--- Day changed Tue Sep 01 2009
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04:44 < Utopiah> regarding previous discussion on a standard research format, I guess the pharma industry won't let that, especially with public experiment data, happen ( watching http://www.onlinedocumentaries4u.com/2009/08/money-talks.html that made me think of that)
04:45 < Utopiah> can't even get a standard citation format anyway :/
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07:19 < kanzure> Utopiah: bibtex is a suitable standard citation format
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07:50 < Utopiah> yep and dominating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_reference_management_software#Import_file_formats
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09:12 < kanzure> whois goonie?
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09:42 < kanzure> should an instruction object be a list of strings representing each step (for the human readable version)? or should it be a list of objects that can be called to generate those strings?
09:44 < fenn> i imagine you'd go through one to get the other
09:45 < fenn> second one sounds more flexible
09:47 < kanzure> yes but then I get into this fishy issue where I know that, say, one step is to align two objects into some relative position
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09:47 < kanzure> does this mean I need an Alignment step object?
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09:48 < fenn> OO doesn't work with instructions really
09:48 < fenn> you want an alignment function (method really)
09:48 < fenn> robot.align(stuff)
09:48 < fenn> human.align(stuff)
09:48 < kanzure> yes but you're not supposed to care if it is a robot or not
09:48 < kanzure> Align.robot()
09:49 < kanzure> er
09:49 < fenn> no
09:49 < kanzure> Align.tool(robot)
09:49 < fenn> no
09:49 < fenn> bad programmer
09:49 < fenn> no wonder you hate OO
09:49 < fenn> objects should correspond to physical objects
09:49 < kanzure> robot.align is better
09:50 < kanzure> but why should "align" be a function?
09:50 < kanzure> we want a function for every possible step?
09:50 < fenn> yes, then it's a simple mapping from protocol to functions to output
09:50 < fenn> what else would instructions be for?
09:50 < fenn> list of nouns != instructions
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09:55 < kanzure> human.push() and robot.push() might work in some instances, but when you have a weird tool, "push" might be an ambiguous command .. but not ambiguous to the human object
09:55 < kanzure> so that's why this seems kind of confusing to me
09:55 < kanzure> doesn't seem optimal
10:02 < fenn> try: agent.push(); except StupidityError: human.push()
10:03 < fenn> why would it be ambiguous?
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10:13 < kanzure> because maybe the machine doesn't have a "push" but instead has these weird servo arm mechanisms that don't quite "push" but could be used to push
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10:43 < kanzure> assembly instructions are not quite the same thing as manufacturing instructions I guess
10:45 < fenn> they are
10:45 < fenn> you can split it up any way you want
10:45 < kanzure> machining some metal doesn't follow the same form as assembling two legos
10:47 < fenn> what do you mean 'follow the same form'?
10:47 < fenn> they're both procedures with parameters
10:47 < kanzure> so what if they are procedures?
10:47 < fenn> machine this block with this tool, connect this block to this block
10:47 < kanzure> what actually matters are the tools used to do stuff
10:48 < fenn> procedure is how you tell the agent what to do
10:48 < kanzure> there isn't necessarily an agent
10:48 < fenn> where agent in {human, collection of robots}
10:48 < kanzure> is a kinematic linkage a robot?
10:48 < fenn> of course there's an agent
10:48 < fenn> ok say you have a stamping press
10:49 < fenn> someone has to set up the press right? even if it just runs automatically
10:49 < kanzure> that's a one time setup (hopefully)
10:49 < fenn> they also have to feed it metal, and stop it when it's done
10:49 < kanzure> ok?
10:50 < kanzure> all of the previous 'research' on assembly instructions only considers things being mated together
10:50 < fenn> well, yeah, it's lame
10:51 < fenn> welding is not generally considered "assembly" i guess
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10:54 < fenn> is gluing ever considered "assembly"?
10:57 < fenn> fwiw OCC recognizes these names http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
10:57 < kanzure> sure what about gluing school project models?
10:57 < fenn> that's "craft" not assembly
10:57 < kanzure> craft =~ crap?
10:57 < fenn> i didn't say it :)
11:00 < fenn> igraph is weird but i can't think of a better way to do stuff so i guess i like it
11:05 < drazak_> kanzure: who the fuck is eugen?
11:05 < kanzure> eugen is my alter german ego
11:05 < kanzure> http://eugen.leitl.org/
11:05 < kanzure> he worked on a mind uploading device back in the late 90s
11:06 < kanzure> currently trying to set up a mobile cryogenics lab
11:06 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20080203123957/http://minduploading.org/research.html
11:07 < kanzure> nematode upload project "A collaboration led by Eugene Leitl. Its aim is to achieve the 3D reconstruction and functional emulation of individual specimens of C.elegans from scanned images of the vitrified original. "
11:07 < kanzure> data: http://web.archive.org/web/20070814044636/minduploading.org/research/data.nematodeupload.html
11:22 < parolang> If it helps any, cutting is a different operation than assembling, and both are rather abstract operations and are both involved in manufacturing.  You might want to overload the subtraction and addition operators to represent cutting and assembling, respectively.
