--- Day changed Wed Sep 30 2009
00:01 < ybit> http://books.google.com/books?id=MlQ7NK9dw7IC
00:02 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Science_timelines
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00:29 < kanzure> hm it seems most efficient if i don't sleep for the next five days
00:29 < kanzure> wrldpc2: so you're in new york, right?
00:29 < wrldpc2> yep
00:29 < kanzure> so
00:29 < wrldpc2> forward advance team go!
00:30 < wrldpc2> I couldn't get access.
00:30 < kanzure> what?
00:30 < kanzure> i was wondering if you could fill me in on some details
00:30 < kanzure> like why the fuck you people pay 20% gratuity on cabs
00:30 < wrldpc2> Vassar shut me down.
00:30 < wrldpc2> hahaha
00:31 < wrldpc2> I heard the trains in New York are Japanese.
00:31 < kanzure> i'm arriving at la guardia, i was wondering if you could give some protips
00:31 < wrldpc2> I tried getting press access.
00:31 < wrldpc2> I wouldn't be averse to driving you to the spot actually.
00:31 < kanzure> you have a car?
00:31 < wrldpc2> I won't be able to get in but you will.
00:31 < wrldpc2> lol
00:32 < wrldpc2> Yeah I have a car.
00:32 < kanzure> i'm going to be arriving around 1:30 pm
00:32 < kanzure> on friday
00:32 < wrldpc2> cool
00:32 < kanzure> can we make this work?
00:32 < wrldpc2> I can program that.
00:33 < wrldpc2> Certainly!
00:33 < kanzure> is your number still 6173356457
00:33 < wrldpc2> yep
00:33 < kanzure> huh you're already in my phone
00:34 < kanzure> well good job i guess
00:34 < wrldpc2> It's 16 minutes from 1395 Lexington Ave, NYC to La Guardia.
00:34 < wrldpc2> I'll be able to give you that book that came back return to sender lol
00:34 < kanzure> actually i'm staying at 410 east 92nd street
00:35 < kanzure> it's basically around the block iirc
00:35 < kanzure> but if you want to hang out a bit that's cool too
00:36 < wrldpc2> That's 3 blocks from the venue.
00:36 < wrldpc2> East
00:36 < wrldpc2> well .. south east
00:36 < kanzure> are new york blocks proportional to regular city blocks like i might find in austin?
00:36 < wrldpc2> I'm down to hang out for sure.
00:36 < kanzure> i have to warn you that my hotelmate is mormon
00:37 < wrldpc2> Depends
00:37 < wrldpc2> 2 standard Austin blocks generally equal 1 NYC block
00:37 < kanzure> hah
00:37 < wrldpc2> but it depends where you go
00:37 < kanzure> sounds like it's ok to walk then
00:38 < kanzure> alright, i need to get some sleep
00:38 < kanzure> thanks for this
00:38 < kanzure> and i'm getting a book? how can i resist
00:38 < wrldpc2> I dunno I think that's just hyperbole about the blocks.
00:38 < wrldpc2> Oh for sure!
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09:50 < genehacker> fun fact: electron beam welding can weld 14 inch thick pieces of steel
09:51 < genehacker> fun fact: a lot of aerospace equipment is electron beam welded
09:51 < genehacker> fun fact: electron beam welding works in a vacuum
09:51 < genehacker> fun fact: space is a vacuum
10:16 < kanzure> http://www.presentationzen.com/
10:16 < kanzure> hrm
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10:17 < jonathan__> check out the homebrew tech - http://benkrasnow.blogspot.com/2009/07/experimenting-with-liquid-lens.html
10:18 < genehacker> heh learned most of that stuff from the toyota guy
10:19 < genehacker> whoa diy liquid lense
10:22 < jonathan__> well not really, he bought a camera with liquid lens and stole the lens out of it
10:23 < genehacker> it would be really cool if one could use liquid lenses to make either a microscope or a photolithography setup
10:23 < genehacker> because of the low tolerances invovled
10:26 < jonathan__> sure, it should be possible.
10:28 < genehacker> though it'd be better to use something other than water
10:31 < genehacker> like something with a higher refractive index
10:32 < genehacker> http://www.cargille.com/opticalintro.shtml
10:32 < genehacker> ugh
10:32 < genehacker> doesn't say what they are
10:36 < genehacker> but that GH stuff has the refractive index of about diamond
10:42 < jonathan__> use multiple lenses, I guess
10:50 < genehacker> well yeah
10:53 < jonathan__> I dont know anything about optics.
10:53 < jonathan__> except the basic physics 101 stuff.
10:54 < genehacker> higher refractive index is good
10:55 < genehacker> that cargille GH optical fluid has a refractive index on the order of diamond
10:55 < genehacker> if we could make fluid lenses from it
10:56 < genehacker> it would do the job
10:57 < kanzure> "I'll soon be goo-gardening collablobject-oriented co-op computronium commonage corpus clusterings of mass-mod-mood-meds as related to GraviTV programming of everware-there-is-mass, requiring mad quality quomputronium quodin squillz and Compile-A-Child source code pharmed by way of repeatedly rebooting fungible front-ends of infomorphs exprisoned within deathcubes."
10:57 < kanzure> uhm
10:59 < jonathan__> I dont know what liquids have been tried inside the liquid lens.  I know they use 2 very immixable liquids (oil, water).  look for papers like this one: http://jjap.ipap.jp/link?JJAP/48/052404/
11:00 < jonathan__> the only real issue in fabrication is the teflon-on-conductor-on-glass part.
11:00 < kanzure> most of the liquid lens papers that i read use some sort of ultrasound source to cause changes to the shape
11:01 < jonathan__> these are EWOD liquid lenses
11:01 < genehacker> can't read that
11:02 < genehacker> anyway could these be useful to us?
11:02 < jonathan__> well, it's one exampe only.  there was a good paper in 2006 in applied physics journal or something.
11:02 < jonathan__> aiming LAzERZ!1!
11:03 < genehacker> electron beams are better
11:03 < jonathan__> it seems lasers are used to slectively kill cells.   so presumably if you had a colony, you could select the ones you want & kill the outliers, as a selection mechanism.
11:04 < genehacker> they can weld 14 inch pieces of steel and don't produce large heat affected zones
11:04 < genehacker> would liquid lenses alloy us to do that?
11:06 < jonathan__> the blog post mentioned he was trying to eliminate vibration sources from measurement.
11:06 < jonathan__> thats why he wanted one
11:06 < jonathan__> the other reasonmight be size.  such as, embedding the lens into microfluidics
11:07 -!- nykodemus is now known as nykodickie
11:07 < jonathan__> that might be interesting since a problem with microfluidics is capping them in such a way that eliminates evaporation yet provides a good window
11:08 < genehacker> you can get vibration isolators for record players
11:08 < genehacker> http://www.finishing.com/456/54.shtml
11:08 < genehacker> as far as coating teflon with metal is concerned
11:09 < jonathan__> teflon coats the glass
11:09 < jonathan__> at <100nm thick
11:09 < genehacker> hmm....
11:11 < kanzure> wtf? http://www.y-pod.us/
11:11 < kanzure> claims that it's as important as xerox's gui
11:11 < kanzure> so nevermind it's probably bullshit
11:12 < jonathan__> just like lincoln logs!
11:12  * kanzure is browsing through the singularity summit's attendee directory
11:12 < kanzure> there's only 500 people registered but they claim over 1k will be in attendance
11:12 < kanzure> i like how igem and the singularity summit are at the same time, 
11:12 < kanzure> it weeds all the igem people out
11:14 < jonathan__> uhhh
11:14 < genehacker> dang  I can't think of a use for the that ypod thing
11:14 < jonathan__> the singulatiry summit should only have 1 in attendance ??
11:14 < kanzure> jonathan__: what?
11:15 < jonathan__> How can it be a singularity summit if there is more than 1 person there
11:17 < kanzure> obviously they plan to kill us all until there is only one
11:22 < genehacker> http://www.y-pod.us/graphics/boat_tail.gif
11:55 < kanzure> http://audivolv.com/
11:55 < kanzure> sigh
11:56 < kanzure> haha he links to mindforth
11:56 < kanzure> crazy
12:00 < genehacker> wow that looks a lot like a timecube crazy webpage
12:02 < kanzure> hey why don't i have a timecube website yet?
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12:56 < kanzure> wtf you can't search gmail inboxes by date?
13:06 < kanzure> bkero: do you have a copy of "Hacking, Biohacking, and the Future of Humanity" from defcon?
13:07 < bkero> kanzure: If it's from this/last year's defcon CD, yse.
