--- Day changed Wed Dec 16 2009
00:01 < ybit> fenn?
00:01 < kanzure> rawr
00:01 < kanzure> i don't think you sent it
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00:26 < ybit> okay, that saves me asking you to pillage through someone's crap
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02:42 < fenn> so now i have an honest-to-god timezone  excuse
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06:24 < jasonwohlfahrt> yo yo, bryan, you out there?
06:25 < jasonwohlfahrt> time to wake up and get to work!
06:35 < fenn> today i learned that in germany if you walk on the street wearing sandals and bathrobe, you will be arrested by the fashion police
06:35 < fenn> ybit: the drive didnt come with a sata power adapter
06:36 < fenn> i found one at noisebridge and pwned it
06:44 < jasonwohlfahrt> im getting a makerbot soon :)
06:45 < jasonwohlfahrt> your free to use, fenn
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06:57 < jasonwohlfahrt> my dad's going to tell his boss to get one at work too!
07:12 < fenn> today i walked all over the mission district, epoxy-painted a floor, rode a scooter, toured the robot rooms at UCSF, and cooked dumplings, wheee!
07:13 < fenn> anselm's DMD+microscope+photomultiplier-camera setup was pretty neat
07:14 < fenn> ok bedtime
07:17 < jasonwohlfahrt> sounds like fun. gnigh
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07:52 < jasonwohlfahrt> Wake up, Bryan! You've clearly slept too long!
07:58 < jasonwohlfahrt> We need to take a tour of my father's machine shop!
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08:15 < jasonwohlfahrt> bryan?
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10:33 < kanzure> http://brizzly-production.s3.amazonaws.com/1260932815/static/_imgs/public-bear-bird.gif 
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12:37 < Utopiah>  "I am attending U of T in the final year of my Engineering degree" http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/tor/881177993.html 
12:39 < Utopiah> (my bad, T for Toronto ;)
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15:59 < kanzure> http://www.artificialscarcity.com/
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16:43 < ybit> fenn: what are you doing in germany?
16:43 < ybit> did you take campbell up on his offer?
16:43 < ybit> oh, you're still in sf
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17:41 < kanzure> automately?
17:42 < genehacker2> *automatically
17:42 < kanzure> no as a name
17:48 < genehacker2> automately--
17:53 < QuantumG> autoMATE, he's your manufacturing pal who's fun to be with!
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18:29 < genehacker2> kanzure if you're on campus sometime visit a place called the Ransom center they have the principia mathematica...
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18:52 < genehacker2> as in a first edition of it and some other cool stuff
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19:10 < kanzure> finally: http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/ironman/
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20:50 < kanzure> hi fenn
20:51 < kanzure> hm i don't think that was you
20:53 < kanzure> ybit: any progress?
20:54 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 32 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 32 normal]
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21:21 < fenn> gosh that's a lot of netsplits
21:28 < kanzure> fenn: i need help doing things
21:30 < fenn> like what?
21:31 < kanzure> skdb documentation, figuring out if cubespawn actually needs me to do anything, pythonocc .deb, osx skdb compatibility bullshit
21:32 < kanzure> we have a lot of people responding to the videos but i don't really have any way to harness them
21:32 < kanzure> so i've been flooded
21:32 < kanzure> and doing too many things.. need someone.
21:33 < kanzure> responders include: randall, clif, kristian, drgone, xmission dood, erik evenson, opencario, james jones, russell hanson, rehmi, lee, but that's not including our normal folks (marcin) asking for stuffs
21:34 < kanzure> oh also another eric
21:37 < kanzure> matt wants to know if you want to write a part of the paper and slap your name on it or not. he's not expecting it but he wouldn't be opposed fyi
21:38  * fenn coughs
21:38 < fenn> where were all the people when i was bored to death
21:41 < kanzure> technologicle2 and i met up the other day. he showed me nanoengineer1
21:41 < fenn> do you know "martyn"?
21:41 < kanzure> not in my meetlog. don't know the name either.
21:41 < fenn> i'm talking with him in #noisebridge,  he's in austin setting up a hacker space at les's place :\
21:42 < kanzure> wtf
21:42 < QuantumG> nanoengineer1 is that nano CAD program ya?
21:42 < kanzure> QuantumG: yes. i don't understand it though.
21:42 < kanzure> oh so you can see atoms. big deal..
