--- Day changed Wed Jun 16 2010
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00:42 < Utopiah> another article using "yak shaving" http://sheddingbikes.com/posts/1276624594.html (on the nice tiny Fossil-SCM)
00:49 < jrayhawk> Huh, that looks handy.
00:50 < Utopiah> (my notes on Fossil http://fabien.benetou.fr/Tools/Fossil?action=print )
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02:32 < Utopiah> Go To University, Not For CS http://sheddingbikes.com/posts/1275258018.html
02:35 < Utopiah> (IMHO, f*cking brillant blog post...)
02:42 < faceface> my web design friend sent me some unsolicited feedback on http://gnusha.org/
02:42 < faceface> just passing it on in case it's remotely usefull
02:42 < faceface> Is that mono-space? That is a long article. I'm not sure who its aimed at. The type isn't as bad or as hard to read as I first thought but I think it is a deliberately technical looking which is mistake if this is an introduction to n00bs.
02:43 < faceface> The copy (the little I have read) is good, but I think a sharp summary is missing.
02:43 < faceface> It could benefit from some clear heading, and I'm not sure about including links in the middle of articles (although I don't have a real solution, maybe further reading section?)
02:43 < faceface> Also the three youtube pannels are blank on my machine, with nothing to tell mat they are there.
02:45 < Yocttar> Utopiah - not a very much convincing article - only covers one side of the story ;)
02:46 < Utopiah> care to elaborate
02:46 < Yocttar> and the education today imho MUST have a revolution..
02:46 < Utopiah> sure
02:47 < Yocttar> about the 1 side, its obvious the editor is on the "learn in the university" side, almost nothing objective in that arcticle
02:47 < Yocttar> article*
02:48 < Yocttar> sure people need to get some sort of education, but not the way we get it today
02:49 < Yocttar> most of the time people use only 5% of what they've learned
02:49 < Yocttar> which means you waste more then 3.5 years of your best years for nothing.
02:49 < Yocttar> (this is the general case today)
02:50 < Utopiah> I think the dichotomy he's doing is IT job straight out of high school for self-taught genious programmer vs. going to uni to broaden your scope and for example use your CS skills for bioinformatics
02:50 < Utopiah> or just because IT in itself is not enough and plainly a risky bet if you dont understand the industry
02:50 < Utopiah> (which is most likely the case when you are very young and still discovering the technology, not the economy)
02:51 < Utopiah> I dont think he is against p2p uni, self-education, etc
02:53 < Yocttar> well, the way I get it, he wants everyone to go to the uni.
02:54 < Utopiah> the way I get it is that you are a very young self-tought programmer he thinks he'll conquer the world with his mad asm/Haskell skills ... and that's very short sighted so beware
02:54 < Utopiah> (I don't mean "you" as Yocttar ;)
02:56 < Yocttar> I kinda agree on that part
02:58 < Yocttar> but in my country (Israel), getting to that state of mind is pretty difficult, if you are a good programmer, the army will put you in the right place (where you will learn CS ofc, along with life science)
02:59 < Utopiah> in the short run it's a good bet
03:00 < Utopiah> and the truth is, IMHO, if you can educate yourself though other means, as you suggested, it might very well be the best option
03:01 < Utopiah> but it's not necessarily easy
03:04 < Yocttar> and the harder the task you accomplish, the better you become. (just like in video games)
03:06 < Utopiah> supposing you learn from your mistakes
03:08 < QuantumG> or even successes
03:09 < Utopiah> maybe harder to understand
03:09 < Utopiah> I mean that often you can test why sth failed but sucess you dont really know which specific component or the the network of actions lead to it, no?
03:10 < Utopiah> (except if you can reproduce the sucess several times)
03:12 < QuantumG> either way to have to assign kudos
03:13 < QuantumG> or, if you prefer, blame
03:13 < splicer> (You test both success and failiure scenarios the same by setting up falsifiable hypothesis.)
03:14 < jrayhawk> University, as with all things in life, is a twentieth as effective if you do not have a self-actualized value system with which to establish goals for yourself to pursue.
03:14 < jrayhawk> Schools, unlike most things in life, are specifically structured to undermine your capacity to self-actualize.
03:15 < jrayhawk> Thus you cannot enter university with the expectation that you will be better for it for no other reason than that it is university.
03:15 < QuantumG> I thought you were going to say it was a degenerative form of bending for a minute there
03:16 < jrayhawk> s/cannot/cannot safely/
03:16 < Utopiah> splicer: but with failure you remove a component and it fails, so it's easy to check, but sucess you only know that the system overall works as expected
03:17 < Utopiah> you dont necessarily each step that lead to it and why
03:18 < Utopiah> you dont necessarily know each step that lead to it and why
03:19 < splicer> Utopiah: so you remove the component you think leads to success and see what happens. 
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03:21 < Utopiah> but then the system don't work
03:21 < splicer> and then you have a clue as to why
03:21 < Utopiah> you have multiple variables to judge efficiency, it's more complex then work/dont work
03:22 < splicer> i don't think science knows of another way
03:22 < QuantumG> there's statistical analysis
03:22 < QuantumG> basically the passive version of what you just said
03:22 < Utopiah> sure, Im just saying it's more costly 
03:32 < jrayhawk> Re: Gnusha.org design: I think that, unless it switches to centered text, font colors/sizes/weights/typefaces/styles that change every paragraph, and adds lots of tangential incomprehensible charts, it'll never be taken as seriously as timecube.
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03:39 < splicer> gnusha.org design: very transhumanist
03:43 < QuantumG> Dear NASA employees, things you hear while hanging at the water cooler are not "facts". kthxbye.
03:44 < QuantumG> I'd love to extend that to internal briefings too
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04:28 < kanzure> faceface: maybe your design friend would like to do better for me?
04:28 < kanzure> jrayhawk: +1 for mentioning timecube
04:28 < Utopiah> for you I bet no, for the cause you defended during H+ summit, sure ;)
05:28 < splicer> kanzure: why don't you just throw it up in a cms like wordpress or something?
05:37 < Utopiah> ? http://test.brandchemistry.com.au/diy-chemistry/
05:39 < splicer> (chemistry as in chemists-shop/drug-store)
05:40 < kanzure> because content management systems are for wimps
05:40 < splicer> i forgot
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06:03 < kanzure> hi pmetzger 
06:04 < kanzure> (08:07:06 AM) Brian Degger: i am interested in the possibility SKDB, where you ask the system for a thing and it gives a prediction on whenthat will occur
06:04 < kanzure> looks like someone doesn't understand :/
06:05 < pmetzger> Morning, Kanzure.
06:06 < pmetzger> Prediction is difficult, especially of the future.
06:06 < pmetzger> For myself, even my record of predicting the past is flawed.
06:07 < kanzure> no i mean he got the idea of skdb wrong ;-)
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06:10 < kanzure> hi JayDugger 
06:10 < JayDugger> Good morning, kanzure.
06:10 < splicer> is time a parameter in skdb, as in 'with this tool this widget will take s seconds to manufacture'?
06:11 < pmetzger> That could depend on multiple parameters.
06:11 < kanzure> not at the moment, although time estimates might be doable (they will probably be "expected worst-case scenario estimates")
06:11 < kanzure> or expected best case scenario estimates (but these are useless since best case scenarios don't happen all the time)
06:16 < kanzure> pmetzger: would an atom-by-atom API for constructing designs of nanotech be useful to you?
06:17 < kanzure> something like carbon[12].append(some_nitrogen) or even higher-level stuff for 100 to 1000-atom large constructs
06:18 < pmetzger> It would be difficult to do. Unfortunately, atoms aren't as easy to manipulate as tinkertoys. :|
06:18 < pmetzger> I mean, if that was possible it would be cool, but chemistry doesn't work exactly like machining. :|
06:19 < pmetzger> Ultimately, designs will have to come with construction instructions, but I think we'll need more research before we understand what those instructions look like.
