--- Day changed Thu Mar 04 2010
00:02 < CIA-47> pyscholar: kanzure master * r5378eee / doc/url.txt : link to python-spidermonkey to execute javascript in a python script - http://bit.ly/bj4JmY
00:02 < CIA-47> pyscholar: kanzure master * rec1e91f / sciencedirect.py : given a link to an abstract on sciencedirect.com, sciencedirect.py downloads the PDF - http://bit.ly/9iQz47
00:02 < kanzure> can i hear a "hell yeah"?
00:05 < kanzure> no more waiting for annoying popups to get a pdf from sciencedirect :)
00:06 < katsmeow-afk> i did that with php years ago for a few sites
00:06 < kanzure> yeah but you never released your code
00:06 < katsmeow-afk> actualy, i did
00:06 < kanzure> link
00:06 < katsmeow-afk> ancient history, it's all gone
00:07 < katsmeow-afk> the sites don't exist anymore
00:07 < kanzure> is it on web.archive.org at all?
00:07 < kanzure> `papers2/thesplitcp/Methyl group as a probe of chirality in Raman optical activity.pdf' -> `/mnt/externia/nature/papers2/thesplitcp/Methyl group as a probe of chirality in Raman optical activity.pdf'
00:07  * kanzure hopes this will finish in time
00:08 < katsmeow-afk> i doubt it, other pages i had online in that time frame weren't archived either
00:09 < katsmeow-afk> re-posting...
00:12 < katsmeow-afk> heh, even as a .txt, and no opening <? , the server is trying to run it
00:14 < katsmeow-afk> http://designerthinking.com/temp/proxydemo.7z
00:14 < katsmeow-afk> i broke it with text, fill in your auth tests as neded
00:14 < katsmeow-afk> the only site i left in it may not be the same format any more, i didn't test
00:15 < katsmeow-afk> with intellicast serving 150k html for a 60k gif, and me on dialup, i often simply cold not get their pages before timeouts occured
00:16 < kanzure> weird, diveintopython.org is down :(
00:16 < katsmeow-afk> dive in topy thon, eh?
00:17 < katsmeow-afk> ;-)
00:17 < katsmeow-afk> i think that was php v4.x too, maybe v5
00:26 < CIA-47> pyscholar: kanzure master * r3093f44 / (9 files in 5 dirs): sweet-and-simple DOI resolver - http://bit.ly/dx4Z4t
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00:29 < kanzure> hello
00:30 < katsmeow-afk> hello
00:30 < ybit> http://truecompanion.com/roxxxy-gallery.html
00:30 < katsmeow-afk> erg
00:30 < ybit> sex robot, what's not to like
00:31 < katsmeow-afk> a blow up doll with a tape deck
00:31 < katsmeow-afk> golly
00:31 < ybit> 22:30 < QuantumG> kanzure: the ACM programming competition does something like that
00:31 < ybit> i attended one of these about 4 years ago
00:31 < ybit> ibm sponsored most everything
00:32 < QuantumG> I hate them
00:32 < spvensko_> bkero: you owe me a beagleboard write up :P
00:32 < QuantumG> they're math competitions with a programming element
00:33 < bkero-legacy> spvensko_: I do?
00:33 < kanzure> spvensko_: you might be able to get fenn to do that writeup
00:33 < bkero-legacy> What do you want to know about one?  I have one in a box that I fried.
00:34 < spvensko_> yes bkero, you were talking about doing a beagle board write up several months ago in #bioinformatics, i'd forgotten about it til i saw you in here
00:34 < bkero-legacy> spvensko_: I can answer any questions you might have :)
00:34 < spvensko_> i may PM you some questions a little later if that's okay, i don't want to be too off-topic in here
00:34 < kanzure> how'd you fry the poor guy :(
00:35 < kanzure> spvensko_: nah, some of us are building wearable computers
00:35 < kanzure> out of beagleboards
00:35 < kanzure> so it's on-topic
00:35 < spvensko_> ah, in that case, what did you use for a "case"? i've look at altoid cans, etc. but i'm not sure what's suitable since i don't have one in front of me
00:35 < bkero-legacy> My crimpers accidently slipped on my desk and fell onto my keyboard tray, right on top of the beagle.
00:35 < bkero-legacy> spvensko_: There's a nice $20 jigged acrylic case that is sold for the beagleboard.
00:36 < spvensko_> ouch
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01:03 < kanzure> gah why is #bioinformatics more interesting tonight
01:03 < kanzure> you guys suck
01:09 -!- tari [~adam@2610:130:115:b00:223:54ff:fea4:a5fb] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:09 < kanzure> hey tari
01:09 < tari> hi
01:09 < kanzure> what brings you here? :)
01:09 < tari> just checking it out
01:09 < kanzure> we were just talking about microfluidics and lab-on-a-chip stuff a few minutes ago
01:10 < tari> couldn't tell you what those are, unfortunately
01:10 < kanzure> er, miniaturized biology laboratory :)
01:10 < tari> on a chip, though?
01:10  * kanzure nods
01:11 < tari> well, what kind of chip?
01:11 < kanzure> plastic of some sort
01:12 < tari> so chemical reactions through small tubes?
01:13 < kanzure> yep. but also biology lab equipment on a small scale, like sensors and thermocyclers and heat and the cold
01:13 < kanzure> i'm growing kind of tired over here so i might randomly fall asleep
01:13 < tari> alright then
01:14 < kanzure> but last year when i was talking about this, this happened: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/1197606e3c3dc439
01:14 < kanzure> it might make for interesting reading (maybe not)
01:14 < kanzure> depends on how you got here :)
01:14 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 40 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 40 normal]
01:15 < tari> I found heybryan.org
01:15 < kanzure> oh! that's me :)
01:16 < tari> I had a feeling it was
01:18 < tari> nice that some people actually talk on some of these irc channels
01:19  * katsmeow agrees
01:20 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
01:21  * katsmeow slowly leans over and falls asleep
01:22 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk
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01:28 < ybit> Utopiah: do you have the Facts on File - Genetics Edition 2010 book? The torrent has been stalled for days now
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02:15 < Utopiah> ybit: nop sorry
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05:42 < Utopiah> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/mikrokopter-hexakopter
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07:05 < fenn> "It surprises to find fenn watches that much TV."  I have a high hypnotic quotient. I NEVER initiate the tv-watching myself.
07:09 < fenn> "debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
07:12 -!- klafka [~klafka@129.21.69.165] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:15 < fenn> the chronicles of externia
07:16 < JayDugger> You are getting very sleepy...
07:17 < JayDugger> Your eyes are getting heavy...
07:17 < fenn> re: beagleboard write-up, wtf is a "write-up"?
07:18 < fenn> my initial assessment is that booting your distro of choicr is harder than it ought to be
07:19 < fenn> JayDugger: i just woke up
07:19 < Utopiah> (KSRM Table of Contents Page http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm 	
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08:01 < JayDugger> I meant to test your hypnotic quotient, but fell victim to my own mesmeric prowess.
08:19 -!- Noahj [~noah@ip68-230-157-203.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
08:54 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?q="Kindly+help+me+in+this+regard"
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09:07 < kanzure> hey hundred-ideas 
09:07 < kanzure> how did quantified-self go last night?
09:08 < kanzure> hm also it seems i still haven't replied to your email. this sucks
09:14 < hundred-ideas> hey kanzure it was a little boring
09:15 < hundred-ideas> i stayed for the first hour, which featured "10 minute" talks about the zeo sleep tracker, a user of the zeo sleep tracker and his analytics, a group attempting to to "self futures" prediction or some nonsense
09:21 < kanzure> spvensko: ok, 60GB of nature copied to a fresh external drive
09:21 < kanzure> i'll be taking it by sneakernet to a faster network today
09:54 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@209-6-54-14.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas]
09:56 < fenn> hmm he left
09:58 < fenn> supermemo is exhausting.. i feel like i'm training for a marathon :)
09:58 < kanzure> told you
09:58 < kanzure> hey how are you running it?
09:58 < fenn> i'm using anki, not supermemo
09:58 < fenn> i guess i should say "srs" as the generic word
09:59 < kanzure> oh yay another TLA
09:59 < fenn> ok ok "spaced repetition" good?