11:25 < parolang> (Or if you don't like to call gluing parts together "assembly" you can use "combining" instead.)
11:31 < kanzure> why aren't there any papers on automatically generated instructions for more than assemblies?
11:31 < kanzure> I mean, more than part mating
11:32 < kanzure> there's a field of "process planning" but that's usually just trying to figure out what operations to use
11:32 < kanzure> not necessarily how to represent those operations or anything
11:34 < kanzure> ah maybe "construction" should be the operative keyword here
11:35 < kanzure> IIRC, there's a journal called "Automation in Construction"
11:45 < fenn> parolang: we've had this discussion many times.. i don't think overloading + and - is worthwhile. they don't contain enough information to do anything useful
11:47 < parolang> Alright.  I thought I was saying something new :)  I think I'm just fond of the kind of operator overloading of boolean logic, and thought this was a natural extension of that.
12:27 < fenn> alright why can't i run any OCC GUI stuff now
12:27 < fenn> raise "Please set the CSF_GraphicShr environment variable."
12:27 < fenn> TypeError: exceptions must be classes or instances, not str
12:27 < fenn> i understand the error but i don't know why i never got it before
12:29 < fenn> weird.
12:31 < kanzure> ['align interface stud along the mating axis defined by interface anti stud', 'push anti stud with 10 N along Vector(0.0, 1.0, 0.0)']
12:31 < kanzure> CSF_GraphicShr just randomly became unset?
12:31 < kanzure> is it set to anything? echo $CSF_GraphicShr
12:35 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r c5f601d /doc/proposals/techniques.py: some really bad OOP for treating techniques as objects and spitting out instructions
12:39 < fenn> at least it's in doc/proposals/ so i can just ignore it :)
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12:46 < kanzure> it works doesn't it?
12:46 < kanzure> what's so bad about it?
12:50  * kanzure questions the existence of the witch of agnesia
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13:24 < fenn> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/connection_graph.png
13:24 < drazak_> kanzure: so eugen is cool if a little impolite seeming?
13:27 < drazak_> kanzure: I basically just pasted a protocol from current protocols in molecular biology to the mailing list, oh well
13:38 < kanzure> fenn: what does that png show?
13:39 < kanzure> yes eugen is "cool"
13:42 < kanzure> ok sorry didn't see the other side of the image
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14:16 < kanzure> after analyzing genehacker's timeout log, i've concluded that he has absolutely no pattern whatsoever in his class schedule
14:21 < fenn> timeout is usually just bad wifi
14:21 < fenn> or is it because he's closing his laptop or something?
14:23 < kanzure> he's closing his laptop
14:26 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r d1c4eb5 /geom/geom.py: mate_connection should have no side effects
14:26 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r ddc9e3a / (core/interface.py paths.py): start tracking the connection graph
14:31 < kanzure> why are you dumping graphviz instead of yaml?
14:42 < fenn> yaml sucks at graphs, you said so yourself
14:42 < kanzure> are we really sure we want packages to save their data in graphviz?
14:42 < fenn> no
14:42 < fenn> i just havent figured out a good way to do it yet
14:43 < fenn> bricks don't have identifiers is part of the problem
14:43 < kanzure> maybe we should give them better names
14:43 < fenn> the names are fine
14:43 < kanzure> a name isn't an identifier?
14:44 < fenn> you can have multiple instances of each brick
14:44 < fenn> to make a graph you have to refer to the instance
14:44 < kanzure> right
14:44 < fenn> python has a hash function, so..
14:44 < fenn> uh, it's different for every instance
14:44 < fenn> or we could just trust yaml to keep track of its pointers
14:44 < kanzure> I tried dumping graphs in yaml before 
14:44 < kanzure> and it just looked ugly
14:45 < kanzure> but it worked
14:45 < kanzure> not like I know anyone who modifies graphs by hand anyway
14:46 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 2aa4a1b / (geom/geom.py paths.py): move coincidence_fixer from paths to geom, only connect compatible interfaces
14:46 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r a266c7d / (core/part.py geom/geom.py): go away
14:48 < fenn> igraph isn't yaml-friendly at all
14:53 < fenn> i guess i could just save all the positions and then detect coincidences :P
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15:44 < kanzure> heh the guy who made haas' first product has a wikipedia user account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kurt_Zierhut
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15:50 < kso512> hi
15:51 < kanzure> hey kso512 
15:55 < kso512> hiya...  saw you over on #austin, read some of your site, and am interested in this whole "apt-get sandwich" idea...
