--- Day changed Mon Dec 28 2009 00:21 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:42 < ybit> why are they plans for berkeley's gantry machine not online? why couldn't they just be placed on a server somewhere already 00:42 < ybit> google chart api was nothing, just a matter of me not letting my mind wonder off 00:42 < katsmeow-afk> aliks, didn't someone do a pair of glasses with onscreen data display and such for that, like 10 yrs ago? 00:43 < ybit> did they now? 00:43 < katsmeow-afk> i think MIT or CMU or such place 00:43 < Aliks> katsmeow-afk, sounds good 00:43 < ybit> i remember watching a video where it would the person's face would be recognized and anything which was stored about him/her could be retrieved 00:43 < Aliks> BTW sorry if someone was talking earlier and I didnt respond, MIRC sometimes disconnects me and doesnt notify me lol 00:43 < Aliks> so I think people are just being quiet 00:43 < ybit> it was mit 00:44 < ybit> quassel should take care of that 00:44 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, didn't go anywhere, i think some aircraft oem tried it for 3D parts placements and rapid enventory JIT control 00:44 < ybit> i think the project has steadily grown, i certainly doubt it died 00:44 < katsmeow-afk> ybit, wher is it used/sold/developed? 00:44 < Aliks> yeah, I dont really need a glasses thing though.. I dont mind doing a small amount of data entry at the end of the dya 00:45 < ybit> http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/ katsmeow-afk 00:45 < katsmeow-afk> the glasses didn't do data entry, they werhe heads-up data display only 00:45 < ybit> http://www.media.mit.edu/Wearables/mithril/ 00:46 < ybit> specifically: http://www.media.mit.edu/Wearables/mithril/memory-glasses.html 00:46 < superkuh> I always liked the mithril's wiring. It was usb+i2c+power over cat5. 00:47 < katsmeow-afk> ybit, i had remembered it because i think it wold bre very handy to put them on and see outside the house/boat, as well as overlay radar data or underwater obstruction map data, as i looked around 00:48 < Aliks> lol 00:49 < randallagordon> mmm, HMD goodness. 00:50 < ybit> wulfdesign has a decent idea of making the austin meeting live 00:50 < ybit> kanzure, technologiclee3 00:50 * ybit pokes gnusha 00:50 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.media.mit.edu/Wearables/mithril/memory-glasses.html is dated 2003 , it's 6yrs old 00:50 < ybit> yep 00:51 < Aliks> and there's no commercial product yet??? 00:53 < randallagordon> There are finally a few choices for small, high-resolution LCDs that would be appropriate for high quality HMDs, but that's one of the major limiting factors for commercialization...portable computers with enough horsepower to do something useful would be another, also finally arriving... 00:53 < katsmeow-afk> ranks right up tehre with "no one wants this advanced usefull stuff" i keep saying 00:53 < randallagordon> The market at large thinks bluetooth headsets are dorky, good luck getting people to wear glasses around everywhere... 00:53 < katsmeow-afk> doesn't need to be so portable, in many cases wifi wold be enough to a stationary puter 00:54 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:54 < randallagordon> For geeks, absolutely...and you can get the tech necessary for several grand 00:54 < katsmeow-afk> uch 00:54 < katsmeow-afk> ouch 00:54 < randallagordon> But again, market at large...that's who you have to convince if you want to see the tech become a commodity, which is the prerequisite for low priced hardware 00:57 < Aliks> I dunno, bluetooth seems to be becoming accepted 00:58 < Aliks> I so hate waiting for DNS to propagate 00:59 < ybit> commercial products, see the sidebar here: http://web.media.mit.edu/~msung/ 00:59 < ybit> one of the guys working on this stuff died, p. singh 00:59 < Aliks> sucks 00:59 < ybit> http://web.media.mit.edu/~push/ 01:00 < Aliks> well I guess I will go waste an hour or so driving to walmart since they arent answering the phone... 01:00 < Aliks> and no doubt drive back without the printer ink they no doubt dont carry 01:00 < katsmeow-afk> Push died 01:01 < katsmeow-afk> somehow, several people associated with the open "common senses reasoning" projects over the years have killed themselves 01:01 < Aliks> bah 01:03 < Aliks> is that a conspiracy theory I hear? 01:03 < Aliks> afk for a bit 01:03 < katsmeow-afk> no, but it is common for a huge amount of noise to be intentionally introduced in open project data 01:04 < katsmeow-afk> it's depressing 01:04 < Aliks> hmm noise? 01:04 < randallagordon> ...it has taken 10 years for Bluetooth to gain mild accpetance...but, yes, eventually, HMDs will too. My bets are on contact lens displays taking the cake another 15 years out or so. 01:04 < ybit> sooner? 01:05 * ybit hopes 10 01:05 < Aliks> Bluetooth has been around for 10 years?? 01:05 < katsmeow-afk> i dl'd soem open db of associated words in the 90's and early 2000's, most of some data was along the lines of "somename hadsexwith something" 01:05 < Aliks> lol 01:05 < katsmeow-afk> or fly(trains, "after 10pm on xmas") 01:05 < Aliks> ... 01:06 < katsmeow-afk> or cows read shakespear 01:06 < katsmeow-afk> so time consuming to clean most of it, i deleted it 01:06 < Aliks> yeah 01:06 < katsmeow-afk> it was 100% unuseable raw 01:06 < Aliks> ok really leaving now... back soon i hope 01:06 < katsmeow-afk> i felt sorry for the people managing it, i'm sure they saw it as a slap in the face against progress 01:10 < ybit> http://www.biocas2009.org/index.htm needs to get with it publish papers from the conf 01:11 < ybit> babak parviz's group from washington uni. were supposed to be presenting a paper on contact lenses with built-in virtual graphics 01:12 < katsmeow-afk> contactlenses will prolly need tobe cleared as medical devices, while not glasses 01:16 < ybit> bedtime 01:16 * ybit waves gn 01:16 < katsmeow-afk> gnites ybit, stay warm 01:17 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28 < randallagordon> yeah, there will be hurdles for contacts 01:28 < randallagordon> I see I've missed ybit, but yeah, I'd say we'll see useful, wireless HMDs in the next couple years...but it is generally a good idea to double your timeline when dealing with the public... 01:30 < randallagordon> Slap a pair of these puppie along with some lenses into a headset and you've got a bitchin' steroscopic display: http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/12/kopin-crafts-worlds-smallest-vga-microdisplay-2k-x-2k-postage/ 01:31 < randallagordon> We're starting to see a lot of vital technologies fall into place that should bring us some truly immersive augmented reality apps within the next couple years, at least those of us geeky enough to put the parts together ourselves... 01:31 < randallagordon> HMDs + head tracking == the beginnings of something amazing 01:33 < katsmeow-afk> if only it wold be available 01:33 < randallagordon> If you're handy with a soldering iron, it is right now 01:33 < katsmeow-afk> a working hud on glasses? 01:33 < randallagordon> As soon as I get some spare cash, I intend to snag a couple of Kopin's LCDs and see what I can come up with 01:33 < katsmeow-afk> for under $500 ? 01:34 < randallagordon> ...the hard part is tracking down a way to get just two... 01:34 < randallagordon> for under $500 you can get oldschool used 640x480 HMDs 01:35 < randallagordon> But for optical combination, so you can step beyond VR and into AR, you're looking at a bit more ;) 01:35 < randallagordon> I found a supplier about a year and a half ago that had optical combination HMDs for about $2k...I think they were still VGA, though 01:36 < katsmeow-afk> a few words, a few lines, arrows, is all i was looking for 01:36 < randallagordon> ...haven't really looked at what's available since then 01:36 < randallagordon> But we're just now finally seeing the computing hardware to back it up and make it reasonable to work with 01:37 < randallagordon> lugging around 15lbs+ of gear and laptop that's got the CPU and GPU horsepower to pull off useful tasks is bad enough, then you need the battery power to get more than 15 minutes out of the rig :P 01:39 < katsmeow-afk> again, i was going to wireless it's data feed 01:39 < randallagordon> I've been amazed at what people are able to pull off with the current crop of Cortex A8/PowerVR 530 based mobile chipsets...I'm hoping we'll see some dual Cortex A9/PVR540 chipsets showing up Q3/4 next year...then the cat is out of the bag 01:39 < randallagordon> Still need a lot of gear to pick up the feed and display it 01:40 < katsmeow-afk> lot of gear cold be merely an arduino 01:41 < katsmeow-afk> Our products all draw minimum power, in most uses 200mW to 300mW at full on. The efficiency of this design allows our HMDs to operate on 4 AA batteries for well over 40 hours of continuous use. A whole weeks worth of work on one set of batteries. 01:42 < randallagordon> true 01:42 < randallagordon> seems to me that it would be severly crippled at that point 01:42 < randallagordon> useful for feedback of realtime data 01:42 < randallagordon> but not for true augmented reality, overlaying data onto what you see before you 01:43 < randallagordon> but at that point, I've got a mobile phone in my pocket that can do far more than an Arduino could... 01:43 * katsmeow-afk nods 01:43 < randallagordon> trying to track down a project...one sec 01:44 < katsmeow-afk> Virtual Viewer 3D VGA (640x480) with Earbuds - $499.00 01:44 < randallagordon> http://www.tinmith.net/ 01:45 < randallagordon> That's one of the most mature AR/wearable computing projects I'm aware of 01:45 < randallagordon> Some of their demo videos are jaw dropping 01:46 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, that's going to be super pricey and fragile 01:47 < randallagordon> Once we've got functional UWB wireless radios in our mobile devices, we'll be set 01:48 < katsmeow-afk> http://wearcomp.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_HMD_Products 01:51 < katsmeow-afk> I-glasses 230 NEW LOWER PRICE! Only $119.95 01:51 < katsmeow-afk> With it’s built in 480 mAH re-chargeable battery, 01:52 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.i-glassesstore.com/ 01:52 < randallagordon> That'd be sufficient for toying with an arduino 01:53 < randallagordon> There's a shield for generating composite video isn't there? 01:53 < katsmeow-afk> i don'tknow 01:53 < randallagordon> (I haven't toyed with them much...I've got a Teensy, that's as close as I've gotten to arduinos...) 01:54 < Utopiah> I don't want to sound sarcastic but since 2005 or so "wearcomp" ~= mobile phone :/ 01:54 < randallagordon> Pretty much 01:55 * katsmeow-afk nods 01:55 < randallagordon> Hence my interest in seeing OMAP4 based devices...enough power to do truly useful apps while mantaining useful battery life...we just need a UWB radio spec to talk to a headset and we're really ready to rock & roll 01:56 < randallagordon> ...but as I mentioned before, it has taken a decade for Bluetooth to catch on, and only really thanks to laws requiring hands free devices while driving...overall BT is a giant pain in the posterior to use, even for geeks... 01:56 < randallagordon> so I'm not too hopefuly for seeing a useful UWB spec any time soon 01:56 < randallagordon> er...hopeful even 01:58 < randallagordon> really, what is holding us back is battery tech 01:59 < katsmeow-afk> arg 01:59 < randallagordon> if we could store enough power, we'd have had this tech long ago 01:59 < katsmeow-afk> 40 hrs in a battery charge, and i still hear " we need better batteries" 01:59 < randallagordon> ...I'm *very* suspicious of that claim 02:00 < randallagordon> which headset was that spec quoted from? 02:00 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.i-glassesstore.com/ i think 02:01 < randallagordon> Liteye? 02:01 < randallagordon> oooh, they do have OC HMDs 02:01 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:02 < katsmeow-afk> 10hrs on http://www.myvu.com/ 02:02 < randallagordon> They appear to do defense contracting... 02:02 < randallagordon> So I'd guess those HMDs are north of $3k 02:03 < randallagordon> It isn't difficult to get 10+ hours...it is a matter of how much you're willing to lug around 02:03 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03 < randallagordon> granted, for your app, that wouldn't be a problem 02:03 < randallagordon> but in the context of "why isn't this mainstream", it is a very big issue 02:03 < randallagordon> I can run a Li-poly pack and get a week's worth of usage out of an HMD 02:04 < katsmeow-afk> well, 1/2 watt of power pull, and i saw some 10ah D nicads for $11 the other day, that's 24hrs 02:04 < randallagordon> But am I willing to lug around pounds of batteries everywhere? No. 02:04 < randallagordon> ewwww, nicads? :P 02:04 < katsmeow-afk> i saw them, just saying 02:04 < randallagordon> hehe, nicads get their rears kicked by nimh 02:05 < randallagordon> http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/ 02:05 < randallagordon> They've got a lot of loose cells and supplies for making your own packs 02:05 < katsmeow-afk> i wasn't arguing 02:05 < katsmeow-afk> just saying, old technology getting 24hrs already 02:06 < randallagordon> Oh, I know, I'm just poking fun 02:06 < randallagordon> I toy with RC electrics from time to time, nicads are mostly junk for power density concerns...they're great if you need to deliver a lot of power quickly, though 02:07 < randallagordon> You can get nearly double the power density with nimh vs nicad 02:07 < randallagordon> Slightly heavier, though, so that is a tradeoff 02:08 < randallagordon> generally going to get better power falloff too 02:08 -!- biohackernoob [i=4404d867@gateway/web/freenode/x-xdjxeypxequvldrf] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:09 < biohackernoob> hey kanzure you here? 02:09 < randallagordon> greetings biohackernoob 02:09 < biohackernoob> hi 02:09 < randallagordon> I haven't seen him chime in the last hour or so that I've been paying attention 02:10 < biohackernoob> oh ok 02:10 < randallagordon> looks like he was last active around 21:30 PST 02:10 < biohackernoob> dang 02:10 < biohackernoob> ill have to find someone else to answer my question 02:10 < randallagordon> holy crikey, they've got a 5Ah sub C cell now 02:11 < katsmeow-afk> wow 02:11 < biohackernoob> do u have any experience/knowledge of transformation and transfection of plant cells? 02:11 < katsmeow-afk> cost? 02:11 < randallagordon> ...I wish...I'm just starting my adventure with bio 02:11 < randallagordon> $5/cell 02:11 < biohackernoob> same, hence the name :P 02:12 < randallagordon> hehe, I see 02:12 * katsmeow-afk ponders putting them into the laptop,, with help of the dremel tool 02:12 < randallagordon> I'm doing well keeping my plants alive in my hydro setup for the time being 02:13 < randallagordon> they're still going to get slaughtered by decenit li-ion cells, katsmeow-afk 02:13 < randallagordon> remember, that one cell is only providing 1.2v 02:13 < katsmeow-afk> drat, i was thinking 3v 02:14 < randallagordon> nicad/nimh cells provide ~1.2 02:14 * katsmeow-afk nods 02:14 < randallagordon> li-ion's generally are 3.2ish as I recall 02:14 < katsmeow-afk> RS marketed a hicap D nicad for yrs that was 1.4v 02:14 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:14 < biohackernoob> also, does anyone know where i can buy pHK724 and pHK555 plasmids? 02:14 < katsmeow-afk> i bought a mess of those 02:14 < randallagordon> 1.2 is generally the "nominal" voltage...fresh off a charge they'll get up as high as 1.7 in some cases 02:15 < katsmeow-afk> these held 1.4 for a looooong time under load 02:15 < Aliks> I saw you guys were talkin about the HMDs while I was away... anyone know about something related... I was looking for an automatic-upload-to-internet video camera, especially wearable 02:15 < randallagordon> I made several 6-cell, series packs using the Elite 1500 2/3A cells for my RCs...they'd top off at 1.65ish and hold out to about 1.3 before a rapid falloff 02:16 < randallagordon> hrmmm...checked out Eye-fi? I seem to remember an announcement of a version that is video capable? 02:17 < randallagordon> and there are apps like Qik for some platforms 02:17 < randallagordon> iPhone and Symbian are supported, I believe 02:17 < Aliks> hmm 02:18 < randallagordon> and Bambuser 02:18 < randallagordon> it supports Android, I think 02:18 < katsmeow-afk> fenn : if still looking for cheap 12 inch digital calipers : http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-Pro-Grade-Digital-Stainless-Measuring/dp/B000EJUBBU/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_b 02:19 < Aliks> very nice 02:19 < Aliks> thanks randallagordon 02:19 < katsmeow-afk> you canget the 6 + 8 + 12 for $57 02:22 < randallagordon> Google just needs to hurry up and land a national whitespace band 4G network and call it good... ;) 02:24 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:24 < randallagordon> Damn those peers 02:24 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:24 < randallagordon> Always resetting people's connections... 02:25 < Aliks> grr this disconnection is annoying 02:32 < biohackernoob> where do i buy plasmids? 02:37 < biohackernoob> or better yet, where do YOU guys buy plasmids? 02:38 * katsmeow-afk never bought one, so isn't going to say 02:38 < randallagordon> I'm more of a bio noob than you are, so, yeah...never purchased any 02:38 < randallagordon> http://www.1centbp.com/ <-- lists services for sequencing... 02:40 * katsmeow-afk is more into data and ai and other nonsense than bio 02:41 < Aliks> gahh disconnected again? 02:42 < randallagordon> apparently you're still here? ;) 02:42 < katsmeow-afk> i still see you 02:43 < Aliks> ah ok 02:43 < Aliks> lol starting to get paranoid 02:43 < katsmeow-afk> you're using mirc, are you replying to the server's PING with the required PONG ? (note the all caps on both) 02:43 < Aliks> it seems to be 02:44 < Aliks> shrug 02:45 < randallagordon> have you tried HydraIRC? I've been digging it thus far... 02:45 < Aliks> I'll check it out 02:46 < katsmeow-afk> i beenusing mirc since 1995 02:46 < katsmeow-afk> or 96,, i forget 02:48 < biohackernoob> randallagordon: i dont understand the link you gave me, none of those sites have search functions for specific plasmids? :S 02:48 < Aliks> was watching some SKDB stuff on youtube 02:48 < Aliks> pretty cool stuff 02:52 < katsmeow-afk> Aliks, some isp will drop a connection if it is idle over 5 minutes, try typing this: //timer 0 300 /ctcp chanserv ping 02:52 < katsmeow-afk> that will ping chanserv every 5 minutes as a keep-alive 02:52 < katsmeow-afk> you can change the 300 to anything you like, but i wold not go under 120sec 02:52 < katsmeow-afk> they take a dim view of harrassing services 02:53 < Aliks> nice thanks 02:53 < Aliks> this Factor-E-Farm sounds very interesting 02:53 < Aliks> I've been all over high tech topics for years, and I havent heard of any of this 02:53 < Aliks> somebody needs to do some publicity 02:53 < katsmeow-afk> you can verify the timer sis set by typing: //timers 02:54 < randallagordon> biohackernoob, they're for submitting your own sequences...most of them have their own software available to use, I believe 02:55 < biohackernoob> :/ i just want to order pHK724 and pHK555 02:55 < randallagordon> Ah 02:55 < randallagordon> I'm no help there 02:56 < Aliks> DIYcar would be interesting... (random thought) Everyone bitches and moans about needing all kinds of equipment and electronics to work on your car (anything besides changing a tire) 02:56 < randallagordon> googling them, I take it you're aiming to make fluorescent e. coli? 02:56 < Aliks> Would be nice if a car was designed around easy maintainability with bare minimum equipment 02:56 < randallagordon> heh, only oldschool mechanics bitch about that 02:57 < biohackernoob> randallagordon: actually bioluminescent plants... 