--- Day changed Sun Nov 22 2009
00:08 -!- danielfalck [n=chatzill@pool-71-111-79-148.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:11 < genehacker> I'll bet you could charge $5
00:11 < genehacker> $2 for a hot dog?
00:11 < genehacker> sounds like a deal
00:11 < genehacker> also
00:11 < genehacker> don't mix coke and cofee
00:12 < genehacker> it's always a bad idea
00:38 < katsmeow-afk> sedatives and caffine don't mix
01:39 -!- flamoot [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1242454863.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:04 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
10:00 -!- kardan_ [n=kardan@p54BE49B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:16 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE78AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:53 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:28 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:28 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:40 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:41 -!- zancas [n=zancas@c-71-201-189-153.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
13:17 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:26 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
13:28 < fenn> dammit does nobody run unit tests?
13:29 < fenn> since when does this not work?
13:29 < fenn> package = skdb.load_package('screw')
13:30 < ybit> so no hatta?
13:31 < ybit> what wiki to use?
13:31 < ybit> fenn, kanzure 
13:31 < kanzure> fenn: Package("screw")
13:31 < kanzure> ybit: god damnit, why don't you listen to either of us
13:32 < kanzure> fdslkadsladl'dsa;l
13:32 < ybit> s/damnit/dammit
13:32 < ybit> jklsdfajkldfjkasdf
13:32 < kanzure> sorry, it's damnit
13:32 < kanzure> i'm damning it
13:32 < kanzure> not damming it
13:32 < fenn> i can't even load a package without opencascade involved
13:32 < fenn> it's dammit
13:32 < kanzure> fenn: not true..
13:32 < ybit> http://www.answers.com/dammit
13:33 < fenn> ok well i can't load lego because of opencascade
13:33 < kanzure> show me
13:33 < fenn> wtf
13:33 < fenn> skdb.load_package('lego')
13:33 < kanzure> sorry, how does that show me anything
13:33 < fenn> then about six pages of traceback ending with:
13:33 < fenn> ImportWarning: skdb.geom not loaded. load_CAD not available.
13:34 < kanzure> that should be a warning
13:34 < kanzure> not an assertion
13:34 < kanzure> "raise ImportWarning, ..." 
13:34 < kanzure> my bad.
13:35 < kanzure> that should maybe be a print?
13:35 < kanzure> ybit: we're not using hatta
13:35 < kanzure> ybit: i don't know if you remember, but i was working on djangit for a while
13:35 < ybit> yeah i know, that's why i'm asking
13:35 < kanzure> and then on ~/code/skdb/web/web.py
13:35 < kanzure> but apparently you've forgotten already
13:35 < ybit> yeah, i do, but we switched to cherrypy
13:35 < fenn> well a warning shouldn't cause whatever i'm doing to fail
13:35 < kanzure> web.py still exists
13:36 < kanzure> fenn: it's not a warning. it's a "raise"
13:36 < fenn> ImportWarning isn't a warning?
13:36 < ybit> i just didn't want to create a wiki from scratch -_-
13:36 < kanzure> nope
13:36 < kanzure> it says "raise ImportWarning"
13:36 < kanzure> raise makes stuff stop
13:36 < fenn> am i supposed to use some other keyword besides raise?
13:36 < kanzure> ybit: oh please.
13:36 < kanzure> fenn: i was the one who wrote that
13:36 < kanzure> this is my fault.. it shouldn't be "raise"
13:36 < kanzure> it should probably just be "print"
13:36 < fenn> i dont understand; how do you do a warning without fucking everything up then?
13:36 < kanzure> i don't think i've ever done that
13:36 < fenn> print goes to stdout
13:37 < kanzure> i guess you can do print >sys.stderr, "blah"
13:37 < fenn> well, whatever. i'm sure there's a correct way to do it but i guess i don't care anymore
13:37 < kanzure> sorry it's >>
13:37 < kanzure> you don't care?
13:37 < fenn> i'm saving my apathy for later
13:38 < fenn> to be savored as a fine delicacy
13:38 < kanzure> should i fix this or are you going to fix it?
13:38 < fenn> um, i'm just wondering what to say is  the "correct" way to load a package
13:38 < fenn> yaml.load isn't it
13:38 < kanzure> Package("name goes here")
13:39 < fenn> that fails the same way load_package does
13:39 < kanzure> god damn it
13:39 < kanzure> didn't i just explain this?
13:39 < kanzure> so i asked you
13:39 < kanzure> are you going to fix this or should i?
13:39 < fenn>   File "screw.py", line 48, in __init__
13:39 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r c9128c7 /core/part.py: because fenn is too lazy?
13:39 < fenn>     if thread == None: raise ValueError
13:40 < fenn> now i know i did something with that line, but you messed with it before that and it was even worse, and i dont even think it should check anything about thread?
13:41 < kanzure> when i do pscrew=Package("screw") i get something about tensile_area in threads.py
13:41 < kanzure>     assert Unit(self.pitch).compatible('mm/rev')
13:41 < kanzure> AssertionError
13:41 < kanzure> not anything about a ValueError?
13:41 < fenn> and anyway why is thread == None?
13:41 < kanzure> == checks if two things are equal
13:41 < kanzure> it's not assignment
13:41 < fenn> um. then it really ought not to do that
13:42 < fenn> because something != nothing
13:42 < kanzure> .. but it could be nothing
13:42 < kanzure> how long has it been since you've touched any code?
13:42  * fenn hunts around for the elusive nothing
13:42 < kanzure> it's very easy to "return None"
13:42 < kanzure> and then if you have something assigned to that return value, that something is None
13:43 < kanzure> how are you getting the ValueError?
13:44 < fenn> Package("screw")
13:45 < kanzure> i get an assertion error about Unit(self.pitch).compatible('mm/rev') in threads.py
13:45 < kanzure> when i run that
13:45 < kanzure> are we running the same version?
13:46 < fenn> i'm running adl/master
13:49 < fenn> wow this is amazingly broken.. i dont know what's going on
13:49 < fenn> why is all this thread stuff in screw.py?
