--- Day changed Sun Jun 06 2010
00:07 < Utopiah> http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2010/05/doubt-cast-on-maxim-that-time-goes.html (since we briefly discussed time perception before)
00:13 < Utopiah> Molecular robots guided by prescriptive landscapes (13 May 2010, 1 year to publication) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7295/full/nature09012.html
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00:19 < Yocttar> genehacker, thats my whole point, I try not taking a class on it, just think of me as some african without any options of taking a class on the subject (altough in Israel biotech is developing rapidly), now what do I do, where do I start? I did read a biotech book, saw some lectures over the inet but still, knowledge and practical expirience are different.
00:32 < Utopiah> in browser CAM http://www.carveit.ca/partkam/ (unstable, cf http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106198 )
00:38 < Yocttar> heh cute xD
00:40 < Utopiah> Optimizing the marriage market: An application of the linear assignment model http://ow.ly/1UE6N
00:40 < Utopiah> OR ftw :>
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00:43 < Yocttar>  Error Sorry, your request could not be processed because the format of the URL was incorrect. Contact the Help Desk if the problem persists. [SD-001]
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00:44 < Utopiah> then http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0377221709004251
01:05 < Yocttar> http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/06/04/a-makerbot-self-replicates/ !
01:06 < Yocttar> roflcopter :D
01:54 < genehacker> no class available
01:55 < genehacker> that's no fun
01:56 < genehacker> I'm very much a beginner too
01:56 < genehacker> no experience here either
02:11 < Yocttar> >.><
02:11 < Yocttar> shame on you!
02:11 < Yocttar> I scratch your back, you scratch my? :D
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02:15 < Yocttar> I see..
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02:36 < Yocttar__> :O
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06:44 < kanzure> Yocttar: seriously, read the plasmid techniques.. that's "insertion"
06:46 < splicer> http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=19
06:51 < phryk> Om nom nom
06:52 < phryk> So I'mma go do some "normal people" stuff
06:53 < splicer> cu
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07:25 < Yocttar> So does any1 got some nifty plasmid techniques guide? I'll be looking myself as well right now, but if you do, drop a link ;)
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07:32 < fenn> you could start with protocol-online.org
07:33 < fenn> http://www.protocol-online.org/prot/Molecular_Biology/Transformation/index.html
07:34 < fenn> protocols don't really explain why you're doing what you're doing though
07:34 < fenn> i learned all this in school so i don't know any good online resources
07:34 < fenn> we have some molecular bio textbooks in ebook form if you want them
07:37 < fenn> tell me if you see anything you like: http://fennetic.net/irc/EBOOK.tree
07:38 < fenn> anyone else too
07:40 < Yocttar> I actually know the theoretical stuff
07:40 < Yocttar> not the practical
07:40 < Yocttar> ;D
07:40 < fenn> i'm not convinced
07:40 < Yocttar> i got ebooks and lectures on video
07:47 < fenn> prettier: http://fennetic.net/irc/EBOOK.tree.html
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07:53 < splicer> Berkeley has lab some lab preparation lectures.... they're on iTunes for instance. Most probably other universities have them too.   
07:53 < Utopiah> (grumble grumble iTunes grumble grumble)
07:54 < splicer> ((well... universities publish there)) 
07:56 < Yocttar> fenn, giving any one a list of all science books available won't help ;) btw, I do have many of those on my computer already.
07:58 < Yocttar> splicer: link? ^^
07:58 < kanzure> Yocttar: yes but have you read them?
07:58 < Utopiah> (I know, Im not criticizing you for sharing a nice hint, Im just disappointed that universities dont understand Apple lock-in mechanism which doesn't, to me at least, goes toward the free exchange of knowledge which should be the role of universities)
07:59 < kanzure> fenn: paul emailed me and said "oh well, it's probably your thought" when i told him about the smartphone dev legal bullshit i've run into (he's doing android apps these days)
07:59 < kanzure> *your fault
07:59 < Yocttar> kanzure I did.
07:59 < kanzure> i laughed though :) "oh well, it's probably your fault" is not his common textdump for me.. it's usually "oh well, most people just suck"
08:00 < kanzure> Yocttar: then how is it that you don't know about incubator chambers?
08:00 < kanzure> O_o
08:00 < Yocttar> the explain plasmids, vectors, proteins, hormones etc etc.... they say that some1 got made a vector, but dont tell you how exactly...
08:00 < kanzure> are you interested in synthesizing your own vector or buying one?
08:00 < kanzure> plasmid vector, i mean
08:01 < Yocttar> making
08:01 < Yocttar> synthesizing
08:02 < kanzure> so you want to synthesize your own plasmid vector, as well as use it? just making sure
08:03 < Yocttar> well eventually yes
08:03 < Yocttar> the question is
08:03 < Yocttar> if it is possible by simple means
08:03 < Yocttar> as in KISS ..
08:04 < splicer> yocttar: try searching on 'biology lab' in the iTunesU section. 