06:20 < pmetzger> In particular, right now we know approximately how to construct diamondoid blocks, which can be used to build crude machines. We don't know how to construct things like the very precise bearings you find in Nanosystems, though we're reasonably sure they can be built.
06:20 < pmetzger> (FYI, I suspect what we'll do is build fairly large, inefficient machines out of diamondoid and then use them to build better.)
06:21 < kanzure> have you seen this before? the productive nanosystems movie thingy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg
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06:23 < pmetzger> yes.
06:23 < splicer> stupid question: Are there other large non repetitive molecules than DNA and proteins?
06:23 < pmetzger> Yes. There are other aperiodic polymers, both in nature and manufactured.
06:23 < pmetzger> the manufactured ones tend to be randomly aperiodic.
06:24 < splicer> ah.. thanks
06:24 < pmetzger> (the result of polymerizing two monomers with random attachment)
06:24 < pmetzger> in nature, there is of course RNA, and there are a bunch of carbohydrates that are composed of multiple sugars (though not, to my knowledge, in a designed aperiodic pattern.)
06:26 < pmetzger> There may be others in nature.
06:31 < kanzure> i uploaded more stuff: http://designfiles.org/papers/nanotech/
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06:39 < kanzure> hi LilxHK 
06:39 < LilxHK> hi
06:39 < kanzure> pmetzger: have you ever met freitas?
06:40 < pmetzger> yes.
06:40 < pmetzger> multiple times.
06:40 < kanzure> what's he like in person? i haven't run into him yet
06:40 < pmetzger> He's fairly sedate.
06:40 < kanzure> but KSRM is like my bible for skdb-related stuff
06:41 < pmetzger> He tends to read his talks off of a piece of paper. He's insanely thorough.
06:41 < kanzure> "insanely thorough" indeed
06:41 < pmetzger> You've read his Nanomedicine books?
06:41 < kanzure> no, but i've read (most of) KSRM
06:42 < pmetzger> I haven't read KSRM. I keep meaning to.
06:42 < pmetzger> I suppose I should buy a copy first. :)
06:46 < JayDugger> pmetzger: Did you work at or visit Zyvex?
06:49 < pmetzger> No, never been there.
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06:49 < pmetzger> Not in either incarnation of Zyvex...
06:52 < faceface> kanzure: quite possibly.. I'll ask him
06:52 < pmetzger> BTW, that nanofactory animation is both good and bad. It is cool in that it gives you the general idea, but it has some inaccuracies in it. For example, what's holding the acetylene molecules onto that rotor?
06:53 < pmetzger> How do "grippers" hold on to a depassivated diamond block without reacting with it?
06:53 < pmetzger> this is not to say that the concepts are wrong at a high level, but they are often wrong at a low level.
06:54 < kanzure> oh. i liked it because of the low level stuff.. the other stuff is "obvious"
06:54 < pmetzger>  :)
06:54 < pmetzger> not every part of the low level stuff is wrong, just a bunch of it. The idea of sorting rotors is correct, for example.
06:54 < pmetzger> or at least a real idea. :)
06:56 < pmetzger> I had a conversation once with Merkle about taking molecule sorting further and making sure you ended up with no carbon thirteen or tritium or what have you in your final product to reduce the risk of radiation damage from internal decays. Might not be worth it, I never calculated the internal damage vs. cosmic ray rate. (I suppose I could look both of those up in Nanosystems. I'
06:56 < pmetzger> ve been lazy.)
06:57 < kanzure> what's eugen's jabber server and username?
06:58 < pmetzger> I'm asking him if he minds, hang on...
06:59 < pmetzger> (He doesn't answer IMs very fast.)
06:59 < pmetzger> If you have his gmail address though you already know.
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07:02 < kanzure> oh
07:02 < kanzure> that's kinda disappointing actually
07:02 < pmetzger> ???
07:03 < kanzure> it implies that he uses the gmail.com interface
07:03 < pmetzger> not really.
07:03 < pmetzger> they have jabber servers.
07:03 < kanzure> right, which is what i use 8)
07:03 < pmetzger> I don't know what interface he uses, but I've used gmail.com sometimes with ichat or pidgin...
07:05  * kanzure nods
07:05 < kanzure> does anyone know what's up with this? http://trillennium.com/
07:05 < kanzure> they told me to contact them
07:08 < pmetzger> looks pretty random.
07:08 < pmetzger> back in a couple of hours.
07:19 < JayDugger> Business consultants?
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07:21 < JayDugger> I've not heard of them before now.
07:22 < kanzure> the guy was very enthusiastic to meet me and gave me four or five business cards to emphasize how much he wanted a follow-up
07:23 < JayDugger> I really don't know enough about business consulting and "process engineering" to give good advice.
07:25 < JayDugger> In fact, I've deleted more lines than I've typed on this subject. Rather than pad my ignorance with text, I'll just keep quiet.
07:52 < kanzure> http://idsa.org/ industrial designers society of america
07:52 < kanzure> http://www.idsa.org/absolutenm/templates/?a=5120&z=31
07:52 < kanzure> DIY: Threat or Opportunity
07:52 < kanzure> "With the advance of technology and globalization, anyone can design, customize and build almost anything. Whether it is catering to one or catering to the masses, the DIY movement has created a multi-billion dollar market. DIY is a means of self-expressions, and has inspired companies like Nike, T-Mobile and Apple to empower and engage customers."
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07:53 < kanzure> hahah $1700 to attend? wtf
07:53 < kanzure> jrayhawk: that's in your neck of the woods, fyi
07:55 < kanzure> haa! smari is going to have to get a new name
07:55 < kanzure> http://tangible.media.mit.edu/
07:55 < kanzure> i <3 media lab
07:55 < kanzure> http://tangible.media.mit.edu/project.php?recid=122
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07:59 < kanzure> hi parolang, hi eridu 
07:59 < parolang> hey
08:00  * parolang is getting his computer today :)
08:04 < kanzure> i have no idea what's going on here: http://fare.tunes.org/plan.txt
08:04 < kanzure> "I won't tell you my Vietnamese name, because it doesn't fit the iso-latin-1 encoding."
08:05 < kanzure> http://ciev.meta.ph/
08:05 < kanzure> http://meta.ph/or/
08:08 < eridu> kanzure: hello
08:09 < kanzure> stalk: François-René Rideau
08:09 < kanzure> stalk: Ðang-Vu Bân
08:10 < parolang> He at least used to be on freenode.
08:11 < parolang> As `fare'.
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08:55 < mheld> I'm planning on getting one pragprog book, should I pick up Programming Scala or Seven Languages in Seven Weeks?
08:56 < kanzure> hm.. scala is kinda trendy these days
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08:57 < mheld> well, I'm learning scala regardless
08:57 < mheld> and I come from a FP background 
08:58 < mheld> I just don't know whether or not I want to dive deep into scala or learn a bit about a few languages I haven't had a chance to dive into
08:58 < mheld> clojure won't be too new to me
08:58 < mheld> ruby I'm great with
08:58 < mheld> io should be pretty fine (JS)
08:58 < mheld> and I've got some erlang experience
08:59 < mheld> it's mostly prolog, haskell, and scala that I'd be playing around with
08:59 < mheld> and I want an epub
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09:33 < pmetzger> Fare is a lisp hacker. Was at H+.
09:38 < kanzure> yeah, i had his card and was trying to do a follow-up thing
09:42 < pmetzger> He works for ITA. Hacks airline software for them in common lisp. I think they're in negotiations to be bought by google.
09:42 < pmetzger> I'm making up new cards. They say only "Mad Scientist" and my email. :)
09:47 < kanzure> ANGRY scientist, i'm an ANGRY scientist
09:49 < fenn> fwiw many bacteria use a specific sequence of sugars in a chain in order to identify themselves
09:49 < pmetzger> I'm just mad.
