--- Day changed Mon Nov 30 2009
00:03 -!- tim_schmidt [n=tim@adsl-75-5-231-21.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
00:19 < neodextrose> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427366.100-shrinktofit-spacesuit-eases-astronauts-workload.html
00:19 < neodextrose> WEARABLES IN SPACE
00:22 < fenn> a "12 strikes and you're out" bot
00:23 < kanzure> fenn: is it on fennetic.net somewhere?
00:23 < fenn> it = what?
00:24 < kanzure> appleseed
00:24 < fenn> no
00:24 < kanzure> well that's useless
00:24 < fenn> fennetic.net is adl anyway
00:24 < kanzure> so?
00:24 < kanzure> it has big pipes
00:24 < fenn> sorry it's so frigging hard to walk across the room
00:24 < kanzure> wah
00:25 < kanzure> i'm getting up but i want you to know it's for the crackers only
00:27 < neodextrose> if it's hard to walk across the room then make the room smaller
00:30 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
00:31 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:42 < kanzure> http://ymacs.org/
00:44 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
00:50 < kanzure> http://gpl.internetconnection.net/vi/
01:00 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:01 -!- neodextrose [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-34-193.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:14 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:17 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-42-33.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:01 < QuantumG> ah shit
03:01 < QuantumG> Ralph Merkle replied:
03:01 < QuantumG> Check out http://www.youtube.com/singularityu
03:01 < QuantumG> Singularity University (www.singularityu.org) is fun!
03:01 < QuantumG> there goes a good researcher to religion
06:01 -!- zignig [n=zignig@the.interthingy.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:01 < zignig> greetings earthlings.
06:17 < zignig> hmmm , gmt+8 must be snoozy time for the rest of the skdb crew ....
06:17 < zignig> :)
06:17 -!- zignig [n=zignig@the.interthingy.com] has quit ["leaving"]
06:51 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-42-33.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
07:01 -!- flamt_ [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1178020538.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:02 -!- flamt [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1242454461.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
07:17 -!- chizu [n=chizu@osuosl/staff/chizu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
07:17 -!- chizu [n=chizu@osuosl/staff/chizu] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:06 -!- neodextrose [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-67-207.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:09 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:16 -!- danielfalck [n=chatzill@pool-71-111-79-148.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102134505]"]
08:17 -!- danielfalck [n=chatzill@pool-71-111-79-148.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:48 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
09:11 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-237-86.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:18 -!- neodextrose [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-67-207.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
09:41 < ybit> ~/names
09:43 < ybit> buenos dias amigos
09:43 < ybit> pythonocc successfully compiled while i slept the night away
09:44 < ybit> so maybe we'll have a .deb by the end of the day
09:45 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-237-86.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
09:46 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
09:49 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:59 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:08 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-54-30.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:24 < genehacker> is there a name for the reverse of projection mapping?
10:25 < genehacker> err... projection mapping might not be the right word
12:13 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:21 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:21 -!- ybit_ [i=48920b85@gateway/web/freenode/x-pimsslbnhgchundi] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:21 < ybit_> kanzure: could you try getting in touch with jennifer today?
12:27 < ybit_> ..or ashlee
12:33 -!- ybit_ [i=48920b85@gateway/web/freenode/x-pimsslbnhgchundi] has quit ["Page closed"]
12:45 < kanzure> ybit: no. their phone system sucks.
12:46 < kanzure> http://www.alankennington.com/philo/eng.html
12:49 < kanzure> http://openhardware.eventbrite.com/
13:05 < genehacker> what's this alan kennington stuff?
13:07 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:14 < fenn> alan kennington is of the "ugly as possible URL" school of thought
13:33 < kanzure> example?
13:33 < kanzure> i think i met alan in 2006
13:33 < kanzure> er, on the net
13:33 < fenn> http://www.alankennington.com/philo/eng.html?$Version=1&$Path=\"/\"&$Domain=\".alankennington.com\"
13:33 < kanzure> oh shit
13:34 < fenn> this was after the 'human test' which involved clicking on a link
13:34 < kanzure> so you're definitely a human now, fenn :)
13:34 < kanzure> congratulations
13:35 < kanzure> hey so why did they make a person's presence in a certain location the on/off switch for a super-ai?
13:36 < fenn> eh?
13:37 < fenn> it was otherwise preoccupied, until you meddling children disturbed it
13:37 < kanzure> what? in appleseed
13:37 < fenn> oh, um, i forget
13:37 < genehacker> what's all this about appleseed?
13:38 < genehacker> and how does one determine what size endmill it takes to cut features of a certain size?
13:39 -!- Juul [n=Juul@h55eb1609.dkkoost.sta.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
13:46 < kanzure> fenn: one thing i like about github is they support gpg git push/pull
13:46 < kanzure> i would like to implement that on web.py
13:46 < kanzure> but does this mean i need to implement the custom git:// protocol?
13:46 < kanzure> or is that just ssh?
13:47 < fenn> git:// is its own protocol; i guess you could tunnel it over ssh. what's this about gpg?
13:47 < kanzure> on github you give them your public key
13:47 < kanzure> so you can push to github without password authentication
13:47 < fenn> ok
13:48 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure this is a Good Thing
13:48 < kanzure> do you know of any git-daemons?
13:48 < kanzure> http://devhobby.blogspot.com/2008/04/quickie-git-daemon.html
13:49 < kanzure> ah i guess i can just implement --base-path
13:49 < kanzure> er, use
13:49 < kanzure> but that doesn't explain how to do access control. hrm..
13:49 < kanzure> http://github.com/blog/112-supercharged-git-daemon
13:50 < kanzure> heh "With egitd we can inject reasonable error responses into the response instead of just closing the connection and leaving the user bewildered. Behold!"
13:51 < kanzure> http://github.com/mojombo/egitd
13:51 < kanzure> erlang? really?
13:53 < kanzure> "In 1998, the AXD301 switch was announced, containing over a million lines of Erlang, and reported to achieve a reliability of nine "9"s. Shortly thereafter, Erlang was banned within Ericsson Radio Systems for new products, citing a preference for non-proprietary languages."
13:53 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_(programming_language)
13:55 < kanzure> http://tom.preston-werner.com/
13:55 < fenn> i love all the random 1980's stuff in appleseed, like denim vests and beige telephones and dot matrix printers
13:57 < kanzure> yes it was a nice touch
13:57 < kanzure> i like how they made it look like it was made in the 80s
13:59 < kanzure> shit!
13:59 < kanzure> "I wanted to remind you know about a seminar today in ETC 4.120 at 3:00 pm.  The speaker is Tolga Kurtoglu.  He is a Research Scientist with NASA Ames Research Center.  The title of his seminar is "Designing Health Management Systems for Next Generation Aerospace Vehicles."  Attached is the flyer.  Thanks.I wanted to remind you know about a seminar today in ETC 4.120 at 3:00 pm.  The speaker is Tolga Kurtoglu.  He is a Research Scientist with NASA Ames Research Center.  The title of his seminar is "Designing Health Management Systems for Next Generation Aerospace Vehicles."  Attached is the flyer.  Thanks."
