--- Day changed Thu Dec 10 2009
00:01 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:51 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-41-71.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
00:54 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:22 -!- any37617078 is now known as katsmeow-afk
01:39 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
01:45 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:28 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-50-194.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:29 -!- nchaimov [n=cowtown@c-71-237-208-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:44 -!- nchaimov [n=cowtown@c-71-237-208-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
04:04 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-50-194.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
05:10 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
05:15 -!- Utopiah_ is now known as Utopiah
06:16 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:07 -!- faceface [n=dmb@bioinformatics.org] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:13 < faceface> are these guys any good? http://www.clubofrome.org/eng/home
08:13 < faceface> (the club of rome)
08:16 -!- fface [i=c2b0692a@gateway/web/freenode/x-nlqjprlozfnebjpx] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:18 < faceface> HEY HEY
08:18 < faceface> I mean, hi lenny
08:18 -!- WHOIS [i=c2b0692a@gateway/web/freenode/x-xadaavxfczemnvmj] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:18 -!- WHOIS [i=c2b0692a@gateway/web/freenode/x-xadaavxfczemnvmj] has quit [Client Quit]
08:19 < faceface> fface: now chose your own nick
08:19  * faceface <wipsers>he's not competent to work a kbd
08:20 < faceface> type at the bottom somewher
08:20 < faceface> type at the bottom somewhere
08:21 < faceface> off bottom in deed
08:21 < fface> I can haz words!
08:21  * faceface praizes
08:21 < fface> Now what happens?
08:21 < faceface> so the people in this channel like to talk about projects related to transhumanism
08:21 < faceface> and there are other channels where you can discuss other topics
08:21 < fface> When do the chicks get here.
08:22 < faceface> soon soon
08:22 < Utopiah> faceface: supposed to be very influencial on the political scene, nowadays... I can't say
08:22 < faceface> its early in the morning in the US
08:22 < fface> and the drugs
08:22 < faceface> Utopiah: who?
08:22 < faceface> fface: yes
08:22 < faceface> fface: type "/nick something more original"
08:22 < faceface> fface: type "/nick something_more_original"
08:22 < fface> I want future drugs.
08:22 < faceface> fface: I believe that that topic is valid in here
08:23 < Utopiah> faceface: the club of rome
08:23 < faceface> i.e. what to take if you want to work 20 hours out of 24
08:23 < faceface> oh right
08:23 < Utopiah> if you want to work 20h/24h you might wnat to check #polyphasers 
08:23 -!- fface is now known as lemonface
08:23 < faceface> fface: type "/join #polyphasers"
08:24 < faceface> lemonface: try again
08:24 < faceface> Utopiah: I just wondered if they were worth paying attention to 
08:24 < faceface> like the copenhagen consensus centre
08:25 < faceface> anyone seen this? http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v462/n7274/full/462722a.html
08:25 < faceface> A guide to the day of big data
08:26 < faceface> so lemonface you see that this is better than wave right?
08:26 < faceface> I mean, you must see that?
08:26 < faceface> well... I got to work
08:27 < faceface> l8r
08:28 < faceface> lemonface: don't worry
08:28 < faceface> everyone here is friendly
08:28 < faceface> ahem.... 
08:28 < faceface> mostly
08:28 < Utopiah> ahem
08:28 < lemonface> faceface: wave, at present, sucks.
08:28 < faceface> but the worst they will do is hack your cyberbrain and make you do unspeakable acts
08:28 < faceface> true that
08:29 < lemonface> is that all, the Russians already did that
08:34 -!- lemonface [i=c2b0692a@gateway/web/freenode/x-nlqjprlozfnebjpx] has quit []
08:36 < Utopiah> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6tQiJq9pQA
08:38 < faceface> nice
08:39 < Utopiah> LeWeb main stage, start-up competition demos http://www.ustream.tv/channel/le-web-main-stage
09:36 < kanzure> "Saw my Afghan neighbor Abdul on 5th flr balcony shaking a carpet & shouted up to him,"What's up Abdul, won't it start?""
09:39 -!- strages [n=strages@76.29.231.141] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
09:40 < kanzure> http://blog.synthetos.com/magnetic-linear-encoder-and-it-works/
09:48 < kanzure> oh he's the one doing contraptor? http://www.flickr.com/photos/31697990@N00/sets/72157622475596037/
09:52 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:58 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit ["No Ping reply in 180 seconds."]
09:58 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:19 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:28 -!- mason_l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:28 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:34 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
10:34 -!- mason_l is now known as mason-l
11:07 -!- ybit2 [i=48922fa5@gateway/web/freenode/x-lrpwnnwtoesxarfj] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:32 < kanzure> hm i need to outline the skdb documentation thingy that marcin wanted me to write
12:11 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-41-71.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:11 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-41-71.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Client Quit]
12:12 < faceface> Utopiah: I just tuned in
12:12 < faceface> weird
12:12 < faceface> !
12:33 < kanzure> hi faceface 
12:33 < kanzure> who is the friend you brought in here? :)
12:40 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:44 -!- ybit2 [i=48922fa5@gateway/web/freenode/x-lrpwnnwtoesxarfj] has quit ["Page closed"]
12:50 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:14 < kanzure> jata wrote a piece for h+ magazine: http://cp.revolio.com/issue/5039/45
13:14 < kanzure> it's not all that interesting.. unless you're new to the internet.
