--- Day changed Mon Sep 28 2009 00:06 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.63.141] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:10 < fenn> i'd much rather have a standardized certification test that can be transferred around between various fabratories so you don't have to get re-certified at every location 00:10 < fenn> instead of a 'diploma' 00:10 < fenn> this is re: fab academy 00:11 < fenn> also a computerized format to represent the skills people have could be useful 00:11 < fenn> 'who knows how to fix this thing and is currently here?' 00:12 < Noahj> Hmm, that's a good idea, I don't think fab academy has a final exam yet, but when it does it should be portable beyond the academy itself 00:12 < fenn> i don't mean a final exam, i'd much rather have individual skill-specific exams 00:13 < fenn> because 'final exam' is so wishy washy anyway and would change from place to place 00:13 < fenn> that's why modern education is useless, you don't know what skills the person actually has 00:16 < Noahj> A fab academy diploma's supposed to represent all the certificates 00:16 < Noahj> And eventually there will be fab academies at every fab lab 00:16 < fenn> but most people don't need or want all of the skills 00:16 < fenn> you'd have to complete everything before getting a diploma 00:17 < genehacker> anyway there are few fablabs 00:17 < Noahj> No, you can just get a certificate in a specific skill 00:17 < fenn> i just want to know what they're capable of doing, not whether they're a rounded "completely literate person" 00:17 < genehacker> I think they're cool and all but are they successful in their goals? 00:18 < fenn> what's the point of a diploma? 00:18 < Noahj> A diploma is just all the certificates 00:18 < fenn> but what is "all"? 00:18 < Noahj> There's a list of certificates on the fab academy website 00:18 < fenn> if you add a new certificat next year do you take away peoples' diplomas until they do that one? 00:19 < Noahj> Hmm 00:19 < genehacker> blah blah blah it's just a piece of paper 00:19 < Noahj> That sounds like an impractical way to go about it 00:19 < fenn> "all the courses some place offered in 2009" is a research project in itself 00:20 < fenn> how will you disseminate the information about what a diploma means? 00:20 < fenn> if i have a diploma, how do you know i'm qualified to use XYZ machine no questions asked 00:20 < Noahj> Well, I don't expect a lot to change year-to-year 00:21 < fenn> see what i'm getting at? i want to just wave my piece of paper and get to work 00:21 < fenn> but the guy responsible for me not getting killed or damaging stuff has to know that i know how to use XYZ machine 00:21 < fenn> so he has to look up exactly what this piece of paper means 00:22 < genehacker> a lot does change though 00:22 < genehacker> new machines come out, interfaces change, heck maybe new file formats get introduced 00:22 < Noahj> I think we could fix this by printing the list of certificates the diploma covers on the diploma itself 00:23 < fenn> ok but i still think the whole 'diploma' is just silly 00:23 < Noahj> Yeah, re-taking a class every year to certify yourself in the latest kind of laser printer seems a bit like an overkill 00:23 < fenn> also the point i was originally getting at was that you shouldn't have to take the class to get certified 00:24 < Noahj> I think the diploma aspect is to cater to Boeing and people who want resumes, it's not inherently any better than a collection of certificates 00:24 < fenn> if you can demonstrate you know what you're doing with some standardized test, you shouldn't have to take the class that supposedly prepares you for that test 00:24 < genehacker> I think that is a valid point 00:24 < genehacker> instead of having certification why not just read the manual 00:24 < Noahj> I think the fab academy will be a bit more hands-on than that, but I really can't say 00:25 < fenn> there's a lot of stuff that's not in "the manual" 00:25 < fenn> also a lot of procedural knowledge (habit forming) 00:25 < Noahj> A fab academy certification is kind of like a road-test for fab lab tools, as far as I can tell 00:25 < fenn> if you show up in sandals to do welding you fail 00:26 < genehacker> or shorts to a machine shop 00:27 < genehacker> anyway let's forget the fab academy 00:27 < fenn> pants just keep you from getting chips in your shoes :) 00:27 < fenn> i assumed it was why noah was here 00:28 < genehacker> anyway 00:28 < genehacker> so I'm wondering about something 00:29 < genehacker> there are these sponges that can make glass from seawater 00:29 < fenn> diatoms? 00:29 < genehacker> no sponges 00:29 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus%27_Flower_Basket 00:30 < genehacker> now if you can make glass fibers you can can make glass fiber composites 00:32 < fenn> interesting 00:33 < genehacker> now then figure out how to grow glass fibers in a natural polyester matrix and BAM! you're on the way to growing huge living spaceships/monsters 00:34 < fenn> i guess 00:34 < fenn> metalloproteins are more interesting 00:34 < genehacker> yeah 00:34 < genehacker> they are 00:34 < genehacker> quite simple too 00:35 < genehacker> I wonder why there aren't any organisms with metal in them 00:35 < genehacker> IE structural metal components 00:35 < fenn> i remember some ant has copper? titanium? protein composite mandibles 00:36 < genehacker> whoa 00:36 < genehacker> I'd expect copper 00:37 < fenn> now i can't find the article 00:37 < genehacker> I think I found it 00:37 < genehacker> holy shit 00:37 < genehacker> you're right 00:37 < genehacker> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WCB-45N4PCG-P&_user=108429&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1026318970&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000059713&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=108429&md5=b1802b666435c30a6fca71236a557c68 00:39 < fenn> manganese and zinc 00:40 < genehacker> I wonder if it's because there isn't that much available metal in the biosphere 00:40 < genehacker> but there is now 00:42 < fenn> zinc metal isn't bioavailable 00:43 < fenn> besides termites don't eat metal 00:43 < genehacker> they eat wood 00:43 < genehacker> which has tiny amounts of zinc 00:44 < fenn> it also has all sorts of other metals 00:44 < genehacker> but not in large amounts 00:45 < genehacker> hmm... 00:45 < genehacker> there are metal reducing bacteria 00:46 < fenn> apparently pregnant women sometimes get cravings for red dirt and eat it (you can get it in southern restaurants!) 00:46 < genehacker> and reducing metal cations is how you do electroplating 00:46 < fenn> for the iron 00:46 < genehacker> there is also a disease know as pika 00:46 < genehacker> now that's weird 00:47 < genehacker> pica 00:48 < fenn> LOL "My friend has Asperger Syndrome, how can I help?" 00:48 < genehacker> I wonder how that evolved 00:48 < genehacker> and how it happens 00:49 < fenn> um, where do you think all that iron comes from? 00:49 < fenn> you have like 1 gram of iron in your body 00:54 < genehacker> no I wonder how it happens in the brain 00:54 < genehacker> time to read up on neural networks 00:54 < fenn> i think it's because we know what iron tastes like 00:57 < fenn> hm i think google brought back 'dont fuck up my search query with word substitutions' magic plus sign 01:00 < fenn> can you find the sliver you're actually allowed to use? http://www.thingmagic.com/images/frequency_big.jpg 01:06 < fenn> this has the whole thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_allocation 01:22 < AchiestDragon> katsmeow-afk: / drazak : a couple of pointers on audio amps , use bifet opamps something like a opa228pa there is a noticable diference even if spec wise there seems to be no real diference 01:24 < AchiestDragon> fets / mosfets like tubes are current mode devices where transistors are voltage mode ,,, you may see quite a few audiophile bods saying how good tube amps are