--- Day changed Tue Dec 22 2009
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00:53 < genehacker2> hmm... that james cameron guy is going to make battle angel alita...
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09:20 < kanzure> hi MrClif, technologiclee1, kristianpaul 
09:20 < kristianpaul> hello kanzure 
09:23 < kanzure> heh someone was searching heybryan.org for "chemical reactions flex bison". not a bad thing to want :)
09:29 < kristianpaul> :)
09:46 < fenn> matthew laberge (conversion help on OM) was responding to the request for help at the bottom of the skdb wiki page
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10:07 < kanzure> oh
10:08 < kanzure> fenn: no he was responding to an email i sent him 
10:08 < kanzure> on the (what is now called) "makerscan" mailing list
10:09 < fenn> hm ok
10:10 < kanzure> feeling better yet?
10:11 < fenn> yeah i got better a week ago
10:15  * kanzure is reading up on time perception and how to fix his
10:26 < kanzure> hm: http://everything2.com/user/Professor+Pi/writeups/Why+time+appears+to+speed+up+with+age
10:27 < kanzure> "Did you ever meet those proud parents boasting about their little one who is only x months old, and already walks, writes obfuscated C, or recently sold his first dot.com? No, these youngsters aren't bright for their age; they simply have a high γ-factor."
10:28 < kanzure> huh. 70% by real-age 20?
10:30 < kanzure> i wonder what this means for longevity escape velocity and perception of aubreys
10:30 < kanzure> (aubreys=one longevity lifetime or somesuch)
10:30 < kanzure> hah we should make aubrey a unit :)
10:31 < kanzure> journal of irreproducible results. oh boy.
10:32 < Utopiah> kanzure: maybe they are some sort of "daily exercises" (beside looking at the calendar...)
10:33 < kanzure> what use is it if you live forever but forever takes only a split second?
10:34 < Utopiah> could be useful to stay in touch with reality until we get there ;)
10:35 < Utopiah> you can count in heartbeat, in exponential time, etc... but since we tend to be quite socials I doubt it will change your daily habit a lot, just my guess though
10:40 < kanzure> well since it's a logarithm it looks like, according to this irreproducible result, that your perception is locked in at an "effective age" of 80, but i'd first ask the GRG people
10:51 < kanzure> heh i forgot to mention in my email that different people probably consider a different perception of time to be "normal" for them
10:51 < kanzure> at age 10, a year feels like 3 years
10:51 < kanzure> that would feel about right to me- or anything greater. 
10:51 < Utopiah> is it based on physiology or activity?
10:51 < Utopiah> (for example playing vs. stressful job vs. family life)
10:52 < kanzure> Utopiah: the page i linked to seems to just be some math, not an actual study
10:52 < kanzure> i have never met a <10year old kid who reports a year feels like a month
10:53 < kanzure> Utopiah: all of the studies on google scholar seem to be about attention tasks and psychometrics- i.e. things that you can observe within a few hours- instead of tracking people's perception of time over multiple years
10:54 < Utopiah> linking attention to interest I guess and thus feeling time fyling by when being highly invoved in a motivating task?
10:55 < kanzure> i've heard reports of even bored adults having time fly by
10:56 < kanzure> i.e. the 95 year old grandmother "it seems i wake up, go to the bathroom, and suddenly it's night and i go to bed"
10:56 < kanzure> s/grandmother/great grandmother/
10:57 < Utopiah> I guess there should be a psychological adaptation mechanism too, i.e. if there is no value in measuring time precisely (retired as opposed to a trader) then it's a rational optimization to just take very very rought measures
11:03 < kanzure> does anyone know how to check whether or not a blogping was successful?
11:18 < fenn> time is measured in new experiences
11:28 < ybit> my attempt at getting my little cousins to think for themselves: http://pastebin.com/d313577062
11:28 < ybit> they think hacking is cool and mysterious, like the cheesy video i linked to the other day
11:29 < Utopiah> ybit: could force them to read http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=3009 ;)
11:29 < ybit> :P
11:30 < ybit> or any other weird thing most people talk about
11:30 < ybit> i only see them once a year, but it would be nice to have someone in the family talk about something besides football or hunting  <- first part
11:35 < ybit> anyway, Utopiah, notice the last part of the message to them
11:37 < fenn> an empty pastebin?