09:49 < fenn> as part of their LPS coat
09:49 < pmetzger> fenn: I thought many eukaryotes did that too.
09:49 < pmetzger> though my molbio foo is weak.
09:50 < pmetzger> s/foo/fu/
09:51 < pmetzger> In vertibrates, we use MHC for a similar purpose, but that's a protein...
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10:03 < kanzure> how much money should i ask for
10:04 < fenn> over 9000!!!
10:09 < kanzure> not helpful
10:09 < fenn> pff whatever
10:10 < kanzure> how much would it cost to get you out of the business world
10:10 < fenn> a plane ticket to brazil
10:10 < kanzure> why brazil?
10:10  * fenn shrugs
10:11 < kanzure> huh. okay.
10:11 < kanzure> that's actually not much..
10:11 < kanzure> would a rickety boat be acceptable?
10:11 < fenn> no
10:11 < kanzure> heh
10:11 < fenn> actually i would like to have some money of my own, so as not to be constantly at the mercy of whatever
10:12 < kanzure> sure
10:12 < kanzure> cool andrew did a ted talk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0
10:13 < pmetzger> TEDx.
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10:13 < fenn> aka faketed
10:13 < fenn> oh wait that's bil, lol
10:14 < fenn> fakefaketed
10:15 < kanzure> heh
10:16 < pmetzger> some TEDx talks end up on the main TED site.
10:18 < fenn> hum i guess i dont have nanosystems after all
10:20 < pmetzger> my mantra: easily bought cheap used via amazon. :)
10:20 < fenn> but that's just some pieces of paper, not THE BOOK
10:20 < pmetzger> ?
10:20  * pmetzger doesn't quite understand.
10:20 < fenn> when will people learn that having an end product laying around is not equivalent to owning it
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10:21 < pmetzger> ah, you mean you want elecronic copy.
10:21 < fenn> say an iphone crashes in the year 1969, can they do anything useful with it? not really
10:21 < pmetzger> but a scan is in turn not as good as having the original source...
10:21 < fenn> bullshit
10:21 < kanzure> well, "a scan" maybe..
10:22 < pmetzger> Very hard to OCR the equations correctly.
10:22 < kanzure> then latex them
10:22 < pmetzger> and presumably one would, in an ideal world, like to have many of them as a mathematica notebook... :)
10:22 < pmetzger> ah, but latexing them = having the source, if only by reconstructing it. :)
10:22 < fenn> i'd rather they not use hieroglyphics in the first place
10:22 < pmetzger> still, I have to confess that I don't understand what we're talking about really. :)
10:22  * kanzure nods
10:23 < pmetzger> heiroglyphics?
10:23 < kanzure> math
10:23 < kanzure> math symbology crap
10:23 < fenn> those funny almost arbitrary squiggles that academics like to use in order to frustrate non-academics
10:23 < pmetzger> the language of physics is math. hard to convey math without symbols.
10:23 < fenn> hard to convey math with hieroglyphics
10:23 < kanzure> :)
10:23 < fenn> it's so non-rigorous
10:24 < pmetzger> you prefer what, formal systems?
10:24 < fenn> a defined syntax that i could look up wtf X stands for would be nice
10:24 < pmetzger> having worked with formal systems, you don't want a book written in, say, the calculus of inductive constructions...
10:25 < pmetzger> I have to confess I have no trouble reading the math in "Nanosystems". My main problem with Drexler is that he hasn't updated the book in 20 years, but it is still almost completely relevent.
10:25 < fenn> any ideas why a virtualbox vm would only download ~50kB of stuff each time i do apt-get and then stall? (i can keep doing it over and over and get another 50kB each time)
10:25 < kanzure> hrm
10:25 < pmetzger> tcpdump is your friend.
10:26 < pmetzger> run tcpdump on the host and watch all the packets. it usually tells you what has happened.
10:26 < pmetzger> or if you're less macho, whatever they renamed ethereal to...
10:26 < fenn> host is windows
10:26 < pmetzger> run tcpdump on the guest then.
10:26 < pmetzger> less good but beggars can't be choosers...
10:27 < pmetzger> I presume this is debian or ubuntu?
10:27 < kanzure> he can't install software on the windows box i think (but how'd he get virtualbox?)
10:28 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-221-40.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:28 < fenn> i'm admin on the windows box
10:28 < fenn> i just dont know how to use windows :P
10:28 < pmetzger> you show great taste in your ignorance.
10:28 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-78-8-87-54.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:28 < pmetzger> If I could forget how to use windows I would.
10:32 < fenn> well i see packets going by but i dont see any reason they should stop
10:35 < fenn> http seems to work fine in a web browser.. wtf
10:36 < kanzure> http://www.geyservac.com/articles/vacuum-beginners-guide.html A Complete Beginner's Guide to Vacuum History, Terminology, & Technology
10:36 < kanzure> Technology
10:36 < kanzure> fenn: yes but are you loading >50kb
10:36 < kanzure> in the browser
10:36 < fenn> yeah
10:36 < kanzure> hrm
10:36 < kanzure> what are the repositories?
10:36 < kanzure> in /etc/apt/sources.list
10:37 < kanzure> standard stuff?
10:37 < pmetzger> As I said, when I have this sort of issue, I find tcpdump is the only way to go.
10:37 < fenn>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0
10:37 < fenn> hm
10:37 < pmetzger> for example, it might turn out that you're having window scale negotiation issues with the server
10:37 < pmetzger> or some other crap like that.
10:37 < fenn> copy paste doesnt work huh
10:37 < fenn> us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ lucid main restricted (etc)
10:37 < pmetzger> of course, if you can't read the output, it won't do you any good...
10:38 < kanzure> looks like a fairly standard repo
10:38 < fenn> yeah i just downloaded the cd iso and booted it up
10:38 < fenn> apparently vim didnt make the cut
10:38 < kanzure> what about vi?
10:38 < fenn> god knows what else they put in the other 699 MB
10:38 < kanzure> porn
10:39 < fenn> weird. vi works and shows the VIM splash screen
10:39 < kanzure> ok, i have enough data
10:39 < kanzure> theory: windows makes fenn more stoopid
10:39 < fenn> it might be the drugs they put in the water
10:39 < pmetzger> I presume there is a firewall between you and the internet?
10:40 < fenn> must.. satisfy customer ... requirements
10:40 < fenn> yeah there's  a firewall. you think they are squelching ubuntu.com?
10:40 < pmetzger> My suggestion: turn off tcp window scaling and see if it suddenly works.
10:40 < pmetzger> no, my suspicion is that it fucks up TCP window scaling.
10:40 < fenn> how do i do that?
10:40 < pmetzger> sysctl.
10:41 < pmetzger> hang on, I'll find you the right sysctl.
10:41 < kanzure> oh on ubuntu?
10:41 < fenn>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0
10:41 < fenn> gah
10:41 < fenn>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0
10:41 < fenn> fuck this
10:41 < kanzure> ahah
10:42 < fenn> sysctl net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 sound right?
10:42 < pmetzger> no.
10:42 < pmetzger> but I'll know when I've read the man page.
10:42 < fenn> echo "net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=-">>syctl.conf ?
10:43 -!- uniqanomaly__ [~ua@78.9.74.52] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:43 < pmetzger> no, type sysctl -w net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=0
10:43 < pmetzger> you can add that to sysctl.conf later.
10:43 < pmetzger> but first just try it out.
10:43 < pmetzger> and I found it just as you typed that.
10:44 < pmetzger> once you've turned off window scaling, try an apt-get and see what happens.
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10:44 < pmetzger> it is easier to diagnose this with tcpdump but I take it you can't read raw TCP packets...
10:45 < pmetzger> if window scaling isn't the issue, my next guess is path mtu discovery fuckage.