09:59  * kanzure adds it to his nonexistant collection (er, dictionary)
09:59 < kanzure> yeah spaced reps
09:59 < kanzure> makes it sound like bodybuilding
09:59 < fenn> blah
09:59 < kanzure> 20 push ups, 50 put downs, 200 putters, 1400 spaced reps
09:59 < fenn> it doesn't convey the sense of an increasing interval
09:59 < fenn> "spaced repetition" makes me think you do the same thing every 2 days or whatever
10:00 < fenn> maybe i'll use "graduated interval" instead
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10:02 < fenn> i dont suppose you want to learn japanese
10:02 < kanzure> sure, why not
10:02 < kanzure> also, i was always taught to never ever log into an IRC network as root
10:02 < kanzure> why hasn't flamt been hacked to hell and back yet?
10:03 < fenn> oh, cool. so, apt-get install anki, then go to file->download shared deck and get the "core 2000 vocab and listening" step 1
10:03 < fenn> then get ready to memorize memorize memorize!
10:03 < kanzure> couldn't find package anki
10:04 < kanzure> it found pyscrabble though
10:04 < fenn> huh
10:04 < kanzure> libfinance-bank-ie-permanenttsb-perl - perl interface to the PermanentTSB Open24 homebanking
10:04 < fenn> anki is in debian-stable, wtf are you running
10:04 < kanzure> libaqofxconnect5 - library for OFX online banking
10:04 < kanzure> hm
10:04 < kanzure> um
10:05 < kanzure> lenny
10:05 < fenn> http://packages.debian.org/lenny/anki
10:05 < kanzure> ljadkjfadskfdwklfdklfja
10:06 < kanzure> aha, there we go
10:06 < kanzure> for some reason i had *only* lenny/unstable and lenny/volatile
10:06 < kanzure> heh'
10:06 < kanzure> not smart
10:07 < fenn> oh,  you should probably start with hiragana
10:08 < fenn> (there's a deck for that)
10:09 < kanzure> it's anki 0.9.6 and there's no "file" or any other menu item with "download shared deck"
10:09 < kanzure> oh, there's deck->import
10:09 < fenn> that's for opening local files
10:09 < kanzure> "not syncing, username or password unset"
10:11 < fenn> not sure where the shared decks are actually hosted
10:11 < fenn> i'll just upload it to you
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10:17 < JayDugger> LOL. Anki has a Newspeak deck. Awesome.
10:19 < fenn> sorry for teh slowness: http://fennetic.net/irc/Hiragana.tgz
10:20 < fenn> untar that in .anki (it's a tarbomb)
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10:22 < fenn> "he" sounds like "hey" and "hi" sounds like "hee"
10:23 < fenn> wo->oh  a->ah  ra->la  fu->hu
10:24 < kanzure> so, i've been working on this dev server that someone left off at my house
10:24 < kanzure> the previous coders were sharing an svn repository
10:24 < kanzure> but it looks like one of them didn't know how to use it
10:25 < kanzure> so they just modified the copy of the svn repo in /var/www/
10:25 < kanzure> now i'm left trying to figure out what should be kept and what should be thrown away
10:25 < kanzure> i think all the dwoo template changes should stay i guess
10:25 < fenn> burn it all!
10:25 < kanzure> i'd very much like to
10:25 < fenn> you could import it into git and then merge in /var/www
10:26 < kanzure> for some reason /var/log/apache2/* was all owned by root
10:26 < kanzure> but apache2 runs as www-data on the box
10:27 < fenn> i find it's not worth the effort to preserve peoples' weird-ass systems
10:27 < fenn> set it up the correct way, make sure it works, if so you're done
10:27 < fenn> resistance is futile!
10:27 < kanzure> have you ever seen someone developing a website under svn?
10:27 < kanzure> among multiple developers? this is terrible
10:28 < kanzure> how would you know if your change to the php source is going to do what you think it will?
10:28 < fenn> better than no svn?
10:28 < kanzure> you have to commit before you test
10:28 < kanzure> O_o
10:28 < fenn> not necessarily
10:28 < kanzure> do tell
10:28 < fenn> uh, well when i was doing a php website i just ran all the php/mysql bullshit on my laptop before uploading
10:29 < kanzure> yeah but they have these super-large databases of ridiculous size
10:29 < kanzure> which i guess i can remotely connect to
10:29 < fenn> so?
10:29 < kanzure> blah.
10:29 < kanzure> silence!
10:29 < fenn> what does the size matter?
10:29 < kanzure> won't fit on my laptop
10:29 < fenn> then make up some data
10:29 < kanzure> right
10:30 < kanzure> ftp://ftp.1000genomes.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/
10:30 < kanzure> http://openchemistry.co.uk/
10:30 < kanzure> more "open" stuff that's really just cc3.0
10:31 < fenn> what's wrong with cc?
10:32 < kanzure> it usually means it's not software
10:32 < fenn> so?
10:32 < kanzure> so i've learned to doubt that the people who are doing it know what "open source" refers to
10:32 < fenn> right.
10:32 < fenn> well, sometimes the data is good
10:33 < kanzure> isn't nist supposed to be doing this
10:33 < fenn> that's what i thought
10:33 < fenn> we should bomb them
10:33 < fenn> oops did i say that
10:33 < kanzure> edward you might stop you: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/images/hrtppe.jpg
10:33 < fenn> oo scary
10:33 < kanzure> (he's the special agent assigned to diybio)
10:33 < fenn> what he doesn't know is that i am also a ninja
10:33 < kanzure> their web page sucks too! http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/wmd_home.htm
10:33 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@dhcp-147-137.harvard.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:33 < kanzure> hey hundred-ideas 
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10:34 < fenn> hundred-ideas: was the "future self" person a red headed british woman?
10:35 < hundred-ideas> fenn: no, it was a finnish? guy who used to work at nokia
10:36 < kanzure> i updated the doc: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/1kfriend.ly.pdf
10:44 < kanzure> i'm thinking: free up to 100 connections or friends, then $25/year and $1 for every 100 extra connections, or some sort of logarithmic price breaks :P
10:46 < kanzure> the current alternative is subscribing people to private mailman mailing lists and managing those mailing lists and sending out updates
10:46 < kanzure> but then people get multiple emails if you subscribed them to more than one of your lists
10:46 < kanzure> and the management overhead kinda sucks for that
10:47 -!- Phreedom [~quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:49 < kanzure> http://www.synthesis.cc/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?blog_id=1&tag=LavaAmp&limit=20
10:49 < kanzure> http://www.synthesis.cc/2010/02/bits-atoms-and-the-future-of-manufacturing.html
10:50 < kanzure> http://gizmodo.com/5457461/atoms-are-not-bits-wired-is-not-a-business-magazine
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10:54 < futuresoon> svn is awesome btw
10:54 < futuresoon> never used it with multiple people, actually, but i don't think that's a problem
10:56 < wonklab> It does pretty well with multiple people as long as they know what they're doing.
10:56 < futuresoon> if it's highly modular, but there's a lot of module permutations to keep track of, svn is good
10:56 < wonklab> Some of the gui wrappers suck, though.
10:56 < wonklab> It's nice writing papers and grants in latex using version control.
10:57 < futuresoon> combinations rather
10:58 < futuresoon> pelletized biomass -> pellet stove -> closed loop steam engine -> hot sauce
11:25 < Utopiah> Meet the new revolutionaries of the Do-It-Yourself cultures VPRO 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqpVe9kNbhg
11:38 < kanzure> wonklab: have you tried distributed revision control like git, bzr, hg?
11:39 < klafka> heh
11:42 < fenn> that gizmodo article pisses me off
11:43 < fenn> <- got trolled
11:43 < klafka> howso?
11:45 < fenn> well, for one "apple is doing it, so it's automatically not a 'revolution'"
11:45 < Utopiah> +1
11:45 < fenn> 2) single man businesses are not fucking awesome??
11:46 < fenn> 3) a single man business runs behind production schedule, OMFG
11:46 < fenn> 4) diydrones is cool
11:46 < fenn> i'd continue but nobody cares, and then i'd have to read it again
11:47 < fenn> public service announcement: if you want to print an SVG at kinko's, export to pdf first
11:47 < wonklab> kanzure: I've used git and github a little.
11:48 < klafka> heh
11:48 < wonklab> We've used svn in the lab for a few years, though.