copmared to transistor/ic types 01:27 < AchiestDragon> theres verry few true mosfet designs arround ,, if you do take the time to get all semiconductors on the audio path to be mosfets /fet devices then you would get one of the few semiconductor amps that equels the tube amps on tone, audio qualaty and give you a nice flat responce in the process 01:29 < AchiestDragon> although a few of the top names in the audio industry (top qualaty audio wise that is ) did produce mosfet designs seems that they stoped the only reason is the audio mags just started to proclame that all the semiconductor amps dont beat tubes 01:32 < AchiestDragon> so even if mosfets are better there not tubes so the audiophile's think there no good because there not tubes ,, genaraly they would not want to show that amp to there mates on account of the fact its not got nice glowing bottles in it eating up 4* the electric nomater how good the amps actualy are 01:34 < AchiestDragon> like the same sort of people that would beleve microsocks adviertizing and think that linux is some pirate version of win95 01:34 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.63.141] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:37 < fenn> my favorite is the 'plinths' little blocks they use to keep the speaker cord off the ground, to prevent ground loops :) 01:37 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 01:37 < fenn> "it should only contact the ground at one point" 01:41 < fenn> i can't figure out who buys any of the crap on crunchwear.com 01:41 < fenn> "ipod enabled" and led illuminated clothes 01:43 < AchiestDragon> http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/10V-PSU.pdf < alternate way to get the +- v supply for opamps when you have only a single supply rail 01:43 < fenn> lots of handbags with lcd screens playing various disney movies 01:47 < AchiestDragon> yea speaker cables there is a diference on a 100w rms amp into 8ohm you are looking at needing a psu that will give about 8A at +- 55v when playing music its the peek responce that matters thin speakre cable would tend to act like resistive current limiting so not giving the desiered peek responce 01:48 < fenn> why 8A? 01:51 < AchiestDragon> 4A per chan and over rated enough that when you do get a music peek that causes the caps in the psu to almost discharge that theres enough left in the psu to recharege the caps while still ensuring the psu voltage does not dip 01:59 < AchiestDragon> but for a simple design that works with normal qualaty (ie its often used on commertial kit use a lm356n single chip 1w audio amp , ideal for use as a headphone amp and single supply 02:02 < AchiestDragon> but its not studio quality 02:36 < fenn> i am wondering what this has to do with "3d printing" http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/10/03/all-the-cool-kids-wear-air-jordan-prosthetics/ 02:40 < AchiestDragon> because they use 3d printing to ensure that they get the fit right 02:42 < AchiestDragon> if you lose a leg then the stump left would have a unique shape to the end ,, that prosthetic has to fit to that shape 02:42 < fenn> obviously there are easier ways of doing that 02:42 < fenn> like polymorph for example 02:42 < AchiestDragon> not practical 02:42 < fenn> apparently making an exact fit is not the right way to do it anyway 02:43 < fenn> the "luke arm" uses this spider shaped gripper that wraps all the way around the stump 02:43 < AchiestDragon> ie you get the end of the stump scanned and you can just reorder the prosthetic without having to get it rescanned 02:45 < AchiestDragon> and yea its not an exact fit and you cant take a mould because there may be indented surfaces in the stump that would need to be removed in order to get it to slide on to it 02:45 < fenn> i just dont think that's what they did 02:46 < AchiestDragon> so they do a 3d scan then modifiy the surface to get the correct shape then plot it to that shape 02:47 < AchiestDragon> they do the same when making false teeth ,,, they take a mold , the mold gets scanned they modify the scanned image to get it to fit correctly then cnc out the plate to that shape 02:49 < AchiestDragon> know a guy that makes false teeth ,, hes got a cnc machine that that is accurate to a single micron 02:51 < fenn> overkill for a tooth 02:51 < AchiestDragon> theres also a guy not far away that makes custom hand grips for sporting rifles ,, again he scans the hand and mods the data to get the grip usable ,, but fits perfect then even if the user is missing a finger 02:51 < fenn> how exactly does that work? i mean "scans the hand and mods the data" 02:54 < AchiestDragon> you take a mould but if you just used that then you would need to cut away the outer surface ie you just want the inner surfaces of the hand that actualy touch the surfce so you have to edit the scanned 3d model to just get the mating surfaces 02:55 < AchiestDragon> then you may need to mod the mating surfaces so that theres no odd bits sticking out 02:55 < AchiestDragon> its easy to do in cad 02:55 < AchiestDragon> but a total pita if you are trying to cut up the original mould to get it the right shape 02:56 < AchiestDragon> if you make a mistake ediditing it then you got to recall the guy so they can take another mould 02:57 < AchiestDragon> rather than beeing able to just reload the original scan data and start again 02:58 < AchiestDragon> overkill maybe , but its both an effective way to do it and cost effective not to metntion no having a warehouse full of old moulds so that you got a referance incase of a reorder 02:59 < fenn> right 03:00 < AchiestDragon> phisicaly storeing 1000 or so plastic legs is going to cost quite a bit of ground rent and heating overheads on a yearly basis , not to mention the staff to manage the catalogeing of it 03:02 < AchiestDragon> not to mention distance problems ,,, it would be a pain for a person in say LA having to go to NY to get a mould taken , when there may be a place in LA that can scan the surface and send them the 3d moddel file 03:07 < AchiestDragon> as to overkill on the accuracy ,,, well better to have the item made to a couple of microns tolarance than gt sued $1,000,000 because by someone who says it dose not fit right they must of made it wrong 03:11 < AchiestDragon> and do remeber false teeth are not a one pice mould ,, the teeth part are all individualy cut to shape and mounted on the individualy formed plate 03:14 < AchiestDragon> so a bit more advanced these days than a guy sat there with a dremmill individualy hand sculpturing each one from resin then casting a metal copy of that 03:18 < AchiestDragon> what they do for crowns these days is to take a mould of the tooth before they start ,, big hole in it included ,, they send that mould off it gets scanned a guy then edits out the hole on the scan so as to rebiuild the surface ,, computer match it so that the sape fits normal jaw movments and will not bind with other teeth and cnc cut the crown from that 03:20 < AchiestDragon> the dentist in the mean time has got the tooth ground down and filled ins such a way as to take that crown ready for the 2 to 3 weeks it usualy takes to arrive 03:23 < AchiestDragon> in engineering you will find nothing that comes close to the requiremnets that have to use for medical kit , all over rated and over spec for what you would think is needed ,, and its needed for one of the above mentioned reasons 03:25 < AchiestDragon> car manufacture for example well other than making parts that actualy work and fit correctly theres no manatary tolarances like the stearing wheel dia can be 10" or 20" 03:28 < AchiestDragon> the next major one is equipment for food use ,, like as for cars but materal types , oil grades and types , have to be good enough , then theres scientific equipment that tends to be high tolarance , then medical kit where its high tolarance and specified material types 03:29 < AchiestDragon> theres also space grade kit like medical