21:42 < QuantumG> ultimate in futility
21:42 < QuantumG> "we can design things we can't build!!"
21:43 < QuantumG> shit, I can do that on the macro scale
21:43 < kanzure> fenn: do you know anything else about that?
21:45 < ybit> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Crops_Kansas_AST_20010624.jpg
21:46 < QuantumG> so cool
21:47 < QuantumG> I see stuff like that whenever I fly
21:47 < QuantumG> and I think "imagine seeing that on an alien planet"
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21:50 < Martyn> Sure do
21:50 < Martyn> How /many/ Austin hackerspace people are here?
21:50 < fenn> do i know whurley?
21:50 < Martyn> William Hurley .. he organizes BarCampAustin, Linux against Poverty, that kind of thing
21:51 < kanzure> i know of him.
21:51 < kanzure> but he doesn't talk with me for some reason
21:51 < fenn> usually not more than 3 or 4
21:51 < Martyn> For those people who were/are interested in organizing a space .. is there a web page or group that you all still maintain?
21:52 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
21:52 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/atxfab
21:52 < kanzure> we even have a mailing list for les' shop
21:52 < kanzure> but he doesn't use it
21:52 < Martyn> Yes, but is that austin specific
21:52 < Martyn> ?
21:52 < kanzure> atxfab? yes
21:52 < Martyn> posting it to our google group now
21:53 < fenn> well there's no content on it anyway
21:53 < Martyn> *nod*
21:53 < Martyn> My original idea was to bring a blend of hackerspace/TechShop to the austin area after leaving SF
21:54 < Martyn> even had a business plan drawn up, but work keeps me so busy I didn't act on it
21:54 < kanzure> why a business
21:54 < Martyn> That's the way I operate
21:54 < kanzure> has les explained why techshop sucks?
21:54 < Martyn> I always start with a business, even if it's just a boutique business so I can offer the kind of protection an LLC has
21:55 < Martyn> Of course he has .. of course, TechShop is an operating business with now three quite successful locations.   It's hard to argue with that.
21:55 < kanzure> what does "successful" mean
21:55 < MrClif> Why does Techshop suck? Just courious.
21:55 < kanzure> MrClif: gym membership model :(
21:56 < Martyn> That doens't make it suck .. just makes it part of a model you may not like.
21:56 < MrClif> so you have to pay dues?
21:56 < kanzure> the model literally rips off the users
21:56 < kanzure> MrClif: yes but that's not why it sucks
21:56  * Martyn isn't going to get into this discussion
21:56 < MrClif> or does it average the cost for all users?
21:56 < QuantumG> how does it rip off the users?
21:56 < kanzure> suppose there are a certain number of machines
21:57 < fenn> the problem is they require each franchise to buy machines through their corporate headquarters
21:57 < kanzure> these machines tend to be costly and for some reason techshop is forcing you to buy their corporate brand from proprietary blah blah blah
21:57 < Martyn> MrClif : It gives the users access to equipment they couldn't possibly afford themselves at a fixed cost ($99-$125/mo) and offers classes on how to use them
21:57 < kanzure> so if you do a $100/mo membership fee, you have to get so many people signed up
21:57 < kanzure> and only a very small percentage of them could even possibly use the machines
21:57 < kanzure> because of how many hours there are in a day and a month
21:57 < Martyn> kanzure : They aren't 'forcing' anyone to become a franchise... those that do, can either follow the model or not.
21:58 < QuantumG> so far it sounds like they're ripping off the organizers, not the members.
21:58 < Martyn> if they don't want to, they can open their own business and compete :)
21:58 < fenn> (and they have no tooling that isnot totally beat up/destroyed, so i hear)
21:58 < kanzure> Martyn: sorry i don't care about your business
21:58 < fenn> tooling = end mills, drill bits et
21:58 < kanzure> QuantumG: well, that too
21:58 < QuantumG> how is it "too"?
21:58 < QuantumG> answer the question: how are they ripping off members?
21:58 < kanzure> QuantumG: the members don't get what they paid for
21:58 < MrClif> wouldn't the beatup tooling be a common problem with shared shops?
21:58 < QuantumG> examples?
21:59 < Martyn> kanzure : I mean that I don't particularly -ascribe- to the model.    Every hackerspace has it's own way of coming together...