14:00 < genehacker> dammit
14:00 < genehacker> I have statistics at that time
14:00 < genehacker> hmmm...
14:00 < genehacker> ETC 4.120
14:00 < genehacker> not too far from statistics
14:01 < kanzure> tolga wrote an interesting paper recently
14:01 < genehacker> about?
14:01 < genehacker> are you on floor 4?
14:01 < kanzure> about fault failure propagation and analysis/prediction in mechanical designs
14:01 < kanzure> no i'm at home
14:02 < genehacker> hmmm...
14:02 < genehacker> time to head to etc
14:05 < kanzure> http://erikonrails.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/how-to-get-gitorious-running-on-your-own-server/
14:14 < kanzure> fenn: do you have the outline yet?
14:15 < fenn> no
14:21 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-54-30.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:30 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-175-235.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:32 < kanzure> genehacker: are you going to make tolga's presentation? it's at 3pm ETC 4.120
14:33 < genehacker> probably not 
14:33 < genehacker> I have a statistics class
14:35 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:44 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:48 < kanzure> http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
14:49 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot hm..
14:49 < kanzure> 4k messages to makerbot@googlegroups.com ? wtf
14:50 < kanzure> http://studentuniverse.com/ cheap plane tickets if you have a .edu address (via parijata)
14:51 < fenn> why does everyone love university students so much
15:00 < ybit> kanzure: if you haven't already i'll send an email to let them know that we've tried contacting them several times through the phone, and request that they call your number 
15:01 < kanzure> okay that's fine
15:05 < ybit> nice find in studentuniverse.com
15:07 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-175-235.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:09 < ybit> the factory seed mentioned in ksrm is massive
15:10 -!- Juul [n=Juul@h55eb1609.dkkoost.sta.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:11 < ybit> not even halfway thought through: if possible, it would be nice to aim for reproduction instead of replication so that mutations occur and evolution might take place
15:11 < fenn> no
15:11 < ybit> just in case the human race is doomed
15:11 < fenn> mutations are almost always bad
15:11 < fenn> we don't have the luxury of getting it wrong
15:14 < ybit> but in case of a doomsday scenerio, maybe mutation can be a good thing, some rules which make sure productivity is being made could programmed in and if a certain quota isn't made, it resets to what is being produced?
15:14 < ybit> just a thought
15:15 < fenn> in case of doomsday scenario, whether it's being productive or not isn't the problem
15:16 < kanzure> stfu and gimme that outline
15:16 < kanzure> gimme gimme gimme
15:16 < fenn> wtf write your own outline
15:16 < kanzure> what?
15:16 < kanzure> i thought you said..
15:17 < kanzure> ka;;kja;kal
15:17 < fenn> i said we'd write outlines and then shuffle around the bits we want to talk about until they're contiguous
15:17 < ybit> if it's carrying our knowledge, i would want it to grow instead of just working away on the moon with no chance of evolving into anything more
15:17 < kanzure> so what are you doing then?
15:17 < fenn> looking at makerbot mailing list :x
15:19 < fenn> and the power rangers database
15:19 -!- mage2 [n=mage@66.179.208.36] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:19 < ybit> nap-time and the .deb finishing time
15:20 < ybit> s/the/then
15:27 < bkero> Cheapest way to do genetic testing at home?
15:27 < kanzure> what type of testing
15:28 < kanzure> for specific SNPs?
15:28 < kanzure> or for the presence of a gene? i guarantee that you probably have the same genes as the rest of us .. ;-)
15:31 < bkero> Just testing the expression of random genes :P
15:32 < kanzure> so you want to look for promoters in front of genes? for instance certain promoters up-promote expression
15:32 < fenn> if you're really testing for expression you need RTPCR
15:32 < fenn> not exactly a cheap diy thing
15:32 < bkero> Cheap on labx?
15:33 < fenn> dunno
15:34 < bkero> Some old shit: http://www.labx.com/v2/spiderdealer2/vistaSearchDetails.cfm?LVid=5352280
16:04 < kanzure> RuntimeError: Set changed size during iteration 
16:04 < fenn> i wonder where all the reels are supposed to go http://www.ladyada.net/wiki/_detail/mdcpickandplace/4059204178_04e78217e3.jpg?id=mdcpickandplace%3Aaccessories
16:04 < kanzure> a set isn't supposed to change size? wah
16:07 < kanzure> the part of my brain that writes clean/pretty recursion must be turned off
16:15 < fenn> so a reel feeder like this is $500-$1000 new http://i.ebayimg.com/04/!BWTf-sw!mk~$(KGrHgoOKjUEjlLmTEG6BKW0k!wkDw~~_12.JPG
16:15 < fenn> supposedly they're a major part of the cost of pick and place electronics assembly machines
16:15 < fenn> but wtf that looks so easy to make
16:15 < kanzure> what a terribe url
16:15 < kanzure> i mean, what the *fuck*
16:16 < fenn> it's designed for maximum entropy
16:16 < kanzure> it's designed for pissing me off
16:16 < kanzure> this is a feeder for smt rolls?
16:16 < fenn> yes
16:17 < fenn> search.ebay.com/170358924351
16:17 < fenn> i dont know why someone would be selling one feeder though
16:17 < fenn> oh nm he's selling 12
16:19 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego/data.yaml/:log
16:19 < kanzure> gah that sucked.
16:19 < kanzure> but it works now.
16:19 < kanzure> er
16:19 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:anonymous/data.yaml/:log
16:19 < kanzure> well that's not right..
16:19 < kanzure> that was the parent of the anonymous-branch-only-commit
16:19 < kanzure> but there's only one commit on branch anonymous
16:20 < fenn> the second url gives me that "does not exist" error
16:20 < fenn> if i add / to the end of the url i can get the page
16:21 < kanzure> i keep asking you to try it with my ip address and see what happens, since the error message always talks about heybryan.org
16:21 < kanzure> 192.168.1.102
16:21 < fenn> it just does the same thing with s/heybryan/ip
16:21 < kanzure> what a weird error.. wget doesn't give it to me
16:21 < fenn> i think it's something to do with not sending headers
16:21 < kanzure> i'm not sending headers?
16:22 < fenn> i dont really know what is going on, sorry
16:23 < kanzure> me either. so i'm going to ignore this for now
16:26 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-46-67.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:27 < kanzure> oh. i wrote get_all_parents and assumed i had put in the start/initial commit. 
