--- Day changed Wed Dec 23 2009
01:29 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk
03:20 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:20 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit]
03:20 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:28 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Changing server"]
03:36 < ybit> this image sucks: http://thingiverse_beta.s3.amazonaws.com/renders/df/ff/f4/bd/ad/RARM-Ponoko_display_large.jpg
03:36 < ybit> someone please hurt the person who made it so small
03:37 < ybit> kanzure: thanks for the notes from the meeting
03:38  * ybit has solidworks on his linux machine
03:38 < Utopiah> kanzure: can check link between aging and the suprachiasmatic nucleus (and the consequence of vision and light for re-synchronicity)  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19558140?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=3 if Pubmed works again (got a weird error now)
03:39 < ybit> it was a 10gb torrent too
03:43 < ybit> 22:38 < Martyn> kanzure : Um, the cheapest I can get windows XP .. is $89
03:43 < ybit> it's free online, just saying
03:45 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:45 < ybit> hi El_Matarife 
03:46 < El_Matarife> Evening
03:46 < El_Matarife> Or hell its 3:46AM so how about "Morning"
03:59 < superkuh> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0008218 - A Wireless Brain-Machine Interface for Real-Time Speech Synthesis , I didn't see it in the logs.
04:04 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:50 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-59-154.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:04 -!- technologiclee1 [n=lee@70.114.201.242] has quit ["Leaving."]
06:50 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:08 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-59-154.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
07:16 -!- technologiclee1 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:23 -!- Netsplit pratchett.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: QuantumG
07:24 -!- Netsplit over, joins: QuantumG
08:02 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:04 < kanzure> http://spaceup.org/ san diego unconference 
09:12 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
09:12 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:17 < eleitl> San Diego is a long way from Texas.
09:20 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 36 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 36 normal]
09:21 < kanzure> eleitl: yesterday i tried my hand at cracking the .sldprt file format, but there's this section of the file that is just raw binary data
09:21 < kanzure> any suggestions?
09:22 < eleitl> I would contact the company. There might be some old stuff on Usenet as well.
09:23 < eleitl> SLDPRT and parser you already tried, I presume?
09:23 < kanzure> as a search query?
09:24 < eleitl> yes. I'm sifting through hits, nothing conclusive so far.
09:24 < kanzure> heh i know how to search- this is why i was doing it myself :/
09:25 < kanzure> huh google groups now searches forums?
09:25 < eleitl> then I have no idea. I haven't had to parse a proprietary format in ages.
09:26 < eleitl> you are going up to spaceup?
09:27 < kanzure> probably not
09:27 < eleitl> how are you funding yourself these days?
09:29 < kanzure> poorly- i'm involved in a lot of initiatives that will start paying out Real Soon Now
09:31 < eleitl> here's hoping that they do.
09:31 < eleitl> don't spread yourself too thinly. Considered contacting the usual suspects/moneybags for funding?
09:32 < kanzure> who are you thinking of?
09:33 < eleitl> kurzweil, rothblatt, others. You probably can just ask around, and have some 15-20 names offered.
09:33 < eleitl> come up with a specific pitch, and ask for funding.
09:34 < eleitl> ask Christine Peterson, too.
09:34 < kanzure> chris has money? i was talking with her yesterday
09:34 < eleitl> no, but she knows a lot of people.
09:35 < eleitl> what is your core activities right now, skdb?
09:35 < kanzure> yes
09:35 < Martyn> Okay, back online
09:35 < kanzure> http://openmanufacturing.org/ has some videos 
09:35 < kanzure> eleitl: i'm putting together a co-op for skdb/hardware package maintainers in different hackerspaces
09:36 < Martyn> kanzure : Create a .sldpart file with blank data
09:36 < eleitl> unfortunately the first hit is the serial killers database, with Jeffrey Dahmer #2 :)
09:36 < Martyn> kanzure : Minimal set
09:36 < kanzure> eleitl: yeah i'm pretty terrible at naming things
09:36 < kanzure> Martyn: i think i have one of those somewhere.
09:36 < kanzure> eleitl: the name of the co-op though is http://gnusha.org/
09:36 < Martyn> if you don't, I can make you one (sldworks 2010 though)
09:36 < eleitl> you can move to #1 with no issues, with a few judicious link placements.
09:36 < kanzure> yep
09:37 < eleitl> so try making SKDB your project for funding.
09:37 < kanzure> just need to find out where to dump the backlinks
09:37 < eleitl> the nano people could be interested, and Peterson seems to be highly interested in rapid prototyping and reprap area as well.
09:38 < eleitl> you probably do not a lot of money to start, right? what is your monthly burn rate right now?
09:38 < kanzure> burning $800/mo
09:38 < kanzure> i don't need much, nope
09:39 < eleitl> that looks reasonably easy to get funded. If people see they're getting results, followup should be also possible.
09:39 < kanzure> (most of that is rent- the rest is utility bills)
09:39 < eleitl> whops, need for afk for 30 min, or so. bbl.
09:40 < kanzure> ok. the problem i keep running into is people tell me they want to give me money, and they never do
09:40 < kanzure> alex lightman. dan stoicescu. andrew hessel.
09:41 < Martyn> Also yesterday Ratha, Matt, Les, myself and kanzure got together for lunch.   We're going to get MakerPlace started first week of January
09:41 < eleitl> you need a structured pitch. afk.
09:41 < kanzure> wtf is makerplace?
09:41 < Martyn> kanzure : That's the business name for what we three had planned.
09:41 < Martyn> well "name"
09:41 < Martyn> It's just the working title we were originally using
09:42 < kanzure> eleitl: when you get back, maybe you can help me with the pitch. i'll send the typical pitch email that i've been using
10:24 < eleitl> back for 20 min
10:25 < eleitl> you should describe a well-defined project for a specific duration, and ask for funding for it.
10:26 < eleitl> make milestones, and what the result would be. make a kind of report, and deliver it for the guy/gal who gave you money.
10:26 < eleitl> there's no way to add atomically accurate descriptors to skdb, right?
10:26 < eleitl> no way = no easy way
10:28 < eleitl> best pitch should be person on person. The shorter you can make it, the better. The more targeted you can make it, the better.
10:31 < kanzure> there's a list of "low hanging fruit projects" that we can attack
10:31 < kanzure> but nobody is interested in the low hanging fruit it seems :(
10:32 < eleitl> it will be very frustrating, but you must just keep on trying.
10:33 < kanzure> yep
10:33 < eleitl> the best chances are person on person. work your way through your network.
10:33 < eleitl> get a list of names from Peterson, get those in your area and try to arrange a pitch opportunity.
10:34 < eleitl> you're asking for some 5-10 kUSD, I presume, to pay for 6-12 months of your time.
10:34 < kanzure> that much money would probably go longer
10:34 < kanzure> but yes that's about the right amount
10:35 < eleitl> I wouldn't ask for less than 5 kUSD.
10:35 < eleitl> is there a way to expand SKDB for parts with atomic coordinates?
10:36 < eleitl> just making the internal coordinate system resolve ~pm or less should be enough.
10:36 < kanzure> yes
10:36 < kanzure> but i can't do picometer-scale work right now
10:36 < kanzure> i mean, we can put in as much nano and subnanotech as we want
10:36 < kanzure> but what use is it if we can't confirm/validate it?
10:36 < eleitl> no, but some 0.1 pm is enough resolution to describe the parts later.
10:37 < eleitl> you can just define blocks with atomically accurate attachment points. How much work is it?
10:37 < kanzure> nanoengineer1 already has some python classes to do that
10:37 < kanzure> i think it's a matter of copy and paste?
10:38 < eleitl> if it's possible, tell Petersen you want to expand SKDB for molecular manufacturing/machine phase usage
10:38 < kanzure> would that get her interested?
10:38 < eleitl> not sure. It's worth a try, since it bridges the macro and the nanoscale fabbing.
10:39 < eleitl> Maybe there are other people interested to see this implemented in a apt-get for matter metaphor.
10:39 < kanzure> tons of people are interested, but never anyone with money :)
10:39 < kanzure> anyway i'm about to hit send on the peterson email
10:39 < kanzure> anything else i should add in there?
10:39 < eleitl> can I see the email before you send it? eleitl@gmail.com or eugen@leitl.org
10:40 < kanzure> okay
10:41 < eleitl> I need to leave in 5 min. I'll give you feedback as soon as I can see it.
10:41 < kanzure> email sent. get to it whenever :) we're all way too busy
10:42 < fenn> busy busy busy
10:43 < kanzure> hi fenn
10:43 < eleitl> sounds good. do it. probably won't work, but do it anyway.
10:43 < kanzure> what won't work?
10:43 < eleitl> petersen won't give you money, but she might give you a list of people. Ask her for a list of people in the email.
