--- Day changed Sat Nov 14 2009 01:03 -!- Noahj [n=noah@98.182.59.157] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:25 < kanzure> ybit: it's on the google group 01:25 < kanzure> oh right, they're evil 01:25 < kanzure> um 03:26 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-45-81.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:37 -!- splicer_ [n=patrik@h67n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:43 -!- nchaimov [n=cowtown@c-71-237-208-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:02 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-45-81.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:21 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@174.124.128.124] has quit ["Silent gratitude isn't very much use to anyone."] 09:18 < fenn> this might explain why steve jackson was "turned off" towards computers and stuff (longish): http://pastebin.ca/1671193 09:33 < kanzure> hey how do you set stickybit? 09:41 < fenn> you probably want setuid, not stickybit 09:42 < fenn> chmod +t or +s 11:05 -!- danielfalck [n=chatzill@pool-71-111-79-148.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54 -!- danielfalck [n=chatzill@pool-71-111-79-148.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:00 < ybit> was attempting to update skdb earlier... 12:00 < ybit> error: Entry 'thirdparty/graphsynth.py' not uptodate. Cannot merge. 12:00 < ybit> the solution isn't immediately obvious to me 12:06 < fenn> you must have modified graphsynth.py 12:06 < fenn> try 'git status' 12:07 < fenn> or 'git reset thirdparty/graphsynth.py' 12:08 < fenn> or maybe you need to push your changes 12:33 < danielfalck> fenn: do you have a document that gives an overview of the project here? 12:33 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb 12:35 < danielfalck> kanzure: thanks- I should have looked at topic 12:35 < kanzure> am very busy 12:43 < ybit> git stash helps 12:44 < ybit> there were changes to web.py, but they certainly aren't ready to be pushed 13:28 -!- Noahj [n=noah@98.182.59.157] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:56 -!- tim_ [n=tim@75.5.231.21] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:56 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58 -!- tim_ [n=tim@75.5.231.21] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:03 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:03 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:07 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29 < fenn> kanzure: at some point please read http://www.paulgraham.com/head.html 14:29 < fenn> we've been failing at #7 14:29 < fenn> (Don't have multiple people editing the same piece of code.) 16:06 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:06 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08 < ybit> the recommended hotel's price has gone up 16:09 < ybit> however, http://www.hotels.com/property.do?position=0&searchMtmPropertySupplierId=&propertyIdsToCompareString=&COMonth=12&PSRC=OT2&TSRC=1&numrooms=1&searchType=&usertypedcity=+Irvine%2C+CA&alternateSell=&acDestinationId=C05F04F7-EC8B-421C-B502-FE6419381D9F|65C29B93-B241-4EC8-8F1E-7830568B7EBE|Irvine%2C+CA%2C+USA|CITY&allPropertyTypesSelected=true&COYear=2009&CODay=7&paging=1&searchID=ABA8A1F3-89A2-3912-4F42-78DE8A90379C&CIYear=2009&mtnHotelID=281369&de 16:09 < ybit> $50/night 16:09 < ybit> jeremiah petit hasn't responded to my email from 4 days ago if he is still planning on going 16:09 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:10 < ybit> so, be looking at spending $20/night 16:10 < ybit> oi tim__ 16:10 < ybit> ~$80 total 16:11 < ybit> iow, when i get to austin, you two owe me $160 16:12 < ybit> ..if that's the route ya want to go 16:12 < ybit> fenn, kanzure 16:14 < ybit> decided yesterday the site needs a redesign if it's going to be a wiki, been toying with hatta today 16:14 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:14 < ybit> http://ybit.ath.cx/images/website.png 16:14 < ybit> hi tim_ 16:14 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:20 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:24 -!- tim__ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55 < fenn> wow jaque fresco is awesome.. i've never really looked into it 17:58 * fenn is watching "venus on the edge" http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30 18:07 -!- kardan_ [n=kardan@p54BE52B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:08 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE4842.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13 -!- tim_ [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:18 -!