02:57 < randallagordon> I <3 my bluetooth OBD II diag dongle 02:57 < biohackernoob> but i cant find ANY info on how/where to order plasmids of any kind! 02:57 < randallagordon> very nice 02:57 < randallagordon> http://addgene.com may be useful? 03:00 < biohackernoob> well they have some lux plasmids.. but not the ones im looking for... 03:04 < randallagordon> lol... "These aren't the plasmids you're looking for." 03:04 < randallagordon> "Move along, move along." 03:04 * biohackernoob smacks face against desk 03:06 < randallagordon> sorry, couldn't resist ;) 03:17 * biohackernoob goes to sleep 03:17 -!- biohackernoob [i=4404d867@gateway/web/freenode/x-xdjxeypxequvldrf] has quit ["Page closed"] 03:26 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-236-54.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:35 -!- randallagordon [n=randalla@c-76-115-127-7.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:38 < kanzure> ybit: there's no internet connection in les' shop. that's why i'm not living there. 03:41 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:18 < Aliks> hum 04:18 < Aliks> interesting talk you did, kanzure 04:18 < Aliks> watched the youtube vid 04:29 -!- randallagordon [n=randalla@c-76-115-127-7.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:31 < Aliks> wb 04:37 < randallagordon> thanks 04:37 < randallagordon> finally got SplitCam and my Sony camcorder to play nice together... 04:37 < randallagordon> ...now if only I could get my camcorder and audio interface to play nice... 04:41 < Aliks> randallagordon, whats your area of specialty? 04:50 < randallagordon> software 04:51 < randallagordon> although lately I've been focusing mostly on graphics design...and I've got a good dose of hardware thrown in...I enjoy toying with uCs and FPGAs 04:51 * Aliks nods. 04:51 < Aliks> wow, random thing... http://www.alllaw.com/calculators/Childsupport/California/ scary 04:51 < Aliks> (I dont have kids just for the record) 04:52 < randallagordon> why does that URL make me think that I'll want to throw things after visiting it? 04:52 < Aliks> yeah I'm also software oriented... CS/bio 04:52 < Aliks> yeah I had a similar reaction 04:52 < Aliks> I was just curious about a what-if scenario 04:52 < randallagordon> aye 04:52 < Aliks> like, what-if I was making a decent amount of money after graduating from college, then some girl decided to say she was on the pill and wasnt because I am driving a mercedes.. 04:53 < randallagordon> glad I made it out of my divorce without kids 04:53 < Aliks> apparently 1 kid is about 20% of your income.. slightly less if you make lots and lots of money 04:53 < Aliks> 2 is about 35% 04:54 < Aliks> thats like... wow 04:54 < randallagordon> wow, indeed 04:55 < randallagordon> best hope you be makin' bank! ;) 04:55 < katsmeow-afk> so get *your* tubes tied! 04:55 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55 < randallagordon> bingo 04:56 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:56 < randallagordon> there's that damn peer again, resetting connections 04:56 < katsmeow-afk> Aliks, so get *your* tubes tied! 04:56 < Aliks> I'm thinking about it 04:56 < Aliks> lol 04:56 < Aliks> yeah, thinkin about it katsmeow-afk 04:57 < randallagordon> wooow, some of the best light painting I've seen in a while: http://www.pixelelement.com/amazing-light-painting-photography/ 04:57 < Aliks> but I dunno... there's a few small downsides to that 04:57 < Aliks> definitely not as big of a downside as losing 35% of income though 04:57 < katsmeow-afk> it's the only way to take responsibility and ensure you won't be blamed 04:57 < katsmeow-afk> it's reversable 04:57 < Aliks> yes 04:57 < Aliks> well 04:57 < Aliks> lol 04:57 < Aliks> reversable in principle... success is a little less than what I'd call safe 04:57 < Aliks> and even "success" means a reduction 04:58 < Aliks> still not back where you were usually 04:58 < Aliks> but then, I might not want kids anyway so.. 04:58 < Aliks> shrug 04:59 < katsmeow-afk> 0% of me and my sisters are having kids, but one did adopt from China 04:59 < Aliks> wow, Texas child support laws are sooo much more favorable 04:59 < Aliks> about 10% of California amounts 05:01 < randallagordon> Wooooo, go Texas! ;) 05:02 < Aliks> Nevada is similar 05:02 < Aliks> I wonder if CA just rapes the men for some reason 05:02 < randallagordon> Could always go for mass chemical castratian via public water supplies... ;) (very much being sarcastic) 05:02 < Aliks> lol 05:03 < randallagordon> heh, well CA verus Texas and Nevada are about as Apples to Oranges as you can get ;) 05:03 < Aliks> ya 05:03 < randallagordon> Most Democratic state verus most Republican...hmmmmmm, hehe 05:04 < Aliks> yeah, I tend to prefer blue states in general but the red ones do have advantages 05:04 < Aliks> I think it depends on what economic strata you're in within the state 05:04 < Aliks> red state + low strata = bad 05:04 < randallagordon> NV ftw 05:04 < Aliks> blue state + high strata = bad 05:05 < Aliks> yeah until I get out of this state my new policy is not to screw anyone that doesnt have something to lose 05:05 < Aliks> like, has their own education etc on the line if they had a kid 05:06 < Aliks> no wonder there are so many homosexuals in this state... it's the only affordable orientation here 05:06 < randallagordon> Probably a good plan 05:06 < Aliks> lol 05:06 < randallagordon> lol 05:09 < Aliks> sleeptime 05:10 * Aliks slumps over and you hear a soft "click". 05:10 < randallagordon> likewise 05:10 < randallagordon> sleep well 05:10 < Aliks> you too 05:31 -!- marainein_ [n=marainei@220.253-236-54.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:35 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-236-54.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35 -!- marainein_ [n=marainei@220.253-236-54.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:35 -!- jm [n=j@p57B9D566.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:36 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-236-54.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:21 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:22 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22 < technologiclee3> intresting blog http://metamodern.com 06:26 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-236-54.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:27 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:51 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:03 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:04 < kanzure> genehackerAFK: when are you back in austin? 08:06 < kanzure> Aliks: re: your auto-emailer, you should read this: http://groups.google.com/group/diytranshumanist/msg/868fb2a20a135fb9?hl=en 08:22 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32 -!- jm [n=j@p57B9D566.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:36 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin 08:36 < kanzure> hm someone just contacted me who is "trying to reconstruct technological civilization on a small farm" 08:37 < kanzure> can we have some bets as to whether or not this is someone from factor e farm? 08:53 < technologiclee3> i like the email thing - they would call it factory e farm - all farms kind of do that really 08:56 -!- Iocus [n=opera@24.42.127.171] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:59 < kanzure> hello Iocus 09:00 < kanzure> hm here's another weird query that leads to my site: "candy that looks like mitochondria" 09:05 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:08 < kanzure> hello eleitl 09:08 < kanzure> i have decided that nanorex can't code worth shit 09:11 < eleitl> hi kanzure. 09:11 < eleitl> nanorex is nanoengineer? 09:12 < eleitl> I don't know who wrote the code. 09:14 < eleitl> sf lists nanorex and nsathaye as project founders. I presume very few guys wrote the code. I've never looked at it myself. 09:15 -!- Spance3000 [n=Foonever@manxo.me] has left #hplusroadmap [] 09:15 < technologiclee3> yes - but when it runis it does so beautifly - just take the best parts nd make something better 09:16 < eleitl> I presume the issue is about how much of nanoengineer-1 is of value to skdb. Apparently, not so much. 09:17 < technologiclee3> hahahha - show me a better modeling tool and i will use it 09:17 < eleitl> that is not the question, technologiclee3. 09:18 < eleitl> the background is reusing pieces of nanoengineer-1 in skdb. 09:18 < technologiclee3> ya - thats the way to go 09:19 < eleitl> what do you use nanoengineer-1 for, technologiclee3? 09:20 < technologiclee3> NE1 uses QuteMolX - Open Babel - Gromacs - GNU plot - POV -RAY - Mega Pov -- NE1 is just glue to hold these packages together 09:20 < technologiclee3> so far it has taught me a good deal about the command line ;) 09:21 < technologiclee3> when i had access to Xp boxes i made training tutorial vids - to help get the word put (and maybe a job) 09:21 < eleitl> are you trying to do molecular design? 09:21 < eleitl> molecular modelling jobs are a bit rare. 09:21 < technologiclee3> yes - but it has taken a detour into software design 09:22 < eleitl> it's mostly pharma, and they do virtual screening, which is very different. 09:22 < technologiclee3> when they become more numerous i will have my foundatons laid 09:22 < kanzure> nanoengineer1 has some interesting ideas though. they have a class for a nanotube that i can reuse. 09:23 < technologiclee3> alright! 09:23 < eleitl> I picked chemistry in 1988 in order to do nanotechnology. Now it's 2010, and nano is still stalled. 09:24 < technologiclee3> it's about the software and the tools to make the designs - alot of work has been done to get the point to where we can do these things 09:24 < eleitl> To call this disappointing is a massive understatement. 09:25 < technologiclee3> i think it has reached critical mass - and yes over the past 10 years i thought they would have more to show for it too 09:26 < kanzure> i really enjoyed this: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7B44F742F8C9A48C it's a playlist showing cnc machines 09:26 < eleitl> I see zero momentum for nano in the mainstream. Even MNT has shrunk massively since when Nanosystems was new. 09:27 < technologiclee3> yes, but we are not the mainstream, this is what i do 09:27 < eleitl> the hexapod would work great on microscale 09:28 < technologiclee3> yes - like a stewart platform 09:28 < kanzure> eleitl: have you seen the hextatic? 09:28 < kanzure> eleitl: http://fennetic.net/bfi/hextatic.jpg 09:28 < eleitl> The problem with being not the mainstream is that you're completely marginalized. 09:29 < eleitl> I've seen precursors of the hextatic design. They've been around for a while. 09:29 < kanzure> apparently someone at NIST made a stewart platform once, but i've never met anyone who has one in operation 09:30 < eleitl> There is not much point for that in the macroscale, probably. 09:30 < technologiclee3> thats not new for me - i am often right and wait for the rest to catch up - i'm not going to wait in the meantime - which brings me here after 3hrs sleep and loving it 09:30 < kanzure> it's more for portability and desktop cnc machining 09:30 < eleitl> rock on, technologiclee3. 09:31 < eleitl> me, I need a lot more than 3 h, and also a source of income to pay the bills. 09:31 < technologiclee3> eleitl: that design looks like on from the best of robots 2009 - it can do some real work 09:31 < kanzure> how much of an income do you need eugen? 09:31 < genehackerAFK> nano hex platforms? 09:31 < genehackerAFK> err micro hex platforms 09:31 < kanzure> desktop size isn't "micro" 09:31 < genehackerAFK> what do you use for actuators? 09:31 < kanzure> ask fenn 09:31 < genehackerAFK> oops 09:32 < eleitl> at nanoscale you can use telescoping buckys, electrostatically actuated. 09:32 < genehackerAFK> what about at microscale 09:32 < eleitl> this looks hydraulic to me 09:33 < technologiclee3> yes - we were thinking that - i'll get a pic... 09:33 < eleitl> microscale you could use linear motors 09:33 < genehackerAFK> how do you make it? 09:33 < eleitl> what, the microscale Stewart? 09:33 < genehackerAFK> yeah 09:33 < genehackerAFK> or the nanoscale one 09:33 < genehackerAFK> I guess you could use self assembly 09:33 < eleitl> depending on the bootstrap route 09:34 < eleitl> yes, a mix of bottom-up autoassembly and top-down. 09:34 < eleitl> would you consider a 1 mm Stewart macro or micro? 09:35 < genehackerAFK> well it's on a macroscale size scale 09:35 < kanzure> 1mm diameter or what 09:35 < kanzure> or 1mm feature size 09:35 < eleitl> it still has ~um sized components, and probably operates on ~nm scale. 09:35 < genehackerAFK> AFK 09:35 < technologiclee3> http://ngineers.ning.com/forum/topics/animation-of-a-linear-servo?xg_source=activity 09:35 < genehackerAFK> look up size scales 09:36 < eleitl> did you render this, technologiclee3? 09:37 < technologiclee3> not this is Tom Moore - i saw his blog post in my nano searching and ended up getting NE-1 09:37 < kanzure> crap now i forgot what i'm doing right now 09:37 < eleitl> work first, kanzure. 09:37 < kanzure> wtf was i working on 09:37 < technologiclee3> as far as i know there are only a handful of people to ever use NE-1 09:37 < kanzure> hm 09:38 < technologiclee3> naotube class 09:38 < eleitl> I've played with it a few years ago. I don't see much point in in machina games, it's the bootstrap that is hard. 09:38 < kanzure> oh i guess skdb documentation first, then nanotube class crap 09:38 < kanzure> eleitl: i can't convince lee that seeing pretty pictures of nanotech isn't the same thing as bootstrapping it :) 09:38 < eleitl> good luck with that, kanzure. 09:39 < kanzure> a lot of documentation tools (like restructuredtext) want you to learn a new formatting language 09:39 < technologiclee3> ahhh - it's not about the pictures - it's about design validation 09:39 < eleitl> if you have to do computational work, it would be mapping the space of anabolic/catabolic machine-phase tooltip reactions. 09:39 < kanzure> papers please 09:39 < technologiclee3> some one in here said ' whats the point of designing things you can not build' 09:40 < technologiclee3> that can be done in autocad as well 09:40 < eleitl> at the same time, you will need to validate the computational work empirically 09:40 < technologiclee3> the point is to know what capabilites you have and design things you can build - bootstapping 09:40 < kanzure> i haven't read any papers on machine-phase tool tip reactions, and i don't have any. any suggestions 09:40 < eleitl> that is a basically a lot of tedious lab work with functionalized proximal probe. 09:40 < technologiclee3> i think we are all on the pame page but have different backgrounds 09:40 < eleitl> moment, kanzure. coming. 09:41 < technologiclee3> i do not know that NE-1 has ever been disproven - and it has been used to model things that agree well with reality 09:42 < eleitl> http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf 09:42 < kanzure> thanks 09:42 < eleitl> technologiclee3, all known forcefields have limits. The problem is not the accuracy, the problem is bootstrap. 09:43 < eleitl> kanzure, this is very much like rapid prototyping 09:43 < technologiclee3> i've seen the tool tip papers - i will bring them here when i find them - again 09:44 < eleitl> there's a continuum between ink-dip nanolitho and true machine phase. In situ polymerisation of monomers is pretty much machine-phase. 09:44 -!- RTSAFA [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:44 < technologiclee3> yes thats the one of them - one of the best 09:44 -!- RTSAFA is now known as Trooem 09:44 < eleitl> Get a cumulene strand into a bucky lumen of a functionalized tooltip, and we're talking. 09:45 < eleitl> design an enzyme which can secrete an infinite cumulene strand, and we're talking^2 09:46 < eleitl> fluorine-terminated bucky should prevent self-attachement. HOPG would be a good substrate. 09:46 < technologiclee3> at this point - i think one accesible way to boot strap it through dan origami - it is givid subnanometer precision and self assembly 09:46 < eleitl> the advantage is that this tool is continuous-operation. No need for regeneration cycles. 09:47 < eleitl> DNA orgigami is neat. I did not think it would be that easy. 09:48 < technologiclee3> i don't know about 'easy' - but accesible at this point without high vacum and class 10 clean room 09:48 < kanzure> http://drugdiscoveryathome.com/ 09:48 < kanzure> http://hydrogenathome.org/ 09:48 < eleitl> I did not think that DNA would be rich enough for 2D patterning. I expected it would take proteins. 09:49 < kanzure> eleitl: the dna origami people want to use it to put nano-scale electronics equipment in particular places. did you read the rothemund transcript i typed up? 09:49 < kanzure> eleitl: the transcript: http://designfiles.org/lab/2009-09-15-rothemund-utexas.html 09:49 < eleitl> I did not read it. The idea is as old as the hills. The difference is actually doing it. 09:49 < kanzure> okay 09:49 < kanzure> there wasn't anything new in the talk' 09:50 < eleitl> thanks for the transcript. reading it. 09:52 < kanzure> google is giving me ads for "affordable cryonics" with a guy named "ruddi hoffman" 09:53 < eleitl> Rudi is good. 09:53 < kanzure> "certified financial planner" huh 09:53 < eleitl> Inasmuch you currently get good value for your cryonics contract is arguable however. 09:53 < eleitl> Things have gone to shit lately. 09:54 < kanzure> the student price at alcor is $200/year last i heard 09:54 < Trooem> there is a student price? wow hahaha 09:54 < eleitl> Alcor badly needs fixing. Nobody so far has been able. 09:55 < kanzure> what's wrong? i haven't heard anything 09:55 < eleitl> Cryonics is in cargo cult/snake oil mode since around 2000 or so. 09:55 < eleitl> It is getting bad and worse all the time. 09:57 < Trooem> the only answer: private cryonics. ever wandered if alcor is using the truly latest, most expensive avalible stuff? doubt it aye.. 09:57 < Trooem> it's for individual pricing so.. 09:58 < Trooem> there could be something better and more guaranteed out there 09:58 < Trooem> people ought to hire cryonists and ask them 09:58 < eleitl> If you plan your expiration and have a few megabucks to spare, it would work. 09:58 < Trooem> yeah i'm guessing that... 09:59 < eleitl> you have to hire the very best people, and they're not cheap. 09:59 < eleitl> Since they're not doing cryonics, but R&D. 09:59 < Trooem> whats R&D? 09:59 < kanzure> research and development 09:59 < Trooem> oh 10:00 < Trooem> yeah.. i guess only way is to threaten them mwa hahahaha. 10:00 < Trooem> or have the money :) 10:00 < eleitl> Darwin has been MIA for the last 3-5 months. 