16:27 < kanzure> guess that's not a parent huh
16:28 < kanzure> there we go, much better
16:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:anonymous/data.yaml/e13f22fcd98f9fc6a39dd436e39f85c4013d2a08/:log/
16:29 < kanzure> there should be a commit that says "not implemented yet" near the top
16:31 < kanzure> now with links to the individual blobs
16:32 < kanzure> hm should /package/lego:anonymous/b4b3ff0b3940d95754ff8ffe68ee846b9d80919b (for a specific tree) work? because it doesn't
16:33 < kanzure> well this sucks. on branch "master" there's only one commit: http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data.yaml/2e8070856018dc79777ad070036f854f77bf9ba6/:log
16:35 < fenn> i thought this was working yesterday
16:35 < kanzure> no logs were not working
16:35 < fenn> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego/:log
16:36 < kanzure> er
16:36 < kanzure> it works for me
16:36 < fenn> only without branch specified
16:36 < kanzure> i'm doing individual file logs
16:36 < fenn> ok
16:36 < kanzure> (which weren't working yesterday)
16:37 < fenn> hey i know it's not nearly as interesting but could you do an intro page that lists all the packages?
16:38 < kanzure> lemme fix that last branch "master" log bug on individual files, and then i'll do that
16:43 < kanzure> huh? now it randomly started working?
16:43 < kanzure> and refreshing breaks it
16:43 < kanzure> beautiful
16:45 < kanzure> heh so it works the first time you call it (after booting up the server), but not the second
16:48 < ybit> grr, i built it in the wrong directory
16:49 < ybit> i have to recompile
16:49  * ybit cries
16:49 < kanzure> why not just move it
16:52 < ybit> because i don't know exactly what all it did and i don't want to cipher through setup.py to find out
16:52 < ybit> i would say my reputation's on the line, but i think it's been squashed awhile back
16:56 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org:8081/package/ there be yer index
16:56 < kanzure> hm, threads doesn't seem to work
16:56 < fenn> thx
16:59 < fenn> is cia down or are you just not committing regularly?
17:00 -!- any81127722 [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:05 < kanzure> not committing
17:05 < kanzure> sorry
17:05 -!- any05154428 [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:05 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
17:06 -!- any05154428 is now known as katsmeow-afk
17:08 < kanzure> fenn: are you able to skdb.Package("threads") ?
17:09 < CIA-33> skdb: Heath Matlock * r d1e3b26 /doc/installing: It was incorrect, you don't need quote space.
17:09 < CIA-33> skdb: Heath Matlock * r c193798 / (8 files in 6 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://adl.serveftp.org/var/www/skdb
17:09 < kanzure> ybit: pull before you commit. also, become friends with "git stash" :)
17:10 < ybit> yeah, that was my bad
17:12  * fenn is wondering what the point of the bearing package is
17:12 < kanzure> probably little to nothing
17:12 < kanzure> i think i made it in july just to make yet-another-package-to-test
17:16 < kanzure> there we go: http://heybryan.org:8081/package/threads/
17:16 < kanzure> the problem was that yaml freaked because "data.yaml" was empty
17:17 < kanzure> i filed a bug report on that (it's bug:18e) so eventually that should be fixed in skdb.git
17:19 < kanzure> ybit: gah! 
17:19 < kanzure> -sed -i -e '144s/ = \[/ = \[\'-classic\', \'-nomodernargs\', /' wrapper/environment.py
17:19 < kanzure> +sed -i -e '144s/ = \[/ = \[ -classic ,  -nomodernargs, /' wrapper/environment.py
17:19 < kanzure> noooo, they need to be in quotes :(
17:21 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 9f3427a / (8 files in 6 dirs): commit logs for individual files; various bug fixes on web.py; lotta bug reports.
17:22 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:22 < kanzure> hey jason
17:23 -!- any81127722 [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:26 < CIA-33> skdb: fenn * r 1bcbfd2 /packages/ (5 files in 4 dirs): added icons for each package
17:26 < fenn> ok so these cheetah things seem to be autogenerated
17:28 < fenn> can i get a simple readme how to redo them?
17:29 < fenn> is it just cheetah compile *.tmpl ?
17:29 < fenn> and if so why did you commit all that crap
17:33 < CIA-33> skdb: fenn * r cbf960f /web/templates/footer.tmpl: nobody cares about omnifab.org
17:43 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:43 < kanzure> fenn: what crap? it should just be .tmpl files
17:46 < fenn> i must have generated them earlier and forgotten?
17:46 < fenn> weird
17:48 < fenn> what is all the TLD crap?
17:49 < fenn> it shouldnt have to download anythig to start a friggin web server
17:49 < kanzure> are you reviewing web.py
17:49 < fenn> i'm trying to run the stupid thing so i can see my changes before committing them
17:56 < ybit> kanzure: ah, i see what you mean :\ i fail
17:58 < ybit> Thank you for shopping at Newegg.com. 
17:58 < ybit> We regret to inform you that your order could not be completed
17:58 < ybit> bastards
17:58 < kanzure> here are the git repositories: http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/packages/
17:58 < kanzure> or a zip file:
17:58 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/packages.zip
17:58 < kanzure> these are not the current ones that heybryan.org:8081 is running off of, but they are close enough
17:58 < kanzure> put them in /usr/local/share/skdb/
17:59 < fenn> that must be before you did gc --aggressive
18:00 < kanzure> fenn: i think one of your walls is fake
18:00 < kanzure> it explains the acoustics, the temperature, and everything
18:00 < fenn> the one that goes outside
18:00 < fenn> yeah
18:00 < fenn> i'm not entirely convinced the window closes
18:00 < kanzure> it's just a hologram
18:01 < fenn> a hologram i spent two hours scraping the paint overspray off of
18:01 < kanzure> ok i ran aggressive on all of them (they are not in the zip file yet)
18:02 < kanzure> ok now they are :)
18:02 < fenn> what does a git daemon do exactly?
18:02 < fenn> allow git:// protocol?
18:02  * kanzure nods
18:03 < kanzure> so you can push, pull, etc.
18:03 < kanzure> pushing is kinda important no?
18:03 < fenn> i guess
18:03 < kanzure> can we just make them use ssh?
18:03 < fenn> i hate thinking about that stuff
18:03 < fenn> where is a cracker when you need one
18:03 < kanzure> the food item?
18:06 < fenn> lego is out of sync already; its missing the png's
18:06 < kanzure> oops
18:06 < kanzure> uh
18:06 < kanzure> do you want me to fix this or do you want to take a stab at it
18:07 < fenn> git rm packages; git commit -m'packages are now in separate git repos' ?
18:07 < kanzure> yes
18:07 < kanzure> and i'll split them off before i pull that
18:07 < fenn> i guess there is some documentation to update as well
18:08 < fenn> hm well it really doesn't work on my machine very well
18:08 < kanzure> what doesn't?
18:09 < fenn> lots of localhost does not exist stuff, then i get weird vpath errors sporadically
18:12 < kanzure> fenn: files in a package are pulled from the repository, so if the .png isn't committed, it shouldn't show up
18:12 < fenn> oh duh
18:31 < kanzure> fenn: can you upload your .git's to adl:/home/bryan/public_html/packages/ so we can use them as the officially-branched-repos?