10:45 < pmetzger> but I don't know if it would be easy to fix that.
10:45 < pmetzger> so anyway, did it do anything?
10:45 < fenn> no
10:46 < pmetzger> can you check that it was set (use sysctl -a and grep for the setting)
10:46 < fenn> says 0
10:47 < pmetzger> okay, so it took.
10:47 < pmetzger> really the right thing to do here is to run tcpdump...
10:47 < pmetzger> I will walk you through that.
10:47 < fenn> ok
10:47 < pmetzger> first, is tcpdump installed on the box?
10:47 < pmetzger> if it isn't, we have recursive fuckage since apt-get won't work. :)
10:48 < fenn> yeah tcpdump is installed
10:48 < fenn> and i can install things, it just takes a while
10:48 < pmetzger> okay, I presume the fake eithernet controller is en0?
10:48 < fenn> eth0
10:48 < pmetzger> that's what I meant.
10:48 < pmetzger> so you want to do tcpdump -i eth0 host whateverthenameofthepackageserveris
10:48 < pmetzger> in one window
10:48 < pmetzger> while you do an apt-get in another
10:49 < fenn> so i see some stuff like 10:47:28.1234134 IP lotus.ovt.com.domain > fenn-virtualbox.local.40876: 34458 NXDomain 0/1/0 (100)
10:49 < pmetzger> I'll want to see the last few packets from the connection.
10:49 < pmetzger> if you don't do the "host blah" thing it will show you *all* packets on the interface
10:49 < fenn> fenn-virtualbox.local.mdns > 224.0.0.251.mdns: 0 PTR (QM)? 2.2.0.10.in-addr.arpa. (39)
10:49 < pmetzger> that one is again not a packet from your package server. :)
10:50 < pmetzger> you want to see only the ones from that server so you need the "host" restriction
10:50 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
10:50 < fenn> the package server changes each time, it's named after dead scifi authors or something
10:51 < fenn> ok i will just grep for canonical.com
10:51 < pmetzger> nah.
10:51 < pmetzger> buffering will kill you then.
10:51 < fenn> seems to work ok
10:51 < pmetzger> just nail down the server by editing the apt config file.
10:52 < pmetzger> if it works it works.
10:52 < fenn> anyway i can tell you the last lien if you want
10:52 < pmetzger> I'll want to see the last three or four packet exchanges
10:52 < fenn> 10:51:30.123123 IP drescher.canonical.com.www > fenn-virtualbox.local.56872: Flags [.], seq 178061:179481, ack 420 win 65535, length 1420
10:53 < fenn> oh maybe i can just ssh from inside the virtualbox
10:53 < kanzure> hah
10:53 < fenn> ok that works
10:55 < pmetzger> do you have the last four packet exchanges in both directions?
10:55 < pmetzger> it is hard without seeing both the data packets and the acks...
10:55 < fenn> http://pastebin.ca/1884526
10:56 < fenn> see anything unusual?
10:57 < pmetzger> the one you sent me before in icb has a length of 1420. these have lengths of 1380. that's odd.
10:57 < pmetzger> also the push flag is set, which is really really weird.
10:57 < fenn> a lot of them have length 0
10:57 < pmetzger> those are the acks from you to them.
10:58 < pmetzger> they would have a length of zero because the only thing important in the packet is the ack itself.
10:58 < pmetzger> you aren't sending them data
10:58 < fenn> ok
10:58 < pmetzger> so it hung hard after line 43, not doing anything else?
10:58 < pmetzger> and for how long?
10:59 < pmetzger> I would have expected to see a retransmit of your ack.
10:59 < fenn> sorry, i hit ctrl-c for some reason
10:59 < fenn>   10:58:52.723543 IP drescher.canonical.com.www > fenn-virtualbox.local.52263: Flags [P.], seq 66309650:66311030, ack 2021303126, win 65535, length 1380
10:59 < fenn> 10:58:52.723592 IP fenn-virtualbox.local.52263 > drescher.canonical.com.www: Flags [.], ack 1380, win 65535, length 0
11:00 < pmetzger> could you do the dump into a file, do the apt get, wait until it times out, ^C the tcpdump and paste the grep?
11:00 < pmetzger> but the first two things I don't get at all are why your length is 1380 and why they're setting push.
11:00 < pmetzger> no fucking sense in either thing
11:01 < fenn> that's what i thought i did. anyway, will dump the whole thing again
11:01 < pmetzger> wait until the apt-get dies.
11:01 < pmetzger> which may take some minutes
11:01 < fenn> of course now it's working correctly :\
11:01 < pmetzger> it is? perhaps we fixed it! :)
11:01 < fenn> -_-
11:02 < pmetzger> so anyway, you know how to read what you're seeing here for the future?
11:02 < fenn> sort of
11:02 < pmetzger> each packet is preceeded by the timestamp.
11:02 < pmetzger> you then get source and dest addresses
11:02 < pmetzger> the > is a mnemonic for which is which
11:02 < fenn> right
11:02 < pmetzger> the port numbers are included so you can distinguish different connections
11:03 < pmetzger> "flags" tells you what flags are set on the packet. ack, push, syn, reset are the most prominent ones.
11:03 < pmetzger> oh, and fin (end of connection) and urgent.
11:04 < pmetzger> the sequence number increments for every byte sent, it is independent per direction
11:04 < pmetzger> the reciever acks up to a particular sequence number, saying it has gotten everything up to that point.
11:04 < fenn> for every byte? not each packet?
11:04 < pmetzger> correct.
11:04 < pmetzger> retransmissions can combine data from multiple packets if they were under the MTU length.
11:05 < pmetzger> the window is how far behind you can be on getting acks before you'll stop transmitting.
11:05 < pmetzger> this allows you to deal with the latency on real lines -- multiple packets can be in flight at once.
11:05 < pmetzger> most of the rest is pretty easy to puzzle out.
11:05 < pmetzger> you can usually figure out what is going wrong with the network by looking right at it this way.
11:06 < pmetzger> though in our case, other than the mysterious short length of these data packets, the fact that they have PUSH set for no obvious reason, and the fact that it fixed itself, I have little to note. :)
11:06 < fenn> right, well, thanks for the help even if we have no idea what was going on
11:06 < pmetzger>  :)
11:07 < kanzure> as punishment for your ignorance you must now go rewrite the tcp stack layer in the kernel
11:07 < pmetzger> again?
11:07 < pmetzger> I hate doing that.
11:07 < fenn> shore thing boss, where do yu want it stacked?
11:07 < kanzure> pmetzger: i meant fenn :)
11:08 < pmetzger> my guess is still that the firewall/NAT was interfering with MTU discovery or the window negotiation, but that's a guess.
11:12 < eridu> kanzure: where are the logs for this channel again?
11:13 < pmetzger> gnusha.org/logs ?
11:14 < eridu> pmetzger: thanks
11:15 < eridu> darn, that seems to be out of date
11:15 < eridu> does anyone have a link to that fake yudkowsky twitter account?
11:15 < pmetzger> fakeelizer
11:15 < pmetzger> http://twitter.com/FakeEliezer
11:17 < pmetzger> hrm. he says one should ignore anything he wrote before about 2001.
11:17 < fenn> he says that every year
11:17 < pmetzger> I will admit that his comments to Marvin Minsky were a few years before that.
11:18 < pmetzger> (significantly in fact)
11:19 < pmetzger> he was a teenager at the time, perhaps one shouldn't in fact hold him to such things.
11:21 < eridu> I would hope not
11:22 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt is the most recent version, but it's a big download
11:22 < eridu> !help
11:22 < eridu> I wish they were dated
11:23 < kanzure> wish what were dated?
11:23 < pmetzger> the logs I presume.