13:53 < kanzure> http://www.ehowa.com/features/acetyleneleak.shtml "Ernie, I got this today and had to send it on to you. Result of leaking acetylene bottle stored in plumbers van. Accidently ignited by activating a remote door lock device. Enjoy, Tyson"
14:40 < kanzure> ack i've been blogged :(
14:40 < kanzure> http://diybio.org/2009/12/10/bryan-bishop-reports-from-hplus-summit-2009/
14:43 < kanzure> hm there's two stories back-to-back on diybio.org on transhumanism
14:43 < kanzure> what's going on here?
14:45 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/nbt/index.html
14:56 < kanzure> http://createitreal.com/
15:16 -!- wulfdesign [n=chatzill@christy.violato.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:21 < kanzure> hey wulfdesign 
15:22 < wulfdesign> heys
15:23 < kanzure> what's up?
15:24 < wulfdesign> not much, just checking out chatzilla, Makerbot, and RepRap irc.
15:24 < kanzure> you smell like a windows developer
15:25 < kanzure> :)
15:25 < wulfdesign> not really.
15:25 < kanzure> oh wait that's violato.net
15:25 < kanzure> who are you then?
15:26 < kanzure> "dicky leonardo" ?
15:26 < wulfdesign> 3d design and print.
15:27 < kanzure> neat
15:27 < wulfdesign> part of seattle's H+ group.
15:28 < kanzure> i wasn't aware that they had a group
15:28 < kanzure> have you checked out my transcripts from h+ summit 2009?
15:28 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/hplus-summ
15:28 < kanzure> er
15:28 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2009/
15:29 < wulfdesign> nope, checking it out now though...
15:29 < kanzure> i also presented: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg
15:35 < wulfdesign> cool, civilization seed eh? just gave a small talk at our local H+ group about DIY space (getting into orbit without NASA)
15:36 < kanzure> you're in the right channel :)
15:36 < wulfdesign> need to watch the rest of the video, back in ~10 min.
15:36 < kanzure> there's two other parts btw.. 
15:36 < kanzure> part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S9z6H_EFqQ
15:36 < kanzure> part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edl6uFn3_g4 (super short, just 2min extra that i couldn't fit on the last one)
15:37 < Utopiah> http://www.cubesat.org/
15:37 < kanzure> yep
15:37 < kanzure> man it's kind of lame that my 2007 links on diy space tech are still valid.. i mean, that there hasn't been much else
15:39 < Utopiah> sth more specific than http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks-old2//Space/index.html#32 ?
15:39 < kanzure> no that's it
15:39 < kanzure> er wait
15:40 < kanzure> there was a list of teams
15:43 < kanzure> huh i wonder where i put these links
15:49 < wulfdesign> that was frick'en cool kanzure. I was putting forth that we need to 'Open Source' the technology we need to get into space. good to see there are other people on the same page. 
15:50 < wulfdesign> familiar with cube sat (online research only)
15:51 < wulfdesign> need to watch the other 2 vids...
16:03 < kanzure> so in particular there's been a lot more development that wasn't highlighted in the videos
16:04 < kanzure> we have lots of code written, but what we need most are CAD models (not STL) and information about different standards for parts and components
16:04 < kanzure> i also need to write a small manual or something :p
16:07 < wulfdesign> there was a lot of cool, stuff. some of it I'm familiar with, some not.
16:11 < wulfdesign> we just started an hacker/maker space in seattle. looks like we'll be starting to teach classes in January.
16:12 < wulfdesign> I'll me teaching workshops in 3d design and print (I've got a Makerbot).
16:12 < kanzure> cool, then you might be interested in the open source hardware / transhumanism co-op we're building
16:12 < wulfdesign> yep, where
16:12 < kanzure> basically the idea is to leverage all of these hackerspaces around the globe
16:12 < kanzure> nowhere in particular- it's on the net mainly right now
16:12 < wulfdesign> yep, rigtht there with you.
16:13 < kanzure> members of the co-op help package up open source hardware
16:13 < wulfdesign> yep,
16:13 < kanzure> this way, users can get to what they want to be doing: making stuff.. not worrying about compatibility, feasibility, or where or what tools to get
16:13 < wulfdesign> I'm trying to work on that locally.
16:13 < wulfdesign> the hack spaces that is.
16:13 < kanzure> it would be great if the seattle space would like to join the co-op. joining at the moment doesn't really mean much other than wanting to keep tuned in with updates :p
16:14 < wulfdesign> I'm a part of two artist/maker co-ops currently.
16:14 < kanzure> ah cool
16:14 < kanzure> tell me about them
16:15 < wulfdesign> Jigsaw Renaissance just got a space in the last couple of weeks, it was born out of Seattle's H+ group. 
16:17 < wulfdesign> the other is a Viking Metal Foundry in Ballard (Seattle). they cast bronze. I've actually have a work space there of the first of next year.
16:18 < wulfdesign> I  also started a WiFi co-op for the marina I live in. we all pitched in and bought business class dsl. that's been gouing on for about 5 years.
16:21 < wulfdesign> I think Jigsaw will be teaching (outreach) classes by next month.
16:22 < wulfdesign> Seattle H+ facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=45185947838
16:23 < wulfdesign> http://www.jigsawrenaissance.org/
16:24 < wulfdesign> the fire foundry is more local, but has some of the same ideal, DIY, distributed, boot strap, ect.
16:25 < wulfdesign> I got to take off for a bit. back later.