21:59 < kanzure> QuantumG: 2000 people sign up, only 300 get to use the machines because there's not enough time for anything else
21:59 < Martyn> I just don't have strong feelings one way or another.  The way I look at it is, if there is something I don't like .. I won't use it.
21:59 < QuantumG> is there actual examples of this?
22:00 < QuantumG> cause I can't understand why members would remain subscribed if they didn't have access to what they wanted
22:00 < Martyn> kanzure : That's a bit .. hyperbolic, isn't it?
22:00 < fenn> MrClif: there's an incentive for techshop to order machines so they can claim theyhave them, but not so for tooling
22:00 < Martyn> QuantumG : No, he's stretching the numbers a bit to make a point.
22:00 < MrClif> by tooling you mean for use right?
22:00 < kanzure> no i'm not?
22:00 < kanzure> QuantumG: i figured it was because of the hype machine :/
22:01 < MrClif> but not everyone wants to use every machine.
22:01 < kanzure> they want to use at least one of the machines right?
22:01 < MrClif> sure.
22:01 < Martyn> kanzure : The membership @ techshop is limited (500 members per space) .. the most heavily used tech tools are the laser cutting machines, and then secondarily the machine shop milling machines, then the shop bot
22:01 < kanzure> where did you hear about membership limits?
22:01 < MrClif> Well so are there long waittimes to use popular machines?
22:01 < Martyn> There -is- contention for the laser cutters.
22:01 < Martyn> kanzure : From Jim.
22:02 < kanzure> jim never returns my phone calls :(
22:02 < kanzure> ok
22:02 < Martyn> kanzure : It's even in the charter
22:02 < kanzure> just wondreing. it's not on the website
22:02 < QuantumG> dude, unless you have actual examples of complaint you're just slagging them 
22:02 < kanzure> QuantumG: well Martyn said he knew les' complaint, but it doesn't sound like he does
22:02 < Martyn> However, when the epilog became too popular, jim just ordered another one.
22:03 < QuantumG> and seeing as they're actually doing something (which, as I've repeatedly said, you're not) that just sounds like sour grapes
22:03 < Martyn> And yes, the tools do get 'beat up' .. because there are far less expert users than amateur ones.  On the other hand, the machines are regularly maintained, and it's highly suggested that people buy their own tooling for projects.
22:03 < kanzure> MrClif: yeah but what happens if the wait times become so long that you literally wait all the way to next month?
22:03 < Martyn> Since tools are -much- less expensive than the machines you use them in
22:03 < Martyn> kanzure : Hasn't happened.
22:03 < Martyn> kanzure : The -longest- I've had to wait for a machine to free up was two days
22:03 < kanzure> Martyn: well i didn't know that because i didn't know about the membership limits
22:03 < kanzure> again i'm pretty sure that wasn't on the site
22:04 < Martyn> and that was because I needed to run a very complex job on the Tormach that would take three days, in three distinct four-hour blocks
22:04 < MrClif> Ok so if this is a problem what would you change? Increase the dues?
22:04 < kanzure> MrClif: i would change the model
22:04 < Martyn> kanzure : Fine, fine .. but don't spout hyperbole.  I've been a techshop member before coming to Austin, and I /know/ how the space works.   Plus I was one of the first members and watched the business figure itself out.
22:05 < kanzure> so have you convinced les to do a techshop again?
22:05 < Martyn> It has problems, but seriously .. they aren't the ones you are hitting.
22:05 < Martyn> Nope.
22:05 < Martyn> We just need space to start our collective in .. his looks convenient
22:05 < kanzure> who is "our"?
22:05 < Martyn> and the cost is relatively low
22:05 < genehacker2> what techshop sucks?
22:05 < genehacker2> I should've known
22:06 < Martyn> kanzure : Ratha, Matt, Mike, Whurley, Dave and myself
22:06 < kanzure> still not sure why whurley doesn't talk with me.. 
22:06 < kanzure> anyway glad to see another tribe in the austin area
22:06 < kanzure> we should do something for sure, but i'm not convinced about the membership model
22:06 < Martyn> Yep, and I'm glad to know there are others who want to have a space
22:06 < Martyn> There are costs, and membership helps defray it
22:06 < kanzure> there are other models
22:06 < Martyn> Les has a rent-a-tool kind of program, and frankly I can live within that model
22:07 < kanzure> but it sounds like you're already dead-set on something?