10:00 < eleitl> Nobody knows where he is. 10:00 < kanzure> wyho? 10:01 < eleitl> After he went back to US he disappeared without a trace. Nobody can find him. I hope he's not dead. 10:01 < kanzure> another missing person is "nathan cravens" in the UK as of a few weeks ago (he's into open manufacturing) 10:01 < kanzure> if you have some UK people maybe they can help 10:02 < kanzure> if you know where darwin went, and have his full name, i might know some people in the area 10:03 < eleitl> he's probably just taking his vacation from cryonics. I hope, not a permanent one. 10:03 < eleitl> the experiences in UK and Europe in general wasn't too hot 10:11 < eleitl> wow is my computer crap. 10:12 < kanzure> eleitl: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/analysis.20091227 10:12 < kanzure> eleitl: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/graphs/eugen_leitl.png (data is missing from yours i think) 10:13 < eleitl> is that a trend, or what. 10:14 < kanzure> it's an accumulative look at how many times i've interacted with you over the internet in late 2009 10:14 < kanzure> it's really sketchy. for some people i have good data back to 2003, for others (you) i haven't imported the data back to 2007 when i met you 10:15 < kanzure> here's what someone else might look like: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/graphs/eric_katerman.png 10:16 < eleitl> I think I've mostly disappeared for the last 2.5 years, or so. 10:16 < eleitl> Kids will do that to you. Notice Amara has gone completely. 10:24 < eleitl> how well do you know Todd, kanzure? 10:29 < eleitl> I've looked at his flickr stream for first time in years, and there's no way he's getting shit done 10:54 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [] 10:59 < technologiclee3> how brain encodes memories http://www.physorg.com/news180780161.html 11:04 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:12 < technologiclee3> memory stored in brain tissue http://www.physorg.com/news180848772.html 11:15 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:15 < eleitl> damn, no paper out yet. 11:17 -!- rmadams [n=Adium@96.241.54.151] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:21 < kanzure> how weird. http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-12-28-kapchist.png 11:22 < kanzure> eleitl: i don't know him at all. he just keeps on showing up when ever i speak at a conference 11:22 < kanzure> and he shows up in weird email chains that i get (cc spam) that are completely unrelated 11:22 < kanzure> for instance i first met him at biobarcamp 2008, then in early 2009 i met him because he was funding an afghanistan fablab 11:22 < kanzure> hey rmadams 11:23 < rmadams> hey kanzure 11:23 < eleitl> however large his candle, he's burning them on too many ends. 11:23 < eleitl> apparently having fun however. little wrong with that, if that's what you want. 11:32 -!- DrH [n=chatzill@c91531d7.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:32 < rmadams> kanzure: question- from your H+ 2009 talk, you mentioned a hacked two-scanner lasercutter. Do you have a URL for it? 11:35 < kanzure> hey DrH 11:35 < kanzure> diybio on NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121954328 11:35 < kanzure> rmadams: this is all i know about. imajilon laser http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2258/2210335514_619902c08b.jpg 11:36 < kanzure> fenn might know some more 11:36 < DrH> hi 11:36 < rmadams> kanzure: thanks1 11:37 < rmadams> kanzure: thanks also for the mention (and picture) of the fabbed belt-buckle that I worked on- totally cool! 11:37 -!- DrH [n=chatzill@c91531d7.virtua.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 11:37 -!- jm [n=j@p57B9D566.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:38 < kanzure> rmadams: hope you liked the talk :) 11:38 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c91531d7.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:38 < rmadams> kanzure: fantastic! Really really interesting. 11:38 < kanzure> hey transplexity 11:38 < kanzure> daniel s. h.? 11:39 < kanzure> rmadams: i'm gearing up to start some builds. i'm thinking of doing a cnc machine in a cubespawn cube. 11:39 < rmadams> kanzure: lots of cool stuff of that sort going on. cathal garvey and I have been designing and developing a range of rapid-fabrication bio lab equipment, gel boxes, centrifuge, etc. that can all be printed on a RepRap or similar 11:39 < kanzure> yeah but cathal only works in meshes 11:39 < transplexity> yes, I just changed the nick. First time around here. Thanks. 11:40 < transplexity> So what's going on around here? 11:40 < rmadams> the open SCAD stuff can generate CSG, too, I think- need a slightly differnt compiler, of course. :-) 11:40 < kanzure> there is no way (yet) to recover anything useful from openscad 11:40 < kanzure> why not just work in an actual CAD environment? 11:40 < technologiclee3> about EMC - if your beyond hard in Ubuntu - its a nogo - Note: Do Not upgrade Ubuntu from 6.06 to 8.04 or upgrade from 8.04 to 8.10. The precompiled versions of EMC2 are only compatible with the Ubuntu version they were compiled with. Upgrading will remove the EMC packages and make your system unable to run EMC. 11:40 < eleitl> you want to be in Scottsdale, AZ, transplexity. Bay Area is also more or less represented. 11:41 < kanzure> eleitl: you mean trooem 11:41 < eleitl> Cryo in Germany is doing badly. Too few people on too bad duty cycle. 11:41 < rmadams> Dunno- you have to ask Cathal- I assume that he likes the pure programability. 11:41 < kanzure> rmadams: i really really suggest/recommend HeeksCAD. please stop making meshes 11:41 < kanzure> catha is a guy? 11:41 < kanzure> *cathal 11:41 < kanzure> huh. 11:41 < rmadams> Yep. 11:41 < transplexity> I see... 11:41 < technologiclee3> whatever drives the CNC machine cn be dedicated tho 11:41 < rmadams> Cathal is an Irish male name 11:41 < kanzure> i didn't know 11:41 < eleitl> trooem, then. 11:42 < kanzure> technologiclee3: i'll take a look at it when the time comes. it sounds like i just need to recompile the emc software 11:42 < kanzure> rmadams: so, the advantage of CAD models like CSG or brep is that you can convert them to meshes if you want 11:42 < kanzure> but you can't do it the other way around (mesh->CSG or brep) 11:42 < kanzure> povray and openscad both have promised that one day in the future there will be a parser that generates, say, an IGES file 11:42 < kanzure> oh well 11:42 < transplexity> A stupid question: do I need to manually annotate all information, or is there some kind of chat auto-saving? 11:42 < kanzure> i'm not going to convince you in one sitting 11:43 < kanzure> transplexity: are you in chatzilla? there should be an "auto logging" checkbox somewhere hidden in the menus 11:43 < eleitl> how real is the whole fabbing scene? is this a flash in the pan? I can't tell. 11:43 < kanzure> transplexity: if you want previous logs, see here: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplusroadmap.log.tar.gz 11:43 < kanzure> eleitl: there's a few hundred hackerspaces, and make magazine has a wide distribution (but make magazine sucks) 11:43 < transplexity> Yeah, I'll check it 11:44 < ybit> 10:29 < eleitl> I've looked at his flickr stream for first time in years, and there's no way he's getting shit done 11:44 < eleitl> few 100? wow, this is impressive. 11:44 < ybit> huffman? 11:44 < kanzure> ybit: yes 11:44 < kanzure> eleitl: yeah, see a list: http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces 11:44 < ybit> ah, yes 11:44 < kanzure> eleitl: i think chaos computer clubken in your area is one of them 11:45 < eleitl> there's a fab space in munich by ccc I know of 11:45 < transplexity> who's ybit 11:45 < kanzure> eleitl: yep, that's one of them 11:45 < transplexity> Jee, this takes a while to get used to. 11:45 < eleitl> unfortunately, I don't have time to hang out with ccc folks anymore 11:46 < kanzure> transplexity: once you get used to it, we can upgrade you to the server so you don't ever log out when your computer goes off 11:46 < ybit> i saw the mention of afghanistan and knew then 11:46 < genehackerAFK> enzyme design is a bit far off 11:46 < transplexity> nice... small steps, please :-) 11:46 < kanzure> genehackerAFK: have you seen the molecular pharmaceutical design videos on the server? 11:47 < ybit> transplexity: heath matlock, who are you? http://google.com/profiles/heathmatlock http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Heath_Matlock 11:47 < eleitl> de novo design is difficult. optimizing or changing substrate specifity less so. 11:47 < kanzure> yep 11:47 < kanzure> spot on 11:47 < kanzure> sometimes you can use bioinformatics to help figure out possible starting points 11:47 < kanzure> i'm a big fan of large libraries and selection experiments 11:48 < genehackerAFK> oh rmadams you work with cathal? 11:49 < transplexity> oh, hi heath 11:49 < rmadams> kanzure: I will have to give heeksCAD a try- looks interesting! 11:49 < rmadams> I like the idea of all CSG models. 11:49 < genehackerAFK> have you tested that centrifuge to make sure it's safe and doesn't turn into shrapnel? 11:49 < kanzure> rmadams: good, good :) 11:49 < rmadams> genehackerAFK: Cathal and I are working on parts of a large project 11:49 < kanzure> rmadams: yeah i prefer solid geometry models for skdb's purpose 11:50 < genehackerAFK> you are using meshes rmadams? 11:50 < genehackerAFK> what cad program are you using? 11:50 < kanzure> my guess is sketchup 11:50 < kanzure> which is not cad 11:50 < rmadams> genehackerAFK: i am not testing it until I have a containment vessel. I wouldn't do that even with a commercial centrifuge 11:50 < eleitl> can you render your stuff into a voxel representation easily? 11:50 < kanzure> eleitl: what do you consider to be "voxel"? 11:50 < rmadams> kanzure: blender, actually 11:51 < eleitl> volume element. 3d array of integers. 11:51 < kanzure> rmadams: ok. sorry 11:51 < rmadams> I have yet to find a good, open CAD program 11:51 < genehackerAFK> try using a steel bowl or something 11:51 < kanzure> eleitl: yes 11:51 < rmadams> kanzure: np 11:51 < rmadams> :-) 11:51 < genehackerAFK> why would you want to do voxels? 11:51 < kanzure> rmadams: heekscad is it, or at least where most of the development is happening 11:51 < rmadams> If heeksCAD can stand up and be relatively stable, it looks great 11:51 < eleitl> because if you want to visualize and manipulate billions of units of information in realtime it's the only thing. 11:52 < genehackerAFK> what sort of billions of units of information? 11:52 < kanzure> eleitl: i've been running an skdb visualization tool in the background since yesterday (forgot to close it), here's a screenshot: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-12-28-skdb-meh.png 11:52 < eleitl> volumes, surfaces, empty spaces. 11:52 < genehackerAFK> with voxels you fill up the whole voulme 11:52 < rmadams> genehackerAFK: yeah, I have a steel pot that I am going to use. For my part, I have been working on supply electronics and a drive motor, one that is not a dremmel. :-) 11:53 < genehackerAFK> oh nice 11:53 < eleitl> that's nice, kanzure. can you plug this into a rapid prototyper? 11:53 < rmadams> genehackerAFK: I have an alternate rotor design, which is more conventional, micrtofuge-like 11:53 < kanzure> eleitl: yep. it can either spit out individual legos or the entire model all at once (as one chunk of plastic) 11:53 < eleitl> rmadams: how many gees? 11:53 < genehackerAFK> with voxels don't you specify the whole volume? 11:54 < kanzure> genehackerAFK: voxel models are like.. bitmaps in 3D 11:54 < genehackerAFK> isn't that a bit big information wise? 11:54 < kanzure> yes 11:54 < eleitl> computers are fast 11:54 < genehackerAFK> much better to use solid models 11:54 < kanzure> always use solid 11:54 < eleitl> how do you render solid models? 11:54 < kanzure> convert to whatever you need later 11:54 < kanzure> eleitl: opengl 11:54 < rmadams> genehackerAFK: I spent a lot of years using commercial lab equipment, so that is what I am used to- must of my designs are not as radical as Cathals, but are probably more familar to working molecular biologists. 11:54 < kanzure> we've abstracted that under the hood with opencascade 11:54 < eleitl> try rendering a tomography data set with opengl. 11:55 < kanzure> http://opencascade.org/ 11:55 < kanzure> well yeah 11:55 < kanzure> but this isn't a full body scan or something 11:55 < eleitl> opengl is not meant for certain things. 11:55 < kanzure> opengl would have to use textures on a few thousand rectangles, not a big deal 11:55 < kanzure> there's also VTK 11:55 < kanzure> but i think VTK sometimes uses opengl :) 11:55 < eleitl> imagine rendering a billion atoms with OpenGL. 11:55 < kanzure> why would you want to do that anyway 11:56 < eleitl> let's say you want to drag a piece of volume by 3d bitblit. 11:56 < kanzure> i think you can do a billion objects per sec in opengl btw 11:56 < kanzure> i've seen people pulling a few trillion objects/triangles off.. 11:56 < kanzure> but i'm not a graphics card nut, so don't listen to me. bkero might know 11:56 < eleitl> on a vanilla system, in raltime? 11:56 < eleitl> I don't think so. 11:56 < kanzure> hm 11:57 < kanzure> if you wanted to copy and paste a billion atoms, i think you might not want to visualize all billion of them at once. maybe a 1/10th view or something 11:57 < kanzure> i mean this seems like a UI issue, not a graphics issue 11:57 < eleitl> try dragging around a virus capsid in VMD. 11:57 < kanzure> when you're working with numbers that big 11:57 < kanzure> but i think the approach is all wrong if you find that you have to drag that virus object around manually.. 11:57 < eleitl> These are not big datasets. 11:58 < eleitl> A virus is not large if you want to visualize a few cubic microns. 11:58 < kanzure> sure 11:58 < eleitl> my main points is that voxels scale, while everything else doesn't. 11:59 < kanzure> i see. so you would be okay with voxels that aren't 1-to-1 with whatever is being modeled 12:00 < eleitl> sure, just that you can visualize the volume roughly. 12:00 < eleitl> instead of rendering atoms as spheres you can render voxels as occupied by a type or empty. 12:01 < transplexity> Sorry, I forgot to answer, heath: I'm Daniel, and I'm new to DIYbio. 12:02 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 39 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 39 normal] 12:04 < genehackerAFK> so do we need to models atoms yet? 12:04 < eleitl> not yet, but eventually you'll want to 12:05 < kanzure> genehackerAFK: i've been looking at the nanoengineer1 (nanoCAD) source code for a few days 12:05 < eleitl> you can build a system today that can handle both gracefully. 12:05 < kanzure> and have some ideas for integrating it, without requiring everything be made up of atoms 12:05 < kanzure> yep 12:05 < genehackerAFK> can we work with atoms practically? 12:05 < kanzure> AFM tool tips 12:05 < eleitl> chemistry, too 12:05 < genehackerAFK> good point 12:05 < kanzure> chemistry if you don't need to know exact locations i think(?) 12:05 < kanzure> i guess there's some ways to make functionalized surfaces 12:05 < eleitl> you can combine both, of course 12:05 < genehackerAFK> you still need a good way to make the tooltips... 12:06 < eleitl> chemistry allows you to do massively parallel operations in volumes and surfaces 12:06 -!- genehackerAFK is now known as genehacker 12:06 < eleitl> machine-phase/proximal probe is purely sequential, or at least nead a large array to parallelize 12:06 < genehacker> anyway it's possible to convert solids to voxel 12:07 < kanzure> he knows :) 12:08 < genehacker> now I wonder what a file format for a matter compiler would look like 12:09 < kanzure> i think that's what we're making. 12:09 < genehacker> since you can't specify the location of all the atoms practically 12:09 < kanzure> you could, but i don't think that's necessary 12:09 < kanzure> you could if you worked at it hard enough i mean 12:10 < genehacker> you might specify block designs and generalized block locations 12:10 < ybit> who has access to http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089%2F15204550152475590 12:11 < ybit> "Somatic Cell Cloning without Micromanipulators" 12:11 < genehacker> perhaps taking ques from cell differentiation 12:11 < genehacker> oh I think I have that paper 12:11 < kanzure> eleitl: how far are you from stockholm? 12:11 < genehacker> let me see here 12:13 < eleitl> stockholm? damn far. 12:14 < eleitl> matter compilers, there's internal representation, and how to build things. Both are not necessarily related. 12:15 < kanzure> our idea with skdb is that the internal representation should be how to build things 12:15 < kanzure> so that's what's contained in the data 12:15 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml 12:15 < kanzure> at the bottom you see the tool-related dependencies for making a lego 12:15 < kanzure> and in the screw package, there's dependencies for cold rolling or a screw lathe (optional ways of building a screw) 12:16 < ybit> hrm, /me considers creating a resume in html instead of latex 12:16 < kanzure> ybit: are you looking for a job 12:16 < ybit> yes, i am now 12:16 < kanzure> how much do you need 12:16 < ybit> minimum, just enough to subsist 12:16 < kanzure> how much is that 12:16 < ybit> well, and build a reprap 12:16 < genehacker> have you figured out how to work from a cad model to how to make it yet? 12:17 < kanzure> genehacker: what? 12:17 < ybit> kanzure: depends on where i'm located 12:17 < kanzure> ybit: let's say you're down in austin 12:17 < kanzure> how much would you need 12:17 < ybit> if it's here, oh, um.. 12:17 < kanzure> or in alabama 12:17 < ybit> give me one sec.. 12:18 < genehacker> when you design something you don't start out with a lump of metal and use various manufacturing processes to shape that lump of metal into your part 12:18 < ybit> 7-8k here in alabama 12:18 < genehacker> you design the part with the manufacturing processes in mind then figure out how to make it 12:18 < kanzure> ybit: per month? 12:18 < ybit> per year 12:19 < kanzure> genehacker: the way fenn was doing it was that you _do_ select the manufacturing processes 12:19 < kanzure> there's two ways of looking at it 12:19 < kanzure> we can either have the CAM engines figure it out for us in certain cases 12:19 < genehacker> I know, but people don't do that 12:19 < kanzure> or, use fenn's idea where we automatically generate possible designs that match the look and feel of whatever the user supplied 12:19 < kanzure> for instance use a boring operation and see if it matches the parametric bore that was requested 12:19 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:19 < genehacker> so have you figured out how to do that 12:20 < kanzure> then at the end of all of this you assemble the sequence of manufacturing operations that made the final object that was "pretty damn close" 12:20 < kanzure> yes we know "how" to do it 12:20 < kanzure> but the problem is that i don't have any machine tools, and fenn doesn't have as much process representation data as he'd like 12:20 < genehacker> on something like a bore you could make it exactly 12:20 < kanzure> you're thinking about CAM stuff 12:21 < genehacker> what do you need as far as process representation data is concerned? 12:21 < kanzure> ask fenn. last he was working on that front was a way to talk about geometric constraints of, say, a bandsaw during a cutting operation (can't do a 90 degree turn in 1 sec) 12:22 < kanzure> emc i think has a CAM planner, but i don't remember. another question to field for fenn. 12:23 < genehacker> why are you considering time taken to cut a 90 degree turn? 12:23 < kanzure> the consideration is, more importantly, that a bandsaw can't _do_ that 12:23 < genehacker> isn't it more important that the machine is capable of doing such an operation? 