--- Day changed Wed Sep 23 2009 00:00 < ybit> A launch loop or Lofstrom loop is a design for a maglev cable transport system for orbital launch that would be around 2,000 km (1,240 mi) long and maintained at an altitude of up to 80 km (50 mi). 00:00 < ybit> where would you put the device, if only it was a little smaller.. 00:02 < ybit> maybe space fountains are the answer, ack, time for bed 00:02 < fenn> kanzure: also i think this should be a wiki page instead of a yaml, but whatever 00:02 < fenn> the thing i never got about launch loops was how to get it started 00:11 < ybit> re: getting something into space. attach a device to a device, after it detects a certain altitude has been reached, it detaches itself and uses nanothrusters to propel itself away from the earth's graviational field?.. 00:11 < ybit> device to a weather balloon* 00:11 < ybit> what's the here and now alt to nanothrusters.. 00:13 < ybit> http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/aero/spacelab/pdf/STAIF_2007.pdf :: Nanoparticle electric propulsion for space exploration 00:13 < ybit> http://data.engin.umich.edu/sets/papers/louisdmJPC2006.pdf :: Nanoparticle Electric Propulsion: Experimental Results 00:14 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thruster list alts 00:20 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 60b0275 /doc/architecture: answered some questions, meddling.. kanzure please look at changes 00:27 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 971391a /doc/architecture: moved stuff around to make more sense and be valid yaml 00:27 < fenn> ybit: "nanothrusters" really? i thought you were better than that.. 00:28 < fenn> mass driver and ion drive has been around for ages 00:29 < ybit> Micropropulsion for small spacecraft 00:29 < fenn> neither will get you to orbit, unfortunately 00:29 < ybit> /me wants 00:33 < fenn> Spacecraft thrusters: electrohydrodynamic (only for use in atmosphere) 00:33 < fenn> am i the only one who sees the contradiction? 00:38 < fenn> MEMS people ought to know better than name something "nanoFET" 00:39 < ybit> sent email to artemis and luf-team 00:39 < ybit> time to get ~6 hours of sleep -_- 00:40 < ybit> gn 00:40 < fenn> the inkjet accelerator idea is interesting 00:40 < ybit> eh? 00:40 < ybit> linky please 00:40 < fenn> mentioned in the paper 00:40 < fenn> charge up a micro droplet and accelerate it 00:42 < ybit> Reliable sources report that there will be a press conference at NASA HQ at 2:00 pm this Thursday featuring lunar scientist Carle Pieters from Brown University. 00:42 < ybit> interesting 00:43 < ybit> The topic of the press briefing will be a paper that will appear in this week's issue of Science magazine wherein results from the Moon Mineralogy Mapper (M3) aboard Chandrayaan-1 will be revealed. 00:43 < ybit> The take home message: there is a lot of water on the Moon. 00:45 < fenn> there was a way to make microdroplets by focusing acoustic waves at a certain spot 00:46 < fenn> so you could use any old metal lying around on the moon or wherever 00:46 < fenn> i mean you don't need to have some super precise silicon MEMS nozzle thingy 00:48 < fenn> fuck now i'm saying "thingy" 00:48 < fenn> damn you kanzure 01:40 -!- any17831208 [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:46 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:28 -!- any99670091 [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:31 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:45 -!- any17831208 [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:29 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:47 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@pool-71-174-184-88.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:05 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:10 -!- any99670091 is now known as katsmeow-afk 06:31 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@pool-71-174-184-88.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:47 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-59-238.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-149-176.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:04 < ybit> fenn: re: w.balloon device. i was looking into hobbyists' rockets last night before nodding off, problem is they can only get you at most ~10km further up 08:05 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-149-176.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-149-176.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:05 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Atmosphere_layers-en.svg 08:07 < ybit> on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_balloon someone mentions lightcraft/laser propulsion to increate your travel distance with the air balloon, but i'm not sure how much further you can go 08:07 < ybit> oh, and the guy made up the ref -_- 08:45 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-105-60.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:45 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-149-176.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:48 < katsmeow-afk> oh and the FAA will bust you royally if your laser propulsion is seen by a pilot 08:52 < genehacker2> I almost got in trouble with the FAA 08:54 < katsmeow-afk> i wanna be doing things that would get me in trouble if they knew 08:56 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-105-60.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:02 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-105-60.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-105-60.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:51 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:56 -!- ve_ [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:00 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:02 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.38.62] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:03 -!- ve_ is now known as ve 10:19 -!- mason_l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:20 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18 < kanzure> hm.. http://utdesign.org/ 11:18 < kanzure> campbell apparently has that until 2017 11:35 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@dhcp-18-111-23-83.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:36 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.38.62] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:48 < kanzure> huh didn't know about "google code university" http://code.google.com/edu/languages/index.html 11:53 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:53 < genehacker> dang, I didn't know you guys had frankloydwright's personality in .zip form 11:57 < kanzure> well we tried putting it into a .rar but it didn't fit 11:57 < kanzure> hm. pydy implements kinematics with sympy. neat. 11:57 < kanzure> in the examples folder there's a bicycle, double pendulum, single pendulum, spherical pendulum, and a fourbar. 12:00 < genehacker> make a lipkin linkage 12:01 < genehacker> also remember kinematics is only half the battle 12:01 < genehacker> got to take those pesky forces into account 12:09 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:13 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 12:23 < kanzure> fenn: what is an "action dependency tree"? per skdb/doc/architecture 12:24 < genehacker> I think it's quite obvious 12:24 < kanzure> it's not 12:26 < xp_prg> genehacker you continuing to study the bio printing stuff? 12:34 < kanzure> recently i have been talking a lot about SPUD, so i guess i'll explain wtf i'm on about 12:34 < kanzure> http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~mdstone/nlg.html#software 12:34 < kanzure> code: http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~mdstone/class/taglet 12:34 < kanzure> old code: http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~mdstone/soft/spud-src.tar.gz 12:35 < kanzure> examples: http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~mdstone/soft/examples.tar.gz 12:35 < xp_prg> I love prolog! 12:35 < xp_prg> tell me more please 12:35 < kanzure> this was the paper that i really really liked on automating maintenance instruction generation: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/instructions/Automating%20maintenance%20instructions%20study.pdf 12:35 < kanzure> at the time i didn't know that it was written by matthew stone or didn't notice that it was using spud 12:36 < kanzure> anyway, the example in that paper near the end is from an f16 manual for replacing a valve or something 12:36 < kanzure> actually for an internal fuel tank vent 12:37 < kanzure> in the paper you see pg 31 (paper's pagination, not the pdf's) 3D rendering of a virtual human actor carrying out the instructions 12:37 < xp_prg> kanzure it may interest you to understand that I am creating a type of expert system using prolog based completely on tree like rules 12:38 < xp_prg> this approach may be similar to what I am doing 12:38 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@dhcp-18-111-23-83.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 12:39 < kanzure> in the examples provided with spud by matthew stone, in demos/motion/eg1.ps you see the same diagrams (except not 3D) 12:39 < xp_prg> it has been my hunch that prolog would be the best way to do what your trying to do but you hate me so I couldn't tell you this 12:39 < kanzure> it turns out that the spud example archive comes with the same problem and the setup files 12:39 < kanzure> unfortunately sml is old and cluggy and a lot of the dependencies (like clm.cm and smlnj-lib.cm) are hard to find 12:40 < kanzure> do you have an implementation of a tree-adjoining grammar or lexical tree-adjoining grammar? 12:40 < xp_prg> no, I am using a decision tree 12:41 < xp_prg> want me to describe to you how it will work, I even have a prototype if you want to see it 12:41 < kanzure> how what will work 12:41 < xp_prg> my approach to solving an expert system using prolog which may benefit your skdb project 12:41 < kanzure> why are you making an "expert system" 12:42 < xp_prg> because it is hard for me to remember all the complex things I have to do at work and other things, this will assist me with that 12:42 < kanzure> so a todo list 12:42 < xp_prg> the end result is a todo list yes 12:43 < xp_prg> but it is a customized todo list based on your "goal" 12:43 < kanzure> honestly i don't think you're capable of anything but if it works it works 12:43 < xp_prg> well guess you don't want to know about it cool 12:43 < kanzure> you just told me about it 12:44 < xp_prg> no I asked you if you wanted to know about it, I haven't told you all about it at all 12:44 < kanzure> you're implementing a tree grammar, what else is there to know 12:44 < xp_prg> I forgot you know it all, hard to help someone who knows it all, that is not what I said or what I am doing 12:45 < kanzure> you said "tree like rules" 12:45 < kanzure> were you lying? 12:45 < xp_prg> no, do you know what a grammar is? 12:45 < kanzure> yep 12:45 < xp_prg> tree like rules != tree grammar 12:46 < kanzure> a grammar is a set of rules 12:46 < xp_prg> a grammar takes a lexicons and validates their syntax 12:47 < xp_prg> anyway, I wish you would be open to other peoples projects and ideas, they could benefit you, your rudeness and inability to listen are not helpful to you 12:47 < kanzure> xp_prg: it's you that i hate 12:48 < kanzure> you're wrong about grammars 12:48 < xp_prg> your loss, I don't care, and could care less 12:48 < xp_prg> no I am not 12:49 < xp_prg> I took automota theory, I built grammars, they validate syntax 12:49 < xp_prg> anyway whatever, its too hard to help you 12:49 < xp_prg> I get insulted for even trying 12:49 < genehacker> THIS LINE OF DISCOURSE IS FRUITLESS PLEASE PROCEED WITH ANOTHER LINE OF DISCOURSE 12:50 < kanzure> i didn't insult you in this conversation 12:50 < genehacker> THIS LINE OF DISCOURSE IS FRUITLESS PLEASE PROCEED WITH ANOTHER LINE OF DISCOURSE 12:50 < xp_prg> I hate you and don't believe you can do anything is not an insult? 