but a diferent set of materials and requirements 03:33 < AchiestDragon> genaral machining for consumer equipment is ususaly only acurate to about 1mil (imperial) 03:34 < AchiestDragon> even if the machines are capable of higher that they have to be anyway like 0.2 mil would be common 03:35 < AchiestDragon> you could start to feel that amount of error if it was a step in the surface of that 03:36 < AchiestDragon> if you can't ask a blind man to 03:40 < AchiestDragon> with the prosthetics another aspect that you would probablay overlook is the fact that in contact with it you have living skin ,, that sweats and can stick to it ,, any error would make that effect uneaven that can lead to irritation 03:40 < AchiestDragon> irritation causes swelling that means it nolonger fits , situation gets worse 03:43 < AchiestDragon> unlike metal on metal where that sort of error would naturlay ware down the surfaces so its not as mutch of a problem 03:47 < fenn> i'm still trying to figure this thing out http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/10/31/embrace-your-femininity/ 03:48 < fenn> after several hours i have figured out that stuff on yanko design is not necessarily developed into a real product or even plausible 03:49 < fenn> but some of it is.. and they never say what's real or not! so frustrating 03:50 < AchiestDragon> well many companies do put prof of concept systems there like they have been showing 3d laser projection tvs at shows for some time but still to see 1 of them actualy on sale 03:51 < AchiestDragon> they need to in order to get feedback and hopefully orders so they can assess if they can get funding for production 03:53 < AchiestDragon> for example if you came up with a machine that could open any packet you put in it properly ,, then it may be a realy good idea and a realy good system ,, ok so it may cost a couple of milion per machine , so is it going to be worth making them 03:56 < AchiestDragon> well bet you got a realy limited customer base ,, i cant think of one place that would need to open enough random types of packets ie from a pill bottle to a fraight container that could justify having one 03:56 < AchiestDragon> maybe with the execption of customs 03:57 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:57 < AchiestDragon> at this point the design enginers think ho good another product idea one to repackage them after ,, and the accountant heads to the bank and files banckrupsy 04:00 < AchiestDragon> rambling on i am ,, will stop 04:08 < fenn> ok i hope this one isn't a real product http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/09/09/hitch-a-free-ride/ 04:11 < fenn> hmm two snow crash references in one day.. guess i must read it 04:18 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:55 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-100-209.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:06 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-100-209.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:53 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@24.245.50.49] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:55 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-174-181.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:00 -!- wrldpc2_ [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:41 < drazak> AchiestDragon: heh, I know exactly how good tube amps, I have a golden tube SE100SE and a fischer x100, both very good tube amps, bipolar mosfets however are very hard to use, they're cranky and need to have the design be made around them 10:45 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-174-181.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:45 < drazak> AchiestDragon: they also aren't suitable for battery powered amps, too much current draw 10:46 < AchiestDragon> i have built one some years back ,, i used some rather large power mosfets ,, was rated at 400W rms per chan on 4 chans ,,(about 1.5kw peek music power as the usual " fake blurb spec" that they try to parm you off with ) 10:47 < AchiestDragon> its worth doing on that 10:51 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.63.141] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:51 < katsmeow-afk> i have had bipolar and tubes, i prefer a limited set of bipolars 10:52 < katsmeow-afk> had an Eico 35w/chan tube, and a lil mono for center channel, and then had a Sansui AU7700 and a Marantz ,, i prefered the Marantz 10:55 < drazak> marantz makes some nice stuff 10:55 < drazak> I like tubes though 10:55 < katsmeow-afk> the Eico was a serious room heater, the Sansui had a fine enough preamp section (it's power amp oscillated driving reactive loads), and the Marantz couldn't be beat for power and clarity (tho the 135v that the powerco delivered did beat it into submission -- poof) 10:56 < katsmeow-afk> +/- 80v mains can deliver some kinda brute force 10:58 < katsmeow-afk> i spent 2 hrs trying to unload Norton from a computer, finally resorting to manually deleting all references to Norton from the registry 10:58 < drazak> that's what you have to do, sadly 10:58 < drazak> I remember when norton didn't suck 10:58 < katsmeow-afk> me too, like prior to windoze98 11:01 < katsmeow-afk> i still have the Sansui and the Marantz, i stopped all electronics work at the start of the Dog Era, so no controlled psu to plug either into, so i didn't bother replacing their power outputs for the 3nd time each 11:02 < drazak> hehe 11:02 < katsmeow-afk> got a cheap JVC SuperA i been using 11:02 < drazak> ew 11:02 < drazak> you need to listen to some mcintosh tubes though 11:03 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, no low end, bad components thruout, and no speaker damping 11:03 < katsmeow-afk> i knew someone who had a mac 11:03 < katsmeow-afk> he spend $1000's on each of those things 11:04 < katsmeow-afk> i think the only way i'd go back to tubes is if the speakers could be driven directly by the tubes, with no transformer 11:04 < drazak> yeah 11:04 < drazak> I just like tubes 11:04 < drazak> :) 11:06 < katsmeow-afk> i could build one again,, i have 14 6AS7G sitting right here, and some 6080's 6SL7's and 2000 assorted other tubes 11:06 < katsmeow-afk> not that i am into tubes ;-) 11:08 < katsmeow-afk> the sweetest sounding amp i ever heard was a olde vac tube amp with 6L6 outputs (!!!!) and electromagnet speakers 11:08 < katsmeow-afk> it put the oooooo in smooooth 11:09 < katsmeow-afk> ya know, you prolly could drive a speaker *enclosure* directly with vac tubes, if you series a mess of 16 or 32 ohm voice coils 11:09 < katsmeow-afk> and enough tubes 11:10 < katsmeow-afk> capacitiavely coupled them to a class A , with a choke for the plate's dc 11:10 < katsmeow-afk> no transformer 11:10 < drazak> hehe 11:10 < drazak> the fischer takes 6l6I think 11:11 < katsmeow-afk> 6L6 was known to be a dirty amp tho,, or am i thinking of the 6V6 ? 11:11 < katsmeow-afk> iirc, one of the 2 was very nonlinear 11:12 < drazak> oops, EL34 11:12 < katsmeow-afk> had to use careful design abd lots local feedback 11:12 < katsmeow-afk> which is ok with me, i never liked gobs of global feedback 11:13 < katsmeow-afk> i'd rather have [clean stage] - [clean stage] - [clean stage] 11:13 < katsmeow-afk> saves on phase margins 11:18 < drazak> tube amp with all smd components but the tubes 11:19 < katsmeow-afk> heh 11:19 < katsmeow-afk> smd 300v caps 11:19 < katsmeow-afk> smd 5w resistors, lol 11:20 < katsmeow-afk> i'd hate to see a pcb that had a 5U4 socket mounted to it for long! 11:20 < katsmeow-afk> unless it was fan cooled, of course 11:20 < katsmeow-afk> seen too many of those with glowy plates 11:21 < katsmeow-afk> have you seen the steam punk watches with vac tube displays, and solid state other guts? 11:22 < katsmeow-afk> the chips ran on battery power, and you press a button gto turn on hv to the tubes to see the time 11:27 < drazak> nice 11:37 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h192n2c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:39 < kanzure> hello splicer 11:50 < kanzure> joshua keena just emailed me 20 SLDPRT files 11:50 < kanzure> for the page turning device 11:50 < splicer> hi kanzure 11:51 < kanzure> 84 attachments in an email? this guy needs to learn about archives 11:53 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:55 < genehacker> whoa 11:57 < genehacker> post that on hey bryan 11:57 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58 < kanzure> genehacker: uploading now. 11:59 < kanzure> hm. is there a way to make an ink that chemically bonds to a gas? 11:59 < kanzure> it would be much more effective to just put a book in a chamber, and ramp up the pressure with some gas that would make a magnetic particle bond to the ink on the pages 12:00 < kanzure> and then just do magnetic resonance to scan in the book 12:00 < kanzure> actually i guess it could be liquid 12:00 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure there's magnetic ink somewhere out there.. 