--- Day changed Sat Oct 31 2009 00:00 < fenn> is that online? 00:00 < kanzure> one sec 00:00 < kanzure> uh, whoami 00:01 < fenn> http://adl.serveftp.org/app/web.py/package/lego/data/yaml ? 00:02 < kanzure> oh. no that's not recent. 00:02 < fenn> well i have no idea where you are doing development now 00:03 < kanzure> hold on, updating it. have to pull on /var/www/skdb/ 00:03 < kanzure> blah no module named templates? 00:04 < kanzure> oh that's right this is the one with all the path errors 00:06 < kanzure> grumble grumble 00:10 < CIA-23> skdb: kanzure * r aa30cd1 /packages/ (lego/metadata.yaml screw/metadata.yaml): there is no !files tag yet, so i removed it from the metadata 00:12 < kanzure> i wonder why i can't access it externally 00:12 < kanzure> it should be running on port 8080 on adl 00:15 < kanzure> i just don't understand :( 00:15 < kanzure> apache was easier to configure than this 00:19 < kanzure> the gnomes can fix this for me. g'night 00:24 < fenn> with such tiny imaging elements why do they have to have a big goofy headset? http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/ces20051.htm 00:53 < fenn> huh looks like michael vassar is actually intelligent http://sadtech.blogspot.com/2005/03/summer-vacation.html#comments 00:58 < kanzure> i'm not sure if he and i are on good terms or not 00:58 < fenn> oh get over it 00:58 < fenn> you broke an unspoken rule and he said go away 00:59 < kanzure> no before that 00:59 < fenn> oh 00:59 < kanzure> or after that, but it's more possible that the after-that was influenced by the go-away so i'm not counting it 01:19 < genehacker> lenses fenn 01:19 < genehacker> also to make it look big and goofy 01:39 < fenn> that's exactly what i don't want though 02:01 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09 -!- bkero [n=bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10 -!- bkero [n=bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:42 < splicer_> (good thing he found the singularity cult then) 02:54 -!- splicer_ is now known as splicer 03:39 < genehacker> fenn don't you want to become a gargoyle? 03:54 < fenn> i do, but those headsets just suck 03:55 < fenn> AR is supposed to be enhanced vision.. and 800x600 is not good enough to totally obscure any sort of natural face-to-face social conduct 03:56 < fenn> especially if i can get 640x480 in a tiny little blob that hangs off my glasses 03:56 < fenn> actually the microopticals were 800x600 so there's really no excues 03:58 < fenn> oops maybe not 03:59 < fenn> i'm thinking little OLED icons for your eyes aren't totally out of the question 03:59 < fenn> you'd have an IR camera eyetracker anyway 04:02 < fenn> hmm 04:03 < fenn> pentagon puts out call for "Multi-Robot Pursuit System" that will let packs of robots "search for and detect a non-cooperative human". 04:10 < genehacker> now the thing to do is to figure out how to stop packs of robots from catching you before they happen 04:11 < genehacker> I wonder if EEstor capacitors will allow handheld herf guns... 04:13 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Svalbard#Spitsbergen_Treaty 04:14 < fenn> it's quite simple to make an EMP grenade 04:15 < fenn> directing the pulse can't be that much harder 04:15 < fenn> of course then you have explosions and stuff 04:16 < splicer> it's easy to build defences against 04:16 < splicer> (the emp) 04:18 < splicer> someone once said said "for every high tech threat there is a low tech solution" 04:21 < fenn> never say never 04:23 < splicer> works for bin laden 04:23 < genehacker> it's true actually 04:24 < genehacker> you know the military's new ambush proof vehicle? 04:24 < genehacker> well it's not ambush proof 04:24 < genehacker> and can be taken out with some very simple explosives 04:24 < genehacker> like homemade explosively formed penetrators 04:25 < genehacker> also I just added "for every high tech threat there is a low tech solution" to my oneliners.txt 04:26 < splicer> for a while it was possible to blind tanks with graphite powder 04:28 < fenn> good for you 04:28 < genehacker> how were tanks blinded with graphite? 04:28 < fenn> does a relativistic bombardment count as a high tech threat? 04:28 < genehacker> quite 04:29 < fenn> pray tell, what sort of low tech solution is there? 04:29 < genehacker> for relativisitic bombardment? 04:29 < fenn> ya 04:30 < genehacker> putting a lot of mass between the relativistic bombardment and you 04:30 < splicer> i'm trying to understand what that means 04:30 < genehacker> so how were tanks blinded with graphite? 04:30 < genehacker> did graphite cover up the periscope? 04:31 < genehacker> and how was the graphite blinding problem resolved? 04:31 < splicer> they have viewports... and they could be clogged by graphite until they put high pressure washes on them 04:32 < genehacker> wouldn't paint clog the viewports? 04:32 < genehacker> or stickypaint? 