11:23 < kanzure> irclogs.txt are dated.. the day changes are mentioned in the logs, but they can be hard to spot
11:23 < eridu> just saw that
11:23 < pmetzger> it is dangerous to date logs. you can get splinters in very uncomfortable places.
11:43 -!- splicer [~patrik@h68n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:47 -!- streety [~Jonathan@host86-183-190-126.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:02 < kanzure> hi streety 
12:03 < streety> hi
12:03 -!- klafka__ [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:16 < pmetzger> going to try switching to colloquy as my client, bbiaf.
12:16 -!- pmetzger [~perry@69.86.203.77] has quit [Quit: Started wasting time elsewhere]
12:21 -!- pmetzger [~pmetzger@69.86.203.77] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:22 < pmetzger> Hopefully this is working. :)
12:23 < pmetzger> oh, wild. the topic video starts with Patri Friedman. :)
12:27 < kanzure> :)
12:27 < pmetzger> Okay, Colloquy is definitely buggier than I like.
12:40 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
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12:56 < pmetzger> anyone have recommendations on OS X IRC clients?
12:59 < genehacker> pmetzger could you give me a link to the process for making diamond mechanosynthesis tooltips in solution and the process for making them from other tooltips?
12:59 < pmetzger> there are no papers for making them in solution per se. there are papers on the chemistry of adamantanes out there. IIRC the wikipedia article on adamantanes is pretty good. (I presume you have an organic chem background?)
13:00 < pmetzger> as for making them from other tooltips, the big tooltip paper by Merkle & Freitas is what you want, let me find a link.
13:00 < genehacker> I don't
13:00 < genehacker> I've probably read that one
13:00 < genehacker> http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm
13:01 < pmetzger> http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf
13:01 < genehacker> anyway if you want IRC clients try wikipedia, they have a list of pretty much all of them
13:01 < pmetzger> The list isn't by OS sadly. I looked. :)
13:02 < pmetzger> anyway, if you don't have a background in orgo and you're interested, I'd start by reading an orgo text (say Maitland Jones', that one is pretty good...)
13:02 < genehacker> oh thanks 
13:02 < genehacker> I was about to ask that
13:02 < pmetzger> Making the tooltips by conventional synthesis is not necessarily feasible.
13:02 < pmetzger> I suspect it is, but I don't know it for sure.
13:04 < genehacker> btw would knowing organic chemistry help me with synthesizing simple compound?
13:04 < pmetzger> yes.
13:05 < pmetzger> if you're interested in Jones' text, I just checked Amazon and they shat out a 4th edition that they're charging like $140 for.
13:05 < pmetzger> I'd just get the third edition used.
13:05 < pmetzger> it isn't like you're going to benefit from all the big advances in intro organic chemistry in four years.
13:05 < pmetzger> and you can get that edition for like $40 or less used.
13:06 < pmetzger> you might also poke around on the net.
13:06 < pmetzger> Unfortunately, DIY organic chem labs are now looked at askance by the feds. Buying glassware and the right kinds of compounds is a good way to get a visit from the DEA etc.
13:07 < pmetzger> which pisses me endlessly off, but...
13:07 < genehacker> I know what you mean, which is why I want to make a small one
13:08 < pmetzger> ever work with glassware etc.? if not, I can recommend books on lab technique if you get serious.
13:09 < pmetzger> BTW, the solutions for the problems in Jones are available as a second book you can buy.
13:11 < genehacker> I've worked a bit with glassware
13:11 < genehacker> but what I want to do is make a chemical factory on a chip
13:11 < pmetzger> My one major piece of advice: there's lots of stuff you can play with in organic synthesis, unlike DIY mol bio projects, which can get you killed. One routinely works with very toxic substances if you're doing synthetic work. I worked in a lab for a while to get experience, and we had professional safety equipment, and even then I was often uncomfortable with instructions to, say, boil stuff in liquid bromine...
13:16 < pmetzger> in a professional lab, you have fume hoods, toxic waste disposal systems, benchtops made from impervious crap, fire extinguishers, etc. in your garage, not so much. that would make me nervous. Doing PCR and stuff like that on the other hand, the worst that happens to you is you waste some money.
13:19 < pmetzger> for an idea of what it can get like: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/things_i_wont_work_with/
13:21 < pmetzger> some of the entries there are utterly priceless
13:24 < pmetzger> this is one of the better ones: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time.php
13:48 < genehacker> this is a pretty funny one:
13:48 < genehacker> http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2006/03/08/how_not_to_do_it_liquid_nitrogen_tanks.php
13:48 < genehacker> no one was hurt
13:51 < streety> that site is a dangerous time sink.  Interesting though :)
13:51 < Yocttar> gotta agree with streety ;)
13:54  * fenn snickers
13:55 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:56 < fenn> "[Anselm Levskaya] came fully formed out of a mine, nurtured on a steady diet of coal dust, hardened by the eons of brutal compression deep below the surface, cut by diamonds to a chiseled finish. And then, of course, raised by a pack of carpenter wolves on the Virginian tundra."
14:10 < streety> kanzure:  is there a plan/consensus for which service is being used for the conference call yet?
14:13 < fenn> so apparently there's no way to quote text in outlook except by manually adding > marks???
14:14 < pmetzger> outlook is very reminiscent of a real mail client.
14:14 < fenn> it reminds me of hotmail after MS fucked it up
14:15 -!- pdfernhout [~pdfernhou@cpe-74-67-25-48.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:22 < Ian_Daniher> kanzure: just added you on skype. talk in 40min?
14:25 -!- Alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279558942.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:26 < kanzure> yep, skype it is
14:26 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
14:26 < kanzure> streety: skype
14:26 < kanzure> hi pdfernhout 
14:27 < Alystair> so I'm making the worlds worst easteregg/bookmarklet ever
14:27 < kanzure> please message me on skype to get included on the call (or else i might forget you)
14:28 < kanzure> fenn: mesa electronics stuff has arrived and is with the arm now
14:28 -!- marainein [~marainein@220.253-196-110.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:29 < cluckj> kanzure are you "kanzure"
14:29 < pdfernhout> hey bryan
14:29 < kanzure> cluckj: yes
14:30 < cluckj> k
14:31 -!- LilxHK [~LilxHK@c906548b.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
14:31 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8
14:32 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8
14:34 < Alystair> http://isitout.com/ez/doom.html - keep on the downlow about this
14:34 < Alystair> still a WIP :)
14:34 < Alystair> going to be in touch with a certain html5 canvas guru to get some crazy site destruction actually happening
14:34 < Alystair> with gravity etc
14:34 < Alystair> so you can shoot images off the wall as it were
14:35 < dustbin> youtube did that once
14:35 < dustbin> website falling apart
14:35 < Alystair> yeah the gravity thing
14:36 < Alystair> but not with guns, or rocket launchers
14:36 < dustbin> heh
14:36 < dustbin> I think they just used the html5 transforms
14:36 < Alystair> it wasn't "just"
14:36 < Alystair> it's a mess if you look at the code really
14:36 < dustbin> no canvas involved as far as I remember
14:37 < Alystair> trust me it's canvas trickery
14:37 < dustbin> I've done some interesting things with canvas, but I don't think it's required for this if you don't want to use it
14:37 < Alystair> well if you're a js pro that wants to help out...
14:38 < dustbin> what do you need to know
14:39 < Alystair> well the thing is you can't do "free" rotation of elements outside of canvas afaik?
14:39 < dustbin> by free rotation you mean?
14:40 < Alystair> as in instead of just changing x/y also rotate elements 
14:40 < dustbin> ok
14:40 < Alystair> that's a canvas thing
14:40 < kanzure> "Spatiotemporal control of cell signalling using a light-switchable protein interaction"
14:40 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7266/full/nature08446.html
14:41 < Alystair> ok you know what I actually need to get going, I'll bug people in a more applicable channel about this later
14:41 < dustbin> I seem to remember seeing it before with safari not sure if it's a common thing
14:41 < dustbin> k
14:41 < pmetzger> kanzure: do you have a nature sub?