13:50  * fenn notes all the lines saying "shouldnt this be in thread.py?"
13:50 < kanzure> then move it?
13:50 < kanzure> didn't you write this?
13:51 < fenn> wah. go away
13:51 < fenn> this is giving me a headache
13:51 < kanzure> seems too complicated
13:51 < kanzure> how did this happen
13:52 < kanzure> i think we tried to cram too much yaml magic into metadata.yaml
13:52 < kanzure> (tag hack?)
13:53 < fenn> does load_package even do anything with metadata.yaml?
13:53 < kanzure> heh skdb.Package("screw") works on adl for me.
13:53 < kanzure> yes
13:53 < kanzure> loaded_package = load(package_file(name, 'metadata.yaml'))
13:56 < kanzure> so the only reason for most of the complexity in Package is because of tag hack and the "template" attribute in metadata.yaml
13:56 < kanzure> if the 'template' data is removed the point of the metadata is sort of lost. you'd /have/ to download the package to figure out if it's even remotely possibly compatible with something
13:57 < CIA-33> skdb: fenn * r 4dd003d /core/part.py: plz at least try out yer changes
13:57 < kanzure> yes i imported sys and forgot to commit
13:57 < fenn> i don't believe it; sys still wouldn't be defined in the module scope
13:58 < fenn> anyway
13:58 < kanzure> in the module scope? huh?
13:58 < fenn> i guess you wouldn't get the error at all because OCC is installed
13:59 < kanzure> actually i did get the error the first time because i was in code/skdb/core/ and so it was importing "skdb.py" when i was in bpython
13:59 < kanzure> silly mistake on my part
14:02 < fenn> what's up with git on adl
14:02 < kanzure> hm?
14:02 < kanzure> library errors?
14:02 < fenn> something about libcurl
14:02 < kanzure> i updated libcurl a few weeks ago for something unrelated
14:03 < kanzure> if you know how to revert to a previous .deb of it, please go ahead
14:05 < fenn> sure you are running an up to date version on adl? i get the same error there
14:06 < fenn> of skdb*
14:06 < kanzure> huh? no i updated libcurl on adl, not on my laptop
14:06 < kanzure> oh
14:06 < kanzure> blargh? no i'm not
14:06 < kanzure>  /home/bryan/code/skdb/ is symlinked to /var/www/skdb
14:06 < kanzure> (and that's what's in my $PYTHONPATH over there)
14:06 < kanzure> git: /usr/lib/libidn.so.11: no version information available (required by /usr/lib/libcurl-gnutls.so.4)
14:07 < kanzure> ok now i get the ValueError
14:07 < kanzure> that makes sense though because in the __init__ for Screw in packages/screw.py it sets thread to None
14:07 < fenn> i fixed git at least
14:07 < kanzure> how?
14:07 < fenn> apt-get install libidn11
14:08 < kanzure> "GNU Libidn library, implementation of IETF IDN specifications"
14:08 < fenn> yeah, whatever that is
14:11 -!- zancas [n=zancas@c-71-201-189-153.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
14:12 < kanzure> will you clean up screw.py's __init__ re: thread shit?
14:16 < fenn> yah
14:19 < fenn> OCC is installed on adl.. so am i like the only person who doesn't have it installed?
14:20 < kanzure> i think so yes :)
15:22 -!- branstrom_ [n=branstro@c-381de055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:22 -!- branstrom_ [n=branstro@c-381de055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:27 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:28 < kanzure> fenn: we have a few .png's in the git repository
15:28 < fenn> so?
15:28 < kanzure> i was wondering if it would be terrible if i commit a .ico
15:28 < fenn> no, i'm mostly concerned about file sizes, that's all
15:28 < kanzure> binary data and such
15:29 < kanzure> ok
15:29 < kanzure> it'll be really really tiny :)
15:29 < fenn> yeah they are like 1k
15:49 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:59 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Success]
16:04 -!- flamoot_ [n=root@69.158.94.148] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:06 < kanzure> i wish yaml had more mature path resolvers
16:06 < kanzure> er, pyyaml
16:16 -!- flamoot [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1242454863.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:33 < kanzure> hey doesn't github have their source up on the web somewhere?
16:39 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r c96c8b7 / (10 files in 6 dirs): added an email-based authentication system to web.py
17:03 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r a9b19e9 /web/web.py: converted from email-based authentication to username-based authentication
17:55 < fenn> yo kanzure can you re-enable wondershaper please?
17:56 < kanzure> done. dunno if it was running already or not though
17:56 < fenn> hmm must just be slow
17:57 < kanzure> sam is filtering my emails to replab
18:08 < fenn> i think you totally missed the point of his essay
18:08 < fenn> it's like you figured you knew what he was going to say before reading it
18:09 < kanzure> i'm kind of angry about replab.org if you haven't noticed
18:09 < fenn> i noticed; i think you're unfounded
18:09 < kanzure> it's awesome they want to do this
18:10 < kanzure> i feel ignored
18:10 < fenn> 'rfid powder' 0.05mm x 0.05mm
18:10 < kanzure> hm?
18:11 < fenn> is that for real?
18:11 < kanzure> did i do that?
18:11 < fenn> no
18:11 < kanzure> context?
18:11 < fenn> it's in charles collis' oekonus presentation
18:11 < fenn> oekonux*
18:11 < fenn> adciv.org/Slides  slide 8
18:12 < fenn> don't ask me why i'm reading this
18:13 < kanzure> eff why eye: http://localhost:8081/package/lego/data/yaml
18:13 < kanzure> need to figure out how to do distribs
18:13 < kanzure> er
18:13 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego/data/yaml
18:14 < fenn> what does the cookie store?
18:14 < kanzure> a session identifier
18:14 < kanzure> do you know how sessions work?
18:15 < fenn> i think it's like, whether you close the browser window or not
18:15 < kanzure> basically instead of giving you a cookie with all sorts of fun info, 
18:15 < kanzure> i just give you one cookie, and cherrypy keeps track of some data for me
18:15 < kanzure> in particular a User object
18:15 < kanzure> which, for you, doesn't exist
18:15 < fenn> why are all the carriage returns stripped out? is that what happens when you dump text into html?