12:23 < genehacker> oh 12:23 < kanzure> if you know what each tool is capable of doing, you just permutate the possible sequence of actions on a chunk of metal 12:23 < genehacker> oops 12:23 < ybit> by my estimations, i only need to work ~21 hours/wk if i'm payed 7.25/hr. anyway, my bro knows the owners of http://snowmasters.com/ and it looks like i'm about to be working for them doing webdev 12:23 < kanzure> until you get something that looks like what the user wanted to have made 12:24 < genehacker> what about molding processes where you're not working on a chunk of metal but an amount of metal determined by the volume of the mold 12:25 < kanzure> i haven't thought about this in a while and i think it's a non-issue 12:25 < genehacker> you don't start out with a lump of metal designing a part 12:26 < kanzure> i don't think you're listening to me 12:26 < kanzure> you usually don't. so i'm going to stop talking now. :) 12:26 < genehacker> ok 12:28 < transplexity> out for 90 mins outdoors walking activity 12:28 < genehacker> is the chunk of metal of predetermined volume and shape 12:29 < kanzure> no but you could look at the max dimensions of the part and figure out what chunk of metal to start with 12:29 < kanzure> this was the algorithmic way that i was explaining 12:29 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c91531d7.virtua.com.br] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 12:29 < genehacker> ok then I understand your idea 12:37 -!- thesnark [n=michael@ppp-69-221-4-192.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:37 < kanzure> hello thesnark 12:37 < thesnark> hello kanzure 12:41 < kanzure> fenn: ybit wants to know if he can take your room 12:43 -!- jrutherford [n=chatzill@cpe-24-27-51-109.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:43 < kanzure> hello jerry 12:43 < jrutherford> Greetings. 12:45 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 41 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 41 normal] 12:45 < jrutherford> This is the hacker space group correct? 12:46 < kanzure> martin is currently offline but genehacker, ybit, fenn, and a few others are in on the austin hackerspace project for sure 12:47 < jrutherford> Okay kool. I am just getting started in this area... moved from St Louis to Austin... now just became president of the Austin Robot Group... so my world domination plan is working well. 12:47 < genehacker> any progress on the hackerspace kanzure? 12:47 < kanzure> :) ours too 12:47 < kanzure> genehacker: we're meeting on the 2nd, that's why i was asking when you're back in austin 12:48 < genehacker> I won't be able to make it unfortunately 12:50 < rmadams> kanzure: is there a OSX binary port of heeksCAD? 12:50 < jrutherford> Okay... so 10:00 On Saturday, Jan 2 at 209 Ben White Blvd - Suite 106 - Correct? (This Saturday) 12:51 < kanzure> yep 12:51 < rmadams> kanzure: thanks! 12:51 < kanzure> we're still waiting for confirmation from the guy with the key (les filip) 12:51 < kanzure> rmadams: hm? 12:51 < jrutherford> I have nothing else scheduled... so count me in. 10:00 until when... all day? A couple hours? Midnight? 12:51 < genehacker> what will you guys be discussing? 12:51 < kanzure> jrutherford: there's no scheduled end, but at some point i'd like to do lunch 12:52 < rmadams> kanzure: thought that "yep" was for me, re. OSX binary port of heeksCAD 12:52 < kanzure> rmadams: oh sorry. uhm. i don't know. :) 12:52 < genehacker> hnmmm... you know I might be able to be virtually present 12:52 < kanzure> genehacker: there's no internet connection 12:52 * thesnark suggests speakerphone 12:52 < kanzure> genehacker: some of us are building some walls apparently? i don't know who. i don't really want to 12:53 < kanzure> thesnark: bah, you and your solution-oriented mind! 12:53 < thesnark> haha 12:53 < genehacker> no internet? 12:53 < jrutherford> kanzure: Sounds like a plan. Likely good places in the area for that. Did you also want to discuss building the laser cut robot arm? 12:53 < kanzure> wifi is being purchased soon 12:53 < genehacker> oh at the space 12:53 < kanzure> jrutherford: yess i do 12:53 < genehacker> you guys have a lasercutter now? 12:54 < kanzure> i'm also going to try to convince you to not do that project quite yet ;-) 12:54 < jrutherford> Ok. I'll finish work here in a few hours if you want to get together today. Actually... pretty much all week after work... except Thursday... robot meeting. 12:54 < kanzure> well i'm basically 0.5mi away from the address you just listed 12:54 < jrutherford> 35W Epilog, 24x12 table. 12:54 < jrutherford> grin 12:54 < genehacker> what sort of robot arm? something like bre made? 12:55 < genehacker> nice 12:55 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:55 < kanzure> genehacker: oomlout's arm 12:55 < kanzure> jrutherford: where is that epilog laser cutter? 12:55 < genehacker> not familiar with it, link? 12:55 < kanzure> http://oomlout.com/ somewhere 12:55 < jrutherford> Trying to get members of the robot group interested in building some projects... get activity levels up. 12:55 < genehacker> oh that one 12:55 < genehacker> what do we want to do with it? 12:56 < kanzure> jrutherford: how's that going? last big project they did was a few years back i recall? 12:56 < jrutherford> Here at the house... in Kyle. 12:56 < kanzure> great 12:56 < kanzure> are you on the east side of the highway? 12:56 < genehacker> why not make something to automate the lasercutter instead? 12:56 < jrutherford> they voted me in at the Christmas dinner... this thursday will be the first meeting where the rest of the group will learn that ... I want to hit the ground running. 12:57 < kanzure> genehacker: the laser cutter is already automatic. it runs off of a typical windows printer driver 12:57 < genehacker> I know 12:57 < kanzure> jrutherford: i don't mean to be pessimistic but from my attempts to prod the group, i don't think they will be interested 12:57 < kanzure> jrutherford: but if they are, that's great 12:57 < genehacker> why not automate the insertion of plastic and removal of cut plastic so it can run all night 12:57 < jrutherford> http://rutherford-robotics.com/laser.html 12:58 < thesnark> kanzure since my time is limited but I would like to help when I can, if you can create a list of software problems or even just simple IT tasks you need solved it would make it easier for myself and whoever else to work on 12:58 -!- biohackernoob [i=4404d867@gateway/web/freenode/x-tladruzqesolflwf] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:58 < kanzure> thesnark: okay 12:58 < biohackernoob> hey kanzure 12:58 < kanzure> hi biohackernoob 12:58 < jrutherford> I was president of the Missouri Robotics group... they went from 8 core members to 50. They only meet once a month... but the forum has been active: http://robomo.com 12:58 < jrutherford> http://robomo.com/Forum 12:58 < kanzure> thesnark: please please bug me to the end of the earth until i give you that list 12:59 < biohackernoob> you know how we were talking about injecting DNA into plant cells? well, i was thinking of something like this: http://4e.plantphys.net/image.php?id=42 12:59 < thesnark> kanzure I can do that :) 12:59 < biohackernoob> its smaller than a needle, and bigger than that probe machine 12:59 < genehacker> you could use a gene gun to shoot dna coated particles in 12:59 < biohackernoob> but i dont have a gene gun :P 12:59 < genehacker> there's a diy one somewhere 13:00 < kanzure> jrutherford: my mom lives on the opposite side of the highway of you. 13:00 < jrutherford> I'm going to drop off for now... get back to work. If you want to talk about a project or whatever... email me jerryarutherford@gmail.com or give me a call after 5:00 512-262-7899 13:00 < jrutherford> see ya. 13:00 < kanzure> jrutherford: okay, thanks :) 13:00 < kanzure> cya 13:00 < biohackernoob> why cant i just inject it with something like the picture? 13:00 < biohackernoob> how is that any different than a gene gun? 13:00 -!- jrutherford [n=chatzill@cpe-24-27-51-109.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 13:00 < kanzure> a gene gun is sometimes, quite literally, a shotgun 13:00 < genehacker> because you are doing one cell at a time 13:00 < genehacker> it is a shot gun 13:01 < genehacker> for the most part 13:01 < biohackernoob> so injecting is no different than a gene gun correct? 13:01 < genehacker> yeah but inject looks like its a slow process 13:01 < rmadams> Using a gene cun for instroducing non-native DNA is actually quite tricky 13:02 < kanzure> easier than building an AFM probe tip to decorate the tip with a plasmid ;-) 13:02 < biohackernoob> well i'd rather handle the stuff myself instead of building a gene gun 13:02 < rmadams> we did it using CaP-precipaitated DNA, and that worked okay, 13:02 < rmadams> but we had expression problems until we pretty substantially modified the upstream non-coding regions 13:02 < biohackernoob> im thinking injecting would be by far the easiest method 13:03 < rmadams> We wrote a paper detail that method, although it was a while ago, but it did work- you could show beta-gal activity from expressed enzyme 13:03 < biohackernoob> i currently have the materials to make a non-hollow 10 micron barb 13:03 < biohackernoob> now all i need is to figure out where to buy plasmids? 13:04 < kanzure> rmadams: i eat papers for breakfast, lunch and dinner. you have a pdf or link? 13:04 < rmadams> YEp- I was looking for a PDF. 13:04 < rmadams> I can give you a medline link- do you have access to full-text journals from there? 13:04 < kanzure> yep 13:05 -!- genehacker [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 13:08 < biohackernoob> so where do you guys buy plasmids? ive searched for hours on the internet and i can't find anything :/ 13:08 < ybit> btw, commenting out glx and dri fixed the segfault, kanzure 13:09 < kanzure> biohackernoob: i think most people have a company synthesize the plasmid for them 13:09 < kanzure> for instance: http://www.natx.com/PlasmidDNAManufacturing.html 13:10 < biohackernoob> thats expensive though isnt it? :( 13:10 < kanzure> dunno never ordered from them 13:10 < kanzure> depends on how big your plasmid has to be 13:11 < kanzure> go find someone in a lab that has a standard plasmid for ecoli and have them PCR up some copies for you 13:11 < kanzure> but that's for ecoli obviously 13:11 < rmadams> kanzure: Here is one, although I think it is retrovirally-mediated. Looking for our gene-gun papers now. Somatic gene therapy targeted to the thyroid, javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Transplant%20Proc.'); 1992 Dec;24(6):2973-4. 13:11 < kanzure> hah 13:11 < kanzure> javascript sucks :( 13:11 < kanzure> but at least i have the title and date now, thanks 13:11 < kanzure> you know, it's weird. i recently read about gene therapy and thyroids, but in a different context 13:12 < biohackernoob> well im looking for a particular plasmid, 2 infact: pHK724 and pHK555 13:14 < biohackernoob> it appears that natx only makes copies of your plasmid.... :/ 13:14 < biohackernoob> i need a place where i can order the plasmids i need is small quantities 13:14 < biohackernoob> i dont need much at all 13:16 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:16 < kanzure> hey Martyn 13:16 < kanzure> biohackernoob is wondering where he can order plasmids on the webs 13:16 < Martyn> Hey, what's shakin? 13:16 < Martyn> He's not likely going to be able to mail order them 13:16 < kanzure> right 13:17 < biohackernoob> whys that? 13:17 * Martyn *sighs* 13:17 < kanzure> most are set up to serve academic customers 13:17 < Martyn> because bioengineering is not yet a "do it in your garage" style activity 13:17 < biohackernoob> well im at UCLA... im sure i could figure out how to send it there 13:17 < Martyn> That's not the point 13:17 < rmadams> You know- one easy way to get gene transfer into skin fibroblasts is to use a needle-less injector, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_injector) A postdoc in my lab did some experiments using this technique on mice, and it worked well enough that you could get a visible beta-gal blue coloration on the skin of nude mice via expression of the injected DNA. 13:18 < Martyn> They will want to know what project you're associated with 13:18 < biohackernoob> o really? :/ 13:18 < eleitl> you would surprise what you can do in your garage 13:18 < Martyn> Me? No 13:18 < eleitl> be surprised even 13:18 < kanzure> eleitl: be careful, Martyn is like you except more stubborn 13:19 < eleitl> more stubborn? impossible... 13:19 < biohackernoob> well one thing i cant do in my garage is obtain lux plasmids :( 13:19 < Martyn> I have a friend with a frickin fusor in his garage :) this is not typical. 13:19 < biohackernoob> cool 13:19 < eleitl> I have a friend with an UHV pump stand in his living room 13:19 < eleitl> laminating an optical bench right now 13:19 < Martyn> Heh. 13:19 < eleitl> 4 m optical bench in his living room 13:20 < biohackernoob> so all these DIY biohackers... where do they get the plasmids/DNA they need if they cant order it? 13:20 < Martyn> My father and I had a flourine-xenon laser in our garage for four years. I think it's the funniest thing. 13:20 < kanzure> biohackernoob: they order DNA from gene synthesis companies 13:20 < Martyn> biohackernoob : They can. 13:20 < eleitl> biohackernoob: some assembly required 13:20 < biohackernoob> so when ppl say they do this stuff for under $400 they're bsing? 13:20 < eleitl> probably, yes. 13:21 < Martyn> biohackernoob : They have banded together to form projects, and as Bryan just noted, they order from established bio companies and work together to lower costs by batch ordering. 13:21 < ybit> aha, transplexity was daniel hoffman 13:21 < kanzure> $400 will get you maybe a 200 bp sequence ordered 13:21 < Martyn> The /overall/ cost might be in the $1-4K range, but individually the cost is lowered 13:21 < biohackernoob> hm.. well if i were to order from a gene synthesis company, how would i get the sequence i need? 13:21 < kanzure> you can't do much interesting with 200bp 13:21 * ybit just got around to catching up on email 13:21 < kanzure> they will ship it to you in the mail 13:21 < biohackernoob> all i have is a plasmid ID: pHK724, pHK555 13:21 < kanzure> http://mrgene.com/ 13:22 < kanzure> i think Martyn's cost estimate is pretty close to spot on :) 13:22 < biohackernoob> wait $400 for only 200 bp? O.O 13:22 < kanzure> er 13:22 < kanzure> $200 for 400 bp 13:22 < ybit> Martyn: why don't you use screen btw? you've been around linux long enough to know better 13:22 < kanzure> the price is actually about $0.39/bp these days 13:23 < Martyn> ybit : Non sequiter? 13:23 < biohackernoob> thats still insanely expensive... how many copies do u get? 13:23 < Martyn> (sp?) 13:23 < eleitl> non sequitur 13:23 < kanzure> biohackernoob: it doesn't matter. you just PCR it yourself and copy it on your own 13:23 < kanzure> at least a few nanograms 13:23 < biohackernoob> but i dont have that kind of equipment :/ 13:23 < kanzure> a thermocycler? 13:24 < biohackernoob> thats just more money to spend :( 13:24 < Martyn> DUH 13:24 < rmadams> biohackernoob: themocycler is easy- enzyme is a little more complicated 13:24 < Martyn> biohackernoob : I know you like this idea of "the simplest possible experiement" but there really is some basic equipment you /must/ have to do biosynth 13:24 < kanzure> thermocycler is a good first project 13:24 < rmadams> biohackernoob: you can make do with three waterbaths, a stopwatch and patience 13:24 < kanzure> and you can confirm with fun dyes that give you cancer :) 13:25 < eleitl> you can probably buy PCR machines on eBay more cheaply 13:25 < biohackernoob> rmadams: really? 13:25 < rmadams> You will need to get some thermostable polymerase, though 13:25 < Martyn> and you can build a good PCR cycler with a microcontroller, some nichrome wire, and a power supply ( well, it's a bit more complex .. but not ridiculously so ) 13:25 < biohackernoob> how do u copy DNA with just a waterbath? 13:25 < eleitl> ethidium bromide is not that dangerous 13:25 < rmadams> biohacker: sure- that is how we used to do PCR before thermocyclers became commercially available 13:25 < Martyn> rmadams : GAH! I'd hate to have to do it all by hand that way .. soooo slow. 13:26 < Martyn> I agree that you could probably buy a thermocycler inexpensively on labx.com 13:26 < rmadams> three temperature-controlled waterbaths are the easy part. You will also need some thermostable polymerase, like TAQ, and the right salt buffer 13:26 < Martyn> rmadams : Yep, and a nice sterile environment 13:26 < rmadams> Martyn: oh, it _is_. It _is_! 13:27 < kanzure> how do you do sterility with the waterbath method anyway? 13:27 < rmadams> I used to do it while I was reading. I read through Proust. :-P 13:27 < Martyn> kanzure : the sample remains in a sealed tube, that you transfer between the baths 13:28 < rmadams> kanzure: as long as the tubes are prepared in a clean (sterile not needed- you just need to be away from where contaminating DNA might be present) you are okay. 13:28 < Martyn> The thing I hated waaaay back when was having to make all the micropipettes for my dad 13:28 < rmadams> Martyn is right. 13:28 < Martyn> Taking a pipette, streeeeeeeetching it over a flame, then autoclaving the hell out of 'em 13:28 < rmadams> Use a little oil to over the reactant, too, to meek the material from vaporizing and chaing the concentration of buffer salts in the little tubes 13:29 < rmadams> Martyn: yep. Hated that, too. 13:29 < Martyn> I still have little pieces of glass in my left thumb. They will never come out 13:29 < rmadams> I guess that is why I eventually gave up on the genetic engineering and went into computational biology 13:29 < Martyn> almost as thin as the fibers in insulation 13:30 < rmadams> PhD in molecular biology got P3/4 retrovirus work. In computer science got nice quiet desk job! :-) 13:32 < Martyn> Well, they are BOTH quiet desk jobs 13:33 < Martyn> just one involves a little more lab work than the other 13:33 < kanzure> my ultracentrifuges are always noisy bastards 13:33 < Martyn> that's why you get perkin-elmer ones 13:35 < Martyn> I have a bad childhood memory of one of those centrifuges though .. I was in the back of the lab playing with the fish, when the rotor cracked apart while spinning at around 100k 13:35 < Martyn> To say it exploded would be an understatement 13:36 < Martyn> Hmm .. no, I think it was a Beckmann 13:36 < Martyn> not a perkin 13:37 < biohackernoob> http://www.synthesis.cc/2009/10/the-lava-amp-is-alive.html what about this? 13:37 < kanzure> lame 13:37 < biohackernoob> ? 13:37 < kanzure> they paid someone $100k to make a prototype that should have cost only $100 13:38 < kanzure> they bought "IP" for it 13:38 < kanzure> it's a simple thermocycler.. jeebus. 13:38 < biohackernoob> ya, and it hits the market soon doesnt it? 13:38 < biohackernoob> i can just wait for that right? 13:39 < kanzure> just get a used thermocycler off of labx 13:39 < biohackernoob> but the prices on those were like $3000 + O.o 13:39 < kanzure> used? 13:39 < kanzure> you might as well build your own 13:40 < biohackernoob> lol found a thing how to build a $10 thermocycler! 13:41 < Martyn> kanzure : Temperature stability is -very- important to yield and accurate replication 13:42 < Martyn> kanzure : I really don't like when you shrug off people's hard work ... 13:42 < Martyn> kanzure : It's not an endearing trait. 13:42 < kanzure> what are you talking about now? 13:42 < kanzure> the lava-amp? 13:42 < Martyn> kanzure : The LavaAmp thermocycler 13:42 < Martyn> it's really quite ingenious. 