11:38 < Utopiah> fenn: yes, they are suppoes to free themselves
11:38 < Utopiah> the mighty blank page, smart
11:38 < fenn> oh, it is self-evident
11:38 < fenn> hurrah
11:38 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/d31357706
11:38 < ybit> grr
11:39 < kanzure> back
11:39 < Utopiah> long :-#
11:39 < Utopiah> do non cousins have to be free too? :-#
11:42 < ybit> hrm, time to install the default firmware on my router, clear out some land on the farm (we start building this week), and then, well.. i won't say because i really want to do this one and get it done
11:42 < ybit> it's kind of odd how we act similarly but don't say a word to each other
11:43 < ybit> another recent example being the hackerspace dealings in austin while the hackerspace is being constructed here as well
11:44 < ybit> yes, i decided on building a lab and living quarters on the huge plot of land
11:45  * ybit out
11:45 < fenn> thanks for the status report, commander ybit
12:00 < fenn> wow that "how to be a hacker" document has this huge screed against RMS and free software
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12:36 < kanzure> in a meeting with les et al.
12:36 < kanzure> "Hey Brian,
12:36 < kanzure> Sorry for being late in replying to you. I'd like to send you some money, will need your bank account details.
12:36 < kanzure> Best wishes,
12:36 < kanzure> Dan"
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13:01 < kristianpaul> :O
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17:42 < kanzure> cleaning up http://heybryan.org/
17:42 < kanzure> man this sucks
17:43 < Martyn> Hey, it was nice meeting you today
17:43 < kanzure> hi Martyn 
18:22 < kanzure> yum: http://code.google.com/p/gdata-python-client/
18:29 < kanzure> http://jsbeautifier.org/
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18:57  * QuantumG is liking Solid Works
18:57 < xp_prg> QuantumG want to help me with something?
18:58 < QuantumG> sure
18:59 < xp_prg> ok, I was told the best way to make my bio printer was to make a 3d cnc machine and the best thing to use to design it was solidworks
19:00 < xp_prg> I need 600 dpi movement resolution
19:01 < xp_prg> I was told to use worm gear and extra gears for that resolution
19:01 < xp_prg> got any ideas?
19:01 < QuantumG> what I've found good about solid works is it makes me go from "I guess it'll work like this" to "I'll make it 40mm diameter with a 3mm thickness."  
19:02 < QuantumG> it lets you see what will work and what wont
19:02 < xp_prg> wow that is cool
19:02 < xp_prg> so like do you have any ideas how to build what I want to build?
19:02 < QuantumG> study up on your mechanical engineering?
19:03 < xp_prg> not my major sorry :>
19:03 < QuantumG> not mine either
19:03 < QuantumG> but if you wanna make machines, that's what you have to learn.
19:03 < xp_prg> can you pretend it was?
19:03 < QuantumG> there's books available
19:04 < xp_prg> so you can't help me?
19:04 < QuantumG> thought I just did
19:05 < kanzure> QuantumG: reverse engineering the .sldprt format has been on my todo list for a while. if you look at the data there's some sort of "polylist" that it contains, but i don't know what format the data is in
19:05 < QuantumG> if by "help you" you mean "do it for me" then no
19:05 < kanzure> some microsoft-special way of serializingdata objects
19:05 < kanzure> *serializing data
19:06 < kanzure> and sometimes it's zipped data in there, sometimes not, but even if it is zipped, the unzipped version doesn't make much sense
19:07 < kanzure> (there's no "pk zip" starting off the "zipped data" segment, it's just based off of the polylist__ZIP naming convention)
19:07 < QuantumG> yeah, fun
19:07 < QuantumG> decoding the 3ds format was annoying enough
19:07 < kanzure> doesn't blender have a .3ds writer?
19:08 < kanzure> i'm not familiar with the details of that format now that i think about it
19:08 < kanzure> anyway what i did for solidworks was i made progressively more complex models
19:08 < kanzure> and saved a bajillion versions in different exported formats from solidworks
19:09 < kanzure> so i have a line, a circle, an extruded circle, blah blah blah
19:09 < kanzure> all in .sldprt, .iges, .stp, .xt, anything under the sun
19:09 < kanzure> haven't done anything with this data yet.. very hard to reverse engineer a format when you don't have the original app running locally
19:10 < QuantumG> there's like a dozen dimension types and such too
19:10 < QuantumG> just looking at it from the interface point of view I can imagine the file format is a rat's nest
19:10 < kanzure> i'm hoping there's some structure to it that i'm not seeing yet
19:11 < kanzure> i.e. maybe they're doing an xml serializer and are binary encoding it? please please please?
19:12 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/lab/opencascade/solidworks_source_structure.txt
19:12 < kanzure> hm where did my notes on the format go
19:12 < QuantumG> http://torrents.thepiratebay.org/4857163/SolidWorks_2009_for_64_bit_based_systems.4857163.TPB.torrent  is the torrent I used btw
19:13 < genehacker2> did you get it to work quantumg?