08:04 < Yocttar> not involving me having to buy stuff from other nations
08:04 < kanzure> hm
08:04 < kanzure> that'/s an interesting constraint :)
08:04 < kanzure> i like it
08:06 < Yocttar> ill repeat what I said before, think of me as an African guy, having nothing around but the Internet, a Computer and a junk yard... So... knowledge comes easy, practice - not. now will you help me?! :D
08:06 < splicer> you mean like foreign aid?
08:06 < Yocttar> lol
08:06 < Yocttar> you can say that! :D
08:12 < Yocttar> basically my question is that after 40 years, is there any simple method to create a vector and insert it in some bacteria or algae
08:13 < Yocttar> 40 years since it was first done
08:14 < kanzure> fenn: heh, apparently paul knows mitch free
08:14 < kanzure> see your inbox for fwd'd stuff
08:16 < fenn> it's going to be hard to get a sample of K12 E. coli without "buying stuff from other nations"
08:17 < fenn> and most standard biotech tools for that matter
08:17 < Yocttar> why do I need K12 e.coli
08:17 < fenn> it's like "why do i need a pentium processor"
08:17 < kanzure> nah, israel should have a stockpile of biotech equipment
08:17 < Yocttar> cant I just use any e.Coli?
08:17 < Yocttar> we do
08:17 < Yocttar> but its not what I want..
08:17 < kanzure> fenn: i think Yocttar is lying to us about his "knowledge"
08:18 < kanzure> fenn: so, did i tell you about the adopt-a-lab-rat idea?
08:18 < fenn> no
08:18 < kanzure> well.. basically, lab animals are divided into control groups and experimental groups
08:18 < kanzure> the control group is usually sacrificed at the end of a study
08:19 < fenn> slightly OT (re: mitch free and mfg.com) http://cloudfab.org
08:19 < kanzure> it would be a cute diybio gig i think to redistribute these rats and mice :)
08:19 < kanzure> yeah i met the cloudfab.com guys through suresh fernando, and then in person at sxsw
08:19 < kanzure> nick pinkston?
08:20 < kanzure> something like that
08:21 < fenn> huh. "The SolidScape process deposits melted wax using an ink jet system." then why the fuck have i never heard of it until now
08:22 < kanzure> inkjet can do melted wax? hm
08:22 < kanzure> i guess i never tried that
08:22 < kanzure> wonder if it's a custom wax
08:22 < fenn> i've been rambling about it for years now
08:24 < kanzure> "the singularity is near" has recently been serving as my laptop rest while i'm sitting on a bed or on my lap (because the heat exhaust thing points downward lap-wards)
08:24 < fenn> they have all of 2 case studies on the 'non-dental' page
08:24 < kanzure> the book was written based off of emails from the extropy-chat mailing list
08:24 < kanzure> i think it's time for a book from the diybio/om lists :P
08:24 < fenn> already written, see "Makers"
08:24 < kanzure> oh right
08:25 < kanzure> no way cory is the next ray clone
08:25 < kanzure> although he's about as popular i guess
08:25 < kanzure> even my dad had ray kurzweil and eric drexler books on his shelf
08:26 < kanzure> (that probably sounds biased, but they were books he didn't really focus on)
08:27 < fenn> i just want to point out that your grandma sends you books on AR
08:27 < fenn> your family is not normal
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08:28 < kanzure> my grandma was probably influenced by me, not the other way around
08:28 < fenn> same result
08:28 < kanzure> stupid tangled cause-effect relationships. blah
08:28 < kanzure> aristotle's "final cause" came into the night and stabbed me behind my back
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08:35 < kanzure> online blood testing service http://personalabs.com/
08:41 < fenn> did mitch actually read paul's novel?
08:41 < kanzure> probably not.. mitch didn't read my email (for all i know)
08:42 < Yocttar> "<kanzure> fenn: i think Yocttar is lying to us about his "knowledge"" I guess I won't get much help from you.
08:43 < kanzure> what?
08:43 < kanzure> why do you say that
08:43 < kanzure> i've expressed interest in helping you, but some things just don't add up
08:43 < kanzure> like.. why don't you know about incubators? or plasmid synthesis? you claimed to have read textbooks, but..
08:45 < Yocttar> As I've said, they never explain how... I know there are cutting enzymes, I know that I can make recombinant DNA hence a vector, I know I can put that vector in a bacteria or ucariot (typo) cell and make it replicate and create w\e protein whose code I inserted into it
08:46 < Yocttar> But I don't know _how_
08:46 < kanzure> sorry, i'm having trouble understanding what it is that you /do/ know if you don't know the "how"
08:46 < kanzure> the vocabulary?
08:47 < kanzure> ucariot -> eukaryote :)
08:47 < kanzure> i am not being mean- just trying to make sure i understand what's going on
08:48 < Yocttar> OK, let me give you an example... (sec looking for it)
08:48 < Yocttar> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d6phzXnRYo
08:48 < fenn> the process of making a recombinant organism is still long and complicated, even in 2010
08:48 < fenn> especially if you want to do everything from scratch
08:49 < fenn> you aren't going to find a step by step guide
08:49 < Yocttar> well thats a good answer...
