--- Day changed Mon Mar 01 2010
00:00 < kanzure> various gloves, some with accelerometers http://worldinventions.blogspot.com/2008/09/top-5-diy-glove-keyboards.html
00:01 < kanzure> acceleration sensing glove ("virtual keyboard") http://web.archive.org/web/20080621115011/http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/archive/users/hollar-seth/fingeracc/fingeracc.html
00:03 < kanzure> what's the sampling rate on an accelerometer?
00:03 < genehacker> >1hz
00:03 < genehacker> pretty fast
00:03 < genehacker> depends on the accelerometer
00:04 < kanzure> i would be bragging the hell out about that, but i don't see any discussion on data entry rates in the papers on that last link
00:04 < kanzure> ew
00:04 < genehacker> ugh
00:04 < genehacker> this is bad
00:04 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer
00:04 < kanzure> "28 hand gestures are recognizable with acquisition times up to 1 character per second"
00:05 < kanzure> (for that last link)
00:05 < genehacker> >10 Hz
00:05 < genehacker> I am disappoint
00:05 < kanzure> 1 character/sec is basically 1/12th the current standard
00:05 < kanzure> but this might have been because of some recognition algorithms they were implementing
00:05 < QuantumG> still, it's interesting from a "hey wearable, I'm pointing at something, locate it and tell me what it is" perspective
00:06 < genehacker> I still like the idea of the smart dust keyboard
00:07 < genehacker> where you apply smart dust accelerometers to the tips of your fingers and start typing
00:07 < genehacker> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=248
00:07 < genehacker> 590 Hz
00:07 < kanzure> i wonder if anyone else recognizes how absurdly slow these things are
00:08 < kanzure> http://ilab.cs.ucsb.edu/projects/mathias/KolschKeyboards.pdf has a review of virtual keyboards on page 7
00:08 < kanzure> the max cpm that they record is 250
00:10 < genehacker> now that senseboard is neat from a neat perspective
00:17 < kanzure> heh i liked this one, a wearable keyboard user for 8 years http://designfiles.org/papers/unsorted/Everyday%20Wearable%20Computer%20Use:%20A%20Case%20Study%20of%20an%20Expert%20User.pdf
00:17 < kanzure> he only uses emacs and a shell with it, plus a monocle HUD
00:18 < kanzure> :)
00:19 < kanzure> "and eth proposal to samsung" eth0?
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00:21 < kanzure> 60wpm on the twiddler2.. not terrible
00:21 < kanzure> http://handykey.com/
00:21 < kanzure> but expensive, and not accelerometers
00:21 < kanzure> review: http://www.wap.org/journal/twiddler/default.html
00:22 < kanzure> "On a regular keyboard, I can usually bang out about 80 words per minute, but with the Twiddler I can occasionally push it up to 85 WPM when I am really focused."
00:23 < kanzure> that last quote was from http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/50870?theme=print
00:24 < kanzure> more outdated info: http://web.archive.org/web/20021205113412/http://www.1stresource.com/~mistered/twiddle.htm
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00:29 < kanzure> blah only 3 keys for the android accelerometer: http://www.activationrecord.net/radekp/openmoko/android/accelkbd_rootfs.tar.gz
00:29 < kanzure> :P
00:32 < kanzure> "
00:32 < kanzure> Recognizing Postures in Vietnamese Sign Language With MEMS Accelerometers
00:33 < genehacker> argh, now what's that japanese hacker one handed keyboard thing...
00:34 < kanzure> hm, this is interesting: http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/HTC-TMobile-MyTouch-3G-35mm/ touch-based keyboard where you don't lift up until you are done with a word
00:36 < kanzure> blah i just need one study of someone who put accelerometers on fingers and watched a fast typist do his thang
00:38 < genehacker> 3 axis accelerometers?
00:38 < genehacker> on each finger?
00:38 < genehacker> sound horrendously expensive
00:42 < genehacker> but then again maybe they'll get so cheap, they can be used in disposable products
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00:57 < kanzure> now available for download: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/india/projects/biocoder/
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01:11 < kanzure> wonder what happened to them: http://web.archive.org/web/20060208134716/http://www.microoptical.net/
01:11 < kanzure> "They project the information where you need it most — right in front of you." i feel stupid reading this
01:13 < kanzure> grumble grumble, $2k?