12:04 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/ezreaderfiles.zip 12:04 < kanzure> (6.9 MB) 12:05 < genehacker> yup 12:05 < genehacker> there is 12:05 < genehacker> magnetic paint at least 12:05 < genehacker> you could do some weird x-ray stuff 12:05 < genehacker> if you had a very very very fast computer 12:06 < genehacker> most inks already contain iron 12:06 < kanzure> is that so 12:06 < genehacker> but I'm not so sure about NMRing books to scan them in 12:07 < kanzure> it's faster than flipping pages 12:07 < genehacker> yeah but how do you image a bunch of really thin iron containing layers stacked on top of each other? 12:08 < kanzure> i don't know the layer thickness of MRI 12:08 < kanzure> but i imagine that it would just be a matter of putting the book on a stage and adjusting it 12:09 < genehacker> it's on the order of millimeters at best 12:09 < genehacker> hmmm... 12:09 < kanzure> how thick is a page? 500 microns? 12:09 < genehacker> paper is 0.1 millimeters the best MRI machines are about that 12:10 < genehacker> so it might be doable 12:10 < genehacker> what about turning the raw data into to ebook though, that could take some time 12:11 < kanzure> i guess the real trick is doing OCR in less time than it takes to flip a page 12:11 < kanzure> otherwise you're boned 12:11 < genehacker> yeah 12:12 < genehacker> what if the book has pictures? 12:12 < genehacker> black and white pictures 12:12 < kanzure> there's this algorithm known as image segmentation 12:12 < kanzure> where you can separate different portions of a page based off of white space between the regions 12:12 < kanzure> see here: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/scripts/segment_image 12:13 < genehacker> anyway mri has 0.1 millimeter resolution at the very very best 12:13 < genehacker> letters and pictures are higher res 12:13 < kanzure> no that wasn't the problem 12:13 < kanzure> the problem was the thickness of pages 12:13 < kanzure> so to account for that you can put the book on a stage and just have it slowly move up and down until it comes into focus in the MRI machine 12:13 < kanzure> but hopefully that wouldn't be needed 12:14 < genehacker> what has someone tried this before 12:15 < kanzure> probably? 12:15 < genehacker> hmmm... maybe we could ask the MRI expert in the EE building who's doing hi-res MRI if this is possible 12:33 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:48 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.63.141] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:58 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-169-215.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:06 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-169-215.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14 < AchiestDragon> katsmeow-afk: drazak: have a th331 tube here would make a nice 3kw rms audio amp , but the transformer would be rather large not to mention the other 2 transformers needed for the mains like the 4.8kv at 1A for the annode and 12v at 60A for the heater 15:15 < drazak> heh 15:16 < AchiestDragon> they would be about 50 to 60 kg each 15:16 < drazak> haha 15:16 < drazak> nice 15:17 < drazak> I have a 80kg tandberg 15:20 < AchiestDragon> one thing i learned some time ago with amature radio equipment is , its posible to home build equipment with the same sort of specs and performance as high end broadcast kit for the price of top qualaty amature kit 15:20 < drazak> yeah, it's crazy 15:21 < AchiestDragon> in audio terms thats like having say a studio mixing desk as your preamp 15:21 < drazak> the most expensive things are like, stepped attenuators and stuff 15:21 < drazak> at 130$ a piece 15:21 < drazak> for two channels 15:21 < AchiestDragon> but the commertal kit is made for cost and featres rather than a qualaty that realy matters 15:21 < drazak> that's one of the things found in hifi stuff that's a bitceh to get yourslef 15:23 < AchiestDragon> actualy today ,, the most expencive bits are the ADC's and DAC's used to convert the signal to digital then digitaly mix and process the data using "hardware" in a fpga 15:23 < drazak> well, yes 15:26 < AchiestDragon> if you got the ADC sample rate at double the freqancy then you can directly decode most radio signals formats in the fpga using fft and spectrum algorithms implimented in hardware in the fpga 15:27 < drazak> heh 15:27 < drazak> I know nothing about DACS and ADC's 15:27 < AchiestDragon> well the none encripted signals that is 15:27 < drazak> other than my rio karma has one of the highend ones that they always talk about on audio forums 15:28 < AchiestDragon> well a adc converts a analog voltage to a digital value that reflects the percentage of that voltage in relation to a referance voltage 15:28 < drazak> I know what they do :) 15:29 < drazak> I just know none of the details 15:29 < AchiestDragon> :) save me rambling 15:30 < AchiestDragon> well with a referance of 1v and 8 bits then 1v on the input gives a binary 255 out , 0.5v on the input gives a binary 128 out 15:30 < AchiestDragon> the dac same in reverse 15:31 < AchiestDragon> to mix a signal its input a plus input b and ouput result to output dac 15:31 < AchiestDragon> to reduce the volume by half you divide by 2 15:32 < AchiestDragon> no analog pots to get dirty contacts and be noisy when moved that way 15:33 < AchiestDragon> you dont use pots linear or rotary optical encoders 15:35 < AchiestDragon> with motor overides if you are wanting to make it like a proper midi compatable mixer 15:36 < AchiestDragon> but a pot costs like 20cents ,, a optical encoder assembly like that and your not going to get 20cents back from $200 per control ,, but there nice 15:37 < drazak> a nice pot is like 26 bucks :D 15:40 < AchiestDragon> ADC for a 160khz sample rate 48bit single one is £26 gbp ,, a 1600 gate fpga module £160 the DAC about the same thats about £300 for the digital control dont know what the current exhange rate is to $ 15:42 < AchiestDragon> could eather control it by a pc or as theres space configure softcore micro inside the fpga and have it read a digital front pannel or use some cheap adcs to read pot values 15:43 < AchiestDragon> reading pot values via a adc is fine you slow sample them so you lose any noise it may give 15:45 < AchiestDragon> plus at 160k samples per second per chan and 48bits the signal in and out of the digital section is better qualaty than anything you could manage in analog so the rest is down to what input preamp you may need and whatever final amp and speakers you use 15:46 < AchiestDragon> cd quality is only 48khz 15:48 < AchiestDragon> studio commertial mixers that use fpgas these days as there not produced in enough numbers to justify making an asic , also using fpgas you can flash them an update 15:49 < AchiestDragon> or reporgam bits of them on the fly 15:51 < AchiestDragon> since i have not managed to fund a pcb i need to make ,, been attempting now since jan , im building a cnc machine so i can mill the thing out 15:52 < AchiestDragon> like its a pair of £200 full pannels 15:53 < AchiestDragon> only had funds to cover £100 so far can get a cnc working for that 15:53 < AchiestDragon> well have most of the bits anyway 15:55 < AchiestDragon> got the z axis leadscews mounted on it today ,, just the x and y leadscrews to fit then i should be able to test the drives , and start to allign it all 15:56 < AchiestDragon> should have it working by the weekend 15:57 < AchiestDragon> theres the outer frame and case to make for it also but got the bits for that also 15:58 < AchiestDragon> http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/dscf2320.jpg 16:02 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 16:06 -!