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03:25 < Utopiah> http://trashwiki.org/ :)
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06:24 < kanzure> hi pmetzger 
06:24 < pmetzger> morning!
06:25 < pmetzger> how are the build problems?
06:25 < kanzure> i posted to om today about the compilation errors from yesterday
06:25 < pmetzger> OM?
06:25 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
06:25 < kanzure> yeah, it's the open source manufacturing group that we run in here
06:26 < pmetzger> any replies to that message?
06:26 < pmetzger> just glanced through it...
06:26 < kanzure> i sent it 20 seconds ago
06:26 < pmetzger> :)
06:26 < pmetzger> ah yes. :)
06:27 < pmetzger> just saw the date.
06:27 < pmetzger> you didn't mention OS and revision...
06:27 < kanzure> my OS?
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06:27 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
06:27 < kanzure> actually it wouldn't really matter - i don't think this would compile on any system
06:27 < pmetzger> yes. the OS you were doing this ./configure on.
06:28 < kanzure> JayDugger: i sent an email to om a few seconds ago about my compile errors
06:28 < pmetzger> No, it is actually important to know what system and version you're running.
06:28 < kanzure> pmetzger: fyi / for your records, i run debian with 2.6.30-bpo.1-686
06:28 < pmetzger> okay, so a fairly recent debian.
06:28 < pmetzger> let me try to reproduce your problem on mine...
06:30 < JayDugger>  While you all wait...what's the name of the prodrug that metabolizes to Modafinil? Anyone know off-hand? I think it starts with the letter "A."
06:36 < pmetzger> okay, kanzure?
06:36 < pmetzger> So the errors here are pretty simple.
06:36 < pmetzger> like for example:
06:36 < pmetzger> the YACC: command not found error comes with a line number in configure
06:36 < pmetzger> so I vi +lineno configure
06:37  * kanzure has lineno on by default :)
06:37 < pmetzger> and lo and behold, there is a $() being used there.
06:37 < pmetzger> no, I mean +2148
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06:37 < pmetzger> so if you look there, there's an obvious shell syntax error caused by someone who used a pre-posix shell (I think)
06:38 < JayDugger> pre-posix? 
06:38 < kanzure> hrm but this was written in 2003
06:38 < kanzure> or 2004 or somesuch
06:38 < pmetzger> at least, it is clear that they are trying to expand a shell var inside a string with $(YACC) instead of with ${YACC}
06:38 < kanzure> also, this has autoconf
06:38 < pmetzger> well, yes, but you are on debian.
06:38 < kanzure> so shouldn't autoconf generate something for bash?
06:38 < pmetzger> no, it has a script called CONFIGURE
06:38 < pmetzger> it doesn't have autoconf.
06:38  * kanzure checks ago
06:38 < kanzure> *checks again
06:38 < kanzure> you're right
06:38 < pmetzger> it was generated by autoconf a million years ago.
06:39 < pmetzger> I'm not sure what they're trying to do here, but it looks wrong.
06:39 < pmetzger> how is your shell fu?
06:39 < kanzure> i'd say somewhat about average, but i haven't written my own shell or messed with bash internals or stuff like that
06:40 < pmetzger> do you grok shell scripts well?
06:40 < kanzure> yes
06:40 < pmetzger> like you grok what $() means vs ${} etc?
06:40 < kanzure> am i going to have to just rewrite this line for line when a problem comes up
06:40 < pmetzger> I think you need to do more than that...
06:40 < kanzure> {} is usually for sequences, i think
06:40 < kanzure> god damn google search
06:41 < pmetzger> no, ${VAR} expands a var.
06:41 < pmetzger> $( ) is what used to be backquotes.
06:41 < pmetzger> I think you need a shell guru to help you here, they're using lots of tricks, but with obsolete syntax.
06:41 < kanzure> if $VAR is "blah" does ${VAR} mean $blah?
06:41 < pmetzger> yes.
06:42 < pmetzger> the reason for ${FOO} is that you might want to expand ${FOO}_hi
06:42 < pmetzger> and have that turn into something_hi (if FOO=something) or what have you.
06:42 < pmetzger> it delimits the variable.
06:42 < kanzure> would it be completely terrible if i just use autoconf/automake on my own and ignore their configure file?