18:31 < kanzure> er, not branched, but yeah
18:38 < kanzure> er
18:38 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb-packages/ where'd these come from
18:39 < fenn> mitosified
18:39 < kanzure> whoever this "bryan" fellow is, he's on the ball
18:39 < kanzure> back in august
18:39 < fenn> i know you have a time machine hidden in that storage space over by the airport
18:40 < kanzure> i used it to make myself look 20 years younger 
18:40 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-11-06-4.jpg
18:40 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-11-29-144040.jpg
18:41 < fenn> why do webcams output high pixel count pictures if the actual resolution sucks so bad
18:41 < kanzure> no that's just how i look
18:41 < kanzure> all pixelated
18:47 < kanzure> fenn: do we want .git's or the working directories?
19:06 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r c2f93af / (38 files in 6 dirs): updated skdb-get.py, moved packages to the server.
19:10 < genehacker> who's the guy trying to reboot SEDS?
19:10 < kanzure> hal runs an austin space exploration meetup group
19:10 < genehacker> also why's he doing it during finals?
19:10 < kanzure> dunno, ask him
19:12 < QuantumG> at Texas A&M?
19:12 < kanzure> utexas.edu
19:12 < kanzure> texas a&m already has one
19:12 < QuantumG> right ok
19:12 < genehacker> I wonder if one could start a replicator club
19:12 < genehacker> focused on building self-replicating automata...
19:16 < QuantumG> start yourself a basic warp core maintenance club while you're at it 
19:17 < genehacker> you have insufficient science points to do so
19:18 < genehacker> err... I guess it's really more of an engineering problem at this stage
19:19 < genehacker> after all it takes a casimir capacitor the size of jupiter to get high enough negative energy density to do so...
19:20 < QuantumG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdKyf8fsH6w
19:23 < QuantumG> I know its important to teach the next generation and all, and if this stops Merkle burning out that's a good thing too, but there's gotta be a better way than luring the guy away from his work.
19:24 < kanzure> QuantumG: so, did you hear us ranting about singularityuniversity wehn it came out?
19:24 < kanzure> i mean, do you know about all the scandals and bullshit behind it
19:24 < QuantumG> ya
19:24 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:24 < QuantumG> I don't know the scandals no
19:24 < kanzure> QuantumG: ok just checking. i have nothing to add :) just stay the fuck away from it
19:24 < kanzure> hm, okay
19:24 < QuantumG> umm.. they're cooks
19:24 < kanzure> well i'm sure there's a story on the web about peter diamandis
19:25 < QuantumG> I know a lot about peter diamandis
19:25 < kanzure> basically he did this same thing for "space university"
19:25 < kanzure> it's just a money pit for him
19:25 < kanzure> and if you look at the curriculum it's really not that impressive..
19:26 < QuantumG> ya do know that peter diamandis is not in it for the money though right.. if he's after money it's because he wants to chase the dream
19:26 < kanzure> are you kidding me? $30k for 9 weeks of crap?
19:26 < kanzure> if he really wanted to "live the dream" he'd just give them a shop with tools
19:26 < kanzure> and let them get to work
19:26 < Utopiah> have to pay for the gorgeous design.
19:26 < kanzure> for the what?
19:27 < Utopiah> they have a blazon
19:27 < QuantumG> ya, I'm definitely not defending the institution
19:27 < QuantumG> "money making scam" sounds about accurate
19:28 < kanzure> okie dokie
19:28 < kanzure> just making sure you're not signing up or something
19:28 < QuantumG> but don't go thinking that Diamandis is trying to make money to buy a nice big house or something
19:28 < kanzure> there's a lot of drama around this group of people
19:28 < kanzure> it's totally useless drama too
19:29 < QuantumG> hehe, they're nuts.. and they attract suckers.
19:29 < kanzure> do you think i'm nuts?
19:30 < kanzure> just wondering. a lot of singularity topics seem to be dead on. just they're doing the totally wrong things..
19:30 < ybit> i wouldn't call all the speakers at the singularity uni. or summit nuts
19:31 < QuantumG> umm.. the speakers are mostly suckers
19:31 < ybit> boyden, hessel..
19:31 < QuantumG> or just happy to have a platform
19:32 < kanzure> true that
19:32 < kanzure> what is boyden doing there?
19:33 < QuantumG> if you think "the singularity is coming" because Kurzweil told you so, you're a sucker.  If you still think the singularity is coming after you've discovered that most the crap that comes out of Kurzweil is inaccurate speculation with no scientific backing, then you're a nut.  
19:33 < ybit> i can agree to that
19:33 < genehacker> the singularity won't come if you wait for it
19:33 < kanzure> i came "this close" to meeting kurzweil once. he didn't look well
19:34 < fenn> thanks for your vote of confidence. /me goes back to email thread deriding his other ideas
19:34 < kanzure> fenn: what?
19:34 < fenn> twister
19:34 < kanzure> vote of confidence on what?
19:34 < QuantumG> but if you think "there's interesting science being done and this is where a lot of interesting people who are doing it are coming together" then you're just putting up with the crazies :)
19:34 < fenn> "If you still think the singularity is coming after you've discovered that most the crap that comes out of Kurzweil is inaccurate speculation with no scientific backing, then you're a nut."
19:34 < kanzure> QuantumG: i keep hoping that singinst.org will grow some balls and start directing some money to people doing cool shit
19:35 < fenn> kurzweil could be off by twenty orders of magnitude and still eventually be proved right
19:35 < genehacker> I thought they were going to fund a replicator x-prize once
19:35 < kanzure> QuantumG: it sounds like you're new to this?
19:35 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:35 < kanzure> genehacker: not an x-prize but there was going to be a "vnc prize", yes
19:35 < kanzure> the guy never got back with me
19:35 < QuantumG> they've gotta build their power base first.. it's brand new, they'll take decades to get any endowments together that are worth a damn.
19:35 < genehacker> VNC prize?
19:36 < kanzure> von neumann machine prize. i dunno why it was "c" though
19:36 < fenn> constructor
19:36 < kanzure> thanks
19:36 < fenn> von neumann machine typically refers to the computer architecture
19:36 < kanzure> QuantumG: ah you're of the camp "it takes billions of dollars to do anything interesting"?
19:36 < kanzure> fenn: i agree
19:36 < genehacker> I want to build one based around the stuff in that cyclic fabrication paper
19:37 < QuantumG> kanzure: let's say million dollar prize instead
19:37 < kanzure> prize?
19:37 < kanzure> sorry what are we talking about?
19:37 < kanzure> did the threads just cross
19:37 < fenn> you could accomplish a lot just by paying for peoples' living expenses for a certain number of years
19:37 < QuantumG> ya, that'll be the tact they'll go with
19:38 < QuantumG> xprize stylez
19:38 < kanzure> i don't think they'll do anything
19:38 < genehacker> slavery fenn?
19:38 < kanzure> that's why i'm here...
19:38 < kanzure> genehacker: patronage
19:38 < fenn> genehacker: nobody said you had to do it.. you're free to pursue your own brand of economic slavery
19:38 < QuantumG> nah.. that's considered too old way
19:39 < kanzure> are you drunk?
