--- Day changed Wed Nov 25 2009
00:02 < fenn> http://www.cdiweb.com/PortalProductDetail.aspx?ProdId=397603&fmt=2
00:03 < fenn> cool they have 3 axis gyro on one chip now
00:04 < fenn> i wonder how long til 6DOF with magnetometers all one one chip
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00:07 < fenn> now thats an unusual disclaimer
00:07 < fenn> InvenSense sensors should not be used or sold in the development, storing, production and utilization of any conventional or mass-destructive weapons or any other weapons or life-threatening applications as well as in any other life-critical applications
00:07 < genehacker2> actually it's pretty typical
00:08 < kanzure> doesn't the military dump tons of money into electronics though?
00:09 < genehacker2> after all you don't want your superweapon detonating in mid-flight due to a chip failure now do you?
00:09 < genehacker2> yeah they do
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00:10 < genehacker2> military and critical applications(cars, airplanes, medical equipment) require chips to be made very consistently and have low failure rate
00:12 < genehacker2> of course critical applications tend to use redundant systems
00:12 < kanzure> fenn: so i tried to browse to /package/lego;master/data.yaml on web.py
00:12 < kanzure> but i forgot that '.' is converted to '_'
00:12 < kanzure> so it's looking for "data_yaml"
00:12 < kanzure> wonderful
00:21 < kanzure> oh well. fixed for now
00:24 < kanzure> stuff that doesn't work that should be easy to fix:
00:24 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data/yaml/796d52f299a4870e1552f2db40501036d2db6c4f
00:24 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data/796d52f299a4870e1552f2db40501036d2db6c4f
00:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data/796d52f299a4870e1552f2db40501036d2db6c4f/yaml (dunno what i want to have happen here)
00:26  * kanzure wonders where CIA went
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00:27 < kanzure> damn right
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01:31 < phwooenix> bryan you around?
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01:50 < kanzure> hi juul
01:50 < Juul> hellooo
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05:36  * katsmeow-afk submitsths one for the channel's curmudgeons : http://advertisingwizards.blogspot.com/2009/08/kgboobs.html
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10:14 < ybit> https://mozillalabs.com/blog/2009/08/bespin-0-4-stop-collaborate-and-code/ :: one vcs to rule them all
10:14 < ybit> off to work
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13:55 < kanzure> i have no idea how i got here or what any of this is: http://dbo.netmarble.net/main.asp
14:06 < kanzure> wtf is this character? 仮
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14:10 < superkuh> UTF-32, 004EEE,  encoded as:  E4 BB AE, name: CJK character Nelson  382
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14:12 < kanzure> superkuh: where did you look this up?
14:12 < superkuh> echo 仮 > what; uniname what 
14:12 < superkuh> http://billposer.org/Software/unidesc.html
14:13 < kanzure> uniutils - Tools for finding out what is in a Unicode file
14:13 < kanzure> neat. thank you
14:13 < superkuh> I was having terrible trouble filtering out unicode for text to speech output till I stumbled upon that.
14:14 < kanzure> why do you listen to pdf files?
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14:15 < superkuh> No everything is worth paying attention to. I can listen to papers without effort to skim for interesting bits.
14:15 < superkuh> It is a useful substitute for radio or music.
14:16 < kanzure> fenn: todd just sent out an email for speakers
14:16 < kanzure> "The presentations will be simulcast to a large online audience -
14:16 < kanzure> 10K-50K people ;)"
14:22 < fenn> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/仮
14:23 < fenn> "CJK character" is kinda useless
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14:24 < fenn> i thought 90% of tts research was japanese anyway
14:25 < kanzure> tts?
14:25 < fenn> text to speech
14:26 < kanzure> so we have 20min
14:27 < kanzure> i need to redo the presentation
14:27 < kanzure> what can we do with 20min?
14:27 < fenn> talk fast
14:28 < fenn> show pictures
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14:28 < kanzure> anyone in here ever been on a debate team? i hear you people can speak for hours on end without taking a single breath of air
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14:30 < kanzure> fenn: have you seen http://prezi.com/ ?
14:31 < fenn> i thought you hate stuff like that
14:33 < kanzure> i do
14:33 < kanzure> i also hate powerpoint as much as the next guy
14:33 < kanzure> hm todd only wants powerpoint or slidesharepoint
14:33 < kanzure> nevermind
14:35 < kanzure> fenn: should i tack on the agpl to web.py?
14:35 < fenn> ummm i dunno
14:35 < fenn> ask a lawyer
14:36 < kanzure> er i mean to ask, if i tack it on, will you be angry
14:37 < fenn> no
14:38 < kanzure> i wonder if drupal is under the agpl
14:38 < kanzure> in fact i don't remember specifically seeing any project under the agpl
14:39 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AGPL_web_applications
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14:41 < fenn> "the public whip" is by the freesteel guy
14:41 < fenn> why is that list so short?