06:42  * kanzure checks
06:42 < kanzure> maybe they are doing something abnormal that autoconf won't be able to come up with
06:42 < pmetzger> I suspect it will fail badly.
06:43 < pmetzger> because this is written for a very old autoconf
06:43 < kanzure> no, i mean, should i just make my own config and makefile files
06:43 < pmetzger> I wouldn't bother with a "config".
06:43 < pmetzger> let me look at this for a few minutes.
06:44 < kanzure> okay
06:44 < pmetzger> how is your c++? I think this uses some old syntax there too.
06:44 < pmetzger> so you may get interesting errors you'll have to deal with.
06:45 < kanzure> my c++ is fine but there were lots of fancy preprocessor things going on in the source
06:45 < kanzure> my preprocessor fu is zilch
06:45 < kanzure> other than some #include and #ifdef stuff :P
06:46 < pmetzger> I suspect you are going to either need some help figuring this out or that you are going to learn quite a lot in this process. Which do you prefer is the question. :)
06:46 < kanzure> well, i was going to pay someone to either (1) do this or (2) do something else that gets to the goal i actually want in the first place
06:46 < kanzure> and i'm just fooling around to see if i can do it without losing an arm or a leg
06:46 < kanzure> i see that might not be the case
06:46 < pmetzger> it isn't actually hard work.
06:47 < pmetzger> but it involves skills you don't seem to have.
06:47 < kanzure> lots of software on the net needs a little massaging before it compiles, but this might be above my tolerance threshold ;)
06:47 < kanzure> sure
06:47 < kanzure> i should do it anyway just to learn
06:47 < pmetzger> FYI, I would learn shell skills at some point. I can direct you to my updated version of S.R. Bourne's paper from the shell.
06:47 < kanzure> sure, sure
06:47 < pmetzger> er on the shell.
06:47 < pmetzger> hang on.
06:48 < kanzure> i was thinking of getting this to compile, then using the fedex_plus binary to read in an EXPRESS definition, thus generating c++ classes and headers
06:48 < pmetzger> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis191/papers/bourne-shell.pdf
06:48 < pmetzger> I rewrote that extensively for my class.
06:48 < pmetzger> it has some flaws but it is a decent quick read.
06:48 < kanzure> then i want to swig up those classes and headers and get it into python
06:49 < pmetzger> what is the ultimate goal here?
06:50 < pmetzger> BTW, you could *try* turning the autoconf configure.in into a new configure file. I just don't know what will happen if you point a modern autoconf at that.
06:50 < kanzure> python/STEP library (i don't care about the importing/reading however)
06:51 < pmetzger> the answer is it won't work, just read the configure.in
06:51 < pmetzger> it has shell crap hard coded in that won't work...
06:51 < pmetzger> what is STEP?
06:51 < pmetzger> want to call me? maybe this will be faster on the phone.
06:51 < kanzure> parametric solid geometry, NURBS/bezier curve file format
06:51 < kanzure> pmetzger: skype?
06:51 < pmetzger> sure, hang on I'll get on it.
06:51 < JayDugger> Thank you for the paper, pmetzger.
06:51 < pmetzger> give me a minute to get the headset...
06:52 < JayDugger> That makes the doctor's waiting room worthwhile.
06:52 < pmetzger> you're welcome, but which paper? :)
06:52 < pmetzger> kanzure: I'm on skype now.
06:53 < JayDugger> The Bourne paper you just linked.
06:53 < pmetzger> ah. It is about a third me...
06:55 < JayDugger> I noticed the "extensive rewrite" foot note, yes.
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06:56 < kanzure> 40 MB http://designfiles.org/~bryan/sw-reverser.zip
06:56 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/step_importer.py
06:57 < kanzure> http://heekscad.org/ can view STEP files
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07:11 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/csg.py
07:22 < Yocttar> wouldnt blender be a better use for CAD? if required, develop  it a bit... but most of the tools are already there...
07:22 < kanzure> no
07:22 < kanzure> blender is not CAD
07:22 < Yocttar> i know
07:22 < Yocttar> but u can make it be CAD
07:22 < kanzure> no you can't
07:22 < kanzure> go look at the source code
07:22 < Yocttar> why start another project ;<
07:23 < Yocttar> I didnt dig into it ;O
07:23 < kanzure> pmetzger: thanks :)
07:23 < pmetzger> blender is an animation system.