22:07 < kanzure> just checking
22:07 < Martyn> kanzure : Yep, but in the end, it's my money to invest into a space ...
22:07 < Martyn> and that's what talks
22:07 < kanzure> why are you investing money?
22:07 < Martyn> kanzure : Because I want something to exist.
22:07 < kanzure> oh boy
22:07 < kanzure> a money fundamentalist
22:07 < Martyn> do-ocracy, after all :)
22:07 < Martyn> No, just practical
22:07 < kanzure> you can do stuff without money :)
22:07 < Martyn> If I want a tool, I buy it
22:08 < kanzure> that's fine. that's not an option for everyone
22:08 < Martyn> if I want to share that tool, I make sure it can be maintained
22:08 < Martyn> kanzure : Yep, oh well :)
22:08 < Martyn> I'd rather have a place that works, than a utopia, any day
22:08 < kanzure> i'm not talking about a utopia
22:08 < kanzure> i'm talking about doing things
22:08 < Martyn> kanzure : So where's your space?   I'd be glad to go work in it.
22:08 < kanzure> without putting money between me
22:08 < QuantumG> the negative part of "gym membership model" is that people sign up, never use the service, then feel guilty about quitting or discover it is hard to quit.. I don't think you're saying people feel guilty about quitting or have trouble quitting.. so I don't know why you're mentioning the gym membership model.
22:08 < kanzure> Martyn: very close to les'
22:09 < MrClif> Money is just another form of energy, if we had solar powered replicators we wouldn't need money.
22:09 < Martyn> kanzure : Excellent .. tell me more about it.
22:09 < QuantumG> ... cause gyms are terribly successful businesses even when they forgo the shady practices.
22:09 < fenn> carpeted apartment room doesnt count :\
22:09 < kanzure> fenn: garage?
22:09 < Martyn> fenn : apartment room?
22:09 < kanzure> QuantumG: i told you, take your business elsewhere
22:10 < kanzure> Martyn: i live in an apartment, fenn thought that's what i was talking about
22:10 < fenn> though i would much rather have worked in my room than have all my stuff at les' and not be able to get to it
22:10 < QuantumG> my business?
22:10 < kanzure> Martyn: it just sounds like you're trying to keep people out and away, sorry.. you don't sound friendly
22:10 < Martyn> kanzure : Quite the opposite.  You were telling me about your space :)
22:10 < fenn> there is no space
22:11 < kanzure> fenn is lying
22:11 < kanzure> he moved away a few weeks ago
22:11 < fenn> your mom's a stripper
22:11 < kanzure> yeah :(
22:11 < Martyn> kanzure : I just want to solve a problem, of a place where people can get together in a safe, secure, and friendly place to work on projects .. and I'm more than willing to join into an already existing collective if it's running.
22:12 < kanzure> Martyn: but it sounds like you'd want to turn it into a LLC Business and make money an integral part of its mission or something
22:12 < kanzure> that's the sense i'm getting
22:12 < kanzure> it may not be true
22:12 < kanzure> i'm interested in doing things (primarily). business is farther down the list
22:12 < kanzure> further?
22:12 < Martyn> kanzure : At the end of the day, that means something needs to be rented, and people need to work together to keep a roof over the space, pay for power, and get the things they need.   In the case of noisebridge, they did it with a nonprofit .. pretty cool,  but very disorganized, and often drama-driven.   Metrix:Create works a little differently, so does HackerDojo ... I'm just along for the ride as long as I can get my projects 
22:13 < Martyn> kanzure : Nope!  I use an LLC only for the protection it gives, separating liability for the 'business' from personal liability of people involved in the projects
22:13 < Martyn> kanzure : a 'business' only in so much as making sure that there's a balance between what's needed to keep the lights on.  People often make that mistake when talking to me...
22:13 < kanzure> for instance, in les' shop, he only lets people come to work if they have paid one of the ten(?) $250/mo spots, and only once a week (when things get rolling) will he allow more people to come in
22:14 < Martyn> kanzure : We got him to drop the second part of that
22:14 < kanzure> i feel like i'm out of the loop :(
22:14 < kanzure> what is the second part?
22:14 < Martyn> and we're negotiating using our entity as a 'collective' with one or two of the 8x10 spots as storage
22:14 < Martyn> "once per week"
22:14 < kanzure> so .. 0 times per week?