- kardan [i=kardan@78.46.51.71] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07 < AchiestDragon> after some discusion the machine i was going to build is to be redesigned from scratch as its been decided it should have to be able to machine brass and stainless steel 16:07 < kanzure> which machine? 16:07 < AchiestDragon> and needs to be 5 axis 16:08 < kanzure> have you looked at hextatic yet? 16:08 < AchiestDragon> the one i uploaded to you 16:08 < kanzure> http://fennetic.com/gingery_machines/index.php?hextatic 16:08 < AchiestDragon> ho that design 16:09 < AchiestDragon> yea seen that but unless you spend an awfull lot of cash your not going to be able to build one with the strenth needed to do more than plastics 16:10 < AchiestDragon> ie the load on a 20mm dia solid stainless steel bar the bar would flex at 200mm along more than +- 1mm 16:11 < AchiestDragon> thats doing aluminium ,,, would need to be a cast block if on stainless steel and some tungsten alloys 16:11 < kanzure> fenn: hey didn't Part used to inherit from Shape? 16:13 < kanzure> ah there's Part.shape 16:16 < AchiestDragon> well for me yet another project where my design is fine , but the end result is totaly diferent to the plans i drew up 16:17 < AchiestDragon> will see if i can find a pic of the old machine its going to replace 16:20 < ybit> fenn, kanzure: do you have CASROOT and CSF_* definied in your .bashrc? 16:20 < kanzure> yes 16:20 < kanzure> export CASROOT=~/local/opencascade/OpenCASCADE6.3.0/ros/ 16:20 < kanzure> export CSF_GraphicShr=/usr/lib/libTKOpenGl.so 16:22 < AchiestDragon> http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/dscf2315.jpg 16:23 < AchiestDragon> the old machine is to heavy and big to get inside ( first floor flat here) so it sits in a little shead outside ,, where its rusting away and its only realy usable during summer here 16:24 < AchiestDragon> it also takes a 500W router so is a bit too noisy to use indoors 16:25 < AchiestDragon> the aluminium one will take a dremel so will be quiet enough and light enough to use here on the desk 16:26 < AchiestDragon> can then concentrate on making a 5 axis machine that will do metal that can go where the old one is , but will be next summers project that 16:26 < AchiestDragon> so the machining time i have avalable is going to be spent making the custom bits for that 16:29 < AchiestDragon> so if i get this machine working for the end of the month then can get the pcbs made intime to build up the radio project that i have already acumulated more than 50% of the bits for 16:29 < AchiestDragon> like £800 so far 16:30 < AchiestDragon> but still under half what my estimate was 16:30 < AchiestDragon> :) 16:32 < AchiestDragon> but still £3000 less than the rhoads and swarts profesional equivelent 16:33 < AchiestDragon> well i dont work you can say im retiered so got to find something to do to pass the time 16:34 < kanzure> you don't need an excuse 16:36 < AchiestDragon> to me its fun ,, done electronc design for a number of years profesionaly , digital , analog and rf and audio plus i did engineering at collage many years back also 16:38 < AchiestDragon> bigest problem you get doing home construction are the tools you genaraly have at hand 16:39 < AchiestDragon> now to do a proper job you find you need lathes and a milling machine ,, that there biggest problem is space ,, a sutable mini workshop is about the size of a 2 car garrage 16:40 < AchiestDragon> space i dont have , neather do many others 16:40 < AchiestDragon> you cant realy fit a 500kg 1/2 ton machine on the desk 16:41 < AchiestDragon> the router design you can 16:42 < AchiestDragon> the old machine was designed to machine aluminium plate ,, it would do that but would need a coolant system fitting 16:42 < AchiestDragon> with a coolant system fitted then because of all the crap that you get you would only be able to use it for metal 16:43 < AchiestDragon> otherwise you block up and contaminate the coolant oil 16:46 < AchiestDragon> anyway ,, the one i am building atm will manage pcbs plastics and wood , should be able to do drilling on aluminium sheet 16:49 < AchiestDragon> its made from 3" by 2" 1/8"thick aluminium angle ,,, theres a outer frame assembly and covering to make yet , that will brace the machine tight so it does not flex 16:49 < AchiestDragon> but its not far off strong enough as it is 16:50 < AchiestDragon> just a shame i am having to build it as i go allong as that means theres no plans for it 16:51 < kanzure> there's enough of us in here to help with the plans 16:51 < kanzure> but the problem is that we don't have expensive CAD software, only things that support standard formats 16:51 < kanzure> (IGES and STEP are my favorites) 16:51 < AchiestDragon> i will take photos and give approx dimentions 16:53 < AchiestDragon> as to machining it out im just clamping parts together in the right place then drilling out mounting holes for them , bolt it in remove clamp and move to next bit 16:54 < AchiestDragon> just the way that works well ,, takes like 2 to 3 days to cad up a part only to have to go out and hand make it , could do eather but no point doing both 16:55 < kanzure> how did you determine the flex? 16:55 < kanzure> for the hextatic design? 16:56 < AchiestDragon> flex ,, any part of the design that may flex under pressure and the direction of that flex 16:57 < AchiestDragon> the cutting presure can be quite high 16:58 < AchiestDragon> also vibration , allong a lenth is going to resanate so will genearate a oscilating flex 16:59 < AchiestDragon> example of how it can affect a machine is think of a washing machine on spin dry , with an imballanced load in it ,, like it tries to bounce arround allong the floor 17:00 < AchiestDragon> well the frame structure of that machine would be resinating out of square because of that 17:01 < AchiestDragon> like a slightly bent cube 17:04 < AchiestDragon> the hextatic design well most of that is tube secton frame ,, although there could be a bit of twist in the frame thats not going to be the problem 17:05 < AchiestDragon> the problem with that desing is getting all the angles right on the joins of the frame 17:07 < AchiestDragon> as the acuracy is limited by the acuracy you get the 3 actuator mountings in relation to each other and the bed on all axis's .. 17:08 < AchiestDragon> 6 actuators not 3 17:08 < fenn> AchiestDragon: an octahedron is not a cube 17:08 < fenn> i'm sorry you're just wrong.. build a model out of straws or something 17:10 < AchiestDragon> straws and putty ,, yea i know ,, but get a aluminium block and manualy drill the holes for fitting the poles into it and i bet you cant manage more than 0.5degree acuracy 17:10 < fenn> i'm not totally certain on how to mount the joint brackets to the frame.. i'm sure there's some way to do it without bending 17:10 < fenn> i don't need 0.5 degree accuracy 17:10 < fenn> the whole structure will flex to the right angle 17:11 < fenn> anyway we are just talking past each other 17:13 < AchiestDragon> the distance between the mounting points for the actuators and the head , is verable ok get one actuator mounted 1mill out of allign and that actuator path is out by the same amount so that affects the position and angle of the cutting head by the same amount 17:14 < AchiestDragon> its the lenth determins the relative angle also so if its out on eather it will affect the machines acuracy 17:15 < AchiestDragon> you cant weld it manualy eather as it would warp the frame , you could cnc weld it if you made a special jig to do it ,,, the way they do make them 17:15 -!