07:24 < pmetzger> it happens to let you create 3D objects
07:24 < Yocttar> well, it does read many CAD file formats aswell
07:24 < pmetzger> but it doesn't, say, let you specify that one has to be steel of a certain grade, one has to be brass, and the tolerance on the steel one is such and such...
07:24 < kanzure> no, it doesn't read CAD file formats
07:24 < kanzure> it reads mesh files
07:24 < Yocttar> well yeah
07:24 < pmetzger> or then try moving the objects with respect to each other to see if they collide or if you're likely to have tolerance problems...
07:25 < Yocttar> but why is it impossible to build up on it?
07:25 < pmetzger> or then do a thermal simulation to see if your engine block will melt...
07:25 < kanzure> Yocttar: because blender's internal data structures are for meshes, not for solid geometry or boundary representation
07:25 < pmetzger> Yocttar: would you use microsoft word to edit programs, or would you use emacs?
07:25 < pmetzger> they have different purposes.
07:25 < Yocttar> O:
07:25 < pmetzger> word can in theory be used as a program editor. in practice it is not the right thing.
07:25 < Yocttar> so, best solution for now?
07:26 < kanzure> Yocttar: http://heekscad.org/
07:26 < pmetzger> dunno what the best free solution for now is, kanzure says keekscad.
07:26 < kanzure> keekscad hahah
07:26 < pmetzger> I haven't done any serious CAD.
07:26 < pmetzger> er, heeks. :)
07:26 < Yocttar> what other options are out there?
07:26 < kanzure> pmetzger: you should try out heekscad. it's not a big download, and it takes only a few seconds to go "gee this looks like typical CAD, yep"
07:26 < kanzure> Yocttar: usable options? not many ;)
07:26 < Yocttar> :(
07:26 < kanzure> what are you looking for, btw?
07:27 < kanzure> and does heekscad not satisfy your requirements?
07:27 < Yocttar> well
07:27 < Yocttar> something like heeks
07:27 < pmetzger> kanzure: I know CAD poorly. I have an ongoing semi-hobby project to design a mechanical clock. I should probably try out something like heekscad.
07:27 < Yocttar> it does
07:27 < Yocttar> but if u compare it with sketchup... !
07:27 < kanzure> sketchup is not CAD either
07:27 < Yocttar> maybe ill modify it then :D
07:27 < Yocttar> i know
07:27 < Yocttar> but sketchup is intuitive
07:28 < Yocttar> thats what im missing :(
07:28 < kanzure> so is your mom
07:28 < Yocttar> :D
07:28 < Yocttar> she is...
07:28 < kanzure> pmetzger: feel free to dump a bibliography on me of the books in your collection :D
07:28 < pmetzger> which part of my collection?
07:28 < kanzure> alllll of it
07:29 < pmetzger> I have thousands of books.
07:29 < kanzure> goodie
07:29 < pmetzger> and I haven't put the catalog online.
07:29 < pmetzger> I have a bar code scanner but many of the older books have no bar codes.
07:29 < Yocttar> kanzure: how many models have u built with heeks so far?
07:29 < kanzure> Yocttar: three or four random things
07:29 < Yocttar> :\ ;<
07:30 < pmetzger> clearly heeks is serious: http://heekscnc.blogspot.com/
07:31 < Yocttar> yep
07:31 < Yocttar> seems like it
07:32 < pmetzger> he has CNC code generators. cool!
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07:32 < Yocttar> Oo
07:36 < Yocttar> btw, if I copycat all what google did in sketchup and embed it in heeks, its legal right? :D
07:36 < kanzure> pmetzger: was it 'arthur breitman'?
07:36 < Utopiah> Yocttar: Im not sure that copying stuff from people who are the best at finding stuff is the smartest thing to do ;)
07:37 < kanzure> depends, what's the sketchup license?
07:45 < Yocttar> http://sketchup.google.com/download/license.html
07:46 < kanzure> and do they give the source code?