- twish [i=twish@c-0357e555.016-13-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:19 < fenn> hello twish 18:20 < fenn> how did you happen to be here? 18:20 < twish> just surfing the web 18:20 < twish> ended up here 18:21 < twish> what is this place anyway? 18:22 < fenn> a place to bounce ideas around, i guess 18:22 < fenn> i am trying to bootstrap some of the automated manufacturing software necessary for stuff like the venus project 18:24 < fenn> automated anarchism, basically 18:25 < fenn> what topic were you surfing? 18:25 < nsh> we vomit futures onto the table of technology and then draw funny pictures with a fork 18:26 < fenn> body hacking? neuroscience? diy technology? futurism? 18:26 < twish> accually i stubled on some forum posts about the zeitgeist movement 18:26 < fenn> heh really? 18:26 < fenn> please link 18:27 < fenn> we dont talk about zeitgeist much 18:27 < twish> https://www.flashback.info/showthread.php?t=761534 18:28 * fenn is watching "venus on the edge" http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30 18:28 < nsh> heh 18:29 < nsh> google translate doesn't accept alternate ports 18:29 < fenn> 101 pages in that thread? wtf? how does anyone find anything? 18:29 * nsh hates reading through massive old threads 18:30 < nsh> things like that should be progressively synopsised 18:30 < nsh> then flattened 18:30 < fenn> i am hopeful for wave's ability to condense stuff into published documents (with retained history) 18:30 < twish> hehe , well the unemplyment is high in sweden. maybe thats something to do 18:30 * nsh smiles 18:30 < nsh> where isn't it? 18:31 < nsh> apparently Azerbaijan 18:31 < fenn> a lot of this is the same stuff bucky fuller was saying with 'design science revolution' 18:31 < nsh> where there is only 00.8% unemployment 18:32 < nsh> can you elaborate, fenn? 18:32 < twish> officially or for real? 18:32 < nsh> dunno, source is CIA factbook via wikipedia 18:32 < nsh> http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/07/15/which-countries-have-the-lowest-unemployment-rates/ says lowest two unemployment rates are in andorra and monaco 18:32 < fenn> basic human needs like water, food, shelter 18:33 < fenn> automation of factories and elimination of drudgery 18:33 < fenn> use of science toward creation of wealth instead of 'illth' like bombs 18:33 < fenn> s/science/technology/ 18:34 < fenn> it's been a while so i can't just recite pages of text off the top of my head 18:34 * nsh nods 18:34 < nsh> too vague for my liking 18:34 < nsh> if you're gonna plan for the future, you need charts, not just a compass 18:35 < fenn> most people don't even know what the right direction is 18:35 < nsh> true 18:35 < nsh> but if you can tilt the landscape cleverly enough, they'll roll there whether they like it or not 18:36 < nsh> this is fascinating: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/uocp-pcz081109.php 18:37 < nsh> (tl;dr - fungus turns ants into zombies with amazing precision, to make them die in a perfect place to infect more ants) 18:37 < twish> yeah .. they covered that on BBC:s "planet earth" 18:37 < fenn> actually the ants learned and drag the infected ants far away to die 18:37 < nsh> wow 18:38 < twish> that is really amazing 18:38 < nsh> just think how cool it'll be watching an evolutionary battle like that 18:38 < nsh> sped up so it's like a chess game 18:38 < fenn> there are lots of parasites like that; ie. a caterpillar parasite that makes it crawl to the top of the leaf to be eaten by birds, then the bird gets infected and spread the spores in its feces 18:39 < fenn> i bet there are human viruses like it too, something like the asherah virus in snow crash (makes you want to have unprotected sex or whatever) 18:39 < nsh> virus designers should spend more time watching nature documentaries 18:39 < nsh> or not... 18:39 < fenn> "virus designers"? 18:40 < nsh> people who write computer viruses, that is 18:40 < nsh> or replicative code in general 18:40 < fenn> i used to think maybe the HIV virus was designed by the government or whatever.. then i actually studied it at the codon level 18:40 < nsh> what changed your mind? 18:40 < fenn> it's way too subtle and hacky to be designed by a human 18:41 < fenn> some protein genes even code forward and backward for different proteins 18:41 < fenn> nfw that was created with 1970's computer tech 18:41 * nsh nods 18:42 < nsh> hmm 18:42 < fenn> i love the bbc earth documentary 18:42 * nsh notes to watch it 18:42 < fenn> there is something called 'sunrise earth' which is just a solid hour of nothing happening in gorgeous locations 18:43 < fenn> bbc earth is on youtube i think 18:44 < nsh> nice 18:44 < nsh> of course, nothing happening is very subjective to human perception 18:44 < nsh> which is probably part of the point 18:45 < nsh> second to the beauty 18:45 < fenn> right, actually tons of detail is happening onscreen but it's impossible to describe 18:46 < nsh> mmm 18:47 < nsh> i wonder if it would seem really busy if you were raised to speak a language suited to that description 18:47 < fenn> here is an 'episode summary' if you can stand to read it http://pastebin.ca/1671690 18:47 < fenn> (yes i wrote that) 18:48 < nsh> heh, thanks :-) 18:48 < fenn> that is 'playa moonset' or something like that 18:48 < nsh> impressive recall... 