19:13 < kanzure> QuantumG: yeah i have a torrent, i just can't get it running under vmware
19:13 < genehacker2> I heard that solidworks reports to a central server or something?
19:13 < kanzure> nah you can crack the hell out of it
19:13 < xp_prg> QuantumG this is priated?
19:13 < QuantumG> yeah, you disable the network when you install
19:13 < genehacker2> well I'm not experienced in the art of cracking software
19:13 < QuantumG> then crack it
19:13 < xp_prg> heh cool
19:14 < xp_prg> is that the latest?
19:14 < kanzure> i'm amazed at how stupid some software is
19:14 < kanzure> like "ping a server and browse to port 80 and check if the code is correct"
19:14 < kanzure> "if the code is right, the webserver will return 'true'"
19:14 < kanzure> yeah like i'm not going to add that in my /etc/hosts file..
19:14 < genehacker2> I'm a bit paranoid about downloading expensive software like solidworks and getting caught
19:14 < QuantumG> If I ever use SolidWorks for something commercial I'll buy it, but that's the only chance I will.
19:15 < genehacker2> expensive software is bound to be backed by expensive lawyers
19:15 < genehacker2> hmmm...
19:15 < genehacker2> you do have a point though
19:15 < QuantumG> how are you going to "get caught?"
19:15 < QuantumG> 1. it's not even a copyright violation.
19:15 < genehacker2> wait a second how's that on the piratebay?
19:16 < genehacker2> didn't they sell out or something?
19:17 < QuantumG> hehe, the media loves to report the death of thepiratebay more than John Lennon (when he was alive)
19:17 < genehacker2> now I just need 64 bit windows and I'm set
19:17 < kanzure> QuantumG: that doesn't make sense when you have to explain lennon
19:17 < kanzure> genehacker2: there's non-64-bit versions out there
19:17 < QuantumG> there's probably a 32 bit torrent out there too
19:17 < genehacker2> and a safe way to torrent
19:18 < kanzure> with a tinfoil hat on
19:18 < genehacker2> seem to be out of tinfoil at the moment
19:18 < genehacker2> what do you use quantumg?
19:19 < QuantumG> Transmission .. on my linux box
19:19 < genehacker2> ok
19:20 < genehacker2> any special settings I should know about?
19:20 < genehacker2> for torrent clients?
19:21 < QuantumG> limit your upload/download bandwidth if you don't want your network to crawl to a halt.
19:21 < genehacker2> ok
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19:25 < kanzure> aha there it is. ~/local/solidworks/
19:26 < kanzure> it's called "COM structured output" or "OLE structured output"
19:26 < kanzure> s/output/storage/
19:27 < QuantumG> oh dear
19:27 < QuantumG> that's the stuff Microsoft used to use for doc files
19:27 < kanzure> QuantumG: sudo apt-get install libgsf-bin; gsf cat mydrawingfile.SLDDRW PreviewPNG > preview.png && eog preview.png
19:27 < kanzure> there's a pre-rendered "PreviewPNG" in .slddrw files, and usually .sldprt files too (for thumbnails)
19:28 < kanzure> there's also "gsf list blah.sldprt" which is useful
19:28 < kanzure> Contents/DisplayLists__ZLB any idea what ZLB means? 
19:29 < kanzure> i look at the hexdump for it and i'm totally clueless
19:29 < QuantumG> no idea
19:30 < QuantumG> http://isohunt.com/download/105184321/solidworks+2009.torrent   <- SolidWorks 2009 Bible   
19:30 < QuantumG> you should be able to get some domain knowledge from it
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19:37  * genehacker downloads a real irc client
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20:31 < QuantumG> XChat
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21:20 < ybit> genehackerclone:so what is this real irc client?
21:20 < ybit> if you use windows, you can use pidgin, quassel, and irssi
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21:28 < kanzure> hello Martyn, ybit
21:28 < kanzure> Martyn: earlier today we were talking about reverse engineering .sldprt 
21:29 < kanzure> it's a "COM structured storage" file with some binary voodoo magic for the "display lists"
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21:42 < Martyn> hmm ..
21:42 < Martyn> there is no open file format for it?
21:42 < Martyn> they don't publish it?
21:45 < QuantumG> actually, there are docs for Microsoft's crap
21:45 < QuantumG> but they're not actually readable
21:46 < kanzure> solidworks doesn't have an "open" file format if that's what you're asking.