08:49 < Yocttar> So how about making an easy process? :D
08:49 < kanzure> what?
08:49 < fenn> you really aren't going to find a series of youtube videos :\
08:50 < Yocttar> http://www.pacificbiosciences.com/
08:50 < kanzure> that's a supplier
08:50 < Yocttar> an example of DNA sequencing 
08:50 < Yocttar> simple to understand (to me at least)
08:50 < kanzure> oops, my bad
08:51 < kanzure> why is it simple to understand ? the page doesn't explain how it works..
08:51 < Yocttar> http://www.pacificbiosciences.com/video_lg.html
08:53 < Yocttar> you can make a cell that creates the phosphate linked nucleotides etc etc..
08:54 < fenn> Yocttar: i'd suggest doing some simple demo experiments like doing a digestion and running a gel before you go off and try to do full blown genetic engineering
08:55 < Yocttar> eventually, if you know programming, electronics, some optics and mechanics maybe, you can actually make that machine (eventually)
08:55 < fenn> the pacific bio people have been trying to get that thing to work for 10 years, and it still doesn't work right
08:55 < Yocttar> actually as far as I know, it already does
08:56 < kanzure> you're missing the point
08:56 < Yocttar> your idea sounds good.. so digestion? running a gel? :D
08:56 < kanzure> fenn: it occurs to me that people would pay a premium for us to make it seem like everything is simple, even when in reality it is not
08:57 < kanzure> do you remember xp_prg? and tons of others coming in here asking for a one-click solution?
08:57 < Yocttar> if its easy in software, mechanics and electronics, why wont it be easy here as well?
08:57 < kanzure> it's easy if you know what you're doing
08:57 < fenn> so this is some sort of one-time-customer information barrier scam?
08:57 < kanzure> why am i thinking about money? this is stupid
08:57 < kanzure> i guess
08:58 < kanzure> i think the universities have a monopoly on that market
08:58 < fenn> 'it's SO easy, try it for only $44.95" and then they try it and it doesn't work out as expected
08:58 < kanzure> people would pay it :(
08:58 < fenn> of course they would
08:58 < kanzure> get bre pettis and andrew hessel to do the marketing
08:58 < kanzure> hahah
08:58 < kanzure> "robots that make things!"
08:58 < kanzure> "cells that make things!"
08:58 < fenn> Yocttar: software mechanics and electronics were designed by humans. biology "just happened"
08:58 < fenn> biology doesn't neatly decompose into abstraction layers the way designed systems do
08:58 < kanzure> "robots that make things!" is their slogan but ironically it's the humans that make their makerbots
08:59 < fenn> in their defense, the laser cutter does most of the work
08:59 < fenn> but yeah they totally downplay the amount of fiddling required to get it to do anything useful
08:59 < Yocttar> well fenn, try to think of a way it will fit into abstraction layers ...
08:59 < fenn> Yocttar: it's not my job
09:00 < Yocttar> heh
09:00 < Yocttar> its the job of any biologist
09:00 < Yocttar> :)
09:00 < fenn> i'm not a biologist :P
09:00 < fenn> and anyway you're wrong
09:00 < Yocttar> biology enthusiast? 
09:00 < fenn> abstraction layers are the wrong approach to biology imho
09:00 < kanzure> fenn: but enough people are bashing their heads against it- like biobricks, sbml, "synthetic biology" bullshit
09:00 < kanzure> andrew ellington has your same stance, btw
09:01 < kanzure> and when drew endy or someone is "successful", they're going to make this huge stink about it
09:01 < fenn> i think biobricks could work
09:01 < parolang> All I can think of, reading the current discussion, is that I wonder to what extent examining real, flying birds had hindered the development of human flight.
09:01 < kanzure> Yocttar: you should focus on making the equipment necessary to run the protocols
09:01 < fenn> birds provided an existence proof, without which powered flight probably never would have happened
09:02 < kanzure> a genetic engineering project requires a PCR technique, so you should make the equipment necessary for PCR
09:02 < fenn> we would have jumped straight to rockets
09:02 < parolang> fenn: Could be.  But think we also tried to skipped a couple of generations in design and adopt nature's design.
09:02 < kanzure> did the chinese have gun powder and rockets before da vinci's time?
09:02 < fenn> yeah
09:02 < parolang> *skip
09:03 < Yocttar> kanzure, I could build it really but first I need to understand why do I need it.
09:03 < kanzure> i thought you already had the textbook smarts
09:03 < kanzure> >_>
09:03 < fenn> lulz
09:03 < kanzure> i am so confused
09:03  * fenn goes to buy some hummus because he's too lazy to make it from scratch
09:03 < Yocttar> I need to get to the stage where I actually need the PCR
09:04 < fenn> pcr is pretty basic
09:04 < fenn> if you dont need pcr you aren't doing anything
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09:04 < Yocttar> prior to PCR I need to make a vector right?