12:50 < kanzure> nope 12:50 < kanzure> that means i hate you 12:51 < fenn> why are you talking to him 12:51 < kanzure> because i'm stupid 12:51 < fenn> no don't answer that 12:51 < xp_prg> by the way I am meeting with synbio people again, don't need you, don't care, I will soon know quite a bit more than you do 12:51 < fenn> anyway an action dependency tree is the same as the recipe tree 12:51 < kanzure> a recipe is a tree? 12:52 < fenn> you usually follow the critical path 12:52 < genehacker> hey guys why not have a dictionary of terms you created? 12:52 < xp_prg> fenn you know prolog? 12:52 < fenn> what is 'skdb hard get' supposed to do differently from 'skdb soft get'? you never answered 12:52 < genehacker> it'll probably make things better 12:52 < kanzure> fenn: software versus software+hardware 12:52 < kanzure> software as in "skdb representation" 12:52 < fenn> but it's all software 12:53 < kanzure> genehacker: we haven't made any new terms to be honest 12:53 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@dhcp-18-111-63-138.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:53 < kanzure> fenn: "skdb hard get" should mean it adds instructions to the queue to physically build stuff though 12:53 < kanzure> and once you complete that, it's "fully installed" 12:53 < kanzure> or it may involve ordering from a supplier 12:53 < fenn> what does 'skdb build' do then? 12:53 < kanzure> hm maybe i haven't though this through yet 12:54 < fenn> i think you just just say 'skdb build' which automatically invokes 'skdb get' if necessary 12:54 < kanzure> you added "assembly dependencies", does that mean we need something like 'skdb assemble' which is not the same as 'skdb build'? 12:54 < kanzure> this is confusing, which one is "primary" 12:54 < kanzure> or are they just co-existing commands 12:54 < fenn> the depth parameter was like how many levels deep to get dependencies.. i.e. "do i need to fetch instructions for smelting steel?" 12:55 < fenn> if you call 'skdb assemble foo' it looks at whether you will build or buy it 12:55 < fenn> if you build it then it calls 'skdb build foo' 12:56 < kanzure> i need a consistent list of which commands do what 12:56 < genehacker> can it determine if you should build or buy standard parts? 12:56 < fenn> following this line of thought i'm not sure what 'get' is supposed to mean 12:56 < kanzure> right now i'm partly reading what you say and partly what i remember, but who cares 12:56 < genehacker> if yes you got something useful 12:56 < kanzure> as long as the interface is self-consistent 12:56 < kanzure> this just seems "trivial" to me 12:56 < kanzure> i mean, i don't actually care what it's called for doing each "mode" 12:57 < fenn> fair enough 12:57 < fenn> i just don't want to end up with something ugly 12:57 < kanzure> sure 12:57 < kanzure> i don't think this will influence the backend 12:58 < kanzure> instruction generation is still the remaining thorny issue 12:59 < fenn> there's more to it than just translating actions to natural language 12:59 < kanzure> i was thinking that for the "build" mode of a certain package, it would call the "instruction generation for build mode" for each of the packages it lists in the "build dependencies" 12:59 < kanzure> i agree, the translation part isn't of concern to me at the moment 12:59 < fenn> there's also a whole operations research resource planning alogorithm layer that we haven't even talked about 13:00 < fenn> so like if your robot is busy you'd have to do it by hand 13:00 < fenn> or not, depending on preferences 13:00 < kanzure> that sounds like it comes later 13:00 < genehacker> sounds like what they do on floor 5 etc 13:00 < kanzure> there should be Screw.build or something, and it generates instructions based off of all of the build-time dependencies of Screw, plus special knowledge encoded into the screw.py class 13:00 < kanzure> (this would be for "skdb build screw") 13:01 < fenn> i still don't really know how to specify a particular part in a package 13:01 < kanzure> in Screw.build, the "special" or "new" knowledge provided by the screw package would be represented as Action objects and various manipulations on them 13:01 < kanzure> what's wrong with Package("screw").parts[0] ? 13:01 < fenn> skdb build Package("screw").parts[0] ? 13:02 < fenn> that's awful 13:02 < kanzure> do screws in the source data in the screw package have any particular names? 13:02 < fenn> there is a method for parsing a screw description 13:02 < kanzure> hm, they presently do not 13:03 < fenn> like 1/4-20x3 13:03 < genehacker> add thread 13:03 < kanzure> i find it weird that in screw/data.yaml and lego/data.yaml there's no names for any of the parts 13:03 < fenn> but there's more to it.. i guess you really want to specify a catalog number 13:03 < genehacker> catalog number? 13:04 < kanzure> if there was something like "in data.yaml there is cool-screw, usual-screw, bad-screw, funny-screw", then you would say "skdb build screw funny-screw" 13:04 < fenn> i think lego should eventually use either ldraw + color or lego company number 13:04 < kanzure> actually how about this 13:04 < fenn> there's no mapping from ldraw to lego numbers though 13:04 < genehacker> when I want a screw, I usually ask for a certain size, style, and thread 13:04 < kanzure> "skdb build screw" calls Screw.build, and the "build" method gets the next parameter on the CLI args list 13:04 < kanzure> then it can parse it however it wants 13:04 < kanzure> so in the case of a screw it could be some technical specification 13:05 < kanzure> in the case of a lego it could be a lego group id number or ldraw id 13:05 < genehacker> yeah 13:05 < fenn> so.. in general what does this mean? 13:05 < fenn> say i'm sitting down to make something 13:05 < kanzure> you wanted to specify a particular part 13:05 < fenn> do i have to look at the documentation for each package just to use it? 13:05 < kanzure> this is how you specify a particular part to the "skdb build" program 13:06 < kanzure> no 13:06 < kanzure> "skdb build screw" should result in a generic unspecified screw 13:06 < fenn> how can you build a generic screw? 13:06 < kanzure> the "default" of the screw package 13:06 < kanzure> whatever Screw.__init__ says is a default screw 13:06 < fenn> why a default? that's useless 13:06 < kanzure> well why don't you know what you're doing? 13:06 < fenn> because you're a clueless newbie 13:07 < fenn> you want a list of stuff that's available to tab through 13:07 < kanzure> you're probably following instructions though 13:07 < fenn> bah 13:07 < kanzure> you'd not be following instructions? 13:07 < fenn> no 13:07 < fenn> what kind of newbie are you? 13:07 < kanzure> :( 13:07 < kanzure> i guess "skdb build screw" could spit out some options for you 13:08 < fenn> gnu readline can do all the tab completion stuff 13:08 < genehacker> skdb build M8 machine screw stainless steel 13:08 < kanzure> m8? 13:08 < fenn> sigh 13:08 < genehacker> it's metric screw size 13:08 * kanzure checks skdb 13:08 < kanzure> 120ksi? 13:09 < genehacker> NO 13:09 < genehacker> NO 13:09 < genehacker> NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 13:09 < genehacker> that's not metric 13:09 < genehacker> BAD 13:09 < genehacker> kips square inch 13:09 < genehacker> BAD 13:10 < genehacker> sorry for the outburst but the imperial system of measurements is driving me iasne 13:11 < kanzure> i don't know how to implement tab completion in this context 13:12 < kanzure> what i was hoping to talk about though was how the Screw.build method would be written 13:12 < kanzure> consisting of calls to other packages' .build methods, plus "new information" provided by the screw package 13:12 < kanzure> which i guess would be made up of Action, CompoundAction, PrimitiveAction objects or something? 13:12 < kanzure> and then you just return a list of these actions in a sequence ? 13:13 < kanzure> (and this is then converted into either human readable text or machine code depending on the requested output, but we get to ignore this for now) 13:13 < fenn> "just" 13:13 < kanzure> return my_list 13:13 < fenn> it's not a list, it's a tree 13:13 < fenn> you have to find the critical path 13:13 < fenn> ffs look up critical path 13:13 < kanzure> what are the branches in the tree 13:13 < fenn> the different things you have to do 13:14 < kanzure> er, what are the nodes? 13:14 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has quit [] 13:14 < fenn> we can add the flour to the salt, or the butter to the sugar 13:14 < fenn> where you combine stuff 13:15 < kanzure> are those two actions interchangeable, or they can be done in any order? 13:15 < fenn> they could be done in any order 13:16 < kanzure> so multiple branches means multiple things that can be done in no particular ordre 13:16 < kanzure> *order 13:16 < fenn> right 13:17 < kanzure> then build() should return a list of branch objects 13:19 < fenn> can you think of any recipes that are graphs? 13:19 < fenn> all i can come up with is separating egg yolk :( 13:19 < kanzure> this is not a skill i'm familiar with 13:21 < kanzure> a recipe has to preserve causality 13:21 < kanzure> so a directed graph would mean that you end up with a step that is impossible 13:21 < kanzure> (and an undirected graph representing a recipe would be useless) 13:23 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:25 < fenn> directed != cyclic 13:25 < kanzure> if it doesn't connect back on itself then it's just a tree 13:25 < fenn> imagine you're making a meringue cake 13:25 * kanzure goes to martha-stewart-unlimited.com 13:25 < fenn> the yolk goes into the cake batter, and the whites go into the meringue 13:25 < fenn> they come from the same egg 13:26 < fenn> you don't start off with a yolk you start with an egg 13:26 < fenn> then the ingredients eventually get recombined into a cake 13:26 < fenn> that's a graph 13:26 < kanzure> i think the actions should be the nodes 13:26 < fenn> why? 13:27 < fenn> the way i think of it, actions are edges and states are nodes 13:27 < genehacker> we want to be cyclic in the future 13:29 < genehacker> but if you're making cake 13:29 < genehacker> that's not necessary 13:30 < kanzure> if actions are nodes, you get to have subactions and weird graphs making up these "actions" 13:30 < kanzure> this is more of an aesthetic argument 13:30 < fenn> genehacker: no you don't want a cyclic recipe, that violates causality 13:30 < kanzure> 1. submit article to slashdot 13:31 < kanzure> 2. get it to the front page 13:31 < kanzure> 3. ??? 13:31 < kanzure> 4. profit 13:31 < kanzure> 5. submit article to slashdot 13:31 < kanzure> i think i did that wrong 13:31 < fenn> yes 13:32 < kanzure> i view recipes and instructions as just another form of computer code (except we want a particular language to be spit out in the end) 13:32 < kanzure> so when i think about code, i visualize the statements as nodes 13:32 < genehacker> I do 13:32 < kanzure> aren't there graph-representations of programs? 13:32 < genehacker> I WANT A CYCLIC RECIPE! 13:33 < genehacker> because if it's cyclic it's a replicator 13:33 < kanzure> http://www.totalviewtech.com/support/documentation/tips/images/CallGraph.png 13:34 < kanzure> http://pycallgraph.slowchop.com/ 13:36 < fenn> genehacker: no you're wrong 13:36 < fenn> genehacker: that's a cyclic dependency/functionality graph 13:36 < fenn> genehacker: a replicator "recipe" would just keep scrolling down the page forever 13:38 < kanzure> we keep running into this problem in different domains 13:38 < kanzure> trouble deciding which is the node and which is the edge 13:39 < kanzure> (and somehow i always seem to have the opposite stance as you?) 13:39 < fenn> it's usually obvious after you think about it for a while 13:39 < fenn> if you have multiple "thingies" connected to one thingie, the multiples should be the arcs 13:40 < kanzure> so you think that the edges should be the actions and the nodes are states? 