13:07 < bkero> Yes
13:07 < kanzure> hm this might be it: https://issa-chicago.org/2009/07/august-meeeting/
13:07 < kanzure> oh it's just an abstract
13:08 < kanzure> bkero: richard talked with me just before he gave the presentation so i was thinking i'd see what he got wrong or misunderstood from me
13:08 < bkero> Really?  Haha
13:09 < kanzure> can't seem to find a copy of the talk
13:12 < bkero> kanzure: http://docs.frogwasp.com/defcon/
13:12 < kanzure> hm these aren't transcripts?
13:12 < bkero> That's a mounted ISO of the CD that was distributed at the conference
13:13 < kanzure> looks like it's not there
13:13 < kanzure> and there's nothing on the web from anyone who attended it
13:13 < kanzure> what a boring talk it must have been
13:13 < bkero> People at defcon are...very interesting
13:14 < kanzure> hm?
13:14 < bkero> I haven't been able to pidgeonhole them as something yet.
13:14 < bkero> Are the mostly idiots, security professionals, paranoid schizophrenics?
13:16 < kanzure> the first few defcons were probably rock solid
13:28 < bkero> Yea
13:29 < bkero> But defcon is the conference every little boy dreams of going to
13:29 < bkero> OMG HACKRES
13:30 < kanzure> that's only because it's been around for a very long time
13:30 < kanzure> http://frogwasp.com/~bkero/
13:30 < kanzure> what a boring website
13:33 < bkero> kanzure: http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/ or http://blueheaven.ws/
13:33 < bkero> or http://docs.frogwasp.com/notes
13:33 < kanzure> much better
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13:44 < kanzure> hello nykodemus 
13:45 < nykodemus> hello
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14:36 < kanzure> ha
14:36 < kanzure> ed boyden uses an "MIT human 2.0" logo for his lab website. "h2o"
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16:53 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r a17adbf /tests/test_parser.py: unit tests for parsing dependency requirements of a package
16:55 < katsmeow-afk> how is a computer that was "worth" $1600 six years ago now "worth" $50 ?
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17:00 < boogles> katsmeow-afk: Because now there are much faster computers available for $1600 than there were 5 years ago?
17:00 < bkero> Because they got ripped off 6 years ago.
17:01 < bkero> I made a computer four years ago for $800, and sold it for $400 a few months ago.
17:01 < katsmeow-afk> they are P4 "hyperthreading" 2.8 and 3ghz , 400mhz ddr
17:01 < katsmeow-afk> pc3200
17:01 < bkero> Heh
17:01 < bkero> We still have those as our workstations at work
17:01 < kanzure> my laptop from 2003 was better than that
17:02 < kanzure> noisy though
17:02 < katsmeow-afk> so you buy another $1600 puter now, that's somewhat faster, and sell it in 4 yrs for $50 and buy another $1600 ?
17:02 < bkero> I think the solution is to buy a cheaper computer
17:02 < kanzure> i had people ask me to turn off my laptop because it was so loud :(
17:02 < bkero> Also the P4's of that era were shit
17:02 < katsmeow-afk> oh, i am, $50 ;-)
17:03 < katsmeow-afk> err, in what way?
17:03 < kanzure> "bryan i cant hear what these other people are saying, could you uhh"
17:03 < bkero> Netburst
17:03 < katsmeow-afk> ?
17:03 < bkero> They were badly designed.
17:03 < bkero> They couldn't be very fast because they pumped out too much heat
17:03 < bkero> and intel still charged a premium because it came with an Intel badge
17:04 < bkero> That era is what gave AMD a great foothold in the server market.
17:04 < katsmeow-afk> but the Athlon 3000 of that erea were slower on benchmarks
17:04 < bkero> Not many
17:04 < bkero> The 3000 moniker means it's supposed to compete with a 3GHz Pentium 4
17:05  * katsmeow-afk nods
17:05 < katsmeow-afk> which it seemd to fail at
17:05 < bkero> Or rather, supposed to be equivalent to a Pentium 4 with a lower price point
17:05 < kanzure> is that how AMD processors are named?
17:05 < bkero> It's how they were named
17:05 < katsmeow-afk> these 4600's come with only 512megs of ram, i think that may be why they are slow? they have no memory for applications to use?
17:05 < bkero> That worked when they introduced it, back during the Athlon XP days
17:06 < bkero> Athlon 4600s?  Those should be around 2.4Ghz Athlon 64's, should be plenty fast if you give them another gig of RAM.
17:06 < kanzure> hm i don't think i've owned an AMD since the K6
17:06 < katsmeow-afk> bkero, not, Dell Dimensions 4600
17:07 < bkero> Oh, I have no idea how dell model numbers work
17:07 < katsmeow-afk> someone wants this one reall ybadly, they been selling for $40, this one is $72
17:07 < bkero> AMDs were great value back in that era, and still great performers until the Core 2 came out.  Since then, AMD has always been a generation behind.
17:07 < katsmeow-afk> 82
17:08 < katsmeow-afk> $90 , 2 min left
17:08 < boogles> They're still nice and afforbable, though :)
17:09 < bkero> http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2004/benchmarks,18.html <-- There are some nice charts of the Athlon 64's cleaning up
17:09 < katsmeow-afk> sure, if i required one, $90 is worth it
17:09 < bkero> For $90 I could probably get a dual core atom board, case, and RAM
17:09 < katsmeow-afk> bkero, would the Athlons perform better with ubuntu than winxp ?
17:09 < bkero> As well as everything performs better with ubuntu than xp
17:10 < katsmeow-afk> but that atom will be 1.2ghx for that $90,, and not much ram
17:10 < bkero> The atoms are 1.6GHz, but clockspeed on atoms are misleading
17:10 < kanzure> i wonder if we can convert their "lab scripts" to something more usable http://2009.igem.org/Team:Calgary/Second_Life/Blog
17:10 < bkero> And RAM is really cheap
17:10 < katsmeow-afk> jeexe, this one sold for $104, ~3x what they have been going for
17:11 < katsmeow-afk> $35/gig cheap
17:11 < bkero> WAYY cheaper than that
17:11 < bkero> $15/gig cheap
17:11 < katsmeow-afk> for PC3200 ? where??
17:11 < bkero> $30 for a 2gb stick
17:11 < bkero> Oh, I thought we were talking about Atoms
17:11 < bkero> Which use DDr2
17:11 < katsmeow-afk> right
17:12 < bkero> Also on newegg
17:12 < bkero> PC3200 is $27
17:13 < katsmeow-afk> erg
17:14 < bkero> DDR1 is starting to get to the piont where it's not worth it to upgrade anymore
17:14 < bkero> I had the best DDR1 setup out there, and I sold it a few months ago
17:15 < katsmeow-afk> 2 x 1gb is $79 on newegg, ibeen buying for ~15 less
17:16 < katsmeow-afk> for Corsair brand
17:16 < katsmeow-afk> and Kingston
17:16 < bkero> Or 2x1gb is $54 by just buying 2 sticks
17:16 < katsmeow-afk> i don't know these other brands
17:17 < bkero> Wintec and G.skill have made a reputation with the DDR/DDR2 markets
17:17 < bkero> 5 eggs and 205/544 reviews respectively
17:17  * katsmeow-afk nods
17:18 < bkero> I'd trust Wintec, G.skill, and A-DATA to make a decent stick of RAM or flash memory nowadays
17:18 < katsmeow-afk> wish you'd told me about 6gb ago
17:19 < bkero> Is it you buying RAM, or your department?
17:19 < katsmeow-afk> me
17:19 < bkero> Oh damn, sorry
17:19 < bkero> I try to look in here as much as possible :0
17:19 < bkero> :)
17:21 < katsmeow-afk> course, then i bought 10gb for $50 for playing with
17:21 < katsmeow-afk> most of it was PC2100, 256meg dimms, for playing with making a digital storage scope, and other toys
17:23 < bkero> Vrmm vrmm
17:23 < bkero> RAM speed doesn't matter much at all
17:24 < bkero> 10GB is a lot of RAM though
17:24 < katsmeow-afk> a 3D bit map of fixed objects for the other toys to not run into :-)
17:24 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, a lifetime supply of 32meg x8 chips
17:25 < katsmeow-afk> to go with the 1,200 same-physical-size 128k and 256k 70ns drams i got for free
17:25 < katsmeow-afk> or the 120 128kx8 15ns statics i got for free
17:26 < katsmeow-afk> so other than upgrading a mobo or two here or there, i think i am out of the memory market for a loooooooong time
17:26 < bkero> Going to upgrade some arduinos?  Heh heh
17:26 < katsmeow-afk> heh ;-)
17:28  * bkero should order a nice (cheap) arduino clone.
17:28 < bkero> I'm not sure if I should go with a breadboard-able one or not.
17:28 < katsmeow-afk> why an arduino and not a plain AVR with some sorta OS?
17:30 < bkero> Nice C frontend
17:30 < bkero> *Compiler
17:30 < katsmeow-afk> i figure someone is gonna make the xmega competitive with the olde 386 any day now
17:30 < bkero> A serial interface that I don't have to fucking TTL to
17:30 < katsmeow-afk> there's C compilers for all the avr, i thought
17:30 < katsmeow-afk> you can run avr at 3.3v
17:31 < bkero> 5v?