09:05 < kanzure> uh, no
09:05 < kanzure> i guess you could design your vector on your computer, if that makes you happy, but that's not really doing much
09:05 < kanzure> plasmid vector
09:05 < kanzure> (i am trying to stay away from the blanket "vector" term because it genuinely means the different methods.. whereas plasmid vector is somewhat more specific)
09:06 < Yocttar> but PCR is only used to duplicate DNA right? or im wrong?
09:08 < Yocttar> and in order to duplicate the DNA I want, I must manipulate it first somehow..
09:09 < Utopiah> I thought PCR implied selection the section you were interested in
09:09 < Utopiah> s/ion/ing/
09:09 < kanzure> Yocttar: if you want to just order a plasmid from a scientific supply company, you can try
09:10 < kanzure> but if you want to do it on your own, you're going to need to read protocols and build the equipment necessary to carry out the protocols
09:10 < kanzure> gel electrophoresis is a very important way to check your DNA, and without PCR, you don't have a lot of DNA to work with
09:10 < kanzure> usually they ship you a few nanograms or something
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09:16 < Yocttar> I'll go check around for gel electrophoresis , " digestion "? , PCR and biobricks for now  =)
09:17 < Yocttar> Thanks for all the help ;)
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09:36 < splicer> fenn: what did you mean by 'abstraction layers are the wrong approach to biology imho'?
09:38 < splicer> you meant that having he engineering approach is wrong?
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09:46 < fenn> i mean it's the wrong way to try to understand it
09:47 < fenn> certainly engineered systems can be built from simple subcomponents that exist already
09:47 < fenn> but we don't have that yet
09:47 < fenn> and trying to think it into a box is futile
09:51  * kanzure tries to put fenn into a box with his mental rays
09:51 < fenn> if orange juice came in durable reusable containers i probably wouldn't be cleaning it off the floor right now
09:51 < splicer> I think  understand how you mean... abstraction is ok but our models still suck... so abstracting by seeing the cell as a collection of cog wheels fails... because it's not a collection of cog wheels
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09:51 < fenn> splicer i think we could make a cell out of "cog wheels"
09:52 < fenn> but the cells that exist right now are more intertwingled
09:52 < splicer> that's what evolution does to you
09:55 < fenn> heh police were called out in response to noisebridge's "how magnets work: an explanation for juggalos"
09:59 < fenn> "fuckin' magnets... how do they work?" Magnets were like magic to me as a kid. You could move things across the table without actually touching them! I found that shit amazing and I still do. If you don't like that, have a dick for dinner. 
09:59 < kanzure> the muddling around that you have to do with biotech is a lot like the muddling in building mechanical equipment
09:59 < kanzure> i thought skdb was supposed to solve that pain point?
09:59 < kanzure> instead it introduced another (packaging and figuring out a simple packaging format)
09:59 < kanzure> (and getting people to actually package)
10:03 < fenn> skdb solves the reinventing-the-wheel problem, not the initial muddling
10:05 < kanzure> why does muddling take so long
10:06 < fenn> hofstadter's law
10:07 < fenn> it's because of all the yaks that need to be shaved
10:07 < Alystair> can someone explain the problem to me
10:07 < Alystair> as a 3rd party
10:07 < fenn> skdb can put the yaks in correct order but not eliminate them
10:07  * Alystair is now lost
10:08 < fenn> also, if nobody's solved the problem before, then you don't know the correct order to shave yaks
10:08 < kanzure> Alystair: secretly we're all tibetan monks hurding yaks on a hilltop in second life, or something
10:08 < fenn> it's a GNU thing
10:08  * kanzure nods
10:09 < splicer> fenn: when I have played with the 'perfect cell' idea... it seems to me that cell still isn't a traditional machine... in the sequential scaffolding biobricks sense.... but that one of the main features of that cell is that it's human readable.
10:09 < fenn> um. why do you say that?
10:09 < splicer> that the code is structured.. so one can get a grip of how it works
10:10 < splicer> because cells aren't machines... biobricks is a bit of an ugly hack on them.
10:10 < fenn> semantics
10:10 < kanzure> i wonder why they bothered to call it a "brick" 
10:10 < kanzure> fenn: never underestimate the inability of others to follow a line of conversation
10:11 < kanzure> Alystair: did you ask us to give an explanation of SKDB?
10:11 < fenn> any mechanical or electrical device that transmits or modifies energy to perform or assist in the performance of human tasks <-- i think it qualifies
10:11 < splicer> fenn: was that for me?
10:11 < fenn> sorry, that was the definition for "machine"
10:12 < splicer> yeah yeah... a cell is a machine... only not a neat sequential one
10:13 < splicer> you don't understand what I mean if I say biobricks are a hack on a cell?