16:26 < wulfdesign> thanks Kanzure for the links.
16:35 -!- rmond [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:35 < Utopiah> ( Artscience : Creativity in the Post-Google Generation by David Edwards http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/EDWART.html )
16:44 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-231-141.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:53 < Utopiah> (seems their related "innovation lab" either didn't last as long as most hacker space or at least didn't communicate after their opening...)
16:56 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-41-71.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:09 < kristianpaul> Utopiah: http://kefir.wikidot.com/
17:10 < Utopiah> thanks
17:11 < Utopiah> heard about it few weeks ago actually
17:23 < genehacker> hmmmm... they should at nitrate bacteria for producing gun powder to section weapons
17:23 < genehacker> you can grow em in fishtanks
17:23 < genehacker> sans fish
17:32 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-41-71.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
17:33 -!- wulfdesign_ [n=chatzill@christy.violato.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:47 -!- wulfdesign [n=chatzill@christy.violato.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:54 < kanzure> http://www.cubespawn.com/ called me
17:54 < kanzure> he wants to do standard form factors for manufacturing equipment
18:02 < kanzure> and throw in standard controllers and connections for power, etc.
18:03 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-53-14.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:05 -!- Rick_P [n=Rick_P@cpe-76-190-203-110.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:10 < wulfdesign_> sweet deal with the cubespawn stuff. I like their form factor.
18:11 -!- drgone [n=drgone@gir.seattlewireless.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:12 < wulfdesign_> I've been looking at making a http://www.contraptor.org/ for my next cnc/printing platform.
18:12 < wulfdesign_> keep us informed how that goes, either on here or website.
18:15 < wulfdesign_> genehacker, wonder if you could use those nitrate bacteria for making rocket fuel. I know there is hydrazine (space shuttle fuel) in some poisonous mushrooms.
18:15 < wulfdesign_> as well...
18:16 -!- CubeSpawn [n=cubespaw@cpe-72-181-11-254.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:16 < CubeSpawn> Good evening, enhanced humans!
18:18 < genehacker> so it begins
18:18 < CubeSpawn> or continues...
18:18 < genehacker> do you have any CAD files?
18:18 < CubeSpawn> not as such...
18:19 < genehacker> that we can put into our open source hardware database of doom?
18:19 < CubeSpawn> sorry only sketchup at this point, I'll be converting to a less obscure format soon
18:20 < genehacker> wow
18:20 < wulfdesign_> greetings CubeSpawn. nice format btw.
18:20 < CubeSpawn> greetz wulf!
18:21 < wulfdesign_> nods
18:21 < genehacker> oh wulfdesign, it make much more sense to make H2O2 instead and use that and algal oil for propulsion
18:22 < genehacker> anyway CubeSpawn, your system uses all extruded aluminum bars correct?
18:22 < CubeSpawn> yup
18:23 < wulfdesign_> MakeBeam?
18:23 < genehacker> and you've been able to make a CNC machine, that is how accurate?
18:23 < wulfdesign_> MakerBeam
18:23 < CubeSpawn> that too, for the "little Cube-lettes"
18:25 < CubeSpawn> accuracy is poor, I think I'll be able to hold .001 in the prototype, hopefully better with subsequent versions
18:25 < genehacker> if the accuracy of the CNC machine is better than the accuracy of the extruded aluminum, you should really consider making an EDM cube for making spider-dies and associated extrusion equipment for making the extruded aluminum bar from aluminum
18:26 < CubeSpawn> looking at Prototype-->mark 1-->Mark 2--Acceptable CNC
18:28 < CubeSpawn> well the goal is to fit a whole spectrum of small CNC stuff into standard cubes, get a system architecture thats community acceptable, then absorb improved designs into the distributed database
18:29 < genehacker> and do cool flexible manufacturing stuff like is currently done in industry
18:30 < CubeSpawn> I'm not smart enough to build it all, just want to pull everyone to a standard "form factor" to speed up the overall adoption of home-fab/distributed manufacturing
18:30 < CubeSpawn> that way YOU build an EDM and I can bolt it up to my system - as well as downloading and making it on my mill
18:31 < genehacker> well a standard for flexible manufacturing would be good, as one of the problems in the field is the lack of standards(and programming the robots, that too...)
18:33 < wulfdesign_> cool. so you could mount a reprap Mendel in a cube to print parts, push them out to a pick and place cube, and assemble.
18:33 < wulfdesign_> ?
18:33 < CubeSpawn> I believe that the working envelope on the first prototypes is pretty small - but a lot of useful parts are pretty small - so it works out - and a small cube can make parts for bigger cubes - because "Y" is unconstrained for length
18:33 < CubeSpawn> yes exactly
18:34 < CubeSpawn> the 3 axis preliminary cube has 2 accessory cubes attached:
18:34 < wulfdesign_> if you need bigger parts you can always build a bigger cube, or make a bigger y axis. (like cubeSat)
18:34 < CubeSpawn> a toolchanger for the milling spindle, and a head changer - so it can BE a RepStrap
18:35 < kanzure> hello evil minions
18:35 < wulfdesign_> cool.
18:35 < CubeSpawn> not a big leap from there to make the 3 axis a 5 axis mill
18:36 < kanzure> hey Rick_P 
18:36 < kanzure> hey drgone 
18:36 < kanzure> hm who are all these people
18:36 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 34 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 34 normal]
18:36 < CubeSpawn> minions, perhaps?