04:32 < splicer> probably 04:33 < splicer> but there was graphite ordonance i think 04:33 < splicer> well spent money 04:33 < genehacker> so one solution I heard for surviving a relativistic bombardment was being inside a submarine at the bottom of the ocean 04:34 < genehacker> a submarine is lower tech than a relativistic bombardment 04:34 < fenn> i'm not sure that would actually work 04:35 < genehacker> I don't know if it would either, though it's part of the plot of a book 04:35 < genehacker> that I haven't read 04:35 < fenn> if the projectile(?) didn't actually stop, the x-rays would keep going 04:35 < fenn> er, did 04:36 < fenn> from bremsstrahlung 04:36 < genehacker> yeah, but the atmosphere likes to stop x-rays 04:36 < fenn> no it doesnt 04:37 < fenn> we use x-rays because they go straight through most matter 04:37 < genehacker> blargh there's a detailed description of what happens in a relativistic bombardment in the killing star 04:37 < fenn> yeah i know 04:37 < fenn> it's more like 'how to wipe out a solar system' 04:37 < genehacker> is that in the library 04:37 < fenn> one moment i'll fetch the relevant passage 04:38 < genehacker> fortunately the scenario presented in that book isn't realistic 04:39 < genehacker> if one civilization launches a relativistic attack, then other civilizations know they are threatening 04:39 < splicer> on the ambush topic; when I was in the army we used bury tank mines on top of each other, they weigh 7kg as I remember... 04:39 < splicer> ... on top of the mines one was supposed to put metal 04:40 < splicer> it punches a hole in anything 04:41 < genehacker> I doubt that it would really punch a hole in anything 04:41 < fenn> http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html search for 'sri lanka tower' 04:41 < genehacker> read that already 04:43 < fenn> well why didnt you say so 04:44 < genehacker> I haven't read the book 04:44 < genehacker> I asked if it was in the 'library' 04:44 < fenn> and what does that mean? 04:44 < genehacker> sleep time 04:45 < splicer> it's 15kg TNT in a hole propelling a metal plate... it does punch a hole in anything 04:46 < fenn> but you have to be standing right on top of it 04:47 < splicer> it's a mine so yes 04:47 < fenn> why not just dig a hole in the ground :P 04:47 < fenn> then you shoot them while they try to get the tank out, and you get a brand new tank 04:48 < splicer> a better way is to cut trees about a meter up 04:49 < splicer> mines are cheap and effective... and a fast way to close a road for the enemy 04:49 < fenn> seems like something like this would work better (no need to be standing right on top of it) http://youtube.com/watch?v=IH0Hr1RrV-8 04:50 < fenn> fsvo better of course 04:50 < genehacker> can it punch a hole in 5 meters of metal? 04:52 < splicer> can you put tracks on that? 04:52 < fenn> i'm not sure i believe some of those shape charge claims 04:52 < fenn> splicer: tracks? 04:52 < splicer> fenn: that was for genehacker 04:54 < splicer> (fenn, that's for intercepting missiles I think) 04:55 < fenn> yeah but why not use it as a mine? 04:55 < splicer> you do that too... tripwire and AT4 04:56 < fenn> seems kinda silly in 21st century to be using tripwire against tanks 04:57 < fenn> i mean how do you know it's actually a tank and not a mine-tripping robot? 04:57 < splicer> keeping with the low tech topic... and 'ambush safe'... it just doesn't work, because there is just too much overkill in the mines as it is 04:58 < splicer> the swedish invasion defence was based on mines 04:58 < fenn> and nobody invaded sweden so that means it worked? 04:59 < fenn> lol 05:00 < splicer> see? 05:00 < fenn> not really 05:01 < fenn> i guess not being a target is about as low-tech as you can get 05:01 < splicer> joke 05:02 < fenn> well i'm sure some enterprising bastard will come up with a counteroffensive 05:03 < fenn> "no threat too small to take seriously" seems to be DHS's motto 05:04 < splicer> the beauty of tank mines are that they actually work.... they cost nothing, you can just litter the place with them... and they do kill anything that drives over them... and it's old.. reliable tech. 05:04 < splicer> 15kg TNT in a hole 05:05 < fenn> how come the tanks don't see them? 05:05 < splicer> they are usually in a hurry 05:05 < splicer> you train to set the fields up fast 05:06 < fenn> i don't get it.. dont they map the whole place with satellites and UAV's etc 05:06 < splicer> yeah.. they are starting to now 05:06 < fenn> and you still never said why you couldn't deploy mine-tripping robots 05:07 < fenn> hell you could just have a long stick on front of the tank with some kind of triggering device 05:07 < splicer> that's an old idea... 05:08 < splicer> so you put the mines in depth... so the trigger is in a mine in front and it sets of mines further behind 05:09 < splicer> i don't know what's next.. i guess decoy fields and things like that 05:09 < splicer> in my time the problem was artillery 05:09 < splicer> the answer to that was sperading in small groups 05:14 < splicer> (and dig in and hide) 05:27 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:17 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-3-224.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:54 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-3-224.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:15 -!