22:14 < Martyn> no, all week, 24/7 access
22:15 < kanzure> huh when did this happen
22:15 < QuantumG> personally, I'd be making people pay for any tooling they break.. but frankly, that'll drive away most amateurs
22:15 < Martyn> last week, when we got together to talk with him on Saturday
22:15 < Martyn> QuantumG : I ascribe to the "education" model
22:15 < kanzure> can you guys please start using the mailing list for his shop?
22:15 < kanzure> that would be really really helpful
22:16 < Martyn> Keep a set of tooling for teaching, that's at least somewhat decently kept .. and then if people need more than basic tools to work on a project (something high accuracy) encourage them to buy their own set of tooling, but keep the machines they go to in good order (drills, power saws, table saw, routers, etc)
22:16 < QuantumG> yeah, taking a "you have to pass the class before you can use the equipment" approach works too.
22:16 < Martyn> kanzure : Hell, we didn't even know a mailing list existed.   He didn't mention it.
22:16 < kanzure> QuantumG: the fab academy has some certificates that might be useful for that
22:16 < Martyn> QuantumG : That's what TechShop does , but it's just a safety course (SBU)
22:16 < kanzure> Martyn: yeah he doesn't use it either. :( this was setup back in february through april when we were cooking on it
22:17 < QuantumG> so far the only access I've managed to find to lathe/mill hardware is "I know a guy"
22:17 < Martyn> kanzure : It's not going to be of terribly much use then.  Good idea though.
22:17 < kanzure> uh how about keeping people updated
22:17 < kanzure> obviously he's failed keeping me or fenn in the loop..
22:17 < QuantumG> I can't even find a course
22:17 < kanzure> QuantumG: at a community college?
22:17 < Martyn> kanzure : That's my point :)  The bunch of people I'm with didn't even know you guys /existed/ .. two tribes totally apart
22:17 < QuantumG> the only ones available require you to be an apprentice
22:18 < Martyn> we have our own list that we've been updating on google groups, in the communication we've been having.   This is the First Contact .. more or less
22:18 < kanzure> can you link to the mailing list?
22:18 < Martyn> kanzure : Nope ... and while I have access to the UT machine shops on Breaker (Pickle Campus) .. I can't share that access.. which sucks.
22:18 < kanzure> you can't give me a link
22:18 < Martyn> AND I had to pay $400 worth of classes just ot get access
22:18 < QuantumG> "community college" = TAFE around here
22:18 < Martyn> http://groups.google.com/group/austin-hacker-space
22:19 < kanzure> wonderful
22:19 < Martyn> that's what we put together :)
22:19 < kanzure> why is it membership only?
22:19 < Martyn> that's the model we decided on.
22:19 < QuantumG> and yeah, you've gotta be an apprentice.. welding, on the other hand, is open enrollment.
22:19 < kanzure> Martyn: why
22:19 < Martyn> Well, Ratha is more like minded to you, I'll have to admit
22:20 < Martyn> kanzure : To keep track of expenses, and be able to provide the best possible environment with the most up to date tools.  Plus, it provides an incentive to be active and do work, rather than just 'hang around' doing nothing
22:20 < kanzure> there's no expense for letting search engines archive content
22:20 < Martyn> OH!  You mean the LIST!
22:20 < kanzure> hell you're not even hosting the mailing list yourself
22:21 < Martyn> Because we're in the planning stages ... hell, none of us knew others existed :)
22:21 < kanzure> wtf the space is membership only now too? i thought you said you convinced les to drop that
22:21 < Martyn> It's just our groups way of talking to each other
22:21 < Martyn> *sigh*
22:21 < Martyn> Les still requires that there be one 'primary' responsible member per 8x10
22:22 < kanzure> what does that entail?
22:22 < Martyn> We just convinced him, partially, to allow us to act like a collective and host events and keep independent track of who we're responsible for
22:22 < Martyn> kanzure : Please stop jumping on me.  You're being ridiculously adversarial.
22:22 < fenn> has anyone bought building materials yet? that was the stumbling point back in april or whatever, as dumb as it sounds
22:22 < Martyn> (for someone I have never met before today :) )
22:23 < genehacker2> oh we have some UT people
22:23 < kanzure> just wondering what it entails
22:23 < Martyn> kanzure : All the details have not been worked out yet.