11:48 < klafka> China Is Not A Robot is  a great title
11:48 < klafka> or possibly the name for some neo-folk band
11:48 < fenn> i don't get it
11:48 < wonklab> neo-Chinese-folk
11:49 < fenn> what's the alternative to making low-volume batches in china?
11:49 < fenn> making low volume batches yourself?
11:49 < klafka> yeah
11:49 < fenn> how is that any better?
11:49 < klafka> i suppose
11:49 < fenn> i mean, not by hand at least
11:49 < klafka> presumably you will allow yourself better working conditions than the factory owner allows their workers
11:49 < fenn> what if i don't? what if i'm a fucking loser bum and i sleep at the computer lab
11:50 < fenn> they don't use prison labor to do low volume manufacturing.. it's too complex
11:50 < klafka> they don't have to use prison labor they just have to have shitty conditions
11:50 < wonklab> Maybe you could go hang out at the plant in China and see how things look.
11:51 < wonklab> Chill with the workers.
11:51 < fenn> wonklab: i'm going to do that
11:51 < wonklab> Sounds pretty fun to me.
11:51 < fenn> wonklab: i'm just juggling language s right now a
11:51 < klafka> really i think the alternative should be someone should make a real 3d printer
11:51 < fenn> not sure whether to learn korean or mandarin first, or fix up my japanese
11:52 < fenn> "real 3d printer" as in molecular nanotech? nothing else will ever be good enough
11:52 < klafka> probably mandarin
11:52 < klafka> fenn, yep
11:52 < fenn> ok nano boy, get right on it
11:52 < wonklab> Does Japanese make learning Mandarin harder or easier?
11:52  * fenn whips klafka with a carbon nanonoodle
11:52 < klafka> i think it has little relevance
11:52 < klafka> i'll stick to biomolecules
11:52 < klafka> these are things i know about
11:52 < klafka> nanotech seems to be complicated physics, p-chem, and chemical engineering
11:52 < klafka> fuck that
11:52 < fenn> wonklab: easier because you already recognize some of the characters and root words, harder because everything's totally fucked
11:53 < wonklab> I'm studying the ribosome, and that's a pretty decent molecular assembler.
11:53 < klafka> also tones
11:53 < klafka> wonklab, did you see the group that created a ribosome taht can accept 4 nucleotide codons?
11:53 < wonklab> Yeah, it seems like there's so much overlap in the characters that that might get confusing.
11:53 < wonklab> klafka: yeah
11:53 < wonklab> That sort of thing has been done before.
11:53 < klafka> oh really?
11:53 < wonklab> yep
11:53 < klafka> lame
11:54 < klafka> or rather
11:54 < klafka> it didn't go anywhere huh?
11:54 < wonklab> And people have been adding new amino acids to the genetic code for several years.
11:54 < klafka> i wonder would a 4 nucleotide codon make tRNA binding more stable
11:54 < klafka> so you have less wobble?
11:54 < wonklab> Beats me.
11:54 < fenn> wobble?
11:55 < wonklab> I think sometimes you get slippage on the ribosome and subsequent frameshifting because some tRNA binds 4 nucleotides from the mRNA.
11:55 < wonklab> There's a guy Peter Schultz who's done a lot of novel amino acid stuff.
11:55 < klafka> fenn, like in the standard genetic code there is a lot of duplication with the first nucleotide because the wrong tRNA binds sometimes
11:55 < fenn> i've heard of that happening in dna copying in some viruses, but not transcription
11:56 < klafka> that's why the genetic code is redundant
11:56 < wonklab> this is in translation
11:56 < fenn> erm, yeah. translation
11:56 < klafka> translation is probably the most error prone isn't it wonk?
11:56 < wonklab> But similar slippage errors happen in transcription, too, I think.
11:56  * fenn needs a supermemo for molecular biology
11:57 < wonklab> I don't know if translation is more error prone than transcription.
11:57 < wonklab> Replication is definitely high fidelity, though.
11:57 < klafka> yeah
11:57 < klafka> it seems to matter a lot less for both transcription and translation than replication
11:57 < wonklab> I put some biochemistry in supermemo.
11:58 < wonklab> Like pKas of various chemicals, and I'm working on the metabolic network.
11:58 < klafka> what is supermemo ?
11:58 < wonklab> A flashcard program.
11:58 < klafka> aah
11:58 < fenn> dna slippage: http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/media/tri_nucleotide_repeat-lg.mov
11:59 < wonklab> You use it each day, and it gives you a set of cards for that day.
11:59 < fenn> it's more than just flashcards, it models your forgetting curve and shows the card just before you forget
11:59 < wonklab> And if you miss stuff, it shows up more often.
12:00 < wonklab> There's like an exponential decrease in the frequency of cards you keep getting correct.
12:00 < fenn> anyway the point is you actually learn stuff and remember it ten years later, unlike school
12:00 < klafka> aah
12:00 < wonklab> But you have to keep up with it daily.
12:00 < klafka> i see
12:00 < klafka> idk i'd rather just learn what i use
12:00 < klafka> maybe i should do it w/ theorems though
12:01 < fenn> that's the point though, you don't learn unless you review months and years later
12:01 < wonklab> It's especially good for foreign language vocabulary.
12:01 < wonklab> Yeah, I put in a bunch of math and physics.
12:01 < fenn> modern biology == foreign language
12:01 < wonklab> Stuff that just shows up sometimes, and it's good to have on hand.
12:01 < klafka> do you do it every day?
12:01 < wonklab> heh
12:01 < wonklab> yep
12:01 < wonklab> Otherwise it builds up.
12:01 < klafka> for like how long?
12:01 < wonklab> It depends on how many cards you're putting in and how well you're doing.
12:01 < klafka> aah
12:01 < wonklab> Usually just a few minutes.
12:02 < klafka> wth no osx
12:02 < fenn> use anki, the open source clone
12:02 < klafka> excellent
12:02 < wonklab> I started a couple of years ago.
12:02 < fenn> wonklab: what do you use it for?
12:03 < wonklab> japanese, german, math, chemistry, and biophysics
12:03 < klafka> shit though
12:03 < wonklab> I'm slowly going through kanji.
12:03 < fenn> how does chemistry work?
12:03 < klafka> where was this when i was an undergrad
12:03 < wonklab> I put in pics of organic groups.
12:03 < wonklab> Also, I put in a bunch of stuff for the periodic table.
12:04 < fenn> ok so not reaction mechanisms
12:04 < wonklab> no
12:05 < wonklab> I don't really deal much with chemical reactions.
12:05 < wonklab> And when I do, it's just one or two that are really specific.
12:05 < wonklab> I've got a bunch of stuff from the enzyme commission in, though.
12:06 < klafka> actually i could totally use this for studying measure theory
12:06 < klafka> basically all of math
12:06 < wonklab> Like E.C.6 is ligases and E.C.2.1.1 is methyltransferases.
12:06 < wonklab> I hope I got those right.
12:06 < wonklab> I put in a bunch of stuff from group theory.
12:06 < fenn> yuck
12:07 < klafka> the problem imo w/ math is that you can make really awesome discoveries by sort of cross-pollinating theorems 
12:07 < fenn> that sounds like memorizing ISO standard numbers
12:07 < klafka> but it requires you to have really good recall and insight
12:07 < wonklab> There aren't too many E.C. numbers that I care about.
12:07 < wonklab> But it's been useful.
12:07 < wonklab> Sort of gives a general feel for the chemical capabilities of enzymes.
12:08 < klafka> aah
12:08 < wonklab> The top level groups are stuff like oxido-reductases, transferases, hydrolases, lyases, isomerases, and ligases.
12:08 < klafka> that does seem pretty useful actually
12:08 < wonklab> It's got a tree structure to the numbering convention so you can go as deep as you care to.
12:09 < klafka> *nod
12:09 < klafka> sort of like GO
12:09 < fenn> GO?
12:09 < wonklab> I feel like supermemo is good for memorizing a bunch of facts that you can use as scaffolding for building your web of knowledge.
12:09 < wonklab> Gene Ontology
12:09 < klafka> geneontology
12:09 < fenn> hm i'll have to look into that
12:10 < klafka> *nod, that's why it seems especially appealing to me for theorems
12:10 < wonklab> yeah
12:10 < wonklab> Some of the theorems don't make a whole lot of sense at first, but if I get interested, I'll go check them out.
12:11 < wonklab> And math books tend not to give the best motivation for what you really need to know and what you don't.