18:49 < fenn> i make a habit of writing down my dreams 18:49 < fenn> felt similar 18:49 * nsh really needs to start doing that (again) 18:49 < nsh> the problem, at least for me, is that it's very hard to assess the fidelity of the recollection 18:49 < nsh> i'm never sure what i'm remembering, and what i'm elaborating into the memory 18:50 < nsh> which is ironic, because dreams are probably exactly that -- filling in the gaps between random activations 18:52 < fenn> i guess 18:52 < fenn> some dreams are much more coherent than others 18:52 < nsh> yeah, there appears to be a spectrum of lucidity 18:52 < nsh> (i wonder if there are gaps...) 18:53 < nsh> it's plausible that with training, you could selectively attenuate different faculties 18:54 < nsh> i wonder about the people who have had success with 360 degree vision, etc. 18:55 < nsh> what's the geometry of that? 18:56 * fenn points at http://fennetic.net/dreams/ 18:56 * nsh checks 18:56 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-50-85.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:57 < fenn> man i don't even remember writing half of these 18:57 < nsh> hah 18:57 < nsh> http://fennetic.net/dreams/cornworm -- disturbing... 18:58 < fenn> yeah that was a couple days ago 18:58 < fenn> i should probably draw it before i forget 19:00 < nsh> what do you use a CMM probe for? 19:01 < fenn> making sure your part is machined to spec 19:01 < fenn> is the bore perpendicular, is this edge 2.961 inches from the other 19:01 < nsh> right 19:01 < fenn> is there a dream about that? 19:02 < nsh> you mention it in passing in http://fennetic.net/dreams/random 19:04 < fenn> scotty turner really is a psycho and would ram a cement truck if it was in his way 19:05 < nsh> always fun knowing people like that 19:05 < genehacker> do you log all your dreams fenn? 19:06 < nsh> heh, i cant imagine an ugly mushroom cloud 19:07 < fenn> genehacker: no only when i am not distracted after waking up, and if the dream doesn't totally suck, and if i have the energy to write it down 19:07 < fenn> so most of them don't make it 19:08 < fenn> like today i had some dream about a bus being stopped because a power line was down, and having to hop off an escalator halfway to get to my math class 19:08 < fenn> but i didn't feel like writing it down and forgot 19:08 < genehacker> damn I think I had a pretty epic one 19:08 < nsh> i wonder if there is are any good papers that go into why dream memories are so evanescent 19:10 < fenn> because otherwise we'd go insane with positive feedback loops? 19:10 < fenn> "i keep having a dream about last night's dream!" 19:11 < nsh> good point 19:11 < genehacker> well there's a theory that we aren't getting enough sleep 19:11 < nsh> i should have said "how" rather than "why" 19:12 < genehacker> and that the real amount is 14 hours not 8 hours 19:12 < nsh> heh 19:12 < fenn> 'the real amount'? 19:12 < genehacker> yeah 19:12 < fenn> why don't you just sleep whenever you want to? 19:12 < fenn> ffs what is wrong with everyone 19:13 < nsh> jobs and education and crap 19:13 * nsh muses 19:13 < genehacker> people in a study that forced people into the same circadian rhythms that would be experienced before artificial lighting reported experiencing some pretty damn vivid dreams 19:14 < fenn> i experienced some pretty damn vivid dreams after eating (not unreasonably) large amounts of unfiltered red palm oil 19:14 < nsh> artificial light probably wreaks havoc with melanin levels 19:14 < nsh> hmm 19:15 < genehacker> dammit let me find the source 19:15 < fenn> i think i am immune to light, unfortunately 19:15 < genehacker> anyway we don't really have time for this sort of thing 19:15 < genehacker> it'd slow things down a lot 19:15 < nsh> meh, most of the economy is busywork 19:16 < fenn> we don't have time to sleep? 19:16 < genehacker> which is why we should replace people with robots 19:16 < fenn> what is the point of living? 