10:43 < kanzure> yep did that
10:43 < eleitl> right, right at the top.
10:44 < eleitl> excellent. /me is keeping all digits crossed for you
10:44 < eleitl> okay, I'm away for another 30 min. catch you later. afk.
10:48 < Martyn> kanzure : picometer resolution is too small anyway, nanometer is sufficient for most atomic scale work
10:49  * kanzure nods
10:49 < kanzure> Martyn: are you familiar with drexler, merkle, and freitas' work in this area?
10:49 < Martyn> eleitl : I just looked up what a picometer -is-, and somehow I don't see humanity working on the quark scale in my lifetime
10:49 < kanzure> Martyn: freitas wrote one of my favorite books on kinematic self-replicating machines: http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm
10:50 < Martyn> kanzure : Only in passing.
10:50 < kanzure> interestingly he hosts it on a domain "molecular assembler" even though the amajoriyt of the book is not about molecular assemblers
10:50 < kanzure> *majority
10:51 < Martyn> eleitl : Also, there are problems in nanotech "quantum scale" manufacturing that simply don't exist at the macro level.   I actually don't think there is a good "unified theory of assembly" for both macro and quantum scale devices
10:51 < kanzure> Martyn: eugen is probably more interested in molecular manufacturing
10:51 < Martyn> yeah
10:52 < kanzure> i think the keyword here is "diamondoid synthesis" which isn't quantum (right?)
10:52 < kanzure> technologiclee1: this is your area buddy, feel free to start ranting
10:52 < Martyn> which .. ironically enough .. requires some of the largest machines in the world :)
10:52 < Martyn> kanzure : It still suffers from quantum effects
10:52 < kanzure> i haven't seen the simulations yet
10:52 < kanzure> can you elaborate?
10:52 < kanzure> this isn't my fortay- i'm with you, i prefer to start small (and by that i mean big) and eat some low hanging fruit
10:52 < Martyn> back in a bit .. I need to drive to work to attend a meeting, then back home
10:53 < kanzure> but i might as well learn some more about it
10:53 < kanzure> yeah i've done that before. 1h bus drive, 1h meeting, 1h bus ride back
10:53 < Martyn> Heh.. this is why I repaired and own a car
10:53 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:53 < kanzure> so he doesn't use screen
11:03 < kanzure> fenn: anything new?
11:08 < kanzure> "open source robot arm by oomlout" http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:387
11:15 < eleitl> back
11:16 < kanzure> hope the email was good (be honest)
11:16 < eleitl> the email sounded good to me, but then I'm not necessarily the right person to ask.
11:16 < eleitl> I've never had to pitch much/had a pitch that actually worked.
11:17 < kanzure> are you self-funding your cryonics-europe work?
11:17 < eleitl> we're buying stuff from membership fees, and donations. we're well in excess of our requirements.
11:17 < eleitl> we raised 10 kEUR, we only need about 3 kEUR.
11:18 < eleitl> so far I've blown about 1 kEUR on perfusion packs to last for a decade, and got a roller pump.
11:19 < eleitl> the Martyn guy has gone for good?
11:19 < kanzure> nah he'll be back
11:19 < eleitl> just wanted to set him straight with his questions
11:19 < kanzure> please go ahead
11:21 < eleitl> his mistake is that 0.1 pm resolution is more than you need for nanoscale. In practice, current AFMs already achieve 0.1 pm resolution.
11:21 < eleitl> you need to position atoms accurately. Arguably 0.1 pm is too coarse, and one should go for 0.01 pm. Assuming, you have enough resolution.
11:22 < eleitl> Floats are not enough resolution arguably. 64 bit or 128 bit integers, or scaled integers.
11:22 < eleitl> he also looks for a "unified theory" for manufacturing.
11:22 < kanzure> why do you need to place the atoms precisely? i thought the idea was to have nanotech tooltips that do this for you
11:24 < fenn> eleitl: i think the whole resolution issue is a red herring. the real distinction is whether you define parts by dimensions or procedurally (how to make it, algorithmically)
11:24 < eleitl> the question is not about placement, the issue is describing atomic parts. If your translation resolution is limited to pm scale, that's too coarse.
11:24 < eleitl> fenn, the requirements is having bulk parts and atomically precise parts (molecules) in the same description.
11:24 < eleitl> how they are made is completely outside of scope for time being
11:25 < kanzure> i thought this was the point: making?
11:25 < fenn> i'm not going to write down the description 999 zillion identical molecules
11:25 < fenn> of*
11:25 < fenn> instead you say 'make 999 zillion of these, then glom them together like so'
11:26 < eleitl> fenn, this is why I mentioned bulk above. Bulk meaning, "stuff" of dimensions. If you want to get fancy, use a unit cell and "iterate to fill a given volume"
11:26 < eleitl> but bulk if perfectly fine for time being. If you can specify atomically precise points of attamechment. Bonds.
11:27 < eleitl> realize that this has not been done before in any mainstream CAD. Nor in any NanoCAD.
11:27 < fenn> i dont see why we can't just use existing molecular structure formats for this
11:27 < fenn> maybe i dont understand the problem
11:27 < eleitl> Because you really don't want to specify a 2 m object with .pdb
11:27 < kanzure> in nanoengineer1 you specify bonds between objects
11:28 < kanzure> fenn: me either
11:28 < eleitl> the problem is that molecular scale can't deal with macroscale, and vice versa.
11:28 < fenn> eleitl: can't i do space filling "iterate a unit cell" with pdb though?
11:28 < eleitl> it's not part of .pdb format
11:28 < eleitl> and it doesn't address the issue of "stuff"
11:28 < fenn> what is "stuff"
11:29 < eleitl> placeholder for an object of unspecified composition. deliberately unspecified.
11:29  * fenn wonders if this is a language issue
11:29 < eleitl> specified dimensions, with atomic points of attachment. 
11:29 < fenn> if you don't define what it's made of, how can you know where its bonds will be?
11:30 < fenn> different atom types aren't interchangeable
11:30 < eleitl> basically, this is an issue of having enough coordinate resolution and the system understanding molecular objects + vanilla CAD.
11:30 < eleitl> fenn, you're in premature optimization mode.
11:30 < eleitl> trust me, you'll need this.
11:31 < eleitl> if you want a specific example, "covalently modify an AFM tip with -COOH group".
11:31 < fenn> eleitl: do you know what CAM is? (computer aided manufacturing)
11:31 < eleitl> fenn: yes
11:32 < fenn> one possible interpretation of what you might be saying, sounds like a simple application of CAM to molecular assemblers
11:32 < fenn> but that doesn't really have anything to do with file formats
11:32 < eleitl> this is precisely the domain. But the nanoscale people don't speak macroscale, and vice versa.
11:32 < eleitl> you need a system that can handle both.
11:32 < kanzure> what do you mean "handle"
11:33 < kanzure> what would "handling" imply
11:33 < eleitl> at the very least represent. I realize you want constructor operations, too.
11:33 < kanzure> AFM tip with a functional group attached, so what?
11:33 < eleitl> try to build one in AutoCAD, kanzure.
11:33 < kanzure> why would i?
11:34 < kanzure> er
11:34 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
11:34 < fenn> also perhaps i'm "in premature optimization mode" again, but there's no way to store atomically precise coordinates of a 2 cubic meter object in less volume than 2 cubic meters (excludinge ultradense or exotic matter) so you *have* to describe it algorithmically anyway
11:34 < kanzure> that's not something that i think i should be able to do in autocad
11:34 < eleitl> fenn, now you have found a use for bulk. Congratulations.
11:34 < fenn> gah
11:35 < kanzure> eleitl: we're having trouble understanding you
11:35 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:35 < eleitl> I'm quite used to that
11:35 < eleitl> I'll try to explain why you need this.
11:36 < eleitl> There's a continuum from macroscale to nanoscale, and we're already using macroscale objects which have nanoscale components.
11:36 < eleitl> This will enter fabrication shortly. You need a system in order to describe and especially have a constructive description, to automate contruction.
11:37 < fenn> is a VLSI IC a "bulk" object?
11:37 < eleitl> Such a system does not exist yet. You're at the right time and place to be able to get it in cheaply.
11:37 < fenn> crap that's still ambiguous
11:37 < fenn> say we have a chip that's atomically precise, i can see it with my eyes and hold it in my hand etc
11:37 < eleitl> it can be, fenn. You can of course descibe a piece of bulk as composite.
11:37 < fenn> is that "bulk"?
11:38 < eleitl> you don't want to describe a macroscale piece of silicon or whatever atomically. Theres' no point in it.
11:38 < fenn> yes there is
11:38 < fenn> you could have gates with quantum effects that depend on the number of atoms
11:38 < eleitl> that is no longer a macroscale piece of silicon, but a molecular device which is attached to a macroscale piece of silicon.