19:39 < fenn> yeah now we have VC :(
19:39 < fenn> 51% of whatever you do
19:39 < QuantumG> they prefer the "here's an incentive to encourage competition, now spend more than the prize money to win the prize"
19:39 < kanzure> QuantumG: the xprize was originally a scam
19:39 < kanzure> wasn't it you who was telling me this?
19:39 < kanzure> sigh
19:40 < fenn> why was xprize a scam?
19:40 < QuantumG> s/originally/
19:40 < kanzure> fenn: they got some people to say "this is impossible", got an insurance company to insure against it, but they already had a winning tech solution
19:40 < kanzure> so they just entered their own competition and won the money
19:41 < fenn> oh it's not a scam if you're playing against the actuaries :)
19:41 < QuantumG> at least with the GLXP they've finally come out and admitted it.. the prize is insufficient to cover the expense of winning it.  It only makes sense to compete if you have found other funding sources for your attempt.
19:41 < genehacker> haha the x-prize was a scam?
19:41 < kanzure> maybe "scam" isn't the right word
19:41 < kanzure> um.
19:42 < fenn> creative fundraising solution
19:42 < kanzure> yeah, go with that
19:43 < kanzure> fenn: do you want me to display the icons, or will you edit web.py to do that
19:43 < fenn> i'll let you do that
19:43 < genehacker> so more like bet
19:43 < QuantumG> the rules for the NGLLC were created in this fashion:  "how can we get NASA to give some money to Armadillo Aerospace?"  "without claiming their work?"  "yeah"  "We need a prize that Armadillo can win in the first or second year.. NASA puts up the prize money."  "Yeah, but they'll never pay the management costs."  "That's ok, we'll get another sponsor for that."  "Sweet."
19:44 < fenn> 10m is peanuts compared to nasa's budget anyway
19:44 < QuantumG> blood from a stone
19:44 < fenn> it's not even statistical noise
19:45 < fenn> my high school cost $45M to renovate (something like that)
19:45 < QuantumG> if anyone wins the GLXP who will it be?
19:45 < genehacker> isn't 15 million the cost fo the rotating tether thing?
19:45 < QuantumG> come on... you guys know this right?
19:45 < fenn> spacex?
19:45 < kanzure> fenn: my district made a new high school during my compulsory attendance. $99M.
19:46 < QuantumG> sigh.  Odyssey Moon is the leader in the GLXP race
19:46 < QuantumG> Odyssey Moon is run by..
19:46 < fenn> there's a "race"?
19:46 < fenn> i havent been paying attention to this crap
19:46 < QuantumG> Bob Richards
19:46 < kanzure> QuantumG: what happened to team frednet?
19:46 < fenn> since it's totally worthless and pointless in the end
19:46 < kanzure> have they got their act together yet?
19:46 < QuantumG> Frednet have a good chance.
19:46 < kanzure> i was on their team for a while
19:46 < fenn> we dont need a moon race, we need economically significant low earth orbit industry
19:47 < QuantumG> Bob Richards was the founder of SEDS Canada
19:47 < fenn> and a low cost earth to orbit transport infrastructure
19:47 < genehacker> the tether thing right?
19:47 < QuantumG> Peter Diamandis was the founder of SEDS USA
19:47 < QuantumG> both of them are Singularity University heads
19:47 < QuantumG> ... do ya see the pattern yet.
19:47 < kanzure> lots of bullshit?
19:47 < kanzure> an old boy's club?
19:48 < fenn> QuantumG: did it ever occur to you that out of the 0.01% of people who actually have money, very few of them are interested in cool stuff like going to the moon
19:48 < QuantumG> they have a shared vision of "Exporation and Development of Space" .. so they scratch each other's backs.
19:48 < kanzure> yeah instead of actually doing shit that matters
19:48 < QuantumG> yes, it's an old boy's club
19:49 < QuantumG> .. that's the shit they think matters
19:49 < kanzure> corporate space tech? no thanks
19:49 < kanzure> that's why i picked frednet
19:49 < fenn> better than no space tech
19:49 < kanzure> but even they seem to have some issues (not much)
19:49 < fenn> frednet is a joke
19:49 < kanzure> probably
19:49 < QuantumG> it's better than thinking "what matters" is lining their own pockets
19:49 < fenn> not even as funny as virgle
19:49 < QuantumG> or making their family dynasty rich
19:50 < kanzure> i'm having some trouble following you over here. are you trying ot make a point?
19:50 < kanzure> like "nothing matters except for these people because they have money"?
19:50 < fenn> as far as space development, yes
19:50 < QuantumG> umm.. they're actually doing stuff.. if you think you don't need money to do stuff.. do it, come back when you have the counterexample.
19:50 < kanzure> you don't think i'm doing anything?
19:51 < QuantumG> I think I've made that clear for the last 5 years or so man
19:51 < kanzure> then why are you here?
19:51 < kanzure> you obviously don't like any of this
19:51 < QuantumG> honestly?  cause you emailed me and asked me to come back :)
19:51 < kanzure> i guess you need to make it clear that you don't care 
19:51 < QuantumG> that and you guys are actually intelligent
19:52 < QuantumG> and I like talking to intelligent people
19:52 < kanzure> s/need/needed/
19:52 < kanzure> nothing wrong with that
19:52 < fenn> i'm sick of people telling me i'm so smart and refusing to actually help me do anything
19:52 < fenn> or listen to what i'm saying
19:52 < QuantumG> what?
19:52 < QuantumG> :)
19:54 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org:8081/package/
19:54 < kanzure> eww
19:54 < genehacker> try using a megaphone
19:54 < fenn> i was thinking squares with the text centered underneath each icon
19:55 < kanzure> but they aren't squares
19:55 < fenn> close enough
19:55 < kanzure> heh
19:55 < kanzure> okay
19:55 < fenn> hey why does threads have a white background.. thought i fixed that
19:56 < genehacker> that's pretty fancy
19:56 < genehacker> now if you only had a section on how cutting tools are made from other cutting tools
19:56 < kanzure> IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/home/kanzure/local/packages-skdb/lego/.git/HEAD' 
19:56 < kanzure> idjfladjfladkjfal;
19:56 < kanzure> woopsies
19:56 < fenn> kanzure: see? it's easy to impress idiots with shiny icons
19:57 < genehacker> really it is
19:57 < kanzure> wtf
19:57 < genehacker> if you add enough maybe you could convince a venture capitalist to fund you
19:58 < kanzure> why would they fund something that makes no money
19:58 < genehacker> twitter...