12:11 < klafka> yeah
12:12 < fenn> gene ontology refers to the chemical pathway? what if the gene doesn't actually do anything (not an enzyme)
12:12 < klafka> gene ontology is a way of representing genes and gene products across species and stuff 
12:13 < wonklab> klafka: You ever actually used GO for anything?
12:13 < klafka> yeah wonk
12:13 < wonklab> What?
12:13 < fenn> yeah but they seem more concerned with what the product does than, say, what promoters it has
12:13 < klafka> umm mainly w/ this gene network reconstruction program via literature
12:13 < wonklab> ahh
12:14 < klafka> i used GO to grab geneids for say a related batch of genes, then ran the associated microarray probes through this
12:14 < wonklab> GO seems good for genome annotation.
12:14 < klafka> also i'm trying to do the opposite, basically from microarray annotation build the files that this program needs to do the literature mining
12:14 < klafka> one of the things it needs for every probe id is a genbank accession # though
12:14 < klafka> which is driving me crazy
12:15 < klafka> since they are non-unique
12:15 < fenn> ok now i see it.. "transcription regulator activity"
12:29 < kanzure> oh shit, they be reading my brains
12:29 < kanzure> http://techcrunch.com/2010/02/22/etacts-manage-contacts-email/
12:43 < kanzure> wonklab: did you ever see fenn's writozyme idea?
12:44 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/polymerase/
12:44 < kanzure> lots of notes on polymerase papers in general: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/polymerase/2008-06-03.txt
12:44 < kanzure> beta clamp magic: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/polymerase/2008-06-06_beta_clamp.png
12:45 < kanzure> aha here we go: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/polymerase/retarded_polymerase/
13:25 < fenn> cool, wifi in the park
13:26 < fenn> somehow it took them an hour to read a file from my SD card at kinko's... in the meanwhile i browsed their material sampler, then got bored and uploaded it to the net and downloaded it onto their computer
13:29 < fenn> total cost: $1.18
13:29 < fenn> even as a bum my time is worth more than that
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14:19 < futuresoon> biomass pelletizer -> pellet stove -> closed loop steam engine -> electricity
14:19 < futuresoon> ya dig?
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14:28 < nsh> i wonder
14:28 < nsh> why we can't oxidise straight into electricity
14:28 < futuresoon> solid oxide fuel cells are awesome
14:28 < futuresoon> i meant something you could build for less than $2k though
14:29 < futuresoon> plus you could put a steam engine on the axle of a car today
14:29 < futuresoon> but a big SOFC won't fit as they exist today
14:29 < futuresoon> or they'd cost a ridiculous amount
14:29 < nsh> hmm
14:30 < futuresoon> SOFC is like your big power system and this is like super-reliable backup for when your fuel cell modules crack
14:30 < nsh> i guess someone else wondered that too then :-)
14:30  * nsh nods
14:30 < futuresoon> http://bloomenergy.com is doing well
14:30 < futuresoon> that's a SOFC company
14:30 < futuresoon> my thinking is to take a SCWG supercritical water gasifier and have its standard output go to the fuel cell's standard input
14:31 < futuresoon> that way you could do wastewater treatment as well as organic hydroponics as well as electricity
14:31 < futuresoon> but i'm thinking of stuff that could work today as well
14:31 < futuresoon> so biomass pelletization it is i think
14:32 < nsh> interesting
14:33 < futuresoon> nsh: you know QCAD?
14:33 < nsh> unfortunately not
14:34 < futuresoon> anyone in here know QCAD?
14:34 < nsh> i bet some people in #qcad do 
14:34 < nsh> oh, except it's an empty channel
14:35 < futuresoon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhW4p0tpnAE <---- fairly simple design i think
14:35 < futuresoon> the LifeTrac motor from http://openfarmtech.org/weblog is 5000 inch pounds
14:35 < futuresoon> the casing can be welded metal, say half an inch thick or so
14:35 < kanzure> http://www.locusmag.com/Perspectives/2010/03/cory-doctorow-making-smarter-dumb.html
14:36 < kanzure> http://www.hubbell-automation.com/ in a meeting with these people
14:36 < futuresoon> i've found rollers and a die set for $499 but i wanted to know how one roughly would make specs for a set in QCAD, whether that's difficult or easy
14:36 < nsh> oh, i was hoping that article was about making smarter dumb, kanzure 
14:36 < nsh> as in, edging the bell curve to the right a little
14:41 < fenn> what do you mean "know qcad"
14:41 < fenn> it's a drawing program
14:41 < fenn> dataja
14:41 < futuresoon> know enough to say whether it's a drawing program is more than me
14:42 < futuresoon> i'd like a QCAD version of this thing http://ascof.com/uploads/userup/0808/2611135Y412.jpg
14:42 < futuresoon> given that i am a complete beginner, do you think i can figure that out?
14:42 < futuresoon> or would it just be impossible
14:43 < fenn> yeah but i'd use inkscape since it has hex grid capability
14:43 < futuresoon> this thing is basically a pellet mill----1 mm separation between the roller and the die allows a carpet of biomass to form. a motor rotates the die and out pops pellets
14:43 < futuresoon> oh, cool i know someone who's very good with inkscape
14:43 < fenn> your mechanics probably want it in dxf thoguh with means qcad
14:43 < futuresoon> these holes aren't hex btw
14:44 < futuresoon> they're circular
14:44 < fenn> ok do you have a better picture of one of these things?
14:44 < futuresoon> i have video one sec
14:44 < fenn> no, dont want video
14:44 < fenn> want larger pic, directly facing camera, no crap in the way
14:44 < futuresoon> the video takes the machine apart
14:44 < futuresoon> that useful?
14:44 < fenn> no
14:44 < futuresoon> this is the best i could find then
14:45 < fenn> ok, dimensions?
14:45 < futuresoon> these are sort of like it http://www.generaldies.com/index.php?blk=dies-and-roller-shells
14:45 < futuresoon> 1/4 inch thickness die, 6mm die holes
14:45 < futuresoon> don't know much about the rollers, i can only estimate that the die is probably 6 inches diameter
14:47 < fenn> do you actually want to manufacture this?
14:48 < futuresoon> manufacture the die on site at replab using something like these http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=2047&step=4&id=8&top_cat=1
14:48 < futuresoon> by drilling
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14:48 < futuresoon> source the rollers elsewhere, china probably
14:49 < fenn> don't buy round.. get plate and cut it out on a bandsaw or plasma, then turn if needed
14:49 < futuresoon> why? cheaper?
14:49 < fenn> actually CNC plasma would be the best way to go
14:50 < fenn> onlinemetals says $65/each
14:50 < futuresoon> yeah, so we can bring that down huh
14:51 < futuresoon> okay i'll look into that too
14:51 < fenn> also plate will be flatter and since you're doing cnc plasma you dont have to do anything except let me make the file
14:51 < futuresoon> yeah it's all going to be CNC
14:52 < futuresoon> http://openfarmtech.org/weblog/?p=1424
14:53 < futuresoon> i have this group for uploading files and discussing changes: http://replab.sigmanode.com/pelletmill/dashboard
14:53 < fenn> i dont think 6mm is right
14:54 < futuresoon> why not?
14:55 < fenn> i just drew the grid @ 8 mm and it looks too coarse
14:55 < fenn> trying again 6mm grid spacing
14:57 < futuresoon> okay
14:57 < futuresoon> 6.5 inches was an arbitrary choice. maybe 6 inches is better
14:57 < futuresoon> but stick with whatever you've got
15:00 < futuresoon> another picture http://www.makeyourownpellets.com/wp-content/uploads/image/Pellet_Mil_Die_Rollers.JPG
15:01 < futuresoon> this one's straight on but it's tiny http://img.tradekey.com/images/uploadedimages/offers/1/5/A17402-20090903073115.jpg
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15:06 < fenn> anyone know what "el taragna" means?
15:06 < fenn> could be "teragna" too
15:07 < futuresoon> nope. google translate doesn't know
15:09 < futuresoon> another picture http://www.kingstarmachinery.com/cp/html/?85.html
15:09 < futuresoon> i think there's some kind of groove in the center so that a motor can fit in there and turn the die
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15:11 < kanzure> i have the naturedump uploaded, who wants
15:11 < futuresoon> what's a naturedump
15:12 < kanzure> nature.com
15:12 < futuresoon> web crawler?