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01:21 < genehacker> retinal projection is cooler
01:22 < kanzure> bci is even cooler
01:22 < genehacker> btw you wouldn't happen to know if there are any displays that vary focus with response to eye focus to give focus depth projection
01:22 < genehacker> BCI is cooler
01:22 < genehacker> it just a bit off
01:23 < genehacker> doesn't that optical brain interface thing require some genetic modification of your cells?
01:24 < genehacker> oh wait, there aren't much in the way of immune cells in the brain....
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01:37 < kanzure> "Well, where's my Dad?" "Well, it should be obvious to even the most dim-witted individual who holds an advanced degree in hyperbolic topology, ng-bwui, that Homer Simpson has stumbled into .. the third dimension."
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08:45 < fenn> can't you guys post some interesting links
08:45 < fenn> all those gloves were awful
08:45 < fenn> microoptical went out of business and the technology now belongs to a number of companies, notably kopin (which is used in myvu and other glasses)
08:47 < fenn> accelerometer chips are like $1.50 in quantity these days
08:56 < fenn> "fingeRing" only detects the impact of a finger against a surface, it's not actually tracking the movement in space
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09:26 < kanzure> biotech on a budget: http://www.scienceline.org/2010/02/26/biotech-on-a-budget/
09:27 < kanzure> "Sung won Lim may be the only undergraduate on Earth who is trying to start life from scratch in his spare time."
09:27 < kanzure> what a terrible way to start an article.
09:28 < kanzure> "dur hur i can't do research"
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09:42 < kanzure> fenn: i want to hook up accelerometers to each finger in front of a qwerty keyboard
09:42 < kanzure> with 500 Hz sampling over each finger, and with 3-axis, that should be enough data to do something interesting with
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09:57 < kanzure> http://capitalfactory.com/ 20k + 20 mentors? meh
10:32 < kanzure> just some old blog articles i recall commenting on
10:32 < kanzure> http://thebogles.com/blog/2008/01/civilization-is-a-hack-should-we-plan-to-throw-one-away/
10:32 < kanzure> http://affectiveengineering.com/blog/jkantarek/using-github-storing-open-source-hardware-projects
11:00 < kanzure> does anyone know how the bacteriorhodopsin memory i/o rate was calculated? 10 milliseconds per read, and they say 10 MB/sec max, and i can't see how they are getting 100kb out of a single read
11:02 < kanzure> s/100kb/100KB/
11:09 < kanzure> oops, i guess 10.24 KB
11:10 < kanzure> *102
12:13 < kanzure> i don't get it: http://www.mightynumber.com/
12:15 < kanzure> oh, it's just an ad trap
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12:37 < kanzure> i can't seem to decrypt this geektalk: http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-06/1182593009
12:38 < kanzure> and again: http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-06/1182645952
12:39 < kanzure> http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-06/1182647158
12:46 < kanzure> wtf, BLAST was the most cited paper in the 90s? http://www-math.mit.edu/~lippert/18.417/papers/altschuletal1990.pdf
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13:24 < genehacker> http://www.physorg.com/news186661582.html
13:24 < genehacker> hopefully companies will actually start developing implants
13:29 < kanzure> hrm for some reason "Blah".isalnum() returns true in python
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14:04 < kanzure> http://www.humblefacture.com/2009/08/three-pillars-of-humblefacture.html
14:04 < kanzure> http://www.humblefacture.com/2010/02/digifab-ecosystem-video.html
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14:52 < kanzure> so.. i want to solve the tangiblebit problem
14:52 < kanzure> i want them to be cooperative
14:52 < kanzure> i'm tired of this.
14:58 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/9218c31e1dd0ef4e/b41d278f085bfeb7?lnk=gst&q=skdb#b41d278f085bfeb7
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15:12 < samrose> kanzure moving that last question here
15:13 < samrose>  kanzure, it looks like there is one difference in tangiblebit and skdb and that is how data for packages is stored
15:13 < samrose>  I think you are storing in git, and tangiblebit is gearing towards storing in mysql is that correct?