19:16 < genehacker> I don't 19:16 < fenn> right well, i suppose your robots won't have enough time to defrag their hard disk or whatever either 19:17 < fenn> and then everything will happen instantly and it will be the end of the universe 19:17 < fenn> oh sorry i left out the bit where they invent a time machine 19:17 < genehacker> we'll just go to another one 19:18 < nsh> i had a strange idea the other day 19:18 < nsh> i was thinking about things happening in one time having "ripple down" effects on events in another time 19:18 < genehacker> or survive until the next big bang occurs 19:19 < nsh> like how we imagine it works when you go back in time and change something 19:19 < genehacker> look up closed timelike curves 19:19 < nsh> the future gets rewritten 19:19 < nsh> then i thought, what if all times are happening simultaneously 19:19 < nsh> like the hilbert hotel 19:20 < nsh> but each room is a "now", say for example, 2009, 2008, 2007 (but really it'd be continuous) 19:20 < nsh> and what's going on in the '09 earth can affect (on some archetypal level) events in the '07 earth, etc. 19:20 < fenn> you mean we only experience one causal domain? 19:21 < nsh> right, but with a continua of 'present's for each moment in what we understand as linear time 19:21 < fenn> but many could be happening (i.e. future prime 21789 where the polar bear decided to go left this time) 19:21 < genehacker> arrow of time paradox has been resolved 19:21 < nsh> kinda like how phil dick thought the present day was actually 32ad 19:21 < genehacker> it's because we can't see negative entropic events 19:21 < nsh> but it's really "everywhen" 19:21 < fenn> nsh did you ever read Anathem? 19:22 < nsh> i don't think so 19:22 < fenn> there is something like that, funny games with causality between different universes 19:22 < genehacker> you read anathem? 19:22 * nsh hoovers it up from undernet 19:22 < fenn> i can post a text file, onemoment 19:22 < genehacker> have you read snow crash and diamond age? 19:23 < fenn> bmy upload is so slow 19:23 < nsh> it's alright, fenn, html version 5.0 on its way 19:23 < fenn> ok nevermind then 19:23 < nsh> undernet#bookz is really good for sci-fi 19:24 < fenn> is that where it is now? is majecki there? 19:24 < nsh> yeah 19:24 < fenn> cool 19:24 < nsh> (though not at the moment, it seems. but definitely a little while back) 19:24 < genehacker> you did read snow crash right? 19:25 < fenn> yes 19:25 < genehacker> good 19:25 * nsh might just do a stephenson month for december 19:26 < fenn> lately i only seem to enjoy scifi written after 2000 19:26 < nsh> yeah, i've been noticing that effect with a lot of things i research 19:26 < nsh> it's like i'm subconsciously jettisoning the last millenia 19:27 -!- katsmeow [n=someone@174.124.128.124] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:27 < nsh> which is risky, because a lot things get left behind 19:27 < nsh> though i'd guess nowadays the proportion is diminishing 19:27 < fenn> 'ventus' by karl schroeder is good: http://www.kschroeder.com/my-books/ventus/free-ebook-version 19:27 < nsh> probably exponential, as everyone's writing about everything 19:28 < nsh> i'm reading Vellum, by Hal Duncan 19:28 < nsh> it's tough work, but pretty beautiful at points, which a strong premise 19:28 < nsh> *with 19:28 < nsh> (and also what inspired that simultaneous timelines idea above) 19:33 < fenn> genehacker: if you've read both of them: http://fennetic.net/misc/diamond_age_vs_golden_compass 19:35 < genehacker> hahaha 19:36 < genehacker> never read golden compass though 19:36 < genehacker> diamond age makes a heck of a lot more sense 19:36 < fenn> they are practically the same book 19:36 < genehacker> what about the matter compilers? 19:36 < genehacker> I'm pretty sure golden compass doesn't have that 19:37 < fenn> no, they don't really explain where stuff comes from 19:39 < genehacker> so most nanoscientists don't either 19:42 < fenn> god did it 19:43 < genehacker> what about the industrial espionage stuff and references to fu manchu style victorian literature? 19:46 < genehacker> don't really care though 19:51 < fenn> there's lots of victorian stuff 20:08 < fenn> fresco's buildings remind me of the desals in Ventus 20:08 < fenn> (not like anybody cares) 20:10 < genehacker> the venus project guy? 20:10 < fenn> yeah. i guess you came in right after that conversation 20:10 < fenn> quitter 20:10 < genehacker> huh? 20:10 * fenn lurks 20:11 < genehacker> venus is project looks cool and that's all it is 20:11 < genehacker> no proposed way to get there 20:11 < fenn> it's not about architecture, if you listen to him talk 20:12 < genehacker> ugh 20:12 < genehacker> his talks circulate the internet like viruses 20:12 < fenn> it's about doing a do-ocracy, and basing your decision making processes on a rational basis and for the good of humanity, instead of money 20:12 < fenn> you haven't even watched any have you> 20:13 < genehacker> watched one 20:13 * fenn is watching http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30 