18:37 < genehacker> well we got the CubeSpawn guy here, I don't know why they're all here
18:37 < genehacker> perhaps that presentation of yours is propagating through the blogosphere?
18:38 < kanzure> ybit: is the .deb ready?
18:38 < wulfdesign_> there was a post on Makerbot forums, that's how I found the place. 
18:38 < CubeSpawn> afk a short while, brb
18:42 < kanzure> genehacker: do you still have those links to the multiple mini cnc routers?
18:42 < kanzure> i think there's a folder in the papers/ directory on /var/www/ on adl
18:42 < kanzure> minituarization is a neat concept, especially from a transhuman perspective
18:42 < genehacker> this is annoying, my favorite music streaming website decides to go bankrupt before I can get my music off of it
18:43 < kanzure> because you don't really need /big/ lab equipment 
18:43 < genehacker> oh yeah
18:43 < genehacker> somewhere
18:43 < CubeSpawn> back,
18:43 < kanzure> but you do need big equipment if you want to do mass production.. however, mass production isn't actually the goal (is it?)
18:43 < genehacker> I think in my huge bookmark list
18:43 < kanzure> when are you going to share that list?
18:43 < genehacker> it can be the goal
18:44 < genehacker> sure, but I don't think very many of those things actually worked
18:44 < kanzure> what things?
18:44 < CubeSpawn> the ability to di it at all takes precedent, THEN being able to do it on volume comes in - then doing it fast is next
18:44 < genehacker> I still want a milling machine that can fit in my backpack though
18:44 < wulfdesign_> distributed manufacturing...
18:44 < genehacker> machining centers do it all and very fast
18:44 < kanzure> to be honest i'm not a big fan of distributed manufacturing
18:44 < kanzure> i mean, i don't dislike it
18:45 < kanzure> but it seems perpendicular to what i want to do
18:45 < kanzure> to me it is already distributed.. distributed away from me :(
18:45 < genehacker> ha
18:45 < genehacker> blast
18:46 < genehacker> link rot
18:46 < wulfdesign_> ahh.. distributed manufacturing... for large quantities. but you could do everything in house yourself.
18:46 < CubeSpawn> machining centers do it well, but thier costly and heavy, and can't male themselves, mostly...
18:46 < kanzure> wulfdesign_: if you're going to do everything in house, why not make it "small"?
18:46 < CubeSpawn> *make
18:46 < genehacker> there's a reason why they're heavy
18:46 < CubeSpawn> understood
18:46 < kanzure> because fenn hasn't finished hextatic?
18:46 < genehacker> it's so the machines are stiff enough not to deform under load
18:47 < genehacker> yeah or the NIST hasn't finished the hexapod
18:47 < kanzure> that's just because people don't know how to distribute loads properly
18:47 < genehacker> or because we don't have carbon nanotube composites
18:47 < kanzure> fenn: are you awake?
18:47 < kanzure> we don't need CNT composites
18:47 < genehacker> stiffness has to do with the youngs modulus of the material used
18:48 < genehacker> young's modulus is a fundamental property of a material that can't be increased with various processing techniques only decreased
18:48 < kanzure> does anyone know where iceweasel/firefox puts its locks? there's no other process running but it claims there is
18:48 < genehacker> it depends on the attractive forces between atoms
18:48 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/machines/index.php?hexegrity
18:49 < wulfdesign_> in the H+ video used geodesic structures to provide rigidity (triangles make things more stable) 
18:49 < CubeSpawn> well in the mid-term - I'll settle for being able to machine in my garage with cheap, light gear - even if its slow, and I can't cut over .015 a pass
18:49 < kanzure> well that's what i'm wondering about, CubeSpawn 
18:49 < kanzure> first, if you manufacture small stuff, you need a slightly different toolset
18:49 < kanzure> so would it be more convenient to manufacture with the "standard sizes" 
18:49 < kanzure> because there's stuff floating around out there
18:49 < genehacker> that's good enough cubespawn
18:49 < kanzure> or are we equally screwed in either case, and might as well make things small?
18:50 < kanzure> for instance, instead of a 5 foot lathe, how about one that fits in your backpack?
18:50 < CubeSpawn> everything in my system wil be buyable first, then self manufactured - I can't re-create the vast infrastructure of civilization all at once
18:51 < wulfdesign_> yea, just one step at a time.
18:51 < kanzure> makes sense
18:51 < kanzure> wulfdesign_: in particular i'm thinking of transhuman projects on my todo list
18:51 < genehacker> kanzure don't you have my bookmark list?
18:51 < kanzure> no
18:51 < kanzure> wulfdesign_: there's no reason to do them in mass volume. just make one-offs for yourself (but make them to the specs/designs)
18:52 < genehacker> you do I gave it to you
18:52 < kanzure> when?
18:52 < genehacker> http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=6RY1AAAAEBAJ&dq=rotary+pneumatic+motor
18:52 < genehacker> Oh I did find this though
18:53 < genehacker> some time ago
18:53 < genehacker> seems my links to mini cnc machines have died
18:53 < CubeSpawn> so the cubes start out with a light mill, we make the more expensive parts for additional cubes with that, and use software compensation to push the accuracy as high as possible
18:53 < kanzure> have you read gingery's books?