15:16 < kanzure> no it's my understanding that tangiblebit is using the same flat file format that we are, except with different conventions
15:19 < samrose> kanzure I think you are right that this is what they were doing, but today we were talking about their plans to use mysql with django as db-connect
15:20 < samrose> not that is means anything in regards to what we were talking about privately
15:20 < samrose> someone else was asking me this question
15:20 < kanzure> i strongly doubt that smari is going to put flatfile packages under mysql ;)
15:21 < kanzure> his django stuff is for something else
15:22 < samrose> no, I actually believe this is what we were talking about (see ChristianS answer to this question in #tangiblebit right now
15:23 < kanzure> holy fuck
15:23 < kanzure> O.o
15:23  * kanzure wonders why christian isn't in here ever
15:25 < samrose> they believe there is an issue with scalability in using flatfiles (I conjecture)
15:25 < samrose> I agree. I think using flatfiles and/or mysql (or any sql) are bad idea
15:25 < samrose> bad ideas
15:26 < samrose> I mean, they work, but there could be a better way
15:26 < samrose> I talked with tangible bit today about the possibility of using Erlang/mnesia as data store
15:26 < samrose> key:value instead of SQL
15:27 < samrose> you can still do list comprehensions in Erlang
15:27 < samrose> it scales really well, and is distributable inherently
15:27 < kanzure> what's wrong with the key:value dictionaries in their current file format? (.tb)
15:27 < samrose> nothing
15:28 < samrose> they could be stored in mnesia instead of MySQL, is that I think
15:29 < samrose> or, there are many other key:value stores that could be used
15:29 < samrose> if not mnesia...
15:34 < samrose> another possibility: http://code.google.com/p/redis/
15:46 < fenn> if you are going to get all fancy you should use RDF
15:47 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplestore
15:48 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoSQL
15:49 < fenn> i don't get it
15:50 < fenn> why would you jump right in for something whose only virtue is that it can handle 2PB of data?
15:51 < samrose> there's a data model that we are working on that would allow you to store as object/relationship, then would translate to RDF, graph, document, key:value, depending on what you ask it to return
15:52 < samrose> http://code.google.com/p/knowledge-commons/source/browse/knowledge_commons.erl
15:54 < samrose> this is the most flexible thing we could think of. can store data model of anything once you know what "objects" and "relationships" are.
15:55 < fenn> why not just start in rdf?
15:55 < fenn> i guess i dont understand what you're trying to do
15:56 < samrose> I am trying to design for interoperability. Instead of forcing people to use RDF, I want RDF to be once choice among many. 
15:57 < fenn> aren't you "forcing people" to use mnesia?
15:57 < samrose> we have made this data model in many other databases mnesia not required
16:00 < samrose> just suggestions, feel free to ignore me! :-D
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16:02 < fenn> 1500 down, 7500 to go
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16:04 < kanzure> fenn: out of what?
16:13 < fenn> over 9000!
16:14 < fenn> oh, it hurts
16:14 < kanzure> it's odd how people reply.. "just suggestions! how dare you talk with me about it! /quit"
16:16 < kanzure> guh a 43GB file :( ftp://ftp.jcvi.org/pub/data/huref/databases/huref6.20090806.sql.bz2
16:16 < kanzure> at least their connection doesn't suck
16:17 < kanzure> sam just sent me an email:
16:17 < kanzure> > ...every time I talk to you guys (you and fenn), the general vibe and
16:17 < kanzure> > tone that I am getting from you is that I am starting out in a square
16:17 < kanzure> > where I am completely full of shit, clueless fuck who had better
16:17 < kanzure> > justify my existence and prove to you that I know what I am talking
16:17 < kanzure> > about.
16:20 < fenn> gee i'm sorry for making people defend their arguments with rationality
16:21 < kanzure> not even defend..
16:22 < fenn> i mean we already have a key:value system.. ideally if we go with some monstrous database system it will at least be more robust and have better performance than now
16:22 < fenn> nfi what smari and friends are doing
16:23 < fenn> but all of that is a zillion light years away anyway, so i dunno why people keep bringing it up
16:26 < kanzure> i don't know how to reply to him
16:26 < kanzure> "um, we were just talking with you" doesn't seem like it's going to convince him
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16:31 < kanzure> fenn: just sent you the email
16:34 < kanzure> so, maybe i'm just stupid. i see nothing out of the ordinary in the discussion that was just occuring
16:40 < fenn> next time sam comes in here i will just smile and nod
16:40 < fenn> more likely i will be asleep, but it amounts to the same thing
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16:41 < fenn> i wonder if i should pester people about my sql problem or if i should just learn it for real
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16:43 < fenn> znc?
16:43 < fenn> bkero-ZNC: are you a bot?