13:40 < fenn> a state is a single thingie 13:40 < fenn> you can have multiple simultaneous actions leading to a state 13:40 < fenn> so, which one is the arc? 13:40 < kanzure> "multiple simultaneous actions" could just be a single action 13:40 < fenn> (i hate calling it arc btw, just shows how far campbellism has rotted my brain) 13:41 < kanzure> i'm still an edge fan :) 13:41 < fenn> ok please describe the opposite then 13:42 < kanzure> each node is an action (possibly a compound action) 13:42 < fenn> where somehow an action is a node and (something?) is the edge 13:42 < kanzure> the edge just tells you what's next 13:42 < kanzure> the edge either is "away" or "to" the current node 13:42 < fenn> why bother with the edge then 13:42 < fenn> just a series of actions 13:42 < kanzure> how would you connect actions or steps? 13:42 < fenn> magical nothingness 13:42 < kanzure> because it's not a series, it could be in parallel 13:43 < kanzure> i.e., you get your list of edges pointing "away" 13:43 < kanzure> and that's a list of different things you can be doing in no particular order 13:43 < fenn> i still don't follow 13:43 < fenn> edges pointing away? 13:43 < kanzure> an edge is directed, it has a direction 13:44 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:44 < fenn> concrete example please 13:44 < kanzure> consider two nodes: make screw, assemble plastic crap 13:44 < kanzure> in this case "make screw" (node 1) must point to the other one 13:44 < kanzure> going the other way around would be useless 13:44 < kanzure> (or impossible) 13:45 < fenn> how do you know that? 13:45 < kanzure> well in this case i'm assuming the plastic crap is assembled with a screw 13:45 < fenn> you have no record of state so you don't know whether the screw exists or not 13:45 < kanzure> no we assume that you're following the steps and actually doing it 13:46 < fenn> but how do you know you have to make the screw first before assembling something else? 13:46 < kanzure> because that's what the build() instructions tell you to do 13:46 < fenn> well how do they know it?? 13:46 < fenn> you see what i'm getting at? 13:46 < kanzure> no 13:47 < fenn> i dont want to have to program a whole crapload of assumptions into the system 13:47 < fenn> it should be able to figure out what order the steps go in 13:47 < kanzure> what steps? 13:47 < fenn> the actions 13:47 < kanzure> where are the actions written down? 13:47 < fenn> in some code somewhere 13:48 < fenn> in a dict of functionalities provided by that package 13:49 < kanzure> alright so i can see the benefit of having states 13:50 < kanzure> but, you could just pass the entire "tree" up to that point to the next node (action) and say, "this is what you have. whatever this builds, this is what you have" 13:50 < kanzure> so it's just passing the overall "scene" (what's being manipulated) 13:51 < kanzure> why does the "state" have to be a node or related to the graph at all, is what i'm asking 13:51 < fenn> because actions transform states 13:51 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-102-131.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:52 < fenn> otherwise you're going from nowhere to nowhere, and passing along your memory on the side 13:53 < fenn> that's just whack 13:53 < kanzure> states in a tree don't make sense because the branches represent "different actions", so how can you have two different states under different branches 13:54 < fenn> i feel like i missed some computer science class that would have provided me with the words to totally obsolete this argument 13:55 < fenn> well the states would be incomplete.. i.e. only keep track of the diffs 13:55 < fenn> maybe i shouldnt have said that 13:56 < fenn> i'm still trying to figure out what you just said 13:56 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@dhcp-18-111-63-138.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 13:56 < kanzure> you can do either "group of actions #1" or "group of actions #2", these are two branches in your tree. under these branches, as you follow them donw, you have nodes that represent the states 13:57 < kanzure> *down 13:57 < fenn> ok 13:57 < kanzure> but there's really only one state isn't there? 13:57 < fenn> no 13:57 < fenn> say you have two cooks 13:57 < fenn> you could follow both branches at the same time right? 13:58 < kanzure> yes 13:58 < fenn> what if one cook lags behind a little bit, does it matter? 13:58 < fenn> no, the two branches are independent causal domains 13:58 < kanzure> ok 13:58 < fenn> what if you did one branch first and then the other branch? what if you did it the other way around? 13:58 < fenn> you end up with the same thing 13:59 -!- jonathan__ [n=jonathan@66-90-167-249.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 13:59 < fenn> if you ignore everything that isn't being changed (not in the causal domain) then the states are identical regardless what order you do them 14:00 < kanzure> sure 14:01 < fenn> making apple pie; the state on the crust branch ignores the apples; likewise the apple cutting branch ignores the crust making 14:01 < fenn> but when you combine the apples and the crust you have to keep track of both of them 14:01 < fenn> what is this principle called? 14:06 < kanzure> is merging two states an action? 14:06 < kanzure> (when you have to keep track of both of them) 14:06 < fenn> yes 14:06 < fenn> merging states is not an action in its own right; its a consequence of an action which uses things from both states 14:07 < kanzure> an action is an edge though? 14:08 < kanzure> i guess you can have two actions dangling off of each state, and they both point to a node (the merged state) 14:08 < fenn> you mean one action dangling off each state 14:08 < kanzure> yes sorry 14:08 < fenn> crust on the left, apples on the right 14:08 < fenn> one edge from each to the filled crust 14:09 < fenn> the apples would be 'added' and i guess the crust would be instructed to "just sit there and enjoy it, dammit" 14:09 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:11 < fenn> the thing i dont like about the compucook recipe tree is it has both ingredients and actions as nodes 14:13 < kanzure> is cooking assembly? 14:14 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-102-131.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14 < fenn> not entirely 14:14 < kanzure> do you build or assemble a sandwich? 14:15 < fenn> in fact i'd say it's mostly "aggregation" 14:15 < fenn> a sandwich has some structure 14:15 < fenn> mashed potatoes do not 14:18 < kanzure> ok so we call some_package's "build" method, it calls all of the build methods (in some order) for the packages it depends on, and adds in a little extra information (other Action objects or something) to connect the graph or tree together 14:19 < fenn> some methods (assembly for example) would call multiple build methods.. that's what connects the tree together 14:20 < fenn> so pie.build() calls crust.build() and apples.build() 14:20 < fenn> as well as some other stuff like 'throw it all together' 14:20 < kanzure> i could imagine that if a package depends on X and Y, the build method might look like this: "state1 = X.build(); state2 = Y.build(); retu" 14:20 < kanzure> and then combine the two states somehow with an action 14:21 < xp_prg> my way is sooooo much simpler than this 14:21 < xp_prg> just fyi 14:21 < fenn> go away 15:34 < kanzure> fenn: http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/action.py 15:35 < kanzure> i think ##resulting_tree.add(crust) should be uncommented 15:35 < kanzure> and the "workspace" that i talk about above that (line 39) is not the same as WorkSpace or WorkSurface or whatever 15:36 < kanzure> ok fixed 15:38 < kanzure> hm there's no order specification going on here 15:51 -!- Utopiah [n=libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:00 -!- Utopiah [n=libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:45 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@pool-71-174-184-88.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:53 -!- jonathan__ [n=jonathan@66-90-167-249.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:58 < kanzure> reactome.org survey http://tinyurl.com/l48zzq 17:03 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 17:03 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(human_modeling) 17:06 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-102-131.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:44 * drazak sets up 48 tubes of pcr 17:49 < kanzure> lame 17:51 < genehacker> duck? 18:03 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:06 < kanzure> http://monsterden.net/software/ragdoll-pyode-tutorial 18:12 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-102-131.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31 < xp_prg> use the blender bullet physics engine 18:31 < xp_prg> it has a python interface 18:31 < xp_prg> it is way better 18:37 -!- nalioth [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:39 < nalioth> kanzure: what's this channel about? 18:41 < kanzure> we're making "apt-get but for hardware", so it's mostly development and some mad science musings 18:41 < nalioth> are you developers? 18:41 < kanzure> yes 18:42 < nalioth> developers for hplusroadmap, i mean . . 18:42 < kanzure> yeah 18:42 -!- mquin [i=mike@freenode/staff/mquin] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:43 < nalioth> hi mquin 18:43 < nalioth> kanzure: submitting the GRF will get you ops in the channel, at least (if the GRF can be validated) 18:44 < nalioth> with a fully researched and completed GRF, you'll have cloaks and such, too 18:45 < kanzure> does the "request type" page have to be filled out? 18:45 < nalioth> all the fields should be filled in 18:46 < kanzure> "Approved By"? 18:46 < kanzure> ah, nevermind 18:47 < kanzure> okay thanks, it's in the queue now 19:15 < drazak> my pippeting hand cramped :S 19:17 < kanzure> isn't this what robots are for? 19:17 < drazak> we have no robots 19:17 < drazak> I depressed the pipette button ~1000 timese today 19:17 < kanzure> what university again? brown? 19:17 < drazak> university at buffalo 19:18 < kanzure> right right 19:18 < kanzure> nevermind 19:18 < drazak> anyway, afk, going home 19:34 < drazak> back 19:47 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:12 < kanzure> http://download.gna.org/cal3d/skeleton-low.avi 20:21 < kanzure> http://www.py3d.org/pycal3d 20:21 -!- ncravens [n=chatzill@s66-76-64-254.nacdcmta01.ncgdtx.tl.sta.suddenlink.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:22 < ncravens> heyers! 20:22 < ncravens> so who's here to pwn me? 20:22 < ncravens> or what's pwn'n on? 20:23 < ncravens> so yes... manufacturing all of manufacturing knowledge applied to one setting. 20:23 < ncravens> what about that business?! 20:24 < ncravens> all you folks upload already or something? :P 20:25 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@pool-71-174-184-88.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:25 < drazak> who are you 20:26 < ncravens> is that really important? ;p 20:26 < ybit> nathan cravens from om,biybio, and a poet on diyh+ iirc 20:26 < ncravens> my name is nathan cravens and I'm a coffeeholic 20:26 < ncravens> thanks ybit 20:26 < kanzure> ncravens: just looking at cal3d 20:26 < drazak> oh right 20:26 < ncravens> what's that cal3d business? 20:26 < drazak> you're /that/ nathan 20:27 < ncravens> the GOOD one? ;p 20:27 < drazak> I dunno 20:27 < ncravens> must I perform a series of futile tasks to prove it?! 20:27 < genehacker> oh dear 20:27 < ncravens> ;p 20:28 < genehacker> I believe it's time for my daily caffeine injection 20:28 < ncravens> damn, that's hardcore !! 