14:42 < kanzure> heh
14:43 < kanzure> so skdb is GPL3 and skdb/web/* is AGPL3?
14:43 < kanzure> sound good?
14:43 < fenn> sure
14:44 < fenn> actually skdb should be GPL2+ because GPL3 is incompatible with 2 and i think that's stupid
14:44 < kanzure> what about AGPL?
14:45 < fenn> (this is why i said ask a lawyer)
14:45 < fenn> GPLv3 and AGPLv3 each include clauses (in section 13 of each license) that together achieve a form of mutual compatibility for the two licenses. 
14:45 < kanzure> i don't actually know any lawyers that have half a clue about this
14:45 < kanzure> right
14:45 < fenn> i think agpl3 is incompatible with gpl2 as well
14:45 < kanzure> "Switching the license to GNU AGPL 3 means we can now freely use any code licensed under GNU GPL 3, as well as licensed under 'GNU GPL 2 or later'."
14:46 < kanzure> http://forum.civicrm.org/index.php?topic=1710.0
14:46 < fenn> well that's nice
14:46 < fenn> it doesn't mean agpl3 is compatible with gpl2 though
14:46 < kanzure> it's compatible with gpl2+ only. hrm
14:47 < kanzure> we can always fix this later i think
14:47 < kanzure> since when you put a license on a project, you still can mess with the copyright later
14:54 < fenn> yeah as long as there aren't too many contributors
14:54 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 2539428 /web/ (LICENSE web.py): web.py is now distributed under the AGPL3 license
14:54 < kanzure> ok well there's about all of 1 contributor on web.py
14:55 < kanzure> jerkfaces :(
14:56 < kanzure> fenn: also i'd like to get a bug/issue tracker, is there one that works on flatfiles? maybe one that we can just throw into the git repository?
14:56 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue_tracking_systems
14:56 < kanzure> debbugs?
14:57 < fenn> bugs everywhere
14:58 < kanzure> is that the name of a system?
14:58 < fenn> yeah
14:58 < fenn> debbugs sucks balls, even for debian
14:58 < kanzure> http://bugseverywhere.org/be/show/HomePage
14:58 < kanzure> "Bugs Everywhere is a “distributed bugtracker”, designed to complement distributed revision control systems." okie dokie
14:58 < kanzure> well that was easy
14:58 < fenn> you're welcome
15:00 < kanzure> "# Steve Losh is working on a Cherry Py interface."
15:02 < fenn> is ~45MB/s normal for modern hard drives?
15:02 < kanzure> speaking of bugs.. ImportError: cannot import name _version
15:04 < kanzure> ah have to run make first
15:04 < fenn> can't you just install a deb?
15:05 < fenn> apt-get install bugs-everywhere
15:05 < kanzure> yes but on their site they said something about the .deb lagging significantly behind development
15:06 < fenn> sfw
15:06 < fenn> all that really matters is it's backward compatible
15:06 < fenn> (is it?)
15:07 < fenn> "it may lag behind our bzr repository."
15:07 < fenn> that is practically a tautology
15:07 < kanzure> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?package=bugs-everywhere
15:07 < kanzure> "Please package r327 2009-07-23 - Debian carries r217 from 2008-11-14"
15:07  * fenn shrugs
15:08 < kanzure> doesn't look like anyone has complained loudly about incompatibilities
15:08 < kanzure> machine name: duarte.debian.org
15:08 < kanzure> how are these boxes named anyway
15:08 < fenn> anarchists i think
15:09 < kanzure> do you know how to use be?
15:09 < fenn> no
15:09 < fenn> 'be new "its broken"'
15:09 < kanzure> gee thanks
15:10 < fenn> git add .be or whatever its called
15:10 < kanzure> are you sure? because "be help" lists 'be commit'
15:10 < kanzure> so does it commit itself or do we have to git add .be ourselves?
15:10 < fenn> why would it have its own commit command?
15:10 < kanzure> oh shit
15:10 < fenn> are you sure it's not "comment" and you just read it wrong?
15:11 < kanzure> well apparently it commits based on whatever repo you're using
15:11 < kanzure> i just committed
15:11 < kanzure> how do i revert? without making a spurious "this reverts blah blah blah"
15:11 < fenn> you did 'be commit'?
15:11  * kanzure nods
15:11 < kanzure> git reset --soft HEAD^ i think
15:12 < fenn> same way as usual.. git rebase onto blah master
15:12 < fenn> reset just undoes staged changes
15:12 < kanzure> no git reset did the trick for me
15:12 < kanzure> it removed a commit from my log
15:13 < fenn> um. it's not supposed to do that
15:13 < kanzure> git reset --soft HEAD^ forgot something in your last commit? That's easy to fix. Undo your last commit, but keep the changes in the staging area for editing.