22:23 < genehacker2> argh, I'm way off campus for the month
22:23 < Martyn> kanzure : We literally just met Les last saturday
22:23 < Martyn> kanzure : Whereabouts are you?
22:24 < kanzure> south lamar and ben white, basically .5mi from les' shop
22:24 < fenn> ok well it seems y'all are off to a good start, i'm off to noisebridge
22:24 < Martyn> Like I said, if you have an alternate space that your group has already set up ... there's no reason for our group to do something different.. right?
22:25 < genehacker2> what group are you in Martyn, are you in RAS?
22:25 < kanzure> genehacker2: he's not a student i think
22:25 < genehacker2> oh
22:25 < Martyn> genhacker2 : Not a student :)
22:25 < Martyn> <-- engineer, ARM designer, and Linux Kernel engineer
22:25 < kanzure> Martyn: there's a few others who checked out les and figured it wasn't worth it, but maybe we can convince them to reconsider
22:25 < kanzure> ah you do kernel hacking
22:25 < Martyn> I'm also a robotics hacker (micromouse, battlebots), UAV enthusiast, and MakerBot/RepRap enthusiast
22:26 < genehacker2> UAV enthusiast, like ardupilot or something else
22:26 < Martyn> So I kind of bridge the hardware and software worlds
22:26 < genehacker2> <----- has some printed darwin parts
22:26 < kanzure> atoms and bits :)
22:26 < Martyn> Um, more like self-guided lighter than air craft
22:26 < genehacker2> can it fly outdoors?
22:27 < Martyn> genehacker : I have a completed MakerBot, two McWire bots, and a broken Darwin that I need to finish repairing before January
22:27 < Martyn> Yes :)
22:27 < genehacker2> I have several solar powered lighter than aircraft
22:27 < genehacker2> do you have the electronics for the darwin and a working extruder?
22:27 < Martyn> At least, globo-2 can fly outdoors .. but it's meant to fly at 40-50,000 feet
22:27 < Martyn> Yep.
22:28 < genehacker2> a blimp or a free balloon or something else?
22:28 < Martyn> I prefer the MakerBot for that
22:28 < Martyn> "airship"
22:28 < genehacker2> what's wrong with your darwin
22:28 < genehacker2> oh dang
22:28 < genehacker2> an actual airship
22:28 < genehacker2> that can fly that high
22:28 < Martyn> 20-40lb payload
22:28 < genehacker2> whoa so pretty big
22:29 < genehacker2> just camera's I presume?
22:29 < Martyn> yeah, and it can navigate currents by going higher and lower, using high altitude winds and layers to stay in a general geographic area.   I want to use them as low flying 'sats' for telecom use, for emergency VOIP access in disaster areas
22:29 < genehacker2> and have you constructed the envelope?
22:29 < kanzure> Martyn: so, linux. have you ever used dpkg, apt-get, yum, yast, etc.?
22:29 < Martyn> sure.
22:29 < genehacker2> that's pretty awesome
22:30 < kanzure> Martyn: so, that's what we're doing in here with skdb. except for hardware.
22:30 < Martyn> I saw.. very interesting
22:30 < kanzure> i want to apt-get install laser-cannon
22:30 < kanzure> oh okay
22:30 < kanzure> blah there goes the surprise
22:30 < Martyn> Yep, I read the page.   It's very interesting :)
22:30 < kanzure> cool :)
22:30 < Martyn> a way to combine STL, commmon interfaces for producing parts... it's going to be a very important part of open hardware/open design
22:31 < kanzure> to be honest i've been trying to avoid stl
22:31 < kanzure> stl is good for an output format.. but i prefer solid geometry models for sharing
22:31 < Martyn> The kind of thing you'll need for an open market where you might .. say .. want to print out a football on your (in the future) HP LaserSinter 3D Printer
22:33 < Martyn> Four weeks ago, I met Sanjay Patischwal of HP .. who is working on some pretty amazing next-gen tech for HP.  3D printing will be coming from them in the next 10 years
22:33 < kanzure> i thought they already had something? hrm
22:33 < Martyn> They licenced some tech from the guys at ObJet .. multi-mixed jet printing of materials with different properties and colors.  Very clever
22:34 < Martyn> naa .. they have some very basic stuff.   Nothing like what they are working on in the advanced concepts department.