18:16  * fenn mumbles something about <pre> tags
18:16 < kanzure> if you view the source of the page you'll see the carriage returns are there
18:16 < kanzure> this is just a plain dump
18:16 < kanzure> sowwy
18:16 < kanzure> html doesn't respect \n
18:16 < fenn> oh. then it's a mime type problem
18:16 < kanzure> rightright
18:16 < kanzure> but yeah, distributions
18:17 < fenn> um, sorry to be so clueless, but is this a new development?
18:17 < kanzure> no
18:17 < kanzure> but user authentication is :)
18:17 < fenn> meh
18:17 < kanzure> so for distribs,
18:17 < fenn> what are "distribs"?
18:17 < kanzure> on the web if joestupid edits the screw package,
18:17 < kanzure> he can screw up a lot of hardware
18:18 < kanzure> for this reason i was thinking of copying github's model of having users have their own git repos
18:18 < fenn> right
18:18 < fenn> that was always the idea
18:18 < kanzure> (either on the server or aggregated from other servers)
18:18 < kanzure> right
18:18 < kanzure> so how do we specify which 'distribution' to use for individual parts
18:18 < kanzure> right now in the code base, in the metadata, we don't specify anything other than a tag/name
18:18 < kanzure> "er, use cold rolling. there"
18:19 < fenn> um.. each package is its own git repo, right?
18:19 < kanzure> yes
18:19 < kanzure> but referring to it by commit is not enough
18:19 < fenn> because it's not a URL?
18:19 < kanzure> nonono
18:19 < fenn> i dont see why you cant refer to a commit
18:19 < kanzure> you can
18:19 < kanzure> ybit/screw/screw.yaml
18:19 < kanzure> fenn/screw/screw.yaml
18:20 < kanzure> ybit's screw might have lots of changes
18:20 < fenn> but i can pull from ybit
18:20 < fenn> then fenn/screw/screw.yaml has changes too
18:20 < kanzure> well
18:20 < kanzure> er
18:20 < kanzure> this feels upside down
18:20 < fenn> now, version numbers would be a nice thing, and that's one thing i dont like about git
18:20 < kanzure> i was thinking that you shouldn't have to download all of the hardware on the server
18:20 < kanzure> since you're already on the server
18:20 < kanzure> in debian each package doesn't contain all other packages
18:21 < fenn> what server?
18:21 < kanzure> heybryan.org:8081
18:21 < kanzure> er
18:21 < fenn> adl?
18:21 < kanzure> fenn/screw/screw.yaml is your local changes to a screw, this is true
18:21 < fenn> some hypothetical server?
18:21 < kanzure> but what if you want to use ybit's screw
18:22 < kanzure> i don't think a copy of every single piece of hardware should be in fenn/
18:22 < fenn> fenn/ is my home directory?
18:22 < kanzure> the whole point of packages is that you can refer to them
18:22 < kanzure> fenn/ is like http://github.com/kanzure/
18:22 < kanzure> so yes(?)
18:22 < fenn> huh
18:22 < fenn> what's wrong with having everything?
18:22 < kanzure> why not just refer to the package
18:22 < fenn> people would only make mirrors of packages they have modified
18:23 < kanzure> right now it sounds like you can _only_ mirror
18:23 < fenn> well that's how github works
18:23 < kanzure> yes but that's not hwo packages work
18:23 < fenn> we can also give people access to various packages if they want
18:23 < fenn> write access*
18:23 < kanzure> oh
18:23 < kanzure> so here's what i was thinking of, maybe this is stupid
18:24 < kanzure> i want to be able to say "use kanzure's wheel, commit blah"
18:24 < kanzure> or "use wheel, commit blah" if you want the one from the global namespace
18:24 < fenn> mirrors can be merged, that's why dvcs rule
18:24 < fenn> just say what commit and provide the url you got it from
18:24 < fenn> is that too much data?
18:25 < kanzure> ok so that's not the same thing as only allowing mirroring
18:25 < kanzure> right?
18:25 < fenn> i cant think of a better way to do distributed version numbers
18:25 < fenn> we can still do branches if it matters
18:25 < kanzure> i don't think we're talking about the same thing
18:25 < kanzure> and i'm still stuck
18:26 < fenn> no i'm confused, maybe you should flap your mouth and make noises or something
18:26 < kanzure> on a user's hard drive, they should have a local copy of all of the .git's for packages, yes
18:27 < kanzure> (that's their local cache of packages)
18:27 < kanzure> on the server, the situation is different since the equivalent of /etc/apt/sources.list is basically "everyone on here"
18:27 < kanzure> so there's namespace conflicts on "wheel" when there's fenn/wheel.git and ybit/wheel.git etc.
18:28 < kanzure> so we need to be able to say /who's/ wheel
18:28 < fenn> i still don't get why the server has multiple copies of the same package
18:28 < kanzure> we approve some packages right? and others we might say "haha, no thanks"
18:29 < kanzure> but others might still use those packages if they are on the server, the ones that we didn't include in the main distribution
18:29 < fenn> we don't have to host mirrors we dont like
18:29 < fenn> here's how the linux kernel does it
18:29 < kanzure> if a user doesn't have write access to the main distribution, then they can put it in their local namespace
18:29 < kanzure> this is how github does it :)
18:29 < fenn> each dev hosts their own git repo. they send a git-format-patch to the linux dev mailing list
18:30 < kanzure> right
18:30 < fenn> it automatically gets emailed to the correct 'lieutenant' who approves or deniesthe change
18:30 < fenn> then the lieutenant forwards to linus for his veto
18:31 < fenn> then linus does some massive git-pull from all the individual lieutenants
18:31 < fenn> that's all there is to it
18:32 < kanzure> ok?