- nsh_ [n=nsh@khbed74-245.studenthalls.gla.ac.uk] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:56 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h179n2c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:50 < ybit> battlocde registration is open, i had initially planned on participating sometime in feb 10:50 < ybit> http://battlecode.mit.edu/2010/registration 10:50 < ybit> if anyone is interested in forming a team and as long it doesn't consume much of my time, i might be game 11:35 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE36E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE7B58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:45 < kanzure> web.py doesn't distinguish very well between /package/lego/data/yaml and /package/lego/data/yaml .. er. i mean, right now it ignores extensions on the filenames, but if there's both "data" and "data.yaml" in the package, you're not going to be able to see "data.yaml" from the web view 11:45 < kanzure> i think it would be confusing to show "data.yaml" through /package/lego/data/yaml but show "data" at /package/lego/data 11:46 < kanzure> the solution is to show "data.yaml" at /package/lego/data.yaml and "data" at /package/lego/data/ but honestly i think it's cleaner to say /package/lego/data to refer to data.yaml 11:47 < kanzure> (also, /package/lego/data.yaml/ (whatever that ends up being) should be the loaded page of parts, or something, and the 'yaml' view should use genshi syntax highlighting) 11:51 < kanzure> setting up a mail server would be so much easier if everyone didn't blacklist you by default 12:07 < ybit> Sorry, This got caught in my span box. 12:07 < ybit> Someone else from SKDB also contacted me. It's a really really cool project. 12:07 < ybit> But I think very different in may ways. 12:07 < ybit> Adam Meyer 12:07 < ybit> Industrial + Interaction Designer 12:07 < ybit> http://www.adam-meyer.com 14:22 < ybit> Adam: "Bildr is actually just focusing on people who work with physical computing or who sketch in hardware. But I belive that what works for them will in fact work well for many others. There isnt much about bildr that deals with manufacturing, or making anything that isn't code or electronics based." 14:59 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:10 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:31 < kanzure> i think adam is crazy 15:33 < kanzure> " 15:33 < kanzure> "In the OCC.KBE.Level2API you will find the work-in-progress module for 15:33 < kanzure> the high-level ( read pythonic ) API. 15:37 < kanzure> wasn't this what they were supposed to be doing 15:38 < fenn> why is it in KBE? 15:38 < fenn> pythonic != KBE 15:58 < kanzure> what's in KBE? 15:59 < kanzure> is KBE a part of OCC? 16:01 < fenn> i dont think so 16:02 < fenn> hmm too bad splicer left.. http://xkcd.com/652/ 16:02 < ybit> he doesn't mention food, just a food jar. http://www.moonminer.com/Lunar_Industrial_Seed.html 16:02 < kanzure> i like today's. 16:03 < fenn> food is already self replicating 16:03 < kanzure> ybit: i don't know why dietzler is doing all this "privately" 16:03 < kanzure> he doesn't seem to have his stuff togethe 16:03 < kanzure> *together 16:03 < kanzure> so what's the deal? 16:03 < kanzure> maybe he just doesn't know anyone interested in this 16:08 < ybit> there's tons of stuff missing, at least he attempted, didn't know he was trying to do it privately, that's lame 16:19 < ybit> i should be arriving to austin @ 10:50am on the third 16:19 < ybit> if we don't crash and burn 16:30 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-32-67.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:30 < ybit> oi genehacker2 16:36 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-32-67.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:45 < fenn> hmm idont reember anything like this 16:45 < fenn> for f in Topo(theCylinder).faces(): 16:45 < fenn> ## do_something_with_the_face() 16:45 < fenn> that's certainly easier than theh TopExp crap 16:50 < kanzure> ybit: genehacker is in the area and we can catch him if we swing by campus 16:51 < kanzure> why did i suggest that. nevermind. 16:52 < kanzure> also the mcmaster.com website is javascript bloatware 16:54 < fenn> fo rizzle 16:54 < fenn> used to be you couldn't even give someone a link to a product page 16:56 < kanzure> i can't view a product page 16:56 < kanzure> does mcmaster play nicely with konqueror? 16:57 < kanzure> it keeps on refreshing 16:57 < kanzure> totally unusable 16:58 < fenn> works fine with 3.5 16:58 < kanzure> maybe it just hates me 17:00 < kanzure> mom says angel investors post on craigslist, but i looked and i can't find evidence of this 17:00 < fenn> that's ridiculous 17:00 < kanzure> i thought so too, but she was very adamant about this 17:00 < kanzure> adament? 17:01 < fenn> 'free money, call 555-suckers' 17:01 < kanzure> maybe the problem is i've been acting like this is hard :p 17:09 < ybit> 00:45 < bkero> I can give anyone here IBM employee pricing on any Lenovo laptops. 17:09 < ybit> bkero: is that still true? 17:13 < fenn> wow pat rawlings has a hell of a lot of space paintings 17:26 < bkero> ybit: yea, but you'll have to find the link to the IBM employee store, they moved it 17:40 < ybit> paths.py uses geom.primitive collision detection? 17:41 < ybit> i don't understand how it matches up two 'mating vectors' 17:43 < ybit> 09:26 < fenn> sweep the volume of the added brick along the interface vector; boolean intersect with all the other bricks; if you get a volume back it must have collided with something 17:44 < ybit> if this is the case, where are you specifying volume? 17:45 < kanzure> the volume can be computed through opencascade as the "mass" 17:45 < kanzure> it's not actually the 'mass' but that's the term occ uses 17:45 < kanzure> anyway, it's a really really slow method 17:46 < kanzure> boolean intersect takes 40sec on any model more geometrically complex than a prism 17:47 < kanzure> mating vectors are matched up by a "control point" or "interface point" specified in the data.yaml files usually 17:47 < kanzure> so you transform one vector into the coordinate frame specified by the other 17:47 < kanzure> (one of them is "primary" or already in your assembly graph) 17:48 < kanzure> er technically the mating vector isn't a single vector, it's two vectors making up a small coordinate frame. 