22:34 < Martyn> Sanjay printed out a -working- raquetball, and it was even RED
22:34 < Martyn> we went and played with it afterwards.
22:35 < Martyn> good resolution too.   0.18mm per layer, 0.25mm x/y resolution, materials could be anywhere from as soft as rubber to as hard as resin, and mixed to 10 bits of ratio
22:35 < Martyn> which is pretty neat
22:35 < Martyn> Basically exactly what ObJET does now
22:35 < Martyn> (for $400,000 .. of course)
22:36 < genehacker2> what material? do you know the material they used?
22:36 < MrClif> but how do you get the support structures out from the inside of an object?
22:36 < Martyn> It never uses them
22:36 < MrClif> so it can print horizotal surfaces?
22:36 < Martyn> the material is laid down rapidly and dries very quickly in layers
22:37 < genehacker2> is it UV cure or something else?
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22:37 < Martyn> yep.  If support material is needed, it -can- print some .. but then you have to break it or dissolve it depending on which is used
22:37 < MrClif> so it can print a 0.18mm think layer of rubber?
22:37 < Martyn> genehacker2 : Honestly have /no/ idea .. proprietary
22:37 < Martyn> MrClif : "rubbery" material
22:37 < Martyn> MrClif : It's not actually rubber :)
22:37 < genehacker2> an elastomer
22:37 < Martyn> yeah
22:37 < MrClif> pretty cool..
22:38 < Martyn> He did print me out a teapot though, and it's even -shiny-
22:38 < genehacker2> dang
22:38 < Martyn> Unfortunately, the stuff they are working on in that lab won't see the light of day as a product for at least 5-10 years
22:38 < QuantumG> big teapot?
22:38 < genehacker2> well the problem right now is marketing it to the public
22:38 < Martyn> naa .. just a small one .. 12cm on a side
22:38 < genehacker2> does the public really want a 3d printer in their house?
22:39 < Martyn> I think they will
22:39 < genehacker2> (most people don't know about 3d printers)
22:39 < genehacker2> unfortunately
22:39 < Martyn> Sure, and most people didn't know about laser printers in the 80's
22:39 < genehacker2> I do
22:39 < Martyn> they were huge things inside of companies, that only big places like banks could have
22:39 < Martyn> now .. we don't think anything about going to Office Depot and buying one for $150
22:39 < genehacker2> heh exact same situation right not
22:39 < genehacker2> *now
22:39 < kanzure> Martyn: how do yu feel about the walls idea?
22:40 < Martyn> hell, we have fights over how much TONER costs ... and don't give a thought that it's amazing it's available at all
22:40 < Martyn> I'm "meh"
22:40 < kanzure> technologicle2 pointed out that it was weird that a woodworker couldn't put up some walls within 8mo
22:40 < genehacker2> anyway this HP guy should try printing robots if he can print multiple materials
22:40 < kanzure> (i met technologicle2 just the other day.. not even last week)
22:40 < genehacker2> if you can print elastomers you can print pneumatic actuators
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22:43 < genehacker2> and with embedded elastomers and structural elements, well you can make some pretty weird stuff
22:44 < genehacker2> like  bony-biomimetic-robot hands
22:51 < QuantumG> wonder if you could make actuators from bacteria that produce/consume gases
22:52 < QuantumG> being that you were talking about printing cells too
22:54 < Martyn> Back
22:54 < Martyn> Was on the phone with Ratha just now...
22:55 < Martyn> kansure -answer to your question as to "why closed mailing list group"  : Spam
22:55 < Martyn> Ratha closed it because we were getting flooded by spambots
22:55 < Martyn> genehacker2 : They are still trying to figure out how to print conductive materials.  It's a big problem
22:56 < Martyn> genehacker2 : If they crack that .. good god .. that's the holy grail of 3D printing .. being able to print circuits in place
22:56 < Martyn> (cheaply)
22:57 < kanzure> Martyn: no i mean the message archive
22:57 < genehacker2> err... slow reaction kinetics
22:58 < genehacker2> circuits?
22:58 < genehacker2> you can already print circuits
22:58 < Martyn> kanzure : Tempest in teapot?  It's easy enough to ask for access, it's not restricted other than for asking
22:58 < genehacker2> both electronic and fluidic
22:58 < genehacker2> it's old news
22:58 < Martyn> sure, but not cheaply
22:58 < QuantumG> have I mentioned lately that I'd like a desktop device that can produce bacteria with a specified dna sequence inserted?