19:58 < kanzure> they had every media outlet eating their poops
19:58 < kanzure> not a good example
19:59 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 685dd5f /web/web.py: display icons on the package index
19:59 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r b20d9a7 /clients/skdb-get.py: fixed permission problem leftovers from skdb-get.py
20:00 < fenn> if you want to fix the thread icon for me: http://fennetic.net/irc/icon.png
20:01 < kanzure> someone forgot the magic colors :)
20:01  * fenn blames imagemagick
20:04 < fenn> i guess we should setup cia for the packages too
20:05 < kanzure> and git push/pull please
20:05 < kanzure> hm.. this is going to get messy
20:05 < fenn> git pull doesn't copy hooks, so it should be fine
20:05 < kanzure> packages are adl:/var/www/skdb-packages/
20:06 < fenn> s/pull/clone/
20:06 < kanzure> by messy i mean.. for other people to push to master they'd have some sort of write access, somewhere on the server
20:06 < fenn> yeah. you can set up ssh to only allow a particular command for a key
20:06 < fenn> and there's probably some awful webdav thing for git
20:07 < kanzure> oh sure now i can rest easy~
20:07 < fenn> so ssh would only allow them to do git push
20:07 < kanzure> okay, cool
20:07 < fenn> (for the record i'm not endorsing webdav)
20:10 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20:13 < kanzure> fenn: thanks for the money transfer
20:13 < bkero> Transfer some money to me? :3
20:13 < kanzure> it's for the hotel
20:13 < kanzure> and it wasn't to me :(
20:14 < bkero> Oh yea, how's the Irvine stuff progressing?
20:15 < kanzure> fenn didn't like my presentation so he's redoing half of it or something
20:16 < genehacker> presentation on skdb correct?
20:16 < kanzure> yes
20:16 < fenn> what presentation?
20:17 < kanzure> the .odp file? remember?
20:17 < fenn> i dont have openoffice
20:17 < fenn> "updates from austin"?
20:17 < kanzure> that's why i made a .pdf
20:17 < kanzure> no
20:17 < kanzure> i think an old copy is here: http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/presentations/draft.pdf
20:17 < kanzure> (from october)
20:18 < fenn> that is just a bunch of pictures of linux geeks
20:19 < kanzure> yeah i'm not going to do huge blocks of text
20:19 < kanzure> that's not what presentations are for
20:19 < fenn> i know, but.. there's no diagrams or anything
20:19 < genehacker> excellent, you'll do well in engineering communications if you ever take it here
20:20 < kanzure> fenn: what happened to the package graphs?
20:20 < kanzure> and the debian graphs
20:20 < fenn> and these linux people are only very tangentially related... linus torvalds? pictures f random development conferences?
20:21 < fenn> hold on.. it takes my patient a long time to render these pages
20:21 < kanzure> people don't know about development conferences
20:21 < kanzure> these are not developers we're talking to
20:21 < fenn> whatever.. development conferences are not important
20:21 < kanzure> i'm trying to show that there's people
20:21 < kanzure> you can't just say "tens of thousands of people" and wave your hands
20:21 < kanzure> they don't believe you
20:21 < kanzure> at least they haven't believed me before..
20:22 < fenn> it's not real until it's on fox news
20:22 < ybit> not so, i spotted an alien ship just last week, was that on fox news?
20:23 < fenn> it might have been
20:23 < fenn> the chicago airport thing was all over the news
20:25 < ybit> how much are the sugar rocket guys/gals spending?
20:25 < fenn> who cares
20:26 < fenn> how much do bottle rockets cost
20:26 < fenn> do some fucking math
20:26 < genehacker> chicago airport thing?
20:26 < ybit> it isn't orbit, so i guess it doesn't matter
20:26 < genehacker> oh
20:26 < fenn> ybit: correct :)
20:27 < fenn> ybit: it's amazing how many people don't understand that
20:27 < kanzure> sugarshot.org is supposed to be orbit
20:27 < fenn> NO
20:27 < fenn> 100km does not mean 'orbital'
20:27 < genehacker> sounds like they want to get to 100 km
20:27 < kanzure> i thought they were doing more than 100km
20:28 < genehacker> getting in orbit is all about seepd
20:28 < genehacker> *speed
20:28 < kanzure> anyway, the people on sugpro are doing way way less than 100km
20:29 < fenn> team whatever bullshit x-prize thingy were going to fire a beryllium copper slug horizontally off of a solid rocket at 100km, using a light gas gun
20:29 < fenn> but that's 1 cubic mm and probably wouldnt have worked anyway
20:29 < genehacker> screw sugar rockets, it'd be better if we had people working on variable nozzle diameter rockts
20:29 < genehacker> *rockets
20:30 < fenn> it'd be better if we had people working on basic industrial infrastructure so we can make V2's
20:30 < genehacker> a light gas gun?
20:30 < genehacker> aren't thoes huge?
20:30 < fenn> not necessarily
20:31 < genehacker> do you know why variable nozzle diameter rockets are cool?
20:31 < genehacker> it's because they're more efficient
20:31 < fenn> because you read about them on new scientist?
20:31 < genehacker> no
20:32 < fenn> physorg?
20:32 < genehacker> no
20:32 < fenn> ummm.. spacedaily
20:32 < genehacker> because I learned about supersonic flow in class the other day
20:32 < genehacker> and finally understood why they're all the rage
20:33 < fenn> guh.. it's very simple
20:33 < genehacker> yeah pretty much
20:33 < fenn> atmospheric density changes from 1atm to 0 as you approach space
20:33 < fenn> the expansion ratio has to match or else you're causing extra drag
20:34 < fenn> by creating a venturi vacuum
20:34 < genehacker> err... isn't it not getting your money's worth of thrust?
20:35 < fenn> well that too, you have to balance it between too high and too low
20:35 < fenn> i believe aerospike engines dont have this problem
20:35 < genehacker> yup
20:37 < fenn> god these sugar shot people suck.. they are just emulating nasa bureaucracy to pretend they're getting something done
20:37 < QuantumG> if they ever get them working
20:37 < fenn>  
20:37 < fenn> Report on Project "Phase One" Findings
20:37 < fenn> Environmental Impact Control Methods: Primary Site Rules and Constraints
20:37 < kanzure> i get emails from richard nakka every week with "weekly report updates"
20:37 < QuantumG> no engine is in commercial production. The best large-scale aerospikes are still only in testing phases.
20:37 < fenn> aerospikes have been around since 1960's
20:38 < QuantumG> in testing yes
20:38 < fenn> it was in one of the original shuttle proposals
20:38 < fenn> 'not in commercial production' is a stupid reason not to produce something
20:38 < QuantumG> I'm just saying the TRL is low
20:39 < genehacker> at least the nasa people get stuff done
20:39 < fenn> genehacker: are you fucking joking??
20:39 < QuantumG> they get some stuff done.. they fail at a lot of other stuff
20:39 < kanzure> hahah
20:40 < QuantumG> their batting average is pretty terrible
20:40 < kanzure> how did the open-mfg-project-dealy get funded, again?
20:40 < QuantumG> and their costs are insanely out of proportion with what they get done
20:40 < fenn> what project?
20:40 < kanzure> the "open source" cnc
20:40 < kanzure> machine
20:41 < fenn> it was funded by the guy who owns mfg.com
20:41 < fenn> as part of 'mfg.com labs'
20:41 < fenn> i never saw any cad files :(
20:41 < kanzure> me either
20:41 < fenn> or evidence that it cut metal
20:42 < fenn> it's hard to imagine that it didn't work, i mean everything looks great
20:42 < genehacker> can it cut wax?