15:56 < kso512> not sure how i can help, but i have experience with linux & circuit design...  interested in fabbing ideas
15:56 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 33a08db /gui/gui.py: colored interface arrows
16:05 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 4d185f8 /core/interface.py: igraph del_part
16:05 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r d0df82d / (geom/geom.py paths.py): try to detect mismatched interfaces. doesnt work yet
16:08 < kanzure> kso512: that's great :)
16:08 < kanzure> fenn just committed some code to that btw
16:08 < kanzure> I'm sitting around on the couch in the automated design lab
17:00 < fenn> dunno why i didn't think of it before.. i can sort the xyz coordinates of interfaces, then compare only those in a certain set of slices
17:01 < xp_prg> I think I am going to die, Drew Endy may come to my DIYBIO meeting at the Tech Shop!!!
17:02 < fenn> i hope he slaughters you
17:03 < xp_prg> it would be my honor to be slaughtered by him
17:04  * xp_prg places his neck on the chopping block for Drew Endy
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17:37 < ybit> grrs i want a full cad file for a car
17:38 < ybit> a cad file with all car parts*..
17:39 < ybit> http://72.22.64.51/cgi-bin/csupload/CSUpload.cgi?database=Cars%203D.db&command=viewupload&id=null maybe...
17:49 < ybit> it is occ 6.3 being used in skdb, si?
18:13 < fenn> yes because that's what pythonOCC wants
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19:21 < fenn> that's a lotta smoke http://www.wildfiretoday.com/storage/post-images/Station_Fire_2.jpg http://www.wildfiretoday.com/storage/post-images/Smoke_Map_8-31-2009.jpg
19:47 < drazak_> kanzure: didn't you rattle on one day about TCMS?
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19:53 < kanzure> drazak_: yes?
19:54 < kanzure> drazak_: sorry, I already replied to that email
19:56 < genehacker> does anyone know if peptide microarrays are good for anything?
19:57 < kanzure> peptide affinity?
19:58 < genehacker> what's that?
19:58 < kanzure> figuring out what sticks to peptides
19:58 < genehacker> ok
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19:59 < genehacker2> and NPPOC protected peptosynthesis might be easier than DNA synthesis
19:59 < kanzure> why do you want to do peptosynthesis?
20:01 < genehacker2> well possibly for synthesizing antibodies for proteins we want
20:01 < genehacker2> possibly for testing if something is present in a sample
20:01 < genehacker2> also for lulz
20:02 < genehacker2> it would allow us to test if that maskless lithography thing works
20:03 < kanzure> how about a microscope
20:04 < genehacker2> that's what I want to test
20:06 < genehacker2> http://www.evitamins.com/product_grid2.asp?catID=49
20:06 < genehacker2> wonder if these are pure enough or cheap enough to consider using...
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20:32 < genehacker2> hmmm....
20:33 < genehacker2> going to mars is expensive because of the cost of getting a heavy spaceship with rad shielding into orbit
20:33 < katsmeow-afk> use a damned comet :-/
20:33 < katsmeow-afk> it will supply you with water on the way
20:34 < genehacker2> yeah
20:34 < katsmeow-afk> use a hunk of the moon, there's enough mass there to spare some
20:35 < genehacker2> or use a ram accelerator, whatever it's called to shoot the shielding into orbit
20:35 < genehacker2> after all ramaccelerators aren't really suitable for humans
20:35 < katsmeow-afk> the olde Orion project, but use neutron bombs
20:36 < genehacker2> hardly practical for shooting sats anyway
20:36 < kanzure> How about you build the shielding in orbit?
20:36 < kanzure> what the fuck is wrong with you people?
20:36 < genehacker2> but water or some other form of rad shielding
20:36 < katsmeow-afk> didn't i say that?
20:36 < genehacker2> from what?
20:36 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: yes but you're not a person
20:36 < katsmeow-afk> [20:28] <katsmeow-afk> use a damned comet :-/
20:36 < katsmeow-afk> [20:29] <katsmeow-afk> it will supply you with water on the way
20:36 < kanzure> yes but nobody listens to you
20:36 < katsmeow-afk> [20:29] <katsmeow-afk> use a hunk of the moon, there's enough mass there to spare some
20:37 < katsmeow-afk> my appologies
20:37 < kanzure> :)
20:37 < kanzure> no worries. nobody listens to me either.
20:37 < genehacker2> the ram accelerator thing is one of the cheapest options
20:37 < kanzure> cheap doesn't matter IMHO. you get a lot of benefit for being able to do manufacturing in space.