- wrldpc2_ [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:16 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:16 < AchiestDragon> the other way is to make a frame then post machine it out the mounting surfaces so they are all in line 17:19 < AchiestDragon> but your not going to reproduce the joins needed to make that frame without eather cnc machined joins for the poles or cnc welded , or post machining it 17:21 < AchiestDragon> well its not an easy shape to try to weld , hand driling is out , manual adjuster plates for the mounting points may work but those actuators are £250 each 17:22 < kanzure> this looks like what smari was going for: 17:22 < kanzure> http://code.gustavonarea.net/booleano/ 17:22 < kanzure> "python" in title and category == "computing" and (rating > 3 or publication_date:year => 2007) and (not software or software:works_on_linux) 17:22 < AchiestDragon> at that price its worth the extra to get a frame made to do it justice 17:24 < AchiestDragon> should of said £250 for the 10" actuators 17:24 < fenn> i don't know what you're talking about 17:24 < fenn> acme threaded rod is $10/6ft 17:25 < ybit> kanzure: at leasst your family members use the computer for something somewhat useful, i leave the house with my uncle for 40 mins and i come back to see 'porn-o-rama' on my computer 17:26 < kanzure> is it good porn? 17:26 < ybit> i dunno, i was too concerned about nasty bacteria and whatever else was left behind on my seat, keyboard, and mouse 17:27 < kanzure> the obvious solution is to use a proxy to filter all images and replace them with goatse 17:27 < ybit> i think there was a donkey and a panda involved, though ;) 17:27 < AchiestDragon> fenn threaded rod is the wrong thread pitch and profile to use as a good leadscrew 17:28 < fenn> oh i guess i should stop using it as a leadscrew then 17:28 < AchiestDragon> yea cheap and sort of works , but the pitch is too fine and its profile gives too much friction 17:29 < fenn> btw i explicitly said "acme" 17:29 < AchiestDragon> sattelite jacks have the right sort of profile to the threads but theres no antibacklash 17:30 < AchiestDragon> the commertial actuators they make that are like satelite jacks like shown on that pic are about £250 like 10X the cost of the satelitte jacks 17:31 < AchiestDragon> a proper machined lead screw 10" long is going to cost about £70 to get machined for you ( there usualy made to order) although they do make standard lenths there still about the same price 17:32 < AchiestDragon> if you get the leadscrew then you would still need to make that into an actuartor for that design 17:34 < AchiestDragon> now i just stipped down 3 sattelite jacks for the leadscrews , but i can mod the nuts to make them antibacklash but unfortnatly you have to cut up the jack to do it , so no way to retrofit antibacklash to the jacks 17:34 < AchiestDragon> if you could then would be a cheap way of doing that 17:34 < AchiestDragon> but as its not posbile to mod them it rules them out 17:35 < kanzure> i wonder if there's a way to traverse the parse tree in booleano 17:36 < AchiestDragon> as to machining rapidly your stuck to the maximum cutting rate of the spindle motor , with a dremil then you may manage milling a 1mm cubic aria per second from aluminum 17:38 < AchiestDragon> where as with a 1hp motor you could take 10mm cube per second of a lump of mild steel ,, but that puts the whole machine under the same 1hp worth of stress on each part of the frame while doing it 17:40 < AchiestDragon> about the same as trying to bend it by using 2 cars as a vice and drving them together to crush it 17:41 < AchiestDragon> assuming they both start from where there tuching 17:42 < AchiestDragon> something will give ,, when you get that right it would be a 20mm dia milling cutter that should break first 17:44 < AchiestDragon> other than the actual construction of that frame theres only one draw back of that design 17:45 < AchiestDragon> space the ammount of size that frame takes in relation to the amount of workspace it offers is quite high 17:46 < kanzure> http://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ 17:47 < kanzure> piny is joe rayhawk's ikiwiki+git hoster software 17:47 -!- genehacker [n=noko@wireless-128-62-59-229.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:48 < fenn> "CGI frontend to adduser" sounds like a bad idea 17:49 < fenn> i wonder if he's actually tried using ikiwiki 17:50 < kanzure> heh 17:50 < kanzure> he's kind of a masochist sysadmin 18:20 < AchiestDragon> fenn the http://fennetic.com/gingery_machines/index.php?hextatic type machine in order for it to be useful for machinining steel the supporting bars would need to be 2" dia stainelss steel poles like on a pillar drill , and it would need blocks macining to join the ends of the tubes they would have to be from mild steel , the actuators would need to have the power of mini digger style hydrolic rams 18:22 < AchiestDragon> should then have the strenth to take a spindle capable of milling out a 1" wide 1/8" deep cut from a mild steel block 18:22 < AchiestDragon> so about 2 to 3 hp spindle motor 18:23 < AchiestDragon> unfortunatly you would need a 5 axis machine to make the blocks for the frame to start with 18:24 < AchiestDragon> anything smaller and the macine would bend rather than cut the metal 18:24 < AchiestDragon> well bend or self distruct 18:24 < fenn> you are totally missing the point 18:25 < AchiestDragon> and the point 18:25 < fenn> first of all you don't use a 1" endmill 18:25 < fenn> second, the struts don't bend because all the forces go along the axis of the strut 18:26 < fenn> and third you don't need precision 5 axis machined blocks 18:27 < AchiestDragon> you would do if you wanted to rough cut the surface down say to make a lip 5mm high all the way arround the edge of a frontpannel ,, like having to go 5mm deep over an aria of about 18" by 5" 18:27 < genehacker> define strut 18:27 < genehacker> what does object strut refer to in this case 18:27 < fenn> a round beam that can change its length 18:27 < AchiestDragon> the supporting bars of the framework 18:27 < AchiestDragon> the bit that adjusts is the actuator 18:28 < genehacker> the hydraulic cylinders could be susceptible to buckling 18:28 < AchiestDragon> there electric linear actuators 18:28 < genehacker> yeah I know 18:29 < fenn> yes buckling is an issue.. that's why the struts are only 18 inches 18:30 < genehacker> anyway triangle top supports should only be in tension 18:30 < genehacker> I am assuming you are making this out of steel? 18:30 < genehacker> perhaps you should use steel with a high carbon content 18:31 < genehacker> oh wait that doesn't affect the modulus 18:31 < AchiestDragon> in tention in one plain but its also taking a rotational stress down the axis of the spindle that will try to twist the whole machine 18:31 < genehacker> ok then dike out the spindle and replace it with a laser beam 18:32 < genehacker> BAM no more rotational torque 18:32 < AchiestDragon> if the frame is too light it would felx ,, the spindle motor would start to vibrate and within a short space of time the whole frame is resonating 18:33 < genehacker> fortunately you can use the dual cylinders to apply a counter torque 18:33 < genehacker> perhaps one could use active damping 18:33 < AchiestDragon> if the spindle power is 500W then you would be looking at 20mm dia stainless bar at min for those frame rails 18:33 < ybit> ITK_LIBRARY set as well? 18:33 < ybit> fenn, kanzure 18:34 < ybit> & ITCL_LIBRARY 18:34 < genehacker> fenn do you have cad files of that hexapod? 