15:13 < fenn> or it could be i dont know what the fuck i'm talking about
15:14 < fenn> i wish there were an ascii-art "wtf did i just do" diagram thingy
15:15 < fenn> like gitk
15:15 < fenn> except gitk doesn't show the right stuff
15:18 < kanzure> so, i've never filed bug reports on a common basis
15:18 < kanzure> what gets to be counted as a bug?
15:18 < fenn> whatever you want
15:18 < kanzure> stuff that doesn't work that you know doesn't work just as you commit some code?
15:18 < fenn> it probably makes more sense to write that as a #TODO
15:18 < kanzure> ok
15:19 < kanzure> what's the sun doing in my face. it's like 3 in the afternoon
15:19 < fenn> it's almost december
15:22 < fenn> hm i only have A-B from your server
15:22 < fenn> oh n/m
15:24 < kanzure> huh?
15:24 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 5d42f3d / (11 files in 8 dirs): started to keep track of bugs with bugseverywhere
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15:32 < fenn> i dont get why they are making led arrays into contacts.. shouldnt they do a virtual retinal display?
15:32 < fenn> i.e. one or three lasers with mems mirror that focus on the retina
15:34 < fenn> oh. /me reads the next page of the article
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15:44 < fenn> spiffy: We then submerge the plastic lens substrate in a liquid medium and flow the collection of microcomponents over it. The binding sites are cut to match the geometries of the individual parts so that a triangular component finds a triangular well
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15:54 < kanzure> what's the likelihood of a triangular component flowing past a triangular cutout? er, cut-in
15:55 < kanzure> i guess it depends on whether or not they are using a high flow rate or what
15:56 < QuantumG> A virus walks into a bar.  The bartender says "we don't serve viruses in this bar".  The virus replaces the bartender and says "well now we do". - Brian Malow
16:07 < kanzure> i don't get it
16:07 < kanzure> a virus doesn't replace a computer
16:11 < QuantumG> you have to have a pedestrian understanding of cell machinery to think its funny
16:12 < QuantumG> http://fora.tv/2009/11/08/Science_Laughs_Science_Comedian_Brian_Malow   <- many others
16:15 < kanzure> do'h. cherrypy allows .'s in URIs when passed to an object's default() method 
16:15 < kanzure> time to delete this other bullshit code..
16:39 < fenn> i want to rapid-fire through a bunch of pictures of open source hardware projects for the h+ talk; i've compiled a list of interesting things here: http://pastebin.ca/1687387
16:40 < fenn> if anyone wants to help by picking one or two representative (and maximally visually appealing) pictures of each of those, and throwing it in a folder somewhere or just pastebinning the url, that'd be sweet
16:40 < fenn> or if not, that's ok too. just thought i might harness some idleness
16:41 < fenn> and feel free to come up with more ideas, that's just all i could think of atm
16:42 < fenn> actually.. ignore previous pastebin, go here instead and convert lines to url's  http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb_presentation
16:54 < ybit_> i can lend you two some ritalin and both of you can talk as fast as aubrey ;)
16:55 < ybit_> coolest presentation software for code ever: http://aminus.net/wiki/Jitter
16:55 < ybit_> and i also like this: http://aminus.net/wiki/Okapi
16:57 < ybit_> fumanchu was using it in his talk @ pycon: http://blip.tv/file/1957163/
17:00 < fenn> how nice of them to actually provide a download link
17:15 < fenn> halfway through my eyes started to glaze over ("this is the part where i hit you if you're not really awake" heh)
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17:21 < kanzure> fenn: be sure to steal pictures from projects listed on http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design
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17:23 < fenn> oh yeah, i remember that bulletin board from hell picture
17:25 < fenn> ah the actual list is way down at the bottom
17:25 < fenn> 598 total :\
17:27 < kanzure> hm i wonder why i show up in the p2p designer network
17:28 < fenn> well its not like anyone else on that page has done anything worth mentioning
17:28 < kanzure> oh but paul's written a lot
17:28 < kanzure> and stuff
17:28 < kanzure> !
17:28 < QuantumG> so it's accurate ;)
17:59 < ybit_> 1?
18:09 < fenn> 1 what?
18:10 < ybit_> i thought maybe we should add a 1 after the excamation point
18:11 < ybit_> Thu Dec 03  	# 2749  	Depart NASHVILLE TN (BNA) at 8:25 AM
18:11 < ybit_> Arrive in AUSTIN TX (AUS) at 10:50 AM 
18:12 < kanzure> ybit_: ok i'll be picking you up then
18:15 < ybit_> that's strange __init__.py wasn't in web/templates
18:16 < ybit_> did someone commit with it left out?