20:42 < genehacker> and be made of cast polyurethane
20:42 < fenn> yeah it cut the mfg.com logo into some wood
20:42 < QuantumG> http://www.rocketlab.co.nz/atea-1.html
20:42 < QuantumG> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/11/kiwi-rocket-scares-sheep-reaches-space/
20:42 < genehacker> to what accuracy?
20:42 < fenn> genehacker: why dont you just make the damn wax thing instead of pestering me about it
20:42 < QuantumG> watch as these kiwis hoard their rocket design like Americans under ITAR.
20:43 < genehacker> I will make it
20:43 < QuantumG> the logic of "it cost us to figure this out so we're not gunna tell anyone" backed up with a little "someone else with similar funding to us might compete with us!"  is plenty sad.
20:44 < QuantumG> never mind that they went with the simplest possible rocket design and frankly it's not that hard for amateurs to reproduce their work.
20:44 < QuantumG> .. which is something I'd like to do next year.. and publish full specifications
20:44 < fenn> what is it, LOX/kerosene?
20:45 < genehacker> too bad one can't launch rockets from the middle of the ocean where no one is around...
20:45 < QuantumG> nitrous hybrid
20:45 < QuantumG> I'll probably do lox/kero
20:45 < QuantumG> after gox/methane
20:45 < fenn> nitrous is aftermarket car parts
20:46 < QuantumG> yeah, nitrous hybrids are nice and simple .. and a natural progression from making your own solid motors
20:46 < genehacker> are aftermarket nitrous containers made of light weight composites?
20:47 < QuantumG> ahh, well that's the thing, I probably wont do the flight weight pressure vessels
20:47 < QuantumG> that's a later project
20:48 < QuantumG> safety first when it comes to static testing motors
20:48 < genehacker> do you know how to fiberglass
20:48 < genehacker> it isn't that hard
20:49 < QuantumG> no I don't.  But if its of use I may learn it one day.
20:49 < genehacker> it's good for making rocket bodies
20:50 < QuantumG> have you seen this?  http://quantumg.net/mockingbird.pdf
20:50 < QuantumG> don't blink or you'll miss the innovations the whole design relies on
20:51 < QuantumG> https://www.llnl.gov/etr/pdfs/07_94.2.pdf  makes it more clear
20:51 < QuantumG> LLNL made these reciprocating free piston pumps that are drastically smaller, lighter and more reliable than turbo pumps, but provide similar performance.
20:52 < QuantumG> back in 1994.
20:52 < genehacker> hmm... capable of imitating ballistic missile threats...
20:52 < QuantumG> http://www.xcor.com/products/pumps/index.html   tada
20:53 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20:54 < QuantumG> so, if you have good pumps then you no longer need high pressure tanks
20:54 < QuantumG> which means you can make your tank walls really thin and therefore make the vehicle really light
20:55 < QuantumG> only problem is that now your tank walls don't make very good supersonic vehicle structures.
20:56 < QuantumG> ... but in 1994 LLNL was just starting to make massive strides in a revolutionary new insulator.
20:56 < genehacker> interesting
20:56 < QuantumG> aerogel to the rescue.
20:56 < QuantumG> So you've got a design here for a vehicle that was cutting edge in 1994.. and now you can buy the two key innovations off the shelf.
20:57 < genehacker> the pump?
20:57 < QuantumG> and the aerogel
20:57 < genehacker> aerogel is still pretty damn expensive
20:57 < QuantumG> sure, but it's not LLNL expensive
20:57 < genehacker> yeah
20:58 < genehacker> it's possible to make it at home if you have an autoclave...
20:58 < QuantumG> you probably could make 20 psi carbon fibre tanks now that are lighter than aluminium 
20:58 < genehacker> 20 psi is this a supersoaker?
20:59 < QuantumG> ya.. it's only 20 psi to make the tanks still enough to hold the vehicle together at supersonic speeds.
20:59 < QuantumG> s/still/stiff/
21:00 < genehacker> at 20 psi you have to worry about making the tank strong enough to stand up
21:00 < genehacker> aluminum cans hold 90 psi
21:00 < genehacker> using carbon fiber would be outrageous
21:00 < QuantumG> yup.. the other thing is this design is for military field use
21:00 < genehacker> heck you could use a giant plastic soda can if you wanted too
21:01 < QuantumG> so they care unnecessarily about storable propellants
21:01 < genehacker> link to the 20 psi thing?
21:01 < QuantumG> same pdf
21:01 < QuantumG> http://quantumg.net/mockingbird.pdf
21:01 < genehacker> what's being stored at 20 psi?
21:01 < QuantumG> h2o2 and JP-1
21:02 < genehacker> JP-1 is?
21:02 < QuantumG> jet fuel
21:03 < genehacker> 70% H2O2 is nasty stuff 
21:03 < QuantumG> ya, and they're talking 95%
21:03 < QuantumG> if you don't mind cryo, you'd use LOX and get even better performance.
21:03 < genehacker> that's very nasty stuff
21:04 < QuantumG> being that the off-the-shelf pump is LOX rated, and cryo valves have improved drastically in the last 15 years, I'd go with LOX
21:04 < genehacker> that mocking bird thing shows 2000 psi not 20?
21:05 < genehacker> lox requires high pressure storage vessels
21:05 < QuantumG> 2000 psi at the engine... that's what pumps do, take fuel/oxidizer from low pressure to high pressure.
21:06 < QuantumG> lox can be stored in an atmospheric pressure dewar.. and typically is.
21:07 < genehacker> then your tank has to be made out of something special
21:07 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:08 < genehacker> now the question is how small can you make the pump and have the thing still work?
21:08 < genehacker> IE scale it down to hobbyist sizes
21:08 < QuantumG> hmm?  lox dewars are typically stainless steel.. but you can put it in an aluminum tank at atmospheric pressure.
21:08 < QuantumG> read the second pdf
21:08 < QuantumG> there's a picture
21:10 < QuantumG> this is probably the simplest pump out there though:  http://www.flometrics.com/rockets/rocket_pump/rocketpump.htm
21:10 < genehacker> there's a reason you use stainless steel with cyrogenic stuff
21:11 < genehacker> stainless steel doesn't contract much at cyrogenic temperatures
21:12 < QuantumG> not as good performance but comparable..
21:13 < genehacker> making 98% H2O2 isn't that hard
21:15 < genehacker> wait they wanted to use these things like drones?
21:15 < QuantumG> it was one of the suggestions.. but really LLNL just wanted to do something with their pump
21:16 < kanzure> ricardo vidal "Oh my, 100k € for a simple drupal site w/ no design? Talk about jobs for the boys... I should get back into web/logo designing!"
21:16 < genehacker> all this just to show off a pump?
21:16 < QuantumG> you develop a rocket pump, you wanna be able to make it into a rocket or two, yeah
21:17 < QuantumG> imagine if they had made these <$1M single stage to orbit vehicles back in '94-'96.
21:17 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:17 < genehacker> did they say they could put it in orbit?