18:34 < AchiestDragon> yea laser , plasma cutter , water jet or sand or even spray gun ideal but machining steel with a cutter puts the machine under a lot of stress 18:35 < genehacker> perhaps you could take advantage of the vibration damping properties of (FILE ERROR) cast iron 18:35 < AchiestDragon> regardless of type of machine ,, like taking a hammer and chissle ,, how much force do you need to give it to chissle your name on the side of a block of steel 18:36 < ybit> genehacker: what'd i miss, which hexapod? 18:37 < genehacker> achiestdragon is arguing over this hexapod which I think fenn is working on 18:37 < genehacker> http://fennetic.com/gingery_machines/index.php?hextatic 18:37 < genehacker> oh I know 18:37 < genehacker> use ECM 18:37 < genehacker> electrochemical machining 18:37 < AchiestDragon> but my goal is to be able to rapidly mill aluminum and do light milling on steel. <<<< that is the task is it not 18:38 * ybit hasn't read over the convo, maybe tomorrow since i have a day off then, (yay) 18:38 < genehacker> it's crazy accurate and can cut superalloys 18:38 < ybit> that's neat 18:38 < genehacker> if you apply MORE POWER you might be able to cut stuff rapidly 18:38 < AchiestDragon> rappid milling 1" at 1/4" deep per second , is like 1/4" cube every 1/4 second 18:39 < genehacker> fenn do you have cad files? 18:40 < AchiestDragon> more power more stress , if you think the standard router design often used is only just capable of machining aluminium with some success and the requirements for steel are about 10 times the strenth 18:40 < AchiestDragon> and need a lot higher spindle horsepower to manage it also 18:40 < genehacker> so how'd we get on this topic anyway? 18:41 < AchiestDragon> then a 500w router would requre the frame to be able to take the full load power of that as if jammed and not flex more than 1 thou 18:43 < genehacker> anyway why not just make something capable of doing automatic investment casting? 18:43 < AchiestDragon> for that on that framework you would need about 1" dia bar for the frame ,,, but a 500W router is only going to give you a 1/8" cube per seccond cut rate at most from steel 18:44 < genehacker> did you calculate that out? 18:44 < genehacker> perhaps one could use a material with a higher modulus 18:45 < AchiestDragon> it may take a 20 ton to bend a 4" dia 1/4" thick bar , but get a 18" lenth of it and tap it at the end it will ring like a bell , and be vibrating more than a couple of mil each way in at the ends in the process 18:45 < drazak> katsmeow-afk: that seattle robotics place is a good find, they know shittones about electronics 18:46 < AchiestDragon> how are you joining the frame poles together fenn 18:58 < ybit> kanzure, fenn: where is Display.OCCViewer 18:58 < ybit> did it come in some package that i'm missing because apt-file and locate are clueless 19:16 -!- genehacker [n=noko@wireless-128-62-59-229.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19 < katsmeow-afk> AchiestDragon , if it jammed, i hope your driver electronics are smart enough to shut it down before it got there 19:20 < katsmeow-afk> which is why i wanted to use dc, it's easier to control closely 19:20 < fenn> frame poles squished at ends and held together with a single bolt at each vertex 19:21 < katsmeow-afk> frame poles = EMT ? 19:21 < fenn> something like that 19:22 < katsmeow-afk> it's pretty sturdy stuff, and you can beef it some by slipping a smaller size inside the outside one 19:22 < fenn> i dont think that would help 19:22 < fenn> i did have this idea bout using two pipes with viscoelastic shear fluid between 19:22 < katsmeow-afk> i mounted car ac compressors that way :-) 19:23 < katsmeow-afk> 30 yrs later, i now know the right way to do it, and can 19:23 < katsmeow-afk> i did the squashed emt to mount a golfcart motor in a VW beatle too 19:24 < katsmeow-afk> *that's* some torque 19:29 < ybit> damn, my pastebin is the first result when googling for Display.OCCViewer 19:29 < fenn> why not just use angle iron? 19:29 < katsmeow-afk> i didn't have it, nor a way to work with it, 30 yrs ago 19:29 < fenn> ybit: it should be in python.../site-packages/OCC/Display/ 19:29 < ybit> ah, found it 19:29 < ybit> fenn: yep 19:29 < katsmeow-afk> and i didn't wann aput more money into something i didn't have a clue would work or not: a VW electric ~1975 19:37 * ybit was shown to the backroom today. it was neat and depressing at the same time, because i won't be working on anything but one of those items, and it's the only one they gave me permission to even mention to anyone 19:38 < kanzure> http://code.gustavonarea.net/booleano/tutorials/evaluable-parsing.html 19:38 < ybit> we'll be working on a bionic arm here soon, and that makes me happy 19:38 < kanzure> i was going to do something with dependencies today with that 19:38 < fenn> you work at a place with secrets? 19:38 < kanzure> but now i'm not sure what 19:38 < ybit> fenn: yeah :\ 19:38 < fenn> did you sign an NDA? 19:38 < ybit> yeah 19:38 < fenn> wow 19:39 < fenn> welcome to the dark side ybit 19:39 * ybit no likey and yet, i do :P 19:39 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, you can't even complain when your nick isn't on the patent anywhere 19:40 < ybit> lots to learn, sad i can't talk about everything though 19:40 < kanzure> bullshit 19:40 < ybit> it's not super secret kanzure, just stuff like i mentioned above 19:41 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-169-215.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:41 < ybit> they're in the process of patenting the arm, that's why i'm not able to discuss that, the other stuff is military tech 19:45 < drazak> ok, you guys know how to make mathmatica things and stuff 19:45 * ybit doesn't use mathematica 19:45 < ybit> holy fuck, interactiveviewer worked 19:45 * katsmeow-afk also doesn't too 19:46 < drazak> or some sort of equation solver 19:46 < ybit> drazak: go with sage, save the gnus 19:47 < drazak> x=1/(ln(2)*a(b+2c) 19:47 < drazak> i betcha I could just plug in two of the values and get something nice 19:47 < ybit> drazak: i'm just messing with you, i only use my trust ti-82 ;) 19:47 < drazak> but I need to make two of the values so the third is sane 19:47 < ybit> trusty* 19:48 < katsmeow-afk> hell with bug spray, use spray mount adhesive 19:48 < kanzure> ybit: what was the fix? 19:48 < ybit> kanzure: that's what i'm trying to figure out 19:49 < ybit> kanzure: i think it was all of CSF_* stuff, in particular, CSF_GraphicShr 19:49 < kanzure> it would have complained about not having that variable set 19:49 < ybit> i hadn't done that, figured the occ packages would do it 19:49 < drazak> hm 19:50 < drazak> I could use a small value for a and everything else would be set 19:50 < ybit> it did complain about the tcl tck stuff, and it did work after setting that tcl_lib and tk_lib, it could have been any one of those sys env settings 19:51 * ybit was just about to specify where OCCViewer.py was, but didn't see the error, so i ran interactiverviewer.py once more to get the error, and it worked 19:52 < ybit> drazak: i'm not following, you ned to make two of the values so the third is sane? 19:53 < ybit> o i c 19:54 < drazak> ybit: yeah 19:55 < drazak> ybit: I could pick b and c and let a fall where it may for a given value of x 19:55 < drazak> b and c need to be inheriently small to get a large x 19:55 < drazak> and a is inheriently small anyway, cause of what it is 19:56 < drazak> a is a cap, the value for the equation is in farads, b and c are resistors in ohms 20:02 < drazak> well... I could use a trimpot 20:04 < drazak> but then I'd have to set the cap so that at near the minimum of the pot it goes to the highest frequency I need 20:05 < ybit> sorry drazak, was fixing the complaints from the lack of CSF_GraphicShr being set, after stating that i had specified it earlier :P 20:05 < ybit> http://bayimg.com/image/caemdaacc.jpg 20:05 < drazak> hmmm 20:06 < fenn> i just do CSF_GraphicShr='' to get it to shut up 20:06 < ybit> i did export CSF_GraphicShr=/usr/lib/libTKOpenGl.so 20:07 < ybit> drazak: i'm stumped, try #math? :-\ 20:08 < drazak> I'm not stumped 20:08 < drazak> :) 20:08 < ybit> orlly? 