15:12 < futuresoon> python? beautiful soup?
15:12 < kanzure> no
15:12 < futuresoon> oh
15:12 < kanzure> just the papers
15:13 < fenn> futuresoon: http://fennetic.net/irc/pellet_grid.dxf
15:14 < kanzure> http://www.etacts.com/about/
15:14 < kanzure> i'm convinced they don't know what they're doing
15:14 < fenn> futuresoon: on the first image you showed, the left and right arent even the same design
15:15 < futuresoon> i meant the one with the rollers, sorry
15:15 < fenn> anyway those are 5mm holes on a 6mm grid
15:15 < futuresoon> i see
15:15 < futuresoon> so i can open this file in qcad huh?
15:15 < fenn> i dunno, can you?
15:16 < fenn> the problem with etacts is that it's not facebook...
15:19 < fenn> futuresoon: i put the actual stuff you want to cut on the layer named "holes" - click the eye next to layer 0 to hide the construction lines
15:20 < futuresoon> okay. i'm just trying to make qcad's readme correspond to reality atm
15:20 < fenn> hm i learned it by clicking around
15:20 < futuresoon> actually i've abandoned my attempts to install it according to the readme and i'm just apt-getting it so no prob
15:21 < fenn> better strategy
15:21 < futuresoon> yeah for reelz
15:21 < fenn> debian ftw
15:21 < futuresoon> nice
15:21 < futuresoon> this is kick ass
15:22 < futuresoon> i'll upload this with a note like "fenn of #hplusroadmap on freenode did this"
15:22 < futuresoon> sounds good?
15:23 < fenn> kanzure: do you know what's the story behind this massive ad campaign for "single mom discovers trick to turn teeth white at home"
15:23 < fenn> futuresoon: i'm ben lipkowitz if it matters
15:23 < futuresoon> ben lipkowitz it is then
15:23 < futuresoon> i remember that now from that hplus summit video
15:24 < fenn> i get around :P
15:26 < superkuh> kanzure: I'm interested in the nature papers. URL?
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15:31 < futuresoon> fenn: http://replab.sigmanode.com/pelletmill/node/49
15:31 < futuresoon> that's you, buddy :-)
15:31 < futuresoon> awesome work
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15:32 < futuresoon> yeah i totally see now what you're talking about with the hex grid
15:34 < fenn> futuresoon: openID login doesn't seem to work? "only site administrators can create new user accounts"
15:34 < futuresoon> fenn: oh i haven't tested that yet
15:35 < fenn> ok, just FYI nobody can see anything unless they log in
15:35 < futuresoon> give me your email and i'll make you an account Ben Lipkowitz password: changeme
15:35 < futuresoon> really? damn
15:35 < futuresoon> one sec
15:35 < futuresoon> lemme change that
15:35 < futuresoon> http://replab.sigmanode.com/
15:35 < futuresoon> it's here at least
15:37 < fenn> so many languages to learn
15:37 < fenn> part of the reason i want to live forever is so i can learn all of them
15:37 < futuresoon> natural or programming?
15:38 < fenn> both
15:38 < fenn> at least they don't invent 50 new natural languages every year
15:48 < Phreedom> fenn: actually a lot more languages die every year :)
15:48 < Phreedom> mostly because they are useless
15:48 < fenn> no way
15:49 < fenn> I don't count "dialect" as language
15:49 < fenn> most computer languages are actually just dialects anyway
15:51 < nsh> SVO
15:53  * nsh muses
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16:16 < fenn> guh.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2230_Basic_Kanji.svg
16:22 < fenn> this map is fucking stupid
16:23 < fenn> they're all out of order
16:23 < Phreedom> fenn: you expect any kind of order or system in arcane hieroglyphs?
16:24 < fenn> yes
16:25 < Phreedom> just ask some fairy to fix the pic then ;)
16:25 < fenn> left of lower right corner is where they should start
16:27 < fenn> Phreedom: the map represents the sequence japanese schoolkids are taught
16:27 < fenn> i can't just wave a magic wand at it
16:33 < fenn> ok i was confused, it's actually SKIP (a lame alphabetization system)
16:34 < kanzure> fenn: no, i don't know the person behind that ad campaign, but i hate him anyway
16:41 < ybit> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArdPHmiX_DgTdE5nSjc5QnZvOVBrWFZ4cTJUWmkzWVE&hl=en
16:41 < ybit> was sent to me
16:41 < ybit> fab lab start up general budget
16:42 < ybit> year 1 total: $312,610, year 2 total: $222,558, year 3 total: $222,558
16:43 < fenn> uff-da
16:47 < kanzure> why did someone send that to you
16:48 < kanzure> so, i'm buying a: nokia n900, droid nexus, motorola droid, iphone 3GS, palmp ree, blackberry bold 9000/9700/8300/8310/8320/pearl/pearl flip/storm/tour/8800, motorola moto q, anything else?
16:50 < klafka> why?
16:51 < kanzure> because you bitches aren't using my money fast enough
16:51 < kanzure> and it's a cross-platform development environment i'm constructing
16:51 < kanzure> plus testing :/
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16:54 < klafka> aah
16:54 < klafka> hey i can spend money plenty fast 
16:55 < fenn> send me a nexus one plz
16:55 < klafka> haha
16:56 < fenn> why do you want so many cellphones though
16:56 < fenn> don't you know cellphones are evil?
16:57 < fenn> there's no such thing as a "droid nexus" btw
16:57 < kanzure> google.com/phone whatever the heck that is
16:57 < fenn> maybe you meant droid eris
16:57 < fenn> nexus one is the google phone
16:58 < kanzure> Nexus One or something
16:58 < kanzure> yes
16:58 < klafka> yeah
16:58 < kanzure> btw, yes i know this is all evil
16:58 < kanzure> the $2.5k/phone 2-year-contract deal bullshit is kind of annoying too
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17:40  * ybit can't seem to grep to the part of the logs where the rent-a-car on campus web links were
17:40 < ybit> anyone recall the name
17:41 < ybit> JayDugger: i think you responded
17:41 < JayDugger> ZipCar?
17:41 < JayDugger> Just awake for a quarter hour, and no coffee yet.
17:42 < ybit> that's it :)
17:42 < ybit> thank you JayDugger 
17:43 < JayDugger> You're welcome, ybit.
17:51 < ybit> now, does anyone recall that ground nutrient sensor system that looked like a plant itself?
17:57 < JayDugger> Sorry.
18:21 < kanzure> ybit: i don't have access to that google docs spreadsheet re: fablabs
18:23 < futuresoon> ybit: botanicalls
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18:32 < ybit> kanzure: http://ybit.ath.cx/text/fab_lab_start_up_general_budget.html
18:32 < ybit> futuresoon: that came to mind, but that's not it
18:37 < JayDugger> That's a second-rate oscilloscope.
18:37 < JayDugger> Sorry, on the general budget table.
18:38 < JayDugger> Adequate, at best.
18:38 < JayDugger> Can't gold-plate everything, I admit.
18:40 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:42 < kanzure> ""how a big site like MySpace uses thousands of cloud computing cores to do performance testing on its live site. There are some really great numbers in there from the performance tests, like generating 16GB/second of bandwidth and 77,000 hits/second during testing (not including the live traffic on the site at the time).""
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18:45 < kanzure> ybit: what's the general terms on distribution of that spreadsheet
18:45 < kanzure> is it cool if i, say, send that to the press
18:52 < ybit> kanzure: i'm not sure, i can let you know when i get a response
18:53 < ybit> it was sent to my from sherry lassiter @ mit
18:53 < ybit> s/my/me
18:53 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:53 < ybit> i'm looking into making the hackerspace affiliated with the fab lab network
18:54 < JayDugger> Which hackerspace, ybit?
18:54 < ybit> the one i'm working on creating here
18:54 < ybit> here == florence, alabama
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18:56 < ybit> the core of the equipment though is about $25-50k 
18:56 < ybit> ..the min. set of equipment for a fab lab
18:56 < JayDugger> Opposite corner of the state from Dothan, got it.
18:56 < ybit> 1hr away from huntsville
18:56 < JayDugger> Local news full of doom & gloom about Constellation cancellation?
18:56 < ybit> ?
18:56 < ybit> our's?
18:57 < JayDugger> Yes. I assume so, since Huntsville lies so close.