18:32 < kanzure> not what i'm talking about :(
18:32 < fenn> unfortunately we can't use that model because people are too stupid to host their own repo or send changes to a mailing list
18:32 < kanzure> yes, this is just a repo hosting service layer thingy
18:32 < fenn> ok i think that should be totally separate from everything else
18:33 < kanzure> github.com/main/ will be the one that Master Linus commits to
18:33 < fenn> because it's one nad only function is to pretend like it's github
18:33 < kanzure> so we shouldn't host other people's hardware?
18:34 < kanzure> or by 'separate' what do you mean
18:34 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:34 < fenn> i just mean it's a totally different thing from "the database"
18:34 < kanzure> the what?
18:34 < kanzure> you don't use that word often.. 
18:34 < fenn> hum
18:35 < fenn> well originally the idea was to have a select aggregation of hardware, compiled into a distribution (autogenix)
18:35 < kanzure> yes
18:35 < fenn> but lots of other people would be using the software for their own stuff, whether anyone cared or not
18:35 < fenn> there's a lot of crap on thingiverse you notice
18:35 < fenn> but we only want like 5% of it
18:35 < kanzure> it's seeping out :(
18:36 < fenn> now hosting the other 95% is ok but i just want to be clear what's what
18:36 < kanzure> right
18:36 < kanzure> this is why i was saying 'distributions'
18:36 < kanzure> now, 
18:36 < kanzure> what if someone wanted to make a new package
18:36 < kanzure> that depended on something from the other 95% of the stuff
18:36 < kanzure> from the 'crapbin'
18:36 < fenn> most thingiverse crap is not changes to other peoples' crap
18:37 < fenn> if you have good stuff that is derived from crap, then we can import the whole history of changes; that's why git is cool
18:37 < kanzure> there needs to be a way to specify a dependency in terms of which distribution it's from.
18:37 < fenn> no you just clone the crap
18:37 < fenn> -_-
18:37 < kanzure> it still doesn't make sense
18:38 < kanzure> for every user on thingiverse, each user should have a clone of every other package in their personal home folder on thingiverse?
18:38 < fenn> the goal is to reduce data redundancy right?
18:38 < fenn> no, each use has a clone of whatever package they've made changes to
18:38 < fenn> (unless they have write access to the package)
18:39 < kanzure> ok great so how does skdb know to use their screw rather than some other screw
18:39 < fenn> if it really actually in all honesty depends ona certain commit, then one should be able to specify that...
18:39 < fenn> but i hope people are smart enough to not depend on such miscellanea
18:40 < fenn> that's the point of OO, because people were digging in undocumented DOS registers and then it changed
18:40 < kanzure> a dependency on autogenix/screw.git v. a dependency on ybit/screw.git
18:40 < fenn> information hiding, whatever (not OO)
18:40 < fenn> you're not paying attention
18:40 < fenn> autogenix/screw.git is just a file location, not a version
18:41 < kanzure> ok true
18:41 < fenn> oh duh
18:41 < fenn> we can put version numbers in the metadata file
18:42 < kanzure> all i'm asking is that when a user makes a new package on the website, how do they say "use this version from this distribution"- *without* copying every single package in existence to their home dir?
18:43 < kanzure> s/copying/merging via git/
18:43 < fenn>  url and commit hash?
18:44 < fenn> some urls have hashes embedded, but then you'd have to extract it if the url is bad
18:44 < fenn> could be annoying if the url scheme changes
18:45 < kanzure> so let's say i modify a non-autogenix package. this means i clone it and put it into my home dir on the server, etc.
18:46 < fenn> you keep saying "the server"
18:46 < kanzure> someone else then can depend on it by using a url/hash to github.com/kanzure/screw/4104814u90jfadsoiufh89341
18:46 < kanzure> yeah a server
18:46 < fenn> any old server anywhere on the net, right?
18:46 < kanzure> well
18:46 < kanzure> for practical purposes, we might not want to allow that on ours
18:46 < kanzure> since importing a package means running python
18:47 < fenn> yeah well that's why we separate good from bad
18:47 < kanzure> no i mean.. er.
18:47 < kanzure> on our server, we "import skdb" in web.py
18:47 < kanzure> and if you do load_package() on some foreign package, just to display a CAD model or something,
18:47 < fenn> ffs make up some names please
18:47 < kanzure> you could be executing malicious code
18:47 < kanzure> names?
18:47 < fenn> all these servers i can't keep them straight
18:48 < fenn> johnny fabonic uploads his changes to the tesla roadster to his free fabonautix account
18:49 < kanzure> sally mcmistress makes a new package and depends on the johnny's tesla roadster
18:49 < fenn> elon reviews johnny's changes and decides to incorporate them
18:50 < kanzure> sally also has a free fabonautix account
18:50 < fenn> elon does 'git pull fabonautix.com/johnny/tesla.git'
18:50 < kanzure> without fenn knowing it, johnny included malicious code in tesla.git
18:50 < fenn> fabonautix goes out of business and johnny's mirror is gone forever
18:50 < kanzure> web.py is programmed to "import skdb" and run packages to make certain views on the website
18:51 < fenn> sally uploads her changes to mcmistress.com
18:51 < kanzure> when elon and sally view tesla.git over fabonautix's web view, fabonautix is fucked
18:52 < fenn> what's fucked?
18:52 < kanzure> tesla.git depends on badhacker.com/malicious-code.git
18:52 < kanzure> web.py would have to download that dependency in order to, say, render a CAD model for sally and elon when they view the page on fabonautix's site
18:53 < fenn> um, no, that's retarded
18:53 < fenn> all files necessary for the package should be included in the package
18:53 < kanzure> so then you _don't_ like URLs for dependencies?
18:53 < fenn> packages depend on other packages
18:53 < kanzure> it's no different from them hosting on fabonautix, badhacker.com, etc.
18:53 < fenn> right so we have tools to manage dependencies
18:54 < fenn> when elon pulls the changes it should notify him of the external dependency, 'you want to download? [y/n]'
18:54 < kanzure> ok so how would it run on fabonautix?
18:54 < kanzure> fabonautix would only run packages that have dependencies hosted on fabonautix? big deal.. they can just upload malicious code
18:54 < fenn> how would what run, the apt-get style tool?