20:08 < drazak> nah 20:13 < fenn> drazak: is this a 555 circuit? 20:13 < drazak> fenn: AYE 20:13 < drazak> er, without capslock 20:14 < fenn> ok how precise/stable does it have to be? 20:14 < fenn> if not very you can use a tiny cap = tiny power dissipation 20:14 < fenn> like 1uF 20:15 < drazak> I'm using it as a squarewave function generator for testing headphone amps and testing an oscilloscope 20:15 < drazak> I was actually considering something like 100nf 20:15 < fenn> ok close enough 20:15 < drazak> needs to be fairly stable 20:15 < drazak> but not perfect 20:22 < fenn> btw most capacitors are like +-10% so if your frequency is important, best to use a trimpot 20:22 < drazak> yeah 20:22 < drazak> I know 20:22 < fenn> but if your scope is not calibrated i don't really know how to calibrate the 555 20:22 < kanzure> i wonder if booleano can deal with recursive expressions. i.e., parse_manager.parse("book:title is 'Introduction to Physics' and book:author is " + some_other_parse_tree) 20:22 < fenn> unless you have an LCR meter 20:22 < drazak> I could buy a 1% cap 20:23 < drazak> then it'd be fairly close 20:23 < fenn> how about outputting something from a computer 20:23 < drazak> computers are good a sinewaves 20:23 < drazak> not good at flat waves 20:23 < fenn> too much filtering on audio out? 20:23 < drazak> yeah 20:24 < drazak> it looks like a garbled mess out of all but the best soundcards 20:24 < fenn> anyway it will get you the right frequency so that you can calibrate other stuff 20:24 < drazak> maybe 20:24 < drazak> :D 20:24 < drazak> I could get it in range with a 1% cap 20:29 * ybit needs a smaller cad file, the hemi engine step file won't even display, grr. 20:29 < ybit> and just when i say that, it displays 20:34 < drazak> fenn: trimpots go 0-value right? 20:34 < fenn> some of them, but usually it's part of a switch and not a smooth transition 20:34 < drazak> that's ok 20:34 < drazak> what's the usual minimum value? 20:34 < fenn> usually it's open circuit though 20:35 < fenn> ybit: http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/lego_stepmodels.tgz 20:38 < ybit> http://ybit.ath.cx/images/iv2.jpg :: that's me trying to rotate the hemi 20:40 < ybit> ty you fenn 20:41 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-169-215.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41 < fenn> yw welcome ybit 20:42 < ybit> :P 20:42 < ybit> it works nicely with simple models, what a relief 20:44 < ybit> http://ybit.ath.cx/images/iv3.jpg 20:45 < ybit> the cpu usage spike is from scrot grabbing a screenshot 20:47 < kanzure> http://ybit.ath.cx/images/which_street_nashville.jpg 20:47 < kanzure> i think i'll go straight 20:48 < ybit> hehe 20:51 < ybit> that dir is about to increase significantly with sci-fi/futuristic drawings, downloaded quite a bit of those type of images yesterday when brainstorming over the layout on the propery 20:51 < fenn> ohboy 20:52 < fenn> you know maybe you should sort your images a bit 20:56 < flamoot> all eyes are on the aura of electronic intelligence that shines around the transcendental object at the end of time or, "Singularity" 20:56 < kanzure> what the fuck 20:57 < flamoot> all eyes on deck 20:57 < flamoot> let's look at it together 20:57 * flamoot gazes at the nascent AI's 20:58 < fenn> om mani padme hummmm 21:41 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/pie.py i wrote this thinking that it would be only a quick next step to do a proper Pie.build method but i was wrong :( 21:43 < ybit> anyone used http://www.hpfem.jku.at/netgen/ ? 21:43 < kanzure> yes 21:43 < ybit> supposedly good for grid generation 21:43 < kanzure> tetgen too 21:43 < kanzure> gmsh also doesn't suck 21:49 < ybit> so what visualization tool was decided on for skdb? 21:50 < ybit> was it this: http://www.shocksolution.com/microfluidics-and-biotechnology/python-vtk-paraview/ 21:53 < kanzure> no 21:53 < kanzure> run paths.py 21:55 < kanzure> ybit: you have time for a walkthrough? 21:55 < ybit> yeah sure 21:55 < kanzure> hm i seem to be having some local problems 21:55 < kanzure> ../../../libdrm/intel/intel_bufmgr_gem.c:721: Error preparing buffer map -1349728242 ((null)): Invalid argument . 21:55 < kanzure> python: vbo/vbo_save_api.c:216: map_vertex_store: Assertion `vertex_store->buffer' failed. 21:56 < kanzure> (i've been having some issues with my graphics card) 21:56 < kanzure> well anyway, just run paths.py in skdb 21:57 < ybit> right, i have a few problems of my own to fix 21:57 < ybit> env variables again 21:58 < kanzure> fenn: shape_volume has been deleted apparently? 21:58 < kanzure> (running some of the unit tests) 22:00 < ybit> ODD 22:00 < ybit> import skdb 22:00 < ybit> ImportError: No module named skdb 22:00 < ybit> *** glibc detected *** python: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x09d15ba8 *** 22:00 < ybit> ^C 22:00 < ybit> togetic:/home/heath/projects/skdb# echo $PYTHONPATH 22:00 < ybit> :/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/OCC:/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/:/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/OCC:/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/:/home/heath/projects/skdb/ 22:01 < kanzure> that last item in your path should be one directory up 22:02 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-144.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:02 < ybit> ah 22:06 < ybit> hehe, like the output from the cli 22:06 < ybit> why are we using something that's not even in debian (python-graph)? 22:06 < ybit> so what was that, it looked like a tube with a flag hanging it from it :P 22:08 < ybit> oh, an arrow, and it quit doing whatever it was doing because of an error 22:08 < ybit> maybe i should pastebin some of the relevant cli history? 22:20 < ybit> File "/home/heath/projects/skdb/core/interface.py", line 140, in connect 22:20 < ybit> assert self.interface1.part in cgraph.dict().values() 22:20 < ybit> AssertionError 22:21 < ybit> hmm 22:21 < ybit> what's the error is my Q 22:21 < ybit> i need more thatn just assertionerror 22:21 < ybit> /usr/lib/libcgraph.so.4 22:24 < kanzure> you probably don't have cgraph 22:25 < kanzure> also, it turns out pythonocc doesn't compile with swig-1.3.40 and only likes swig-1.3.36 22:26 < kanzure> that's a funky error anyway, what is cgraph doing in core/interface.py ? 22:27 < fenn> some open manufacturing project context stuffs: http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/crisis-at-the-factor-e-farm/2009/08/10 22:28 < fenn> i do wish there were other development sites besides Factor E Farm 22:28 < fenn> by "site" i mean physical location where stuff is happening 22:28 < fenn> are there others and I just don't know about it? N55 is probably one of the few others and that kinda puttered out after one of the people died 22:30 < ybit> the beginning of a log while getting paths.py working 22:30 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/f72635dbc 22:32 < ybit> afk, forming a corporation on 10/28, 10:28 :P 22:33 < genehacker> ybit what arm? robot arm? 22:33 < ybit> genehacker: prosthetics 22:33 < ybit> oh damn, it's 9/28, well that ruins everything 23:29 < genehacker> all I care about is if it hooks up to the nervous system 23:29 < genehacker> good luck 23:29 < genehacker> hope it works 23:43 < ybit> thanks, it should be a somewhat fun learning exp. 23:43 < kanzure> Sep 28 23:34:51 pikachu kernel: [ 5518.842406] python[10186]: segfault at 30 ip afed775d sp bf8b8f70 error 4 in i965_dri.so[afe9e000+268000] 23:47 < ybit> grr, kanzure, what was the name of the book you and i both mentioned yesterday? it was named ~"Nano__ & Micromanufacturing" 23:47 < ybit> can't find it in the logs