10:13 < kanzure> warning: communication integrity is at an all time low
10:14 < kanzure> biobricks are snippits of DNA with metadata
10:14 < splicer> yes?
10:15 < splicer> biobricks is appying an engineering approach to biology.... biology isn't engineering.
10:16 < splicer> biobricks is not how the cell would solve that problem itself
10:17 < splicer> but because our models for how the cell patways works are still bad... it's as good as it gets for now
10:18 < kanzure> Alystair: ping?
10:21 < fenn> california got hot all of a sudden
10:22 < kanzure> austin hot?
10:23 < splicer> ;)
10:23 < lepton> *returns from idle* It's slightly hot in Colorado
10:25 < splicer> around 25C in north of sweden, that's hot for here
10:25 < lepton> So I finally have a bit of free time, after 33 days with no time off, and I'm switching our CNC over to EMC2, finally
10:25 < fenn> no, not even close
10:25 < fenn> http://www.accuweather.com/us/ca/menlo-park/94025/forecast-month.asp
10:26 < fenn> hm i thought for sure it was hotter than 80
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10:28 < kanzure> i need to figure out a way to defeat yak shaving
10:28 < kanzure> i thought getting other people to shave them would work
10:28 < fenn> "Brought to you by the #'s 9, 23 & 42 the Letters G, K & S, the color purple and the non-color black. "
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10:55 < kanzure> fenn: i'm still not reall sure how yaks even show up in the first place
10:55 < kanzure> they are a byproduct of previous human activity, right?
10:56 < genehacker> yaks?
10:57 < kanzure> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Y/yak-shaving.html
10:57 < kanzure> yak shaving:      [MIT AI Lab, after 2000: orig. probably from a Ren &  Stimpy episode.] Any seemingly pointless activity which is actually necessary to solve a problem which solves a problem which, several levels of recursion later, solves the real problem you're working on.
10:58 < kanzure> http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that.html
10:59 < kanzure> "I want to wax my car today" -> "oops my hose is still broken from the winter, i need a new one" -> need to go to home depot -> ""But Home Depot is on the other side of the Tappan Zee bridge and getting there without my EZPass is miserable because of the tolls."
10:59 < kanzure> -> need to borrow neighbor's ezpass -> "Bob won't lend me his EZPass until I return the mooshi pillow my son borrowed, though." -> stuffing has been falling out of the pillow, so you need to get some yak hair to restuff it
10:59 < kanzure> and the next thing you know, you're at the zoo, shaving a yak, all so you can wax your car.
11:01 < kanzure> i see scenarios like this quite often in machine shops and hackerspaces
11:02 < lepton> Indeed
11:02 < kanzure> before we install the electronics on the mechmate, we need to fix the welding error, but before we fix the welding error we need to go get the welding equipment from greg, and to do that we need to get permission from les (who isn't availably most of the time anyway)
11:02 < kanzure> and so on, and so forth
11:03 < kanzure> lepton: i'm still thinking about the issues i raised with you a while back re: how long it takes to get stuff done in a shop
11:03 < kanzure> or the time differential between how long it takes to get stuff done on a computer (sometimes) versus in hardware
11:03 < kanzure> i guess it helps when you already have all of the tools necessary and they are in working condition
11:03 < lepton> If there were 10,000 companies/groups like what I'm trying to do, then there might be a healthy ecosystem of indepent groups trying to solve their own problems, but also contracting to shave other group's yak's as a means of income and interest
11:03 < kanzure> but if that's your situation, you're already done, now aren't you?
11:04 < fenn> here's an example from my life: "i want to see in infrared! ok, lets make a heads-up display. gotta drive it somehow, how about a beagleboard? oh but the beagleboard isn't working, send it back and get a new one. while waiting for the beagleboard let's make a case for it instead of duct-tape and cable ties. ok let's use the makerbot at noisebridge, oh wait it's not big enough! ok let's make a mendel on the makerbot at noisebridge. (3 months pass 
11:04 < kanzure> btw did you ever send it back
11:04 < fenn> ... we find out hero running a business selling repraps on ebay
11:04 < fenn> no, i never sent it back :\
11:04 < kanzure> s/out/our/ ?
11:04 < lepton> Once you've accomplished a working set of design, programming, fixturing, etc, our CNC workflow increases by a factor of 2 - 6, I'd say
11:05 < fenn> yes
11:05 < lepton> so I think that reproducing other people's work (skdb apt-getting) could potentially be a lot easier than one's own origional work
11:05 < lepton> hey Fenn! We need to talk about that project
11:05 < kanzure> as fenn pointed out earlier, skdb just gets the yaks in the right order
11:05 < kanzure> the original package maintainer (or whatever) still needs to actually shave the yaks
11:05 < lepton> I've done a lot of machine vision work on Gumstix boards, same OMAP processor as the Beagleboard
11:06 < kanzure> and get everything sorted out
11:06 < lepton> but with a parallel camera interface
11:06 < fenn> really
11:06 < lepton> yeap
11:06 < fenn> what camera did you use?