11:39 < kanzure> why is that different
11:39 < fenn> epitaxial growth is atomically precise
11:39 < fenn> that's part of why IC's are so friggin expensive - the need for a single huge crystal
11:39 < eleitl> use a descriptor for bulk, and attach your device to it. Which can be as simple as specifiying objects of certain geometry and certain properties, and also attaching molecular or atomic parts.
11:40 < eleitl> fenn, in crystallography you just use a "face"
11:40 < eleitl> a wafer surface of a given face and treatment is quite enough.
11:40 < kanzure> so you're talking about a mixed representation of nanoscale and macroscale objects, where we specify how to place things in particular areas?
11:40 < fenn> is that "bulk"? even though it's atomically precise?
11:41 < eleitl> of course the treatment changes the surface, but that is not important in production.
11:41 < eleitl> yes, kanzure.
11:41 < kanzure> so, make a wafer with some manufacturing process- like epitaxis, and then place on some molecules to functionalize different parts, might be one possible app?
11:41 < kanzure> this doesn't sound like the original vision for molecular nanotechnology
11:41 < eleitl> you can of course use a better representation, when you want to attach a group to a specific silicon atom
11:42 < eleitl> kanzure, this is an internal representation format. If you need a vision, use drugs.
11:43 < fenn> there's no difference between assembling a huge grid of silicon atoms and using a self-assembled crystal
11:43 < eleitl> you can use a crystallographic descriptor, if you want to attach a group to a particular silicon atom, and want to make sure your crystal lattice is accurately described.
11:44 < eleitl> fenn, are you having constructor operator issues, or what is the question?
11:44 < fenn> i just dont see the point of differentiating between "bulk" and "molecular"
11:45 < eleitl> so you want to represent phenol as bulk?
11:45 < fenn> i just say "this is a silicon wafer, with such and such crystalline orientation" and i can make it several different ways
11:45 < kanzure> 1 molar phenol is a reasonable representation, eleitl 
11:46 < eleitl> covalently attached phenol to a specific location isn't.
11:46 < eleitl> single molecule.
11:46 < eleitl> anyways, this is your party. You don't want to do it, you don't do it. I'm just here to suggest things.
11:47 < fenn> i can define its dimensions down to the attometer but that doesn't mean all continuous values are possible to make (can't make a non integer number of atoms)
11:47 < kanzure> well we're still not sure what "it" is, sorry
11:47 < eleitl> fenn, you can have translational motion of one atomically accurate part past another.
11:47 < kanzure> i can imagine creating a phenol object in my code, and saying it's at such-and-such location. what's the big deal?
11:48 < eleitl> the big deal is that mature code bases for both types of objects exist. But not in the same system. Got it?
11:48 < kanzure> ok, and putting them together does what?
11:48 < eleitl> putting them together for a system today can allow it to go places beyond your wildest dreams.
11:49 < fenn> i thought you were against all that vision stuff
11:49 < eleitl> you wanted vision? here's your vision.
11:50 < eleitl> want another useless suggestion? Put a voxel renderer in there.
11:50 < fenn> how about we just use nano-engineer1
11:51 < eleitl> Jim van Ehr didn't want voxels in the original software. Strangely enough, years later they did put voxel rendering in.
11:51 < eleitl> fenn, describe a 30 cm ball bearing with nano-engineer1.
11:51 < eleitl> a particular ball bearing, with fingerprints and some rust.
11:52 < fenn> it will take a few million years to type in, but doesn't seem theoretically impossible?
11:52 < eleitl> you want this to run on a desktop PC today.
11:52 < fenn> no i don't
11:52 < kanzure> why not?
11:52 < fenn> it's silly
11:52 < eleitl> you won't, fine. I'm done.
11:52 < fenn> they're not powerful enough
11:52 < kanzure> eleitl: well, i'm interested
11:53 < kanzure> eleitl: i don't think it would be hard to prototype some of this together
11:53 < kanzure> of course, making sure it actually works is another story
11:54 < kanzure> hm
11:54 < eleitl> in practice you need just one thing at first: really high resolution for your objects
11:54 < kanzure> you said 64bit floats wouldn't do it?
11:54 < fenn> we can do arbitrary numbers of decimal points with yaml
11:54 < eleitl> how large objects can you describe? something 100 km long?
11:54 < kanzure> yes
11:55 < eleitl> the problem with floats is that they're not equispaced resolution across the whole dynamic range
11:55 < eleitl> you need to crunch the numbers to see how this will bite you. For all I know 64 bit floats *might* be enough.
11:56 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
11:57 < kanzure> right now you can also impossibly small objects
11:57 < kanzure> maybe a good first step would be making sure it knows when a boundary representation model is too small to possibly exist
11:57 < fenn> eleitl: do you want to use arbitrary precision arithmetic for all calculations? talk about premature optimization..
11:57 < eleitl> can you place a specific object at 0.01 pm position?
11:58 < kanzure> eleitl: yes but unfortunately you can also do it at 1e-50 meter resolution :(
11:58 < eleitl> most industrial CAD can't do it
11:58 < eleitl> do you use 64 bit floats?
11:58 < kanzure> we let python handle that
11:58 < fenn> opencascade has an adjustable 'fuzz factor' which is set to 1e-7m by default
11:59 < kanzure> fenn: i don't think opencascade should be used for atomically precise parts
11:59 < fenn> i don't either
11:59 < kanzure> nanoengineer1 had some python classes for some of this
11:59 < kanzure> anyway it's worth investigating
12:00 < fenn> i also dont understand why we have to do everything in some single huge simulation
12:00 < kanzure> hm?
12:00 < kanzure> what are you talking about?
12:00 < kanzure> what simulation?
12:00 < fenn> you can simulate some small 'unit' of crystal with chemistry tools, and you can simulate bulk objects with engineering tools
12:00 < fenn> we dont have to do it at the same time
12:01 < kanzure> i don't think we're talking about simulation
12:01 < kanzure> we're just talking about representation
12:01 < fenn> i mean once you characterize the crystal unit, you dont have to repeat that calculation a zillion times
12:01 < eleitl> yes, fenn, you do have to handle both, but you'll figure that out the hard way.
12:01 < fenn> eleitl: you are being misleading with all this bulk stuff
12:01 < fenn> either it's a simple structure of repeating units or it's arbitrarily complex
12:01 < fenn> which are you talking about?
12:02 < eleitl> I have not been misleading. I have no control over your interpretation, of course.
12:02 < kristianpaul> kanzure: guess you are using pythonocc and opencascade
12:02 < eleitl> fenn, describe an AFM tip with a particular pattern of covelent modifications.
12:02 < kanzure> kristianpaul: sadly, yes
12:02 < kristianpaul> but ahve you check the licence of it  jpmandon> kristianpaul, for opencascade ?
12:02 < eleitl> covalent.
12:02 < kanzure> kristianpaul: what? rephrase please?
12:03 < kanzure> jpmandon?
12:03 < fenn> eleitl: and i cant do this with pdb?
12:03 < kristianpaul> http://www.opencascade.org/getocc/license/
12:03 < kristianpaul> kanzure: sorry
12:03 < eleitl> fenn: you can't do that with .pdb
12:03 < fenn> why not?
12:03  * kristianpaul having troubles with clipboard
12:03 < kanzure> kristianpaul: "LGPL-like"
12:03 < kristianpaul> like..
12:03 < kanzure> kristianpaul: yeah i know
12:03 < eleitl> because an AFM tip is some ~mm scale.
12:03 < kristianpaul> kanzure: ok
12:03 < kanzure> kristianpaul: it has always been a big issue, and preferably we will one day just rewrite opencascade
12:03 < fenn> but we only care about the very tip
12:04 < kanzure> pdb doesn't do repeating structures.. it just stores all of the data 
12:04 < eleitl> fenn, we want to descibe a macroscale part with a trillion tips. Which fill a large room.
12:04 < kristianpaul> kanzure: have you tought about other software like pythonocc but based on GTS library wich is in python also
12:04 < eleitl> But each part is modified, and differently. 
12:04 < fenn> and that's an algorithmic description
12:04 < kristianpaul> i think k3d uses it
12:04 < kanzure> kristianpaul: GTS is for meshes only, unfortunately that's not useful to us
12:04 < kristianpaul> kanzure: :(
12:04 < kristianpaul> kanzure: us, what else about meshes need?
12:04 < kanzure> kristianpaul: what?
12:04 < kristianpaul> you mean for parametrics
12:04 < kanzure> parametric modeling is useful too yes
12:05 < kanzure> meshes aren't solid geometry models
12:05 < kanzure> they aren't even CSG
12:05 < kristianpaul> hmm
12:05 < kristianpaul> well i dont understand well that topic, but i think i got the point
12:06 < kristianpaul> general point*
12:06 < kristianpaul> kanzure: ahve you tied opencasd?