18:53 < CubeSpawn> my first cube is 500mm to keep cost down
18:53 < genehacker> here's what I googled to find them: any combination of mini, micro, cnc, mill, milling machine
18:54 < CubeSpawn> actually only a couple
18:54 < CubeSpawn> the vacuum former book, and something else - been a while
18:54 < kanzure> ok just making sure
18:54 < genehacker> well I'm not sure how far you can take software, but if you have infinite computational power anything is possible I guess
18:54 < genehacker> I need to get some gingery books
18:54 < kanzure> genehacker: i gave you a link to download them
18:55 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/gingery.zip has everything i think
18:55 < genehacker> heh, manipulating the machines vibrations in such a way as to get the right shape
18:55 < genehacker> I think I might get some meatspace gingery books in case of zombie apocalypse
18:57 < kanzure> i need to restart Xorg, brb
18:57 < genehacker> http://www.gizmag.com/go/7346/
18:57 < CubeSpawn> have you guys gone and looked? www.cubespawn.com
18:57 < genehacker> here's something that might be useful for tiny machining
18:57 < wulfdesign_> yep, already knew about you as soon as your website came up.
18:57 < wulfdesign_> grins
18:58 < genehacker> I know some japanese company uses a machine to make tiny tiny molds for tiny tiny anime robots
18:58 < genehacker> *err the process
18:58 < genehacker> http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/310730/plastic_circuits_make_tougher_greener_computers
18:59 < CubeSpawn> it (will perpetually) needs work and I'm no copy writer so we can only hope for improvement over time
18:59 < kanzure> CubeSpawn: have you seen http://replab.org/ ? i think sam putman threw it up
18:59 < kanzure> http://openmanufacturing.org/ is another good resource
18:59 < CubeSpawn> erik de bruijn actually
19:00 < kanzure> erik hasn't talked with me yet even though we've been running into each other since late 2008
19:00 < kanzure> oh well
19:00 < genehacker> well look what I found
19:00 < genehacker> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/c3d5d8d4cfb18b7e/4883d10523732268?lnk=gst&q=milling+machine#4883d10523732268
19:01 < CubeSpawn> I emailed him - seems like a nice chap - I looked up a dutch joke and added it to the end of an email as an ice breaker
19:02 < genehacker> erik de bruijn's a reprap guy, I think he might even be part of the reprap core group
19:02 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:02 < CubeSpawn> yep early adopter, big time promoter of it
19:03 < genehacker> http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.rim.or.jp%2F~hide-i%2Ftools%2Ftools.html&sl=auto&tl=en
19:04 < genehacker> here's the palmtop cnc machine
19:04 < genehacker> it doesn't look like it works though
19:04 < kanzure> aha it's in ~/.mozilla/firefox/<randomcrap>/.parentlock
19:04  * kanzure fixed it
19:06 < genehacker> I'd really like to have a working milling machine that could fit in my backpack that would be really accurate and capable of cutting metal
19:06 < genehacker> or at the very least wax
19:06 < CubeSpawn> well just as ANOTHER cubespawn plug, if you assemble little cubes in bigger ones, and the onscreen process stays the same regardless of scale - how small could you go before the materials handling physics changed to much to do the work?
19:07 < genehacker> my original idea for doing something like this would be to use CD drive linear actuators and probe to do really accurate electrochemical machining
19:07 < genehacker> well what's your cutting process?
19:09 < CubeSpawn> and try this: if each cube can make the components for the next larger size (which they could) then how small of a cube is reasonable to start with to build a new facility?
19:10 < genehacker> there comes a point where traditional cutting processes start to get inaccurate
19:10 < CubeSpawn> would depend in the materials of course but machining aluminum probably has a lower reasonable threshhld
19:11 < CubeSpawn> actually one of the early projects I'd like to get past theoretical is to get an open source linear motor design in circulation
19:12 < genehacker> you know they make lenses for DVD/bluray/optical media readers by really really accurate milling machines
19:12 < genehacker> reprap could really use a linear motor too
19:13 < CubeSpawn> for the 500mm cubes this would simplify building the motion part of things, potentially improve accuracy, and simplify things mechanically
19:13 < genehacker> be nice to make one with air bearings
19:13 < genehacker> well I'm not so sure about accuracy though
19:14 < CubeSpawn> if well designed they have very accuratly sensed positioning
19:15 < CubeSpawn> http://www.compumotor.com/whitepages/linearmotorarticle.pdf
19:16 < genehacker> how accurate?
19:17 < CubeSpawn> according to this article 1 micron resolution
19:18 < genehacker> pretty fair
19:18 < genehacker> now how do you make them?
19:18 < CubeSpawn> coil winder and a milling machine
19:19 < CubeSpawn> series of staggered coils stacked between 2 plates
19:20 < CubeSpawn> decent picture here : http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/ph/p/id/133
19:20 < genehacker> and there's no need to make precision milled motion guides?
19:20 < CubeSpawn> usually linear bearings - need to be ground
19:20 < genehacker> and you have a way of making those?
19:21 < CubeSpawn> allow me to show you over here to the surface grinding cube.....  no. not yet
19:21 < genehacker> looks a bit expensive, don't you have to have a hall effect sensors?
19:21 < genehacker> grinding hmmm... 
19:22 < kanzure> yeah a linear motor would be nice :)
19:22 < kanzure> the openservo project is halfway fail
19:23 < genehacker> if you had to I guess you could use toothpaste and a rag to do that...