18:16 -!- ybit_ is now known as ybit
18:17 < ybit> hmm, and PackageIndex.py is missing
18:18 < kanzure> PackageIndex.py should be empty
18:18 < ybit> i thouched those files
18:19 < ybit> here's the error now: http://pastebin.com/m860ef08
18:19 < kanzure> ybit: run the .sh in that directory
18:19 < ybit> brb, food is about to burn
18:20 < fenn> burn baby burn
18:20 < kanzure> there, i fixed it (but you should just run the .sh anyway)
18:22 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/burnbabyburn.jpg
18:22 < kanzure> i don't know what i'm looking at
18:23 < kanzure> this is _not_ a burning baby >:(
18:23 < fenn> me either but it's cool as hell
18:23 < ybit> hell isn't cool, so what does that say about the picture?
18:23 < ybit> where are my comedy drums?
18:24 < kanzure> aren't you supposed to be cooking instead of making bad jokes?
18:24 < kanzure> http://instantrimshot.com/
18:24 < fenn> brap poo
18:25 < fenn> how do i align a 8mm square camera module
18:28 < ybit> kanzure: what'd you change the line 138 in web.py to?
18:28 < ybit> fenn: #photography?
18:28 < ybit> er, #photogeeks
18:28 < kanzure> ybit: if not os.path.exists("valid_top_level_domains"): os.system("./update_valid_tlds.sh") #because some people are too lazy
18:29 < ybit> lazy? why are you calling fenn lazy? 
18:29 < kanzure> i believe it was you who didn't run the .sh
18:30 < ybit> yay, more errors
18:30 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/m4f8b9b2b
18:31 < kanzure> templates/__init__.py is wrong
18:31 < kanzure> in their put stuff like this:
18:31 < kanzure> from PackageIndex import PackageIndex
18:31 < kanzure> from PackageView import PackageView etc.
18:32 < ybit> can you commit or let me browse what you have?\
18:33 < ybit>   File "/home/heath/projects/skdb/web/templates/__init__.py", line 1, in <module>
18:33 < ybit>     from PackageIndex import PackageIndex
18:33 < ybit> ImportError: cannot import name PackageIndex
18:34 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 5f2ab63 /.be/bugs/ (3 files in 3 dirs): added all of the templates again (just in case)
18:35 < kanzure> what's in your web/templates/ dir?
18:35 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/m29b45448
18:35 < kanzure> looks right to me
18:37 < ybit> the reason it can't "import name PackageIndex" is because there isn't PackageIndex in PackageIndex
18:37 < ybit> wtf happened to my templates
18:38 < kanzure> go into PackageIndex.tmpl and type some random crap
18:38 < kanzure> then do: cheetah compile PackageIndex
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19:01 < kanzure> hey jasonwohlfahrt 
19:12 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/m50753605
19:14 < ybit> kanzure: are you trying to subclass a module?
19:25 < ybit> fenn, kanzure: if you feel like your presentation is being rushed, maybe get marcin pitch in on a lunchtime breakout session? 
19:25 < ybit> or just let him use 5 and let others ask questions during the lbs
19:25 < fenn> i kind of need marcin to talk to give background to skdb
19:26  * kanzure nods
19:26 < kanzure> ybit: no
19:26 < fenn> i still dont actually have an outline or anything
19:27 < fenn> but it goes something like this:
19:27 < kanzure> what happened to the wiki page
19:27 < fenn> we're getting screwed, everything sucks.. how about we make our own stuff? (cue FeF)
19:27 < fenn> ok we got all this stuff, but it's too much! it's scrambled egg all over the internet, drawn in crayon
19:27 < fenn> (cue drawings in crayon)
19:28 < fenn> then explain debian, Free software, how it ought to work
19:28 < fenn> then explain what we've done so far
19:28 < kanzure> marginalized transhumans too
19:29 < fenn> uh. work transhumanist angle int there somewhere yeah
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19:29 < fenn> perhaps in 'everything sucks' section
19:29 < fenn> lulz
19:29 < kanzure> "YOU suck"
19:30 < fenn> can we add a live webcam feed to the presentation? :P
19:30 < fenn> oh i havent added any open transhumanist crap to the list yet
19:31 < fenn> openeeg, openrtms, etc
19:31 < kanzure> because you're a terrible person
19:31 < fenn> it's because i don't take any of them seriously :(
19:31 < kanzure> it's ok, they don't take themselves seriously either
19:31 < kanzure> openprosthetics
19:32 < fenn> are there any brain scanning projects that dont suck and actually publish data?
19:33 < fenn> like todd's diamond knife thing, but that's all locked up in academia
19:33 < ybit> you could ask the openeeg list if someone will share some data
19:33 < fenn> not what i mean
19:33 < fenn> you may have noticed that a lot of academic papers about 'some magic diy device' get published, but have no accompanying source code or cad files
19:34 < fenn> so you can't actually make the damn thing even if you wanted
19:34 < kanzure> i have a rip of the allenbraininstitute project's data set
19:34 < kanzure> does that count?
19:34 < kanzure> i also parsed the data and extracted a list of genes in the brain
19:34 < fenn> "we programmed a 486 personal computer to emit signals on the parallel port..."