12:06 < kristianpaul> have you tried*
12:06 < Utopiah> (you probably all know that but I still found it pretty well done http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/begin/cells/scale/ )
12:06 < kanzure> kristianpaul: yes there's no way to convert data from openscad to anything more useful yet. just to meshes..
12:06 < kanzure> meshes aren't useful
12:07 < kristianpaul> kanzure: i'm looking similar software to openscad
12:07 < kristianpaul> do you have idea?
12:07 < kanzure> kristianpaul: have you tried heekscad?
12:07 < kristianpaul> kanzure: yup, i like and is opencascade again there !! : S
12:07 < kristianpaul> but is easy to use
12:08 < kristianpaul> blender is not was i'm looking for
12:08 < kristianpaul> AOI wel... i can give a  try...
12:08 < kanzure> AOI is just more mesh stuff
12:08 < kanzure> sorry :(
12:08 < kristianpaul> :(
12:08 < kanzure> what's wrong with heekscad?
12:09 < kristianpaul> opencascade weird lgpl like licence
12:09 < kristianpaul> but..
12:09 < kanzure> don't worry about that: we can always rewrite opencascade on our own
12:09 < kanzure> and heekscad won't have to change much (it will probably look roughly the same)
12:09 < kristianpaul> ok :)
12:09 < kristianpaul> kanzure: i was tring to compile you software that is in cvs
12:09 < kristianpaul> i'm about
12:09 < kanzure> hm that's interesting
12:09 < kanzure> except i don't have a CVS repository
12:10 < kanzure> so i'm very confused
12:10 < kristianpaul> any recomendation?
12:10 < kristianpaul> hmm
12:10 < kristianpaul> me too
12:10 < kristianpaul> wait
12:10 < kristianpaul> kanzure: http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/ ?
12:10 < kanzure> yeah that's in git
12:10 < fenn> Utopiah: i had the book version of "powers of ten" as a kid: www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2cmlhfdxuY
12:10 < kanzure> so you can run: sudo apt-get install git-core
12:11 < kanzure> kristianpaul: then run: git clone http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb.git
12:11 < kristianpaul> kanzure: git ok, lets called cvs ;)
12:11 < kristianpaul> yes i did
12:11 < kanzure> kristianpaul: check the file skdb/doc/installing
12:11 < kristianpaul> ok
12:11 < kanzure> it should list all of the steps for installing everything
12:12 < Utopiah> fenn: no need to click, I remember ;)
12:12 < Utopiah> (but I stil did :-# nearly magnetic)
12:23 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:24 -!- mindspillage [n=kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
12:30 -!- mindspillage [n=kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:43 -!- KrisC [n=admin@207-172-233-39.c3-0.eas-ubr3.atw-eas.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:44 < kanzure> hey KrisC 
12:45 < KrisC> happy Crimbo
12:45 < KrisC> how goes the plotting and scheming?
12:49 < KrisC> so I started in on the archived chat logs. This vacation hasn't given me the time expected. I got some DIYBIO questions.
12:50 < KrisC> What can you make now, and what is your goal with the tech?
12:50 < kanzure> hm.. can i make myself some lunch first? :/ i'll brb
12:50 < KrisC> lol sure
12:51 < KrisC> big questions 
12:53 < eleitl> what do you want to do KrisC?
12:54 < KrisC> plastics from algae
12:54 < KrisC> and paper
12:55 < eleitl> algae is not a good match for plastics
12:55 < KrisC> I know
12:55 < kanzure> algae is quite doable on an amateur level though
12:55 < KrisC> but it grows compactly
12:56 < kanzure> i was growing neochloris for a while
12:56 < eleitl> figuring out a hardy strain and according harvesting would be a good project
12:56 < kanzure> had to keep track of ph, growth medium, etc.
12:56 < kanzure> yes
12:57 < eleitl> if you want to use algae as a source of energy then energy-efficient harvesting is surprisingly hard
12:57 < kanzure> yep.. i was on a DARPA project for that
12:57 < kanzure> and the professor didn't get that
12:57 < kanzure> eleitl: did i ever show you the harvestor we designed? it was ridiculous
12:57 < kanzure> it was a scaled-up microfluidic algae/water separator
12:57 < eleitl> lipid-rich strains typically only make lipids when starving
12:58 < eleitl> never knew you were into algae, kanzure.
12:58 < kanzure> i'm everywhere :)
12:58 < eleitl> you want something that floculates spontaneously, or can be skimmed.
12:58 < eleitl> careful with the trades, jack.
12:59 < KrisC> by all means, if you have a better idea for a home-grown 3D print stock...
12:59 < KrisC> (*cough* hemp)
13:00 < eleitl> what have we here, hempen hempen
13:00 < eleitl> here will I never thread nor stampen
13:00 < kanzure> eleitl: we have http://utex.org/ here in austin
13:00 < kanzure> largest algae collection in the world
13:01 < kanzure> i wanted to do some genetic engineering to make the algae kindly give up their lipids when we ask them
13:01 < kanzure> DARPA said no genetic engineering :/
13:01 < eleitl> do you have any lakes or eutrophied lagoons in the area?
13:01 < kanzure> no, we were going to use shrimp ponds
13:01 < eleitl> in CA there's Salton sea
13:01 < eleitl> shrimp ponds are good, a friend of mine wanted to do that in Thailand
13:02 < eleitl> growing algae in fish/shrimp ponds
13:02 < eleitl> is Max/Natasha in your area?
13:02 < eleitl> I forget where they live.
13:03 < kanzure> they live down the street
13:04 < eleitl> have they invited you over?
13:04 < kanzure> yeah we hang out from time to time
13:04 < kanzure> :)
13:04 < eleitl> I used to visit them on parties, in Marina del Rey.
13:04 < kanzure> oddly enough i last saw natasha up in irvine, california a few weeks ago
13:05 < kanzure> why doesn't max go to these conferences?
13:05 < eleitl> at the event?
13:05  * kanzure nods
13:05 < eleitl> I have the impression Max is massively disillusioned with the whole transhumanism thing. As a movement, at least.
13:05 < eleitl> He probably expected a lot more traction. It was a waste of his time.
13:06 < eleitl> my impression, of course. Just ask him.
13:06 < kanzure> no, i've talked with him
13:06 < kanzure> that's basically my impression too
13:06 < kanzure> he's also working on his latest book
13:07 < eleitl> see, Drexler dropped out, too.
13:07 < eleitl> a pity, actually.
13:07 < kanzure> oh really? what happened with drexler?
13:07 < kanzure> i met anders up in new york city a few months ago. he is pretty neat :)
13:08 < kanzure> i keep wondering why freitas is focusing on nanotech these days.. his KSRM book really kicked ass, and it needs him
13:08 < eleitl> I last saw Anders in Milan, Italy. That was in November?
13:08 < kanzure> yes
13:08 < eleitl> the whole nano thing is curious. It is not very efficient, to say the least.
13:09 < eleitl> Perry Metzger has been doing a lot of nano lately. He's in NYC.
13:09 < eleitl> What he said so far does not inspire me with confidence.
13:13 -!- flamt [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1176374559.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap
13:17 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"]
13:20 < eleitl> kanzure, how old are you, 19?
13:21 < kanzure> eleitl: yes
13:21 < kanzure> 20 on 2010-01-04
13:21 < eleitl> do you want to study, or do you want to try things outside of the ivory tower?
13:21 < kanzure> i'm taking a break from the ivory tower right now
13:22 < eleitl> do you want to come back from the break? degree or no degree?
13:22 < kanzure> i may come back one day in the future. not right now.
13:22 < KrisC> happy early birthday
13:22 < kanzure> thanks KrisC 
13:23 < KrisC> so what are you working on now?
13:23 < eleitl> it is a decision of sorts. If you stay outside, you can go the enterpreneur route.
13:23 < kanzure> eleitl: that's what i'm doing right now
13:24 < kanzure> KrisC: too many things to count, i'm sorry i haven't given you a direct answer
13:24 < eleitl> can you give me a full dump, or is this secret?
13:24 < kanzure> KrisC: http://gnusha.org/ is the latest
13:24 < kanzure> eleitl: no it's not secret. the full dump is that i'm not taking classes next semester so i can focus on skdb and so on
13:24 < eleitl> brb, got to get the kid to bed
13:27 -!- flamt_ [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1176374559.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:28 < kanzure> KrisC: i guess the latest that i've been working on is the website front-end to skdb
13:29 < KrisC> I considered ganesha, and several variants, for my site name
13:29 < kanzure> hah :)
13:29 < KrisC> "remover of barriers"
13:29 < kanzure> gnusha is the hardware co-op idea, where skdb package maintainers infiltrate.. er.. hang out at hackerspaces around the world to help maintain open source hardware projects, build cool stuff
13:30 < kanzure> profits and revenue from running a machine at some spot go into local overhead but also back into the co-op in general to buy more tools, improve performance, etc.