11:06 < fenn> i might switch to gumstix eventually because it's smaller
11:06  * lepton pulls up old svn
11:06 < kanzure> i wonder how a yak shaving economy would work. they show up in the most unsuspecting places, so it's hard to figure out how any of this would be automated or streamlined
11:07 < fenn> yeah sometimes i think yak shaving is just what we're here for
11:07 < fenn> all that fancy dreaming up dreams would happen even if nobody existed
11:07 < lepton> My whole big scuba-hardware project I've been working on for the past two months is essentially yak shaving
11:08 < lepton> to get money, to further primary projects...
11:08 < kanzure> most business peeps would say "yak shaving? you should just spend money to have other people solve your problems for you!"
11:09 < fenn> easy to say for someone with money
11:09 < kanzure> i don't understand how having money fixes the problem though
11:09 < fenn> les explained this to me many times
11:09 < kanzure> fundamentally the problem is still the same
11:09 < fenn> the way it works is you minimize the number of checks you have to write
11:09 < fenn> if you can write one check and get it done, you do that no matter how much it costs
11:10 < fenn> at least that's the operating principle of 90% of american businesses
11:11 < kanzure> bah
11:11 < kanzure> i have money and the yaks aren't disappearing
11:11 < kanzure> i'm suspicious of this
11:12 < kanzure> in many cases, the solution to yak shaving is to just do something else entirely
11:12 < fenn> like go to the beach?
11:13 < kanzure> or migrating to california, yes
11:13 < fenn> Works For Me (tm)
11:13 < fenn> that'd be a good name for an outsourcing business
11:13 < kanzure> actually i meant it in another sense- like re-doing a strategy/plan/outline for a thingy that you're trying to do
11:14 < fenn> oh like TRIZ or some such
11:14 < lepton> fenn: the Micron/Aptina MT9P401
11:15 < fenn> "attack the problem by increasing the number of dimensions"
11:15 < fenn> lepton: this was your flocculation thingy?
11:16 < fenn> nice sensor
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11:18 < lepton> yeap
11:19 < lepton> We made 5 revisions of PCBs, I think
11:19 < lepton> Needed to have continuous operation for 2 years at a time
11:19 < lepton> Not that we had 2 years to test it
11:19 < kanzure> lepton: so how would yak trading work? "you shave my yak, i'll shave yours" but in practice what would this look like? just a codified way of keeping track of your yak herd so that other people can search for yaks they have already shaved?
11:19 < lepton> I've been wanting to do a head-up display with it for a while
11:21 < lepton> I wonder if some sort of seed/leach ratio similar to bit torrent sites could be useful
11:21 < kanzure> how would you codify the nature of a yak
11:21 < kanzure> i mean, you could have anti-yaks and yaks, and then you figure out how to maximize the number of yak cancellations
11:22 < fenn> it's just a task that needs to be done
11:22 < kanzure> but this seems a bit too simplicity
11:22 < kanzure> sure.. but like, some yaks are in the manufacturing space
11:22 < kanzure> and yuo might have the tool required for it
11:22 < kanzure> others have a different nature
11:22 < lepton> some are just programming
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11:22 < fenn> "SMOP"
11:23 < lepton> some are just "find the damn broken dependancy and make it compile"
11:23 < lepton> BTW we successfully compiled Arduino/LeafLabs STM32 FFT code for the light project :)
11:23 < fenn> many are "read the documentation until you understand the example code"
11:24 < fenn> what's the light project?
11:24 < kanzure> heh i wonder if we can use mechanical turk for this
11:24 < fenn> kanzure: have you actually used amazon turk for anything?
11:24 < kanzure> nope, but i was making some hits
11:25 < lepton> A burning man project to create a bunch of objects in a space that are sound responsive (doing frequency analysis) and can be programmed in a multiude of ways
11:25 < kanzure> i was thinking of using turk for "contact 10 of your friends and ask them this question: "
11:25 < fenn> it's a classic mistake for smart people to assume everybody is as smart as they are
11:26 < fenn> i dont get it.. you're trying to do a pyramid scheme starting with amazon turk workers?
11:26 < kanzure> as a way to find someone who can solve the problem
11:26 < kanzure> turn them into recruiters
11:26 < kanzure> anyway, it's a bad idea
11:26 < fenn> i dont think that's what they signed up for
11:27 < fenn> also, how do you kill the process tree once you've found a solution?
11:28 < fenn> reminds me of some story about the chinese emperor
11:28 < kanzure> what i'm thinking of is a website at yakherding.com or something
11:28 < kanzure> where you upload or submit your yaks
11:28 < Utopiah> o_0
11:28 < kanzure> but then are also somehow contributing to shaving
11:28 < Utopiah> I want some of the stuff you're taking
11:28 < kanzure> by shaving other people's aks, you get credit or something
11:28 < kanzure> Utopiah: what's up?