19:23 < genehacker> might take a while
19:24 < genehacker> linear motors are nice, but they're a bit resource intensive, an open stepper motor might make more sense at this stage
19:24 < CubeSpawn> well back to the earlier comment - one step at a time - the 3 axis cnc prototype is assembled on salvage priced 15mm ballscrews, I'm trying to select a path that will be 100% recursive - and fortunatly I can do it from the existing huge store of readily available components and technologies
19:25 < CubeSpawn> it won't happen in the first step, or the first 1000
19:25 < kanzure> people tend to be bad at selecting recursive paths or replicable paths
19:25 < kanzure> do you have a particular metric you can share?
19:26 < genehacker> well in order to get 100% replication with store bought components and conventional assembly techniques you need smart robots 
19:26 < kanzure> what?
19:26 < genehacker> smart robots need chips
19:26 < kanzure> what does smart have to do with it?
19:26 < CubeSpawn> but our combined efforts can pull this huge existing store of stuff out of the old world of control and into the world of open source - if we're relentless about it
19:26 < kanzure> yep
19:27 < genehacker> and fortunately there is a push for lights out computer chip fabs
19:27 < kanzure> genehacker: chips aren't magical. also if mm-scale circuits are too wonky we can always do analog electronics
19:27 < CubeSpawn> oh I agree there a hugely superflous variation in current manufacturing practice
19:27 < genehacker> which could close the loop
19:28 < genehacker> how do you make the laser for the laser rangefinders that jigless assembly robots need?
19:29 < CubeSpawn> if a lot of people pick a standard, put some hardcore effort into it I can see VLSI level IC's in the garage in 3-5 years
19:29 < genehacker> anyway I have to go, here's an old tome from high precision machinists: "on a mill, everything is a thermometer"
19:29 < kanzure> well remember the chips originated from garages in the first place
19:30 < kanzure> er, or at least some of them did
19:30 < genehacker> don't forget the maskless lithography process that uses a MEMS chip that was made with 70s era fab equipment...
19:31 < wulfdesign_> see ya gene.
19:32 < CubeSpawn> See ya!
19:35 < CubeSpawn> anyhow, dinner calleth to me so I'll bbl! no taking over the world while I'm away!!
19:35 < kanzure> i'm busy hacking away at some code, don't worry 
19:36 < wulfdesign_> thanks Cube, 
19:37 < CubeSpawn> oh, main() 
19:37 < CubeSpawn> { 
19:37 < CubeSpawn>     printf("hello, world, Submit!\n"); 
19:37 < CubeSpawn> }
19:38 < CubeSpawn> later
19:39 < kanzure> "Lego also did a mosaic product for a while where you could upload an image and they would send you parts and instructions for making the image with 1x1 Lego plates."
19:39 -!- maxbots [n=kvirc@c-98-237-212-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:40 < kanzure> hey maxbots 
19:40 < maxbots> Howdy
19:40 < maxbots> Saw this groupl mentioned in the makerbot Yahoo group, thought I'd see what it's about. :-)
19:41 < kanzure> our main project was recently featured in a video
19:41 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg
19:41 < maxbots> thx
19:41 < kanzure> the idea is to make hardware "downloadable"-- think of thingiverse on steroids and instructables mated with a cluestick
19:42 < maxbots> cool
19:47 < wulfdesign_> hmm... I wonder if you could have a 'local' parts lister. something that would search what parts you are looking for and find a local source for them.
19:48 < kanzure> yes
19:48 < kanzure> so, first of all, there's a website in the code repository that we're working on to take advantage of all this software
19:49 < kanzure> one idea is to let the user type up their inventory
19:49 < kanzure> and then map it to pre-existing packages
19:49 < kanzure> so that we can then figure out how they can build something based off of what they already have
19:49 < kanzure> or what they have to build in between where they are now and where they want to be
19:50 < kanzure> another idea is that next to every package there's a "make" button but also a "buy" button
19:50 < kanzure> not everyone wants to make their own screws :)
19:50 < wulfdesign_> if businesses opened up their inventory database to search against. it would help bring them out as well.
19:50 < kanzure> so there are certain "outs"
19:50 < kanzure> yeah that's actually one of the problems.. a lot of people have really terrible data
19:50 < kanzure> octopart.org is the only thing happening in that scene really
19:52 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-53-14.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:52 < wulfdesign_> yea, tell me about it (databases). I came from being a dba (many years back).
19:52 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit ["leaving"]
19:52 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:52 < kanzure> oh so you're pure evil :-)
19:52 < wulfdesign_> not any more. I found salvation in open source.
19:53 < wulfdesign_> only with Xerox for a few years....
19:53 < wulfdesign_> before chapter 11...
19:55 < kanzure> wulfdesign_: are you a programmer?
19:55 < kanzure> i'd love to show you around the skdb source code some time
19:55 < wulfdesign_> no. I have programmed in the past. but don't consider myself a programmer. skill set is a few years old.
19:55 < wulfdesign_> sure thing.
19:56 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/ is some of the code laying around
19:56 < wulfdesign_> I'm more of a hack than a programmer.
19:56 < kanzure> :)
19:56 < kanzure> oh btw does anyone know of (1) an osx guy who can help get a .dmg for skdb made, or (2) how to get osx running under vmware?
19:56 < wulfdesign_> I have the ability to make things work, but mostly it's my voodoo skills.
19:57 < wulfdesign_> no, but will keep my eyes open.
19:59 < wulfdesign_> python? been meaning to pick that up. skeinforge uses it. be nice to hack my own code. I like it when I can get programs to do redundant work.