14:42 < kanzure> designfiles.org does :)
14:42 < pmetzger> ah.
14:42 < pmetzger> (I'm a subscriber...)
14:45 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:45 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/Spatiotemporal%20control%20of%20cell%20signalling%20using%20a%20light-switchable%20protein%20interaction.pdf
14:45 < kanzure> hi Dennis_Jones 
14:46 < Dennis_Jones> Hey. 
14:46 < Dennis_Jones> Bryan, did you close the chat or did i get booted?
14:46 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:47 < streety> hi
14:47 < kanzure> hi streety
14:47 < Dennis_Jones> Hi streety
14:47 < kanzure> Dennis_Jones: i'm not sure O_o
14:47 < cluckj> o_O
14:48 < kanzure> * introductions / names (No, you don't have to tell everyone who you are)
14:48 < kanzure> oops
14:48 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/Spatiotemporal%20control%20of%20cell%20signalling%20using%20a%20light-switchable%20protein%20interaction.pdf
14:51 < pmetzger> we can use the IRC channel for a backchannel.
14:51 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:52 < kanzure> pmetzger: 
14:52 < kanzure> yesa
14:52 < kanzure> *yes
14:52 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:53 < pmetzger> what is to be discussed anyway?
14:53 < kanzure> pmetzger: introductions; hackerspace updates; journal club (we're presenting anselm's paper)
14:53 < pmetzger> I have had people attempt to call me too.
14:53 -!- Alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279558942.dsl.bell.ca] has quit []
14:53 < pmetzger> (I'd say it by audio but this seems more efficient.)
14:54 < cluckj> LOL
14:55 < pmetzger> It is a good thing the iphone headset works with my macbook.
14:55 < pmetzger> because I'd never find my dedicated headset, I use it so infrequently.
14:55 < cluckj> I'm just using my built-in mic on my tablet pc
14:56 < pmetzger> built in mikes are very noisy...
14:56 < Dennis_Jones> Cluckj: say something so we can hear how noisy it is...
14:57 < pmetzger> the quality is poor to me.
14:57 < pmetzger> yours is a lot nicer.
14:57 < cluckj> :P
14:58 < pmetzger> I usually find mike quality is significant on these things.
14:58 < randallagordon> I got dumped out of the conf...did another get made, or is my connection being silly?
14:58 < cluckj> hehe
14:59 < cluckj> mine has two microphones
14:59 < cluckj> for what, I don't know
14:59 < randallagordon> two mics, generally for noise cancellation goodness.
14:59 < Dennis_Jones> What? I got kicked again...
15:00 < kanzure> hmm
15:00 < kanzure> Dennis_Jones: i can't figure out why you getkeep getting kicked
15:00 < kanzure> randallagordon: i'm trying to get you in
15:00 < randallagordon> I'm in now, thanks :)
15:06 < ybit> feel free to add me on the buddy list
15:06 < ybit> skype name: aisrev
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15:11 < pmetzger> I suspect people will get kicked at random no matter what you do.
15:11 < ybit> proposal: everyone introduce themselves, where they are from, and what they are doing. i don't know everyone, and i'm sure it's the same for quite a few people
15:17 < pmetzger> Feedback on the line right now....
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15:18 -!- ericxfresh [~eric@cpe-071-068-226-078.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:18 < kanzure> hi ericxfresh 
15:18 < ericxfresh> Hi.
15:18 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:18 < kanzure> telecon is going well
15:18 < ericxfresh> I think my wireless was acting funky or was kicked from skype and was unable to join again.
15:19 < pmetzger> pfernhout's mike is buzzing a bunch.
15:19 < ericxfresh> good to hear
15:19 < ericxfresh> Do you think that you could try again to ring me in?
15:20 < kanzure> done
15:21 < ericxfresh> odd, I'm not receiving anything.  I'll restart skype and get back to you
15:21 < parolang> Fare is logged into freenode now btw.
15:22 < pmetzger> cluckj's mike is very hard to understand...
15:24 < cluckj> sorry :(
15:24 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:24 < randallagordon> As I don't have a mic, I can't really introduce myself on the Skype conf... I'm a geek, designer, transhumanism ethusiast and generally just sit back and listen around here. I check in every once in a while and enjoy the links that get posted! :)
15:24 < cluckj> I'll just type out what I said
15:24 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:25 < cluckj> I'm an anthropologist in the science and technology studies department at RPI in Troy, NY, doing a research project on DIY Bio, mostly with the DIY Bio Boston group
15:25 < cluckj> I think it's turning into my dissertation, so I will probably be sticking around for a while :)
15:26 < ericxfresh> That is awesome!
15:27 < ericxfresh> Dennis or Bryan could you try to invite me again.  I guess I shouldn't use a netbook to skype?
15:29 < pmetzger> dropping off the call for five...
15:29 < Ian_Daniher> skype die for anyone else?
15:29 < kanzure> paul, jonathan, perry, dennis, randall, eric, chripis, and heath
15:29 < Ian_Daniher> okay, fair enough.
15:30 < ybit> linkage to paper
15:30 < Dennis_Jones> http://designfiles.org/papers/Spatiotemporal%20control%20of%20cell%20signalling%20using%20a%20light-switchable%20protein%20interaction.pdf
15:30 < ybit> thanks
15:30 < pmetzger> ooh. half the people vanished from the call...
15:30 < Dennis_Jones> I think, thats at least the one i got earlier
15:30 < kanzure> paul, jonathan, perry, dennis, randall, eric, chripis, and heath
15:31 < ybit> chirpis == edward monson
15:32 < ybit> he's heading to some biolab @ vanderbilt
15:32 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:34 < pmetzger> dropping off for another five.
15:35 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:35 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/Intranasal%20delivery%20of%20cells%20to%20the%20brain.pdf
15:35 -!- Dennis_Jones [~chatzilla@c-71-196-180-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:35 < cluckj> thx
15:35 < Dennis_Jones> Bryan, got kicked again... send me a call?
15:36 < ericxfresh> Me too
15:38 < fenn> jeez how many people do you have on that conference call?
15:38 < ybit> ~10 in and out
15:38 < cluckj> 9?
15:39 < fenn> also, i will expect a full transcription in my mailbox by 6
15:40  * fenn goes off to crash some webcam firmware some more
15:44 < cluckj> kanzure that pcr microfluidics sounds cool
15:44 < cluckj> you could run it 24/7....
15:50 < ybit> if you are interested in building reprap, a little info: http://tweaklabs.org/RepRap
15:50 < Dennis_Jones> thanks
15:50 < Ian_Daniher> piezo 
15:50 < cluckj> pdfernhout, stalker :)
15:50 < pdfernhout> :-)
15:51 < cluckj> david hess is in my department
15:51 < cluckj> I'm taking a class with him next semester
15:51 < cluckj> (I think)
15:51 < pdfernhout> http://www.davidjhess.org/
15:52 < cluckj> yes
15:52 < cluckj> he wrote the intro to that book you sent me
15:53 < ybit> what was pmetzger talking about in tips, i was afk for a min, my niece was here
15:53 < pdfernhout> Some of my work: :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jobless_recovery&oldid=352787802 (rapidly being eroded by those believing in mainstream economic theology)
15:54 < streety> if you snap lots of wires eventually you'll get one with a tip which is suitable for use as a probe
15:55 < kanzure> pmetzger: http://heybryan.org/graphene.html
15:55 < pdfernhout> Writings by Langdon Winner at RPI has also been inspirational to me (assigned reading in a course on the history of technology in the 1980s)
15:55 < cluckj> :)
15:55 < cluckj> he is a great professor
15:56 < cluckj> I took a course on technology with him
15:56 < cluckj> I work with mike fortun (my advisor), nancy campbell, and ron eglash
15:57 < pdfernhout> In a different world, it would be fun to hang out a few years at RPI doing studies about society and technology. It's mostly what I have written about over the past few years (like in that Wikipedia article or elsewhere).