11:28 < Utopiah> p2p yakshaving, welcome to 2010
11:29 < fenn> duude, we're living in the future
11:29 < Utopiah> doing except that I didn't catch your answer regarding your Google Web History script 
11:29 < Utopiah> s/ /good /
11:29 < kanzure> re: rate limiting? they didn't.
11:30 < fenn> anyone used dragon dictate?
11:30 < kanzure> damien broderick uses it and swears by it
11:32 < fenn> umm.. anyone used sphinx?
11:32 < lepton> I set it up for a quadrapolegic friend
11:33 < lepton> but he got a lot better and never needed to use it much, thankfully
11:33 < lepton> ^Dragon, that is
11:33 < Utopiah> is there an international research project directory? listing by date (including current period) research projects being conducted thanks to public funding, also included discipline categories and such
11:34 < fenn> i would guess not, since international collaborations are between entities (so which entity would keep track of all of them?)
11:35 < fenn> NSF has a pretty good list of research being conducted in the US
11:35 < Utopiah> discussion about AmazonTurk made me think of it, Im consider creating HITS for that
11:35 < fenn> what is HITS?
11:35 < Utopiah> any link in particular?
11:35 < kanzure> a HITS is the unit that you have mechanical turk send out to its workforce
11:35 < Utopiah> Amazon way to say "task"
11:36 < fenn> http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/
11:36 < Utopiah> Human Intelligence Tasks or .HITs. 
11:37 < kanzure> "5secondyaks - yak shaving for the rest of us"
11:37 < Utopiah> hmmm I guess I could populate the DB live with the equivalent of the RSS feed http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_list.jsp?org=NSF&ord=rcnt for each country
11:42 < kanzure> maybe it should be tool-based only? "if user x has the tool required for yak A, and user y has the tool required for yak B, where user y has yak A and user x has yak B"
11:43 < kanzure> or it could be some sort of collaborative strategy thingy where people try to figure out a better set of steps to follow than the ones you've been taking 
11:44 < kanzure> "try x, y, and z to get your board working, and if that doesn't work, at least i've got you a bit further along" (?)
11:44 < Utopiah> sounds a bit like http://www.innocentive.com/ or http://www.ideo.com/
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11:53 < fenn> exchange yaks for whuffie
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11:54 < fenn> this is practically what freenode is anyway
11:56 < fenn> fun to see people i know on here http://www.voxforge.org/home/downloads/metrics
11:58 < fenn> huh they only need 70 hours of speech?
11:58 < fenn> er, 140 hours
11:58 < fenn> same diff
12:02 < fenn> it would be a lot easier to record speech samples if they weren't so totally weird and hilarious
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12:19 < kanzure> another example: the other day, dave wanted to go over to the shop to laser cut some parts with me
12:19 < kanzure> so we both drove over (separately) only to discover that the windows box hooked up to the cutter was acting all weird
12:20 < kanzure> so then we started to go on a hunt to fix the windows box..
12:20 < kanzure> but it turns out that someone else was replacing the graphics card (or something?)
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12:25 < fenn> that's a case of "if it ain't broke.."
12:28 < kanzure> but it is broke :(
12:32 < kanzure> i don't really have a good analogy to describe the problem (and i'm starting to obsess a little over it)
12:33 < kanzure> "yak shaving" is an allegory story thing
12:34 < fenn> my condolences
12:34 < fenn> have you considered donating a speech sample today?
12:34 < kanzure> i don't get it. is this about oxforge.org?
12:34 < kanzure> *voxvorge.org
12:34 < kanzure> god damn it
12:34 < kanzure> voxforge.org
12:34 < fenn> http://www.voxforge.org/home/read
12:35 < fenn> it's amazing they have so few samples
12:35 < fenn> since literally anyone with a microphone can spend five minutes and upload a sample
12:35 < fenn> there's a mechanical turk task right there
12:36 < kanzure> hm seems to require java
12:36 < fenn> haha then the speech software would only understand indian accents
12:36 < kanzure> mechanical turk actually has a disproportionate number of north american / western hemisphere folks on it
12:39 < Utopiah> btw you can't request tasks if you are not american
12:39  * Utopiah didn't suggest it was organized slavery though :-#
12:40 < fenn> how do they know you're american?
12:40 < fenn> and why does it matter?
12:40 < kanzure> someone paid for some HITS for them to report it
12:40 < kanzure> also, amazon keeps some data on it
12:40 < kanzure> wut? http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/gec/ "A Programming Language for Genetic Engineering of Living Cells"
12:41 < phryk> I don't like microsoft.
12:41 < kanzure> http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/s0677975/synbiotool/
12:42 < Utopiah> fenn: AFAIK for taxes
12:42 < kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbw
12:42 < kanzure> eww it depends on .NET
12:42 < phryk> "A prototype Windows tool for [...]"
12:42 < phryk> Sucks butt.