17:32 < katsmeow-afk> if you mean ttl is 5v, and you don';t like 5v, run the chip at 3.3, many of the avr run lower than that even
17:32 < bkero> I meant RS232 ports look for signals much higher than 3.3v
17:32 < katsmeow-afk> oh,, yeas
17:32 < bkero> So I need the 5v :)
17:33 < katsmeow-afk> or the max chip
17:33 < katsmeow-afk> or a couple transistors
17:33 < katsmeow-afk> i gotta go afk to put my feet up 
17:33 < katsmeow-afk> bbl
17:34 < katsmeow-afk> thanks, bkero
17:34 < bkero> No problem, I'm always available if you need anything :)
17:36  * drazak is setting up pcr, again
17:41 < kanzure> slave labor just isn't fun when your slaves want to do it :/
17:42 < drazak> rofl
17:42 < bkero> You have minions?
17:42 < drazak> I am a minion
17:43 < drazak> but I think it's fun
17:43 < drazak> :D
17:43 < kanzure> it is i who has minions
17:43 < kanzure> or do the minions have me? not really sure
17:43 < drazak> you guys need to get more confused
17:43 < drazak> read the principa discordia
17:43 < bkero> Read it
17:43  * drazak can't finish his pcr reactions until the cDNA finishes
17:44 < drazak> bkero: what'
17:44 < drazak> what'd you think?
17:44 < bkero> Not bad
17:44 < bkero> I still don't get the entire allure of the Bob Dobbs/Discordianism shit
17:44 < drazak> heh
17:44 < kanzure> i need to implement something in my grammar where i can do {something:property=whatever same_something:property2=another} (i think most people think of this as a join)
17:44 < kanzure> re: test_parser.py
17:50 -!- jonathan_ [n=jonathan@66-90-154-118.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:51 < jonathan_> yesterday I got 13 mosquito bites from sitting out by the pool.  Today I got at least that many.  DNA transfer occurs thru mosquito bites so I am wondering how much genetic material I am picking up from TX mosquitos...
17:51 < bkero> Making a big monoprice order
17:51 < bkero> and by big I mean $6
17:52 < drazak> on what?
17:52 < drazak> jonathan_: not a lot
17:52 < bkero> Stereo shit
17:52 < drazak> jonathan_: think nano or pico grams
17:52 < drazak> bkero: what kind?
17:52 < jonathan_> hm
17:52 < bkero> 3.5mm->RCA, some RCA couplers, HDMI->DVI
17:53 < drazak> nice
17:53 < jonathan_> i'm wondering if it will affect my horrible TX allergies
17:53 < bkero> jonathan_: I've heard a nice way to fix some allergies is to eat local honey.  Takes a while to have any affect, but your body should get used to the pollens.
17:54 < jonathan_> I have heard that too, although it didnt work for me in california when I tried it.  got local honey from farmers market
17:54 < bkero> How long did you give it, and how often?
17:54 < jonathan_> long time ago, I dont remember
17:55 < drazak> are any of you into ceramics?
17:55 < jonathan_> these TX mosquitos are damn aggressive though
17:56 < jonathan_> i gotta get some DEET next time
17:56 < jonathan_> which causes more damage from a SENS point of view, massive qtys of DEET applied to skin, or massive numbers of mosquito bites?
17:57 -!- drazak is now known as draz|lab
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18:09 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:11 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-58-152.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:14 < bkero> lol I just pulled up the Chewbacca defense at work
18:14 -!- jonathan_ [n=jonathan@66-90-167-249.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:32 < ybit> bkero: eh?
18:32 < ybit> kanzure: why are you going to the singularity summit?
18:32 < ybit> draz|lab: what are you wanting to know about ceramics?
18:35 -!- draz|lab is now known as drazak
18:35 < genehacker> ceramics?
18:35 < genehacker> I know a bit about that
18:35 < drazak> ybit: tips for centering the clay on the wheel
18:36 < genehacker> what are you making?
18:36 < drazak> mugs, pots, bowls, teapots, etc, but I'm learning
18:36 < drazak> I've only thrown 4 times, been successful twice, but I cut it in half both times, to see how even it was
18:36 < genehacker> slip casting is the way to go
18:37 < drazak> no thanks
18:38 < drazak> I want to learn how to throw it on a potters wheel
18:38 < jonathan_> oh great, I'm gonna get yellow fever.  "Dengue vector abundance was monitored from 54 sites in Dallas County, Texas, from June to November 2006, using oviposition traps. Both dengue vectors--the yellow fever mosquito, Aedes aegypti, and the Asian tiger mosquito, Aedes albopictus--were present."
18:39 < genehacker> guess we need to make some sort of rapid disease detector
18:39 < drazak> uh huhhh
18:39 < drazak> bkero: oh god
18:39 < drazak> bkero: about what?
18:39 < genehacker> how about a serpentine PCR chip
18:40 < drazak> uh huh
18:47 < genehacker> perhaps youshould try jiggering
18:47 < drazak> what's that?
18:49 -!- strages [n=strages@c-68-62-216-5.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit []
18:58 < kanzure> ybit: it's sort of a highlander thing
18:58 < kanzure> or jedi thing
19:00 < ybit> go on
19:00 < kanzure> it has been written that "there can only be one"
19:01 < ybit> damn you principia discordian followers and your confusion
19:02 < ybit> kanzure: are you giving a talk or just going to listen because you can and you got a discounted ticket for working with these guys ~1.3 years ago?
19:03 < kanzure> "MacLeod eventually becomes a blacksmith in Glencoe, where he marries Heather (Beatie Edney). In 1541, he is located by a much older Immortal, who introduces himself as Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez (Sean Connery)."
19:03 < kanzure> "He explains that the pain he feels in the Kurgan's and Ramírez's presence is "The Quickening," which compels Immortals to battle each other. Ramírez appoints himself MacLeod's tutor in the ways of being Immortal, their pursuit of The Prize, and the rules of an age-old "Game,""
19:03 < kanzure> "2~which will end when the few who remain participate in "The Gathering," noting that "in the end, there can be only one." Immortals can only die by decapitation and can only avoid battle on holy ground."
19:05 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-58-152.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:14 < wrldpc2> Finite game :\
19:19 < kanzure> fenn: how would you specify material requirements?
19:19 < kanzure> i'm thinking of something like this: "(package1 or package2) and (package3 or package4 or package5) and gold{mass:" or something
19:20 < kanzure> (for some reason dependencies related to materials was originally put into the tree of requirements for making a screw, for instance)
19:20 < kanzure> "Xorg: At Least We're Not XFree86"
19:21 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.48.127] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:23 < drazak> rofl
19:23 < drazak> xorg sucks
19:56 < drazak> kanzure: how far are you from rice universtiy
19:57 -!- Noahj [n=noah@ip98-182-59-157.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:00 < drazak> austin
20:00 < drazak> 3 hours eh
20:01 < kanzure> hello noah
20:01 < kanzure> how was your first day?
20:01 < kanzure> materials ? 400 < thermalcapacity < 600 & meltingpoint > 400
20:01 < kanzure> objects ? type ~ "lamp" & width < 20 & height < 200
20:01 < kanzure> drazak: i visited rice once. they have some pretty small dorm rooms.
20:02 < drazak> yeah, they have decent research though
20:02 < drazak> and they waived my admission fee
20:02 < drazak> because I had a 5 on the chem ap
20:05 < kanzure> Noahj: you alive?
20:07 < Noahj> Hi
20:07 < Noahj> First day was pretty fun 
20:07 < kanzure> who is teaching it?
20:08 < Noahj> Adrian, the reprap guy, told us about border representation and function representation 
20:08 < kanzure> adrian bowyers is teaching the class
20:08 < kanzure> what the fuck
20:08 < kanzure> lfal;fa;kjlfal;jfal;fa
20:08 < kanzure> what do you mean "function representation"? 
20:08 < kanzure> and "border"?
20:10 < Noahj> In border representation you just store the edges and the vertices and that sort of thing
20:10 < kanzure> ah, this is for CAD?
20:10 < Noahj> In function representation, you define a function that generates the object 
20:10 < kanzure> are you sure he didn't mean a mesh?
20:10 < Noahj> Using integrals inside boxes 
20:10 < kanzure> like a bezier curve or bspline?
20:10 < kanzure> hm
20:10 < Noahj> Border representation utilizes meshes a lot
20:11 < drazak> I could go to rice
20:11 < Noahj> Most CAD stuff uses it
20:11 < kanzure> drazak: they have a good chemical engineering program that i was looking at
20:11 < genehacker> wait a second
20:11 < kanzure> Noahj: "function representation" is more popular
20:11 < drazak> kanzure: we should set up our hackerspace in between austin and houston
20:11 < drazak> :D
20:11 < genehacker> Adrian Bowyer is teaching a what class?