13:43 < kanzure> joseph and guido weren't the ones who came up with it 13:43 -!- jm [n=j@p57B9D566.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:43 < kanzure> it doesn't take $100k to build a prototype of that, sorry 13:43 < kanzure> did you read the paper? 13:44 < Martyn> I did, and the original used more power than a USB connection could carry 13:45 < Martyn> the one they created uses about 2W, and the heaters they chose are very clever 13:45 < Martyn> It's a good system, and once brought into high-volume production these things will be cheap .. 13:45 < kanzure> they didn't create squat, they just paid some guy named "carlson" or something a ridiculous amount of money to do what fenn offered to do for less than $1k 13:45 < biohackernoob> well guys... since the only way to obtain plasmids atm is gene sequencers.. what if i waited a few years? do u think some service might start by then that is geared towards diy biohacking? 13:46 < kanzure> biohackernoob: waiting around forever isn't very DIY of you :) 13:49 < Martyn> "Some guy" being Rob Carlson .. yeah 13:49 < biohackernoob> well the way im thinking is: i have other hobbies i can do now, and i can just wait for biohacking to get some more momentum 13:49 < biohackernoob> then it will be easier to enter the hobby 13:49 < kanzure> Martyn: i'm sorry i forgot to kiss his ass 13:51 < biohackernoob> you think thats a good idea? (for me :P) 13:51 < kanzure> no, i think you need to challenge yourself 13:52 < biohackernoob> well the issue is money, not the challenge :/ 13:52 < kanzure> you can't make a $10 thermocycler? 13:52 < biohackernoob> no, i cant make the plasmids i need 13:52 < kanzure> maybe that's a more long-term project 13:52 < kanzure> and in the mean time you should get the basics down 13:53 < biohackernoob> eh 13:53 < biohackernoob> but even if i made a thermocycler... i have no DNA to replicate and test with 13:53 < kanzure> you can extract DNA from strawberries pretty easily 13:54 < biohackernoob> but how would i know that im replicating it properly and such? 13:54 < kanzure> you can also buy a cheap kit that gives you Taq and some purified nucleotides 13:54 < kanzure> you run it through something known as a gel 13:54 < kanzure> this is a good first step project 13:54 < Martyn> heck, you can extract the DNA from chicken liver trivially 13:55 < kanzure> in the end what you hope to see is (stained) DNA running down the gel being pulled by an electric current 13:55 < Martyn> Yep 13:55 < kanzure> so i would do it in this order: gel, thermocycler, world domination 13:55 < biohackernoob> ya, but you cant really DO anything with that..... 13:55 < Martyn> *groans* 13:55 < Martyn> biohackernoob : You can LEARN with that 13:55 < biohackernoob> except learn what your doing... 13:55 < Martyn> and that's what you need to do first 13:55 < biohackernoob> bleh i hate that step :P 13:55 < Martyn> tough 13:55 < kanzure> well 13:55 < kanzure> you could order some special primers i guess 13:55 < kanzure> and detect whether or not certain sequences are present in DNA 13:56 < kanzure> and then test different samples, like your family's or something 13:56 < kanzure> Martyn: surely there's something more exciting we can give him to do with an electrophoresis setup 14:02 < Martyn> Yep, don't get killed by the electrophoresis power supply 14:02 < Martyn> or die a horrible poisoning death due to the polyacrylamide gel (neurotoxin) 14:07 < bkero> kanzure: I might know what? 14:08 < kanzure> whether or not current gfx cards can push billions or trillions of triangles 14:46 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25 -!- JayDugger [n=duggerj@pool-173-57-16-175.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:31 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:36 < kanzure> temple grandin in austin on 2010-02-05 15:50 < kanzure> uh well this is unexpected 15:50 < kanzure> someone gave me login credentials to a server 15:50 < kanzure> but it seems to be running a weird operating system 15:50 < kanzure> it doesn't respond to ssh, ping, http 15:50 < kanzure> i think it might be windows, but i can't remote desktop into it 15:50 < kanzure> any hints? 15:50 < JayDugger> Ouch! stop sending packets to my brain! 15:51 < JayDugger> Seriously, have you asked the donor? 15:51 < kanzure> i'm somewhat embarrassed that i assumed it would be a sane environment :( 15:51 < kanzure> maybe it's an sql-only server 15:52 < JayDugger> Yeah, well...crow tastes bad regardless of whether you eat a little or a lot. 15:52 < ybit> who here has read diamond age? please say it gets better 15:52 < JayDugger> Ah...ending's a little weak. 15:52 < JayDugger> I think you get served best by asking the donor for aid, kanzure. 15:54 < QuantumG> ybit: the writing is terrible throughout 15:54 < ybit> and so is the narration 15:54 < ybit> i have the audio books, i'll post them to the server in a bit 15:54 < QuantumG> heh 15:54 < ybit> the only thing that got me through it was speeding it up and playing 8bit music in the background 15:54 < kanzure> so any hints? rdesktop, ssh, ftp. none of these are working 15:55 < JayDugger> Stephenson's an idea man. If you want good prose, try the classics. 15:55 < JayDugger> Telnet? 15:55 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: how do you usually remotely access a windows server? 15:55 < kanzure> telnet for what port? 15:55 < eleitl> RDP 15:55 < kanzure> remote desktop protocol? 15:55 < eleitl> Win 2008 does have ssh and/or ftp, IIRC. 15:55 < kanzure> it's 2003 15:55 < ybit> windows server 2003 15:55 < eleitl> RDP is your best bet then. 15:55 < ybit> hrm 15:55 < QuantumG> JayDugger: it's a shame he doesn't just write down his ideas instead of writing tomes that poorly pass them on 15:55 < JayDugger> Gosh, I haven't any suggestions other than the default. 15:55 < ybit> ftp? 15:55 < kanzure> i thought "rdesktop" implements RDP 15:56 < eleitl> what does nmap say, kanzure? 15:56 * kanzure looks 15:56 < kanzure> it will take a while 15:56 < kanzure> it's also taking unusually long to respond to my pings 15:56 * ybit gives up on diamond age 15:56 < ybit> it is bad to not care for fiction? 15:56 < eleitl> it's just a book, ybit. 15:56 < QuantumG> I've probably read all the Stephenson available 15:56 * ybit prefers non-fiction 15:57 < JayDugger> If you want good writing, try Ballard or W.J.Williams. 15:57 < ybit> i.e. scholarly papers 15:57 < QuantumG> glutton for punishment I guess :) 15:57 < eleitl> Ballard is great. 15:57 < QuantumG> ybit: read Peter F. Hamilton. 15:57 < JayDugger> Williams recycles the same protagonist, so take warning. 15:57 < kanzure> huh can't access google either 15:57 < QuantumG> start with Pandora's Star 15:58 < kanzure> i did hamilton's "mind star rising" 15:58 < ybit> think i'll stick to tts audio of papers 15:58 < QuantumG> or Stephen Baxter, start with Manifold Time 15:58 < JayDugger> Do you have a good system for tts? 15:58 < kanzure> festival 15:58 < ybit> yes 15:58 < ybit> ^ 15:59 < JayDugger> Got it. 15:59 < JayDugger> Thank you both. 15:59 < eleitl> good night. 15:59 < ybit> i have kinetic self replicating machines and some mol. bio book i'll put on the server tonight 15:59 < JayDugger> Good night, eleitl. 15:59 < ybit> gn 15:59 < eleitl> n8t, JayDugger. 15:59 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"] 16:00 -!- genehacker [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:00 < kanzure> hah 16:00 < kanzure> one out, another in 16:00 < kanzure> very well. 16:01 < technologiclee3> ybit: i read Age - the end is a lot weak -and at that level of tech things would not work like that throught the story - good story tho 16:01 < JayDugger> kanzure, What do you learn from nmap's haruspicy? 16:02 < technologiclee3> Chritons - Prey came closer to the mark 16:02 < QuantumG> when is any of the Kurzweil movies coming out? 16:02 < kanzure> why can't i ping 206.220.200.200 16:02 < kanzure> JayDugger: i forgot what arguments to pass nmap 16:02 < kanzure> QuantumG: they're scheduled to debut the night before the singularity 16:03 < kanzure> *to pass to nmap 16:03 < JayDugger> Kanzure: I rarely use nmap myself, and so have no better advice than RTFM, or use the GUI. 16:03 < QuantumG> "Transcendent Man" and "The Singularity is Near: A True Story About the Future" 16:03 < kanzure> there's a gui to nmap? haha 16:03 < kanzure> QuantumG: yeah i have a friend or two featured in those :) 16:03 < kanzure> well not "featured" 16:03 < kanzure> one of those is about ray himself right? 16:04 < QuantumG> first one, yeah 16:04 < QuantumG> I heard an interview where someone asked when it was coming out 16:04 < QuantumG> and he said "oh, it screened at the film festival...." 16:04 < QuantumG> facepalm 16:05 < kanzure> something weird is going on with my connection 16:05 < kanzure> Invalid MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 keyERROR: Failed to open display: localhost:11.0 16:05 < QuantumG> if I ever interview someone I'm going to inform them of the "weasel button" 16:06 < JayDugger> That's strange... 16:06 < JayDugger> Sounds X-related. 16:06 < QuantumG> "I will push this button if you are giving me a weasel answer" 16:06 < kanzure> grumble grumble 16:07 < JayDugger> Why does a W2003 box think your box an X-client. 16:07 < kanzure> i'm sshing into another server and then running rdesktop 16:07 < kanzure> so i'm doing ssh -X of course 16:08 < QuantumG> hmm, maybe its trying to use an X feature you don't have 16:09 < kanzure> oh 16:09 < kanzure> there is no remote desktop service installed 16:09 < kanzure> it's just ftp and an sql server 16:09 < kanzure> lovely. 16:09 < JayDugger> Nicely explains the problem, though. 16:10 < kanzure> well, does anyone have a good linux-compatible client to what's probably a microsoft sql server? 16:10 < kanzure> ybit: i recall you were doing some bullshit work with that once? 16:10 < kanzure> sqsh? 16:10 < ybit> i logged on using windows remote desktop 16:11 < ybit> that's how the company had it setup 16:12 < ybit> you shouldn't have to use a windows virtual desktop 16:13 < QuantumG> kanzure: so, err, has the revolution started yet? 16:13 < ybit> ? 16:13 < kanzure> working on it 16:13 < ybit> QuantumG: of course it has! nominate ron paul! ;) 16:13 < QuantumG> kk, let me know 16:13 < kanzure> but just for the record 16:14 < kanzure> which revolution? 16:14 < QuantumG> super-empowered-individual revolution, thanks 16:15 < JayDugger> Bit of a moving target, that. 16:15 < ybit> that started many centuries ago, it's on an exponential curve which is why it's hard to see 16:15 < technologiclee3> QuantumG: Yes this is the part where they organize 16:15 < QuantumG> ybit: thanks ray 16:15 < ybit> :) 16:15 < ybit> it's h+, i can't go a day without mentionging exp. curves 16:15 < QuantumG> ohhhh 16:16 < QuantumG> I had a thought the other day which you'll enjoy 16:16 < ybit> go on 16:16 < QuantumG> how many proteins is egg white? 16:16 < QuantumG> mostly just one right? 16:16 < JayDugger> Curves are everywhere...http://flic.kr/p/7qq4hF 16:16 < kanzure> well sqsh doesn't seem to work 16:16 < kanzure> um 16:17 < kanzure> i wasn't expecting windows to be this dysfunctional and inaccessible 16:17 < ybit> QuantumG: http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-egg%20whites000000000000000000000.html 16:17 < ybit> it seems the answer depends on the type of egg white 16:17 < technologiclee3> there is a festival plugin for pidgen - i think i turned it all on - have not heard anything yet 16:18 < technologiclee3> kanzure: have you not learned yet ? ; ) 16:19 < QuantumG> Egg white contains approximately 40 different proteins. 16:19 < ybit> that i did not know 16:19 < ybit> so what's the point? 16:19 < QuantumG> well, like all good ideas, it fails as soon as I start the research :) 16:20 < technologiclee3> it shows 1.5 grams per serving of whole egg ? 16:20 < technologiclee3> of ash 16:20 < QuantumG> anyway, I was thinking that synthesizing the dna, adding ribosomes and making the protein all in the test tube might be possible 16:22 < QuantumG> At 62-65°C, the most heat sensitive protein in egg white, ovotransferrin, constituting 12% of the egg white, starts its denaturation and the egg white starts setting. At 80°C, the main protein ovalbumin (54% of the egg white) denatures. The denaturation and rearrangement at 80°C has caused the egg white to be firm. 16:22 < ybit> well gentlemen and ladies, i must retrieve a few parts from the junk pile and meet up with my long-time friend: http://cs-people.bu.edu/house/ ...and then other stuff that i don't want to mention because i would prefer not to subconciously influence myself otherwise 16:23 < technologiclee3> oohh i clicked - wirelessly uploaded by Eye -Fi and they are advertising a wireless enables SD card http://www.eye.fi/ 16:24 < QuantumG> see, that kind of description makes me wonder if one can experiment with protein construction to create a mixture that when heated creates an edible food mass 16:24 < kanzure> QuantumG: yes that's called "in vivo protein synthesis", it's actually a "common" lab technique 16:24 < kanzure> dunno about edibility 16:25 < kanzure> er or do i mean in vitro 16:25 < kanzure> in vitro :) 16:25 < QuantumG> yes 16:25 < QuantumG> its the edible part that I find interesting 16:25 < QuantumG> I mean, one can drink amino acids... but its not very nice 16:34 < QuantumG> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/protein/NP_990483.1?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Sequence.Sequence_ResultsPanel.Sequence_RVDocSum 16:34 < QuantumG> is the big one 16:35 < QuantumG> presumably frying it will result in something like an egg white 16:35 < JayDugger> QuantumG, why not just buy eggs? 16:35 < QuantumG> might need some of this too: 16:35 < QuantumG> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/protein/CAA26040.1?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Sequence.Sequence_ResultsPanel.Sequence_RVDocSum 16:37 < QuantumG> 1. some vego freaks won't eat them 2. there's a whole lot of crap in egg whites that some people don't like 3. I find the idea of food made from scratch interesting 16:37 < JayDugger> I'll pick 3. :) 16:38 < QuantumG> being able to bootstrap the amino acids from methane and a spark gap would be awesome 16:42 -!- biohackernoob [i=4404d867@gateway/web/freenode/x-tladruzqesolflwf] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:43 < QuantumG> so I'm imagining a machine that takes co2 and hydrogen from the air, makes methane, makes amino acids, sequences dna, applies ribosomes (and has a closed loop to reproduce them) to produce a mass of protein, cooks it and serves it. 16:44 < kanzure> sequences what dna 16:44 < QuantumG> err, I mean, produces the sequence of dna 16:44 < kanzure> synthesizes :) 16:44 < QuantumG> yeah :) 16:44 < kanzure> i haven't looked into molecular gastronomy before, so i don't know what the difference between raw and cooked protein might be 16:47 < QuantumG> of course, there's also a certain amount of this that could be done by microbes.. but I'd want to be ensured that the microbes are secreting the proteins and being separated from them. 16:49 < QuantumG> and a genome design that is resistant to mutation 16:51 < QuantumG> .. there's something I find awesome about the idea of a "food machine" that requires only electricity and access to air. 16:51 < JayDugger> As opposed to a solar-powered one? 16:52 < kanzure> you mean a plant? 16:52 < JayDugger> E.g., any food crop you care to name? 16:52 < JayDugger> It is a cool idea, though. 16:52 < QuantumG> solar powered via electricity would be more convenient 16:52 < JayDugger> I agree. Plants have that whole diurnal cycle. 16:52 < QuantumG> then you can use the solar panel for something else. 16:52 < JayDugger> Lazy things. 16:55 < QuantumG> of course, then I giggle when I imagine people putting a hand crank onto it 16:55 < JayDugger> That is funny. 17:03 -!- zancas [n=zancas@dsl092-134-109.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:03 < kanzure> hey zancas 17:03 < zancas> howdy 17:03 < zancas> what's the word my fellow biohacker? 17:03 < zancas> :> 17:15 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22 -!- MrClif [n=clif@c-67-189-77-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #hplusroadmap [] 17:22 < QuantumG> http://sugru.com/ 17:22 < QuantumG> o..k 17:23 -!- nada [n=edwinros@ip65-46-14-94.z14-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:23 < nada> sup dudes 17:25 -!- nada is now known as blah 17:25 < QuantumG> nada 17:25 -!- blah is now known as LeeByshopSux4Eve 17:25 < LeeByshopSux4Eve> hay guyz 17:25 -!- LeeByshopSux4Eve is now known as LeeByshopSux4Evr 17:26 < LeeByshopSux4Evr> no one is saying anything 17:26 < kanzure> i'm chatting it out with a professor about some cnc machine designs 17:28 < technologiclee3> LeeByshopSux4Evr: howdy 17:29 < technologiclee3> i'm catching up about what they were talking about - is IRC always where you go in a room and can not see what has been said in the last few minutes? 17:29 < LeeByshopSux4Evr> yo 17:29 < LeeByshopSux4Evr> pretty much yeah @lee 17:29 < kanzure> if you want to see what we've been talking about, here's the logs: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplusroadmap.log.tar.gz 17:30 < LeeByshopSux4Evr> IRC is where you go to prove how hardcore of a nerd you really are 17:30 < technologiclee3> well back the the rant i was stating on FB... 17:30 < LeeByshopSux4Evr> we're in a transhuman IRC channel...i think we're at the top of the foodchain no? 17:31 < technologiclee3> well if they had too many more hoops - i don't know that i could get in in Ubuntu - but now after a reformat i can add add the channels again 17:31 < technologiclee3> but there is the problem of my screen name registration.. 17:31 < technologiclee3> i have technologiclee registered and a confirmation for technologiclee2... but 17:32 < LeeByshopSux4Evr> haha 17:32 -!- LeeByshopSux4Evr is now known as Edwin 17:32 < technologiclee3> whe i try to confirm the registration - it says i have to sign in - when i try to sign in it says i have to confirm reg.... 17:32 < Edwin> sex 17:32 -!- Edwin is now known as EdwinRosero 17:32 < technologiclee3> not a big deal but and example to barriers of entry 17:33 < technologiclee3> i do not think is should be exclusive 17:33 -!- EdwinRosero is now known as PixelHuman 17:33 < PixelHuman> agreed 17:33 < kanzure> you're doing something wrong 17:33 < technologiclee3> lots of people with great ideas don't have the time to mess with archaic commands 17:33 < technologiclee3> i figured as much 17:35 < technologiclee3> but ya thats my point -i'm the kind of guy people assume to be a nerd before isay anything - and if i can't do it what hope is there for the rest ? ; ) 17:35 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:37 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:37 < technologiclee3> this is a killer appp and a cornerstone of the 'escape velocity ' peole want QuantumG: so I'm imagining a machine that takes co2 and hydrogen from the air, makes methane, makes amino acids, sequences dna, applies ribosomes (and has a closed loop to reproduce them) 17:38 < technologiclee3> well plants do that 17:38 < technologiclee3> and bacteria 17:39 < QuantumG> why do people always bring that up? 17:39 < QuantumG> do they think we're incapable of doing something better than nature or something? 