12:42 < phryk> I think I am never going to use gec ;P
12:43 < kanzure> it seems to be built on top of sbml
12:43 < kanzure> i don't understand what they think it does, though
12:43 < phryk> Also I'm pretty sure we'll get something gnooey about that^^
12:43 < kanzure> as far as i can tell, this tool is useless
12:44 < kanzure> there was a paper: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79443
12:44 < kanzure> but i doubt it will explain what it is
12:50 < Yocttar> Nighty night everyone ;) thanks again for the guidance!
12:50 < genehacker> hopefully microsoft won't patent us or run winblows in our cells...
12:51 < Utopiah> that's what the big pharma is for
13:01 < kanzure> http://japhr.blogspot.com/2009/03/yak-shaving-is-new-dependency-hell.html (the article itself is just a particular instance of yak shaving)
13:01 < kanzure> http://blog.roogles.com/2008/06/on-shaving-yak.html
13:01 < kanzure> "Monk Number Twenty-two," Gaspar said to Joshua, "you shall begin by learning how to sit."
13:01 < kanzure> "I can sit," I said.
13:01 < kanzure> "And you, Number Twenty-one, will shave the yak."
13:02 < kanzure> "That's just an expression, right?"
13:02 < kanzure> It wasn't.
13:02 < kanzure> haha
13:04 < kanzure> http://scanty-redis.heroku.com/past/2007/12/12/in_defense_of_yak_shaving/
13:05 < kanzure> heh, a funny instance: http://www.lafferty.ca/2005/11/23/yak-shaving/
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13:08 < kanzure> "Possibly the second-greatest act of yak shaving in history was Don Knuth temporarily stopping work on his magnum opus The Art of Computer Programming in order to write something to do better typesetting for it. Eight years later, he released TEX. Then he resumed work on the book."
13:08 < fenn> d'eaux
13:10 < Utopiah> so : clear focus + having enough resources -> going as far away from your goal as you have to finally reach it
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16:57 < Trooem> How's it going Kanzure.
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18:00 < Trooem> if only we got along...
18:07  * Trooem is watching the shining.
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19:23  * kanzure is back
19:23 < kanzure> hm where did genehacker go?
19:23 < QuantumG> I'm gunna take a guess it wasn't to hack genes
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19:24 < kanzure> i showed him some shop space
19:35 < Trooem> kanzure.
19:38 < Trooem> i've missed ya buddy. how's it going?
19:39 < Trooem> come on, let's get along.
19:39 < QuantumG> http://lesswrong.com/lw/i5/bayesian_judo/
19:39 < Trooem> we never would've had problems if we met in person. It was all about the trust issue wasn't it.
19:40 < QuantumG> shut your hole Trooem
19:40 < Trooem> who the heck are you QuantumG
19:40 < Trooem> you got problems with me?
19:40 < QuantumG> I'm the guy telling you to stop talking to the guy who is obviously ignoring you
19:41 < QuantumG> if you prefer, I'll just ignore you too
19:41 < Trooem> ....
19:42 < Trooem> don't tell me i was the only wrong one.
19:43 < Trooem> come on kanzure. I may have something you might find incredibly interesting.
19:44 < Trooem> how about i go straight there to texas.
19:44 < QuantumG> what part of /ignore don't you understand?
19:44 < QuantumG> he can't hear you
19:44 < Trooem> what part of i don't give a damn don't you understand.
19:44 < Trooem> whatever.
19:45 < strages> kanzure: I don't know anything about hektor, tell me more.
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19:57 < Torreto> you may want to hear me out kanzure
19:58 < Torreto> that's just fine, your loss :P
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20:00 < thesnark> What an ass
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20:01 < kanzure> oh, i'm not ignoring Trooem
20:01 < kanzure> i'm just not around
20:01 < Torreto> oh
20:01 -!- Torreto is now known as Trooem
20:01 < Trooem> ok
20:01 < kanzure> strages: hektor is this whiteboard pulley system thingy
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20:09 < parolang> So...do you guys IRC each other within the same hackerspace?
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20:09 < kanzure> parolang: it's been known to happen
20:10 < bkero> Yea, especially at NYCResistor
20:10 < parolang> heh
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20:10 < kanzure> bkero: you're nowhere near nycresistor :P
20:10 < parolang> xkcd could get a couple of comics out of that :)
20:10 < bkero> kanzure: Yea, but I was there before. :P
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20:11 < kanzure> i think randall has this explicit "if you tell me the idea, i will never ever use it" policy.. so you should let him come up with it on his own
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21:01 < Alystair> in hacklabto as well
21:01 < kanzure> what?
21:01 < Alystair> if people are in hack mode
21:01 < Alystair> @parolang
21:01 < kanzure> ah
21:02 < Alystair> shit it's late no more IRC
21:02 < Alystair> need to finish typing
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22:14 < Yocttar> Morning!
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23:31 < Utopiah> (OVP: Fast Simulation, Free Open Source Models. Virtual Platforms for software development http://www.ovpworld.org/ )
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