20:29 < genehacker> not really 20:29 < genehacker> it was a joke 20:29 < genehacker> if you inject caffeine into your blood stream 20:29 < genehacker> shakes set in faster 20:29 < drazak> hah 20:29 < drazak> actually iirc 20:30 < drazak> the more efficient adenosine antagonists are the metabolites, which means it has to go through the liver, so it's only a little bit faster 20:30 < ncravens> yes. that is a very vital aspect of transhumanism. 20:31 < genehacker> anyway you came here to get pwn'd? 20:31 < genehacker> on what? 20:32 < ncravens> kanzure, dis this one ur tinkern with? : Jump to: navigation, search 20:32 < ncravens> Cal3D is a skeletal animation based 3D character animation library written in C++ in a platform-/graphic API-independent way. Originally designed to be used in a 3D client for Worldforge, it evolved into a stand-alone product which can be used in many different kinds of projects. It supports combining animations and actions through a "mixer" interface, and work is currently underway to... 20:32 < ncravens> ...integrate morph targets (interpolating between one mesh and another, using the same vertex sequence) easily into the system. 20:32 < ncravens> yeah. pwn me. 20:33 -!- ybit_ [i=ybit@dhcp-84-36.me.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:33 < ncravens> pwnd on whatever is relevant, I suppose 20:33 -!- ybit_ [i=ybit@dhcp-84-36.me.utexas.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34 < genehacker> huh? 20:34 < genehacker> what are we investigating that for? 20:34 < ncravens> because, we keep insisting we must! 20:36 < ncravens> so what does ncravens and Cal#k3D have to do with things? 20:37 < ncravens> or what does Cal3D do with skdb? 20:37 < ncravens> what is skdb? ;p 20:41 < genehacker> THAT'S CLASSIFIED 20:43 < ybit> i find that telling people skdb is a super secret project to build a robot which follows my commands like kick the person where it hurts, the person tends to listen a lot better ;) 20:44 < ncravens> hehe 20:44 < genehacker> uh ybit, do you really go around telling people that? 20:46 < ybit> genehacker: all the time ;) 20:46 < ncravens> the folk in media ecology I've talked to don't seem to like to describe what 'it' is either cuz it too involves EVERYTHING, but that would be defining it now wouldn't it? ;p So we must discuss instead some aspect of it if it is worth discussing. . . its worth dependent on the problem encountered at the time, I suppose. 20:46 < ybit> just ask the audience from the crowd in huntsville, right strages and nykodemus? :P 20:46 < ncravens> huntsville teexxaas? 20:47 < ybit> er, no. /me is borowwing the ut connection 20:47 < ybit> borrowing, w/e 20:47 < kanzure> nathan why are you talking to media ecology people 20:49 < ncravens> cuz they thought I knew something 20:50 < genehacker> about? 20:50 < ncravens> hehe. I've only had a few messages with Matthew Fuller, that's the only media ecology person I've had communication with. 20:51 < ncravens> I'm co-conspiring with Phoebe Moore and Michel Bauwens a workshop of that title, Media Ecology. 20:51 < genehacker> what do you do nathan? 20:51 < ncravens> It goes down in Manchester, Nov 3. 20:51 < ncravens> as a profession? 20:52 < genehacker> yeah sure 20:52 < ncravens> I am a petty capitalist and recieve land rents for a house I sold. 20:52 < ncravens> but that doesn't tell you much, does it? ;p 20:52 < kanzure> nathan did you read the wiki page or have any questions about it? 20:53 < ncravens> I read the wiki page sometime ago. 20:53 < ncravens> has you revised it much in the past few months? 20:53 < kanzure> here and there 20:53 < genehacker> so you do h+ 20:53 < ncravens> aiiight. I'll take a peep at it. 20:54 < drazak> arrr shiver me timbers kanzure 20:54 < ncravens> you directn that h+ business my way genehacker? 20:54 < drazak> kanzure: one of my coworkers is probably raping heybryan right now 20:54 < kanzure> so is everyone else 20:55 < ncravens> I hear rape is a challenging sport. 20:55 < drazak> :P 20:55 < drazak> you need to put it on adl 20:55 < drazak> the htdocs/books/ atleast 20:55 < kanzure> right 20:55 < drazak> how big is htdocs/books/? 20:56 < kanzure> close to 670 GB 20:56 < drazak> holyfuck 20:57 < kanzure> a lot of the good stuff isn't on /books 20:57 < drazak> yeah 20:57 < drazak> where is it? 20:57 < kanzure> it's this weird symlink thing 20:57 < drazak> ah right 20:57 < kanzure> well the rest isn't available over the web 20:57 < kanzure> only certain things are linked into /books/ 20:57 < kanzure> if you take a look at the index of it, you'll see some of the folders 20:58 < kanzure> but that's not the actual representation of the hdd 20:58 < kanzure> check this out: 20:58 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/file-lists/ 20:58 < kanzure> for instance: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/file-lists/leibniz-mnt-maxtor-software 20:59 < drazak> can you send me some music? 20:59 < ybit> how's that transfer of data to adl coming along? 20:59 < kanzure> ybit: um, it'll happen tomorrow 20:59 < drazak> you have some crap music 20:59 < kanzure> drazak: all 130 GB of it? 20:59 < drazak> :D 20:59 < drazak> nah, not all of it 21:00 < drazak> just a few artists 21:00 < ybit> just 129gb 21:00 < ybit> so we're fucked in getting to outerspace :-\ 21:00 < genehacker> durr 21:01 < ybit> at least the doing it yourself approach, unless you want to spend your entire life focused on it 21:01 < ybit> couldn't hurt to think about it though 21:01 < genehacker> well you can use nuclear propulsion 21:01 < genehacker> I found a source of weapons grade plutonium 21:01 < ybit> yeah, let me go get that from my parts lying around the house o.O 21:02 < ybit> genehacker: did you now? where was it hiding? 21:02 -!- ncravens_ [n=chatzill@s66-76-64-254.nacdcmta01.ncgdtx.tl.sta.suddenlink.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:02 < genehacker> there's only one problem though 21:02 < genehacker> it's underwater 21:02 < ybit> can i has 200km of extra propulsion for my weather balloon? 21:03 < ncravens_> hehe. who's using my name? 21:03 < genehacker> in a sunken nuclear submarine that was carrying nuclear torpedoes 21:03 < drazak> easy e, beck, 3 doors down, ACDC, Flogging Molly, your infected mushroom, pearl jam, R.E.M. 21:03 < ybit> genehacker: oh right, you went diving 21:03 < drazak> oh and smashing pumpkins 21:03 < kanzure> drazak: that was from the ellington lab server 21:03 * ybit still wants to do that 21:03 < kanzure> that's what they listen to while pipetting 21:03 < genehacker> hmm... don't listen to that type of music 21:03 < genehacker> no I found a source of plutonium 21:03 < ybit> Flogging Molly, hehe, haven't heard them in awhile 21:04 < drazak> kanzure: sounds like me :P 21:04 < drazak> kanzure: audioslave for an hour of pipetting 21:04 < drazak> could you get me those artists though? 21:04 < genehacker> I listen to chiptunes and videogame music 21:04 < drazak> my waffle and what accounts lapsed 21:04 < ybit> enrique iglesias for an hour of soldering, anyone? ;) 21:04 < drazak> god no 21:05 < drazak> my soldering music is much like my pipetting music 21:05 < ybit> fuck you drazak, i never liked you anyway! ;P 21:05 < drazak> rofl 21:05 < ncravens_> ff7 score. omg ;p 21:06 < ybit> the metal gear solid soundtrack is nice, but my fav soundtrack atm: star trek the movie 21:06 < genehacker> my favorite soundtrack is the soundtrack to Einhander 21:06 < ybit> and the third matrix is mostly orchestral 21:07 < ncravens_> schindlers list ... gladiator ... solaris ... matrix soundtrack was damn good, that composer was born to score it... anything by Cliff Martinez I like. We're both drummers and into minimalism. 21:08 < drazak> matrix soundtrack was good 21:08 < drazak> hackers soundtrack was crap 21:08 < ncravens_> havnt seen that one 21:08 < genehacker> HACK THE PLANET! 21:08 < ncravens_> #@K 21:08 < drazak> :P 21:08 < genehacker> there is one good song from the hackers sound track 21:09 < genehacker> wait is that on kanzure's server? 21:10 < ncravens_> a bunch of damn silliness if you ask me. 21:10 < drazak> genehacker: yeah I think I have it somewhere 21:11 < ybit> no seeders for the Einhander soundtrack, it sounds decent 21:12 < genehacker> it's hard to find 21:12 < genehacker> it's pretty good though 21:12 < genehacker> I stream it 21:12 < ybit> first result from einhander soundtrack: http://downloads.khinsider.com/game-soundtracks/album/einhander-original-soundtrack 21:12 < ybit> you can download the entire album, just have to register, bah 21:13 < genehacker> is that legal? 21:13 < drazak> rofl 21:13 < ncravens_> everythings legal these days . 21:13 < drazak> what console was the game on 21:13 < genehacker> I'm in a dorm and they sniff packets 21:13 < ncravens_> grand theft auto? 21:13 < drazak> plastation? 21:13 < genehacker> I think the playstation one 21:13 < ncravens_> the plantation station? 21:14 < genehacker> I guess that was long ago 21:14 < drazak> my chiptunes friend doesn't have chiptunes for it 21:15 < genehacker> huh? 21:17 -!- ncravens [n=chatzill@s66-76-64-254.nacdcmta01.ncgdtx.tl.sta.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17 < ncravens_> didn't even say hello :( 21:17 < ncravens_> bye alter-me ... I hope we're friends! 21:18 < genehacker> ybit how high do you need to get to get something into space from a balloon? 21:18 < genehacker> you might consider rockoons 21:19 * kanzure wakes up 21:19 < ncravens_> kanzure uploaded! omg! ;p 21:20 < kanzure> ncravens_: did you want to actually talk about something? 21:20 < ncravens_> yes. manufacturing everything in one place 21:20 < kanzure> what is a place 21:21 < genehacker> are you questioning the possibility of that? 21:21 < ncravens_> a room . 21:21 < kanzure> why a room? 21:21 < ncravens_> no I want that in practice 21:21 < kanzure> why not two rooms? 21:21 < genehacker> because I question it too 21:21 < ncravens_> it could be two rooms, just near ... 21:21 < ncravens_> at least accessable from one place. 21:21 < genehacker> how about something the size of a city ncravens? 21:21 < ncravens_> so it could embody the damn universe I suppose 21:21 < genehacker> a city 21:22 < ybit> genehacker: here's a relevant drawing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Atmosphere_layers-en.svg 21:22 < genehacker> besides there's noway to fit a steel I-beam continous casting machine in your garage, unless you have a DAMN BIG GARAGE 21:22 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 21:23 < ncravens_> a village, a star trek replicator, whatever. but the point is I'd like to discuss having something made after I've requested it online. If notin but bots and land rights are okay-doh-kay then we gets ourselves that something for that gratis. 21:23 < ybit> so what are you actually wanting to talk about, what are your concerns/questions of manufacturing everything in one place? 21:23 < kanzure> thanks ybit 21:23 < ncravens_> what tools do I need to do this in one place? 21:23 < genehacker> I want that too 21:24 < genehacker> basically you need a whole bunch of flexible manufacturing cells 21:24 < genehacker> some of which do not currently exist 21:24 < kanzure> nah 21:24 < kanzure> everything already exists for this 21:24 < kanzure> skdb is just aggregating it together 21:24 < genehacker> not in flexible manufacturing cell form 21:24 < kanzure> sorry i'm so slow 21:24 < kanzure> go away 21:25 < genehacker> anyway you'd probably need an automatic milling machine for starters 21:25 < ncravens_> and . does that exist today. can we put all the tools to make essential needs products in one place? preferably a room as it can be ... near. so a bot can easily do it or a bot can easily show you around the place so you can do it 21:25 < kanzure> the room will not explode if you have lots of tools in it, if that's what you're asking 21:25 < ncravens_> ;p 21:25 < ybit> ncravens_: check out the om thread for the listing of tools: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/c53600ca2eb54cb/d2ea3ed57b903479 21:25 < genehacker> also don't expect it to be fast either 21:25 < ncravens_> who are you ybit? 21:25 < ybit> and there were others comparing techshop, fablab, and something else 21:26 < ybit> heath matlock 21:26 < genehacker> heat treatment always takes time and it's sometimes necessary 21:26 < ncravens_> hi heath! omg ;p 21:26 < genehacker> you'd also need a maskless lithography setup 21:26 < ncravens_> thanks for the link 21:26 < ybit> oi nathan, np 21:26 < genehacker> fortunately darpa funds a bunch of that 21:26 < ncravens_> meaning open source? 