ftp upload enabled?
23:31 < genehackerclone> oops winblows right now
23:31 < fenn> er. you do realize that ftp sends passwords in the clear don't you?
23:31 < genehackerclone> oh wait
23:32 < genehackerclone> let me fix that
23:32 < kanzure> ?
23:32 < genehackerclone> time to get my dad's huge cryptoket
23:32 < genehackerclone> it's very hard to crack
23:32 < kanzure> I'll probably be asleep
23:32 < fenn> just use filebin.a
23:32 < fenn> filebin.ca
23:33 < genehackerclone> is it secure
23:33 < genehackerclone> ok good enough
23:33 < genehackerclone> just a bunch of pictures
23:34  * fenn expects weird dreams tonight
23:34 < fenn> i'll tweet about the in the morning!~
23:35 < embraceunity> by the way guys, i just visited factor e farm today... marcin kicked out Jeremy and Ben...
23:35 < embraceunity> if anyone is interested
23:35 < embraceunity> i bet they are looking for new digs
23:36 < fenn> who are jeremy and ben and what's their big deal?
23:36 < embraceunity> jeremy is a total diyh+ er
23:36 < embraceunity> ben is more into agriculture
23:36 < fenn> and how the hell do you get kicked out of a mud hut in the middle of nowhere?
23:36 < embraceunity> haha
23:36 < genehackerclone> it's too big for filebin
23:36 < embraceunity> well Marcin has kicked out a lot of people over time
23:36 < genehackerclone> 57 mb
23:36 < embraceunity> i love him, but I think he is a demanding guy
23:37 < fenn> really.. i thought he was building an army or something
23:37 < genehackerclone> huh?
23:37 < embraceunity> he probably is building an army
23:37 < embraceunity> but it currently consists of him and a 50 something year old austrian woman named Inga
23:38 < fenn> i suppose i should go lay on my pallet and pretend to sleep
23:40 < genehackerclone> upload commencing
23:41 < genehackerclone> http://filebin.ca/ordqrh
23:41 < genehackerclone> get it while it's hot
23:42 < genehackerclone> upload 2 commencing
23:42 < genehackerclone> http://filebin.ca/ayxuh
23:42 < genehackerclone> done
23:44 < genehackerclone> any downloaders?
23:45 < genehackerclone> it has info on microfluidic chemical factories...
23:51 < embraceunity> ok i'll put it on bittorrent
23:51 < embraceunity> haha
23:53 < genehackerclone> just don't link it to me
23:54 < genehackerclone> you can get all the wuffie you want
23:56 < embraceunity> there is some network like Tor for bittorrent
23:56 < embraceunity> i can't remember the name
23:57 < embraceunity> I2P that's it