21:17 < QuantumG> read the pdf for fuck sake
21:18 < genehacker> sorry
21:18 < genehacker> I'm just shocked that this hasn't happened already
21:18 < ybit> QuantumG: could you tell me a fourth time, i didn't read it correctly the first three ;)
21:18 < genehacker> hahaha
21:18 < QuantumG> haha.  That's government research for ya
21:19 < genehacker> they're talking about using it to deliver documents and ultra-high priority items
21:19 < QuantumG> "Do you understand what we've done here?!?!"  "no, not really."  "Well, with sufficient funding we could show you!!"  "funding request denied."
21:20 < QuantumG> "billions to show how fusion can't be made to work?  sure."
21:20 < genehacker> slosh baffles?
21:21 < genehacker> heh at 20 psi I'd say dike out the slosh baffles and put the fuel in some sort of elastic bladder use the thing like a giant super soaker
21:22 < genehacker> after all supersoakers provide constant pressure output
21:22 < QuantumG> and these days you probably could come up with an elastic bladder that is cheaper than slosh baffles, maybe
21:23 < QuantumG> cheaper == less mass
21:23 < genehacker> you probably wouldn't need any control valves either
21:23 < genehacker> err... pressure regulators
21:24 -!- Juul [n=Juul@h55eb1609.dkkoost.sta.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:27 < QuantumG> in a way, you can see why LLNL was denied funding for this project
21:27 < QuantumG> to a rocket engineer, it's madness
21:27 < genehacker> why?
21:27 < genehacker> it's too good to be true?
21:28 < genehacker> dammit pretty much everything to make this rocket is on the market
21:28 < QuantumG> "you can't use tanks that thin for structure, they'll melt."
21:28 < genehacker> ???
21:28 < QuantumG> "pumps are not reliable enough for what you're claiming."
21:29 < QuantumG> the response of uhhh.. that's the freakin' point.. it flies in the face of conventional wisdom.. would be about as effective as screaming at a brick wall.
21:30 -!- technologiclee [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:31 < QuantumG> just too many innovations for a government program.
21:32 < kanzure> hello technologiclee 
21:32 < genehacker> now how to make that special rocket nozzle...
21:32 < genehacker> and pump
21:32 < kanzure> http://www.uic.edu/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/viewArticle/2670/2366 Open source enters the world of atoms: a statistical analysis of open design.
21:33 < kanzure> http://open-innovation-projects.org/
21:33 < kanzure> how does an academic group have a better template?
21:33 -!- technologiclee [n=l@70.114.201.242] has left #hplusroadmap []
21:33 < QuantumG> there was nothing special about the nozzle
21:35 -!- technologiclee [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:35 < kanzure> hello technologiclee 
21:36 < genehacker> hmmm... now there are special carbon nanotube H2O2 catalysts that'd work great for the gas generator 
21:37 < QuantumG> url?
21:37 < genehacker> I learnt it from a talk
21:37 < QuantumG> hmm interesting
21:37 < genehacker> carbon nanotubes grown in arrays on something decompose H2O2 more efficiently than other catalyst
21:37 < genehacker> no word on catalyst life though
21:38 < technologiclee> http://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+nanotube+H2O2+catalysts
21:38 < QuantumG> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TWD-4RY8SS5-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1116390340&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a8f0be5dedf90aaf234b6ad40a7a034d
21:38 < kanzure> http://letsevo.com/
21:38 < technologiclee> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=carbon nanotube H2O2 catalysts
21:43 < technologiclee> http://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+nanotubes+grown+in+arrays+on+something+decompose+H2O2+more+efficiently+than+other+catalyst
21:43 < genehacker> http://www.cm.utexas.edu/keith_stevenson
21:44 < genehacker> I think it was one of these
21:49 < genehacker> thing is that carbon nanotubes have so much surface area
21:50 < genehacker> saw a talk by that guy
21:54 < genehacker> but he said something about using carbon nanotubes as a H2O2 catalyst
21:57 < genehacker> damn I'll have to find my notes
21:57 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-69-148-69-156.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:59 < genehacker> found it
21:59 < genehacker> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TG0-4RBYD3P-1&_user=108429&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1116411407&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000059713&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=108429&md5=3c435abc57ce33baf5ab80cf2eef2f84
22:00 < genehacker> Nevertheless, HRP/N-CNT composites are more sensitive
22:00 < genehacker> to the addition of H2O2 than HRP/CNT, though we believe
22:00 < genehacker> this result is partially due to the previously demonstrated ability
22:00 < genehacker> of our N-CNTs to catalytically decompose H2O2.
22:00 < QuantumG> any ref?
22:00 < genehacker> nitrogenated carbon nanotubes break down H2O2
22:01 < genehacker> I don't know how well, but supposedly it's better
22:01 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:02 < genehacker> he said the horseradish peroxidase turned out to be unnecessary
22:06 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h209n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:08 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:09 -!- flamt__ [n=root@70.50.178.43] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:16 -!- flamt_ [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1178020538.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:20 -!- flamt [n=root@70.49.146.50] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:27 -!- flamt__ [n=root@70.50.178.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:29 < genehacker> QuantumG got any links to papers on that pump?
22:30 < QuantumG> https://www.llnl.gov/etr/pdfs/07_94.2.pdf  is about it I think.
22:31 < QuantumG> http://www.xcor.com/products/pumps/index.html   says they got a technology transfer.. which means it was secret.
22:32 < genehacker> damn
22:32 < QuantumG> but I expect all the secrecy is in the words "sliding seals"
22:32 < genehacker> so nothing descrbing it
22:32 < genehacker> I think I got an idea of how to do that
22:33 < QuantumG> yeah, I don't think it is all that complicated.. if you look at the picture of the pump in the mockingbird.pdf you'll see how it works.. schematically.. how you make good sliding seals might even be well known now
22:33 < QuantumG> s/picture/diagram/
22:34 < genehacker> not sure how to do it at high pressure though
22:36 < genehacker> some sort of flexible diaphragm
22:37 < genehacker> nah looks like your typical piston pump
22:38 < genehacker> unless they did something weird
22:43 < genehacker> like a rolamite piston
22:47 < QuantumG> its LLNL, you know they did
22:49 < genehacker> that'd change the whole design they showed
22:50 < genehacker> I got a weird idea for a sliding seal, but I'm not sure how one could make it...
22:50 < genehacker> it'd have to be made of some sort of elastomer
22:54 < genehacker> and they didn't use elastomers
22:54 -!- any39759740 [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:55 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-217-212.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
22:55 -!- any39759740 is now known as katsmeow
22:56 < QuantumG> http://midnight.caltech.edu/steve/publications/5.pdf  is the CNF h2o2 decomposition paper btw
23:10 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:14 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:15 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:16 -!- Overand [i=overand@crappy.domain.name] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
23:16 < kanzure> fenn: i didn't tell him your phone number because i figure you hate the phone anyway
23:21 -!- Overand [i=overand@crappy.domain.name] has joined #hplusroadmap