13:31 < KrisC> very cool, how many operatives do you have in the field?
13:31 < kanzure> haha :)
13:31 < kanzure> right now i guess we have fenn and ybit, but there's more that don't know it yet 
13:31 < kanzure> "sleeper agents" :)
13:32 < KrisC> haha, yeah, a lot of my people don't know that they are working for me
13:32 < kanzure> what i need to be doing is writing technical documentation
13:32 < kanzure> blah
13:32 < kanzure> ybit: how's the .deb coming along?
13:33 < kanzure> this is going to become like a classic catch phrase or something. jeebus..
13:55 -!- areyna3 [n=chatzill@75-1-75-31.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:00 -!- MrClif [n=clif@c-67-189-77-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #hplusroadmap []
14:23 < kanzure> hey areyna3 
14:36 < eleitl> http://www.serialkillerdatabase.net/jeffreydahmer.html <-- nice favicon
14:36 < eleitl> http://www.steorn.com/skdb/ <-- jesus fuck, did you plan this?
14:37 < kanzure> no :(
14:37 < eleitl> you probably couldn't have done this if you planned this.
14:37 < eleitl> we need to fix this somewhat soon.
14:38 < eleitl> unfortunately, I don't currently have high-Googlejuice sites
14:38 < kanzure> i have some link spamming tools i wrote
14:39 < eleitl> just a few external links would do. No need to spam anything.
14:39 < kanzure> the main problem is that the dokuwiki skdb page doesn't even show up in the first 100 google search results
14:39 < kanzure> we link to it constantly though
14:39 < kanzure> so it's peculiar.
14:50 < eleitl> remarkable. I just looked at my bank account, and there's money there. A regular miracle.
14:50 < eleitl> not going to last, of course.
14:50 < ybit> kanzure: it hasn't been touched since the last tim we talked, i keep getting distracted with work, stupid traditions around this of the year, family get togethers, xmonad, unbricking my router, the farm, sata drive issues, and interesting papers that i keep finding
14:51 < ybit> hi eleitl, heath matlock here
14:51 < eleitl> hi heath! /me waves
14:51  * kanzure just cleaned up http://designfiles.org/
14:51 < kanzure> maybe i'll put a web page there?
14:51 < kanzure> just threw everything miscellaneous into http://designfiles.org/~bryan/
14:51 < kanzure> it's on a university connection, and i can give it some juicy links from .edu sites
14:51 < ybit> er
14:52 < ybit> ah
14:52  * ybit was looking at http://designfiles.com/~bryan/
14:53 < eleitl> very nice. Do you have a tarball of http://designfiles.org/papers/ ?
14:53 < kanzure> eleitl: this might be faster: http://bio.cc/Bioinformics/papers/
14:53 < ybit> my goal is to have the sata issues resolved and it would be nice to have the h+ archive and .deb ready for new year's
14:54 < ybit> if not, slap me with a trout
14:54 < eleitl> your SATA disks are on the fritz?
14:54 < ybit> my computer just isn't recognizing it
14:54 < eleitl> sounds like a bad disk
14:54 < ybit> well, it is, but it's saying that the connection is down or something, i'll have to get the logs
14:55 < ybit> i sent my 1tb drive to bryan and he and fenn were uploading all their stuff on it
14:55 < ybit> did it so i wouldn't be raping their server and hogging their bandwidth
14:55 < eleitl> 1 TByte traffic is cheap these days. Around 13 EUR.
14:55 < kanzure> eleitl: there's an archive of the microfluidics subset: http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics_2009-06-01.zip
14:55 < ybit> next thing is to rape your server eleitl and also add papers from bio.cc and papers that have superkuh has
14:56 < ybit> -have
14:56 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure there was a .tar.gz somewhere around here.. hrm..
14:56 < eleitl> feel free to rape my server
14:56 < kanzure> how kind of you
14:57 < eleitl> there will be some downtime around turn of the year, need to renumber the network, install new firewall.
14:59 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/m385de36c
14:59 < ybit> that's what i'm faced with the sata drive
14:59 < kanzure> eleitl: christine suggested a guy named "josh hall" ?
14:59 < eleitl> JoSH
14:59 < eleitl> John Storrs Hall, IIRC.
15:00 < eleitl> the SATA codes don't tell me much. Can you stick the drive into a different system?
15:00 < eleitl> What does BIOS say on reboot? smartmontools?
15:03 < kanzure> hm lots of fancy names on this page: http://foresight.org/conf2010/
15:03 < kanzure> hod lipson too?
15:03 < eleitl> http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=SStatus+FFFFFFFF+SControl+FFFFFFFF&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=52e8f388e5caca67 <-- did you try?
15:03 < kanzure> oh it's just the typical crew
15:05 < eleitl> I'm not sure how many of them will give you money. Asking JoSH doesn't hurt.
15:05 < eleitl> Freitas and Merkle won't.
15:06 < kanzure> i didn't know they had any money
15:06 < kanzure> i would gladly work for freitas for free
15:06 < eleitl> that's why they won't -- they don't. At least not 5-10 kUSD to random strangers.
15:06 < kanzure> wtf
15:06 < kanzure> one of their topics is "open source in manufacturing"
15:07 < kanzure> how can they be talking about open source in manufacturing without any open manufacturing people?
15:07 < eleitl> just write to Freitas, then.
15:08 < eleitl> at the rate IPv4 address space is going I better secure me another /24
15:08 < eleitl> there's gold in thar them hills
15:10 < kanzure> oh i guess they can claim that hod is there for the 'open manufacturing' part
15:10 < kanzure> meh
15:10 < eleitl> who is that hod fellow?
15:10 < kanzure> hod lipson is my professor's arch nemesis
15:10 < kanzure> http://fabathome.org/
15:10 < kanzure> hod and matt do automated design
15:10 < kanzure> http://www.mae.cornell.edu/Lipson/
15:11 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~campbell/index.htm
15:12 < eleitl> right, have seen some of his stuff before.
15:12 < ybit> 10:52 < kanzure> i think the keyword here is "diamondoid synthesis" which isn't quantum (right?)
15:12 < ybit> diamondoid made me chuckle
15:12  * ybit is reading the log
15:12 < eleitl> adamantane, diamantane
15:13 < kanzure> diamond mechanosynthesis is what i meant :)
15:13 < eleitl> perfectly cromulent words
15:13 < eleitl> graphene
15:13 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/graphene.html ?
15:14 < kanzure> heh the ads on the page are relevant \o/
15:14 < eleitl> there are ads on the page? ;)
15:14 < kanzure> bottom
15:14 < kanzure> meh
15:15 < ybit> last time i talked with hod, he was pushing hard the fab@home machine
15:15 < kanzure> hey where did this come from?
15:15 < kanzure> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/afpip/?sort=new
15:16 < kanzure> "huh. it would be neat if it could integrate with a lot of different online stores automatically finding you the cheapest foobar.
15:16 < kanzure> i wouldn't have expected reddit to be the right crowd
15:16 < eleitl> I didn't submit it for sure.
15:16 < eleitl> reddit can vary. /me has 13 k comment karma
15:18 < eleitl> kanzure 0 points1 point2 points 35 seconds ago[-]
15:19 < kanzure> hm?
15:19 < ybit> i know you guys are working with what you have in austin, but paying rent seems like a waste of money
15:19 < ybit> would be nice if you had, say, 37 acres to start building whatever you needed
15:19 < kanzure> i don't think so, ybit
15:19 < ybit> :)
15:19 < kanzure> if i'm moving, i'm moving to the bay area
15:20 < eleitl> bay area still good for technology things?
15:20 < ybit> too bad my land is based in the heart of the bible belt, but like i was telling jeremiah last night, i've been vocal recently about personal manufacturing to locals here, and there are quite a lot of people that get excited
15:21 < eleitl> land is good. keep it.
15:21 < kanzure> eleitl: bay area has the critical mass of people
15:21 < ybit> we start leveling the land this weekend
15:21 < ybit> the kind that know what are going on, less time needed in changing minds
15:21 < eleitl> bay area might start losing people. But, who knows.
15:22 < kanzure> eleitl: we're setting up a hackerspace in the austin area
15:22 < eleitl> if you want to actually make things happening, Bay Area might be the wrong location. But, I'm the wrong person to ask.
15:22 < kanzure> and ybit is concerned that i'm wasting money if i help pay the rent
15:23 -!- areyna3 [n=chatzill@75-1-75-31.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
15:23 < eleitl> no idea. I'm more than twice your age, and I went back to Germany, so I'm pretty much opposite polarity.
15:23 < eleitl> if I was young and single I'd probably go East. Way East.