18:57 < ybit> maybe
18:57 < ybit> 85% of the population ascribes to that type of stuff i'm sure
18:57 < ybit> afk, pizza time
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19:03 < QuantumG> yeah, the Constellation people have fought a very effective campaign.
19:03 < QuantumG> barely 5% of pundits even mention that the Constellation program was never going anywhere cause it has always been underfunded
19:04 < JayDugger> Yeah, I know. Meanwhile Bigelow & Boeing claim 2014 is no problem for their launcher.
19:05 < JayDugger> I'd love to know if Bigelow and Blue Origin talked, but that's pretty off-topic for #hplusroadmap.
19:07 < QuantumG> not if kanzure got the job with BO
19:09 < JayDugger> "Here's your NDA, Meat. In blood, sign here, here, and here. Initial each page, and kindly underline section 35 (c), 'First-Born Child.' You may line through the section on adoption, that's just a standard clause which doesn't apply here."
19:09 < JayDugger> Perhaps B.O. HR doesn't have the same kind of people as my employer, but I doubt it.
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19:42 < fenn> constellation was retarded
19:42 < fenn> i'm just glad they finally killed the shuttle
19:44 < parolang`> Well, moon base sounded cool :)
19:45 < parolang`> But the rest of it sounded lame.
20:15 < JayDugger> Let me NOT play the tape of STANDARD SPACE RANT #2. 
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20:39 < JayDugger> Video of a Contraptor drawing a circle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Xhl5fGJpk)
20:40 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:42 < hundred-ideas> JayDugger: have you checked out the MTM project at the media lab?
20:42 < fenn> there's no plans or source or anything.. bastards
20:43 < fenn> hm, ok now the pcb mill has files
20:48 < fenn> what was the big directory of machines that students had made
20:49 < fenn> this is what i was thinking of http://mtm.cba.mit.edu/
20:49 < JayDugger> hundred-ideas, No, I hadn't. Thank you for the reference.
20:49 < JayDugger> fenn, yup...stingy bastards.
20:49 < kanzure> back
20:50 < fenn> makes me want to cry
20:50 < fenn> half of them are 404
20:51 < hundred-ideas> what is needed?
20:52 < fenn> files for "fluxmacutter"
20:53 < hundred-ideas> anyone know anything about http://biotechinstitute.org/index.php?
20:53 < Noahj> Fluxamacutter's far from finished
20:53 < Noahj> But yeah, the MTM site sucks 
20:53 < Noahj> Email shawn@as220.org, he's the guy building the fluxamacutter
20:54 < fenn> fuck i don't know.. tell them to get a clue
20:54 < fenn> PDF's are not cad files
20:54 < fenn> photographs are not cad files
20:54 < fenn> drawings in crayon are not cad files
20:54 < Noahj> Most of the fluxama-projects are currently in more of a fuxama-project state 
20:55 < Noahj> DXFs are cad files, right?
20:55 < Noahj> Are SVGs cad files? 
20:55 < fenn> obviously most of these things were designed in a cad program at some point
20:55 < Noahj> Or do you mean cad.py cad files :-p
20:55 < fenn> svg is good.. i'd rather not be forced to use cad.py
20:55 < Noahj> The fux... er, fluxamacutter wasn't designed in a cad program
20:55 < Noahj> It was designed in inkscape :-p
20:56 < fenn> sbp is bad because it's currently only implemented by shopbot, even though supposedly it's open
20:56 < Noahj> But yeah, Shawn'll have those SVGs. Lion/tiger/bear in mind that we don't have a working one yet 
20:56 < Noahj> It's pretty much just a pretty box with some laser cut bearings and some threaded rod 
20:57 < fenn> and how about putting some license info and other metadata while you're at it
20:58 < fenn> description of the machine's capabilities: work envelope, rapid speed, cutting speed
20:58 < Noahj> It doesn't have any capabilities yet
20:59 < fenn> the pcb mill looks functional
20:59 < Noahj> But I'll ask Shawn what the target is 
20:59 < Noahj> Yeah, the A-Z mill works 
20:59 < Noahj> The one we built at AS220 isn't currently in working condition but we just haven't set up the stepper drivers yet 
21:00 < fenn> i fucking hate this mit bullshit
21:00 < Noahj> I saw a demo of the first one, though, and it's quite nice 
21:00 < fenn> what exactly does "Permission granted for experimental and personal use." MEAN??
21:00 < fenn> every time you ask someone they just sort of shrug, like it doesn't matter because nobody is ever going to do anything with it anyway
21:01 < Noahj> Yeah, it's probably more constructive to ask them for permission to do specific things or classes of things 
21:01 < Noahj> Or forgiveness for the same ;-)
21:01 < fenn> how about i ask them to license it as GPL
21:02 < fenn> fucking universities
21:02 < Noahj> Does the GPL work for physical objects?
21:02  * fenn goes back to sleep
21:02 < QuantumG> sure
21:02 < fenn> only if they're copyrightable
21:02 < fenn> which means basically never
21:02 < fenn> only if it's mickey mouse
21:03 < fenn> the copyright is for the cad files
21:03 < Noahj> Makes sense
21:04 < Noahj> Maybe creative commons is more appropriate 
21:05 < Noahj> Is the ambiguity about the distribution of the files? 
21:05 < Noahj> I'm pretty sure "experimental and personal use" covers anything you could call an experiment 
21:05 < hundred-ideas> media lab is weird, they get a lot of corporate funding, so they sometime superficially support open source but don't actually release
21:06 < fenn> i really doubt the students care about that
21:06 < fenn> they are just incompetent
21:06 < Noahj> I've met a couple MIT students who care about licensing 
21:06 < Noahj> But most people I've talked to don't. 
21:09 < Noahj> It's a shame how many things are made, not documented, and then put on a shelf 
21:10 < Noahj> The fablabs have all been pretty bad about that
21:15 < Noahj> If I'd built anything significant I'd license it under CC-NC-SA...  
21:15 < Noahj> I'll go license my insignificant projects as such 
21:21 < fenn> why NC vs BY?
21:22 < fenn> a huge problem is nobody knows how to interpret "non-commercial"
21:22 < fenn> and it's stupid anyway
21:23 < fenn> if someone sells your design, that's a good thing
21:23 < fenn> er, i mean if they sell the finished product
21:23 < fenn> SA means they can't charge for it i think
21:23 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@140.247.4.219] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas]
21:24 < Noahj> Ah, I didn't know SA covered that 
21:24 < Noahj> I don't care too much about BY
21:24 < Noahj> Actually, I don't care at all about BY 
21:24 < fenn> that's the dividend though
21:24 < fenn> go read about gift economies
21:24 < Noahj> I have a friend who licenses everything under all licenses not under themselves 
21:25 < fenn> so you are the "anonymous donor" eh?
21:25 < Noahj> Nah, not me, I'm not anonymous, I'm not anyone 
21:25 < fenn> in that case why not just do public domain?
21:25 < Noahj> I'll consider BY when I want to be accountable for my work
21:25 < Noahj> *held accountable for 
21:26 < fenn> meh
21:26 < Noahj> The problem with gift economies is that if people can trace my work back to me I might end up with an angry mob 
21:26 < Noahj> Er, at best, I doubt anything I've done is that significant 
21:26 < fenn> or a happy mob
21:26 < Noahj> Public domain stuff ends up used as clipart and other awful nonsense 
21:27 < fenn> so?
21:27 < Noahj> I'd rather businesses in general stay away from things I've made, unless they're businesses I control 
21:27 < fenn> so does CC stuff these days, see clipart.org or whatever
21:27 < Noahj> That's fine, I mean "clipart packs" 
21:27 < Noahj> There're businesses which just repackage public domain things and sell them 
21:27 < fenn> i don't really see what's wrong with that at all
21:27 < Noahj> Which is fine, but I don't want things I've made to be included in those packages 
21:28 < Noahj> Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that
21:28 < fenn> please explain why you don't want someone to do something that's totally ok
21:28 < kanzure> this worked for me: http://www.tineye.com/
21:28 < Noahj> I mean, it's unlikely anything I've made's worth selling 
21:28 < Noahj> I can't explain that
21:28 < Noahj> I can explain why I don't want someone to do something that's not okay with me
21:29 < fenn> p_p
21:29 < Noahj> The distinction I'm trying (and failing) to make is that I still want to exercise that much control over the content I produce
21:29 < fenn> then don't use a permissive license
21:29 < fenn> fuck
21:29 < Noahj> Because I'm selfish and don't want people who didn't make it to profit from it
21:29 < Noahj> Er, not to profit to profit...