07:46 < Yocttar> ah ofc not
07:46 < Yocttar> I say if I make the same thing (reinvent the wheel like most opensource do)
07:47 < kanzure> dunno. i'd say do it, but IANAL
07:47 < Yocttar> too bad (or actually, thats good to know)
07:49 < Yocttar> the irony is that heekscad is located on a google server :D
07:52 < Yocttar> the other minus with heekscad is that its prime download is exe - fooya!!
07:53 < kanzure> it runs on linux
07:53 < kanzure> also i think it's in the debian repositories
07:53 < Yocttar> it does
07:53 < Yocttar> but the featured download?!
07:54 < Yocttar> wtf?! dont feature windows :<
07:54 < kanzure> pmetzger: so, http://designfiles.org/lab/opencascade/part214.exp is the definition for part214
07:54 < kanzure> there's a lot of parameters mentioned for some of the terms
07:54 < kanzure> for instance, line 3984
07:54 < kanzure> the 'edge' type has two parameters 
07:54 < kanzure> also, in some cases there's inheritance on other types
07:56 < kanzure> oh well. maybe i'll just start with a couple.
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08:02 < pmetzger> kanzure: arthur created the ackermann's template if that is what you were asking
08:02 < pmetzger> (been away.)
08:03 < kanzure> was that the right name? because i just got an email from an 'arthur breitman'
08:04 < pmetzger> interesting coincidence. :)
08:04 < pmetzger> what did arthur ask you about?
08:04 < pmetzger> btw: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1098737
08:04 < kanzure> seems to be an email about uploading
08:04 < pmetzger> that's a book I mentioned. Very short, nicely written, doubtless totally unavailable.
08:05 < pmetzger> what mailing list?
08:05 < kanzure> extropy-chat
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08:08 < pmetzger> Wild that descendants of that mailing list still exist: https://groups.google.com/group/sci.nanotech/browse_thread/thread/f54b1a2c212d782b/ccaf128f754ce122?q=extropian#ccaf128f754ce122
08:08 < pmetzger> will be the 19th anniversary of my announcement in a couple of months.
08:10 < kanzure> natasha lives just down the street from me :)
08:10 < kanzure> & max
08:10 < kanzure> haven't seen max in a few months though.. last saw natasha up in boston (it's crazy how far we have to travel just to do dinner)
08:11 < kanzure> google groups is really messed up for me
08:12 < pmetzger> Max and I used to be good friends. Haven't spoken to him in many years.
08:13 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2010-06-21-google-groups.png
08:13 < pmetzger> kanzure: so you can't read that message?
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08:14 < kanzure> pmetzger: yes i can read it
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08:14 < kanzure> i have to scroll down to read it a bit
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08:14 < pmetzger> Perry E. Metzger   	
08:14 < pmetzger> View profile  
08:14 < pmetzger> 	 More options Aug 19 1991, 1:20 pm
08:14 < pmetzger> Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
08:14 < pmetzger> From: metz...@watson.ibm.com (Perry E. Metzger)
08:14 < pmetzger> Date: 19 Aug 91 14:37:59 GMT
08:14 < pmetzger> Local: Mon, Aug 19 1991 10:37 am
08:14 < pmetzger> Subject: Extropians mailing list
08:14 < pmetzger> Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
08:14 < pmetzger> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
08:14 < pmetzger> Extropians
08:14 < pmetzger> contact: extropians-requ...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
08:14 < pmetzger> Extropians is devoted to the discussion and development of Extropian
08:14 < kanzure> ironic that it stops just as it starts sending the actual content ;)
08:14 < pmetzger> hehehehe.
08:15 < kanzure> anyway, i was about to say that it was older than me, but i was born 1990
08:15 < kanzure> so you're in luck
08:15 < pmetzger> You were 1 when I created "Extropians" then. :)
08:16 < kanzure> you created the mailing list?
08:16 < pmetzger> Of course.