17:49 < kanzure> (the third vector can be deduced from the two given) 17:56 < fenn> sweeps don't really work either 18:52 < ybit> where is 'mass' specified in the api? 18:57 * ybit should be at phreaknic tonight, ohwells 19:45 < kanzure> ybit: search for Mass in geom.py 19:45 < kanzure> actually it's the one file next to geom.py 20:11 < ybit> thanks kanzure 20:11 < ybit> as a modeler, narocad wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't based on .net 20:11 < ybit> http://sourceforge.net/projects/narocad/ 20:12 < ybit> oh, and if it was for linux 20:14 < kanzure> so why is jelle making a call for *others* to do the work of the pythonocc project? 20:14 < kanzure> i mean, what is he doing? 20:14 < kanzure> wasn't that the whole point to begin with, and why do other people have to do it for him? 20:14 < kanzure> i'm perfectly willing to help, but it's just weird 20:20 < fenn> well it's probably easier for people to work on the API than some obscure SWIG stuff that takes a lot of expertise 20:20 < fenn> ybit: what does narocad have that heekscad doesn't? (besides a shitty microsoft dependency) 20:24 < ybit> nothing, it's just a not-so-bad cad modeler written in a terrible lang. 20:24 * ybit has been reading through logs 20:25 < fenn> i'm looking at the spec document, looks like they have figured out how to use a good bit of opencascade 20:25 * ybit thought occ was a csg modeler, what's with all this brep? 20:25 < ybit> -modeler 20:25 < fenn> it's not true csg, but you can do csg operations 20:25 < fenn> boolean operations actually 20:26 < fenn> better than csg anyway i think 20:26 < ybit> how so? 20:26 < fenn> even if it's horrendously slow 20:26 < fenn> because you can do arbitrary shapes 20:26 < fenn> like an stl file 20:27 < fenn> true csg uses planes and spheres and stuff 20:27 < fenn> uh.. one is not better than the other, but i'd rather be able to import a shape and subtract/add to it, rather than some funky mathematical manifold 20:29 < fenn> all right how the fuck did they do that screw thread helix 20:31 < ybit> who? where? 20:32 < fenn> http://narocad.com/doc/aplication%20design%20document.pdf page 12 20:34 < fenn> i wonder who is behind this 20:35 < kanzure> the germans 20:39 < fenn> what country's flag is blue lightblue and dark blue? :P 20:39 < fenn> http://narocad.com/pics/p.gif 20:41 < kanzure> evidence: http://narocad.com/pics/ 20:42 < kanzure> "Die angeforderte Seite darf nicht angezeigt werden." 20:42 < kanzure> how is that /not/ german 20:43 < kanzure> anyway, you probably want http://narocad.blogspot.com/ 20:43 < fenn> i think the dev is from UK (low confidence assertion) 20:46 < fenn> aha madrid 20:46 < fenn> i think this is the dev http://www.blogger.com/profile/05409605028353356569 20:47 < kanzure> Ciprian Mustiata? 20:47 < fenn> http://narocad.blogspot.com/ 20:49 < kanzure> yes that's the link i gave you 20:49 < fenn> heh 20:50 < fenn> well i found it in my roundabout way 20:50 < kanzure> the power of google? 20:50 < fenn> stalking his various internet handles 20:51 < kanzure> i had his name in my paste buffer :( 20:52 * kanzure goes back to doing other stuff 20:53 < fenn> "And here comes the fun part: I am in a Microsoft Gold certified company. I am using of course Linux (Ubuntu). Our customer uses RedHat Linux, and a JEE stack (JBoss). At home I have another Ubuntu box. 20:57 < genehacker2> ugh 20:58 < genehacker2> this is annoying, apparently Alibre design, doesn't know what undo means 20:59 < fenn> if you will want to see Naro under Linux, I recommend to you to use VirtualBox for now or help us to port the UI code to Qyoto and wrappers to C and C# bridges instead C++.NET. This could take around 2 months in developer time and can be done in two phases: first to run with Mono on Windows, second to port the UI to Qt. If you can help on this, we will see NaroCAD on Linux. 21:09 < fenn> this is kinda interesting; draw is sort of like a cli to opencascade? http://narocad.blogspot.com/2009/09/draw-test-harness-quick-tutorial.html 21:13 < kanzure> ha ha ha 21:14 < kanzure> ansi allows you to download one "free standard" on their website 21:14 < kanzure> by pointing to http://fileopen.ansi.org/FreeStandards.aspx?sku=ISO-number-here 21:14 < kanzure> by craftily changing the ISO number, you can make them all "free" 21:15 < kanzure> although i'm not so sure about the mapping between sku numbers and their filenames 21:15 < kanzure> for instance, this should work: http://webstore.ansi.org/FreeStandards.aspx?sku=ISO+10042%2fCor1%3a2005&sdo=ISO&deptid=280&filename=ISO%2b10042-2005.pdf&name= 21:15 < kanzure> this should also work: http://webstore.ansi.org/FreeStandards.aspx?sku=ISO+10042%2fCor1%3a2005&sdo=ISO&deptid=280&filename=ISO%2b10042-2005.pdf&name= 21:16 < kanzure> sku=ISO 10042/Cor1:2005 filename=ISO-10042-2005.pdf ? 21:17 < kanzure> http://fileopen.ansi.org/encservice/config.aspx 21:17 < kanzure> http://fileopen.ansi.org/encservice/exclusion.txt 21:17 < kanzure> haha "*.pdf" 21:17 < kanzure> "vanilla owner password: panther" 21:19 < fenn> how the hell do you find this stuff 21:19 < kanzure> i find things 21:21 < fenn> it doesnt seem to work 21:21 < fenn> those are the same url btw 21:21 < kanzure> does it say "download unavailable"? 