20:37 < katsmeow-afk> i don't think i would
20:37 < genehacker2> taking out hunks of moon requires building an accelerator on the moon
20:37 < kanzure> also why would you pay for the moon?
20:38 < kanzure> no, you wouldn't have to build an accelerator
20:38 < kanzure> you don't need an accelerator to dig on the earth do you?
20:38 < genehacker2> yeah you don't
20:38 < genehacker2> you want to assemble ships in orbit
20:38 < katsmeow-afk> the moon is a much smaller gravity well
20:38 < genehacker2> from hunks of moon
20:39 < genehacker2> you need to get those hunks of moon in orbit somehow
20:39 < katsmeow-afk> no, you wanna assemble the rad shield from hunks of moon
20:39 < katsmeow-afk> not the ship itself
20:39 < genehacker2> that requires going to the moon
20:39 < genehacker2> a prohibitively expensive option
20:39 < genehacker2> though I wonder
20:39 < genehacker2> if there is enough junk up there in orbit to make a simple radiation shield
20:39 < genehacker2> or at least something semi useful
20:40 < katsmeow-afk> the current space station will be junk in 10 yrs, use it
20:40 < genehacker2> good idea
20:41 < katsmeow-afk> i gotta afk some more, this level of afk isn't enough, bbl
20:41 < genehacker2> hell why not put the shuttle fuel tank into orbit
20:41 < genehacker2> it wouldn't take much
20:42 < genehacker2> I forget the exact figure
20:42 < kanzure> I need more torrents
20:42 < genehacker2> but if one get's it going just a bit faster at the drop off point we could put one in orbit
20:42 < kanzure> any suggestions?
20:43 < genehacker2> you lucky bastard
20:43 < genehacker2> I can't torrent
20:43 < genehacker2> but I can suggest some good stuff that might be worth torrenting
20:43 < genehacker2> what do you want to torrent?
20:43 < kanzure> I just need some trackers
20:44 < genehacker2> would you like a legal torrent to a good videogame?
20:46 < genehacker2> damn
20:47 < genehacker2> shuttle tank weighs 26,500 kg and is made of mostly a lightweight aluminium lithium alloy
20:49 < genehacker2> http://spacestudiesinstitute.wordpress.com/space-art/ssi-sample-slides/
20:49 < genehacker2> here it is
20:51 < genehacker2> http://www.astronautix.com/craft/stsation.htm
20:51 < genehacker2> paper here
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21:34 < ybit> http://tangible.media.mit.edu/projects/ :: Tangible Bits is our vision of Human Computer Interaction (HCI) which guides our research in the Tangible Media Group.
21:44 < kanzure> tell smari :)
21:45 < kanzure> ironically fablab is technically a part of the media lab
21:45 < kanzure> so he should know about that (or at least hypothetically know about that)
21:46 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rss/torrents/
21:46 < kanzure> there's some porn torrent trackers in there, fyi
21:47 < kanzure> I parsed a list of torrent trackers and their rss feeds, so there's bound to be all sorts of stuff in there
21:47 < kanzure> haven't looked at it all yet
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22:48 < kanzure> does anyone remember how to rip mms streams?
22:48 < genehacker2> mms?
22:48 < kanzure> mms://coe-jaguar-video.engr.utexas.edu/mediasitevideo50/13e474ea-d54e-43df-a4ab-568978846c97.wmv?playbackTicket=5a1d99a2a6a544cd939aee7bd16fed90
22:48 < kanzure> yes
22:48 < kanzure> aha
22:48 < kanzure> mplayer mms://url -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.wmv 
22:49 < genehacker2> why are you dumping to .wmv?
22:49 < kanzure> doesn't matter
22:49 < kanzure> anyway, that's how you download class videos
22:52 < genehacker2> for a class you're taking?
22:52 < genehacker2> heh
22:52 < genehacker2> at least you don't have a DRM'd textbook
22:53 < kanzure> so the trick seems to be:
22:53 < kanzure> grep for the link that has FileServer in it
22:53 < kanzure> go to that page
22:53 < kanzure> grep for the link that has "mms://" in it
22:53 < kanzure> then fuck the utexas server
22:54 < genehacker2> btw if you can write me a program that prints 2 pages at a time into a pdf and then prints the next page I'll give you a cookie
22:54 < genehacker2> from the DRM'd book
22:54 < kanzure> I don't understand what you want
22:54 < kanzure> prints 2 pages?
22:54 < kanzure> so, prints into a console?
22:54 < genehacker2> the book only lets me print 2 at a time
22:55 < genehacker2> annoying for a human but not for a program
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23:37 < genehacker> interesting
23:37 < genehacker> the color camer in my laptop is 640 X480
23:38 < genehacker> and the image quality isn't crap
23:39 < genehacker> yet it's small enough to consider putting into ar glasses