20:11 < kanzure> and travel 1.5 hours ? bah
20:12 < Noahj> Function representation is more popular?
20:12 < Noahj> Hmm
20:12 < Noahj> Adrian said it wasn't
20:12 < kanzure> adrian is biased
20:12 < genehacker> there's one there
20:12 < genehacker> they do repraps
20:12 < kanzure> he works with a reprap
20:12 < Noahj> But maybe he only meant for a certain set of programs 
20:12 < Noahj> Like, commercial CAD
20:12 < kanzure> well you see the reprap and other 3D goo squirters like to use STL and other mesh formats
20:12 < Noahj> He hates STL
20:12 < kanzure> wtf
20:12 < kanzure> that's news to me
20:12  * kanzure also hates STL
20:13 < Noahj> He was pretty adamant about his hatred for it :-p 
20:13 < kanzure> boundary representation is more popular though
20:13 < kanzure> i mean, the only people who use meshes are people who are clueless
20:13 < kanzure> and lots of animation/animators
20:13 < genehacker> yeah
20:13 < kanzure> (you can convert from boundary representation to a mesh)
20:13 < kanzure> but it's hard to go from a mesh to a boundary representation
20:14 < kanzure> i've been trying to write some code to do that but it's not the easiest 
20:14 < Noahj> Hmm.
20:14 < kanzure> (for the record, someone remind me to try a level set method instead of what i'm currently doing in surf.py)
20:14 < genehacker> if he hates .stl then why doesn't reprap take other formats than .stl
20:14 < Noahj> So yeah, we didn't do much, but it was a good first day 
20:14 < genehacker> what class?
20:14 < kanzure> i wish they taught me that much in the first year of mechanical engineering at ut :(
20:15 < genehacker> have you had statics yet?
20:15 < kanzure> no
20:15 < kanzure> they won't let me takei t
20:15 < genehacker> no thermo?
20:16 < genehacker> no diff eq?
20:16 < kanzure> they also won't let me take that
20:16 < genehacker> you haven't gotten to the fun stuff yet
20:16 < kanzure> oh well
20:16 < kanzure> Noahj: sounds like fun
20:17 < genehacker> the fun stuff that eats away all your time, keeps you up all the time, and drives you to near Lovecraftian insanity levels
20:17 < Noahj> No differential equations 
20:17 < Noahj> They're The Nature of Mathematical Modelling 
20:17 < genehacker> is it taught by an engineer?
20:18 < kanzure> i do use them of course and i know my way around them
20:18 < Noahj> *They're in
20:18 < Noahj> Nah, that's one of Neil's books 
20:18 < genehacker> if so you're getting a better educatioon
20:18 < kanzure> but there's three calculus courses and the fourth one is called diff eq, noah
20:18 < ybit> kanzure: "you should try a level set method instead of what" you are " currently doing in surf.py". yw
20:18 < Noahj> I know I'll have to learn that at some point, but I don't know any calculus at all
20:18 < kanzure> just use sympy
20:18 < kanzure> until you can guess its output
20:19 < genehacker> anyway ask bowyer sometime why reprap doesn't use more plastic to achieve replication of everything but screws and extruder parts
20:19 < genehacker> and by plastic I mean motors too
20:19 < Noahj> I can ask him
20:19 < Noahj> I expect he'll say because it's plastic is weak 
20:20 < Noahj> But ABS is pretty strong, right?
20:20 < genehacker> depends on how you measure something as strong
20:21 < drazak> kanzure: so what places were you looking at for your hackerspace?
20:21 < genehacker> also why hasn't he done any investment casting using the ABS plastic burnout process
20:21 < drazak> brenham looks nice
20:22 < genehacker> dammit wtf is an involute stub
20:22 < drazak> how big is a 1/2 acre?
20:23 < genehacker> accessing visualization data
20:23 < genehacker> http://www.cockeyed.com/inside/acre/uno_acre_large.jpg
20:23 < genehacker> 1 acre visualization
20:24 < drazak> is it big enough for some shipping containers?
20:25 < Noahj> I think Adrian may've been a special guest star 
20:25 < Noahj> So you could probably just email him
20:25 < kanzure> drazak: texas is very hot
20:25 < genehacker> yeah drazak
20:26 < Noahj> But if he does show up on the conference again I'll ask him questions about printing steppers and using plastic structurally 
20:26 < drazak> kanzure: yeah
20:26 < drazak> I'm trying to find some cheap land somewhere between houston and austin
20:26 < genehacker> why?
20:27 < drazak> the tx hackerspace, unless kanzure has a place in mind
20:28 < genehacker> http://houstonhackerspace.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
20:31 < drazak> eww
20:31 < drazak> too small
20:31 < genehacker> hmmm... though some country land would be good for blowing stuff up
20:31 < drazak> I'm fairly sure I could find donated shipping containers
20:31 < genehacker> finding shipping containers is hard
20:31 < drazak> I know where to find them
20:31 < genehacker> where?
20:32 < drazak> one for soldering, one for tissue culture, one for biology shite, one for meetings, one for classes, and 3 or 4 more for other shite, machine shops, etc
20:32 < drazak> shipping companies :D
20:32 < genehacker> they are fairly expensive
20:33 < genehacker> my dad's been trying to find one for storing farm equipment for a while now
20:33 < drazak> lots of places
20:33 < drazak> actually
20:33 < drazak> train stations
20:33 < drazak> they may have extra ones hanging around
20:33 < genehacker> it's the transportation cost that kill you
20:33 < genehacker> tissue culture?
20:33 < genehacker> you have my full attention
20:34 < drazak> I pretty much have a plan for setting up a tc shipping container
20:34 < genehacker> document it
20:35 < drazak> uv light in the ceiling, 2 flourescent lights in the ceiling, 2 vertical hoods, 2 incubators, a centrifuge, sink, 4C fridge, -20 freezer, -80 OR liquid N2 freezer
20:35 < drazak> both hoods equiped with UV lights
20:36 < genehacker> you'd probably need to add airconditioning too
20:36 < drazak> one pipette gun in  each hood, one on the sink/workbench area, a set of micropippeters
20:37 < drazak> you need a positive pressuresystem, with a hepa filter
20:38 < drazak> also a vaccum system is nice, either pump or water driven
20:39 < genehacker> what sort of tissue culture?
20:39 < drazak> mammal cells
20:39 < drazak> but you could do other cells
20:39 < genehacker> bacteria zoo?
20:39 < drazak> no bacteria
20:39 < drazak> nooo
20:39 < drazak> bacteria is not allowed in tissue culture rooms
20:39 < genehacker> there's this bacteria that makes a component of gun powder
20:39 < drazak> the risk of cross contamination is too great
20:40 < drazak> bacteria are handled in the general biology container
20:40 < genehacker> ok plan it out
20:40 < drazak> well
20:40 < drazak> it's useless if people don't know how to use it
20:41 < drazak> I could put together a shopping list and some rules
20:42 < drazak> they should be common sense to biology people :P
20:43 < drazak> I can also put together a list of common reagents that need to be kept in a lab
20:43 < genehacker> ok
20:43 < drazak> or should be
20:43 < genehacker> so figure out how much it cost
20:43 < drazak> lots
20:43 < drazak> I figured it out in my head after looking at some prices
20:43 < drazak> like 20 grand
20:43 < genehacker> if it costs too much then the price of being a member or using said boxes will be expensive
20:44 < drazak> well
20:44 < drazak> you could do it for less
20:44 < drazak> ;)
20:44 < drazak> I'm going to reprice it on excel at some point
20:44 < drazak> well, you could make do with less reagents
20:44 < drazak> probably about 100 things
20:45 < genehacker> figure out price as is
20:45 < genehacker> we can't make reagents yet
20:45 < drazak> what I mean is
20:45 < drazak> theres things you can omit
20:46 < drazak> that wouldn't be awfully detrimental
20:46 < drazak> but to do basic cell biology analysis there are things you need
20:50 < genehacker> do we need to do that
20:50 < drazak> stuff for pcr, stuff for westerns, (antibodies are expensive), stuff for southerns, stuff for northerns, stuff for RNA isolation, DNA isolation, protein isolation, BCA assay, stuff for histology if you do it, stuff for cell culture, gel electrophoresis, waterbaths for stuff, enzymes for restriction digest
20:51 < drazak> if you want to do any sort of reasearch, sure
20:51 < drazak> you could get enough to get a grant, get the grant, buy the rest
20:52 < drazak> transfection reagents, plasmid stuff, there's more, but whatever
20:53 < genehacker> research in a shipping container?
20:53 < drazak> sure
20:53 < genehacker> how do you intend to pay for it?