21:22 < fenn> there's a 'download file' button and it's grayed out 21:22 < kanzure> does it say "transfer complete" above the button? 21:22 < fenn> no 21:22 < kanzure> browser issue.. it's a redirect anyway 21:22 < kanzure> to something like this: http://fileopen.ansi.org/encservice/DeliveryManager.aspx?TRtoLZiyEEQkrGlphhLSyz8lw8cDwtvQLo9ia8Xgj4iYazuj0AQT5zl4FHTo+WzlCve1yq/h4DJm1jtiPqWGxM1Nvz2/VWtnvVZ5jxPnGjp4LghTWP8gdCHUQQw57w6a8FePeLoKRFEt6yQn2UAnmFWtFOOFFQxaHVnstj305rXEpF9XtXioVgjXb5qrfUo3xbE023FI5Sf6R6phhN2d81ECrDXoX9hmunK3PWPgUefSCSK32WF6837/VzAew3ufRPwaqp70K+cKda8Tj14McVtl3nKIAeVGsg8zs8aXEJTgF3jkrVCgy8rwwwirS/YqXusLhlKQYC2YshBEIKyE1IFyzoKpAOXobgigr2R6KLwllC6AGAsohwiUU/fVuZy5DmuA+GOwluMEy2H4A4BeP1izxggg0APKYS6E2kqIAmCuEKAB5WAvpIcAHyhHsEBgzyFEQDnJrvgQwltuU5c7GPse2oKsAuVo+5g5p8al9luShRDeCNrSmMv1r6LX2ZKtUEhESUi4SUigtxLPVTpQDsZCog9kzAXwDIhgIWWtFOIFFKwZffgLyEecYCAhHEDOBKwFEt6CQbjSCPYZELAAQl4BDgzMBQPRviZagC7UH1orBe4++NkfW2u5DzpQDgD/wI1f0Gv9//8 21:23 < fenn> yes it redirects there, which is the grayed out button 21:23 < kanzure> oh hm. 21:24 < fenn> what am i supposed to see? 21:24 < kanzure> you click the button and it spits out a .pdf file 21:24 * fenn fires up the pig 21:25 < kanzure> that's not a very vegan thing to do to the poor pig 21:26 < ybit> the ansi webstore links worked here 21:26 < fenn> ok it works with ff 21:27 < genehacker2> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK 21:27 < genehacker2> I used the wrong angle 21:28 * kanzure needs to figure out the mapping between sku and filename 21:32 < kanzure> http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/dencoder/ <- always handy 21:34 < kanzure> hm the filenames seem to be random 21:40 < kanzure> aha, not true 21:41 < kanzure> so they are organized into groups 21:43 < kanzure> hey aren't there export regulations on DOD documents? 21:43 < kanzure> http://webstore.ansi.org/FindStandards.aspx?Action=displaydept&DeptID=3132&Acro=DOD&DpName=DOD 21:43 < genehacker2> I think so... 21:44 < genehacker2> oh well, life's not fun if you don't get on at least 5 federal watchlists 22:00 < kanzure> (10:01:27 PM) ciprian.mustiata: The spec is not done by me, is done by the person that was the mastermind of the project 22:00 < kanzure> (10:01:42 PM) ciprian.mustiata: I really don't think that he did them in OCC 22:03 < ybit> eh? narocad's spec? 22:04 < kanzure> yeah, i asked him how he did the helix 22:04 -!- ciplogic [n=opera@111.Red-88-30-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:04 < kanzure> hello ciplogic 22:05 < ciplogic> Hi Kanzure 22:05 < kanzure> ybit, fenn, meet ciprian 22:05 < ybit> btw, "Mass" and "mass" isn't located in geom.py 22:05 < ciplogic> how are you guys!? 22:05 < kanzure> ybit: it's in the file next to it 22:05 < ybit> o hi ciplogic :) 22:05 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/geom/volume_collision.py 22:05 < ybit> we were just talking about narocad :) 22:06 < ciplogic> I'm glad then I met you 22:06 < ybit> so how comes the conversion to linux ;) 22:06 < ciplogic> The Linux is a half of story 22:06 < ciplogic> Because is .NET based and we are only two devels 22:06 < ybit> si si, i saw that 22:07 < ciplogic> I'm not the first develioper, I still consider bxtrx as being the first, but I'm the close second ;) 22:07 < ciplogic> *developer 22:07 < ybit> we have quite a few devs in this channel from various projects 22:07 < ciplogic> Ok, so regarding Linux, I did tried, the bad thing is this: the interface is the least problem 22:07 < ciplogic> The biggest one is wrappers to be made mono aware 22:08 < kanzure> honestly i have worked with .net and prefer native C++ libraries 22:08 < ciplogic> The interface can be iterated via reflection and created the .ui files for qt 22:08 < kanzure> heekscad is one example 22:08 < kanzure> have you seen heekscad yet? 22:08 < ciplogic> Yes, of course 22:08 < ciplogic> C++ is just great until you want fast prototyping 22:09 < ciplogic> and fast design/debug phase 22:09 < kanzure> yeah 22:09 < kanzure> we've been using python for skdb 22:09 < ciplogic> I think I know why 22:09 < ciplogic> Anyone hates long compiling times 22:09 < ciplogic> NaroCAD so far it has around 800 (small) classes 22:10 < kanzure> clean code is one priority i think.. not making a mess of things like OCC has 22:10 < ciplogic> Yes 22:10 < ciplogic> Sometimes Naro is lacking on this respect 22:11 < ciplogic> Regarding Naro also we had (and can be put back) IronPython 22:11 < ciplogic> So if just Python is the problem, can be fixed 22:11 < ciplogic> The single problem is just to make wrappers to be mono aware 22:12 < ybit> the only two people i know who use windows in here are genehacker2 and katsmeow-afk 22:12 < ybit> ..aside from you ciplogic 22:12 < ciplogic> I use Linux in my free time 22:12 < ciplogic> I have access to OS X too :) 22:12 < ybit> oh yeah, that's right, there was mention of ubuntu earlier 22:13 < ciplogic> Honestly, in the past when Naro was in pre-alpha stage we tried to do it with Qt 22:14 * ybit is about to fall asleep, think i'll dive into volume_collision.py tomorrow. kanzure, fenn, is there anything else i might want to look at? 22:14 < ciplogic> But we considered that the downsides are much bigger than the ups 22:14 < ybit> such as? 22:14 < kanzure> ybit: core/interface.py maybe for assembly graph stuff that isn't-quite-working 22:14 < katsmeow-afk> well, windose runs with no learning curve, i want to write programs to do stuff, not spend all my time learning linux 22:14 < ciplogic> Mostly the compiling time and the C# language 22:15 < ciplogic> Which arguable is quite friendly 22:15 < ybit> just to be clear, there's a learning curve for all OSs 22:15 < ciplogic> and don't get as messy as sometimes as C++ 22:15 < kanzure> how is locking you into mono friendly? 