20:13 * fenn apologizes for spamming the url 20:13 < genehacker> his followers could be useful to us 20:14 < fenn> he doesn't have 'followers' not really 20:14 < genehacker> I should have known 20:14 < fenn> he'll be dead soon anyway 20:14 < genehacker> the zeitgeist movement 20:14 < fenn> plz ignore the awful intro to that tv show 20:15 < fenn> zeitgeist is the community around venus project 20:15 < fenn> 'wtf am i supposed to do' basically 20:15 < genehacker> we might be able to wrangle some of his follwers into working for us 20:15 < genehacker> oh 20:15 < fenn> sure 20:15 < fenn> 'the venus project' is a terrible name 20:16 < genehacker> if you can set up a site for them to work that won't be associable with skdb then I can beign the wrangling process 20:16 < fenn> skdb is one of the enabling technologies, why should it be separate? 20:16 < genehacker> so people don't muck it up 20:17 < fenn> bryan is doing a good enough job already _-_ 20:17 < genehacker> no 20:18 < genehacker> when you have something online that lots of people can edit/post to 20:18 < fenn> yes i understand 20:18 < genehacker> eventually someone will try to break it or worse 20:18 < fenn> this is what branches are for 20:19 < genehacker> branches 20:19 < fenn> alternate versions 20:19 < genehacker> anyway how do I write comments in .yaml? 20:19 < fenn> anyway there will be a "official repository" with cherrypicked changes 20:19 < fenn> # mark does comments 20:20 < genehacker> ok 20:20 < fenn> skdb can work with or without VP; but it can't work without something like skdb 20:20 < fenn> afaik nobody else is seriously working on anything similar 20:20 < fenn> except maybe smari 20:21 < fenn> hell even i haven't touched it in 2 months 20:21 < genehacker> I found some good techno so I'm in work mode 20:21 < fenn> i find music makes it hard to concentrate enough to write good code 20:22 < fenn> your process descriptions are too incomplete 20:22 < genehacker> how so? 20:22 < fenn> like wiredrawing.yaml doesn't have any tolerance specifications or surface finish or or or 20:22 < genehacker> I couldn't find it in my book 20:23 < fenn> um.. i forget where it went 20:23 < fenn> processes should have these as a minimum template: !process 20:23 < fenn> name: 20:23 < fenn> classification: 20:23 < fenn> mechanism: 20:23 < fenn> geometry: 20:23 < fenn> tolerance: 20:23 < fenn> surface finish: 20:23 < fenn> consumables: 20:23 < fenn> functionality: 20:23 < fenn> parameters: 20:23 < fenn> safety: 20:24 < genehacker> wiredrawing.yaml helped me on a quiz 20:24 < fenn> good 20:25 < fenn> i'm not sure how to automagically turn plain-text equations into functions 20:25 < genehacker> I'm not sure either 20:25 < fenn> right now i'm doing this thing with string substitute and then feed the constructed string to units, but that requires me to label all the variables and then stuff them 20:26 < fenn> i gues this would be some sort of 'factory class' 20:26 < genehacker> it'd also be better if I were to write the exact format the equations came in 20:26 < fenn> existing formats are probably going to be wrong 20:27 < fenn> all we need is something a regex can understand anyway 20:27 < genehacker> because it allows you to connect the equations with other equations for different similar processes 20:27 < fenn> hmm 20:27 < genehacker> there are certain relations that can be used among different deformation processes and stuff 20:28 < fenn> i think it's going to end up more complicated than that 20:28 < genehacker> let me send you an example 20:28 < fenn> everyone wants to use 'x' or 'gamma' too 20:28 < genehacker> IE my deformation processes equation cheat sheet 20:28 < fenn> i'm sure those scratchy hieroglyphics mean something to you 20:29 < fenn> but the important thing is to hook it into the rest of the code 20:29 < fenn> make the tacit knowledge explicit 20:29 < fenn> math hieroglyphics seems obvious to people who have been reading it constantly for years but there are a lot of ambiguities 20:30 < fenn> it doesn't have to be RDF but some kind of formalized explanation of th terms is required 20:30 < fenn> that's why i have a whole section for parameters 20:30 < genehacker> also many of these equations used are empirical relations 20:30 < genehacker> used to simplify things 20:30 < fenn> like somefunkyconstant*area? 20:31 < fenn> i dont understand how it could not be empirical 20:31 < fenn> unless it's a design rule or something, like 'metric screws come in these sizes' 20:31 < genehacker> you could use integrals to find true pressure on rolling 20:31 < genehacker> but most of the time you don't need to 20:32 < fenn> really? 20:32 < genehacker> yeah 20:32 < fenn> i mean you can calculate the exact force required? 