21:29 < Noahj> I'm fine with people benefiting from it, but not profiting from it :-p 
21:30 < fenn> fascist
21:30 < Noahj> Yeah, luckily, my choice of licenses doesn't matter, because I don't produce content worth distributing/utilizing/etc.
21:31 < fenn> you should work on that
21:31 < Noahj> Yep.
21:31 < Noahj> It's more important than choice of licenses...
21:31 < Noahj> I think that's what the MIT students are doing
21:31 < fenn> unfortunately their machines arent that good
21:32 < Noahj> Better than their licenses 
21:32 < fenn> there's some awesome stuff coming out of PERG but none of it is open licensed (and they aren't interested, more like "how can we get more patents")
21:32 < Noahj> "This machine's design files are under a license exactly as permissive as the quality of the machine"
21:33 < fenn> you are allowed to redesign the machine 0.001" in any direction
21:34 < fenn> reminds me of http://xkcd.com/287/
21:43 < Noahj> Oh man
21:43 < Noahj> I hadn't worked that out until now 
21:43 < Noahj> I'm facepalming at it 
21:44 < Noahj> Seven orders of mixed fruit works fine 
21:44 < fenn> i'm guessing you didn't go for the general solution
21:44 < Noahj> I can't produce a general solution though 
21:44 < Noahj> Yeah
21:46 -!- parolang` is now known as parolang
21:50 < JayDugger> PERG? 
21:50 < fenn> http://pergatory.mit.edu/
21:51 < JayDugger> Not www.lesley.edu/perg.htm or www.physics.umd.edu/perg/ ?
21:51 < fenn> in particular this guy has some awesome stuff http://rogercortesi.com/portf/index.php
21:52 < fenn> it's like ... Engineering *gasp*
21:53 < fenn> also i sort of go into a nice place when i think about this: http://pergatory.mit.edu/perg/awards/TURBOTOO.html
21:54 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:55 < fenn> apparently they are part of CBA
21:55 < fenn> that's "center for bits and atoms"
21:56 < Noahj> PERG is?
21:56 < Noahj> It doesn't look like it...
21:56 < fenn> yeah i think they are ashamed or something
21:57 < Noahj> The CBA's all the way on the other side of campus 
21:57 < Noahj> Maybe there was a schism or something 
21:57 < fenn> CBA is currently contributing support to: ..... Alex Slocum (Mech. E.)
21:57 < Noahj> Ah
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21:58 < fenn> also see for example fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/MIT/960.07/03.19/error_budgets.pdf
21:58 < kanzure> fenn: noah is well aware of CBA :P
21:58 < Noahj> Not aware enough to know about PERG 
21:59 < kanzure> i met noah via stalking david dalrymple (my CBA insider, sort of)
21:59 < Noahj> He's more MMP now 
21:59 < kanzure> MMP?
21:59 < fenn> the ai rehash project
21:59 < kanzure> lovely
21:59 < kanzure> oh well
22:00 < Noahj> Jonathan apparently uses structural loops in his milling machine
22:00 < fenn> i think it's more of a funding strategy actually
22:00 < fenn> uh.. all machines use structural loops
22:00 < fenn> its like saying "i use electrical circuits in my arduino"
22:00 < kanzure> !!!1
22:00 < hplusbot> kanzure: Error: "!!1" is not a valid command.
22:00 < kanzure> jkhgljhadsjfa;jlf
22:00 < fenn> wtf is that thing for
22:00 < fenn> !quit
22:00 < hplusbot> fenn: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
22:01 < fenn> !fuckoff
22:01 < hplusbot> fenn: Error: "fuckoff" is not a valid command.
22:01 < fenn> i hate bots
22:01 < kanzure> ybit is using it to log apparently, but he fails at logging
22:01 < fenn> !bookmark
22:01 < hplusbot> fenn: Error: "bookmark" is not a valid command.
22:01 < kanzure> !logs
22:01 < hplusbot> kanzure: http://adl.serveftp.org/irclogs.txt
22:01 < Noahj> Er, yeah, I meant something more like "has small-ish structural loops" 
22:01 < kanzure> that's basically the only command it does
22:02 < kanzure> it probably also does
22:02 < kanzure> !roll
22:02 < hplusbot> kanzure: Error: "roll" is not a valid command.
22:02 < kanzure> oh yay 
22:02 < Noahj> I'm going to sleep, it was nice not lurking for a while 
22:04 < kanzure> http://www.nycresistor.com/2010/03/03/oracle-of-biological-engineering-to-speak-at-nycr/
22:04 < kanzure> i *hate* this bullshit excitementism
22:05 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
22:06 < ybit> i do suck at logging
22:07 < kanzure> ybit: just set up an irssi session for hplusbot and have irssi send logs over to /var/www/irclog.txt
22:09 < ybit> http://www.asc.edu/ :: alabama supercomputer authority
22:13 < kanzure> i think jonathan wrote most of this page? http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ/Projects
22:13 < kanzure> yet-more-textplosions
22:18 < kanzure> hm there's nothing on the web about "excessive excitement" 
22:18 < kanzure> except a few pages that relate it to anxiety disorders
22:18 < kanzure> heh maybe bre pettis, zach et al. have anxiety issues
22:18 < kanzure> `Uncover Ways To Prevent A Dog From Unwanted Urination
22:18 < kanzure> him to that situation until it no longer causes excessive excitement`
22:19 < kanzure> the effects of excessive motivation on sports: http://medwelljournals.com/fulltext/TSS/2008/654-663.pdf
22:19 < fenn> are you on adderall?
22:19 < JayDugger> Wow...error budgets...I wish I could make all my co-workers read this, and then THINK.
22:20 < fenn> yeah unfortunately spreadsheets are state of the art?
22:20 < fenn> i mean error budget is pretty basic if you think about it
22:20 < JayDugger> Most people I've worked with use spreadsheets for table design.
22:20 < fenn> shouldnt all cad programs have this functionality as default?
22:20 < JayDugger> "What's a formula?"
22:20 < kanzure> fenn: yes, why?
22:20 < JayDugger> Probably...
22:21 < fenn> it was the fifteen links about "excessive excitement" that gave it away
22:21 < JayDugger> Error budgets are widely useful, not just in tool design.
22:21 < kanzure> fenn: i sent only one, re: medweeljournals.com
22:21 < kanzure> fenn: unless i missed something?
22:21 < kanzure> medwelljournals.com
22:22 < fenn> don't mind me, i'm grumpy
22:22 < kanzure> come on, surely you've noticed this
22:22 < kanzure> where these bullshit "social media" people get *super-excited*
22:22 < kanzure> but are full of shit :(
22:22 < fenn> yeah i think they do it on purpose
22:22 < JayDugger> E.g., my boss, the fool, won't spend $100 on a 1TB external drive to reduce errors in database content that might cost customers and break FAA regulations.
22:22 < kanzure> yes, i think they do it on purpose as well
22:22 < fenn> it's an excitement arms race, inflation, something like that
22:22 < parolang> fenn++
22:23 < kanzure> but excitement inflation isn't sustainable
22:23 < JayDugger> The error budget for this project is quite tight.
22:23  * fenn highfives parolang for being SO AWESOME!!!1
22:23 < kanzure> OH MAN
22:23 < kanzure> GIMME SOME OF THAT
22:23 < fenn> SNAP
22:23 < kanzure> BAM
22:23 < parolang> fenn: just meant I agree :)
22:23 < fenn> uh, BIFF
22:23 < kanzure> i hate myself
22:23 < parolang> Sometimes I get the idioms messed up :)
22:23 < kanzure> (in the sense that i'm sorry i subjected the channel to that)
22:24 < kanzure> parolang: yes that was understood
22:24 < fenn> ooh does the bot keep score?
22:24 < fenn> !karma fenn
22:24 < hplusbot> fenn: Error: "karma" is not a valid command.
22:24 < kanzure> :(
22:24 < parolang> oh...the excitement thing :)
22:24 < fenn> !troutslap hplusbot
22:24 < hplusbot> fenn: Error: "troutslap" is not a valid command.