21:46 < kanzure> as far as i can tell, they're using COM files but with their own binary data stored in it
21:47 < kanzure> http://singularityhub.com/2009/12/22/a-review-of-the-best-robots-of-2009/
21:48 < kanzure> hah: http://humanpl.us/
21:54 < Martyn> Hmmm
21:54 < Martyn> well that's a pain in the butt
21:54 < Martyn> I never gave two seconds of thought as to the format of the sldprt file
21:55 < QuantumG> I just presumed it was proprietary and that exporting would be more effective
21:56 < Martyn> same here
22:01 < kanzure> yep
22:02 < kanzure> exporting is, in fact more effective
22:02 < kanzure> but for some reason people still save .sldprt files
22:02 < Martyn> sure.
22:02 < Martyn> there is a program from .ru I used about a year ago that was able to convert solidworks files to other formats
22:02 < kanzure> i bet they import the solidworks dll
22:02 < Martyn> it was pretty good, and free.  I don't know if it was open source.
22:03 < kanzure> you can do all sorts of fancy solidworks programming if you get their development kit
22:03 < Martyn> kanzure : On Linux?  Doubt it
22:03 < kanzure> was it working on linux?
22:03 < Martyn> yes
22:03 < kanzure> neat :)
22:03 < Martyn> I wish I could remember what it was though
22:03 < Martyn> it was one of those things I googled for, because I was in a hurry and really, REALLY had to get a part made
22:03 < kanzure> huh
22:03 < kanzure> i always thought those websites were just spam sites
22:03 < kanzure> so i mentally glaze over them
22:04 < Martyn> I had to get an STL file from a part I only had a solidworks part file for
22:04 < Martyn> no, there are some very clever programmers in RU
22:04 < kanzure> "convert for free! blah blah blah click here! solidworks keyword keyword keyword"
22:04 < Martyn> The machine I used long ago died too .. back in Jan
22:04 < kanzure> i don't know what to watch. superman or the matrix?
22:04 < Martyn> Um, neither?
22:04 < Martyn> *heh*
22:05 < kanzure> i'm bored out of my mind
22:05 < Martyn> Well, got any projects you haven't finished?
22:05 < kanzure> many
22:05  * Martyn just bought a new iMac 27" today, so it's keeping me busy with it's setup tongiht
22:05 < kanzure> how do you afford all this crap?
22:06 < kanzure> stonesomething?
22:08 < genehackerclone> to do fem in solidworks it helps to have it the part in .sldprt
22:09 < Martyn> kanzure : I founded a few companies, and work for a good one right now.  I'm also good with money.
22:09 < kanzure> what does "good with money" mean?
22:09 < Martyn> Smooth-Stone, startup making a new ARM processor
22:09 < Martyn> It means that if I have money, I tend to be able to make more of it.
22:09 < Martyn> I'm good at managing my financies.
22:09 < kanzure> well yeah that goes for anybody who has money
22:09 < Martyn> finances rather
22:09 < kanzure> "takes money to make money", so if you're loaded :)
22:10 < Martyn> No, it doesn't.  I know a lot of people for whom money goes in, and money goes out, but they have little to show for it.
22:10 < kanzure> huh
22:10 < kanzure> okie dokie
22:10 < kanzure> who? i don't know anyone spewing money
22:10 < Martyn> Really?  you've never met someone for whom money falls through their bank account like some kind of sieve?
22:10 < Martyn> I meet people like that all the time.. spending more than they have, "living the american dream":
22:11 < kanzure> maybe the internet is just different
22:11 < Martyn> In any case, the machine I bought is for a tax dodge.   I have a small corporate entity I use to make PC boards (http://www.igotu.com/hackthebadge)
22:12 < Martyn> My accountant advised me that I had to do a Capital Expenditure of about $2k to show a loss for the year.  By doing so, the IRS will refund me a good chunk of change .. if I had shown a profit, I would have been massively taxed in a manner disproportionate to the profit.
22:12 < genehackerclone> defcon badge hacking?
22:12 < katsmeow> so you don't actually hire out board making services?
22:13 < Martyn> genehackerclone : Yeah.   I made it because Joe Grand just _wouldnt_ tell me anything about the defcon badges before the event.
22:13 < genehackerclone> oh cool
22:14 < genehackerclone> there's a reason he doesn't tell people
22:14 < Martyn> So I built a very flexible board .. 0.8V to 5V, with a buck booster so it could run off batteries, and capable of SPI, I2C, and 46 pins of GPIO
22:14 < genehackerclone> after all wouldn't want to spoil the surprise
22:14 < Martyn> I generally still get a heads up about two weeks ahead of time.  This time, they decided to make it a black badge contest . so there was more at stake.