20:53 < drazak> I have no idea yet
20:55 < drazak> I'm still working on it in my head
20:56 < drazak> if we get a couple people in the lab who are published it would work
20:56 < drazak> published as first authors, that is
20:56 < kanzure> i like the idea of using shipping containers
20:57 < genehacker> is this a lab or a hacker space?
20:57 < genehacker> I do too
20:57 < drazak> both
20:57 < kanzure> this was what we were planning for headquarters
20:57 < drazak> it could have a lab portion, a hackerspace portion, a fablab
20:57 < genehacker> but the shipping containers are going to need to be retrofitted
20:57 < drazak> the whole thing would be generalized as a hackerspace, any sort of hobby you want
20:57 < drazak> sure
20:57 < kanzure> drazak: none of this is new
20:57 < drazak> kanzure: nope
20:58 < kanzure> this is already what we want to do
20:58 < drazak> I know
20:58 < drazak> I'm taking about what I'd like to do with a container or two
20:58 < drazak> I'd teach some biology classes
20:58 < drazak> at the hackerspace
20:59 < kanzure> have you taken an inventory yet
20:59 < drazak> not yet
20:59 < drazak> well
20:59 < kanzure> you suck
20:59 < drazak> I have a mental inventory
20:59 < drazak> there's a lot of things that are too specific
20:59 < drazak> that are never used
20:59 < drazak> or that were special ordered for one thing
20:59 < kanzure> right
21:01 < genehacker> http://www.nature.com/cdd/journal/v12/n4/full/4401614a.html
21:02 < genehacker> definately nothing like this drazak?
21:02 < genehacker> anyway drazak, didn't you say tissue culture was hard?
21:02 < genehacker> why not just bacteria?
21:03 < drazak> because I like mammalian cells, and the best grants are in mammalian cells
21:03 < genehacker> ok
21:04 < genehacker> have you worked with mammalian cells?
21:04 < drazak> by hard,I meant that if you've never done it before or nobody has taught you, it's hard
21:04 < drazak> aye
21:04 < drazak> that's half of what I do :)
21:05 < genehacker> do you ever use microfluidic concentration setters?
21:05 < drazak> no?
21:05 < drazak> why?
21:06 < drazak> you trypsinize for 5 minutes, add serum containing media, then count cells
21:06 < genehacker> trypsin?
21:06 < genehacker> let's see here I think there's a way to make that
21:06 < drazak> or pellet, and resuspend and then count then and then dilute
21:07 < genehacker> how much is serum?
21:08 < drazak> expensive
21:08 < genehacker> that's what I though
21:08 < genehacker> t
21:08 < genehacker> well if you can pay for it
21:08 < drazak> 500ml for 250$ and you use it 10% for FBS
21:08 < drazak> btw, trypsin is expensive
21:08 < drazak> er
21:08 < drazak> cheap
21:08 < drazak> really cheap
21:09 < drazak> http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?N4=T4174|SIGMA&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&F=SPEC
21:09 < drazak> taht's 10x
21:10 < genehacker> can trypsin be made in a bacteria?
21:10 < drazak> so you put it in either hanks saline, media without serum, hepes saline, to 1x before use
21:10 < drazak> and you only use ~1-5ml for each use
21:10 < drazak> not easily
21:10 < drazak> they get it from pigs
21:11 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
21:11 < genehacker> oh dear
21:11 < genehacker> now that's a problem
21:11 < genehacker> is it one of those proteins that can only be made like that?
21:11 < drazak> I do believe
21:12 < drazak> it's cheap as hell though
21:12 < genehacker> define cheap as hell?
21:12 < drazak> look at the link
21:13 < drazak> 22.70 for 100ml of 10x
21:13 < ybit> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CAD_models
21:13 < genehacker> whoa
21:13 < genehacker> that's cheap as hell
21:13 < drazak> exactly :)
21:13 < drazak> media is cheap as hell too
21:13 < drazak> the only expensive thing in cell culture is serum
21:14 < genehacker> what's it made from
21:14 < genehacker> bovine something rather?
21:14 < drazak> fetal bovine serum
21:14 < drazak> it's the serum from blood
21:14 < ybit> direct link to cad files dir: http://downloads.openmoko.org/developer/CAD/
21:15 < genehacker> well then can we grow cow blood?
21:15 < drazak> no
21:15 < drazak> sorry
21:15 < drazak> it's one of those things that you can't do at home
21:15 < jonathan_> is everyone here writing a grant for the gates foundation?
21:16 < genehacker> no
21:16 < genehacker> only drazak
21:16 < drazak> the thing with FBS is that it's already variable enough
21:16 < drazak> I'm not writing a grant
21:16 < drazak> for anything
21:16 < drazak> anyway, FBS is variable from lot to lot in how it affects your cells
21:16 < ybit> grants, what? no, not me :)
21:17 < jonathan_> annnnnnyone can apply as long as it fits under the catagories
21:17 < ybit> that's a lot of n characters for one word 
21:18 < drazak> none of the grants are something I'd want to be working with until I get BSL3 certified
21:18 < drazak> and then I could have no hackerspace minions
21:19 < drazak> and would need a negative pressure culture room
21:19 < genehacker> BSL3 in a hacker space?
21:19 < drazak> that's what I mean :)
21:19 < drazak> not gonna happen
21:19 < drazak> HIV/AIDS is BSL2
21:19 < drazak> could do that stuff
21:19 < genehacker> what do you want to do at Bsl3?
21:19 < drazak> everything else the gates foundation offers is pretty much BSL3
21:20 < drazak> genehacker: the gates foundation grants almost all require BSL3
21:20 < genehacker> bad bad bad not even BSL2 at a hacker space
21:20 < genehacker> no viruses
21:20 < jonathan_> not "everything"
21:20 < jonathan_> did you read some of the winners from prior rounds?
21:20 < drazak> nome
21:21 < drazak> genehacker: I'd want the TC room tobe BSL2
21:21 < genehacker> http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/index.ssf/2009/06/arteriocyte_medical_systems_wo.html
21:21 < drazak> genehacker: BSL2 is fine
21:21 < genehacker> ok
21:21 < drazak> I've worked in BSL2 rooms befor
21:21 < drazak> adenoviruses are BSL1
21:21 < drazak> lentiviri are BSL1
21:25 < drazak> the point is: theres a lot you could do
21:27 < ybit> kanzure: found another picture of you: http://ybit.ath.cx/images/dbeard.jpg
21:27 < drazak> ybit: do you like, takenotes on what I say?!
21:29  * drazak runs
21:29 < ybit> drazak: no that's me procrastinating moving http://gitorious.org/diyhplus/diyhplus_org/blobs/master/todo.org to trans-tech.yaml
21:30 < drazak> that's the bottom left, what's the bottom right?
21:30 < ybit> trans-tech.yaml
21:30 < ybit> from skdb
21:31 < drazak> we'd also need some living spaces
21:31 < ybit> hrm? 
21:31 < drazak> we'd need a bathroom, some couches, some beds, etc
21:31 < ybit> my hackerspace plan isn't on-screen, where is this coming from? :P
21:31 < drazak> a food fridge, microwave
21:31 < drazak> me thinking outlound
21:31 < drazak> I'm sure thats already planned
21:31 < ybit> yeah, i wrote down most of this already
21:32 < kanzure> ybit: do you know which episode that is from?
21:32 < drazak> I is just commenting
21:32 < ybit> are you building a hackerspace?
21:32 < drazak> reiterating if you will
21:32 < ybit> kanzure: yeah s2,ep1
21:32 < drazak> I'd like to help with your guyses
21:32 < kanzure> ybit: thanks
21:32 < kanzure> drazak: how serious are you?
21:32 < drazak> if I go to Rice
21:32  * ybit decided to form two npos
21:32 < kanzure> i mean, you're more than welcome to just come live with me
21:32 < drazak> kanzure: if I go to Rice or U of T, for sure
21:32 < kanzure> i really don't recommend university
21:33 < drazak> I'd like to go to university
21:33 < drazak> :)
21:33 < drazak> kanzure: I've been playing with some configurations in my head
21:33 < drazak> kanzure: what sorts of spaces are you planning?
21:33 < ybit> be weary of the local colleges
21:34 < drazak> obviously, I'm sure, a machine shop/fab area
21:34 < drazak> ybit: no local crap
21:34 < drazak> as list of stuff you're thinking of having would be helpful for my idea putting togetherness
21:34 < ybit> good for you
21:34 < drazak> Rice is nice because it has good research stuff
21:34 < ybit> ask in a month when it's mostly complete
21:35 < ybit> right, that's what you need to aim for, and make sure you can stand the profs.
21:35 < drazak> are you working on a layout of how you're going to have the storage containers?