08:16 < pmetzger> Aug 19 1991, 1:20 pm
08:16 < pmetzger> Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
08:16 < pmetzger> From: metz...@watson.ibm.com (Perry E. Metzger)
08:16 < pmetzger> Date: 19 Aug 91 14:37:59 GMT
08:16 < pmetzger> Subject: Extropians mailing list
08:16 < pmetzger> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
08:16 < pmetzger> Extropians
08:16 < pmetzger> contact: extropians-requ...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
08:16 < pmetzger> Extropians is devoted to the discussion and development of Extropian
08:16 < pmetzger> ideas. The term "Extropian" was coined by the journal "Extropy", a
08:16 < pmetzger> publication devoted to Extropian philosophy, and this list is a
08:16 < pmetzger> spinoff of the journal. Extropians may be roughly described as those
08:16 < pmetzger> simultaneously interested in anarchocapitalist politics, cryonics (and
08:16 < pmetzger> other life extension techniques), the technological extension of human
08:16 < pmetzger> ah, it throttled me again. :)
08:16 < pmetzger> anyway, yah. August 1991.
08:16 < kanzure> ... do you have archives of the extropy-chat list from pre-2001?
08:17 < pmetzger> We had a rule in the early 1990s that the content was not for public consumption and archives were not to be published.
08:17 < pmetzger> Lots of people discussed things they wanted to be private.
08:17 < pmetzger> I kind of regret the decision now, though at the time it made sense.
08:18 < pmetzger> I dropped off the list around the time I left Lehman Brothers, which would have been the mid 1990s.
08:19 < kanzure> hack hack hack, type type type
08:19 < klafka> so extropianism seems to be a more specific take on trans-humanism ?
08:20 < kanzure> it's kind of the underlying philosophy that nobody knows about any more
08:20 < kanzure> http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm
08:20 < kanzure> 1. Perpetual Progress -- Seeking more intelligence, wisdom, and effectiveness, an indefinite lifespan, and the removal of political, cultural, biological, and psychological limits to self-actualization and self-realization. Perpetually overcoming constraints on our progress and possibilities. Expanding into the universe and advancing without end.
08:20 < kanzure> 2. Self-Transformation -- Affirming continual moral, intellectual, and physical self-improvement, through critical and creative thinking, personal responsibility, and experimentation. Seeking biological and neurological augmentation along with emotional and psychological refinement.
08:21 < kanzure> 3. Practical Optimism -- Fueling action with positive expectations. Adopting a rational, action-based optimism, in place of both blind faith and stagnant pessimism.
08:21 < kanzure> 4. Intelligent Technology -- Applying science and technology creatively to transcend "natural" limits imposed by our biological heritage, culture, and environment. Seeing technology not as an end in itself but as an effective means towards the improvement of life.
08:21 < kanzure> 5. Open Society -- Supporting social orders that foster freedom of speech, freedom of action, and experimentation. Opposing authoritarian social control and favoring the rule of law and decentralization of power. Preferring bargaining over battling, and exchange over compulsion. Openness to improvement rather than a static utopia.
08:21 < kanzure> 6. Self-Direction -- Seeking independent thinking, individual freedom, personal responsibility, self-direction, self-esteem, and respect for others.
08:21 < kanzure> others
08:21 < pmetzger> Extropianism started as the anarchocapitalist transhumanist faction.
08:21 < kanzure> 7. Rational Thinking -- Favoring reason over blind faith and questioning over dogma. Remaining open to challenges to our beliefs and practices in pursuit of perpetual improvement. Welcoming criticism of our existing beliefs while being open to new ideas.
08:21 < klafka> aah
08:21 < pmetzger> The "Anarchocapitalist" part was retconned away after Natasha married Max.
08:21 < klafka> oh anarcho-capitalism
08:21 < klafka> heh
08:21 < kanzure> pmetzger: so are you familiar with all the bullshit drama with WTA, james hughes, "those damned libertarian extropians!" etc?
08:22 < kanzure> it's still very rampant in the community and literature
08:22 < pmetzger> Not very deeply familiar. I was not involved at that point and I avoid James Hughes.
08:22 < kanzure> good man
08:22 < pmetzger> I am not interested in fighting about things.
08:22 < kanzure> okay, well, you're better off for it
08:22 < pmetzger> I want to build things.
08:22 < pmetzger> The reason I dropped off was to some extent that talking was the only thing we did.
08:23 < kanzure> for a while the 'politics of it' started to creep into my pants and touch me in ways that i don't want to describe :/
08:23 < klafka> that seems to be a big problem with the transhumanist movement in general
08:23 < pmetzger> But anyway, if you read early issues of "Extropy", the politics are up front and center. I think Natasha was upset about that and Max kind of went along.