19:35 < fenn> not particularly interested in data sets
19:35 < kanzure> http://github.com/kanzure/brain/tree/master/allenbraininstitute/
19:35 < kanzure> see brain_genes.yaml
19:35 < fenn> i know you think everything is data, but that's not the focus of skdb
19:36 < kanzure> you asked if there was a brain scanning project that published data
19:36 < fenn> brain engineering is like 20 years in the future, when it actually becomes engineering and not science
19:36 < fenn> gah are you being dense on purpose
19:36 < fenn> i'm talking about the hardware
19:36 < fenn> microkeratomes
19:37 < ybit> that was dumb question earlier 19:14 < ybit> kanzure: are you trying to subclass a module? 
19:37 < ybit> why don't you people break out the trout every once in awhile
19:37 < ybit> ..after looking at the code
19:37 < fenn> i am too reactive, usually don't realize when i'm being led up the wrong tree
19:38 < kanzure> fenn: eugen might have something. http://web.archive.org/web/20080203123957/http://minduploading.org/research.html
19:38 < fenn> heh i was looking for that
19:39 < fenn> ok not that in particular
19:39 < fenn> i remember some expensive looking microkeratome+microscope they had made
19:39 < ybit> "s. We design a web platform where people can buy votes with a
19:39 < kanzure> yeah me too
19:39 < ybit> credit card, "
19:39 < ybit> i wouldn't like that
19:39 < kanzure> ybit: sam is talking out of his ass anyway
19:41 < fenn> oh you mean Capitalism 2.0
19:41 < fenn> "power to the people! (with money)"
19:41 < kanzure> sam's all about making up "funding models" now
19:41 < kanzure> too bad nobody does anything..
19:48 < ybit> omg, Tier 1 - Innovators is sold out, i didn't believe it at first, but it's true! <b>Sold Out</b>
19:49 < ybit> speaking of doing things
19:49 < ybit> what's with the error pasted above?
19:49 < kanzure> you have your templates screwed up
19:54 < fenn> why do y'all's python always crash at the end of the error log?
19:54 < fenn> *** glibc detected *** /usr/bin/python: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x0a76b9b8 ***
19:54 < fenn> it's not supposed to do that
19:54 < kanzure> mine doesn't
19:55 < kanzure> i think it used to?
19:56  * ybit doesn't see any templates at http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/web/templates/
19:57 < kanzure> you should be pulling from http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb.git
20:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data.yaml/edit
20:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master2/data.yaml/edit
20:05 < kanzure> lookie! it knows you're bullshit :)
20:06 < kanzure> of course, http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego/data.yaml/edit also works
20:06 < kanzure> the downside is that the code is a mess
20:06 < kanzure> the upside is that i now have pretty URLs :)
20:08 < fenn> you could do a try/except to catch the bad branch error and give a decent error report
20:08 < fenn> anyway gratz on figuring it out
20:09 < fenn> can you write unit tests for cherrypy stuff?
20:09 < fenn> like 'make sure it doesnt screw up'
20:10 < kanzure> looks like you haven't been reading the code
20:10 < kanzure> yes
20:10 < fenn> i havent looked at the code at all, i'm terrified
20:11 < kanzure> stay that way until the site works
20:12 < fenn> equations like "C = C_s + C_L + C_F" are only marginally better than hieroglyphics...
20:12 < fenn> what's wrong with just saying "cost = scrap + labor + foundry-labor"
20:12 < fenn> don't people know pointers are evil
20:14 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 3b2fa63 / (5 files in 5 dirs): web.py now partly does urls the way they should be done
20:15 < kanzure> one of the problems right now is that "virtual_path" is parsed in different functions as cherrypy goes down the object tree
20:15 < kanzure> in FileViewer i'm using self.sha and so on, while in other classes/methods i'm parsing the virtual_path
20:15 < kanzure> anyway, just a discrepancy that might confuse people
20:15 < kanzure> so eventually that should be fixed too
20:16 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 970d1c1 /.be/bugs/84de54b3-d1c8-437b-9c61-abdee2e26251/values: FileViewer bug report- fix this and you can save some confusion from us all
20:16 < ybit> a quote from a conversation and myself: >> Speaking of assholes, I read somewhere that you were a supreme asshole
20:16 < ybit> >> dictator of some sort, that no one stays there because of it... I read
20:16 < ybit> >> that on some blog oh so many weeks ago, and I was curious what you had
20:16 < ybit> >> to say.. obviously you aren't going to confess to dickhood. And I'm
20:16 < ybit> >> not pointing fingers at you or anyone, heck you're the only person
20:16 < ybit> >> I've communicated to (from my knowledge) that's associated with what's
20:16 < ybit> >> going on there.. I'm just curious and I'm also blunt if you haven't
20:16 < ybit> >> noticed. :-)
20:16 < ybit> >
20:16 < fenn> FileViewer represents a specific file on a specific branch? or a generic reference to a path?