18:55 < kanzure> the package/code
18:55 < kanzure> Package("lego") <-- python is being executed from the lego package when you run that
18:56 < fenn> i dont think i ever figured out a good solution for that
18:57 < fenn> anyway, all the dependcies are in metadata.yaml
18:57 < fenn> no python involved
18:57 < fenn> unless its some quantitative thing like 'power output > 50W'
18:57 < kanzure> ok maybe web.py will distinguish between approved packages and questionable packages. "approved" packages will have more on-web functionality. 
18:58 < kanzure> "questionable" packages (that haven't been reviewed) will still exist on the server, but the python won't be executed except for the metadata
18:58 < kanzure> this (might) mean no CAD preview for "questionable" packages 
18:58 < kanzure> (especially for python-based code that generates a CAD model)
18:58 < fenn> you know about virtualization right?
18:58 < fenn> for sandboxing
18:59 < kanzure> in general.. but not specifically for this
18:59 < fenn> each fabonautix user could get their own virtual server.. :(
18:59 < kanzure> a sandbox on each page loaad?
18:59 < kanzure> blah
19:00 < fenn> ok how about only static data for web preview
19:00 < fenn> screws.py gereates a bunch of step files, but that only gets called manually
19:00 < kanzure> so when you download elon/tesla.git it might have a dependency on sally/something-or-other.git which is on fabonautix. 
19:00 < kanzure> what i'm wondering is how the dependencies should be written down
19:00 < fenn> i dont understand why you wouldn't download the dependency
19:00 < kanzure> should they say {username or distrib name}/blah blah blah
19:01 < kanzure> well you might have multiple versions on the hdd
19:01 < kanzure> i guess git merge cna handle that
19:01 < kanzure> *can handle that
19:01 < fenn> you should be thinking about it in terms of branches, not username
19:01 < fenn> like sally's branch is the hot pink paintjob branch
19:02 < kanzure> ok so you need to specify a branch and a commit then. 
19:02 < kanzure> can you selectively git clone/pull/whatever from particular branches?
19:02 < fenn> yeah
19:03 < kanzure> ok so all branches (specified in your dependencies) must be on fabonautix already?
19:03 < kanzure> i mean, if you want things to work
19:03 < fenn> yeah
19:04 < fenn> disk space is cheap btw
19:04 < kanzure> do you sign your commits with a key?
19:04 < kanzure> (you personally)
19:04 < fenn> i dont know how to do that, but yeah the 'good' branch would be signed after it was reviewed
19:04 < kanzure> was just wondering because i dunno how github does it 
19:05 < kanzure> in its display of commit messages it links to my username
19:05 < kanzure> but for you it doesn't do anything
19:05 < kanzure> but what if someone registers 'fenn' on github?
19:05 < fenn> oh you
19:05 < fenn> 're just worried about username conflicts?
19:05 < kanzure> this is a new issue. not worried, just wondering
19:07 < fenn> all this signing and reviewing is a lot of work, so i don't expect day to day development work to involve all this crap
19:08 < fenn> probably only once per minor release
19:09 < kanzure> no i mean username conflicts in terms of the users registered on fabonaughter versus the usernames in the commit messages
19:09 < fenn> meh
19:09 < fenn> this isn't AIM
19:09 < fenn> we grownups can use real mathematics
19:09 < kanzure> what does math have to do with it?
19:10 < fenn> public key signing
19:10 < kanzure> so we do want individual commits to be signed? or what?
19:10 < kanzure> or at least allow it as an option
19:10 < fenn> only release commits i think
19:10 < fenn> (bear with me a sec)
19:11 < fenn> say i make five changes, then decide it's good enough for a while and make a release
19:12 < fenn> it gets uploaded to autogenix.org, i sign the commit hash with my key and paste that number in some document in the central autogenix.org repo
19:12 < fenn> the commit i signed depends on the other four commits so they must be good too right?
19:12 < kanzure> yes
19:23 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego/data/edit 
19:24 < fenn> a 'submit' button would be nice
19:24 < kanzure> bah! blasphemy
19:29 < kanzure> i wonder if you can set a cookie through ajax
19:29 < kanzure> that would be nifty because right now an unregistered user can't edit a page
19:29 < kanzure> (but i think we should let them edit and be able to register to save their changes, without losing their progress)
19:30 < fenn> hm
19:30 < kanzure> i already tried on genebay to pass the content of their POST to the login form, but that didn't work
19:30 < kanzure> and after discussion with the cherrypy peeps i gave up on that
19:30 < kanzure> so ajax it is.. sorry lynx users :(
19:30 < fenn> i think that would be confusing, to edit something and then realize you have to register
19:31 < fenn> better to just not make the edit button show up if not registered
19:31 < kanzure> doesn't that lose the wiki-like appeal?
19:31 < fenn> if it were wiki-like we'd just let people edit whatever, which i'm still totally open to doing
19:32 < kanzure> ok cool
19:44 < kanzure> branch naming conventions plz?
19:47 < fenn> anthropomorphic assembly robots: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZqLe0aWz8mg
19:51 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
20:23 -!- Juul [n=Juul@85.235.22.9] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:24 < fenn> there is no dana
20:24 < fenn> there is only juul
20:24 < Juul> :P
20:26 < Juul> where does the name for the channel come from?
20:26 < fenn> a webpage on heybryan.org somewhere, which may no longer exist
20:27 < Juul> ok
20:27 < fenn> do you know about transhumanism?
20:28 < kanzure> sam thinks i'm worthless apparently?
20:28 < Juul> yes
20:29 < Juul> hey kanzure, just read up on the skdb project. much greatness. i like the ambition of it
20:29 < fenn> kanzure: that's why he was filtering your mail? because it's worthless?
20:29 < fenn> erm, you're worthless i mean
20:30 < kanzure> fenn: he claims skdb is not interesting and isn't related to replab at all
20:30 < kanzure> "unless you're highly autistic"
20:30 < fenn> well, is that supposed to be an insult?