15:23 < kanzure> ah you were out of germany for a while?
15:23 < kanzure> hey wait
15:23 < kanzure> you ran wta for a while?
15:23 < ybit> i'm just concerned that the money spent on rent isn't helping you build infrastructure in the most efficient manner, i.e. you could lose that building 
15:23 < kanzure> what the fuck is wrong with this org, eugen?
15:23 < eleitl> I lived two years in SoCal, working for 21CM and CCR.
15:24 < kanzure> it listed you as a former executive director of WTA
15:24 < kanzure> just something i remember reading somewhere
15:24 < eleitl> forget WTA, it's dead, Dead, DEAD.
15:24 < kanzure> yeah i know
15:24 < kanzure> but still, what happened
15:24 < kanzure> and how can i make sure that doesn't happen again
15:24  * ybit is curious as well
15:24 < ybit> news to me
15:25 < eleitl> it's mostly politics, and takeover of an org, and then everybody dropping their balls.
15:25 < eleitl> human nature. 
15:26 < ybit> good thing i'm transhuman and tape my balls?
15:26  * eleitl is transsimian
15:26 < ybit> this is the time someone slaps me with a trout on irc
15:26 < eleitl> kanzure, if you have something nice going, then people come and will try to take over.
15:27 < ybit> eleitl has a point
15:27 < eleitl> so, either don't try to have something nice going, or prepare for that eventuality
15:28 < eleitl> at this point, I'm just trying to have a functional group of people doing local cryonics
15:28 < eleitl> as far as I can see, this is not going to happen
15:28 < ybit> fenn: are you back in austin?
15:28 < kanzure> no fenn is not back
15:29 < eleitl> so far, entire transhumanism was a completely wasted effort on my part
15:29 < ybit> entire h+? are you saying you were spread out too thin on many projects?
15:29 < eleitl> you don't seem to be making that mistake, kanzure. Good for you.
15:30 < eleitl> Having actual projects is good. Just talking with people is bad. Nothing will come out of it.
15:30 < ybit> or thinking too far into the future and not being practical
15:30 < eleitl> So, raise money, do real things, don't bother with blah blah.
15:30 < kanzure> eleitl: i've learned that the rule is that "people suck"
15:30 < eleitl> some even swallow.
15:31 < kanzure> if you ask her nicely
15:31 < ybit> unless she's into bdsm
15:32 < xp_prg> you guys are going to shit on yourselves when you hear what I am going to get to do tonight
15:32 < kanzure> that's the second time you've mentioned that
15:32 < kanzure> xp_prg: go away
15:32 < ybit> anyone had experience with the issues i'm having with my sata drive, guess i can ask in ##linux
15:32 < ybit> or #hardware
15:33 < kanzure> ##linux will know.
15:33 -!- genehacker2 [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:33 < kanzure> eleitl: i still can't figure out who todd is. he's everywhere i go. 
15:33 < kanzure> and he always has plenty of women hanging off of him
15:33 < xp_prg> I am going to lively labs where they are going to allow memberships to use all their equipment patent free in a "collabratory"
15:33 < kanzure> yes we know about livly
15:33 < eleitl> todd spent a night at our home.
15:33 < xp_prg> he is going to help me with my bioprinting stuff too
15:33 < kanzure> john scholndorn is into longevity and anti-cancer stuff
15:33 < kanzure> john or michael?
15:33 < eleitl> so, he is everywhere :)
15:34 < xp_prg> I will be talking with John tonight
15:34 < eleitl> we met at the Oxford whole brain emulation thing.
15:34 < kanzure> xp_prg: say hi to john for me
15:34 < kanzure> eleitl: a society of neuroscience meetup?
15:34 < xp_prg> ok, is that not cool?!
15:34 < kanzure> xp_prg: no, because you're wasting john's time
15:34 < xp_prg> no I am not!
15:34 < kanzure> please go away
15:35 < xp_prg> I am working on a project with Drew Endy bitch
15:35 < kanzure> hahaha
15:35 < xp_prg> get over yourself
15:35 < eleitl> that uehiro event which resulted in http://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/3853/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf
15:35 < xp_prg> he came and talked at my bio group
15:35 < kanzure> i'm sorry, i can't stop laughing over here. it hurts.
15:36 < xp_prg> what else would I have to do to get your respect?
15:36 < kanzure> go the fuck away and never come back
15:36 < xp_prg> everyone else thinks it is cool what I am doing
15:36 < kanzure> you don't learn
15:36 < kanzure> you make everyone do your work for you
15:36 < xp_prg> except when I don't :>
15:36 < kanzure> and frankly i've known you for over a year and you haven't changed
15:36 < kanzure> go away
15:36 < xp_prg> getting Drew Endy to come talk at my bio group is nothing?
15:37 < xp_prg> I give up on your stupid ass then
15:37 < kanzure> please do
15:38 < eleitl> time to hit the sack. you take care, guys.
15:38 < ybit> john is into longevity, i stalked him before speaking with him at h+
15:38 < ybit> summit
15:39 < eleitl> good night.
15:39 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"]
15:39 < ybit> 15:35 < xp_prg> I am working on a project with Drew Endy bitch
15:39 < ybit> lol, i think that sums up drew's work ;)
15:39 < kanzure> john does a lot of stuff
15:39 < xp_prg> you guys amaze me, he is the father of synthetic biology, you diss synbio?
15:39 < kanzure> xp_prg: go away
15:40 < xp_prg> why do you guys act the way you do, I will never understand it, oh well
15:41 < kanzure> we've already told you
15:41 < xp_prg> I kick names, and take ass all day long, nobody cares in here for some reason
15:41 < kanzure> no you don't
15:41 < kanzure> go away
15:43 < xp_prg> I KICK ASS ALL DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:43 < xp_prg> know this, learn this, love this :>
15:46 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 34 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 34 normal]
15:50 < KrisC> Kanzure, your wealth of links reminds me that their are not anough hours in a day
15:50 < KrisC> there
15:50 < ybit> xp_prg: this is highly related to your situation: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
15:50 < genehacker2> there aren't
15:50 < xp_prg> ybit I know this already thanks
15:51 < genehacker2> that's what space mirrors are for
15:52 < KrisC> you know, they used to say (in classical Rome) that an educated man would be THOROUGHLY eductaed, knowledgable in every science
15:52 < KrisC> at that was from some guy you paid on the street corner
15:53 < genehacker2> well the problem is science is getting too complex for polymath's these days
15:53 < kanzure> bullshit
15:53 < genehacker2> how so?
15:54 < genehacker2> am I blinded by the every increasing specialization?
15:54 -!- Spance3000 [n=Foonever@manxo.me] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:54 < kanzure> hey Spance3000 
15:54 < Spance3000> hello, kanzure 
15:54 < kanzure> what's up?
15:55 < kanzure> where do you hail from on the webs?
15:55 < ybit> manxo.me of course
15:55 < Spance3000> kanzure: reddit, you (or someone who stole your name!) invited me because of my sparkfun-apt-get joke
15:55 < kanzure> oh yay
15:55 < ybit> ah :)
15:55 < kanzure> yep that was me
15:56 < Spance3000> and I now site your site involves legos and python. that's definitely enough to make me stick around for a while
15:56  * kanzure nods
15:56 < kanzure> legos + python is a geekgasm in of itself
15:58 < genehacker2> didn't know you were a redditor kanzure
15:58 < kanzure> i'm not
15:59 < genehacker2> oh
15:59 < Spance3000> so someone DID steal your name!
15:59 < kanzure> nope, that was me
15:59 < kanzure> i just don't use reddit often
15:59 < kanzure> i'm guessing a redditor is some reddit addict or something?
15:59 < genehacker2> a user of reddit
16:00 < kristianpaul> kanzure: http://www.pearlbiotech.com in real life aplications what is this for if you know?
16:00 < Spance3000> I've got like 5 reddit accounts, that doesn't count as an addict, does it?
16:00 < kanzure> kristianpaul: it's a load of shit, ignore it
16:00 < genehacker2> 5 accounts?
16:00 < kristianpaul> ok
16:00 < kanzure> kristianpaul: if you wanted a gel box, we'll show you how to cut one yourself
16:00 < genehacker2> yeah you might be an addict
16:01 < kristianpaul> kanzure: show !
16:01 < kristianpaul> :)
16:01 < kanzure> kristianpaul: did you see michael katsveman's gel box schematic generator?