20:16 < ybit> > I'd just say that I want to get stuff done. When people came and wanted to
20:16 < ybit> > freeload, I kicked them out. This blew up majorly, because I'm not the best
20:16 < ybit> > at PR. Some wanted to turn this into a hippie commune, so I responded that I
20:16 < ybit> > will run it like a lab. They had different ideas. And I run dis shit.
20:17 < kanzure> fenn: generic reference to a path, at any SHA, any branch
20:17 < ybit> >
20:17 < ybit> > In this game, it's extremely difficult to find qualified collaborators. This
20:17 < ybit> > is what I found through all of this past year's drama. To avoid unlarity on
20:17 < ybit> > expectations, we now have people here under the format of Dedicated Project
20:17 < ybit> > Visits or Lifetime Investors. I'll be blogging soon on the latter.
20:17 < ybit> >
20:17 < ybit> > This is a much longer discussion, it's quite intriguing indeed - because it
20:17 < ybit> > shows interesting insights on peoples' motivations. I can tell you more when
20:17 < ybit> > we meet if you like.
20:17 < kanzure> yawn
20:17 < kanzure> marcin?
20:17 < ybit> +with marcine and myself
20:17 < ybit> yeah
20:18 < kanzure> fenn: FileViewer is not stored between page reloads
20:18 < fenn> drawma is an unfortunate fact of life
20:18 < kanzure> so the dulwich.repo.Repo object is reinitialized each time
20:18 < kanzure> i don't think this is a problem though
20:18 < fenn> 'at any SHA' doesn't make sense to me.. isn't a SHA a specific commit?
20:18 < ybit> what's with git ignoring my changes to /templates 
20:18 < kanzure> fenn: er, sorry
20:19 < kanzure> fenn: yes, but objects are also referenced by SHAs
20:19 < kanzure> so you can say "blah.txt" "when it was this SHA"
20:19 < kanzure> er
20:19 < fenn> please elaborate.. what is an object
20:19 < kanzure> there are three items in git: trees, commits, and blobs
20:19 < kanzure> s/object/blob/
20:19 < fenn> ok
20:19 < kanzure> there are multiple versions of a file
20:19 < fenn> when i commit to a local repo, it makes a blob, right?
20:19 < kanzure> you can give a blob's SHA, and dulwich will bring up the file at that time
20:19 < kanzure> yes
20:20 < kanzure> and a "commit" object
20:20 < fenn> when i push multiple commits to a remote repo, it makes one blob, right?
20:20 < kanzure> i don't know
20:20 < kanzure> this isn't important.. it's just how i'm describing it to you
20:20 < kanzure> dulwich gives you an SHA with a filename
20:20 < fenn> ok fine.. i am just fuzzy on git internals
20:21 < kanzure> and that SHA returns a dulwich.objects.Blob object when you do a dulwich.repo.Repo.get_object(that_value) on it
20:21 < kanzure> er
20:21 < kanzure> s/that_value/SHA/
20:21 < fenn> so it's just a hash lookup
20:22 < kanzure> yes
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20:22 < fenn> but a blob can contain multiple files, correct?
20:22 < kanzure> i dunno
20:22 < fenn> well, a commit can, so, yeah
20:23 < fenn> sorry if i'm distracting you needlessly
20:23 < kanzure> hey so uh
20:23 < kanzure> if an anonymous user makes a new branch
20:23 < kanzure> when they edit a file
20:23 < kanzure> how do they edit their edit?
20:23 < kanzure> does it make yet another branch?
20:24 < ybit> feel free to paste a link to the full text of "Methods in Neuronal Modeling - 2nd Edition: From Ions to Networks" or "Biophysics of Computation: Information Processing in Single Neurons"
20:24 < fenn> edit their edit?
20:24 < kanzure> fenn: if they press "save" and then come back a day later
20:24 < fenn> we don't store edit objects
20:24 < kanzure> and update it again
20:24 < kanzure> it will make yet another branch
20:24 < fenn> we use a vcs
20:24 < kanzure> and then you have thousands of anonymous branches..
20:25 < kanzure> even if it was just one anon
20:25 < fenn> i see
20:25 < fenn> default behavior will be world-writable
20:25 < fenn> so they have no reason to fork
20:26 < fenn> if you want to jealously guard your changes, you have to log in
20:26 < kanzure> yesh but what if it's the "screw.git" package?
20:26 < kanzure> and it's the "master" branch
20:26 < fenn> no point in attributing responsibility/credit to "anonymous"
20:26 < kanzure> they make a change and it makes a new branch
20:26 < kanzure> then they look at their change and say, "hey let's edit it again"
20:26 < fenn> and? anyone can edit that branch
20:26 < kanzure> and they edit their new branch
20:26 < fenn> and it stays on that branch
20:26 < kanzure> this would create yet another branch..