21:35 < ybit> but don't listen to me
21:35 < drazak> if so I'd ask that if there are 2 or 3 for biology, that one of them is only connected to one other container
21:36 < kanzure> why does it matter
21:36 < kanzure> the point is that they are reconfigurable
21:36 < kanzure> if you have an issue you can change it
21:36 < drazak> they're hard to move
21:36 < drazak> and presumably there will be doors between them
21:36 < bkero> I need to come up with a good senior project.
21:37 < kanzure> bkero: do you need to impress someone, or can you just do something you're interested in?
21:37 < ybit> drazak has a point, you have to have a crane or cherry picker, and they aren't very cheap to rent.. then again if you're npo and some construction comp. is looking for a tax writeoff..
21:37 < bkero> It has to be a project that would take a year for a retarded CS student to complete.
21:37 < drazak> yaml
21:37 < ybit> tic-tac-toe
21:38 < genehacker> calculating PI out to a googleplex
21:38 < kanzure> bkero: so sounds like you want something that you can finish in a night
21:38 < ybit> maybe estimating the date of easter :P
21:38 < drazak> I'm not trying to find fault, they're just hard to move
21:38 < kanzure> bkero: maybe a "patch and fix a bug in a project" would work here?
21:39 < bkero> kanzure: This is a list of projects they're proposd.  http://eecs.oregonstate.edu/capstone/listproposals2009.php
21:39 < kanzure> oh these aren't entirely terrible
21:39 < ybit> btw, it's cheaper to not go with the shipping containers if you want to just build, if you want to reconfigure, it's still about the same price to just knock the wall down then to pay hundreds of dollars for someone to come out there and arrange the bins
21:40 < drazak> yeah
21:40 < drazak> research containers are expandable, not reconfigurable
21:41 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:41 < genehacker> perhaps a big warehouse
21:41 < genehacker> with roomicles
21:41 < wrldpc2> czerka
21:41 < ybit> i would invite you guys to come here, but i'm sure you don't want to live in the backwoods state of al
21:42 < wrldpc2> we should just live on the moon.
21:42 < genehacker> indeed we should
21:42 < genehacker> and form the lunar colony selene
21:42 < ybit> wrldpc2: good idea, i'm sure the aliens on the backside have couch surfing equivalent
21:42 < ybit> or that
21:43 < kanzure> i'm sorry headquarters didn't work out with alex lightman
21:43 < kanzure> i'll be able to physically jump parijata this weekend though
21:43 < bkero> ybit: Have you priced shipping containers?
21:43 < kanzure> we'll see who's who then
21:43 < wrldpc2> haha
21:43 < wrldpc2> alien douchebags
21:44 < ybit> bkero: as A*********** pointed out, as did my fasha: they are about 1.5k each
21:44 < bkero> Damn, that's pretty expensive
21:44 < wrldpc2> Lightman's a good dude
21:44 < ybit> that ebay link was misleading, they aren't 1.9k for 20
21:44 < bkero> Really really used ones are $1.5k I imagine
21:44 < kanzure> wrldpc2: have you met him?
21:44 < kanzure> i haven't
21:44 < kanzure> he doesn't return calls
21:44 < kanzure> and it's just all fishy i guess
21:44 < wrldpc2> We've had some back and forths on FB
21:44 < kanzure> ?
21:44 < bkero> Too bad shipping containers have terrible insulation.
21:44 < kanzure> oh, facebook
21:44 < kanzure> wrldpc2: well, yeah, he and i phoned each other a few tim es
21:44 < ybit> someone needs sleep or modafanil ;)
21:44 < kanzure> and parijata and i talked a lot
21:45 < kanzure> but then nothing came of it
21:45  * ybit was referring to himself :P
21:45 < ybit> adrafanil doesn't work with lack of sleep like modafanil does, in my exp.
21:46 < ybit> if you want something, you have to do it yourself.
21:46 < ybit> ..with the help of others :P
21:47 < drazak> anyway
21:48 < drazak> I like shipping containers because they have weather protection, you can build to them cheaply, and a little bit of workand they're perfect for biology
21:48 < drazak> also I'm going to bed
21:48 < drazak> maybe
21:49  * ybit was about to say that..
21:49 < ybit> i'm tucking myself into bed ;)
21:49 < ybit> anywho, the cheapest way i've found is to dig a hole and use the mud
21:49 < drazak> haha
21:49 < bkero> @dig
21:50 < ybit> + everyone loves underground laboratories
21:56 < ybit> afk, but not in that dirty sense. gn.
21:58 < drazak> night for me too
22:08 < jonathan_> wow.  if the govt passes the health bill, we will be p0wned
22:09 < katsmeow-afk> which one?
22:10 < katsmeow-afk> and, the usa gov patented some of your dna, they own you anyhow
22:12 < jonathan_> the govt will decide what is appropriate health care or not, for real
22:13 < genehacker> oh dear I guess (congress member here) hasn't been paying their royalty fees, guess they'd better fess up
22:13 < genehacker> oh dear they've made (very large number) copies of that gene and have been using it everyday?
22:13 < ybit> or stay awake, seems to be what my body wants to do. kanzure, fenn_adl how do you want methods of creating microfluidic devices placed in trans-tech?
22:14 < ybit> e.g. laser scanner, t-shirt, stm, aftm, etc.
22:15 < ybit> i'll just wing it, and you can edit or deny
22:18 < jonathan_> Ok i'm gonna start a sect.  who wants to join.  "Subsection (a) shall not apply to any individual (and any qualifying child residing with such individual) for any period if such individual has in effect an exemption which certifies that such individual is a member of a recognized religious sect or division thereof described in section 1402(g)(1) and an adherent of established tenets or teachings of such sect or division as 
22:18 < jonathan_> described in such section."
22:18 < jonathan_> my "RELIGIOUS CONSCIENCE" prohibits taking part in gov't plans to aid my "health"
22:19 < genehacker> perhaps you should consider making your own healthcare facilities
22:20 < jonathan_> i believe private companies are fine...   the gov'ts will suck balls
22:20 < genehacker> have you seen the automatic surgical robots the robotics department is working on for darpa?
22:20 < jonathan_> private = competition = increased quality.   govt = no competition = legacy of suck
22:20 < genehacker> the videos
22:21 < jonathan_> no, i havent.  though I know, those robots take years to completely succeed thru human trial tests (like 10+ years)
22:21 < kanzure> i'm not too interested in obeying any health care laws that say i can't maintain my own health
22:24 < jonathan_> sure.  you'll just pay 5+% tax on your income for that
22:24 < genehacker> anyway this bill has a good chance of passing
22:24 < genehacker> you'd better hurry up with those diy healthcare facilities
22:25 < kanzure> um
22:25 < kanzure> the point is that you shouldn't wait for me to do it
22:25 < kanzure> why aren't you already doing it?
22:25 < jonathan_> there is no benefit to doing that, because there will be no return on investment ($$$)
22:25 < kanzure> jonathan_: why do you insist on bringing money into this channel all the time?
22:25 < genehacker> researched serpentine microfluidic channels today for doing pcr
22:25 < kanzure> just a repetitive theme i've noticed
22:26 < jonathan_> private = competition = people invest $$ to succeed in marketplace
22:26 < jonathan_> lol, you asked about $10k yesterday
22:26 < kanzure> yeah my bad
22:26 < genehacker> I want a PCR disease detector
22:26 < jonathan_> you cant invest in technology w/o it
22:26 < kanzure> bullshit
22:26 < kanzure> just go build stuff
22:26 < jonathan_> at a minimum, you need to eat
22:27 < kanzure> i seem to be doing that
22:27 < jonathan_> at a maximum, you need many employees and you need to pay them
22:27 < kanzure> that's only because they demand to be paid
22:27 < jonathan_> sure
22:27 < jonathan_> then they dont work for you if you don't pay
22:28 < kanzure> yawn
22:28 < kanzure> that's not true
22:28 < jonathan_> there's a commune in china that has "solved" the problem for you, they make stuff
22:28 < kanzure> do you have any legitimate arguments against post-scarcity agalmics or are you just bullshitting?
22:28 < jonathan_> however, they still get "paid" to make stuff, although everyone gets the same pay.
22:29 < genehacker> rapid tooling doesn't need to be paid
22:29 < kanzure> genehacker: a bit yesterday asked me for a few hundred bucks to be given a torque
22:29 < kanzure> i smacked it upside the head
22:29 < jonathan_> it's 2009 man..   20 years ago techies say bandwidth was supposed to be free by now..  and server space and internet hosting and and..  
22:30 < kanzure> why are you comparing me to those techies?
22:30 < jonathan_> ..and gnu kernal was supposed to be ready, lol
22:30 < jonathan_> oh, we're talking about you now, I see
22:30 < kanzure> aren't we?
22:30 < jonathan_> ha, no
22:30 < kanzure> this was about why you keep bringing up money into my world
22:31 < jonathan_> umm
22:31 < genehacker> I don't quite understand what you said kanzure
22:31 < jonathan_> you could say the same thing about the letter "e".   "why do you keep using the letter e?"