16:01 < kristianpaul> nope
16:01 < kanzure> righto well that's a good place to start. let me dig
16:01  * kristianpaul googling
16:02 < ybit> any of those? http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=michael+katsevman+gel+box&btnG=Search&sitesearch=
16:02  * ybit didn't see it either
16:02 < kanzure> kristianpaul: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/f2ea1e440cc7258e
16:03 < kanzure> it is detailed here: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/4f2b19be43ad649f/fb0cb0b7d6bf9b35?lnk=gst&q=electrophoresis.py#fb0cb0b7d6bf9b35
16:03 < ybit> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/4f2b19be43ad649f/fb0cb0b7d6bf9b35?q=michael+katsevman+gel+box#fb0cb0b7d6bf9b35
16:03 < kanzure> http://logarchy.org/electrophoresis.py
16:03 < ybit> ah, yeah, that's it
16:03 < kanzure> ybit: please note, i don't actually know how to spell his name
16:03 < kanzure> "katsevman" is the correct way apparently
16:03 < ybit> np, that's what google is for
16:04 < Utopiah> (more about crowdsourcing http://www.openinnovators.net/list-open-innovation-crowdsourcing-examples/ )
16:05 < ybit> that's a nice little script
16:05 < kanzure> ybit: haha i thought you knew about it?
16:06 < ybit> nope, but thank you for pointing it out
16:06 < kanzure> huh he's on the tsi-book-dev mailing list too
16:06 < kanzure> that's right, he was into seasteading wasn't he?
16:06 < ybit> i miss important emails often
16:40 < xp_prg> kristianpaul I am assisting with fab of that product
16:41 < xp_prg> I also assisted the initial designer with prototyping the approach
16:41 < kanzure> tito didn't write that script, sorry xp_prg
16:41 < xp_prg> I am talking about the hardware
16:42 < kanzure> the $200 google sketchup mesh model?
16:42 < xp_prg> ya
16:42 < xp_prg> I am assisting him with lasering the acrylic
16:42 < kanzure> i think you should go now
16:42 < xp_prg> why?
16:43 < xp_prg> ybit do you see why I get confused?
16:46 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:46 < kanzure> hello Martyn 
16:46 < xp_prg> kristianpaul it is possible to do electrophoresis without a "gel box" if you will
16:46 < xp_prg> just in case your wondering
16:46 < Martyn> well .. that took about 5 hours longer than I thought it would
16:46 < Martyn> hi Tim
16:46 < kanzure> oh god you know xp_prg 
16:46 < xp_prg> hi Martyn, do I know you?
16:46 < Martyn> yes, yes you do.  #noisebridge
16:46 < kristianpaul> xp_prg: i dont if i want yet
16:47 < xp_prg> oh wow cool
16:47 < xp_prg> have we met personally?
16:47 < xp_prg> remind me of you
16:47  * Martyn recounted the take of NoiseFridge last week
16:47 < Martyn> take/tale
16:47 < xp_prg> hahahha!
16:47 < xp_prg> that noisefridge is in the Tech Shop now!
16:47 < Martyn> I'm aware .. Jim and I talked about it
16:48 < xp_prg> oh cool!
16:48 < Martyn> Heh.
16:48 < Martyn> small world, anyway
16:49 < xp_prg> you inti bio?
16:49 < Martyn> kanzure : M C Howard electronics surplus is going out of business
16:49 < Martyn> kanzure : That's the last electronics surplus store in Austin
16:50 < Martyn> No more places to go root through racks and racks of old chips, parts, and components
16:50 < kanzure> never heard of them
16:50 < Martyn> kanzure : Google 'em.
16:50 < Martyn> They are in the same fine tradition as Haltek and Wierd Stuff in San Francisco
16:50 < Martyn> I think that's the PROBLEM... 35 years they have been in the same place, and it's a place hackers should have known about
16:51 < Martyn> 9417 Neils Thomson Dr
16:51 < kanzure> hm they don't have their address on their website
16:51 < kanzure> aha
16:51 < Martyn> xp_prg : http://www.igotu.com/hackthebadge   www.linkedin.com/in/martinbogo
16:53 < xp_prg> what can I do with hack the badge that I can't do with a regular arduino?
16:54 < Martyn> xp_prg: we've been over this before.   The last debate we had on it reached the limits of my patience as I recall.
16:55 < xp_prg> I don't recall that ok
16:58 < QuantumG> looks like a nice board
17:00 < Martyn> It is!
17:00 < Martyn> quite fun, and I'm down to the last 8
17:00 < Martyn> 7 actually .. someone from NL bought one today
17:12 < KrisC> who paid to have christmas decorations flown to the ISS?
17:12 < QuantumG> my bet is on the Japanese
17:13 < KrisC> the Japanese astronaut does have the best hat
17:14 < QuantumG> proof
17:17 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/biohacker/ metabolic network debugger
17:20 < QuantumG> Nada Amin, MIT, Dan Wheeler, MIT, Jeremy Zucker, MIT .. it must be useless :)
17:21 < xp_prg> why does this use lisp and python?
17:21 < kanzure> because they are academics
17:21 < QuantumG> I think I just answered that question.
17:21 < kanzure> QuantumG: nah, not unless tom knight is on the list :p
17:22 < kanzure> although he doesn't recommend lisp much these days as it happens
17:22 < QuantumG> We implemented the network debugger on top of a logic-
17:22 < QuantumG> based truth maintenance system (LTMS)
17:23 < kanzure> hah :)
17:23 < QuantumG> ironically, I think this paper does do something useful
17:24 < QuantumG> it demonstrates a practical use for EcoCyc
17:28 < genehacker2> what? Austin only had/has one surplus electronics store that's going out of business?
17:28 < Martyn> yep
17:28 < Martyn> thats about it
17:28 < Martyn> Centex is gome
17:28 < Martyn> gone, and now MC is closing
17:28 < Martyn> leaving .. zero
17:29 < xp_prg> lisp is a function based language and so is lisp, not clear why you would choose to use lisp as it is the exact same paradigm of programming languages
17:29  * genehacker2 hopes the local surplus store down here has the parts he needs for his latest project
17:30 < QuantumG> people use lisp because they're bigots or they love the "reflection" available in the language.
17:30 < QuantumG> .. if you can call it a language.
17:30 < QuantumG> languages have syntax
17:30 < xp_prg> python does not have reflection?
17:31 < QuantumG> not really
17:31 < xp_prg> when you say reflection do you mean introspection?
17:31 < QuantumG> ya
17:32 < xp_prg> python has hasattr and is operators that allow for introspection just fine
17:32 < xp_prg> you can also use repr and __class_
17:32 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity
17:32 < QuantumG> blah, you can't walk code in python
17:32 < xp_prg> what does it lack in that way?
17:32 < xp_prg> walk code?
17:33 < QuantumG> with lisp you can "introspect" the expressions that make up a function
17:33 < xp_prg> hmm.... ya not sure if python can decompile code in that way
17:34 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure
17:34 < xp_prg> you can discover if a class has an attribute or function however
17:34 < xp_prg> not sure why that would be needed QuantumG, you want to get the actual code of a function for what purpose in runtime?
17:34 < QuantumG> you'd have to ask a lisp advocate
17:35 < xp_prg> it seems everyone is going python these days
17:35 < xp_prg> QuantumG do you know python?
17:35 < QuantumG> yes
17:35 < xp_prg> want to help me with something kind of non-trivial I have been wanting to do?
17:35 < QuantumG> and what "everyone" does is not a good way to choose a programming language )
17:36 < QuantumG> xp_prg is management material
17:36 < xp_prg> I am? :>
17:36 < kanzure> no 
17:36 < xp_prg> I am a developer :>
17:36 < kanzure> get the fuck out
17:37 -!- Foone2 [n=foone@adsl-065-005-235-122.sip.ard.bellsouth.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:40 < QuantumG> http://iolanguage.com/
17:41 < xp_prg> QuantumG you want to help me or not?
17:41 < QuantumG> no, fuck off
17:41 < QuantumG> I don't want to "help" you with any of your projects
17:41 < QuantumG> I thought I made that clear the last time you asked
17:41 < xp_prg> wow ok
17:41 < QuantumG> do your own work, christ
17:41 < Martyn> Tim, you really do try people's patience.   This isn't the first time.
17:41 < Martyn> It's a personality thing.
17:42 < kanzure> yes, listen to martyn, and then leave
17:42 < xp_prg> I am not easily offended so everyone take a pill, I have nothing to prove
17:42 < QuantumG> if you want people to help you with your projects, just tell people what you're doing, they'll offer if they're interested.
17:43 < kanzure> xp_prg: we don't care if you're offended. just leave and go away
17:43 < xp_prg> I don't want your help now, so don't worry about it
17:43 < kanzure> great then you can leave
17:43 < xp_prg> heh
17:44 < Martyn> that wasn't a joke.
17:44 < xp_prg> it is to me
17:44 < xp_prg> makes me laugh
17:44 < xp_prg> :>
17:45 < genehacker2> what color pills do you have
17:45 < genehacker2> I'll take the red pill
17:45 < xp_prg> white ones
17:45 -!- genehacker2 [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #hplusroadmap []
17:46 < QuantumG> >>>Augustine: "Relatively simple unguided artillery shells somehow demand literally thousands of test rounds, whereas a new intercontinental ballistic missile needs only a few handfuls of test flights to demonstrate its adequacy."