20:30 < kanzure> no there's a smiley face after that
20:31 < fenn> well who elected sam to be god
20:32 < kanzure> marcin
20:32 < fenn> marcin loves skdb
20:32 < kanzure> since when
20:32 < fenn> since a few days ago
20:32 < fenn> when i explained it to him
20:34 < fenn> Juul: tell me more about yourself, what got you interested in skdb?
20:34 < Juul> i actually looked at skdb briefly a few days ago, but it wasn't until i read the slides that i had any clue how it would work. and the slides are easy to miss
20:35 < fenn> what slides?
20:35 < kanzure> Juul: do you know what "apt-get" is?
20:35 < Juul> fenn, http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/presentations/updates-from-austin.pdf
20:36 < fenn> ok, i think that presentation is awful but apparently it does something for people
20:36 < Juul> kanzure, sure, but that doesn't actually tell you how much work has already been done. it seemed very much like an idea with no implementation yet before i saw the slides
20:36 < kanzure> oh what about the code in the repository?
20:36 < fenn> nobody looks at code, and even if they did they wouldnt know what they were looking at
20:36 < Juul> exactly
20:37 < Juul> i just thought "huh, well guess i'll check back later when there's more info"
20:37 < fenn> i'm afraid it's really hard to make pretty pictures of this sort of thing, or i would have done it long ago
20:37 < kanzure> if you're not a developer maybe that's a good idea?
20:37 < kanzure> er
20:37 < kanzure> i mean, everyone is appreciated
20:37 < kanzure> but to be honest developers are what we need most
20:37 < fenn> anyone can learn to write a yaml document in 20 minutes
20:38 < kanzure> ok, a developer or someone with half a clue about engineering :)
20:38 < Juul> i am actually a developer
20:38 < kanzure> neat
20:39 < kanzure> are you sam?
20:39 < Juul> fenn, to answer your question: i'm booting a hackspace/fablab in Copenhagen right now, Denmark right now. IT engineer and studying biotech engineering now
20:39 < Juul> nope
20:39 < Juul> wow, i screwed that sentence up
20:40 < fenn> huh i was just talking about copenhagen, about why legos are expensive (taxes in denmark)
20:40 < Juul> heh, i remember some cheap clone-legos on the market here about 10 years ago
20:40 < Juul> they were horrible
20:40 < genehacker> that's why?
20:40 < fenn> supposedly.. i think it's actually because lego groups i a bunch of greedy fucks
20:40 < kanzure> Juul: ok sorry to confuse you. i guess you're fresh blood then
20:40 < genehacker> fresh meat
20:41 < genehacker>  is the more correct term
20:41 < Juul> kanzure, no problem, i'm new here yeah. only recently got on the open manufacturing mailing list
20:42 < Juul> i think lego definitely charges more because they have the patents, but the high minimum wages and taxes in denmark are also a factor
20:43 < Juul> it's not like someone can compete though, so i guess they just try to estimate how much people are willing to pay
20:45 < Juul> so what are your backgrounds / approximate locations?
20:46 < kanzure> background: internet :). i'm in austin
20:46 < Juul> ah cool. is "mojo's daily grind" still there?
20:48 < kanzure> er, one sec
20:49 < fenn> lego factory is completely automated, no humans actually do anything in the factory
20:49 < fenn> so 'high minimum wages' is hardly an excuse
20:50 < Juul> hehe, they still have employees doing packing and trucking, but yes, it should have minimal effect
20:54 < fenn> so i can get a usb composite video input dongle, and a usb to vga output dongle, but no such thing as a usb to composite output
20:55 < genehacker> completely automated you say?
20:55 < genehacker> heheheheh
20:56 < fenn> that's what rauchwerk said at least
20:56 < genehacker> if only it was capable of automatic resource requisitioning
20:58 < fenn> 'more plastic needed'
21:01 < genehacker> ie robots getting more plastic automatically
21:01 < fenn> oh you mean stealing?
21:01 < fenn> you're such an immoral person
21:01 < genehacker> not necessarily
21:02 < Juul> the factory has evolved an AI and is secretly building a lego robot army by ordering 1% more plastic than needed for the normal lego production
21:02 < genehacker> heh
21:03 < genehacker> in b4 lego self-replicating machines
21:06 < Juul> been done --> http://tekartist.blogspot.com/2007/02/lego-mindstorms-automated-car-factory.html
21:06 < fenn> wow this is terrible.. apparently marcin doesn't know what "recursion" means: http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Technological_Recursion
21:15 < Juul> either that, or he's explaining it very poorly
21:16 < Juul> no, you're right
21:21 -!- Juul [n=Juul@85.235.22.9] has quit ["sleep"]
21:30 < kanzure> hm maybe that was erik
21:35 < fenn> erik is belgian (?)
21:36 < fenn> apparent juul is a danish name
21:37  * fenn needs a better euphemism for 'google says'
21:42 < fenn> "If you already know what recursion is, just remember the answer. Otherwise, find someone who is standing closer to Douglas Hofstadter than you are; then ask him or her what recursion is."
21:44 < kanzure> did you come up with that?
21:44 < fenn> no it was on wikipedia
21:44 < kanzure> ha
21:44 < kanzure> i think that's even better :)
21:48 < kanzure> http://samba.org/~jelmer/dulwich/
21:48 < kanzure> "Dulwich is a pure-Python implementation of the Git file formats and protocols.
21:48 < kanzure> The project is named after the village in which Mr. and Mrs. Git live in the Monty Python sketch."
21:48 < kanzure> head explodes
21:49 -!- phwooenix [n=chatzill@99-190-134-198.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:50 < kanzure> hello phwooenix 
21:50 < phwooenix> heyo
21:50 < kanzure> hm an austinite
21:50 < phwooenix> its david
21:50 < kanzure> treadwell?
21:50 < phwooenix> or should i have let you keep guessing?
21:50 < phwooenix> nope
21:50 < kanzure> lee?
21:51 < phwooenix> yessir
21:51 < kanzure> i was ready to go through about 20 others
21:51 < kanzure> hi. what's up?