22:31 < jonathan_> "why do you keep bringing the letter "e" into my world?"
22:31 < genehacker> torque a bit?
22:31 < kanzure> genehacker: i was bullshitting
22:31 < genehacker> ok
22:32 < kanzure> jonathan_: you mean to say that money is part of a grammar?
22:32 < jonathan_> yes, lemme see...
22:32 < jonathan_> "genehacker: perhaps you should consider making your own healthcare facilities"
22:32 < genehacker> your world? if your a solipsist I have some very good information physics arguments disproving that
22:32 < kanzure> there are many possible grammars, i don't see why i should care that you don't agree
22:33 < ybit> jonathan_: i'm guessing you are speaking of open money/metacurrency?
22:33 < ybit> re: 22:32 < kanzure> jonathan_: you mean to say that money is part of a grammar?
22:33 < kanzure> no i am not a solipsist
22:33 < genehacker> ok
22:33 < jonathan_> "build"  => "invest"
22:34 < kanzure> no
22:34 < jonathan_> "invest" => "resources"
22:34 < kanzure> sorry building came before money
22:34 < jonathan_> "resources" => "stuff"
22:34 < jonathan_> "resources" => "people"
22:34 < genehacker> not precious ore's?
22:35 < kanzure> look all i'm saying is that you're wrong to insist that money is some sort of physical constant in the world
22:35 < kanzure> i don't need to crack open a physics book to show you this
22:35 < jonathan_> I guess back when "building came before money", the people that didn't build were kicked out of the tribe to find their own meat.  so they had a good motivation to build, eh.
22:35 < genehacker> people are like $8 worth of mineral I don't think turning people into stuff is a good idea
22:36 < bkero> As raw material, yes
22:36 < bkero> But if you sel organs and other such things, they're worth millions
22:36 < kanzure> the people that were kicked out weren't sufficiently loved obviously
22:36 < jonathan_> money represents "unit of work"
22:36 < kanzure> bullshit
22:36 < kanzure> how are you defining "work"
22:36 < jonathan_> how many people do you have working on your project?
22:36 < kanzure> me
22:36 < genehacker> is it measured in joules or calories?
22:36 < kanzure> probably neither
22:36 < jonathan_> would you like to accelerate that work?
22:37 < kanzure> no not if it means compromising integrity of vision
22:37 < jonathan_> how will you motivate other people to also work on "building" your project?
22:37 < kanzure> some people are just naturally motivated to "do stuff"
22:37 < kanzure> i.e., me
22:37 < jonathan_> how will you motivate "the best" people to also work on building your project?
22:37 < kanzure> if you don't have that motivation, don't make me use your money
22:38 < genehacker> anyway how do you transition to this state and don't tell me you're one of those Zeitgeist Venus Project people who don't have to explain anything
22:38 < kanzure> who are you talking to?
22:38 < jonathan_> how many of "those people who are naturally motivated" exist and are available to work on your project,  vs.  the people who will work for pay?
22:39 < kanzure> jonathan_: if you want to pay them go ahead but i really don't care
22:39 < jonathan_> which is why the gnu kernel is still, to this day, not run by anyone
22:39 < genehacker> no one, it's a viral sorta thing that working it's way throught the memetic networks
22:39 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure hurd is run by a few guys
22:39 < genehacker> 30% saturation has been achieved
22:40 < jonathan_> sure, a "few guys"
22:40 < kanzure> ok so it works for them
22:40 < kanzure> what's the problem?
22:40 < kanzure> leave them alone
22:40 < genehacker> slasdot article link: linux nerd myth
22:40 < jonathan_> resources of a "few guys" != "perhaps you should consider making your own healthcare facilities""
22:41 < genehacker> have you started doing that yet
22:41 < kanzure> that's only because you don't know how to do it effectively
22:41 < kanzure> but remember we're changing that
22:41 < genehacker> this bill could come into action soon
22:41 < genehacker> GO GO GO!
22:41 < jonathan_> yeah, better be changed by tomorrow
22:41 < kanzure> ok sorry i'm so slow
22:41 < kanzure> maybe you should help us out?
22:41 < jonathan_> not unless you can pay, lol
22:42 < jonathan_> I gotta buy stuff "today"
22:42 < kanzure> then why are you bothering me?
22:42 < kanzure> seriously i'm confused
22:42 < jonathan_> oh, we're talking about you?  ha
22:42 < jonathan_> I sense a circle here
22:42 < kanzure> there might be one
22:42 < kanzure> so you don't want to help make healthcare facilities
22:43 < kanzure> is that right?
22:43 < kanzure> but because i do, and i don't care about money, there's a circle?
22:44 < jonathan_> I think  you're missing the "time" variable
22:44 < kanzure> yeah if only i was better
22:44 < kanzure> maybe i could get it done sooner?
22:45 < jonathan_> or, if you had more "resources" you could get it done sooner
22:45 < jonathan_> "resources" => "invest" => "stuff" + "people"
22:45 < kanzure> sorry what does this have to do with money
22:45 < kanzure> just seems like common sense to me
22:46 < genehacker> so build more ore refineries?
22:46 < kanzure> seems reasonable to me
22:47 < jonathan_> ore refineries?
22:47 < kanzure> yeah that's how you can extract and refine ore-related resources
22:47 < kanzure> it's not magic
22:47 < genehacker> anyway how do we transition to the no pay world?
22:48 < kanzure> genehacker: by building what we need
22:48 < genehacker> how is that done
22:48 < kanzure> well first you look at what you need
22:49 < kanzure> then you go ask skdb how to make it
22:49 < kanzure> then you follow the instructions and make stuff
22:49 < genehacker> ok but does skdb do that yet?
22:49 < genehacker> how do you get skdb to that level?
22:49 < kanzure> working on it
22:49 < genehacker> what work is necessary
22:49 < kanzure> well we have to input more data into the system
22:50 < kanzure> so the way that this works in the software world is that you find software on the web
22:50 < kanzure> and you say "hey, that should be included in the repo"
22:50 < kanzure> and then you package it up and submit it for inclusion
22:50 < kanzure> then everyone can use it by just getting the package and having skdb take care of it
22:50 < kanzure> instead of manually installing it or manually figuring out how to build something
22:50 < kanzure> etc.
22:50 < genehacker> ok how do I put something in the repo?
22:50 < kanzure> so what this means is that we have to either make our own hardware projects or harvest them from other free hardware projects on the web
22:50 < kanzure> you can get an ftp/ssh account i guess
22:51 < genehacker> package to be included in repo: primitive photolithography machine
22:51 < kanzure> or you could email me the files, or filebin them, or sneakernet me the files
22:51 < kanzure> do you have those CAD models?
22:51 < genehacker> ok how do I make a CAD file
22:51 < kanzure> because i'd be very interested in including those in skdb
22:51 < genehacker> no
22:51 < kanzure> wait wtf
22:51 < genehacker> I don't
22:51 < kanzure> don't you know CAD tools?
22:51 < genehacker> a CAD file of something I don't have
22:51 < kanzure> right that's why it's hard
22:52 < kanzure> we can't just make shit up
22:52 < kanzure> in some cases we can but then we need to also doubly test it as well
22:52 < genehacker> so how do we make a CAD file of (expensive hardware here)
22:52 < kanzure> i mean, what's the point of this giant database of mechanical components that just immediately fail when you try to do anything :(
22:52 < kanzure> in many cases it's going to have to be an original design i think
22:52 < genehacker> uh....
22:52 < kanzure> otherwise you might get sued
22:53 < kanzure> or people will shoot you
22:53 < kanzure> at least, that's the threat that they usually give
22:53 < genehacker> it's expensive to test mechanical components
22:53 < genehacker> ok
22:53 < kanzure> yes that's true
22:53 < kanzure> but there are simple tests you can do
22:53 < kanzure> whether or not something within a given tolerance actually works maybe
22:53 < genehacker> I'll start designing a guided missile launching system immediately
22:53 < kanzure> or whether or not the tolerances don't make sense
22:53 < kanzure> cool
22:54 < kanzure> i think that we should start with the basics though
22:54 < genehacker> well we don't have anything to make the stuff to make the missile factory
22:54 < kanzure> because if you have a launch bay, loading mechanism, and a missile/rocket, then the missile bay is easy to design 
22:54 < kanzure> right
22:54 < kanzure> we have to start with simple components and tools
22:54 < kanzure> that's why fenn has been so eager to start with screws
22:54 < genehacker> but wire guided rockets are fairly simple and can use 50's era electronics
22:54 < kanzure> screws are pre-50s
22:55 < kanzure> er
22:55 < genehacker> do metric screws
22:55 < kanzure> right?
22:55 < kanzure> yeah we've done metric 
22:55 < genehacker> so you're doing screws?