20:00 < kanzure> yep it's all in python
20:10 < wulfdesign_> what (open) format do you want designs in?
20:13 < ybit> step
20:13 < kanzure> IGES, STEP, not STL
20:13 < kanzure> my eye hurts
20:14 < ybit> pythonocc 0.4 is being released in about a week
20:15 < ybit> thhis coming from thomas paviot
20:16 < kanzure> i find it funny that he had the same problems i did with taking screenshots without X11
20:16 < kanzure> also how he completely ignored my notes on the topic :(
20:19 < wulfdesign_> with either IGES, STEP. is both better? or either one... I'm using Rhino3d. which is proprietary. unfortunately I'm having trouble getting Open Source software to work on my current (old) computer system
20:20 < kanzure> hm
20:20 < kanzure> in general i've found that i can convert from iges->step and from step->iges
20:20 < wulfdesign_> I think I could provide both. let me look.
20:21 < kanzure> for something in particular?
20:21 < ybit> wulfdesign_: step's cad spec was intended as a replacement for iges, so step is preferred
20:21 < kanzure> ybit: other way around i think
20:21 < ybit> nope
20:21 < kanzure> right?
20:21 < kanzure> hrm
20:21 < kanzure> but nobody has the STEP docs
20:22 < ybit> The development of STEP started in 1984 as a successor of IGES, SET and VDA-FS [1]
20:23 < CubeSpawn> figgers, right after I dropped out of machining and cam the first time...
20:24 < CubeSpawn> just read through what here since I left - must all be pretty bust multitasking... ;-)
20:24 < ybit> yeavo
20:25 < CubeSpawn> crap the ole degenerative typing disorder is setting in - makes me sound COMLETLEY illiterate
20:26 -!- maxbots [n=kvirc@c-98-237-212-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:26 -!- maxbots [n=kvirc@c-98-237-212-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:28 < CubeSpawn> I see a bit of mention above about revealing the architecture, or philosophy or maybe what bones you cast into the pentagram that lead you to SKDB?
20:31 < CubeSpawn> I believe the cogent phrase was "show you around the source code sometime..."
20:31 < kanzure> oh lookie, it's made it to the web: http://harkopen.com/news/skdb-presentation-h-summit
20:32 < kanzure> CubeSpawn: yeah
20:32 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/ if you get bored of waiting and want to explore it on your own
20:32 < wulfdesign_> I just exported a test file from Rhino3d to IGES and STEP. When I re-imported them the IGES object was fragmented into all the surfaces and the STEP was a complete object.
20:32 < kanzure> unfortunately i'm about to be picked up to go to a meeting
20:32 < kanzure> wulfdesign_: huh. i haven't had those troubles with iges before. anyway, step it is :)
20:33 < wulfdesign_> so, at least with Rhino3d (version 3.0) STEP is the way to go.
20:33 < kanzure> fenn might show up, or you can pester ybit for details
20:33 < CubeSpawn> ah kewl, I'll explore, but I'll have lots of questions - are there any diagrams?
20:33 < kanzure> yeah there are many diagrams.. one sec
20:33 < kanzure> here's a recent presentation:
20:33 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/presentations/updates-from-austin.pdf
20:34 < kanzure> here's the one that was in the youtube video: http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/presentations/hplus-summit-2009/hplus-summit-2009-how-to-make.pdf
20:34 < CubeSpawn> kewl thanks
20:34 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb
20:34 < kanzure> anyway, i really do need to get around to writing about the architecture
20:35 < wulfdesign_> eh? I had my twitter feed turned off...
20:35 < kanzure> the core themes and concepts are: packages, git and distributed revision control, object serialization (YAML), units and physical dimensions, and stuff on the near horizon like dependency resolution (if i have x, y, z, how do i make a, b, c)
20:35 < CubeSpawn> I'd like to help - and as a noob - I'll ask questions your familiarity might blind you to
20:35 < kanzure> yay that's perfect
20:35 < kanzure> right now installing skdb is a pain in the ass except if you're on linux.. we need to fix this
20:36 < wulfdesign_> sure. some cross platform documentation...
20:36 < CubeSpawn> or wipe out all non linux users..oops it too early for that (he types from mirc on windows)
20:36 < wulfdesign_> I could maybe do that for windows since that is the platform I'm currently using.
20:37 < kanzure> there are some tricks that you can do on windows to make things move faster
20:37 < kanzure> for instance, there's a download for pythonocc from http://pythonocc.org/ meant specifically for windows users
20:37 < wulfdesign_> hey, MOST of my machines are Linux...
20:37 < kanzure> it includes python, pythonOCC, etc
20:37 < kanzure> oh
20:37 < kanzure> great then
20:37 < kanzure> i'd rather not have to deal with windows right now
20:39 < wulfdesign_> eh? I've Linux installed on one of my machines. I can use it for skdb. prob good idea to keep it up and VNC into it.
20:40 -!- Rick_P [n=Rick_P@cpe-76-190-203-110.neo.res.rr.com] has left #hplusroadmap []
20:40 < CubeSpawn> I run 4 out of 8 VMs at work that are linux flavored - cmon - the First computer I used was a trash 80 and I went to a PET after that, then Amiga - I only do microsoft as a digital prostitute
20:40 < kanzure> need to run.. who the heck schedules meetings for 9pm
20:40 < CubeSpawn> zombies...