20:27 < kanzure> why would it?
20:27 < kanzure> so only "master" is non-world-writable?
20:27 < fenn> no, you only fork if you can't edit the existing branch (or some other reason)
20:27 < fenn> correct
20:27 < kanzure> ok, so anonymous users can edit any branch created by another anonymous user
20:27 < kanzure> ok i like it
20:27 < kanzure> er scratch what i just said
20:27 < fenn> no, that's right
20:28 < kanzure> yes but it's easier to remember "only master is non-world-writable"
20:28 < fenn> but that's not necessarily true
20:28 < kanzure> it's also easier to implement for now :)
20:28 < fenn> we will want other non-open branches
20:28 < kanzure> ok
20:28 < kanzure> how will we mark them as such though
20:28 < kanzure> how about a ".whateversitename" file that lists branches that are non-world-writable?
20:28 < fenn> some global config file? ugh
20:29 < fenn> right
20:29 < fenn> i havent thought all that through yet
20:29 < kanzure> and it would either be in "master" (for everything else" or one would appear in each branch? dunno
20:29 < kanzure> ok please do so while i hack at web.py some more :)
20:29 < fenn> all that access control stuff gives me the willies
20:29 < fenn> no i'm busy catching up on email and testing keyboard stuff
20:30 < kanzure> i'm hungry
20:30 < fenn> there's food in the fridge
20:30 < kanzure> apparently salad doesn't fill the stomach
20:30 < fenn> lots of butter in the lentils
20:30 < kanzure> ugh
20:30 < fenn> fine eat a we microwaved hambooger
20:30 < fenn> wet*
20:32  * katsmeow-afk ponders keelhauling a operating microwave
20:33 < ybit> fenn, kanzure: why do you not use tags in your git commits?
20:40 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: is that a nautical term?
20:41 < fenn> ybit: what are tags for exactly?
20:41 < ybit> versioning
20:42 < fenn> how do you prevent version collisions?
20:42 < ybit> for me, i can say 'oh' this version was working just fine, let's go back there where it was crashing continually
20:42 < fenn> like say we both tag someting 1.0 and then try to merge
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20:42 < ybit> probably through sha
20:43 < ybit> specifics i don't know, working on that..
20:44 < fenn> what the emc people do is make a branch for each minor version, then they can apply bug fixes to that branch without adding new bugs
20:44 < fenn> so you have 1.1 branch with a commit tagged 1.0.4
20:44 < fenn> er, 1.1.4 
20:45 < fenn> so the $100 laptop has come and gone: http://www.liliputing.com/2009/11/menq-easypc-e790-80-and-still-barely-worth-it.html
20:58 < fenn> BY OPENING THIS CARDBOARD BOX, YOU AGREE NOT TO USE THIS MACHINE TO MAKE OTHER FABRICATION MACHINES THAT SELF-REPLICATE!
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21:12 < katsmeow-afk> ok,, then make it make other macines that make other machines, *before* you open it
21:13 < fenn> it's like a fortune cookie.. it only counts if you get the fortune out without breaking the cookie
21:14 < fenn> "think inside the box"
21:19 < QuantumG> just make machines that require human intervention to replicate.. as I expect that's all you can do anyway
21:23 < fenn> no, the context was about existing rapid fabrication machine manufacturers getting worried about their customer base taking over their market
21:23 < fenn> not grey goo wankery
21:25 < QuantumG> ya, so pick the right terminology :)
21:26 < QuantumG> I expect anything other than "don't make machines that compete with our machines in the marketplace of fabrication machines" will fail to stand up in court.. and even that will be seen as an antitrust issue
21:26 < QuantumG> kinda reminds me of the BitKeeper fiasco
21:26 < ybit> i tend to wrap my fortune cookie pieces in tape and claim schrodinger's equation 
21:29 < katsmeow-afk> "it's in there, but if you look it likely will not be"
21:29 < ybit> and most of my fortunes come true too "you will have to make a decision soon" "omfg it's right, i don't know if i should pay my ticket or run' 
21:32 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: it changes, the point is uncertainty, i've heard the story told that the cat has poison in the box and you don't know it's alive or dead until you look... and so in the fortune cookie scenario, i'm going for "is the cookie broken or not"
21:34 < fenn> i never really understood whether quantum mechanics was actually any more complex than "you don't know it's alive or dead until you look"
21:35 < fenn> and then stuff like this comes along http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser
21:36  * katsmeow-afk is pondering trying to tear open a puter psu to make the 3.3v and 12v in series to give 15.3v
21:36 < fenn> no need to tear it open
21:37 < fenn> but if you have it open already, "just" adjust the voltage pot?
21:37 < katsmeow-afk> sure there is, the 3.3v and 12v share gnd, they can't be series without floating one of the suplies
21:37 < fenn> can you separate the grounds without redesigning the PSU?