15:57 < cluckj> it is pretty damn fun
15:58 < cluckj> I'm having a blast, especially with diy bio
15:58 < pdfernhout> http://www.sts.rpi.edu/pl/faculty/michael-fortun
15:58 < cluckj> I also work at the children's museum in troy part-time
15:58 < cluckj> yep, that's him
15:58 < pdfernhout> I consulted the RPI economics home page when I was working on that article, in terms of links to heterodox economics.
15:59 < cluckj> cool
15:59 < cluckj> what are you up to these days?
15:59 < pdfernhout> It would be fun to take the ideas in that Wikipedia article and make them academic and formal and well supported through more research (and maybe some simulations etc.) in the RPI economics department.
15:59 -!- uniqanomaly__ [~ua@78.9.74.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
15:59 < cluckj> apply for grad school there :P
16:00 < pdfernhout> A mix of stuff, but mostly taking care of my son while my wife works, and making some Android software (musical phrases), sadly, a paid app, but with a promise to put it under the GPL in three years. Plus I've written a lot of essays.
16:01 < pdfernhout> Did the teleconference just go away?
16:01 < ybit> pdfernhout: no you went bye-bye though
16:01 < cluckj> how old is your son?
16:02 < pdfernhout> Bryan, can you connect me back to the conference?
16:02 < cluckj> cause I work here: http://www.cmost.org
16:03 < pdfernhout> He's been there once a few years back. 
16:03 < cluckj> ah
16:03 < kanzure> pdfernhout: we're closing actually.
16:03 < pdfernhout> It's a great place. I liked the video weather report.
16:03 < pdfernhout> OK.
16:03 < cluckj> we've got lots of new stuff, about to get an exhibit about australia
16:04 < pdfernhout> I'll need to check it out again then. We never saw the movie (because we were avoiding media then). But now we are doing more media.
16:04 < cluckj> and I'm putting together some neat planetarium shows with Nightshade
16:04 < cluckj> ah :)
16:05 < cluckj> well if you let me know if/when you decide to visit, I can get you a free pass (for the kiddo) and give you a tour
16:05 < cluckj> save you $5 anyway :)
16:05 < pdfernhout> Wow. That's great.
16:05 < pdfernhout> I don't mind the fee. But a backstage tour would be great.
16:06 < cluckj> there's not much backstage, haha
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16:06 < pdfernhout> We're homeschooling (for secular reasons) and I think CMOST has some hands on things for homeschoolers (vaguely recall).
16:06 < cluckj> yeah, we do homeschool programs
16:06 < pdfernhout> I guess there are the classrooms that you can only go in if you are part of a class.
16:07 < ybit> alright guys, i'll give my comments later on tonight, going to grab some dinner right now.
16:07 < pdfernhout> Like the one in the back with the animals?
16:07 < cluckj> o_O
16:07 < kanzure> yeah i had fun
16:07 < cluckj> oh the animal room
16:07 < cluckj> we moved that to a public place
16:07 < kanzure> i was worried that there would be too many people
16:07 < cluckj> it's much cooler now
16:07 < pdfernhout> http://www.cmost.com/programs/homeschool.php
16:07 < cluckj> once I get the planetarium stuff working, we should have *real* planetarium shows instead of premade dome movies
16:08 < pdfernhout> One of the nice things about living where we do is we can see the Milky Way. Although light pollution from Saratoga is still a bit of an issue.
16:08 < cluckj> :)
16:10 < pdfernhout> I should think about those homeschool programs. My kid might like them. And they look late enough in the day to get to (so many things start so early). But it looks like no summer programs.
16:10 < kanzure> maybe he can go to waldorf and become a hippie like me?
16:10 < kanzure> hippie indoctrination camp
16:10 < kanzure> http://austinwaldorf.org/
16:11 < cluckj> we run camps during the summer
16:11 < pdfernhout> We thought about the waldorf school in Saratoga. ;-) But 45 minutes away. http://www.waldorfsaratoga.org/
16:11 < cluckj> pdfernhout I have to go out, but ttyl, I idle in here pretty much all the time now
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16:12 < pdfernhout> Great. Thanks for the CMOST info.
16:12 < cluckj> yup, if you have any other questions, let me know
16:13 < cluckj> I've been working there for a while
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16:13 < pmetzger> Waldorf! Anthroposophy! The folks who believe kids tooth development is a way to measure intellectual progress!
16:14 < pdfernhout> Everything is a mixed bag. :-)
16:15 < kanzure> pmetzger: well, there's my deep dark secret for the night
16:15 < kanzure> they kicked me out though
16:15 < kanzure> i was too "wild"
16:15 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/graphene.html since you mentioned it
16:15 < pdfernhout> The CMOST camps look great, but they are too many days (five weeks?) for a long commute for us: http://www.cmost.com/programs/summercamp.php
16:16 < streety> It was good speaking with many of you in the teleconference earlier.  I'm going to take off now.  Hopefully catch many of you on irc again over the next few days
16:16 < kanzure> :)
16:16 < kanzure> it was good, yeah
16:16 < pdfernhout> Thanks for arranging the teleconference, Bryan.
16:17 < pdfernhout> I don't know if I will keep up with them as they seem DIY-Bio oriented though (and I'm more into clanking stuff and programming). But, they are great for DIY-Bio aspects of OM.
16:18 < kanzure> i dunno, AFM seems very OM-related
16:18 < kanzure> molecular manufacturing for instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg
16:18 < pdfernhout> That's true. There certainly is ovelap.
16:18 < pdfernhout> overlap.
16:19 < pdfernhout> Yest, true, I remember that video from a previous time you mentioned that link. Though we are still not there yet (if we ever will be, given the statistical aspects of working with things on a small scale, where bio processes dominate).
16:21 < pdfernhout> Anyway, there's lots of room for all sorts of discussions with different emphasis. And it is true that open clanking stuff (like microscopes, containers, etc.) facilitates biotech. And good biotech, like to produce plastic, facilitates clanking stuff.
16:21 < pmetzger> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_probe_microscopy
16:22 < pmetzger> See "Probe tips"
16:22 < pmetzger> as in:
16:22 < pmetzger> An alternative and much quicker method is to take a thin wire and cut it with a pair of scissors or a scalpel. Testing the tip produced via this method on a sample with a known profile will indicate whether the tip is good or not and a single sharp point is achieved roughly 50% of the time. It is not uncommon for this method to result in a tip with more than one peak; one can easily discern this upon scan due to a high level of ghost images.
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16:22 < pmetzger> in the undergrad lab class I was in, it took us more like ten attempts, and that was with help from someone who reputedly understood what they were doing well.
16:22 < pmetzger> but it was possible, and it was cheap.
16:23 < pmetzger> you can also buy probe tips commercially.
16:24 < QuantumG> first comment on that video is gold
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16:30 < pmetzger> BTW, I assume all the DIY Bio types have seen/read "Molecular Biology of the Cell" by Alberts. It is the book I taught myself from.
16:31 < pmetzger> Expensive but really good.
16:32 < Utopiah> http://warezforum.info/ebooks-tutorials/758674-molecular-biology-cell-5th-edition-dvd.html
16:33 < marainein> on discount on that site
16:33 < Utopiah> ;)
16:34 -!- pdfernhout [~pdfernhou@cpe-74-67-25-48.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:35 < pmetzger> Very deep discount.