22:24 < kanzure> you will _not_ be reincarnated according to hplusbot
22:25 < kanzure> i guess congratulations are in order
22:25 < parolang> For an H+ bot, you'd think it'd have more functionality :)
22:25 < fenn> !cryo-freeze parolang
22:25 < hplusbot> fenn: Error: "cryo-freeze" is not a valid command.
22:25 < kanzure> it's just a stripped down version of supybot
22:25 < parolang> heh, like that :)
22:25 < kanzure> !fix fenn
22:25 < hplusbot> kanzure: Error: "fix" is not a valid command.
22:25 < fenn> i couldnt think of anything
22:26 < fenn> what's the atheist version of reincarnation?
22:26 < parolang> !fabricate exoskeleton
22:26 < hplusbot> parolang: Error: "fabricate" is not a valid command.
22:26 < kanzure> how about !skdb-get install spaceship
22:26 < fenn> hmm an skdb interface would be possibly useful
22:26 < kanzure> how would it work
22:26 < kanzure> ooh ooh
22:26 < fenn> !p <insert python command>
22:26 < hplusbot> fenn: Error: "p" is not a valid command.
22:26 < kanzure> so, datapkg has been doing packaging for data sets
22:27 < kanzure> but they don't actually package the data (for some reason)
22:27 < fenn> so they say
22:27 < kanzure> and it's more like a registry but you download bits of the registry
22:27 < kanzure> which makes *no* sense to me (how is that like apt-get? it's totally missing the point)
22:27 < fenn> what's a registry?
22:27 < kanzure> but
22:27 < kanzure> dunno, but they call it a registery
22:27 < fenn> sounds windows-ey
22:27 < kanzure> anyway, i've been meaning to bring up the idea of hollow packages without actual content
22:27 < kanzure> so mostly just the metadata without anything useful
22:27 < kanzure> in the hopes that, some day, someone will fill it in
22:27 < parolang> Registery is where you register things...probably meant generally.
22:28 < kanzure> once someone gets a clue that they should be making (gasp) real CAD data
22:28 < fenn> ok, hollow away
22:28 < kanzure> yeah?
22:28 < kanzure> well, the bot interface would be nice for that
22:28 < fenn> just mark it as 'metadata-only unfinished' or whatever
22:28 < kanzure> someone mentions yet-another-bullshit-open-source-hardware project
22:28 < kanzure> and then we could do !create-a-package-for-this-and-add-it-to-the-server
22:28 < JayDugger> fenn: the atheist version of reincarnation is the food web.
22:28 < kanzure> and it could interview us with some questions (or something) re: authors, links, whatever
22:29 < kanzure> JayDugger: sounds a lot like caste :P
22:29 < fenn> JayDugger: i mean the technoprogressive model-all-atom-trajectories-and-reinstantiate-your-synaptic-network process
22:29 < kanzure> oh, the omega point
22:29 < fenn> sorta
22:29 < JayDugger> Oh...let me know when you have a working example.
22:29 < JayDugger> Tipler's a little too Christian for me.
22:30 < fenn> there's no reason the omega point couldn't get stuck in an infinite loop
22:30 < kanzure> aleph point?
22:30 < JayDugger> I think that's Nietzsche's model of the Eternal Return.
22:30 < JayDugger> YMMVV.
22:30 < kanzure> er not what i wanted to show up in my search: http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/
22:30 < kanzure> i should have expected anders to show up, but not for that reason ;)
22:31 < parolang> Eternal return is an interesting idea...but it's a scientific hypothesis which I think has been falsified.  But that's besides the point of the eternal return :)
22:31 < JayDugger> I would like to hear more about hollow packages.
22:31 < kanzure> though, there are some good links on that page
22:31 < kanzure> hollow packages are utterly useless except as "IOUs" plus metadata
22:31  * parolang is a Nietzsche junky :)
22:31 < JayDugger> My long-stalled DIY book scanner gets a kick in the pants this weekend.
22:31 < kanzure> is this a good kick in the pants or a bad one
22:31 < fenn> i would like someone to enter real data into skdb
22:31 < kanzure> fenn: i don't think anyone has real data :/
22:31 < fenn> if making stub packages is the way to get started, so be it
22:32 < JayDugger> Eh...If I get all my 45' of shelves scanned? Good.
22:32 < kanzure> fenn: what do you think of the .tb file format? the one that "isn't yaml"
22:32 < JayDugger> My current lease ends in June, and I move then.
22:32 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/process.tb
22:32 < kanzure> JayDugger: i have an open room
22:32 < fenn> are you sure that's not yaml?
22:32 < kanzure> they claim it's not
22:32 < kanzure> i don't like their camelcase, dunno what's going on there
22:33 < kanzure> - object ? (category ~ PrintedCircuitBoard & producer = Adafruit)
22:33 < kanzure> that makes mehfarts come out my butt :/
22:33 < fenn> that doesn't make sense
22:33 < kanzure> well, my butt is an amazing thing
22:33 < fenn> i mean having it all on one line
22:33 < fenn> category and producer
22:34 < JayDugger> Anyhow, time to commute. Good night, all.
22:34 < kanzure> odd how it's adafruit-only PrintedCircuitBoard objects 
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22:34 < fenn> what if you have multiple producers, you do an | (OR) statement?
22:34 < kanzure> i guess
22:34 < kanzure> but why should you have to list out all possible producers in the definition file?
22:35 < fenn> .tb is metadata only right?
22:35 < fenn> category ~ Thumbtack
22:35 < kanzure> it has "required input" and "required output", and then another .tb file defines the steps
22:36 < fenn> guh
22:36 < fenn> i'm not going to cooperate with someone who refuses to cooperate
22:36 < fenn> they can do whatever they want and i won't complain
22:36 < kanzure> that's so meta it's making my meninges cry
22:36 < kanzure> "i'm not going to cooperate"
22:36 < kanzure> "with someone who refuses to cooperate"
22:37 < fenn> your arachnoid is fuzzy
22:37 < kanzure> i don't get it
22:37 < fenn> let thine pili fly freely
22:38 < kanzure> are you implying that my meninges are in fact made up of fuzzy spider hair?
22:38 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachnoid_mater
22:38 < fenn> indeed
22:39 < kanzure> it's not a very good insight, that seems to be the etymology of it..
22:39 < kanzure> ANYWAY
22:40 < kanzure> stub packages. guess i need to make a few examples
22:40 < fenn> so i want to get some practice with django
22:40 < kanzure> are you sure
22:40 < fenn> what should i do? i mean i dont really need to make anything
22:40 < kanzure> here's my notes: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/django
22:40 < fenn> everyone and his dog is hiring for django people
22:41 < kanzure> yeah
22:41 < fenn> but i dont get it.. i mean you get to map url's and do python code... why do websites need this?
22:41 < kanzure> i hate to say it, but a front-end to your log parser or something
22:41 < kanzure> django is a project management framework more than anything
22:41 < fenn> nah that doesn't make sense
22:42 < kanzure> basically when you update your python classes included in your django project, the django python scripts that you call (like manage.py syncdb) update the database table structures
22:42 < kanzure> without deleting the previous data, etc. etc.
22:42 < fenn> it chugs through the whole db and reorganizes it?
22:43 < kanzure> no, i think in most cases it just throws some ALTER TABLE 'blah' ADD COLUMN 'guh' type varchar 255 
22:43 < kanzure> shit like that
22:43 < fenn> oh
22:43 < fenn> well that works i guess
22:43 < fenn> odd way to do data persistence if you ask me
22:44 < fenn> so i'm trying to sleep but it's not happening
22:44 < fenn> i almost bought melatonin today as an experiment
22:44 < kanzure> i sent you a "super exciting email" a few seconds ago, if you're trying to find an excuse to stay up (re: pink army, mail-order drug design services, ..)
22:45 < fenn> meh
22:45 < fenn> andrew hessel needs supermemo
22:46 < kanzure> i think his vision in that email is a little short-sighted
22:47 < kanzure> there's already other personalized medicine stuff showing up, he needs to push for developing a personalized platform thingy
22:48 < kanzure> actually that email makes him sound really flat
22:48 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure we've seen more interesting ideas out there already
22:49 < kanzure> meh http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/03/04/makerbot-survey/
23:19 < kanzure> http://blog.styleguidance.com/post/406444907/ycombinators-etacts-steals-ballparks-layout <-- haha
23:20 < kanzure> more: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1144633