22:15 < kanzure> i have a lab professor who wrote his entire career's work in .NET basically, and now it's stuck there 22:15 < kanzure> :( 22:16 < ciplogic> I think there are two views: one to make software done and other that talk politics 22:16 < kanzure> sure 22:16 < kanzure> well hopefully we can do better than OCC :) 22:16 < kanzure> i think that's a good standard to go by 22:16 < ybit> :P 22:16 < katsmeow-afk> ybit, windoes doesn't care where your executeable is, or tell you there's no difftween c: and d:, etc 22:17 < ciplogic> Really, Mono locks you in 22:17 < kanzure> yeah you can't run it without mono 22:17 < ciplogic> I hope that Qt locks me in to be such a great thing that to not look to .NET when we start Naro 22:17 < ybit> windows also doesn't allow you to tinker with its core libs, so, whatever floats your boat, so to say 22:17 < ciplogic> Or Java, or etc. 22:17 < kanzure> sorry i don't understand 22:17 < kanzure> you don't have to use qt. there's gtk and others.. is that what you mean? 22:17 < katsmeow-afk> ybit, i do not want to tinker with the OS, i have other code i wanna be working on :-) 22:18 < ciplogic> No: I said the lockin is sometimes by merits 22:18 < ciplogic> If Java brings everything at the tip of my finger, I will use Java 22:19 < ciplogic> Honestly, who use a Linux computer with zero proprierary things in it 22:19 < ciplogic> Like no nvidia or ati driver 22:19 < ciplogic> or no wifi driver 22:19 < kanzure> it's hard to find a computer without nvidia 22:19 < ybit> richard stallman ;) 22:19 < ciplogic> To not say that your CPU is pattented 22:19 < ciplogic> *patented 22:19 < kanzure> ciplogic: actually there's opencores.org for open hardware CPUs 22:19 < ciplogic> Who use them? :) 22:19 < katsmeow-afk> the latest M$ "autoupdates" include an nvidia driver that stuffs up severalputers here 22:19 < kanzure> ciplogic: arduino 22:20 < ciplogic> Ok, so almost no one :) 22:20 < ciplogic> There can be once an unknown patent 22:20 < kanzure> sorry what? 22:20 < ciplogic> The single problem is that almost every 1000 lines may break a patent 22:20 < kanzure> in which country 22:21 < ciplogic> I live in EU 22:21 < ciplogic> (Spain to be more precise) 22:21 < ybit> (madrid to be even more precise) 22:21 < ciplogic> :D 22:21 < ybit> we like to stalk around here :) 22:21 < katsmeow-afk> someone made a new cpu in here?! 22:21 < kanzure> what? 22:21 < ciplogic> No, my point is that no one use pure PC 22:21 * ybit wouldn't mind living in a coruna, espana 22:21 < genehacker2> the latest winblows update killed firefox 22:21 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:22 < kanzure> ciplogic: only because the pieces aren't there yet 22:22 < genehacker2> I wonder if they're trying to get revenge 22:22 < ciplogic> Ok, we talk about real life 22:22 < katsmeow-afk> genehacker2, i bet it's that nvidia driver 22:22 < kanzure> ciplogic: sorry i was talking about a fake world 22:22 < ciplogic> I am not Miguel's brother, but I use Flash on Linux when I use it 22:22 < genehacker2> firefox works 22:22 < katsmeow-afk> i have 2 puters that won't boot now 22:22 < genehacker2> it can't connect to the internet 22:22 < ciplogic> Also I install NVidia drivers 22:22 < ciplogic> I'm a sane person 22:23 < ciplogic> I hope you too 22:23 < kanzure> do you have an alternative? 22:23 < ciplogic> No, there is none 22:23 < kanzure> doomed forever 22:23 * katsmeow-afk is pondering the alternative to sanity 22:23 < ciplogic> When you talk about real life, you talk about cars that are patented 22:23 < ciplogic> Think that you listen music on radio 22:23 < ciplogic> or see a clip on youtube 22:23 < ciplogic> there is a big chance to be copyrighted 22:23 < ybit> or scanning electron microscopes which costs hundreds of thousands :\ 22:24 < ciplogic> Why not stop listening music 22:24 < ciplogic> I agree that GPL (3) applies on compilers as GCC is 22:24 < genehacker2> the alternative to sanity is madness, I have some booklets promoting it, would you like to read them? 22:24 < ciplogic> but cannot apply completely all over the world 22:24 < ciplogic> Why not 22:25 < ciplogic> please send them to email ( ciprian.mustiata@yahoo.com ) 22:25 < ciplogic> Who use FF may consider that FF may break something 22:25 < ciplogic> Or OpenOffice 22:26 < ciplogic> Or anyway, I am not anyway encouraging you to use closed source 22:26 < katsmeow-afk> genehacker2, no thanks, humans who think science is majoc, also believe logical thought is heresy and madness 22:26 < ciplogic> But I recommend you to use closed source if this is the best way to contribute for your freedom and to do it in a 1/2 of time 22:27 < ciplogic> (where applies) 22:27 < katsmeow-afk> majic 22:27 < genehacker2> http://rubbersuitstudios.com/ptcct.htm 22:27 < genehacker2> it's a joke of course 22:27 < genehacker2> no one in there right mind would actually go mad on purpose 22:28 < fenn> holy crap where did you come from 22:29 < ciplogic> fenn: who? 22:29 < ciplogic> (I just looked to your project, and is interesting) 22:30 < ybit> fenn, i think ciplogic came from a mother's womb if i'm not mistaking 22:30 < kanzure> no he came from an alien infested world (earth is it?) 22:31 < ciplogic> Question: OCC is proprietary or not? or Python? 