21:26 < genehacker> no 21:27 < ncravens_> ;p 21:27 < genehacker> meaning it's funded by the military 21:27 < kanzure> nathan i get the feeling that you didn't actually read ybit's link 21:27 < genehacker> ybit did you consider rockoons or lorentz propulsion? 21:28 < genehacker> though for lorentz propulsion, you need what your launching to be moving fast 21:28 < genehacker> or not 21:29 < ncravens_> this will do it? http://www.saulgriffith.com/Make/Make03.pdf hook folks up with the ability to make anything for life needs in urban areas even? 21:29 < kanzure> why not read the skdb yaml file of that? 21:29 < kanzure> sigh 21:30 < kanzure> all of that data has been processed already.. don't reinvent the wheel. 21:30 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/doc/BOMs/ultimate-tool-buying-guide.yaml 21:30 < ybit> rockoons is neat genehacker, it's similar to what i was going for 21:30 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockoon 21:30 < genehacker> sugar rockets to space! 21:31 < genehacker> that will help you 21:31 < ncravens_> its times like these netbooks are a hendernce 21:31 < kanzure> http://sugarshot.org/ 21:31 * kanzure compiles cal3d 21:31 < genehacker> ah yes thanks kanzure 21:31 < genehacker> I LAUGH AT YOUR PUNY NETBOOK 21:31 < ncravens_> heheh ;p he doesn't like that! don't make it angry!!! 21:31 < ncravens_> IT PWNS!!!!!!!!! 21:32 < ncravens_> it will try to download me if it gets angry. ; 21:32 < ncravens_> I don't know what that means! 21:33 < jonathan__> so yahoo finance had a "serious" article about the future of employment, when robots rule the world and can manufacture everything, whereby we all lose all jobs 21:33 < ybit> thanks for the link kanzure, and thanks for holding it off yesterday, jackass ;) 21:33 < genehacker> what do you mean jonathan? people still have to design things 21:34 < kanzure> genehacker: not true 21:34 < genehacker> too bad semiconductor design automation sucks and will NEVER get better in the future 21:34 < kanzure> jonathan__: do you read open manufacturing ever? 21:34 * ybit is off to practice welding for a few mins 21:34 < jonathan__> i have robots read that list for me 21:34 < ncravens_> why are water jet cutters so damn expensive? 21:35 < kanzure> jonathan__: they like to talk about ways that it's not the end of the world if the concept of employment and/or money vanishes 21:35 < genehacker> welding aka all of metallurgy in less than a cm 21:35 < ncravens_> yahoo wrote an article on everyone pwnd by robots? what's the link? 21:35 < jonathan__> money already vanished about 40-70% from a lot of baby boomer financial accounts this year 21:35 < genehacker> ncraven: 1.because the people who buy them are willing to pay that much 21:35 < genehacker> 2. because the market isn't that big 21:36 < ncravens_> its cuz they retarrd and was bein replaced. ;p 21:36 < kanzure> jonathan__: yeah but they still believe in it or something 21:36 < genehacker> 3. they run at high pressures 21:36 < kanzure> anyway, back to work 21:36 < jonathan__> "The Real Problem with the Economy Is That It Doesn't Need You Anymore" http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/337340/The-Real-Problem-with-the-Economy-Is-That-It-Doesn%27t-Need-You-Anymore?tickers=dia,spy,xlf 21:36 < ncravens_> they need some damn competition. Bryan you buildin one of these things for $5 so you can gets that cash to make general purpose robots and such?! 21:36 < jonathan__> my apple stock is up 106% so yeah, I believe in it 21:36 < genehacker> $5 are you crazy man? 21:37 < ncravens_> rofl ;p no! 21:37 < genehacker> that would be impossible 21:37 < genehacker> unless it replicated itself 21:37 < kanzure> you people suck 21:37 < genehacker> in which case it'd have to be free 21:37 < genehacker> how so? 21:37 < kanzure> why are we talking about money 21:37 < kanzure> go away 21:37 < ncravens_> yeah. bryan. you said it 21:37 < ncravens_> ;p 21:38 < jonathan__> if we didnt have money you would be bartering with livestock and broom handles 21:38 < kanzure> jonathan__: bullshit 21:38 < kanzure> my computer works whether or not i wave a green bill in front of it 21:38 < jonathan__> what do you have of value? 21:38 < genehacker> thank you for providing feedback, future actions will be changed 21:38 < ncravens_> my momma still talks to me even if she don't like me 21:38 < ncravens_> without being paid fer it 21:38 < jonathan__> someone has to 21:38 < jonathan__> cuz we wont 21:38 < kanzure> jonathan__: then go away and be happy 21:39 < kanzure> meanwhile i'll still be doing this 21:39 < genehacker> inb4 how do you obtain rare mineral xxxxx 21:39 < ncravens_> you are using the term of payment rather flexibly I think . . . 21:39 < ncravens_> you make mineral xxxxx 21:39 < ncravens_> see: handwaved away! 21:39 < genehacker> how do yo make yttrium? 21:39 < ncravens_> you find tf out, dawg. 21:40 < genehacker> we don't have the technology to make even grams of yttrium 21:40 < ncravens_> or you find something that can find out for you 21:40 < jonathan__> I dont believe yahoo's article, of course 21:40 < genehacker> strong nuclear force is strong 21:40 < ncravens_> how did you end up here jonny if you believe in market determinism?. 21:40 < genehacker> one cannot make yttrium 21:41 < jonathan__> i believe in evolution 21:41 < ncravens_> why do we want yttrium? 21:41 < kanzure> jonathan__ is here because he hacks around with us on diybio projects 21:41 < kanzure> and he likes to think he knows what skdb is about 21:41 < kanzure> also he gets shit done :) 21:41 < ncravens_> and he wants to own all the rights so he can have robots into tyrra foam and say, bwahahhaa, you didn't earn it?! 21:41 < kanzure> um 21:41 < jonathan__> i dont know what it's about, I'm still waiting for the pitch, lol 21:41 < kanzure> really? 21:42 < ncravens_> that good. 21:42 < genehacker> yttrium is an essential element for things like TV phosphors and superconductors 21:42 < genehacker> I should probably leave, I think I have little value here 21:42 < jonathan__> really 21:43 < fenn> what am i supposed to be whining about? 21:43 < jonathan__> you have value if we grind you up, add salt, and make hamburgers 21:43 < ncravens_> do nano assemblers to do stuff they weren't originally programmed for -- in practice ? -- ones other than already existing pre-programmed via trial and error (perhaps?) biologies. 21:44 < fenn> hmm maybe i should stick with the TV 21:44 < genehacker> nanoassemblers do not exist or aren't practical for mass assembly currently 21:45 < genehacker> please work out the atomic manipulation part to continue 21:45 < jonathan__> the interesting thing, is that a lot of los angeles runs on "not money" 21:45 < ncravens_> I ask, because another clever hand wave or straw man would be to say we will (very very soon now) have nanogadgets that take molecule a and molecule b and after a series of futile tasks, taadaah, yttrium! 21:45 < kanzure> yttrium is an element 21:45 < jonathan__> all those actors, celebrities, rock stars... all dirt broke, "no money" 21:45 < jonathan__> they have the best "manufacturing" around 21:46 < ncravens_> so you need a gadget that assembles elements. 21:46 < genehacker> that would be femtotech 21:46 < genehacker> we're quite far from that 21:46 < kanzure> ncravens_: you mean particle accelerators and nuclear reactors? 21:46 < fenn> woo batman 21:46 < ncravens_> ;p 21:46 < genehacker> as I said not even grams 21:46 < ncravens_> you'll have that ready by morning, right fenn?! 21:47 < genehacker> I think you seriously overestimate our current capabilities 21:47 < ncravens_> ;p 21:47 < kanzure> genehacker: nathan doesn't know what an element is. or at least, last year this time he didn't 21:48 < jonathan__> Intel announced today that they have a roadmap to 22 nm silicon 21:48 < kanzure> okay 21:48 < jonathan__> that is freakin small 21:48 < ncravens_> there's stuff we both don't know right now ;p 21:48 < kanzure> they're doing around 45 nm right now 21:49 < jonathan__> that kind of consistency across whatever size wafers they are using now, is amazing 21:49 < ncravens_> so you gonna kanzure for that information?! 21:49 < genehacker> 35nm kanzure 21:49 < ncravens_> you gonna pay kanzure rather! 21:49 < ncravens_> pay up ;p 21:50 < ncravens_> cash money! 21:50 < kanzure> what are you talking about? 21:50 < ncravens_> jonathan was amazed and he believes stuff costs money, so I'm just attempting to make a point. 21:51 < genehacker> stuff does 21:51 < ncravens_> that's only because we are unable to DIY it. 21:51 < kanzure> no 21:51 < jonathan__> stuff costs money, but not for reasons you're talking about 21:51 < ncravens_> well that's a vital part? 21:52 < kanzure> not really 21:52 < genehacker> I can't make a fossil of a trilobite 21:52 < genehacker> neither can I make THE mona lisa 21:52 < ncravens_> lack of information sharing, boundary or land/material rights . . . 21:52 < genehacker> can you make THE mona lisa ncravens_? 21:53 < ncravens_> who has the right then to OWN IT?! 21:53 < kanzure> you should stop talking 21:53 < kanzure> gah 21:54 < kanzure> jonathan__: hey if you install skdb sometime i'd like to give you a tour through the python interpreter 21:54 < jonathan__> new release was posted http://search.cpan.org/~jcline/Robotics/ 21:54 < kanzure> what's new? 21:54 < ncravens_> so in terms of scarcity. information needs to be shared and boundaries given permission for needs and reasonable wants. anything else missing from what's needed for post-scarcity other than the things left unsaid? 21:55 < kanzure> jonathan__: is that different from the svn repo? 21:55 < jonathan__> it's the release code 21:55 < kanzure> nothing not in svn 21:55 < jonathan__> right of course 21:56 < genehacker> why not share information about everyone else then? 21:56 < ybit> fenn, kanzure: do you have a collection of notes on pythonocc install? where are the cflags specified. /me sees no makefile, maybe it's in environment.py or specified in setup.py 21:56 < kanzure> ybit: you mean http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/pythonocc ? 21:56 < jonathan__> I can stop by your lab tomorrow and give me a short code walkthru or etc 21:57 < kanzure> jonathan__: what time will you be around for that? 21:57 < kanzure> i need to leave at 4 pm and have class from 1 to 2. 21:57 < ybit> kanzure: that covers all the problems you guys ran into? 21:57 < kanzure> ybit: yes 21:57 * ybit is envious 21:57 < kanzure> ybit: i'm having trouble figuring out what problems you're encountering 21:58 < ncravens_> kanzure: did you find a nice patch of green? Still want me to drop in for a visit? 21:58 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/f6aeda4f8 21:58 < kanzure> ncravens_: i have three weeks of free rent at the new apartment in october, but i don't know if fenn is going to be around or not 21:58 < ybit> the preprocessor can't find the header file config.h 21:59 < kanzure> ybit: oh that's easy actually 21:59 < kanzure> that's actually the config.h file from opencascade 21:59 < jonathan__> i'll figure to head in early, not sure what time yet 21:59 < ybit> right 21:59 < kanzure> so if you have OpenCASCADE/6.3.0/ros/inc/config.h or something, grab that 21:59 < ncravens_> when do you want me to pwn Austin? 