16:44 < bkero> fenn: nope
16:44 < bkero> THat's me transitioning to znc
16:46 < fenn> ok i'm going to go anti-mope
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16:53 < kanzure> fenn: sql isn't that much of an issue
16:54 < kanzure> most people who claim to "know" sql just know how to yell SELECT and UPDATE
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17:02 < fenn> yeah but i need to know more than that.. i'm doing something complicated
17:04 < kanzure> then: join, group by, where clauses are your friend
17:04 < kanzure> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose@gmail.com> wrote:
17:04 < kanzure> > No, it's all good. Just wanted to share my little theory with you. But
17:04 < kanzure> > hey, what the fuck do I know? ;-D
17:06 < fenn> damn hairy yaks everywhere
17:06  * fenn goes anti-moping
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17:59 < kanzure> "Edward You, a special agent with the FBI Weapons of Mass Destruction Directorate, Countermeasures Unit, Bioterrorism Team." (was just mentioned in a diybio email)
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18:21 < kanzure> i wonder if i should go
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18:34 < kanzure> http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event_summary&event_id=601732
18:35 < kanzure> massenvernichtungswaffen
18:40 < kanzure> i bet this is special agent edward you: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/images/hrtppe.jpg
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19:07 < kanzure> 17:04:25 omg/jrayhawk: i found the blog of a severe autistic who decided to steal power and internet such that she could hole up in a 
19:07 < kanzure> cave in the woods for several years
19:07 < kanzure> http://www.drtonymroberts.com/faye/blogdex.htm
19:07 < kanzure> hm it seems she's going naked.
19:07 < fenn> hawt
19:08 < fenn> <- has an autistic-hole-in-the-woods fetish
19:09 < fenn> omg i didnt realize it was a porn site
19:09 < fenn> ... or ... something
19:11 < kanzure> honestly i'm not really sure *what* it is
19:32 < kanzure> auschwitz legos http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.viewcustom&friendId=150103974&blogId=325595770&swapped=true
19:33 < fenn> yess, finally a job requirement i satisfy
19:33 < fenn> "It is a plus if you have extensive Star Craft gaming experience."
20:32 < fenn> All people have a "tact filter", which applies tact in one direction to everything that passes through it. Most "normal people" have the tact filter positioned to apply tact in the outgoing direction. Thus whatever normal people say gets the appropriate amount of tact applied to it before they say it. This is because when they were growing up, their parents continually drilled into their heads statements like, "If you can't say something nice, don
20:32 < fenn> "Nerds," on the other hand, have their tact filter positioned to apply tact in the incoming direction. Thus, whatever anyone says to them gets the appropriate amount of tact added when they hear it. This is because when nerds were growing up, they continually got picked on, and their parents continually drilled into their heads statements like, "They're just saying those mean things because they're jealous. They don't really mean it."
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20:33 < fenn> this sufficiently explains the nerd<->non-nerd disconnect for me
20:46 < kanzure> fenn: too much tact: "apologies you consider yourself a 'nerd'"
20:46 < QuantumG> meh, I still have troubles with empathy
20:47 < QuantumG> I dunno if its related to being a nerd
20:47 < QuantumG> it's simply that I care about myself so much more than I care about others.
20:47 < QuantumG> why should I waste time thinking about your stupid little emotions?
20:52 < fenn> QuantumG: that's just you being an asshole, there's a difference :)
20:52 < QuantumG> for sure
20:57 < QuantumG> btw, have you ever considered the Diana Troi character on TNG?
20:58 < QuantumG> I wonder what the thinking behind that was?   "Ya know, we're likely to have a lot of bit part actors on this show that can't really present emotions all that well, and our audience is mostly geeks who have trouble with empathy, so we should have a character that just says *completely obvious shit about emotions all the time*."
21:01 < kanzure> empathy is not the same thing
21:01 < kanzure> go away
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22:48 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZquaoUMfIc
22:51 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@wireless-128-62-52-168.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:53 < fenn> well, this is interesting: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.viewcustom&friendId=150103974&blogId=258829901&swapped=true
22:53 < fenn> (more faye kane)
23:27 < kanzure> "i'm a regular tomasina edison"
23:29 < katsmeow> :-\
23:48 < fenn>  It would appear that we have reached the limits of what it is possible to achieve with computer technology, although one should be careful with such statements, as they tend to sound pretty silly in 5 years.
23:48 < fenn>  -- John Von Neumann,1949
23:48 < QuantumG> hehe
23:49 < kanzure> didn't he die a few years after that?
23:49 < QuantumG> way to be prescient and not, in the same quote