22:31 < ybit> no, madrid 22:31 < ybit> completely different 22:31 < ciplogic> Python as far as I know, is mastered by Google 22:31 < ciplogic> OCC is free only in public version 22:31 < kanzure> http://python.org/ 22:31 < ciplogic> that do not include bug fixes 22:32 < ybit> ciplogic: python is free open source software, aka non-proprietary 22:32 < ybit> occ has a funny license 22:32 < kanzure> OCC has a weird custom license 22:32 < genehacker2> also fenn, I finished manna 22:32 < genehacker2> it was an interesting read 22:32 < ybit> genehacker2: good stuff, right? 22:33 < fenn> mono has a problem in that you have to run everything in the .NET sandbox 22:33 < ciplogic> What!? 22:33 < genehacker2> yeah, not quite sure about the whole no one is anonymous thing 22:33 < fenn> i think this is why you can't just import ironpython as a regular python module 22:34 < fenn> i may be mixing things up 22:34 * ybit takes his lego halloween costume off and readies for bed 22:34 < fenn> genehacker2: i'm looking for full text of 'the transparent society' right now 22:34 < ciplogic> IronPython as far as I know it can import the Python modules 22:34 < ciplogic> But may not be so interesting 22:34 < kanzure> no the other way around 22:34 < fenn> ybit: pics or gtfo 22:34 < ciplogic> it also can use the .NET classes 22:34 < kanzure> that's using ironpython 22:34 < ciplogic> (but without generics as far as I used it) 22:35 < kanzure> we're talking about using ironpython as a module 22:35 < kanzure> like "import ironpython" 22:35 < ciplogic> Nope :) 22:35 < ciplogic> Of course not :) 22:35 < fenn> why 'of course'? 22:35 < ciplogic> Because is based on DLR 22:35 < ciplogic> Which is a dynamic language kernel 22:35 < ciplogic> on top of .NET 22:36 < kanzure> i haven't heard this 22:36 < fenn> sure you did, from me 22:36 < ciplogic> DLR = Dynamic Language Runtime 22:36 < katsmeow-afk> want us to repeat it? 22:36 < ciplogic> With DLR you can create abstract syntax trees 22:36 < ciplogic> and a rule to compile them 22:36 < ciplogic> and it creates IL (.NET / mono bytecodes) 22:36 < ciplogic> and .NET it simply JIT them 22:37 < ciplogic> IronPython from version 2.0 is based on DLR 22:37 < fenn> well i dont care so much about using DLR as just accessing .dll's 22:37 < fenn> but i guess it needs DLR to translate from python to .NET idioms? 22:38 < ciplogic> IPy transalates to abstract syntax tree and via DLR gets to .NET idioms 22:38 < ciplogic> In the past IronPython creates directly IL code and uses Reflection.Emit method 22:39 < ciplogic> that gets bytecode (IL) and it JIT it 22:39 < katsmeow-afk> is there any rule of thumb about esoteric risc cpu design and instruction bitwidth? 22:41 < fenn> well ciplogic i am impressed with how far you've come, it's too bad you had to use .NET 22:42 < genehacker2> kanzure want the cad file for a gear for a printable stepper motor? 22:42 < kanzure> sure why not 22:42 * fenn has a terrifying thought.. what if campbell used narocad's c# bindings in graphsynth 22:43 < ciplogic> :P 22:43 < kanzure> hm.. http://63.241.103.8/ 22:43 < kanzure> wonder what this is 22:44 < genehacker2> now I have to design the stator gear 22:44 < kanzure> oooh http://63.241.103.11/tiki-index.php 22:46 < kanzure> ciplogic: yeah because of lockin 22:47 < ciplogic> kanzure: ok, OCC is lockin as is the single OSS kernel :) 22:48 < kanzure> no, it exports to STEP/IGES 22:48 < kanzure> http://tc229wiki/tiki-page.php?pageName=ANSI_Disclaimer 22:48 < kanzure> hm.. stupid network-only addresses 22:49 < kanzure> "search engine for standards provided by ANSI" http://63.241.103.20/ 22:50 < kanzure> haha what? http://63.241.103.24/BSR/default.asp 'WEB BSR-8/108 FORM: STANDARDS ACTION PUBLIC REVIEW REQUEST ' 22:50 < ybit> genehacker2: send it my way as well: heathmatlock@gmail.com 22:50 < fenn> ciplogic: wildcat-cad is a good start.. nothing besides OCC can read STEP though.. 22:51 < ciplogic> fenn: wirdcat-cad is a dead project 22:51 < ciplogic> *wild 22:51 < fenn> already? 22:51 < fenn> aww 22:51 < ciplogic> When you will see updates newer than 1 year, send me an email :) 22:51 < fenn> i really hate OCC :) 22:52 < fenn> i wish someone would chop out all the fat 22:56 < kanzure> wowza http://63.241.103.40/ homeland security standards db 22:59 < genehacker2> uh oh 23:01 < fenn> cool ventus is creative commons: http://www.kschroeder.com/Ventus/ 23:01 < fenn> gah 23:02 < fenn> http://www.kschroeder.com/my-books/ventus/filez/ventus-downloads-page 23:02 < genehacker2> this isn't illegal is it? 23:02 < ybit> ooh, aah 23:02 * ybit likes bpython 23:03 < genehacker2> argh, I made the gear the wrong size and it doesn't look very printable... 23:09 < fenn> genehacker2: are you still doing the cycloidal gears? 