21:59 < ybit> and specify it in the Makefile typically, but i don't see a makefile 21:59 < kanzure> ybit: what? 22:00 < kanzure> ncravens_: to be honest i have no clue 22:00 < kanzure> if you really want to come i'm going to have to get you to learn python first or something 22:00 < kanzure> or else i'm going to go out of my mind 22:00 < ncravens_> haha! ;p 22:00 < ybit> specify it = adding the include path 22:01 < kanzure> no not adding the include path 22:01 < kanzure> i mean quite literally copying the file 22:01 < ybit> oh, i just did ln -s 22:01 < ncravens_> I will need to write a program to translate my natural language into that gibberish! that should take a few 24 hours nights , right? 22:01 < kanzure> i remember ssh'ing into leibniz once to grab the opencascade config.h file 22:01 < kanzure> ybit: ok or that 22:01 < ybit> but it's not working, so i'll try copying it 22:01 < ybit> which i think i did already 22:02 < kanzure> ybit: you should also search environment.py for "Ubuntu" 22:03 < fenn> libstdc++2.10-dev: /usr/include/g++-3/strstream.h 22:03 < genehacker> ncravens_ I suggest you read a few stories about monkey's paws and genies to understand the danger of doing such a thing 22:03 < fenn> ybit did you get build-essential? 22:04 < ncravens_> ;p 22:04 < ncravens_> in a culture of sharing, good stuff can only happen -- pwnd. 22:05 < genehacker> O'RLY? 22:05 < ybit> fenn: yeah, one of the first things i grabbed, learned this early on in ubuntu 22:06 < jonathan__> I assume you've read Lord of the Flies 22:06 < genehacker> so if you say you want a tank, what will it give you? 22:07 < genehacker> afterall the word tank refers to several different things in the english language 22:07 < ybit> oh, that was the wrong paste. guess i need to keep a record of progress through something like notes_on_install.txt 22:07 < kanzure> ybit: fenn introduced me to his system once 22:07 < kanzure> he keeps a bunch of installation notes in ~/remember/ 22:07 < ncravens_> Lord of the Flies is a tale of the scarcity mentality pwns. but its not a happy tale, nor a prefered one. even if it is a 'reality' . that is but one aspect of "human nature." 22:07 < kanzure> well, scripts actually 22:08 < kanzure> since you just copy your shell session into a script 22:08 < ybit> heath@togetic:~/builds/pythonOCC/src$ pastebinit ohshit.txt 22:08 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/f49e1aa91 22:08 < kanzure> and that should be what you have to do to install it (maybe) 22:08 < genehacker> ncravens_ getting rid of scarcity doesn't moot politics 22:08 < fenn> i don't copy my shell session since usually it takes multiple tries to get it right 22:08 < ncravens_> true 22:09 < genehacker> this means that sharing doesn't always make things better 22:09 < ncravens_> genehacker: but post-scarcity will only amplify politics or at least grant more diversified boundary negotiations. 22:09 < kanzure> ybit: that feels like you've got your include paths all whacky 22:09 < ncravens_> potentially 22:09 < kanzure> ybit: was that scons or setup.py? 22:09 < ybit> kanzure: which is what i'm trying to edit 22:09 < ybit> setup.py 22:09 < ncravens_> the politics ahead in a post-scarcity world will depend on the folks living in it 22:09 < genehacker> frankly I'm quite scared of what could happen if gene synthesizers get cheap and biological information is shared readily 22:09 < kanzure> can you pastebinit your environment.py file? 22:10 < kanzure> technically our environment.py files should be the same since we're all running the same system 22:10 < ybit> heath@togetic:~/builds/pythonOCC/src/wrapper$ pastebinit environment.py 22:10 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/f33cabe90 22:10 * kanzure checksx 22:10 < kanzure> oh shit 22:10 < kanzure> what's with this /opt/ bullshit? 22:10 < kanzure> see line 145 and 146 22:11 < ncravens_> cuz you may think people are born as SINNERS or bad folk if it were not for laws to restrict and such, but such things are only in place to keep you in line cuz things do not work as well as they ought. Bryan, Fenn, and you are pwning away at that sort of business. 22:11 < kanzure> line 180 and 181 too look funny 22:12 < kanzure> why does he use all of these absolute paths 22:12 < kanzure> sigh 22:12 < genehacker> no I don't think that 22:12 < kanzure> (i'm talking about thomas paviot) 22:12 < kanzure> ybit: do you have CASROOT defined in your environmental vars? 22:12 < kanzure> in the shell i mean 22:12 < genehacker> there is always a normal distribution that is all 22:12 -!- genehacker is now known as genehacker-afk 22:13 < ybit> nope, probably a good idea though, whoops 22:13 < jonathan__> lol.... we have nearly free manufacturing, it's called Walmart. look what kind of people frequent that place. 22:13 < kanzure> free libre or free beer? 22:14 < genehacker-afk> is it nearly free for people in africa? 22:14 < genehacker-afk> (who don't make much money) 22:15 < ncravens_> there are some pre-scarcity nomadic folk remaining there right? if silly governments haven't pwnd them all . :( 22:15 < jonathan__> scarcity? 22:16 < ncravens_> the need for exchange trade of any kind 22:17 < kanzure> ybit: you alive? 22:17 < genehacker-afk> randInt(1,3) 22:18 < ybit> kanzure: yeah 22:18 < fenn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixaZi8y1Lfc 22:18 < ybit> that didn't work 22:18 < ybit> that being export CASROOT=/home/heath/builds/opencascade/ros 22:19 < kanzure> it might need an extra slash at the end 22:19 < fenn> so i'm wondering why physics always means they flop around like they're dead 22:19 < fenn> did yo build your own opencascade? 22:19 -!- genehacker-afk is now known as genehacker 22:20 < genehacker> because it's hard to make walking virtual humans 22:20 < genehacker> though I've seen progams that do it 22:20 < kanzure> the animation cycle only has to get it right once 22:20 * kanzure used to be into 3d animation until he realized he was bored 22:20 < fenn> but every other animation using cal3d shows them walking around and it's not just an animation cycle 22:20 < genehacker> I think this uses opendynamics engine if I'm correct http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3M8QsXlwbk 22:25 < fenn> if you look at this you'll see it's not just a looped animation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLzU23xJrhg 22:26 < genehacker> so are you thinking of using that as a dynamics engine? 22:26 < fenn> that = what? 22:26 < genehacker> the dynamics engine they used? 22:26 < fenn> i was just looking for realistic human kinematics 22:27 < fenn> i dont even know what physics engine that was 22:27 < fenn> there's another video with the skeleton running around in bullet physics 22:27 < fenn> it doesn't interact with anything though 22:27 < fenn> what's the point of that? 22:28 < kanzure> time scons mode=build OCC_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/include OCC_CONFIG_H_PATH=/usr/include/opencascade OCC_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib 22:28 < kanzure> ImportError: No module named Modules: 22:28 < fenn> its in wrapper/ 22:29 < kanzure> this is stupid 22:29 < kanzure> do i move it out of wrapper/ ? 22:30 < fenn> no 22:30 < kanzure> then why did it not find it? 22:30 < kanzure> what? 22:30 < fenn> i think scons comes broken and you have to fix it 22:30 < fenn> why are you using scons? 22:30 < kanzure> because ybit's setup.py is broken too 22:30 < ncravens_> hmmm... to end scarcity ... use the right side of your brain... this gal is pretty good at using both . . . amazing . . . http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html 22:30 < fenn> ncravens_: sorry dude, right brain sucks 22:31 < kanzure> error: could not delete 'build/lib.linux-i686-2.5/OCC/Standard.py': Permission denied 22:31 < kanzure> oops sorry 22:31 < ncravens_> fenn: but it prevents folk from reducio ad ablivionia! but yes. it can get it the way and make a mess of things. 22:31 < jonathan__> walmart already ends scaricity. go on welfare, get food stamps. then you are there. 22:32 < ncravens_> that model cannot hold up environmentally. . . ;p 22:33 < fenn> it's not sustainable :) 22:33 < ncravens_> yeah. that business. 22:33 < genehacker> ncravens_ why all this talk about ending scarcity when you could be working to end it? 22:33 < genehacker> nanoassemblers don't exist yet 22:33 < fenn> srsly 22:33 < ncravens_> talking is a part of working. 22:33 < genehacker> you appear to have an internet connection get working 22:33 < ncravens_> to know what better to work 22:33 < jonathan__> i wouldnt mind setting up a bunch of hydroponics for food at my place here 22:33 < ncravens_> how bout a Walmart? 22:33 < genehacker> have you considered spirulina 22:34 < jonathan__> yeah, spirulina is on the list 22:34 < kanzure> jonathan__: utex.org has a list of the algae you can swing by and pick up at ut 22:34 < genehacker> though spirulina might give you gout if you eat it all the time 22:35 < fenn> hmm ok maybe cal3d is just looped animations.. wah 22:35 < ncravens_> genehacker: how do you define work and why must I adhere to it? 22:35 < jonathan__> i'll check out utex.org for sure 22:35 < jonathan__> once I have tubes built up 22:36 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@pool-71-174-184-88.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:36 < ncravens_> kanzure: jus let me know when you want me to drop in and make a mess of things. 22:36 < kanzure> you mean tubs? 22:36 < jonathan__> no, acrylic cylinders or something 22:36 < jonathan__> bioreactor 22:37 < fenn> silliness 22:37 < genehacker> those go bad in the sun 22:37 < jonathan__> it would be for indoors 22:37 < ncravens_> sassiness 22:37 < genehacker> you're exposing em to UV are you not? 22:37 < genehacker> oh wait 22:37 < fenn> just don't say you're doing it to grow fuel 22:37 < jonathan__> no fuel 22:37 < ncravens_> fishies. 22:37 < genehacker> use clear tubing instead 22:37 < jonathan__> yes or clear tubes 22:38 < genehacker> it's cheaper 22:38 < genehacker> suggest using red LEDs 22:38 < jonathan__> fluorescent lights 22:38 < genehacker> that's what algae works at 22:39 < genehacker> is this a permanent food supply 22:39 < ncravens_> I'm at ihop around a bunch of marketing and business college student... heheheh e;p *snort* 22:39 < genehacker> as in, in case of zombie attack? 22:40 < genehacker> because I have some data that might be useful for you for that 22:40 < ncravens_> these folk grow zombies, not sure if they know how to pwn them, don't think so . 22:40 < jonathan__> permanent? dunno what you mean... i'd prefer if it was self-renewing though 22:40 < jonathan__> I figure it would be a mess to have to drain it and clean it and re-seed it continually 22:41 < jonathan__> I dont like aquariums for that reason 22:41 < jonathan__> too much work, I'm lazy 22:41 < genehacker> when you grow stuff, sometimes it gets sick 22:41 < genehacker> that's one of the rules of growing stuff 22:42 < jonathan__> spirulina grows in high salt 22:42 < genehacker> oh dear 22:43 < genehacker> that means your pump will have to be salt proof 22:44 < genehacker> http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3g.html 22:44 < jonathan__> does peristaltic work? 22:44 < genehacker> it might 22:44 < jonathan__> or is that flow rate too slow 22:44 < genehacker> though a boat bilge pump might do the trick 22:44 < fenn> i think it has to be peristaltic or it will rip up the cells 22:46 < genehacker> oh I know 22:47 < genehacker> you could use a LAZ0R PUMP!!!! 22:47 < jonathan__> letz use LAzERZ!@1! 22:48 < jonathan__> i think what's more important is the O2 / CO2 ratio 22:48 < genehacker> P3t4w477 LAzerZ!!! 22:48 -!- ncravens [n=chatzill@s66-76-64-254.nacdcmta01.ncgdtx.tl.sta.suddenlink.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:49 < kanzure> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lTKDCAF 22:49 < kanzure> where was this from anyway? 22:49 < kanzure> opencascade-draw ? 