20:32 < genehacker> I guess 20:32 < genehacker> you don't need to I think 20:33 < fenn> i'm mostly going to do curve fitting to table values anyway 20:33 < fenn> unless there is an obvious exact solution from first principles 20:33 < genehacker> figure out how to extract values from a graph and I'll give you a cookie 20:33 < genehacker> there are some relations that need data from graphs 20:33 < fenn> mechanical turk :P 20:34 < fenn> seriously machinery's handbook has just about everything in tables 20:34 < genehacker> everything 20:34 < genehacker> does it have Q_a for cylindrical upsetting? 20:35 < fenn> i don't know what your stupid letters mean 20:35 < genehacker> average pressure for upsetting of a cylinder 20:35 < fenn> but probably 20:35 < fenn> i dunno, look it up; do you have a copy? 20:37 < fenn> if you have access to adl.serveftp.org it's in /home/bryan/papers/machinery_handbook/ 20:37 < fenn> 34MB 20:39 < katsmeow> it's a good book 20:39 < fenn> 'the machinist bible' 20:40 < fenn> pray to it five times a day facing the deckel mill 20:40 < fenn> (is my ignorance showing?) 20:41 < genehacker> could you give me a link to it? 20:41 < genehacker> is it as thick as a bible? 20:41 < katsmeow> not in bytes 20:41 < genehacker> if so I want to get a hardcopy 20:42 < genehacker> and use it to preach/troll the crazy people who preach on campus 20:43 < fenn> genehacker: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/machinery_handbook/ 20:43 < fenn> there is a condensed version that is bible sized 20:46 * nsh wonders what 34mb weighs 20:46 < nsh> (at minimum) 20:46 < genehacker> I already found it 20:47 < nsh> there was some article i read one about the minimum energy required to change one bit. i think the conclusion was that a super-efficient computer would be something like a star 20:47 < fenn> was that anders wallin? 20:47 < genehacker> anyway doesn't look like it has much in the way of deformation processes 20:47 < fenn> erm. anders sandberg? 20:47 < fenn> (too any anderses) 20:48 * nsh couldn't say, sorry 20:48 < nsh> i think it was in a semi-popular science magazine. perhaps UK new scientist 20:48 < fenn> this doesn't seem right 20:48 < fenn> Hardcover: 2704 pages Shipping Weight: 2.6 pounds 20:49 < genehacker> haha 20:49 < genehacker> meh 20:49 < fenn> a lot of those 34MB is graphs and diagrams 20:50 < nsh> 34Mb of just text would be a very long book 20:50 < genehacker> I think I like Introduction to Manufacturing Processes by John A. Schey, THE GREAT PROPHET OF MANUFACTURING 20:50 < fenn> pages and pages of random numbers perhaps 20:51 < genehacker> I am disappoint 20:51 < genehacker> it doesn't have bending limit relations that can be used for anything 20:51 < genehacker> just some tables of numbers for like 3 different metals 20:52 < fenn> genehacker: no actually that would be Henry Maudslay 20:52 < nsh> In [2]: 7.66 * 823156 / 1024 / 1024 20:52 < nsh> Out[2]: 6.0132741546630859 20:53 < fenn> relevance? 20:53 < genehacker> ok 20:53 < nsh> (average word length of king james bible times number of words in king james bible, in megabytes) 20:53 < nsh> so 34Mb would be about 6 bibles 20:53 < fenn> the pdf's are compressed 20:53 < nsh> ah 20:53 < nsh> i was thinking that was a bit low 20:54 < fenn> pdf's are stupidly inefficient usually though 20:55 < nsh> i've always wondered about that 20:55 < fenn> i think it specifies the position of each line or text or something 20:55 < genehacker> ok 20:55 < nsh> lzma is probably best for text 20:55 < genehacker> machinery handbook is awesome 20:55 < nsh> not sure about images in pdfs 20:56 < fenn> lzma is the .gz algorithm? 20:56 < nsh> iirc yeah 20:56 < nsh> no, wait 20:56 < fenn> .bz2 is better and supposedly .rar is even better (but i dont see much difference) 20:57 < nsh> gzip uses DEFLATE 20:57 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Machinerysencyclopedia.jpg 20:57 < fenn> and there is some other algorithm which isn't used much in practice because it takes too much ram 20:57 < genehacker> it's not a handbook 20:57 < fenn> "Gzip reduces the size of the named files using Lempel-Ziv coding" 21:00 < fenn> "As of 2008, the most popular LZ77 based compression method is called DEFLATE; it combines LZ77 with Huffman coding." 21:00 < fenn> so it's all the same thing 21:00 < fenn> kind of disgusting people are still using software from 1977 21:01 < nsh> http://odzangba.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/gzip-vs-bzip2-vs-lzma/ 21:01 < nsh> lzma is Limpel-Ziv with markov chains 21:01 < fenn> is it different from lz77? 21:02 < nsh> yeah, it's 1998 onwards 21:02 < nsh> that last link puts it between gzip and bz2 in both time and compression ratio 21:02 < fenn> well that's useless 21:03 < fenn> he's compressing a bunch of zeroes? 