22:55 < genehacker> you can get files for those EVERYWHERE
22:56 < kanzure> hey if you know of any open source parametric screws i'd like to know about them
22:56 < genehacker> make sure to have screw making machines too
22:56 < kanzure> that are already modeled
22:56 < genehacker> use the internet
22:56 < kanzure> yeah that's a dependency on the screw right now (at least for the "build dependencies")
22:56 < kanzure> well i've searched for open source machine components before and found nothing, sorry
22:56 < kanzure> so i really doubt its existence
22:56 < genehacker> I'm sure there are files of them somewhere in old format
22:57 < kanzure> but that doesn't mean it's open source
22:57 < genehacker> does it matter?
22:57 < kanzure> yep
22:57 < kanzure> greatly
22:57 < genehacker> no it doesn't
22:57 < genehacker> just get the files
22:58 < genehacker> the asm handbook isn't opensource
22:58 < genehacker> but it's free
22:58 < kanzure> but we can't fork it
22:58 < kanzure> and we can't sell it
22:58 < kanzure> and it has all sorts of nasty copyrights on it
22:58 < kanzure> but don't get me wrong it's a good reference guide of course
22:58 < kanzure> for instance i've been using the machinist's handbook
22:59 < kanzure> to encode information into skdb
22:59 < genehacker> anyway if just you and fenn are doing screws it's going to take a long time to get to medical devices
22:59 < genehacker> also try patents
22:59 < kanzure> do you consider a gel box to be a medical device?
22:59 < kanzure> i dunno if i do
22:59 < genehacker> ok
22:59 < genehacker> point taken
22:59 < kanzure> no really i don't know
22:59 < genehacker> can you make it from scratch?
23:00 < genehacker> what about the electronics and copper?
23:00 < kanzure> just the box
23:00 < genehacker> ok so how long is it going to take to get to a milling machine?
23:01 < kanzure> actually i'm looking at the todo list in skdb
23:01 < kanzure> and we have this list of stuff that we want to package up
23:01 < kanzure> it's a pretty lame list
23:01 < kanzure> so complete this pattern:
23:01 < genehacker> should I wrangle up some people on the internet to do the job for us?
23:01 < kanzure> screws, threads, bearings, washers, .. what comes next?
23:01 < genehacker> a damn lot
23:01 < kanzure> well yeah
23:01 < genehacker> other fastening systems
23:02 < kanzure> what about besides fasteners?
23:02 < genehacker> machining process, forming processes, stuff that can't be modeled yet
23:02 < genehacker> empirical data
23:02 < kanzure> maybe a small dc motor is a good package to add next?
23:02 < genehacker> how do you make the motor?
23:03 < kanzure> i'm not really thinking straight at the moment--
23:03 < genehacker> hmm... we could probably pay chinese guys to do this
23:03 < kanzure> there's a few ways to figure out "what to do next with skdb"
23:03 < genehacker> I'm not either
23:03 < genehacker> oh dc motor
23:03 < kanzure> one way is to look at the packages that are already in skdb
23:03 < genehacker> got it 
23:03 < kanzure> and look at the dependencies
23:03 < kanzure> and then you say "is there an skdb package for that yet?"
23:03 < kanzure> and if not, you go make it
23:04 < kanzure> another way is to pick a random direction and just start there
23:04 < kanzure> but you can't pick something too complex because you won't be able to use any of the skdb packages to make it
23:04 < kanzure> er
23:04 < kanzure> i don't mean "complex" but i mean "stuff that uses a lot of other stuff not in skdb"
23:04 < genehacker> ok how about just a wax milling machine
23:04 < genehacker> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:802
23:05 < genehacker> thingiverse has somesort of dependency system
23:05 < genehacker> anyway we need more brains
23:05 < genehacker> like a lot
23:05 < kanzure> stl files?
23:05 < kanzure> what is the dependency system on thingiverse?
23:06 < genehacker> there's no way you and fenn can have digitize everything yourself within a reasonable time frame
23:06 < genehacker> tools
23:06 < kanzure> oh "required tools"
23:07 < genehacker> anyway we need to get people to do this for us
23:07 < kanzure> anyway maybe those dxf files can be converted to something more useful 
23:07 < kanzure> it looks like it's under a BSD license
23:07 < kanzure> well yeah
23:07 < genehacker> why don't we set up a point system for skdb
23:07 < kanzure> a what?
23:07 < genehacker> points or a moderator system
23:08 < genehacker> moderators give points to skdb packages
23:08 < kanzure> what for?
23:08 < kanzure> what do the points indicate
23:08 < genehacker> to motivate people
23:08 < genehacker> how good or bad a package was
23:08 < kanzure> there's actually some code that i was writing along those lines
23:08 < kanzure> you say "here's the package i just made"
23:08 < kanzure> and it reads it and then yells at you if it sucks
23:09 < genehacker> make a gui for making packages
23:09 < kanzure> this is "validation"-style not a creativity sensor
23:09 < genehacker> people are lazy
23:09 < genehacker> that's fine too
23:09 < fenn> i'd just like to point out that the asm is not free beer or speech
23:09 < fenn> UT has a paywall subscription
23:09 < kanzure> genehacker is behind the paywall so he wouldn't know that
23:10 < genehacker> oh oops
23:10 < genehacker> wonder what else this paywall works on...
23:10 < genehacker> anyway kanzure make it easier for people to make submissions
23:11 < kanzure> is it hard right now?
23:11 < fenn> points is a popularity contest?
23:12 < genehacker> also can we setup a site that isn't named skdb but is skdb, so I can wrangle people to it and we need not worry if people try to mess it up
23:12 < genehacker> no points are determined by moderators
23:12 < kanzure> so you mean quality reviews?
23:12 < fenn> so a politicized popularity contest?
23:12 < genehacker> moderators are determined by metamoderators who moderate the moderaters
23:12 < fenn> this sounds pretty dumb
23:12 < kanzure> an endless hierarchy of metamoderators!
23:13 < fenn> just use a trust network
23:13 < genehacker> it's a pyramid with main mods at top
23:13 < fenn> "people you know like this project"
23:13 < fenn> i'm trying to get away from the whole rigid hierarchy thing
23:13 < kanzure> sleep mode
23:13 < fenn> it's sooo 20th century
23:14 < genehacker> Ok kanzure I want to submit a part I made in superdesignCAD where's the box I click to upload superpart.sdc to?
23:16 < fenn> you publish it on gitweb?
23:16 < fenn> er, github
23:16 < genehacker> where's the file upload box?
23:16 < genehacker> surely you have one?
23:16 < fenn> it's not like we won't have a website but nobody's bothered to write one yet
23:16 < genehacker> then write one
23:16 < fenn> you write one
23:17 < genehacker> I can't I'm a user of SKDB
23:17 < fenn> what's better a website with nothing on it, or no website and a bunch of useful stuff?
23:17 < genehacker> we need to wrangle people to do stuff for us
23:18 < fenn> also i'm sort of afraid of what kind of submissions we'll get, if there are no 'good' examples up first
23:18 < genehacker> there won't be any good examples up first
23:18 < fenn> then i spend my entire time "educating" people how much their contributions suck, which is bad for morale all around
23:18 < genehacker> hence the point system
23:18 < genehacker> people do irrational things for points
23:19 < fenn> but everyone loves thingiverse even though it sucks
23:19 < genehacker> why is that?
23:19 < fenn> because they use twitter!
23:19 < genehacker> no
23:19 < genehacker> it's because it's easy to use and polished
23:20 < genehacker> plus it was made by Bre Pettis, a pretty popular guy
23:20 < fenn> that's what i mean
23:20 < fenn> an asshole who stole reprap
23:20 < fenn> and works for a proprietary publishing company
23:21 < fenn> don't expect me to like it
23:21 < genehacker> one option is to push thingverse toward doing what we want skdb to do and then steal files from it
23:24 < genehacker> hmmm... you wouldn't happen to Know a Matthias Lang would you?
23:25 < fenn> no
23:26 < genehacker> or any good facial recognition programs capable of recognizing faces from a provided picture
23:27 -!- nykodemus [n=nykodemu@user-24-236-97-56.knology.net] has left #hplusroadmap []
23:35 < fenn> i haven't looked into it but there are several
23:36 < fenn> start with opencv i guess
23:36 < katsmeow-afk> i thought all those face recog programs in airports did only false positives
23:38 < genehacker> that will not be necessary
23:41 < genehacker> hahaha 
23:41 < genehacker> I definately won't need it
23:42 < fenn> failure is not a requirement
23:43 < fenn> i'd rather it just feed me the raw statistical certainty
23:44 < fenn> i seem to have lost an hour
23:44 < fenn> what happened from 2200 to 2300?
23:45 < fenn> guess i was reading the backlog? didn't think i was that slow
23:58 < ybit> http://diybioforum.org/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ&oldid=186 :: pr0n spam!
23:59 < ybit> where are these schematics fo a bci kanzure, from cosmeng