23:10 < genehacker2> no 23:10 < genehacker2> I finally figured out that weird profile 23:10 < genehacker2> I'm using a composite involute profile 23:11 < genehacker2> the one with cycloids on the end of involutes 23:11 < genehacker2> though now that I look at it the cycloidal profile might be more printable 23:11 < fenn> certainly 23:12 < fenn> easy to cut out with an endmill too 23:13 < genehacker2> so I need to figure out how to make that profile work with a 1 tooth difference 23:13 < genehacker2> also I wonder which profile wears down less 23:14 < genehacker2> now how do I send the file I have to skdb? 23:14 < fenn> i bet you can just scale one of them by +-1% 23:15 < genehacker2> I'm worried about wear fenn 23:15 < fenn> you'd have to make a new package 23:15 < genehacker2> ok then, I'll upload it to thingiverse 23:16 < fenn> that works too 23:16 < fenn> how are you making the profile? 23:16 < genehacker2> anyway the reason I'm worried about wear is this, what's the point of having a printable gear if it wears faster than it takes to make itself and more 23:17 < genehacker2> http://www.cartertools.com/involute.html 23:17 < genehacker2> by using cad software 23:17 < fenn> that's no fun 23:18 < fenn> ugh did you really do all that? most cad software has gear profiles built in 23:19 < genehacker2> I'd love to make a script that can make any composite involute gear I want, but I can't figure out why some of the math in the paper is giving me negative values for the radii of the arcs on the ends of the involutes 23:19 < genehacker2> unfortunately the software I have doesn't do that 23:20 < fenn> alibre? 23:20 < genehacker2> yeah 23:20 < fenn> i should try that out some time 23:21 < fenn> there are gear scripts for blender 23:21 < genehacker2> you have to be kidding me? 23:21 < fenn> what 23:22 < fenn> i think inkscape too 23:22 < genehacker2> can blender generate just an involute curve then let me find points of tangency to the involute? 23:22 < fenn> um, i don't know my way around their API enough to say 23:22 * genehacker2 achieves a FACEPALM COMBO 23:23 < genehacker2> anyway I'm not trying to generate gears, I'm trying to generate gears with an obscure gear profile 23:25 < genehacker2> well I think I need to figure out blender then 23:25 < genehacker2> when did blender become a cad tool? 23:25 < fenn> it didn't 23:26 < fenn> there were several attempts which eventually gave up 23:29 < genehacker2> oh dear 23:29 < genehacker2> people still attempt to use it to design things though, as in real things like reprap parts 23:30 < fenn> sure it's quite powerful 23:30 < kanzure> http://narocam.com/ 23:30 < fenn> some things would be really hard to do with a typical cad program 23:31 < genehacker2> like? 23:31 < kanzure> big fat pink bunnies 23:31 < fenn> anything involving deformations for instance 23:31 < fenn> or that weird stuff bathsheba grossman does 23:31 < genehacker2> yeah those are legitamate uses of stuff like that 23:31 < genehacker2> but PARTS, you must be crazy! 23:32 < fenn> some people like funky shaped parts 23:33 < fenn> narocam.com just redirects to narocad 23:33 < genehacker2> I'm not talking about funky shaped parts 23:33 < genehacker2> oh well 23:33 < genehacker2> not really my problem 23:34 < genehacker2> anyway did you every figure out how to get SVG files to import into heekscad or something and not turn out all blocky? 23:34 < fenn> it's not easy to specify an exact dimension in blender 23:35 < fenn> are you using an old version of heekscad? 23:35 < fenn> bezier curves are somewhat recent 23:36 < genehacker2> I'm talking about the what happened awhile back so yes 23:36 < fenn> procedure for making this image http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/cycloidal_gear.png 23:37 < genehacker2> so it works now correct? 23:37 < fenn> run cycloidal.py, import to inkscape, do 'simplify', save as plain .svg, import in heekscad, extrude 23:37 < genehacker2> I think I need to learn python 23:38 < kanzure> the quickest way to learn python is to type python at the terminal and start mashing buttons 23:38 < fenn> i liked 'instant python' 23:39 < kanzure> is that a cooking recipe? 23:39 < fenn> http://hetland.org/writing/instant-python.html 23:39 < kanzure> achim.weiss@1und1.de 23:39 < fenn> apparently achim is a dev too 23:40 < fenn> kanzure: you'd miss out on a lot of neat stuff if you just poked around with bpython 23:40 < kanzure> huh? i play with ipython a lolt 23:40 < kanzure> *lot 23:41 < fenn> i mean language features, like list slices or generators or whatever 23:41 < kanzure> bpython does list slices 23:41 < kanzure> or i mean it allows it 23:41 < kanzure> er.. what? 23:41 < fenn> but you have to know they exist 23:41 < kanzure> and i happen to know they exist 23:41 < fenn> well that's good for you, but no good for learning 23:41 < fenn> *bonk* 23:41 < kanzure> be quite while i learn you good 23:43 < genehacker2> http://www.boingboing.net/2009/10/22/computopia-a-circa-1.html 23:44 < genehacker2> pic related 23:44 < ciplogic> good night and bye all 23:44 -!- ciplogic [n=opera@111.Red-88-30-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #hplusroadmap [] 23:51 < genehacker2> http://io9.com/5192678/texas-officially-makes-the-universe-ageless 23:52 < genehacker2> uh oh not again 23:52 < fenn> not 3000 years? 23:52 < fenn> or was it 5000 23:54 < genehacker2> oh man this reminds me of test question I once had on the texas state wide test 23:54 < fenn> 'how old is the universe'? 23:55 < fenn> a) 3000 years, b) 5000 years, c) 12 billion years, d) none of the above 23:55 < genehacker2> it was over evolution and it asked a question about a species of squirrel branching off 10,000 years ago 23:57 < genehacker2> and that's what it takes to get science standards here in texas