22:14 < Martyn> I still think my team should have won with our blimp :)
22:15 < Martyn> Zoz so social engineered his win.
22:15 < Martyn> Not that I think 2nd place is bad, given some of the really tough hacks we were up against.
22:16 < genehackerclone> any pics of said blimp?
22:16 < Martyn> katsmeow : Hmm?
22:16 < katsmeow> [22:11] <Martyn> In any case, the machine I bought is for a tax dodge.   I have a small corporate entity I use to make PC boards (http://www.igotu.com/hackthebadge)
22:16 < genehackerclone> does it actually fair well in windy conditions
22:16 < Martyn> katsmeow : No, I design my own boards, and program them.
22:16 < katsmeow> [22:12] <katsmeow> so you don't actually hire out board making services?
22:17 < Martyn> katsmeow : I have e-teknet make the boards in china (thank you globalization), and Virtex here in Austin does the assembly and population.
22:17 < Martyn> I specialize these days in SMT
22:17 < Martyn> since it's sooooo much cheaper
22:17 < katsmeow> you don't make pcb for people, that is
22:17 < Martyn> hell no
22:17 < Martyn> I put the company together mostly so I could have fun, and sell designs I come up with.
22:17 < katsmeow> but you bought a machine to do it
22:17 < Martyn> What, the mac?
22:18 < katsmeow> nm
22:18 < Martyn> I bought that because I was at the Apple Store when the accountant called...
22:18 < Martyn> and .. um .. got excited :)
22:18 < Martyn> Impulse buy, but at least it has a reason for being.  It also will ROCK at running Ubuntu :)
22:19 < Martyn> And it will let that entity run at a net loss for '09
22:23 < Martyn> katsmeow : Most of my designs these days are 4+ layers and for SMT ... DIY machines haven't quite caught up, and the machines I would need to produce PCB's like those cost as much as some houses.
22:24 < Martyn> although I did have -great- results recently in Noisebridge, with a special kind of 4 layer board.  (route the top, route the bottom, and use the middle layers for ground and power)
22:24 < Martyn> not all designs can work that way though
22:24 < Martyn> also vias are tricky
22:26 < Martyn> pong?
22:28 < kanzure> ping
22:28 < kanzure> was making dinner
22:30 < Martyn> no worries
22:32 < drazak> Martyn: maaan you  should look at some of the audio boards at tangentsoft.net that are 4 layer
22:32 < drazak> Martyn: pretty much just like that
22:33 < drazak> vground and power as inner boards
22:33 < Martyn> yep, that works if you're not too worried about EMI
22:34 < drazak> the wanted signal on the inside and vground and power on the outside but something wasn't quite right
22:34 < Martyn> (large groundplane near powerplane ... always bad)
22:34 < drazak> (yeah)
22:34 < drazak> (maybe they seperated the planes)
22:35 < drazak> (you'd have to look, it'sbeen 4 months or so since I last checked around onthere)
22:35 < Martyn> heh
22:36  * Martyn is almost done installing two more operating systems into the new box
22:36 < Martyn> Parallels runs FAST on this thing.   Ubuntu is installed, so is Windows 7 (can't get around it for some software ... I'm OS agnostic)
22:36 < kanzure> wait, there's software already dependent on windows7? _why_
22:37 < Martyn> no, just dependent on Windows
22:37 < Martyn> I can get Windows 7 from UT for $29
22:38 < kanzure> so what?
22:38 < kanzure> i'm sorry, i don't understand
22:38 < Martyn> kanzure : Um, the cheapest I can get windows XP .. is $89
22:38 < Martyn> so, Windows 7 being cheaper, is what I'm going to use :)
22:38 < kanzure> that wasn't my question though :/
22:38 < kanzure> nevermind
22:39 < Martyn> What was your question again then?
22:39 < kanzure> 22:36 < kanzure> wait, there's software already dependent on windows7? _why_
22:39 < kanzure> 22:37 < Martyn> I can get Windows 7 from UT for $29
22:39 < kanzure> 22:38 < kanzure> so what?
22:39  * kanzure goes back to work
22:40 < Martyn> Yeah, that's a bit unclear....
22:40 < Martyn> So what... what?
22:40 < kanzure> really? it doesn't surprise you that people are already writing software for windows7 only?
22:41 < Martyn> OH!
22:41 < Martyn> I haven't come across windows 7 dependent software yet
22:41 < Martyn> Solidworks 2010 works on it, so I just chose the cheaper option.
22:41 < kanzure> okay.
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