17:46 < QuantumG> >>How many test flights do you think Space Ship Two will have before their first revenue flights?
17:46 < QuantumG> >>I would guess closer to "handfuls" than "literally thousands".
17:46 < QuantumG> >Depends how effective it is at stalling the media while the rocket dev schedule slips ;)
17:46 < kanzure> heh
17:46 < Martyn> QuantumG : They published the test flight schedule ...
17:46 < Martyn> FAA has already approved the first four
17:47 < Martyn> I think they are in a race against Bezos' thing .. Blue whatever
17:48 < QuantumG> url?
17:48 -!- blueshift [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:50 < kanzure> hey blueshift
17:50 < kanzure> hm are you genehacker?
17:53 < QuantumG> Martyn:   They published the test flight schedule  <- got an url?
17:53 -!- blueshift is now known as genehacker
17:53 -!- genehacker is now known as genehackerAFK
18:02 < Martyn> QuantumG : I'm not an investor, sadly.
18:02 < Martyn> I think that Virgin Galactic is a -very- good investment
18:02 < Martyn> since they have more private flights into space on record than any other company
18:02 < QuantumG> oh, so by "published" you mean they didn't publish it?
18:02 < Martyn> I mean they published it to their investors.
18:02 < Martyn> I don't think they put it on their website .. but since they have to register the flights with the FAA, I assume it's in the public record
18:03 < genehackerAFK> the step from orbital to suborbital is a bit of a jump though
18:04 < Martyn> They previously published 4th quarter of '10 for the first testflight
18:04 < QuantumG> genehackerAFK: read this?  http://www.bristolspaceplanes.com/library/The_Aviation_Approach_to_Space_Transportation.pdf
18:04 < QuantumG> apparently there's a path there.
18:05 < QuantumG> no-one has walked it of course
18:06 < genehackerAFK> awesome
18:06 < genehackerAFK> now if we could only get a small orbital spaceplane...
18:07 < genehackerAFK> though isn't the spaceplane route to space fairly expensive on a per kg basis?
18:08 < QuantumG> the ideology at play here is fully reusable vehicles
18:08 < genehackerAFK> though I guess it's still way cheaper than using big rockets
18:08 < QuantumG> a 747 is pretty expensive, but you don't just use it once :)
18:08 < genehackerAFK> good enough for launching cubesats
18:09 < genehackerAFK> are all the rocket parts reusable and refuellable?
18:09 < QuantumG> but the fact is, no-one knows if it can be done or not.. there's a whole lot of risk.
18:10 < genehackerAFK> but the spaceplane route is easier to get man rated, now that's a pretty strong argument
18:11 < QuantumG> its non-destructive to test too
18:16 -!- Phreedom_ [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:17 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
18:19 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:29 < ybit> cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@tinyos.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/tinyos login
18:29 < ybit> cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@tinyos.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/tinyos co -P tinyos-2.x-contrib/ecosensory/
18:30 < kanzure> i have never been able to get anonymous cvs to work with sourceforge
18:32 < ybit> ..until now
18:34 < ybit> john said he would create a schematic and send it my way
18:34 < ybit> "That will show the flat flex connector, low power cut off FETs, muxes, analog switches
18:34 < ybit> used to make 12 channel analog sensor board that is not published yet, except for the
18:34 < ybit> TinyOS code I pointed you at before."
18:35 < ybit> said it will be ready after xmas
18:36 < kanzure> griessen?
18:36 < kanzure> my internet connection is slow, don't expect me to visit links today
18:44 < ybit> yeah, griessen
19:18  * ybit has to watch a movie tomorrow, luckily..
19:18 < ybit> i get to pick it :)
19:19 < ybit> in my mini quest for less boring, i found 'Science Ninja Team Gatchaman', just thought that was worth pointing out :P
19:20 < ybit> it comes down to battle for terra, moon, and monsters versus aliens
19:20 < ybit> will i watch any of it, probably not, but it will be more distracting and entertaining then another sports film about someone overcoming poverty or whatnot
19:26 < kanzure> ugh... http://singinst.org/challenge
20:18 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit ["leaving"]
20:47 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-20-86.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:53 -!- areyna3 [n=chatzill@75-1-75-31.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:57 < kanzure> hey areyna3 
20:59 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
21:20 < areyna3> what's up
21:50 < kanzure> not much
22:19 < ybit> hrm
22:19 < ybit>    
22:19 < ybit> 2010 Art Theme: Metropolis
22:19 < ybit> Tumult and change, churning cycles of invention and destruction - these forces generate the pulse of urban life. Great cities are organic, spontaneous, heterogeneous, and untidy hubs of social interaction. In 2010, we will inspect the daily course of city life and the future prospect of civilization.
22:20 < ybit> ^ burning man's theme this coming year
22:24 < genehackerAFK> I can't wait to see the destruction
22:29 < ybit> foresight 2010, the synergy of agi and molecular manufacturing.. strange
22:30 -!- areyna3 [n=chatzill@75-1-75-31.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:31 < ybit> apparently martyn is a ranger ath burning man
22:37 < ybit> first time to hear about this: http://www.google.com/mobile/goggles/
22:46 < ybit> http://singularityhub.com/2009/12/22/a-review-of-the-best-robots-of-2009/
22:46 < ybit> cooking robots, that's pretty sweet
22:47 < ybit> i'm giggling right now watching them prepare a dish
23:28 < ybit> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/drl/wiki/index.php/The_Distributed_Robotics_Garden
23:29 < ybit> the object recognition input data: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jieyunfu/
23:29 < ybit> they are looking at replacing or already have replaced the notebooks with pc104 chips 
23:30 < ybit> and a gps system for the plant pots 
23:31 < ybit> http://people.csail.mit.edu/nikolaus/drg/index.php/distributed-robotics-garden
23:32 < ybit> google scholar needs notifications
23:33  * ybit wants to know when "Building a Distributed Robot Garden" is released
23:36 < ybit> not available online yet -> "The Robot in the Garden Telerobotics and Telepistemology in the Age of the Internet"
23:36 < ybit> meh
23:37 < ybit> http://www.google.com/books?id=zHfdepm-VOUC
23:41 < ybit> http://www.easybloom.com/learn/overview.html :: "EasyBloom is a sensor that you can stuck into the earth close to a plant or where you would like to grow something. Various sensors then measure various parameters (temperature, light, humidity) that can be downloaded via USB after 24h. Recorded sensor data is then compared with the requirements of 5000+ plants on the EasyBloom website, which then tells you whether this spot is suitable for a particular 
23:47 < genehackerAFK> whoa
23:47 < randallagordon> heh, interesting
23:47 < genehackerAFK> ybit those nextage robots are amazing
23:47 < randallagordon> I'm actually getting read to make something similar to the EasyBloom for my hydroponics setup using a Teensy
23:48 < genehackerAFK> I wonder if they're actually inspecting the parts
23:48 < QuantumG> http://quantumg.net/watercooled.jpg   some SolidWorks eye candy for ya
23:48 < genehackerAFK> DO SOME FEM
23:48 < genehackerAFK> DO SOME FEM
23:49 < ybit> the mit csail robots: "The robot base (iCreate), arm and notebook are held together by a acrylic rack that can be created using a laser cutter. The necessary files (CorelDraw) are available here" .cdr :\
23:49 < genehackerAFK> something's not quite right with that nozzle
23:49 < ybit> randallagordon: are you now
23:49 < ybit> i'm certainly interested in creating one of these myself
23:50 < ybit> QuantumG: why solidworks again, i missed that conversation
23:50 < genehackerAFK> QuantumG you got the deluxe version with fluid dynamics software?
23:50 < QuantumG> nfi
23:50 < genehackerAFK> ???
23:50 < ybit> no fucking idea
23:51 < genehackerAFK> you got something called cosmoworks?
23:51 < QuantumG> ya
23:51 < genehackerAFK> damn
23:51 < randallagordon> I want to do realtime pH, TDS and temperature monitoring, eventually serve it up AJAX style all pretty like with an embedded webserver...at least that's what the ambition of the moment states
23:51 < genehackerAFK> http://www.solidworks.com/sw/products/simulation-software-design-analysis.htm
23:52 < QuantumG> I'm sure it's one of the 2000 features I haven't used yet
23:52 < genehackerAFK> I'd try putting a pressure force in that part to get started
23:53 < genehackerAFK> since you aren'
23:53 < genehackerAFK> t simulating something real rubbery or in high detail it shouldn't take forever
23:57 < genehackerAFK> to get you started with something practical I'll send you a test part you can play with