22:49 < fenn> something like that 22:50 < jonathan__> uhhh that TED talk is whack 22:50 < jonathan__> "Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight" uhhhh 22:51 < kanzure> ldd is claiming that it doesn't exist (it does). maybe /usr/lib/opencas/libTKDCAF.so is not being looked at 22:52 < jonathan__> the kids of the 60's already tried that "stroke of insight" and look how they made a big mess of things... 22:53 < genehacker> talk summary: 22:54 < jonathan__> drop acid, it's a shorter ride and less than $10 22:54 < ncravens> Taylor's story offers some interesting insight into describing cognition for artificial recognition. 22:54 < jonathan__> artifical recognition? 22:54 < ncravens> ai if you like 22:54 < genehacker> by entertainment price per hour the internet is cheaper 22:55 < genehacker> by many magnitudes 22:55 < genehacker> I did the calculations 22:55 < ncravens> you calculated quality? 22:56 < genehacker> yes the cost of various entertainment per dollar 22:56 < genehacker> per hour entertained 22:56 < jonathan__> it's funny how those kinds of talks like hers, always condemn the left brain and glorify the right brain. what's up with that? 22:57 < jonathan__> society in general, glorifies right brain activity and deplores left brain 22:57 < genehacker> I for one don't think it matters 22:57 < kanzure> both of my brains are equally insert adjective 22:57 < genehacker> I don't think we know shit about the brain 22:57 < ncravens> prolly cuz market rationality exercises the calculating brain more. . . and that can reduce things into oblivion when left unchecked. 22:58 < genehacker> hurr 22:58 < ncravens> we know enough about the brain to make a reasonable mess of things. . . 22:58 < ncravens> I'm not that we, of course. ;p 22:58 < genehacker> how are you sure? 22:58 < ncravens> via reduction dawgh. 22:59 < jonathan__> "by entertainment price per hour the internet is cheaper" that's kind of a ridiculous statement i'd say 23:00 < genehacker> look at it 23:00 < jonathan__> it ignores the quality of the entertainment 23:00 < ncravens> well, at least that statement has entertainment value, damn. 23:00 < genehacker> it's true 23:00 < genehacker> look at it 23:00 < jonathan__> a movie for example is good.. riding a rollercoaster is way better 23:00 < ncravens> its damn entertaining indeed. but I suspect rates of amusement will vary! 23:00 < genehacker> internet cost per month ~month is proportional to $30 23:01 < genehacker> a month contains a lot of hours 23:01 < jonathan__> it's also 2D 23:02 < genehacker> besides you can download a rollercoaster experience off of one of the experience sites I won't name 23:02 < jonathan__> multiplayer doom gets my vote for entertainment -per- dolla 23:02 < genehacker> oh? 23:02 < jonathan__> video game ~ $30. multiplayer experience.. very high 23:02 < ncravens> that's just a measurement to keep things in 'order', but it does not have to exist if there were a more useful alternative. some like death, others, rollercoasters. call 'it' as you might. smb is my ideal form of high dollar play. 23:04 < genehacker> I for one like snowcrash 23:04 < genehacker> it's the best out there 23:04 -!- ncravens_ [n=chatzill@s66-76-64-254.nacdcmta01.ncgdtx.tl.sta.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05 < genehacker> kanzure do you have any molecular biology books on the server, if yes please send me a link 23:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/ 23:06 < genehacker> thank you 23:07 < genehacker> would downloading from your server be a direct download? 23:07 < kanzure> what? 23:07 < genehacker> downloading something from your server? 23:07 < genehacker> would it be a direct download? 23:08 < ncravens> I just noticed that ultimate tools article was written by Saul Griffith.. well damn! 23:08 < kanzure> ncravens: did you see the writeup of it in skdb? 23:09 < kanzure> genehacker: um, i don't know how to answer you 23:09 < genehacker> I don't think it is a direct download then 23:09 < kanzure> what does "direct" mean 23:09 < genehacker> I'm wondering if downloading from your server would be secure 23:09 < kanzure> i wouldn't worry about that 23:10 < ncravens> kanzure: not sure how to answer you, I've only looked at a wiki on skdb , you mean the write up in skdb the app? ;) 23:10 < kanzure> ncravens: i mean the link i gave you for the ultimate-tool-buying-guide 23:10 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/doc/BOMs/ultimate-tool-buying-guide.yaml 23:10 < ncravens> kanzure: I gave it a gander. and giving it still. 23:10 < fenn> it doesn't do anything. wah! 23:10 < kanzure> you have to load it into python fenn 23:10 < kanzure> you should know this 23:10 < kanzure> or some other language of course 23:11 < fenn> it still doesnt do anything 23:11 < ncravens> how much does all this stuff weigh? 23:11 < kanzure> that's true but it wouldn't be hard to write something that sorted by price or something 23:11 < kanzure> ncravens: i don't think mass is given in mcmaster carr 23:11 < kanzure> but we could probably guestimate 23:11 < ncravens> kanzure: well that needs a fixn 23:12 < genehacker> why don't you buy the tools and weigh them for us? 23:12 < ncravens> kanzure: and size? 23:12 < genehacker> that would help a lot 23:12 < ncravens> kanzure: and combined size -- to see how big our 'basement' must be. 23:13 < genehacker> the unfortunate thing is that not many companies provide THE ENGINEER'S UNIVERSAL GUIDE TO ALL THE PARTS WE SELL 23:13 < ncravens> that's a problem. ;p 23:13 < jonathan__> companies make more $$ by hiding that. then resell the same thing multiple ways. 23:13 < genehacker> AN ENGINEER'S UNIVERSAL TABLE FOR ____ usually refers to a magical table capable of providing all possible properties of ____ 23:14 < ncravens> mr engineer company needs to fess up and say, here's how you do it yourself for none of that money stuff, so just make sure we get fed and have lovers and we'll be just fine. 23:14 < genehacker> unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that 23:14 < ncravens> and mr. academic and mr state need to fess up too. Smari is on mr state from what he tells me. 23:15 < jonathan__> technology moves, so the parts 10 years ago are not useful today. I got a whole drawer of worthless IC's now 23:15 < genehacker> well fessing up is not only profitable but costly as it involves work 23:15 < genehacker> it's also the lazier thing to do 23:15 < ncravens> just show us what ya done. you got databases wits that. just 'share the wealth' 23:16 < ncravens> sure dat profit margin goes down, but if everyone else does it, value goes up! 23:16 < jonathan__> it is getting much much better these days. used to be that you had to call texas instruments and send them $50 for a databook. now all the pdf's are free. 23:16 < ncravens> and it cannot be forced. I got to add that as not to be labeled a Boshivec or something 23:16 < genehacker> problem is 23:16 < jonathan__> some companies didnt even send databooks at all, unless you could prove you were a huge company 23:17 < genehacker> there's no fixed standard for databooks 23:17 < ncravens> you need a reader to compile dat information into a standardized databook 23:17 < jonathan__> there's a standard.. "conventions".. maybe you want digital is all 23:17 < jonathan__> databooks are unique to the parts, so it will be unique 23:18 < ncravens> yeah. digital means potent for innovate. 23:18 < jonathan__> national semi has a lot more design info docs in each datasheet, whereas asia companies only give a table of specs 23:18 < jonathan__> the most valuable datasheets are the new ones, so if it was all digital, the symbols might not yet exist in the standard format, so then it breaks 23:19 < jonathan__> same as HTML specs, the new browsers are always breaking spec because they want "newer" features than the "agreed upon last year" spec 23:20 < kanzure> /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/MoniTool_wrap.cpp: In function 'PyObject* _wrap_MoniTool_DataMapNodeOfDataMapOfTimer_Key(PyObject*, PyObject*)': 23:20 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure this means that python-dev isn't installed 23:20 < kanzure> but that doesn't seem to solve the problem 23:20 < jonathan__> many people believe adobe is evil for not opening pdf, but they did force everyone to adopt it, which unified to a digital format at least 23:21 < genehacker> hmmm... 23:21 < ncravens> hmm so now to representing how to make the stuff that makes basic needs stuff, assuming we've properly defined what 'basic needs' means. Does that exist as a lovly document like the Makerzine doc? 23:21 < kanzure> fenn: TKDCAF, TKIDLFront, TKTCPPExt 23:21 < kanzure> ncravens: no that's what skdb is doing 23:21 < genehacker> I really need the datasheets for 2 liter coke bottles 23:21 < ncravens> kanzure: right :) 23:21 < kanzure> ncravens: i think you should study the skdb data files 23:21 < kanzure> and stop assuming we're morons 23:21 < genehacker> I've heard it's possible to obtain them 23:21 < jonathan__> coke bottles? talk to the bottle co. oem's 23:22 < ncravens> kanzure: wuts the link? 23:22 < kanzure> ncravens: http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb 23:22 < kanzure> ncravens: http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/ 23:22 < genehacker> I need the threading 23:23 < genehacker> also please study the difference between elements and molecules 23:23 < genehacker> wikipedia.org 23:24 < ncravens> okay. so skdb is the source for this 'how to' manufacturing that 'whatever' . . . and smari's tangible bit is to find where dohs materials is? 23:24 < kanzure> no, smari is just repeating what we're doing 23:24 < ncravens> isn't that silly talk? 23:24 < kanzure> yeah i don't know why he's not in here any more 23:24 < ncravens> why not COMBINE FORCES? 23:24 < kanzure> he claims that he hates us or something :p 23:24 < fenn> i don't know what smari is doing, but there appear to be 'where to get stuff' data 23:25 < kanzure> ncravens: we already merged our repositories 23:25 < kanzure> his code appears in skdb in http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/inventory/ i think 23:25 < kanzure> and in http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/clients/ 23:25 < ncravens> you guys are sassy as fuck, but what Smari jus gots to understand is he can't out-sass, that's not important. 23:25 < kanzure> we're not sassy, just pissy 23:25 < ncravens> WELL DAMN! 23:25 < ncravens> isn't that worst? 23:26 < genehacker> this thread of discussion isn't fruitful 23:26 < ncravens> haha! 23:26 < fenn> i'm sick of people talking at me 23:26 < fenn> just shut up and email me the data already 23:27 < ncravens> what data you needs? 23:27 < fenn> well formatted data 23:27 < ncravens> well formatted data of all the manufacturing process knowledge in the known? 23:27 < fenn> yep 23:28 < ncravens> you could have just said that, fenn. One second . .. . ;p 23:28 < ncravens> its in the mail . . . 23:28 < ybit> 23:27 < ncravens> well formatted data of all the manufacturing process knowledge in the known? 23:29 * ybit has already scanned mprg 23:29 < ybit> rtfm dammit ;) 23:29 < kanzure> .. 23:29 < fenn> here's a good example of how to go about making well formatted data http://www.anthus.com/Recipes/CompCook.html 23:29 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@pool-71-174-184-88.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:30 < jonathan__> anything newer than 1985? 23:30 < ncravens> why not jus create a program that formats it to a prefered spec. just says: hellow web, I'm gonna find yah, cuz I know what manufacturing data is, and bewm, here you go fab geeks, now try to find dat materials business to do it. 23:30 < fenn> linkump please? 23:30 < fenn> because computers are not hyperactive ten year olds 23:30 < genehacker> because we don't know how 23:31 < kanzure> no because we don't have the data 23:31 < jonathan__> the data is not marked with metadata so it's impossible 23:31 < kanzure> oh please 23:31 < ncravens> so berners lee has a point, just share that stuff, dat data. 23:32 < ncravens> DeepQA inkles that we can find it and compile it into an elegant format. 