21:03 < nsh> yeah, i didn't see the point of that either 21:03 < nsh> more sensible tests follow 21:05 < fenn> hardly 21:05 < fenn> compressing a .avi is stupid 21:06 < fenn> you save <1% 21:06 * nsh nods 21:06 < nsh> do you say "dot a v i"? 21:06 < fenn> yes 21:06 < nsh> suppose that makes sense 21:07 < nsh> i'd just say "an a v i" 21:07 < nsh> perhaps i revise that. 21:07 < nsh> actually, that's because i'd append "file" 21:07 < nsh> i think i would prefix with 'dot' if i didn't. 21:08 < nsh> (trivum, sorry) 21:26 < genehacker> a prospect mind has been found, evaluation process has begun 21:27 < fenn> i think the equation wrangling would be done something like this http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Python_Programming/MetaClasses 21:27 < genehacker> ok 21:28 < genehacker> so do my yaml's have worth or should I discontinue making them? 21:28 < fenn> i don't know 21:29 < fenn> honestly this is all turning out to be a lot harder than expected 21:29 < fenn> data entry takes forever and still dont eve know what the right format is 21:29 < fenn> so if you can enter good data that would help 21:30 < fenn> but i will have to recombobulate the data at some point so the more there is, the harder that will be 21:30 < fenn> hopefully easier than typing it in manually though 21:30 < fenn> the big problem is when you have concepts that are not semantically equivalent 21:31 < fenn> like 'machinability' 21:31 < fenn> god damn subjective crap 21:31 < genehacker> machinability 21:31 < genehacker> there's a way to quantify that I think 21:31 < fenn> in what units 21:31 < fenn> it's always relative 21:31 < genehacker> meters 21:32 < fenn> even material hardness is a clusterfuck 21:32 < genehacker> haha 21:32 < genehacker> oh I know 21:32 < genehacker> letters 21:32 < fenn> all these different scales, none of them with easy conversion factors 21:32 < genehacker> A, B, C, D 21:32 < genehacker> let me check my notes 21:32 < genehacker> machinability has something to do with chip length 21:32 < fenn> the scales are basically just empirical test procedures 21:32 < fenn> machinability is a lot of factors 21:33 < fenn> hardness, chip length, built up edge, toughness, heat dissipation 21:33 < genehacker> ok listening to a jaque fresco thing 21:33 < fenn> built up edge has something to do with the chemical interaction with the tool material 21:34 < genehacker> tool life can be estimated with a simple formula 21:35 < fenn> bah 21:35 < fenn> you and your simple formulas 21:35 < genehacker> there 21:35 < genehacker> is a better one though 21:35 < fenn> there are a lot of factors that go into tool life; a simple formula can't express that 21:36 < fenn> it includes: thermal shock, number of heating/cooling cycles, tool surface finish, cutting forces, resonance phenomena, and on and on 21:36 < genehacker> it depends on how accurate you want to estimate tool life too 21:37 < fenn> it almost doesn't matter, it's so easy to break a tool with any one of those 21:37 < genehacker> are we trying to make a high speed machining center 21:37 < fenn> i just want the estimate to be right 21:37 < genehacker> because that's only where it matters 21:37 < fenn> bullshit 21:38 < fenn> chatter will destroy a tool at any speed 21:38 < fenn> high carbon steel with carbide cutters and water based coolant will destroy a bit 21:39 < fenn> HSM is just a strategy 21:39 < fenn> it's not even a well defined term 21:39 < genehacker> I think I'm going to go away and read the section of my materials processing book on machining 21:39 < fenn> i consider it machine accelerations > 1g 21:39 < genehacker> surface finish is also not a very well defined term 21:39 < fenn> i guess 21:39 < genehacker> no 21:40 < fenn> there are ways to define surface finish mathematically 21:40 < fenn> but sometimes it just means 'aesthetics' you're right 21:40 < genehacker> how? 21:40 < genehacker> no I'm talking about the different ways to quantify it 21:40 < fenn> well.. one way would be a frequency spectrum (in the position domain) 21:41 < fenn> often they just assume a single frequency and give the RMS amplitude 21:41 -!