21:51 < phwooenix> nothing much just decided to visit
21:51 < kanzure> i'm reading over http://samba.org/~jelmer/dulwich/tutorial/ at the moment
21:53 < phwooenix> git is that version control stuff?
21:53 < kanzure> yep
21:53 < kanzure> this is, in particular, for a website i'm working on, to let users use git without knowing it
21:54 < phwooenix> how do you mean?
21:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/
21:54 < kanzure> hardware on this website is going to be stored in git repositories
21:55 < kanzure> so links/buttons need to do stuff with git. that tutorial ishopefully going to be useful to me in this endeavor
21:56 < phwooenix> hmmm your site takes extremely long to load
21:56 < kanzure> it's being hosted on my residential connection :(
21:57 < phwooenix> oh i see
22:01 -!- flamoot [n=root@69.158.94.148] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:01 -!- flamoot_ [n=root@69.158.94.148] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
22:11 -!- phwooenix_ [n=chatzill@99-190-134-198.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:13 < kanzure> wb
22:20 -!- phwooenix [n=chatzill@99-190-134-198.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
22:27 < fenn> Marc Juul <marcjc@gmail.com>
22:27 < kanzure> from where?
22:28 < fenn> cc'ed to "Fablab inventory and beyond" recently cross posted to hell and back
22:28 < kanzure> are you still raped by cross-posts?
22:28 < fenn> i havent really figured out how to deal with it, no
22:29 < kanzure> i wonder why marcin linked to http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=MIT_Fab_Lab_item_list rather than our list
22:29 < kanzure> haha he said "C02"
22:29 < kanzure> i mean the formatting sucks much more on the wiki page
22:30 < fenn> is that even the same list as on mit's page?
22:30 < fenn> god i can't stand any more of this wiki stuff
22:31  * fenn used to like wikis :(
22:31 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure they went "copy-paste"
22:31 < fenn> yes, but, there is stuff i don't remember
22:32  * kanzure checks http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=MIT_Fab_Lab_item_list&action=history
22:33 < kanzure> sam slapped me on the wrist for making an anonymous edit on openfarmtech.org. i didn't even know i was anonymous
22:33 < kanzure> but apparently that's bad
22:33 < fenn> that was bad anyway, your huge copy-paste with no explanation
22:33 < fenn> don't do that
22:33 < kanzure> ok
22:35 < fenn> yeah there is stuff that wasn't on the list before; the luxo lamp for instance
22:37 < fenn> > Can you help me convince him that I wish him and skdb no ill will? I                               
22:37 < fenn> > wasn't around for whatever made him upset but he seems bound and                                   
22:37 < fenn> > determined to consider me an enemy.
22:37  * fenn wonders what you said
22:37 < kanzure> i thought we cleared that up
22:38 < kanzure> uh, well, i told him i was upset
22:39 < kanzure> mostly about toe-stepping and how they're ignoring us
22:39 < kanzure> if they want to do something different that's cool, but they don't
22:43 < ybit> i think my computer is on its last few volts of energy
22:44 < kanzure> i can't figure out how to traverse a tree with dulwich
22:44 < ybit> it has raped gmail over the past two days now, and it has only fetched 4.3gb
22:45 < ybit> and it has taken about two hours to convert 20% of KSRM to audio
22:45 < kanzure> http://www.diybioforums.com/projects/mccorkle_tomkins-tinch_microchannels.png
22:45 -!- phwooenix_ [n=chatzill@99-190-134-198.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009082707]"]
22:47 < kanzure> oops i meant to link to http://diybioforum.org/projects/mccorkle_tomkins-tinch_microchannels.png
22:52 < genehacker> what's that
22:53 < genehacker> is that for shrinky dink microfluidics
22:53 < genehacker> also about that monitor 360 thing, what sort of questions did they ask you?
22:53 < kanzure> this was months ago, i guess you could go look it up on the web if you want
22:53 < kanzure> it's for a laser cutter
22:54 < genehacker> oh
22:54 < genehacker> did it work out?
22:54 < kanzure> monitor 360 interviews: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_frm/thread/446cff057ec54d3d/f4e4507819776d10?lnk=gst&q=monitor+360#f4e4507819776d10
22:54 < genehacker> which was a month ago?
22:54 < kanzure> months ago
22:54 < kanzure> february?
22:55 < genehacker> ok
23:05 < kanzure> aha: http://diybioforum.org/projects/mccorkle_tomkins-tinch_microchannels.svg
23:17 < fenn> is that 'using computers to mimic biology' actually worth watching?
23:17 < fenn> or is it another trigger happy bryan moment
23:18 < ybit> bastards at ustream have made it near impossible to cipher through the garbled text to download the video
23:18 < fenn> but ybit aren't you permanently wired into the net?
23:19 < ybit> was planning on downloading and playing the audio at high speed tomorrow at work, but that probably isn't an option
23:19 < fenn> you should have ustream receptors implanted in your eyeballs
23:20 < ybit> heh, no thanks you can have adobe files flying through your body if you want though
23:20 < fenn> oo can it do silverlight too?
23:21 < ybit> of course, it was made my microsoft
23:21 < ybit> wtf is xulrunner-stub
23:22 < ybit> it's taking half of my system's resources
23:22 < ybit> the other half going to festival 
23:22 < fenn> appears to be something firefox uses
23:23 < fenn> to communicate between ff and thunderbird, or something
23:23 < ybit> why? i have only static pages loaded, damn this bloat, damn it to... to, uh..
23:23 < fenn> dll hell?
23:23 < ybit> yes! dll hell!
23:24 < ybit> i feel much better now
23:24 < fenn> this is intersting the vuzix VR920's come with magnetometer built in: http://www.pabr.org/wxhmd/doc/wxhmd.en.html
23:25 < fenn> not worth an extra $250 though
23:27 < fenn> i love his bit-banging video output
23:28 < ybit> that's kind of neat
23:29 < ybit> fenn: how often are you using your myvu now?