20:41 < wulfdesign_> see ya
20:43 < CubeSpawn> ok guys gonna go swim in the technical literature - and bake some bread - makes the house smell great - and keeps the heating bill low
20:59 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-179-82.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:01 < Utopiah> http://knowfree.net/2009/12/universal-principles-of-design/
21:03 < CubeSpawn> thanks for the virus infested site utopiah
21:05 < Utopiah> CubeSpawn: eh... I recommend you use a proper system to browse the net
21:05 < katsmeow-afk> vim ?
21:05 < Utopiah> Vimperator is a good start yes ;)
21:06 < Utopiah> CubeSpawn: if you use Firefox http://noscript.net/ and http://adblockplus.org/ are pretty useful
21:07 < CubeSpawn> 3 script attacks - nothing gets through, but its not a "nice" neighborhood... ;-)
21:14 < ybit> uzbl ftw
21:15 < Utopiah> surfraw? well anyway point is you can go in dark place if you have the right tools ;)
21:15 < CubeSpawn> actually, I use IE in a VM - mainly since thats what I use at work - and its pretty foolproof - blow it up, and you can be running again in 2-3 minutes, tops ;-)
21:15 < CubeSpawn> I'm not an MS fan - just have to deal with it a lot
21:15 < ybit> yay http://www.jython.org/archive/21/docs/zxjdbc.html
21:16 < ybit> jdbc for jython, and it appears you can use jdbc directly without even having to use zxjdbc
21:23 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-179-82.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:43 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-165-82.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:54 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-165-82.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:57 -!- CubeSpawn [n=cubespaw@cpe-72-181-11-254.satx.res.rr.com] has quit []
22:07 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-165-82.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:08 < wulfdesign_> got to run
22:08 -!- wulfdesign_ [n=chatzill@christy.violato.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"]
23:19 < kanzure> interesting stuff on the openmoko: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1473068&cid=30383758
23:28 < fenn> rawr
23:28 < fenn> how am i supposed to read this huge scrollback
23:28 < kanzure> what do you think about cubespawn's idea of standardizing manufacturing equipment form factors
23:33 < genehacker> that's annoying
23:33 < genehacker> should be done
23:33 < kanzure> standardizing power, data, microcontrollers, minicomputers, etc. is understandable
23:33 < genehacker> not sure if it will succede
23:34 < kanzure> in personal computers, form factors are easy to enforce or standardize since it's all a matter of putting stuff in different places
23:34 < kanzure> in manufacturing sometimes people claim you really do need all that space
23:34 < genehacker> why minicomputers, why not just the data processing they do?
23:34 < kanzure> what?
23:34 < genehacker> the software
23:34 < kanzure> no the software has to run on something
23:36 < genehacker> anyway manufacturers of factory equipment tend to want their equipment to be only compatible with their equipment
23:37 < kanzure> fenn: the thing i'm worried about re: the paper is that i don't actually have anything to say
23:37 < kanzure> "well we tried to convert matt. that didn't work. uhh."
23:40 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-165-82.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:50 < fenn> re: cubespawn; ethercat is overkill for 99.99999% of all DIY manufacturing
23:51 < fenn> it's fucking retarded to make that the interconnection standard
23:51 < fenn> and it's sort of proprietary (sort of)
23:52 < kanzure> i'm more concerned about "everything's a cube! er, or at least should fit into that form factor"
23:52 < kanzure> i guess the size can scale up for bigger things
23:52 < kanzure> i'm no sizist (yet)
23:52 < fenn> anyway i dont really "get it"
23:53 < fenn> who cares if it fits into a cube
23:53 < fenn> that's the least of our problems
23:53 < kanzure> the guy is in san antonio btw and wants to meet with us.. er, me, at some point
23:54 < fenn> i understand for something like MUOL, but in a guy's basement the management overhead just isnt that high
23:54 < genehacker2> http://www.hitech.co.za/images/mazak_mazatorolfms_maschine.jpg
23:54 < genehacker2> maybe cubes aren't the way to go
23:54 < genehacker2> I'm wondering what he's going to do about the transfer system
23:55 < kanzure> why did computers come in a box originally?
23:55 < kanzure> there were two issues with "form factors" back in the day:
23:55 < fenn> what is a flexible manufacturing system and why should i care?
23:55 < kanzure> 1) whether or not they had the right interfaces (i.e. PCI)
23:55 < kanzure> 2) whether or not there's enough space in the box for a big giant board
23:55 < kanzure> but #2 is defeated by asking why it's in a box in the first place
23:55 < fenn> magnetic shielding, i guess
23:56 < genehacker2> a flexible manufacturing system is a manufacturing system designed to make multiple products
23:56 < kanzure> oh noes the bits on my floppy are going to be flipped? 
23:56 < genehacker2> or easily transition to making a different product
23:56 < fenn> genehacker2: what's wrong with a cnc machine with a pallet changer?
23:56 < genehacker2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_manufacturing_system
23:57 < genehacker2> that's a component of a flexible manufacturing system
23:57 < genehacker2> nothing is wrong with it
23:57 < fenn> it just seems to me that we could do it all in one cell, in which case the whole system is superfluous
23:57 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-165-82.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:58 < fenn> the only advantage is tool change time?
23:58 < fenn> no, i dont get it
23:59 < fenn> anyway t-slot sucks for machine tools
23:59 < genehacker2> are you going to do coordinate measuring and machining in one step