21:38 < katsmeow-afk> umm, to push the 12v to 13.6 is 13% overvolting it,, is that so good?
21:38 < katsmeow-afk> sure cut traces, lift wires
21:38 < fenn> meh i'd look for a wall wart..
21:38 < katsmeow-afk> a 30amp wall wart?
21:38 < katsmeow-afk> got one in mind?
21:38 < fenn> what needs 30 amps at 15.3V?
21:38 < katsmeow-afk> ups battery charger
21:39 < fenn> why does it have to be 13% over?
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21:39 < katsmeow-afk> 12v x 1.13 = 13.6
21:40 -!- Netsplit over, joins: bct, ybit, QuantumG, CIA-33, kardan
21:40 < fenn> um. that doesn't answer the question
21:41 < katsmeow-afk> lead acid charges to 13.6, the psu puts out 12v, among other things,, to reach 13.6 on the 12v output,i'd haveto crank it 13% over volt
21:41 < katsmeow-afk> i doubt any will adjust that far
21:41 < katsmeow-afk> and i dunno it wold be healthy forit
21:42 < fenn> i would just use two psu's
21:42 < fenn> you still have to open one of them to float the ground
21:43 < katsmeow-afk> i have 3 i floated to series the 5v
21:43 < fenn> that's probably better since they're balanced
21:43 < katsmeow-afk> it's sorta bad capital useage
21:43 < fenn> PSU's are a natural resource
21:43 < katsmeow-afk> but a ~$20 natural resource
21:44 < fenn> you're doing it wrong
21:44 < katsmeow-afk> i usually am :-/
22:12 < kanzure> ybit: did you get the templates working?
22:13 < kanzure> fenn: do you really think the extended verbose discussions going on on the replab list will actually lead to a good idea?
22:13 < fenn> uh.. i dunno
22:13 < kanzure> originally our idea was to put in a minimal amount of information and then figure out good targets for making stuff
22:13 < kanzure> i mean, good projects to start with
22:14 < fenn> restate in the form of an answer please
22:14 < kanzure> one of us should suggest "let's put in some fundamental information and then see what comes out"
22:14 < kanzure> if we do this then we're also working on the infrastructure/system anyway in the process
22:14 < kanzure> and we don't make shitty one-off never-will-be-used-again projects
22:15 < fenn> what one-off projects are you talking about? i havent totally caught up yet
22:16 < kanzure> nothing in particular
22:16 < fenn> like the 9-axis hydraulic robot?
22:21 < ybit> kanzure: yes
22:23  * ybit needs more visuals for what's going on in the background during python run_web.py
22:23 < ybit> starting cherrypy webserver
22:23 < ybit> ..doesn't tell me much
22:23 < ybit> there is one warning: Compiling PackageIndex.tmpl -> PackageIndex.py (backup PackageIndex.py.bak)
22:24 < ybit> /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/Cheetah-2.2.2-py2.5-linux-i686.egg/Cheetah/Compiler.py:1568: UserWarning: You supplied an empty string for the source! warnings.warn("You supplied an empty string for the source!", )
22:31 < ybit> hah, it would help if i would go to the correct port :P
22:32  * ybit didn't realized it had changed to 8081
22:32 < ybit> s/realized/[blah]
22:32  * fenn mumbles something about adding version numbers to the header
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22:41 < fenn> this guy viktor has some neat ideas
22:41 < fenn> n-fold parallel laser spiral lamination rapid prototyping! that's a mouthful
22:49 < kanzure> hey jasonwohlfahrt 
22:50 < kanzure> hm my head hurts
22:55 < kanzure> be help depend
22:55 < kanzure> it cites a nature.com paper? hehe
22:55 < kanzure> "The "|--" symbol in the repair-mode output is inspired by the
22:55 < kanzure> "negative feedback" arrow common in biochemistry.  See, for example http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7223/images/nature07513-f5.0.jpg
22:58 < fenn> is "inhibits" semantically equivalent to XOR?
23:03 < kanzure> which way are you asking
23:04 < kanzure> are you trying to understand "inhibits"? or trying to explain a XOR
23:04 < kanzure> it's ok if you're going XOR->inhibits i think
23:06 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 6970f4c / (7 files in 7 dirs): lots of tiny and general bug reports
23:13 < kanzure> fenn: what was that python/yaml-based presentation generator? where you just typed an outline, it would create the slides, headings, etc., and even randomly insert images from google image search results?
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23:37 < ybit> kanzure: what version of be did you use?
23:38 < kanzure> ybit: 330
23:39 < kanzure> r330, i mean
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23:54 < ybit> is this it? "yml2tex is a Python script which will generate a LaTeX Beamer presentation out of a YAML file."  http://code.google.com/p/yml2tex/ and what latexbeamer is: http://latex-beamer.sourceforge.net/
23:57 < kanzure> no but that's very similar