23:30  * fenn wonders whether to tell the truth..
23:30 < kanzure> i think i've been using it more
23:30 < ybit> :P
23:30 < fenn> i ran out the batteries today, supposedly it goes 4 hours
23:30 < fenn> i was playing this terrible video game "malice"
23:30 < kanzure> i still think there's a beaver in there somewhere, or something
23:31 < fenn> because another terrible video game also named "malice" has a cool soundtrack, which i have, and got sort of mixed up
23:31 < fenn> are you thinking "crash bandicoot"?
23:31 < kanzure> nope
23:31 < kanzure> but that, sir, is also a terrible video game
23:32 < ybit> diddy kong racing ftw
23:33 < ybit> wow, i'm out of the loop, i didn't realize they still make crash bandicoot games
23:33 < kanzure> my first exposure to crash was with spyro the dragon. crash bandicoot was a demo game on the same disc
23:34  * ybit hasn't played a videogame in ..how long Phreedom? grep the logs!
23:34 < fenn> batten the hatches! swab the lens!
23:34 < ybit> wow.. 7 months maybe?
23:35 < ybit> is this what happens when you go from geek to nerd?
23:35 < fenn> are gamers geeks?
23:35 < fenn> i mean it's correlated but not causative
23:35 < ybit> i'd classify them as such
23:35 < ybit> thinkgeek thinks so as well
23:35 < fenn> of course thinkgeek would like you to think you're a geek
23:36 < ybit> true, they would call operah a geek if they knew she would buy their stuff
23:36 < ybit> oprah*
23:36 < fenn> oprah is a geek.. her name is an anagram, or something
23:37 < kanzure> ophar?
23:37 < kanzure> i fail
23:37 < fenn> it's "harpo" spelled backwards :\
23:37 < kanzure> "Harpo (born Jan Harpo Torsten Svensson, 5 April 1950 in Bandhagen, Stockholm), is a Swedish pop star known under the stage name Harpo. ..."
23:38 < ybit> Arthur Adolph "Harpo" Marx (November 23, 1888 – September 28, 1964), born Adolph Arthur Marx, was the second-born of the Marx Brothers and a unique comic performer whose style was influenced by clown and pantomime traditions. 
23:38 < ybit> certainly geeky ;)
23:38 < ybit> harpo studio runs the oprah show or something like that
23:39 < kanzure> the what show?
23:39 < ybit> some show on t.v. that older women tend to watch
23:39 < ybit> minus katsmeow-afk 
23:41 < genehacker> harpo studies runs oprah?
23:41 < genehacker> never knew
23:41 < fenn> o teh joys of knowledge
23:41 < ybit> neither did and i still don't, it was a quick google scan 
23:41 < genehacker> the vuzix has a magnetometer?
23:42 < ybit> how cool is that
23:42 < fenn> <- not impressed
23:42 < genehacker> why?
23:42 < fenn> because it should have a fucking gumstix built in too!
23:42 < genehacker> what the heck does it use the magnetometer for?
23:42 < fenn> so you know what direction you're facing
23:43 < fenn> accelerometer only tells you which way is down
23:43 < genehacker> does it show north?
23:43 < genehacker> in the goggles?
23:43 < fenn> just think about it for a while
23:44 < fenn> ok got it?
23:44 < genehacker> well I thought vuzix only made stuff for ipods and things like that
23:44 < genehacker> I didn't know they were actually doing head tracking
23:44 < fenn> ah but this is the "VR" model
23:44 < genehacker> oh
23:44 < genehacker> no wonder
23:44 < fenn> it's totally lame, don't worry too much about it
23:44 < genehacker> I should have known
23:45 < genehacker> it's not totally lame if you get the head tracking output from it and hook it up to an RC plane with a camera on it actuated by a servo controlled by the head tracking output
23:46 < fenn> ok but why do they have to use HIDRAW and recompile the kernel just to read the tracking data :(
23:46 < genehacker> I don't know
23:46 < fenn> i mean that just screams serial port
23:46 < genehacker> because it's proprietary?
23:46  * fenn shrugs
23:47 < genehacker> anyway, something called a monotiltrotor would make a perfect delivery UAV
23:48 < genehacker> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFW7HEupkCM
23:48 < fenn> "The systems draws 1 A with no power optimizations. This is acceptable since nobody would want to spend more than a few minutes with two pulsed microwave RF transmitters, an overheating lithium battery and eye-straining optics strapped to their forehead anyway."
23:48 < genehacker> of course that's what it's being touted as
23:48 < genehacker> hahaha
23:49 < genehacker> how's the eyestrain on the myvu?
23:50 < fenn> i dunno, it's certainly not supposed to fit over your glasses so hard to say what it would be like if it werent so obnoxious
23:53 < fenn> man i just want to smack the industrial design department http://www.slashgear.com/kopin-golden-i-gen-2-wearable-computer-on-course-for-2010-launch-2257525/
23:54 < genehacker> why?
23:55 < fenn> big red blobs of plastic!
23:55 < fenn> and obnoxious logos, on my face!
23:55 < ybit> sed -e :a -e 's/<[^>]*>//g;/</N;//ba'
23:55 < ybit> now that's nice
23:55 < genehacker> that looks optimal for not falling off your head and not vibrating
23:56 < genehacker> not falling off your face is important in the applications where wearables are used
23:56 < genehacker> IE plant inspection
23:56 < genehacker> errr...
23:56 < fenn> uh huh whatever
23:56 < genehacker> are they used in plant inspection yet?
23:56 < genehacker> but yeah awful
23:56 < ybit> regex isn't difficult, and it's quite fun/useful.. 
23:57 < genehacker> wait that's a whole computer?
23:57 < fenn> it's the same processor as the beagleboard or gumstix
23:58 < genehacker> so not much power
23:58 < fenn> cortex can render 720p video.. good enuf
23:59 < genehacker> what do you mean by render?
23:59 < genehacker> is it enough to play doom?
23:59 < fenn> display on screen
23:59 < fenn> of course it can play doom.. wtf
23:59 < genehacker> ok