23:32 < jonathan__> can't even name digitized PDF's from the web... solve that first eh 23:32 < fenn> it's not impossible it's just unreasonable to scrape together tiny crumbs when i know there's a whole loaf out there somewhere 23:33 < ncravens> have you called manufacturing departments in universities and businesses to find out where the heck dat loaf is? 23:33 < ncravens> using that old skool Skype voice thingy? 23:33 < fenn> they are almost as clueless as you 23:34 < ncravens> phds in manufacturing departments don't gots a clue? 23:34 < jonathan__> universities have no motivation to keep data preserved. it dies when people graduate. corporations spend a lot of effort to preserve the IP however 23:34 < genehacker> yes kanzure has 23:34 < ybit> where is wx.aui 23:34 < kanzure> ybit: wxpython 23:34 < fenn> that sounds familiar 23:34 < ncravens> manufacturing departments need to use the internet ;p 23:35 < fenn> was that a wx version problem or something? 23:35 < genehacker> they do 23:35 < ybit> wxPython 23:35 < ncravens> isn't that what fab labs are supposed to do? what have they done in this regard. this is where having Smari here would be of help 23:35 < kanzure> didn't i just say that 23:35 < ybit> ya 23:36 < ncravens> it blows my mind. so I had to repeat it. 23:36 < kanzure> ncravens: no i'm not talking to you 23:36 < kanzure> i'm trying to ignore you 23:36 < ncravens> haha! 23:36 < kanzure> ncravens: how about you just read the channel logs for a while? 23:36 < kanzure> you have a few years to play catch up with 23:36 < ncravens> yes 23:37 < fenn> fab labs are an academic thing, sorta 23:37 < fenn> in fact i dont think anyone really knows what's going on 23:37 < fenn> wrt fab labs 23:37 < ybit> hm, already grabbed python-wxtools python-wxgtk2.6 23:37 < kanzure> neil is probably winging it 23:37 < ybit> maybe i should try 2.8 for the heck of it 23:37 < kanzure> yeah iirc 2.8 is required 23:37 < ncravens> neil could use a vacation 23:38 < kanzure> he's a professor, half his year is a vacation 23:38 < ncravens> so why is he so uptight and such.. he writes like a clear minded god. 23:38 < ncravens> with the help of editing done by his students and collegues of course ;p 23:38 < ybit> File "/home/heath/builds/pythonOCC/src/samples/Tools/InteractiveViewer/InteractiveViewer.py", line 54, in 23:39 < ybit> import wx.aui 23:39 < ybit> ImportError: No module named aui 23:39 < kanzure> ybit: yeah i know 23:39 < kanzure> even with wx 2.8? 23:39 < ybit> yep 23:39 < kanzure> did you solve the PyObject errors? 23:39 < ybit> those were? 23:39 < kanzure> /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/MoniTool_wrap.cpp: In function 'PyObject* _wrap_MoniTool_DataMapNodeOfDataMapOfTimer_Key(PyObject*, PyObject*)': 23:39 < ncravens> have you asked Niel where this loaf is or if he's thought of such things.. . surely? 23:39 < kanzure> ncravens: neil won't talk with us 23:40 < ncravens> kanzure: why not? 23:40 < kanzure> he's a professor and ignores our emails 23:40 < fenn> why don't you ask him 23:40 < ncravens> he's ignored mine too ;p 23:40 < kanzure> he has a reason to ignore you 23:40 < ncravens> and what reason is that? ;p 23:40 < kanzure> don't make me say it 23:41 < ncravens> because I am this 'waste of time' business? 23:41 < ncravens> well that wouldn't be so if he told where that loaf is and how to get it 23:42 < fenn> what makes you think neil knows where some free database is that may or may not exist? 23:42 < fenn> i know the data is out there, certainly.. but can i use it? probably not 23:42 < ncravens> because surely he must have wondered such things enough to know of something similar. 23:43 < genehacker> kanzure, is there a skdb assembly format that does the function of solidworks assembly files? 23:43 < kanzure> ybit: did you not encounter that problem yet? 23:43 < fenn> genehacker: no 23:43 < kanzure> genehacker: we have assemblies 23:43 < fenn> it doesn't exist yet 23:43 < ncravens> so what amount of knowledge do you need to be 'satisfied'? And what percentage of the way have you compiled a 'sufficient' amount of manufacturing process data? 23:44 < ybit> i'm looking at it now 23:44 < fenn> the closest thing is the assembly graph 23:44 < genehacker> but it can figure out how parts go together? 23:44 < fenn> but that's just a graphviz file 23:44 < ybit> MoniTool_wrap.cpp, line 7297, geezus fscking christ 23:44 < kanzure> genehacker: yes right now it can figure out whether or not two parts are compatible and if certain ports or interfaces are compatible 23:44 < kanzure> ybit: it's generated code :( 23:44 < kanzure> ncravens: it's not a matter of a percentage .. it's just a matter of the fact that right now skdb has screws, threads and legos 23:44 < genehacker> any two parts? 23:45 < kanzure> genehacker: if they are defined in skdb yeah 23:45 < kanzure> i told you about this yesterday 23:45 < genehacker> ok 23:45 < genehacker> I fail 23:45 < kanzure> the idea of looking at a coordinate frame in a cad file 23:45 < kanzure> and then extracting this information for use in skdb 23:45 < kanzure> so you just have to put these little three coordinate axises at the spot of the orientation of the port on a part 23:45 < ncravens> yes. . . 23:45 < genehacker> could you direct me to an example of an assembly graph? 23:45 < fenn> ncravens: i want a similar amount of knowledge in the database about each field as i could read in an afternoon 23:46 < ncravens> fenn: what's yer words per minute? 23:46 < kanzure> genehacker: http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/connection_graph.png 23:46 < fenn> for reading? well i'm pretty slow because i actually read what's there 23:46 < kanzure> genehacker: http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/lego_cgraph.png 23:46 < genehacker> are those possible connection points? 23:47 < genehacker> or connected points? 23:47 < ncravens> ;p 23:47 < kanzure> genehacker: in the second graph it should be more clear 23:47 < ncravens> I'm slow at reading because I amplify what's not. 23:47 < fenn> i should make another screenshot with both the 3d view and the icons 23:47 < genehacker> that's good enough for what I'd like todo 23:48 < kanzure> neat 23:48 < genehacker> thanks 23:48 < genehacker> though I don't know much about programming 23:48 < ncravens> hmmm... so its a matter of creating things in cad based on physical laws and having that cad program break down the assembly points and spit out dat data on the web. . . . . . 23:48 * fenn stares at the ceiling 23:48 < kanzure> well if you have some STEP or IGES files, we can take a look 23:48 < kanzure> fenn: try changing your relative angle 23:48 < genehacker> here's what I want to do kanzure 23:49 * fenn braces for impact 23:49 < genehacker> I want to make something that figures out how to get to assembly of lego blocks 23:49 < ncravens> it would also need to spit out what tools are need to assemble these points from the cad file. 23:49 < genehacker> do you have descriptions of the interface? 23:49 < kanzure> genehacker: yes fenn wrote out a lego grammar 23:49 < kanzure> it covers the majority of lego interfaces 23:49 < genehacker> does it have tolerances? 23:50 < fenn> i also wonder why you're asking kanzure all this stuff and not me 23:50 < genehacker> and force necessary for connection fenn? 23:50 < ncravens> I'm asking you bofe. 23:50 < kanzure> well there's this: http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/packages/lego/dimensions.yaml 23:50 < kanzure> but that's not used any where yet 23:50 < fenn> i estimated forces for stud but it's not a very accurate measurement 23:50 < fenn> the fields are only filled in for 'stud' and 'anti stud' i think 23:51 < genehacker> hmmm... 23:51 < fenn> multiply by number of studs 23:51 < genehacker> I can see how that would be hard 23:51 < fenn> nah it's not hard i just didnt have any measuring tools 23:52 < ybit> right now i hate danielfalck, not really, just jealous he flippantly mentions that he has occ and pythoncc 23:52 < fenn> i filled up a bottle of water and estimated the volume required to compress one stud :) 23:52 < ybit> the he mentions mac, and i really do hate him 23:52 < genehacker> perhaps we could use fit data to figure that out 23:52 < kanzure> ybit: are you or are you not getting the PyObject errors? 23:52 < kanzure> how are you getting the wx.aui errors? 23:52 < genehacker> are legos interference fits or friction fits? 23:52 < ybit> yes, i had to restart X just awhile ago 23:52 < kanzure> sorry, what? 23:52 < kanzure> yes to what? 23:53 < fenn> genehacker: is there a difference? 23:53 < ybit> xmonad likes to freeze on me in debian for some strange reason, and i don't care for debugging it atm 23:53 < genehacker> no I guess not 23:53 < fenn> genehacker: in any case i don't know the exact amount of interference so we just have to use the measurement data as-is 23:53 < genehacker> lego looks like they may have data on this 23:53 < ybit> that was from me attempting to launch /home/heath/builds/pythonOCC/src/samples/Tools/InteractiveViewer/InteractiveViewer.py not from /home/kanzure 23:54 < kanzure> ybit: shouldn't matter where it's from 23:54 < fenn> and how do you measure interference for something like a claw-hand? 23:54 < genehacker> interesting 23:55 < genehacker> lego stud holes are slightly beveled on the inside 23:55 < fenn> you know using a lego figure for the instructional demonstrations seems much easier than messing around with cal3d 23:55 < genehacker> interference for a claw hand? 23:55 < ybit> that's true, but i mentioned what user dir because there are certain parts of the install that user heath hasn't reached 23:55 < kanzure> ybit: oh so you're trying to skip ahead 23:56 < ybit> for the fun of it, sure i was 23:56 < kanzure> fenn: i want to be darth vader 23:56 < ybit> anywho /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/MoniTool_wrap.cpp:7297: error: invalid initialization of reference of type 'char*&' from expression of type 'const char*' 23:56 < kanzure> do you get that in heath's copy too? 23:56 < ncravens> sounds as if Saul had a good childhood, at least, the 'right' sort of childhood to be doin' what he does . . . http://makezine.com/03/ultimate/ 23:56 < ybit> no, in kanzure 23:56 < kanzure> do you get something else in heath's copy? 23:56 < kanzure> i guess you would 23:56 < fenn> yes saul is a badass can we please never bring up the subject again? k thx 23:56 < ybit> let's see 23:56 < kanzure> since the environment.py file is different 23:56 < kanzure> nevermind ybit :) 23:57 < ncravens> rofl! 23:57 < genehacker> woo they have interference fit data calculation formulaE 23:57 < ybit> um, yeah i do :P 23:57 < genehacker> oh dear god 23:57 < ybit> heath@togetic:~/builds/pythonOCC/src$ python setup.py build -NO_GEOM 23:57 < ybit> Building pythonOCC-path_to_0.4 for linux2. 23:57 < ybit> running build 23:57 < ybit> running build_py 23:57 < ybit> copying OCC/Standard.py -> build/lib.linux-i686-2.5/OCC 23:57 < ybit> error: could not delete 'build/lib.linux-i686-2.5/OCC/Standard.py': Permission denied 23:57 < ncravens> does Saul talk to you folx or answer his e-mail? 23:57 < kanzure> no 23:58 * ybit hasn't attempted to contact saul 23:58 < ncravens> Damn. its a wonder Smari even talks to me. . . . 23:58 < ybit> i'm sure he would stop what he was doing to answer every question have though 23:58 < ncravens> that would save some time/effort . . . ? 23:58 < fenn> ybit: how is it you know what danielfalck is doing? 23:59 < genehacker> fenn are nearly all bar, plate, and brick lego block in skdb? 23:59 < ybit> i monitor every flippin channel on freenode? 23:59 < fenn> are you constantly hitting reload or something? 23:59 < fenn> genehacker: no, there are only 4 bricks atm