08:24 < pmetzger> And I'll leave it there.
08:24 < kanzure> klafka: not only that, but there's a part of the community that has 'money' 
08:24 < kanzure> i mean, they are reasonably well off individuals
08:24 < kanzure> who are thinking of these things in terms of "what should i invest in"
08:24 < kanzure> i.e. because of the futurism of ray kurzweil and such
08:24 < pmetzger> "what should I invest in" is a useless question in a singularity context.
08:24 < kanzure> instead of "where do i buy a piezo actuator?"
08:24 < kanzure> or "how do i make a piezo tube" :P
08:25 < pmetzger> I'm reasonably well off but that's not why I am involved.
08:25 < kanzure> right
08:25 < kanzure> i just mean a few of the people have vested interests in intellectual property that they own, and such
08:25 < klafka> aah
08:25 < pmetzger> Ah, Intellectual "Property". 
08:27 < kanzure> hm defining a cube in STEP is much more complicated than defining a sphere
08:27 < kanzure> by about a factor of 10 (lines)
08:27 < klafka> we better hope we're not on a sigmoid curve as opposed to an exponential
08:27 < pmetzger> A sphere is a single point and a radius
08:27 < kanzure> pmetzger: yes but in the STEP standard it takes about 32 lines to define a sphere
08:27 < kanzure> (apparently)
08:27 < pmetzger> a cube is a set of six intersecting semi-spaces.
08:27  * kanzure was making some test files
08:27 < pmetzger> Nice and compact format then! :)
08:28 < pmetzger> if they did it in the mid-1990s they might have used ASN-1. Later they might have used XML. I love committee generated data formats. :)
08:28 < kanzure> i don't :(
08:28  * kanzure leers at ebxml and B2B bullshit
08:29  * klafka boos at SBML
08:30 < kanzure> yeah no kidding
08:30 < kanzure> i've worked with that one.
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08:30 < klafka> seriously fucking hate it
08:30 < klafka> idk it's better than anything biologists would do though
08:30 < kanzure> what on earth were you doing with SBML anyway?
08:31 < klafka> SBML is used all the time for biological network models
08:31 < kanzure> we're talking about the systems biology markup language right?
08:31 < klafka> yep
08:31 < kanzure> kk just making sure
08:31 < klafka> fucking around with metabolic network simulators
08:31 < kanzure> tau/gillespie simulations maybe?
08:31 < kanzure> *gillepsie
08:32 < pmetzger> I have my own quirks on this. I think everything should always be S-expressions, which may be just as crazy.
08:33 < klafka> nah, linear programming models, based of Palsson's stuff, using their COBRA toolbox
08:34 < klafka> why do you prefer s-expressions to xml
08:44 < kanzure> #17 = ADVANCED_FACE('',(#18),#22,.T.);
08:44 < kanzure> what do you think .T. means?
08:44 < pmetzger> I'm an old lisp hacker. Old lisp hackers are always disappointed that they aren't using lisp. :)
08:44 < pmetzger> Grep for .T. in the specs? :)
08:45 < kanzure> it's not there :(
08:45 < pmetzger> is that in one of the files you sent me?
08:46 < kanzure> it's probably in one of the .ap203.step files in the sw-reverser.zip file
08:46 < kanzure> seems to be used commonly
08:46 < pmetzger> indeed it is.
08:46 < pmetzger> I just grepped across
08:47 < pmetzger> but I saw no unmatched single quotes of the sort you found there
08:47 < pmetzger> er, double quotes.
08:47 < pmetzger> you had a (", there.
08:47 < kanzure> where? on my line #17?
08:47 < kanzure> those are single quotes
08:47 < pmetzger> two single quotes?
08:47 < pmetzger> ah.
08:47  * kanzure nods
08:47 < pmetzger> this IRC client sucks ass.
08:47 < pmetzger> I may go back to emacs.
08:48 < pmetzger> I'd read the EXPRESS spec.
08:48 < kanzure> jrayhawk: a prime opportunity to sell a new customer over to the GNU --suck-ass=off option
08:48 < pmetzger> I'm using colloquy on OS X but it seems to work very poorly a lot of the time.
08:49 < pmetzger> and the font choices are not very smart
08:50 < kanzure> oh
08:50 < kanzure> it's a boolean
08:50 < pmetzger> true!