17:40 < technologiclee3> plants and bacteria? they are successfully doing what is specified - do you have something more mechanical in mind? they are machines - sure you can do better 17:41 < QuantumG> 1. neither of them are powered by electricity.. just do that efficiently and they'll immediately be more interesting 17:41 < technologiclee3> we gotta 'boot strap' - theres some boots 17:42 < QuantumG> 2. they're terribly inefficient. They're not designed to make food, they're "designed" to reproduce, making food is a happy side-effect 17:42 < QuantumG> 3. they're fickle, require constant care and labor.. 17:43 < QuantumG> 4. they're mortal 17:43 < QuantumG> .. the list goes on 17:43 < randallagordon> they're fickle when we're trying to control them...they do quite well in the habitats they evolved in ;) 17:43 < randallagordon> (just playing devil's advocate, on the whole, I tend to agree, we can do better) 17:44 < QuantumG> we can easily outperform nature, but most people tend to think we should start from nature and improve on it.. selective breeding, genetics.. 17:45 < PixelHuman> biomimicry 17:45 < PixelHuman> I think dealing with evolved systems can work for certain cases...othertimes it's just a pain in the ass 17:45 < randallagordon> no reason to outright ignore it either...kludges evolved species may be, but kludges are useful none-the-less, even if you're learning how not to do it... 17:45 < QuantumG> the same thing happens when people design life support systems for spacecraft 17:46 < PixelHuman> how do i register a nick 17:46 < QuantumG> sensible engineers sit down with a clean sheet of paper and look for chemical and mechanical systems that can do the job 17:46 < PixelHuman> i feel like im not part of the club yet 17:46 < PixelHuman> is there a gang beating involved? 17:47 < randallagordon> that's now how things tend to work, though ;) Just look at the history of computer science, it isn't defined by the best code, it is defined by "working code" 17:47 < QuantumG> weirdo idealists seem to think some sort of portable ecosystem is required 17:47 < technologiclee3> in the nick serv 17:48 < QuantumG> to me, an ecosystem is just "we don't know how this works, but we've tuned it to work under strict operating conditions" 17:48 < technologiclee3> its like register i forget 17:49 < PixelHuman> fuck it 17:49 < technologiclee3> i think you only get beat for saying somthing undefensible - or foolish 17:49 < PixelHuman> jesus loves you 17:49 < QuantumG> /msg nickserv help 17:49 < PixelHuman> *covers face* 17:51 < PixelHuman> i'm legit 17:53 < randallagordon> Just finished actually getting caught up on what you were talking about before, QuantumG 17:53 < technologiclee3> NickServ: (notice) technologiclee2 is not registered. 17:53 < QuantumG> cool 17:54 < QuantumG> in-vitro synthesized egg white, get right on that. 17:54 < technologiclee3> as a response to /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER technologiclee2 qrkwekkrawjd 17:54 < PixelHuman> just throwing this out there 17:55 < PixelHuman> predictions on when/if singularity/human desctruction will take place? 17:55 < QuantumG> presumably you missed a step 17:55 < randallagordon> I dig the idea...although, as a foodie, don't be quick to downplay the experential aspects of food consumption...I'd immediately set to work to see how it could be applied to create novel foods...see it as just another source of ingrediants 17:55 < QuantumG> never 17:55 < technologiclee3> you could probly make egg white by the vat 17:55 < QuantumG> mmm... egg white cube 17:56 < randallagordon> hehe, Pentomlette 17:56 < technologiclee3> destruction - anyday singularity 10-20 yrs 17:57 < PixelHuman> 10? 17:57 < PixelHuman> we have an optimist amongs us 17:58 < technologiclee3> it depends on what you call the singularity - computers will only be 4 times more powerful by then with groups of them starting to = human brain computational ablitity - but as for manufacturing... it could have developed nicely by then 17:59 < technologiclee3> oh - thats 4 doublings... 17:59 < randallagordon> the existance of the hardware does not ensure the existance of the software, however ;) 18:00 < PixelHuman> @Randall 18:00 < technologiclee3> with a worldwide effort i think it could be done quite soon 18:00 < PixelHuman> yeah 18:00 < technologiclee3> riiight we are using silly programs on what we have now 18:00 < QuantumG> what's with the spaces? 18:01 < randallagordon> said software can not exist until human understanding of the subject matter exists... 18:01 < technologiclee3> me - i don't now i just type - somehow it is releavan t to what i amm thinking - but now im self consious ; ) 18:01 < randallagordon> although if one were to quantify "understanding", that certainly doesn't sit still either ;) 18:01 < kanzure> yawn 18:02 < randallagordon> I consider myself to be very optimistic saying we can *start* to look for it 30 years out, hehe 18:03 < technologiclee3> back to that question - it will happen when either it just natuarally happens - or when somones concentrated effort makes it happen with that last bit of fiddling around in the garage/lab/keystroke 18:03 < randallagordon> don't be self-conscious around here, unrestrained optimisim is an asset when paired with the ability to back it with facts 18:04 < randallagordon> I'm willing to change my mind, if you can see how to do it in 10 years, by all means, let's get it done! :) 18:04 < technologiclee3> to me the 'hyperintelligent Ais' do not define the singularity 18:05 < technologiclee3> anyone read Engines of Creation? 18:05 < PixelHuman> by drexler? yeah 18:05 < QuantumG> yeah, quality 18:05 * randallagordon feels left out...EoC is still sitting in his wishlist... 18:05 < technologiclee3> ya for some easy little short stories it sure packs a punch 18:05 * randallagordon goes to order it and get it on the way... 18:06 < QuantumG> I hadn't even heard of nanotech before I read EoC 18:06 < technologiclee3> i got one from the libray - and lost it 18:06 < QuantumG> so it completely blew my mind 18:06 < JayDugger> Randallagordon, that's available on foresight.org and on e-drexler.com 18:06 < technologiclee3> or i think someonelse lost it 18:07 < QuantumG> http://e-drexler.com/d/06/00/EOC/EOC_Table_of_Contents.html 18:07 * randallagordon still enjoys reading print books while lounging in bathtubs... 18:07 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:08 < randallagordon> I want a copy in my library so I can loan it to those who have yet to discover the internet exists... 18:08 < PixelHuman> haha 18:08 < JayDugger> Ah. 18:08 < PixelHuman> I found Age of Spiritual Machines in my Library 18:08 < QuantumG> I read it in the public reference library 18:08 < PixelHuman> my mind was blown 18:09 < kanzure> anyone know an easy way to back up a MS SQL database? 18:09 < randallagordon> Plus, I come from a family of loggers, I just really enjoy killing trees...! 18:09 < randallagordon> eh, eh? ;) 18:09 < QuantumG> .. and I went back there last year and tried to get out the one copy of EoC they had, ya know, to feel the paper that I first read it from. 18:10 < QuantumG> They told me the book was in storage and I couldn't access it 18:10 < QuantumG> .. at least not that day. 18:10 < JayDugger> kanzure, I don't know how to do that. 18:10 < PixelHuman> in "storage"? 18:10 < PixelHuman> woow 18:10 < JayDugger> Libraries don't always have their entire collection out for loan. 18:10 < PixelHuman> EoC should be showcased 18:13 < JayDugger> "A global approach to automatic solution of jigsaw puzzles." 18:13 < JayDugger> doi:10.1016/j.comgeo.2004.03/007 18:14 < kanzure> need it? 18:14 < JayDugger> Now my girlfriend and I can argue about jigsaw puzzle strategy with references! 18:14 < randallagordon> yeah, I'm no help, kanzure, I use mysql 18:14 < kanzure> randallagordon: me too 18:14 < JayDugger> Freely available, thank you, though. 18:14 < kanzure> i've inherited this problem 18:14 < randallagordon> ouch 18:15 < technologiclee3> about 2 years ago - i went down the list of books with nano in the title and ordered them all through interlibrary loan - thats when i found out that the journal papers online were the newest thing available 18:15 < randallagordon> JayDugger, sounds like you have an amazing relationship 18:15 < kanzure> you should let her decide where the pieces go. 18:15 < kanzure> just accept it :) 18:15 < kanzure> haha 18:16 < randallagordon> there are plenty of women available with whom one can maintain reasonable debate regarding jigsaw strategy 18:16 < Martyn> kanzure : http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms187510.aspx 18:16 < Martyn> microsoft has a very complete set of documentation online 18:16 < kanzure> is this for their windows-only client 18:17 < Martyn> yep 18:17 < kanzure> yep looks like it 18:17 < kanzure> what a load of shit 18:17 < JayDugger> We work on it at different times. 18:17 < Martyn> that's ms sql for you 18:17 < Martyn> but that's what you have to do 18:17 < Martyn> I use drizzle 18:17 < randallagordon> Engines of Creation, on its way 18:17 < kanzure> Martyn: i know you're lying because i have a non-MS client here that is working 18:17 < kanzure> anyway this is supposed to be SQL 18:17 < kanzure> shouldn't there be a query that does this? 18:17 < JayDugger> She places according to printed pattern compared to final image. 18:18 < randallagordon> I don't know what I would do without Amazon Prime... I <3 1-click Prime orders on used books. 18:18 < JayDugger> I place the piece by pattern and fit according to pre-existing pieces. 18:19 < Martyn> kanzure : YOU asked, and all I did was point you to documentation. I don't take kindly to being called a liar. 18:19 < Martyn> even in jest. 18:19 < kanzure> "but that's what you have to do" 18:19 < kanzure> i think that is a lie 18:19 < Martyn> Yes, as in "READ THE DOCUMENTATION" 18:19 < kanzure> that's a gui-specific page you linked me to 18:19 < Martyn> Yes, yes it is. 18:20 < kanzure> okay, so i know you're lying 18:20 < kanzure> sql is not about guis all the time 18:20 < Martyn> You know what? I'm tired of your style of conversation. 18:20 < kanzure> okay? 18:20 < randallagordon> Correct, but MS is about guis all the time... ;) 18:20 < Martyn> Have a good evening... I've got work to do. 18:20 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:20 < JayDugger> Good night, Martyn. 18:20 < kanzure> he didn't have to quit :( 18:21 < JayDugger> Time to bathe the cat. 18:21 < JayDugger> Good night, all. 18:21 < kanzure> odd time it is 18:21 < kanzure> night 18:21 < randallagordon> I take it Martyn doesn't have thick skin... 18:21 < kanzure> earlier today he was upset that i wasn't kissing up to rob carlson :/ 18:21 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:21 < kanzure> hi Martyn 18:22 < Martyn> No .. I'm not QUITE done 18:22 < Martyn> READ THE BOTTOM OF THE GOD_DAMNED_PAGE I posted 18:22 < Martyn> it shows how to do it with a transact SQL statement 18:22 < Martyn> NOW I'm done. You have a useful, non GUI solution. 18:22 -!- JayDugger [n=duggerj@pool-173-57-16-175.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #hplusroadmap [] 18:22 < Martyn> Now, see you on the 2nd, if you're coming to help build the space. Other than that, I'm not coming back on channel for a while. 18:22 < technologiclee3> our work is too important for any nonsense 18:22 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23 < randallagordon> Tact. Awesome. 18:23 < kanzure> huh? i'm so confused 18:23 < kanzure> does he hate me? 18:24 < randallagordon> Impressive display of overbearing egotism, I'd say 18:24 < kanzure> i try not to be, but sometimes i'm just an ass 18:24 < kanzure> sorry everyone 18:24 < QuantumG> someone mention my name? 18:24 < randallagordon> I took your words to be in jest, bro, I assume you were being lighthearted, anyways 18:25 < kanzure> what? 18:25 < randallagordon> " Martyn: i know you're lying because i have a non-MS client here that is working" seems to be what set him off 18:25 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:25 < kanzure> oh. i see. 18:25 < QuantumG> kanzure: you don't remember talking to me in 2007? :) 18:26 < kanzure> QuantumG: a little. i remember you made good slashdot comments. 18:26 < randallagordon> I assume you were saying that to poke fun at MS's general methodology, or something along those lines, anyways... 18:27 < kanzure> actually no, i really do have a gui over here that is not made by microsoft 18:27 < PixelHuman> i leave for 4 min and a fight breaks out 18:27 < PixelHuman> *sigh* we're all doomed 18:27 < QuantumG> "Hey there. I was going to reply to your post via Slashdot, but decided a private response may be better." Jun 25, 2007 18:27 < kanzure> was that me or you, QuantumG ? 18:27 < QuantumG> you 18:27 < kanzure> ouch. i probably was an ass 18:27 < technologiclee3> riiiight! 18:28 < technologiclee3> oh Pixel not kanzure 18:28 < QuantumG> nah, we were talking about controlling inertia and other junk 18:29 < kanzure> so it looks like MS SQL has a "BACKUP" command, but it can only backup to disk or to tape 18:29 -!- zancas [n=zancas@dsl092-134-109.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29 < technologiclee3> welll i'm always talking about the software to make the hardware - or anything else 18:30 < technologiclee3> but back to the web communication thing 18:30 < kanzure> maybe i can back it up on to the ftp server 18:31 < kanzure> oh wait they are different physical servers. 18:31 < PixelHuman> I think i'm just going to just hang out in an island for a few decades 18:32 < PixelHuman> i'll come back when the sing is upon us 18:32 < PixelHuman> maybe i'll let it come to me 18:32 < technologiclee3> for example i have a stupid question right now about is there a way to pick up on a chatroom where you left off or doy you always scroll back up to where you were - but i would never ask that without googling first - and so say we are lloking for some answer to somthing we end up cuat and pasting links that the other people go open.... totally ineffecient 18:33 < randallagordon> technologiclee3, leave your client open and log 18:34 < kanzure> yeah i'm surprised not many of us in here use "screen" 18:34 < technologiclee3> but i mean if i wake up and there has been activity and the client has been open for days i have to go find the last thing i read - i just want to put a 'bookmark' and go to that last read part 18:34 < technologiclee3> screen? 18:34 < randallagordon> I need to give it a shot one of these days...I was talking with a fellow Palm Pre user that uses screen to keep up with his IM accounts via Finch 18:34 < kanzure> to do that you can just scroll up a bit and let the window accumulate a buffer. your scroll position doesn't change 18:35 < randallagordon> you can also do nifty things with regex to setup notifications, such as when your nick gets mentioned 18:35 < technologiclee3> ahhhh ya thats what i had thought but i thought it didn't work once or twice - i probly forgot to scroll up 18:36 < kanzure> randallagordon: i had the batman theme playing for a while whenever my nick was mentioned. i didn't let that last long. 18:36 < randallagordon> haha, wow, yeah...no doubt 18:37 < technologiclee3> ok so what do yall do about being in here and keeping up with emails as they come in? and fb 18:37 < technologiclee3> i know you can tile programs 18:37 < kanzure> facebook is lame 18:37 < PixelHuman> hey everyone im going to leave now 18:37 < PixelHuman> it was nice hanging out 18:37 < PixelHuman> it was like h+ summit all over again 18:37 < PixelHuman> Have a happy new year 18:37 < PixelHuman> see you in the future! 18:37 < technologiclee3> ya but fb is brining people together in groups like nothing else 18:38 < technologiclee3> l8r Pixel 18:38 < randallagordon> fb is impossible to ignore at this point...it is practically more useful than email 18:38 < randallagordon> have a good one PixelHuman 18:39 < technologiclee3> they are very sililar since i let them email about everything - but sometimes i find out in gmail before fb 18:39 < randallagordon> ...and I really hate to have to admit that about fb...oh how I do...but at nearly 400 million users, many of which don't even recognize email as a form of communication beyond signing up for fb in the first place, it has major power to connect people 18:40 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:40 -!- PixelHuman [n=edwinros@ip65-46-14-94.z14-46-65.customer.algx.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40 < technologiclee3> ahhh i think its great but it could be better - and i mean that in the most opportunistic way 18:41 < randallagordon> If you have a 21"+ widescreen, generally it becomes easier to simply "stack" windows...I used to be a stickler for maximizing all my windows, but since some designers have yet to determine that fluid layouts and widescreen monitors don't play nice, that doesn't work well anymore... 18:42 < technologiclee3> i had dual screen for a moment - gotta wait for Lucid to catch up 18:42 < technologiclee3> but the principle is how many programs/ windows does it take to stay connected? 18:42 < QuantumG> dude, spaces, what's with them? 18:42 < randallagordon> I want a 4x21" portrait array stacked on a 2x30" landscape array :D 18:43 < randallagordon> as many as it takes ;) 18:43 < technologiclee3> for all the social networking stuff - i has the yoono firefox sidebar - it does facebook, myspace, twitter freindfeed and more 18:43 < randallagordon> It is like languages, how many different languages do you need to know to get your job done? Depends on where you're working... 18:43 < technologiclee3> i don't know it just happens 18:43 < technologiclee3> its not like i'm shouting 18:44 < randallagordon> I use Pidgin to keep my IM networks in order 18:44 < randallagordon> That helps 18:44 < randallagordon> I cross between the development and design worlds regularly, so I end up using basically every communications network out there 18:44 < randallagordon> it gets hectic 18:44 < technologiclee3> oh well it's not a major concern - but there is room for improvement 18:45 < technologiclee3> how does pidgen do social netw? 18:45 < kanzure> it does not 18:45 < technologiclee3> ohhh IM nets 18:46 < randallagordon> Google Talk and email are my preferences for communication, but I also have contacts on all the major IM networks, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, I still have an active ICQ account, heh... 18:46 < kanzure> yep 18:46 < technologiclee3> yoono does all that - maybe not voice 18:46 < randallagordon> Pidgin can now work with most of the social networking sites for updating status and chat 18:47 < technologiclee3> i saw a updafe fb , MySpace from gchat 18:47 < kanzure> ah, didn't know pidgin does that 18:47 < technologiclee3> if i could get irc in yoono ... 18:49 < randallagordon> I use Gmail for email and the rest of Google's PIM services (Conctacs, Calendar, Tasks, etc.), HydraIRC for IRC (whee!), Pidgin for IM/chat, TweetDeck for twitter, Ping.fm for status updates, Posterous and WordPress for longer stuff... 18:49 < technologiclee3> back to one of my points so i'm surfing along and then i'm in here then i go look at a paper and it is switching between programs fien i can alt+tab in circles all day - but i want 1 tool 18:49 < randallagordon> ...I think that covers the core of my communications 18:49 < randallagordon> oh, and Skype, of course...can't leave out Skype anymore, either 18:49 < randallagordon> (as much as I would love to) 18:50 < randallagordon> Then I use Chrome as my main browser, leaving tabs with Gmail, iGoogle with various gadgets and Facebook open in tabs all the time 18:51 < randallagordon> and increasingly, Wave 18:51 < technologiclee3> i got skype on FB - can't tell if it works 18:51 < randallagordon> eh...you can install a "call me" button/gadget/thing 18:51 < randallagordon> but you still need client software...I'm not aware of a Flash client anyways... 