22:58 < kanzure> Martyn: registering sucks especially with so many mailing lists.. http://heybryan.org/mailing_lists.html
22:59 < Martyn> that's the key to getting things going .. to print a motor, you need to be able to print the armature.. and the magnets
22:59 < genehacker2> the main problem is modifying current processes
22:59 < Martyn> kanzure: Um, okay?
22:59 < kanzure> QuantumG: :) do you want to build one?
22:59 < Martyn> kanzure : It is what it is.
22:59 < genehacker2> or just use pneumatic motors
22:59 < kanzure> Martyn: and you're ok with that?
22:59 < genehacker2> like the one I'm designing
22:59 < Martyn> kanzure : Well, frankly, I don't particularly mind or care.
22:59 < QuantumG> kanzure: that's why I was looking into microfluidics a few months ago
22:59 < Martyn> kanzure : It's your passion.
22:59 < QuantumG> and came to the conclusion that the techniques are just not available yet :(
22:59 < kanzure> QuantumG: ah i don't remember that sorry
23:00 < kanzure> you can do gene transfer to bacteria via AFM probe tips, but it's hard to make probe tips
23:00 < Martyn> QuantumG : I did see a wonderful thing that a friend (Jim Taylor-Farnes) did at MIT/Media Lab
23:00 < QuantumG> kanzure: and I want bulk
23:01 < kanzure> bulk throughput? me too
23:01 < QuantumG> Martyn: wassat
23:01 < Martyn> QuantumG : He has a technique of printing "micromuscles" that nano assemble and react to voltage.  It was -very- slick, and would allow for a printed moving part
23:01 < Martyn> QuantumG : It was spooky to watch a laser sintered part come out of the machine (a little hard disk armature) that worked, immediately.
23:02 < Martyn> It's not robust .. but then again, what tech is that's fresh in the lab?
23:02 < QuantumG> well, I can imagine combining my dream desktop cell synthesiser with a 3d printer... 
23:02 < Martyn> *nod*
23:02 < Martyn> As far as today's practical tech .. I'd be happy with a printer that is sufficiently capable of printing out toys
23:03 < Martyn> Or simple, single material 3D objects that are useable
23:05 < Martyn> although, I have to admit .. "apt-get create pillow" would be really nice right now
23:06 < kanzure> hm i think i'll apt-get myself a pillow from the other room right now, in fact
23:07 < Martyn> Heh.
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23:11 < genehacker2> well if you can print elastomers you can print pneumatic muscles and valves
23:11 < QuantumG> how do you power them though?
23:11 < genehacker2> QuantumG you want a gene synthesizer too?
23:11 < genehacker2> simple
23:12 < genehacker2> a coke bottle
23:12 < genehacker2> filled with air
23:12 < QuantumG> filled how?
23:12 < genehacker2> can be carbon fiber reinforced for more capacity
23:12 < genehacker2> with a bike pump
23:12 < QuantumG> well its interesting
23:13 < Martyn> Hey, cart before horse :)
23:13 < Martyn> I'd be happy with a printer that can print in <one> material in CMYK / RGBWB
23:14 < Martyn> much less being able to choose between different shore indexes like the objet can : http://www.objet.com/Materials/Connex500_Digital_Materials/
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23:25 < fenn> carbon fiber is my favorite soda flavor!
23:25 < Martyn> eval pillow++
23:25 < Martyn> *Sigh*
23:25 < Martyn> I'm nodding off
23:25 < Martyn> it's been a looooong day
23:28 < kanzure> Martyn: sent a long email
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23:28 < Martyn> I noticed
23:28 < kanzure> i tend to do that :(
23:28 < Martyn> Might have been nice to say "hi" to folks first, yanno?
23:28 < kanzure> oh
23:28 < Martyn> *shakes head*
23:29 < Martyn> Yep.  We're all geeks.
23:29 < Martyn> *puts head in hands*
23:29 < Martyn> Maybe a quick "ps.  hi!" would be good.   *laughs*
23:30 < Martyn> OOoo--- http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/16/rooted-nook-gets-pandora-shot-at-true-happiness/   .. YAY!
23:30 < Martyn> Now that's a hack I can get behind.   Nook + android softs = yummy
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