16:36 < kanzure> yeah it's a popular read
16:37 < Utopiah> (but then I let everyone use his own sense of moral/ethics/justice/whatever, just saying it's available right now)
16:40 < kanzure> hm i don't seem to have a copy of the svn repository for ne-1
16:41 < kanzure> but i have a dot_subversion_config file
16:46 < kanzure> fenn: you're not in #emc
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17:16 < kanzure> "Please send me a list of your hot topics, any neat URLs or books/magazines/zines, products, software, newsgroups, other organizations, great people, etc. that turns you on."
17:16 < kanzure> "Also send me a brief history of what you've been up to (detailed bio, resume, or CV) so I can prepare for our call to go over where we can connect and explore neat joint projects and funding opportunities."
17:16 < pmetzger> who asked you that?
17:17 < kanzure> someone i met at h+ summit
17:17 < pmetzger> from that soi-dissant management consultant?
17:17 < kanzure> soi?
17:17 < kanzure> what does that mean
17:18 < Utopiah> french sexyness
17:18 < pmetzger> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soi-disant
17:19 < kanzure> i don't know if he was french
17:19 < Utopiah> I mean the expression is french, like deja vu
17:19 < kanzure> http://accelerating.org/downloads/SmartJ-2010-FutureoftheiPad.pdf
17:20  * kanzure is listening to John Smart talk
17:20 < kanzure> he's starting the first "future studies" master degree for emerging tech stuff
17:20 < pmetzger> it means roughly "self proclaimed"
17:20 < Utopiah> pmetzger: I also suggest latin and greek expressions once a day, always looks nice ;)
17:21 < pmetzger> I'm just a sesquipedant. :)
17:21 < ybit> so the point of the teleconference is to share what we've been doing and ask questions if we have any. then to discuss a paper of the week..
17:21 < pmetzger> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sesquipedalian
17:22 < kanzure> ybit: yes
17:22 < kanzure> is that bad?
17:22 < Utopiah> kanzure: news from NASA upcoming only conf (in SL or not) btw?
17:22 < kanzure> haven't heard back from jessica
17:22 < kanzure> sorry Utopiah 
17:22 < Utopiah> np
17:23 < ybit> kanzure: no, but there's this wonderful technology that was invented in the 70s called email... :)(
17:23 < ybit> :) *
17:24 < ybit> i'm not quite sure what te point of voice instead of text...
17:24 < ybit> the*
17:24 < kanzure> yeah i'm not sure why people requested voice either
17:24 < kanzure> most of the people who requested audio weren't even around
17:24 < Utopiah> regarding books to buy, 2 friends launched tonight http://readerbroker.com/ (Amazon price comparisons over countries and marketplace)
17:25 < ybit> yeah, i figured there would be ~30 people present
17:25 < kanzure> mac messed up on timezone conversions
17:25 < kanzure> and another fellow contacted me immediately after we closed the session
17:26 < pmetzger> http://everytimezone.com/
17:26  * ybit is curious why diybio is not listed on scienceforcitizens.net
17:26 < kanzure> can't i just use 'date' 
17:26 < kanzure> ybit: because scienceforcitizens is territorial i think
17:27 < ybit> kanzure: did you get a chance to talk with darlene about anything?
17:27 < kanzure> no
17:27 < ybit> why would they be territorial, hrm..
17:27 < kanzure> same reason why mac is :(
17:27 < kanzure> (incompetence?)
17:27 < pmetzger> Date doesn't do the visualization so nicely.
17:27 < kanzure> it's my answer to everything
17:27 < pmetzger> the visualization in everytimezone is cool.
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17:29 < ybit> who here does web design?
17:29 -!- uniqanomaly__ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-80-38.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
17:29 < ybit> y web dev
17:32 < kanzure> blah i wish i knew more web designers
17:32 < kanzure> i can do web dev, but i promised myself i'd never touch web design
17:32 < kanzure> *never touch web design again
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17:39 < kanzure> wtf is this? http://trillennium.com/
17:43 < Utopiah> seems compatible with the Hollywood IQ/Screen ratio
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17:46 < kanzure> hi LilxHK 
17:47 < LilxHK> hi
17:48  * LilxHK going to watch s01e01 of Fringe
17:49 -!- marainein [~marainein@220.253-196-110.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:50 < kanzure> dr. robert bishop was modeled after me
17:50 < kanzure> walter bishop
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17:53 < kanzure> hi elevenarms :)
17:54 < elevenarms> hola kanzure
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17:58 < kanzure> i think this channel has never been larger (was at 53 earlier today)
18:00 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplusroadmap_users.dat
18:00 < Utopiah> curve?
18:01 < kanzure> well i'd need to plot dates with the points as well
18:02 < pmetzger> kurzweil would draw an exponential curve based on that.
18:03 < kanzure> ppft he'd draw an exponential curve based on your _mom_
18:03 < pmetzger> well, yes.
18:04 < QuantumG> "according to this curve, your mother will be leaving 400 pairs of shoes at my house by the end of the year"
18:04 < pmetzger> I loved how he was mentioning that the number of sequenced genomes was rising exponentially. He didn't bother to mention that eventually you run out of organisms to sequence, though as I tweeted during the conference, one could simply start sequencing the same individuals multiple times a day...
18:04 < Utopiah>  http://ow.ly/1ZxZu
18:05 < QuantumG> how many organisms are there on Earth anyway?
18:05 < kanzure> a few trillion biomass tons i'd guess
18:05 < kanzure> actually more. nevermind. don't listen to me
18:05 < kanzure> there are entire papers devoted to estimating the amount of biomass on the world
18:05 < pmetzger> Freitas has estimates on his paper "Some limits to global ecophagy", aka the grey goo paper.
18:06 < pmetzger> it is a cool paper. he predicts that it is technologically difficult to eat the world in less than eight to ten days.
18:07 < pmetzger> http://www.rfreitas.com/Nano/Ecophagy.htm
18:07 < pmetzger> of course, some of my friends have very big appetites, so who knows.
18:12 < kanzure> updated: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/meetlog.txt (last update was 2010-06-07)
18:12 < Utopiah> :| not the same file
18:13 < Utopiah> it was 30Mo before, not 1Mo?
18:13 < kanzure> no.. it has never been 30 MB
18:14 < kanzure> you're thinking of irclogs.txt
18:14 < Utopiah> yes, my bad I checked after, that's the processed file
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18:22 < JayDugger> Orange is not your color, Bryan. http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgedvorsky/4707105075/in/photostream/
18:25 < kanzure> heh
18:27 < kanzure> the other person is brian malow, "the science comedian"
18:34 < eridu> if you run out of organisms to sequence you win
18:34 < eridu> then you have to beat the elite four
18:35 < kanzure> and watch out for red
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18:41 < cluckj> hehe
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19:03 < kanzure> hi Noahj 
19:16 < Noahj> Hey Bryan
19:16 < kanzure> did you see the youtoob videos? :)
19:19 < kanzure> http://current.com/technology/92489723_from-gears-to-genes-a-sea-change-in-transhumanism.htm
19:19 < kanzure> http://technoccult.net/archives/2010/02/22/diy-transhumanism-on-the-cheap/
19:20 < kanzure> http://sapiensanonym.blogspot.com/
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19:39 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone. Time to commute for me.
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20:14 < kanzure> stalk: Patrik Ronnqvist
20:21 < cluckj> hmm
20:22 < cluckj> three diy bio boston meetups =)
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20:38 < kanzure> thesprouts.org uses django? http://thesprouts.org/ourstudioso#whats-up-at-your-space
20:38 < kanzure> actually, i think i knew that when i read through sproutgarden.git
20:40 < kanzure> does pokemon netbattle work on visualboy?
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22:42 < kanzure> http://www.beyondbullets.com/2005/07/beyond_bullet_p.html interesting story
22:42 < kanzure> i am tempted to do a film documentary on people who close multi million dollar deals
22:43 < kanzure> some of these people are just, sick
22:43 < kanzure> and ridiculously good at presentations
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22:45 < klafka__> is this book actually good
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