18:52 < technologiclee3> i tried to get some people on wave - nothing going on there for me yet - and it totally does not mesh with email - and i but a bunch of wave bots - can't tell if theyre doing anything 18:52 < randallagordon> heh, bots are mostly annoying 18:52 < randallagordon> Wave rocks if you have a purpose for it 18:52 -!- genehacker [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:53 < randallagordon> Otherwise it is mostly useless, heh 18:53 < technologiclee3> oh ya i'm using firefox and opera because of different features - and sometimes videos 18:53 < randallagordon> I use it with my business partners to keep organized 18:53 < randallagordon> Chrome ftw 18:53 < randallagordon> I've been a diehard FF fan, but Chrome just slaughters it 18:54 < technologiclee3> randallagordon: ya just search for skype on Fb and theres the app - i don't know if it needs the program i have it also tho 18:54 < randallagordon> (although I can't speak for Chrome on Linux, I have yet to try it) 18:55 < randallagordon> I'm just finding their Page, and a bunch of "call me" type things 18:55 < randallagordon> which all reek of data mining 18:55 < technologiclee3> i've been meaning to try it - yall wait right here - i'll be back ; ) 18:56 < technologiclee3> ya - it's downloading - and painless too 18:57 < technologiclee3> the whole net is data mining - might as well get some use out of it 18:57 < randallagordon> heh, yeah, but when you allow a Fb app, they get access to a good bit of power ;) 18:58 < technologiclee3> i don't like or use any of that stuff - back to the BetterThan FB site i was advocating... 19:00 < technologiclee3> ok FF, opera and chrome which seems to have made itself the deafult after 2 'no's 19:01 < technologiclee3> yep i missed emails while in here - ... 19:02 < randallagordon> Do you have an older computer? 19:02 < randallagordon> You're running Unbuntu, yeah? 19:03 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 19:04 < technologiclee3> i would say back to work - but there have been some on the Open manu list that think we could use a better medium of communication and i agree - email is effective . but also limiting - like i wanted to reply to 2 different points in 2 posts in one tread - which means either 2 emails - or cutting and pasting from 2 posts.. and even here the conversation is linear - it would be easier if i could post a comment to any comment and the users see 19:05 < technologiclee3> fairly new Dual core amd 3.2Ghz 8Gb ram never had windows for a second all ubuntu all the way - ya 19:05 < kanzure> i don't know if it's worth mentioning ted nelson 19:05 < randallagordon> Just leave your browser running 19:05 < randallagordon> That machine can multitask like a madman 19:06 < randallagordon> I keep all of the software I mentioned before, and more, running simultaneously pretty much 24/7 19:07 < randallagordon> Then you can get your notifications of new email and such, all the time 19:07 < randallagordon> ...just make sure not to go overboard, you have to then learn when to shut it all off ;) 19:08 < technologiclee3> well ya but i've got 3 open now - but back to my point say i have the terminal open (with tabs inside) and then the netbeans IDE and then i'm whining to kanzure in here about an error and looking at a broser to Pastebin and then theres some emails and a good link in FB - thats all the screen(s) - ok 2 could doit - and my best hope is a blinking icon in fb to notify me i'm missing another chat - 1 need some tool consol 19:09 < randallagordon> That's just the state of the technology ;) 19:09 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/inspiration/notstevebutjoe/IMG_0872.JPG 19:09 < randallagordon> There are an insane number of different solutions, you just have to find what works for you 19:09 < randallagordon> That looks like my college dorm, hehe 19:10 < randallagordon> I ran 3 17"s, my roomie 2x21"s and a 19" 19:10 < kanzure> i was running 5 off one box at one point 19:10 < randallagordon> ...we were notorious for killing the breaker, hehe 19:10 < randallagordon> had to turn off monitors in order to use the microwave 19:10 -!- jrutherford [n=chatzill@cpe-24-27-51-109.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:10 < technologiclee3> i had 78 tabs in FF earlier and a host of pdfs open - and the ide irc terminal and i try to shut off the things i'm done with before i lock up the computer but that is just how i get the most out of it - ya so i'm seeing what other 'power users' are doing and looking to the next - step - oh i enjoy it all - i just wanna push myself further 19:11 < kanzure> stop using firefox 19:11 < kanzure> has opera been kind to you? 19:11 < randallagordon> FF eats memory for lunch 19:11 < technologiclee3> hahaha - ya the octopus getting hot with all the current 19:11 < randallagordon> but you do have 8GB of mem ;) 19:11 < kanzure> randallagordon: i've been able to do 400 tabs easily with opera 19:11 < jrutherford> Hey. Just stopped by for a bit to say hi. 19:11 < kanzure> so i recommended that lee try it out and get rid of opera 19:11 < kanzure> hi there 19:12 < randallagordon> very nice 19:12 < kanzure> er 19:12 < kanzure> get rid of firefox 19:12 < randallagordon> have you tried Chrome? I love it on Win, but haven't used it on other platforms 19:12 < technologiclee3> ya - but i needed to watch vids and it wasnt happening but i think that might be fixed Pidgen is opening the links in FF so im kinda leaning on it still - and theres no google preview in opera - but ya i like it 19:13 < technologiclee3> ya - went hungra a bit to get that - worth it! 19:13 < kanzure> i'm sure there's a greasemonkey script for "google preview" (whatever that is) 19:13 < technologiclee3> see litle previews of the webpages in google search 19:13 < kanzure> i wrote a script once to automatically scroll through google search results and you'd just sit there typing down numbers that you want opened up in tabs 19:14 < kanzure> see it in action: http://heybryan.org/shots/June12th02007_Firefox_interface.wmv 19:14 < randallagordon> wmv!? :P 19:15 < kanzure> sorry :( 19:15 < randallagordon> Where's the Ogg love? ;) 19:15 < kanzure> i was young and clueless 19:15 < jrutherford> I prefer FLV... :-) 19:15 -!- genehacker [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:16 < kanzure> anyway a good improvement that i want to eventually do 19:16 < kanzure> is one where it analyzes the keywords on the pages that i select 19:16 < kanzure> and appends extra google search results (for those keywords) in the queue of pages to select' 19:16 < kanzure> plus a pause key and so on 19:16 < randallagordon> gawd, I'd never get anything done 19:17 < randallagordon> I try to limit myself to 30 tabs :P 19:17 < kanzure> randallagordon: i wrote the "book" on "extreme power-user browsing with thousands of tabs" 19:17 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/projects/browsehack/tabtabtab.html 19:18 < jrutherford> Well... I'm gonna take off... if I don't hear from you between now and then... I'll see you on Saturday at the meeting. 19:18 < kanzure> checkout the tab addiction: http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-01-21_coincidences.png 19:18 < kanzure> jrutherford: okay, see you :) 19:18 -!- jrutherford [n=chatzill@cpe-24-27-51-109.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 19:19 < technologiclee3> at this point i would benifit from my search knowing what i have seen before and liked and what was not relavent 19:19 < kanzure> sure, user preference modeling 19:20 < kanzure> technologiclee3: did you see the paper on the semantic search facilitator? 19:20 < kanzure> technologiclee3: http://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/InBCT_May_2004.html 19:20 < technologiclee3> and if it would find pages that cite papers that have been liked - um no? 19:22 < technologiclee3> i used to listen to papers with Sayz Me on windows - i just got a text to speech on ubuntu but i cant find it 19:22 < technologiclee3> festival 19:24 -!- Netsplit pratchett.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: kristianpaul 19:24 -!- Netsplit pratchett.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: strages, Trooem, Phreedom 19:26 -!- Netsplit over, joins: kristianpaul 19:26 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:26 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27 < randallagordon> Yeah, I'd go nuts with tabs everywhere 19:27 < randallagordon> I just keep well-tagged bookmarks and call it good 19:28 < kanzure> i got annoyed when my bookmarking clients started to crash with more than 15,000 bookmarks 19:28 < randallagordon> I use Google Bookmarks 19:29 < technologiclee3> i can not seem to find anything in bookmarks or history either - maybe if they were searchable - 19:30 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:30 < randallagordon> well, if you're okay with that whole data mining thing, Google History is useful 19:30 < QuantumG> I have no idea what firefox's "search" box in bookmarks actually searches 19:30 < technologiclee3> is that an addon? 19:30 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:30 < randallagordon> (yes, I tend to use a lot of Google services, if it isn't already obvious) 19:30 < QuantumG> probably just the url + title 19:31 < technologiclee3> they have my hitory anyway - might as well let the user use it 19:31 < randallagordon> Yeah, but this moves it from being "anonymous" to being tied to your Google Account ;) 19:32 < technologiclee3> i used Foxmarks/ xmarks for a while - sometimes it would slow or crash things while 'synchronizing' 19:32 < kanzure> i use flatfile bookmarks now. 19:32 < technologiclee3> if they see me go to my email - im sure they know it is me searching 19:33 < randallagordon> I end up using too many machines which are not my own, so I prefer cloud based solutions 19:33 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:33 < randallagordon> but, only if they're based on open standards and the data can be exported 19:33 < kanzure> *cough* which you can't do with your google history, for instance 19:33 < randallagordon> hence, I dig Google 19:33 < kanzure> i need to eventually write a scraper 19:33 < randallagordon> Eh, yeah you can 19:33 < kanzure> uh? where 19:33 < kanzure> i want my search history exported 19:33 < randallagordon> there's an xml export 19:34 * kanzure checks 19:34 < kanzure> on here? http://www.google.com/history/ 19:34 < kanzure> where? 19:34 < randallagordon> http://www.google.com/history/lookup?q=&output=rss&num=1000 19:35 < randallagordon> RSS, specifically...I'd imagine you could use atom too 19:35 < technologiclee3> i try to use all of googles products - i have my calendar and reader in my gmail - i can send sms from gchat - i use igoogle - i have google calendar on my fb 19:35 < randallagordon> granted, not well publicised ;) 19:35 < kanzure> doesn't look like it can support 30k at once. hrm 19:36 < QuantumG> for a while, google had this cool table app in labs 19:36 < QuantumG> it was like google sets 19:36 < kanzure> max of 5k 19:36 < technologiclee3> haha! sweet 19:36 < QuantumG> but with tables 19:36 < technologiclee3> they stiopped labs - i liked it i want another one 19:37 < randallagordon> stopped labs? 19:37 < QuantumG> so you'd put in country names in the first column, and capitals in the second column and it would extend the table 19:37 < randallagordon> yeah, I tinkered with it a bit QuantumG, it rocked 19:37 < technologiclee3> ya i don't think anyone can start using google - oh wait i mean notebook 19:38 < randallagordon> ahhh 19:38 < randallagordon> Notebook rocked 19:38 < kanzure> randallagordon: how did you know about the "num" parameter? 19:38 < randallagordon> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Google+History+export ;) 19:39 < technologiclee3> i found several igoogle widgets that link it to other services like twitter and all - but it also has one for EyeOs which is an 'online desktop that i use to open igoogle in again... youOS was better but is gone 19:39 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:39 < randallagordon> wb Aliks 19:39 < Aliks> ty 19:39 < Aliks> whats up 19:40 < kanzure> trying to scrape 30k searches from google.com/history 19:40 < technologiclee3> that was funny - i google stuff for people and they are like WOW 19:41 < randallagordon> hehe I love lmgtfy 19:42 < technologiclee3> thats why i try not to ask questions that i haven't tried to find the answer to , but you guys have some good stuff, that i don't think i would find 19:42 < technologiclee3> your like filtered content 19:44 < technologiclee3> welll - does anyone know where festival is in ubuntu after i installedit - i did a trivial search (suuure) 19:46 < randallagordon> thats precisely why Google is all over realtime search re: twitter/facebook...people have learned that going to their social network to get something answered is faster than Google alone... 19:46 -!- Netsplit pratchett.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Phreedom 19:47 < randallagordon> at least until you piss everyone off and they stop talking to you ;) 19:47 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Phreedom 19:47 < technologiclee3> i ask as the - let me get that for you ' for my less technical freinds - but recencly i saw a web dev ask where a store was in the city - and i smirked 19:47 < technologiclee3> act* 19:48 < kanzure> wtf i really don't have a mouse? 19:48 * kanzure looks 19:48 < randallagordon> Aye, for most factual stuff, a quick Google search is far faster than asking someone... 19:48 < randallagordon> Procedural and opinion data, however, social networks shine 19:49 < technologiclee3> its about 1 doing the search 2 knowing how to choose the keywords 3 persitance - i see why my festival search failed - the work festival is like party - not like libwhatever which only means that one specific thing - so now i know 19:50 < randallagordon> yeah, I'm not much help...I'm probably one of the few people here who still rely on Windows, heh 19:51 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-63-155.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:51 < randallagordon> unfortunately I rely on two of Linux's big downfalls...the ability to run Adobe's entire Creative Suite and I just refuse to deal with the ninty million possible configurations with the various audio stacks 19:52 < technologiclee3> i guess i would - but windows lost the touchpad on my new laptop - ok it happens i guess - but on their forums they said it was not thier fault - so i took the bit of linux i got from my CS classes - and an easy to install Ubuntu Live cd and went for it - and then the whole idea of open source made it a principle kind of thing 19:52 < randallagordon> although I'd love to fix the latter issue with carefully selected hardware and run Ardour 19:53 < technologiclee3> you could dual boot...... zero synergy but all that extra software - Ubuntu Studio has some nice stuff 19:53 < randallagordon> but unfortunately the ball is mostly in Adobe's court for the former issue...and I just refuse to use Apple products on principal :P 19:53 < randallagordon> I virtualize 19:54 < randallagordon> I've got an Ubuntu install running all the time in VirtualBox 19:54 < technologiclee3> ya apple does not applea to me for their business practices 19:54 < randallagordon> Control is no bueño... 19:54 < technologiclee3> cool -- what do you need adobe for? 19:54 < randallagordon> I do graphics design for a living 19:54 < randallagordon> I just leave Illustrator, Photoshop and InDesign running...and more and more often I find myself in After Effects creating motion graphics 19:56 < technologiclee3> cool - after making web pages for people i discovered that i was not a graphic designer and realized the need to work with them 19:57 < technologiclee3> are you still having alea problems? 19:57 < technologiclee3> algea* 19:57 < technologiclee3> ironicly there are people on the list trying to grow algea 19:58 < randallagordon> hehe, yeah 19:58 < randallagordon> I haven't really tried to find any solutions, however 19:58 < technologiclee3> maybe it can be part of the system 19:59 < randallagordon> with aquaponic systems, it is 20:00 < randallagordon> at the moment, though, I just don't have the time to devote...the system is running and growing food, I'll have to learn more and start more improvements a few months from now 20:01 < randallagordon> I set up the system because I'm working with a friend to setup a niche LED lighting retail business, we're importing the lights that I'm using in that setup 20:01 < technologiclee3> thats more that the vast majority can say 20:01 < randallagordon> We're looking at buying a warehouse, at which point I intend to setup proper lab space and do controlled trials 20:02 < randallagordon> I want to explore some of the science NASA has done re: LEDs for horticulture as a starting point, then explore some ideas of my own 20:02 < technologiclee3> alright! 20:02 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:05 < randallagordon> also hoping to carve out a section potentially for a hackerspace type of setup, so I have a route to explore ideas for blending open source with profitable ventures, but that's a touchy subject I intend to take great care with, my intent is to find ways to make capitalism work for all involved, as is the proper intent of a free market 20:06 < randallagordon> I recently picked up forkcapitalism.com as an outlet for said ideas 20:09 < technologiclee3> so is it for selling food to sell? 20:10 < technologiclee3> growing* 20:10 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:13 < randallagordon> just personal use at this point 20:13 < randallagordon> I do have several ideas to apply back to commercial applications 20:13 < randallagordon> namely, I want to see the community supported agriculture idea moved into the 21st century, so I can order locally grown foods as I would any other good via the internet 20:14 < randallagordon> I'm thinking that CSA style markets are better suited for internet sales than the traditional agribusiness model, anyways 20:14 < randallagordon> the people involved are already attuned to thinking in a distributed manner 20:15 < randallagordon> for instance, how could would it be to have a webcam setup in a Controlled Environment Agriculture, CEA, farm so that you can literally watch YOUR head of lettuce grow up? 20:15 < randallagordon> er...how cool, lol 20:16 < technologiclee3> peopel want clean food - they would love to see 'their tomato' 20:16 < randallagordon> There are already a couple projects launched, I'm graced to be located very near one such internet based CSA startup, but they're fairly basic with what they provide...having grown up using the internet, I know what is possible, so my ideas tend to be...large in scope. 20:17 < Phreedom> randallagordon: having grown up not really using internet I really fear to lose it :) 20:17 < technologiclee3> the answer is festival runs from tha command line - a little clunk but it will work for now - all it need it to be tied to the right click... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLO4Ufmc84 20:17 < Phreedom> offtopic I know 20:17 < Phreedom> disregard me :) 20:18 < randallagordon> Plus, I take issue with some of the people who take organic farming to religion levels and forsake the science that gave birth to the philosophy in the first place...so I want to get involved with changing minds on that front, showing that GE foods aren't inherently evil, they just require due diligence 20:19 < randallagordon> Phreedom, fear losing...the internet? 20:20 < randallagordon> heh, the wallpaper in that video is eerily similar to a photo I took of a leaf sitting on a mossy rock 20:20 < technologiclee3> arguably most cultivated food is geneticly modified thru selection if nothing else - it's when they are altered to make pesticide that i wonder - and since there is no labeling - we do not know the effects 20:21 < randallagordon> lots of plants naturally make pesticides 20:21 < randallagordon> a good portion of the food we eat is "naturally" toxic...take potatoes for example 20:22 < technologiclee3> i think each home should grow food - i saw a lille windowsill greenhouse built into the house - in the kitchen - and the residents wanted to remove it in a remodel ! 20:22 < randallagordon> essentially, there are far bigger problems to fear than GE 20:22 < randallagordon> GE is just one tool in the toolbox 20:22 < randallagordon> as do I, at least grow what they can 20:23 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23 < randallagordon> make better use of the space we have in general 20:24 < technologiclee3> nothing like fresh herbs - so what is your business model at this point - grow food sell food locally? 20:24 < randallagordon> import and sell LED lighting fixtures, eventually using the proceeds for proper R&D and engineering of our own products 20:25 < technologiclee3> i met someone with a commecrial greenhouse with tomatoes - had some problems with bugs and such 20:25 < technologiclee3> you might want to check out - malcom beck 20:25 < randallagordon> I'm also a photographer, so I intend to LED lighting products...continuous lighting as low-heat alternative to halogen/tungsten 20:27 < randallagordon> intend to *create* 20:27 < technologiclee3> here is one book - looking for his site - he started with nothing and made millions doing compost 20:27 < randallagordon> wow, I'm missing a lot of words tonight, lol 20:27 < technologiclee3> typing is so archaic 20:28 < randallagordon> writing is worse :P 20:28 < randallagordon> and talking gets overheard too easily 20:29 < technologiclee3> i think this is him - his page might be down - hes pretty old now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfnvnhQXbOQ 20:30 < technologiclee3> this is him for sure - i saw him speak at A&M and visited his garden/ composting facility in san antonio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggBjmO9zTlU&feature=related 20:31 < technologiclee3> i had subsribed to my google history and saw my searches - but it says the feed can not be found - maybe it will kick in later 20:32 < technologiclee3> the brain machine interfaces are coming along nicely 20:34 < randallagordon> indeed 20:37 < genehacker> wellthere are still some problems 20:37 < genehacker> the photonic approach is getting some where --- Log closed Mon Dec 28 20:45:18 2009 --- Log opened Mon Dec 28 20:45:22 2009 20:45 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@dhcp-84-36.me.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:45 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 36 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 36 normal] 20:46 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 77 secs 20:47 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit ["leaving"] 20:50 < kanzure> Reversal of RNA Dominance by Displacement of Protein Sequestered on Triplet Repeat RNA http://designfiles.org/papers/Reversal%20of%20RNA%20Dominance%20by%20Displacement%20of%20Protein%20Sequestered%20on%20Triplet%20Repeat%20RNA.pdf 20:50 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:50 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:50 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:51 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56 < genehacker> is there a #python? 20:57 < kanzure> yes 20:57 < genehacker> argh can't join 20:57 < kanzure> it's ##python 20:57 < kanzure> woops my bad 20:57 < kanzure> just #python 20:58 < genehacker> having trouble installing sympy 20:58 < kanzure> what's wrong? 20:59 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:00 < genehacker> huh 21:00 < genehacker> I might have installed 21:01 < genehacker> how do I test? 21:01 -!- areyna3 [n=chatzill@75-1-75-31.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:02 < genehacker> nvm, I'll figure it out 21:08 < kanzure> hey areyna3 21:08 < kanzure> welcome back 21:08 < randallagordon> Note to self, do *not* jump on the Wii Balance Board...you get bitched at by cute on screen characters. 21:09 < QuantumG> Rumor has it that all Interorbital Systems next generation hardware is fake - made from cardboard and foam. Police/FBI & News/Wired called. 21:10 < kanzure> how do i stop latex from puking all over my directory 21:11 < randallagordon> Use only genuine Trojan brand latex 21:11 < kanzure> randallagordon: LaTeX 21:11 < randallagordon> hehe, I know, I'm just being an ass ;) 21:11 < kanzure> please don't make latex+ass jokes. 21:12 < kanzure> (actually i don't care. but still.) 21:16 < kanzure> hm http://www.partnerup.com/Property/US/CA/000068/Prime-Santa-Monica-Commercial-Space-Santa-Monica-CA/ 21:18 < QuantumG> Former home of Rand Corporation. 21:18 < kanzure> neat 21:19 < QuantumG> cool, so there's probably virgins and christian babies in the drywall 21:20 < randallagordon> Nah, they're up front about it, they're just right over in that closet on the left. 21:20 < kanzure> :) 21:22 < QuantumG> we'd remove them but it will cause the building to return to from-whence-it-came 21:23 < randallagordon> And that would invalidate the lease, so we'll try to avoid that 21:23 < randallagordon> ...we do want your check at the end of the month, after all. 21:24 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: areyna3, branstrom, technologiclee3 21:31 -!- areyna3 [n=chatzill@75-1-75-31.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:34 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:34 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:47 < randallagordon> Wii Fit Plus is kicking my ass... 21:48 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: technologiclee3, branstrom 22:03 -!- areyna3 [n=chatzill@75-1-75-31.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:05 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:06 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:06 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: technologiclee3, branstrom 22:23 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:23 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:23 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:24 < Aliks> this disconnection thing is becoming soooo irritating.. gonna have to try that HyperIRC thing somebody mentioned 22:27 < QuantumG> http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2009/11/ibms-claim-to-have-simulated-cats-brain.html 22:40 < kanzure> QuantumG: meh, they just scaled up an ANN 22:41 < QuantumG> the actual announcement was simply that they were simulating a nice big ANN based on the neocortical column of a cat. 22:41 < QuantumG> and that they had no results yet 22:48 < randallagordon> Aliks, HydraIRC 22:51 < QuantumG> use that client and you're headed for multiple disaster 22:54 < randallagordon> oh? 22:54 < QuantumG> multiple headed disaster 22:55 < randallagordon> I've not had any issues with it 22:55 < QuantumG> sigh 22:56 < randallagordon> what precisely is wrong with it, if I might ask? 22:57 < randallagordon> it has been many years since I actively used IRC, back then I stuck with mIRC...Hydra seemed to be a good alternative 22:57 < QuantumG> never mind 22:57 < kanzure> hydra, multiple heads 22:57 < randallagordon> or are you simply making a linguistic joke? 23:00 < QuantumG> http://www.iconaircraft.com/ 23:02 < QuantumG> how to make a plane that looks as ugly as a helicopter 23:02 < randallagordon> apparently I assumed too much for thinking you were being clever *and* had a point ;) 23:02 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:03 < randallagordon> quite interesting 23:04 < QuantumG> they certainly know their market 23:05 < QuantumG> the amphibious capability really does suggest "you'd spend $139k on a boat, why not a flying boat?" 23:08 < randallagordon> indeed 23:08 < randallagordon> I'd be interested if there were space for passengers, heh 23:08 < randallagordon> (beyond one other) 23:09 < QuantumG> nah, its 2 seater 23:09 < QuantumG> http://www.iconaircraft.com/specifications-and-features.html 23:10 < randallagordon> Quite nifty though...be awesome to fly up into mountain lakes and chill for a weekend, heh 23:11 < QuantumG> so long as they were under 300 nautical miles away 23:11 < QuantumG> and there was fuel up there, otherwise, 150 :) 23:12 < randallagordon> easy enough around here 23:13 < QuantumG> first deliveries expected in 2011 23:13 < randallagordon> pump gas, too...that's awesome 23:15 < randallagordon> now I just need the SUV modification and I'm set... ;) 23:16 < randallagordon> really though, I'd have no problem justifying the expense of one of those puppies if it were also road driveable from the airport to home...I can only imagine such a beast is a short period away from reality... 23:17 < randallagordon> although I suppose if I can afford the plane, I can afford to leave another vehical parked in the hangar... 23:18 < randallagordon> so, maybe just the "sedan" version, and I'll be happy... ;) 23:20 < QuantumG> bah, as I said, people spend that much on a boat or a caravan 23:20 < QuantumG> those jetskis in the video are not exactly cheap either 23:24 < ybit> kanzure: what exactly is going on in the june12th2007 wmv? that's the first time i've seen that, ever 23:28 < kanzure> it's a search tool 23:28 < kanzure> basically it auto-scrolls through google search results 23:28 < kanzure> you type in numbers to select the results, and they are converted into tabs 23:28 < ybit> and lists something out to the side 23:28 < ybit> ah 23:28 < kanzure> i was using a vertical tab bar 23:31 < Aliks> hey QuantumG where does your name come from? 23:31 < Aliks> Quantum Gravity or Quantum Generations the book? 23:31 < QuantumG> neither 23:31 < kanzure> you forgot the obvious option: quantum gravy 23:31 < Aliks> lol 23:31 < QuantumG> mmm.. gravy 23:31 < kanzure> see 23:31 < QuantumG> it was an in-joke around '98 23:31 < kanzure> "yo dawg i heard you like gravy so i put some quantum gravy on your quantum quarks" 23:31 < QuantumG> before then I was just Quantum 23:32 * Aliks nods. 23:32 < QuantumG> and a mate of mine would finish every sentence with G. 23:32 < Aliks> BTW incase anyone hasnt read it, Quantum Generations is a pretty good book if you're interested in the history of physics 23:32 < kanzure> does anyone have opinions on pete estep's commentary on SENS? http://www.technologyreview.com/article/17146/ 23:33 < Aliks> isnt he the anti-sens guy? 23:34 < kanzure> yes 23:34 < Aliks> "Direct contradiction of key claims by much available and generally accepted evidence." I like that he doesnt state what "generally accepted evidence" that would be 23:35 < Aliks> YES! my edit on wikipedia still stands! 23:35 < Aliks> "This currently irreversible series of changes inevitably ends in death. " 23:35 < Aliks> I added the currently 23:35 < Aliks> in the article on aging 23:35 < QuantumG> 1. wtf is SENS 23:35 < Aliks> SENS = Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence 23:35 < Aliks> wiki it 23:35 < Aliks> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategies_for_Engineered_Negligible_Senescence 23:36 < kanzure> Lenny Guarente? 23:36 < kanzure> David SInclair, Judy Campisi, Cynthia Keynon, Bruce Ames? 23:36 < kanzure> hrm 23:36 < kanzure> need to stalk them 23:38 -!- Iocus [n=opera@24.42.127.171] has left #hplusroadmap [] 23:38 < Aliks> Yeah I agree with TR's assessment basically 23:38 < Aliks> I mean, they were pretty fair about it 23:39 < Aliks> the science isnt there yet to actually DO the work... but that doesnt mean it's wrong in theory 23:39 < kanzure> the technology review article sucks 23:39 < kanzure> it doesn't actually list any of their complaints about SENS 23:39 < QuantumG> the wikipedia article is better 23:40 < Aliks> agreed 23:40 < QuantumG> (and that's saying something) 23:40 < kanzure> heh 23:40 < Aliks> well I think as intelligent, semi-informed people we can all come to our own conclusion about SENS without TR's help 23:40 < Aliks> I mean, it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that in theory, life extension is possible 23:40 < QuantumG> but hey, the fact that De Grey's suggestions for future research are a little "out there" is irrelevant 23:41 < Aliks> On Oct. 9, 1903, the New York Times wrote: 23:41 < Aliks> "The flying machine which will really fly might be evolved by the combined and continuous efforts of mathematicians and mechanicians in from one million to ten million years." 23:41 < Aliks> On the same day, on Kill Devil Hill, N.C., in his diary, a bicycle mechanic named Orville Wright wrote: 23:41 < Aliks> "We unpacked rest of goods for new machine." 23:41 < QuantumG> De Grey's point is that geriatric medical research should be focused on the prevention and eventual elimination of aging. 23:41 < QuantumG> people who say "but that'd be terrible" are welcome to die 23:42 < Aliks> (Also note that these days somebody like Wright would be shouted down as "a complete amateur with no education in the field", be denied any research money, etc. ) 23:43 < kanzure> can anyone find an article called "the pseudoscience of strategies for engineered negligable senescence" ? 23:43 < QuantumG> ya mean like how people constantly troll me on Slashdot about how Elon Musk is an amateur? (although 90% of them can't spell amateur) 23:43 < Aliks> lol 23:43 < Aliks> right 23:44 < kanzure> ah here we go 23:44 < kanzure> http://www.technologyreview.com/sens/docs/estepetal.pdf 23:44 < randallagordon> Wait, you mean he isn't an armature? 23:44 < Aliks> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_quantum_mechanics, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_particle_physics interesting links 23:44 < Aliks> randallagordon, I think the diff is in how they mean "amateur" 23:44 < QuantumG> amature is the most common misspelling 23:44 < Aliks> when most people say "amateur" they really mean "unskilled" 23:45 < randallagordon> I was making a bad joke ;) 23:45 < Aliks> lol ok 23:45 < Aliks> I get it 23:45 < Aliks> now I see the misspelling 23:45 < QuantumG> ironically a-mature is pretty close to what they are trying to accuse his company of being. 23:45 < randallagordon> I'm guilty of spelling it amature constantly... 23:45 < randallagordon> But I can't spell to save my life 23:46 < Aliks> QuantumG, my take on it is, if the critics can't build their own rocket, don't criticize the people that can 23:46 < Aliks> lol 23:46 < randallagordon> But, but! Armchair science isn't really science! 23:46 < randallagordon> Those who say it can't be done should be careful not to interrupt those who are already doing it. 23:47 < Aliks> I love how people who criticize even things like evolution for example, could not explain the theory in even the most simple outline 23:47 < randallagordon> That would require effort 23:47 < Aliks> yep 23:47 < Aliks> I'm leaning toward the "extermination" method of dealing with them lol 23:47 < QuantumG> nah, see, typically the discussion is about NASA vs SpaceX .. which, of course, is actually more like LockMart vs SpaceX 23:47 * Aliks nods. 23:49 < QuantumG> so yes it is unfair.. but it is unfair like pointing out flaws in a Mazda and comparing it to a BMW. 23:49 < kanzure> to protect the world from devistation 23:49 < QuantumG> "But I can spend more to get something better!!!" thanks for that. 23:49 < kanzure> to unite all people within our nation 23:49 < Aliks> right 23:50 < Aliks> yeah people dont understand that cheaper requires some sacrifices 23:50 < QuantumG> and risks 23:50 < Aliks> right 23:50 < Aliks> so QuantumG, whats your specialty? 23:50 < Aliks> I'm a CS/some bio type 23:51 < QuantumG> I'm a software developer for a living. Have interests in rocketry, molecular biology, manufacturing, etc. 23:51 < QuantumG> molecular manufacturing.. 23:51 < randallagordon> seems to be a common theme around here, I take it the majority of us are coders? 23:52 < kanzure> yes 23:52 < QuantumG> some interest in exotic physics 23:52 < Aliks> QuantumG, sounds similar to me 23:52 < kanzure> i invited you all in for a reason :) 23:52 < Trooem> i am a marketer! 23:52 < kanzure> haha 23:52 < kanzure> it's true 23:52 < Trooem> :))))))))) 23:52 < Aliks> I'm sort of deciding to specialize on a couple of areas though... I dont want to know everything about everything but take so long to do it that I die before I can accomplish anything 23:53 < randallagordon> Who here is planning on dying? ;) 23:53 < Aliks> not me 23:54 < Aliks> but obviously that requires hard work on all our parts 23:54 < Aliks> I am treating it like a race 23:54 < Aliks> us vs death lol 23:54 < randallagordon> pretty much 23:55 < Aliks> QG, where from 23:55 < Aliks> I think with all the similarities between us all, we might have some projects we could work on cooperatively... any of you guys currently working together on something? 23:55 < Aliks> QG, I assume you've been to nanorex.com? 23:56 < kanzure> Aliks: we're all working on the /topic 23:56 < Aliks> ah I see 23:56 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/dokuwiki/skdb 23:56 < kanzure> http://openmanufacturing.org/ has the videos, like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg 23:56 < kanzure> it's like apt-get but for hardware :) 23:57 < Aliks> right, I saw your video 23:57 < kanzure> yay 23:57 < Aliks> watched all of them yesterday 23:57 < Aliks> very cool stuff 23:57 < Aliks> I'm especially interested in the Factor-E-Farm thing though 23:57 < kanzure> today i've been writing up some pretty documentation 23:57 < Aliks> but yeah I do like the ideas in general... 23:57 < Aliks> I should show you some of my writing sometime 23:57 < Aliks> from my more political days 23:57 < randallagordon> So would Trooem be the "...marketing guy who knows what we're rambling on about. "? ;) 23:57 < kanzure> uh oh 23:57 < Aliks> this sort of accomplishes by technology what I was pointing out as a problem in our economy 23:58 < kanzure> randallagordon: eh, sort of 23:58 < Aliks> the sort of centralization of knowledge, basic required technology to actually DO anything 23:58 < Aliks> like, you cant just say "ok, opt out of the system.... go live on some land with NOTHING" 23:58 < kanzure> in programming we call this "forking" 23:58 < Aliks> "no technology, it's all patented.. no tools, they're all patented.." 23:58 < Aliks> etc. 23:59 < kanzure> someone needs to punch the living daylights out of me if i don't finish some basic tutorials soon 23:59 < Aliks> ok 23:59 < Aliks> lol 23:59 < kanzure> seriously though, it's been a week 23:59 < kanzure> or more 23:59 < Aliks> kanzure, or you might just try explaining it to somebody (ie. me) and log it 23:59 < Aliks> and then write from that 23:59 < QuantumG> there's something worse than patents 23:59 < kanzure> but you don't have a debian or ubuntu installation 23:59 < QuantumG> national security classification