- mason_l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:41 < genehacker> ok 21:41 < genehacker> that's what I'm talking about 21:41 < fenn> is it amplitude or wavelength? i dunno 21:42 < fenn> must be amplitude 21:43 < fenn> i'm kind of annoyed they don't provide the error rates in different dimensions (i.e. radius vs length on a lathe) but i wouldn't know how to generically describe that anyway 21:43 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43 < fenn> something like GD&T but i also need to be able to apply that to some kind of geometry description language 21:44 < fenn> um.. like 'a bandsaw always cuts perpendicular to the sliding surface and has moves with a minimum radius' 21:45 < fenn> then you have tolerance wrt the path deviation, squareness, isotropic surface finish etc 21:45 < katsmeow> well, dependng on how square the teeth are sharpened, etc 21:45 < fenn> but there exists no general geometry description for stuff like 'this is perpendicular to that' 21:45 < fenn> katsmeow: yes and you use various parameters in your equations 21:46 < katsmeow> and i have seen bands with all the wave on one side 21:46 < fenn> cuts? or saw blades? 21:46 < katsmeow> bandsaw blades 21:46 < fenn> seems like that would rub on the side with no wave 21:47 < katsmeow> the cheaper the chinese blade, the more likely you get anomolies 21:47 < fenn> dont use cheap blades :P 21:47 < katsmeow> yeas, i threw it out 21:48 < fenn> i wish i had experienced an "expensive" $5 tap before i tortured myself with cheap taps 21:48 < fenn> hint: hardware store taps may be expensive but they still suck 21:48 < fenn> it was even a "good old boy" hardware store :( 21:49 < katsmeow> i had one blade, the teeth were offset ay the weld, so the first pass broke off one tooth, the next pass broke off the 2nd, till i had an inch of blade ith no teth real fast, tossed that one too 21:49 < katsmeow> hardware stores in general are to make money off retail customers, nothing else 21:50 < fenn> you can't generally buy individual bolts from catalogs 21:50 < katsmeow> i asked Fastenal to make a bid on some 1 gallon paint, they bid $70, it was at Home Depot for $28, and i paid $15 for it 21:51 < katsmeow> same for a chemical i wanted, same price spread 21:51 < katsmeow> and i wasn't buying a gallon, i bought 34 gallons 21:51 < fenn> fastenal is for other peoples' money 21:51 < katsmeow> and another 15 of roofing "paint" 21:52 < katsmeow> yeas, but they do have the bearings, drillbit, bolts i want *in stock* locally 21:54 -!- mason_l is now known as mason-l 22:29 < ybit> check out 1:10:28 - 1:1302 of http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261 it describes skdb 22:30 < ybit> fenn: you helped in distracting me tonight :P 22:30 < fenn> what is that video? 22:30 < fenn> the dow human element thing? 22:30 < ybit> the venis project introduction/overview 22:30 < ybit> venus* 22:31 < ybit> something like seasteading.org would be appropriate 22:31 < ybit> and public moon establishments/settlements 22:32 < ybit> anywhere that new forms of society can be constructed 22:33 < fenn> seasteading is too hard to get started with no existing community.. see luf for example 22:35 < fenn> 'integration of all known knowledge' makes it sound so easy :( 22:37 < fenn> this guy sounds like a computer 22:39 < ybit> 1:15:26 - 1:16:43 mentions their view of how to utilize a database system of knowledge 22:40 < fenn> a database doesn't analzye :( 22:41 < fenn> i dont like how he never discusses decision making processes 22:42 < genehacker> the austrailia project bears resemblence to the venus project, coincidence? I think not 22:43 < kanzure> so is this 3daystartup or 3daywankery? 22:43 < kanzure> man 22:44 < genehacker> having fun? 22:44 < kanzure> not really 22:45 < genehacker> how so? 22:49 < genehacker> what progress have you made so far? 22:49 < katsmeow> ybit, is seasteading.org going to DO anything? 22:49 < genehacker> have you talked to any gene synthesis companies? 22:51 < ybit> genehacker: they weren't able to understand the importance of it 22:52 < ybit> or its relevance to making $ 22:52 < ybit> katsmeow: i don't know, i haven't looked into it yet 22:52 < katsmeow> o 22:53 < katsmeow> over the years they have cranked ot a lot of webpages, but zero hardware 22:53 < genehacker> as expected 22:53 < genehacker> it's run by business people doing important business things 22:53 < ybit> i just now brought it up, remembering that some speaker at the h+ summit was going to discuss it, so then i found the website and plan on viewing it later tonight 22:54 < genehacker> create competition? who'd want to do that? 22:54 < ybit> genehacker: yeah, i was thinking this is as well listening to jacque (or however you spell it) talk about 22:54 < ybit> that's exactly what i was thinking 22:54 < genehacker> heh 22:54 < ybit> they need to remove that 22:55 < ybit> er, was that referring to seasteading.org or 3ds? 22:55 * ybit was talking about the seasteading.org description 22:55 < ybit> competition in a future society doesn't make sense to me 22:56 < genehacker> 3day start up 22:56 < genehacker> oh 23:01 < fenn> rawr why don't they have a 'download in > 120pixel resolution' button 23:04 < kanzure> ybit: your server isn't on