08:50 < pmetzger> :)
08:50 < Utopiah> #nerdhumor
08:51 < kanzure> #notlame
08:51 < pmetzger> is .F. false?
08:51 < kanzure> correct (see what i did there?)
08:51 < pmetzger> ???
08:51 < kanzure> i could have said 'true' but then you would be confused
08:52 < kanzure> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I+see+what+you+did+there
08:52 < pmetzger> :)
08:53 < Utopiah> gosh, 2 jokes in a day, that channel has changed ;)
08:53 < kanzure> jrayhawk: where's the iseewhatyoudidthere blog thing?
08:53 < kanzure> interesting that instantrimshot.com shows up in a search for "i see what you did there gallery"
08:53 < kanzure> gasp instantrimshot.com has changed its layout :(
08:54 < kanzure> hahah
08:54 < kanzure> http://whatport80.com/Main_Page
08:54 < kanzure> what?! port 80?!
09:03 < kanzure> pmetzger: in toe-clamp.ap203.step check out line 909 (#882 = ...)
09:03 < kanzure> in particular, the last parameter to ADVANCED_BREP_SHAPE_REPRESENTATION is #858
09:03 < kanzure> and i don't really understand what entity #858 is doing.. it seems to be a list, but without commas?
09:03 < kanzure> the spec says that it should be a list
09:03 < pmetzger> I see commas
09:04 < pmetzger> oh, wait
09:04 < kanzure> all i see is this: ( GEOMETRIC_REPRESENTATION_CONTEXT ( 3 ) GLOBAL_UNCERTAINTY_ASSIGNED_CONTEXT ( ( #859 ) ) et.
09:04 < kanzure> *etc
09:04 < pmetzger> okay, I think that is data dictionary language creeping in.
09:05 < kanzure> so it's definitely a list?
09:05 < pmetzger> I don't know. Haven't read the definition of the language.
09:05 < pmetzger> Do you have the BNF handy?
09:05 < kanzure> no, i have the EXPRESS file though
09:06 < pmetzger> does the EXPRESS file have a BNF in it?
09:06 < pmetzger> EXPRESS definition?
09:06 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/lab/opencascade/part214.exp
09:06 < pmetzger> yah, I think we would need to read the EXPRESS spec's BNF.
09:07 < pmetzger> search in that file for geometric_representation_context..
09:07 < kanzure> did :)
09:07 < pmetzger> I don't know what an entity definition means so I can't quite grok it...
09:07 < kanzure> basically it inherits from "ENTITY representation" earlier in the file
09:08 < pmetzger> but it seems to be a type...
09:08 < kanzure>   items : SET[1:?] OF representation_item;
09:08 < kanzure>   context_of_items : representation_context;
09:08 < pmetzger> representation_context you meant...
09:08 < kanzure> nope, representation_context goes up the ladder..
09:08 < kanzure> er, wait
09:08 < kanzure> okay, you're right
09:09 < pmetzger> I don't know this language, that's the problem.
09:09 < pmetzger> no EXPRESS spec handy?
09:09 < pmetzger> a BNF for EXPRESS would help
09:10 < kanzure> not handy, no
09:11 < pmetzger> ISO 10303 seems to be what we'd want.
09:11 < pmetzger> Sadly ISO sells all their specs instead of giving them away
09:12 < Yocttar> damn, working with this heekscad is a nightmare :(
09:13 < kanzure> pmetzger: http://web.archive.org/web/20030216045110/www.nist.gov/sc4/step/parts/ ;-)
09:13 < kanzure> one of the lower-number part numbers is the EXPRESS spec, iirc
09:14 < pmetzger> express-x is apparently an interconversion spec for multiple express schemas...
09:15 < pmetzger>     * EXPRESS Language Reference Manual (ISO 10303-11). Held in a vault, apparently, and guarded by 60 men, to ensure that no one can actually consult it.
09:16 < pmetzger> that's from a web page I saw
09:16 < kanzure> i read somewhere once that the military has huge data centers still running with old school tape drives and data silos with robotic arms and all sorts of magic
09:17 < kanzure> just for storing mass volumes of STEP files for design schematics
09:17 < pmetzger> why is STEP a win again?
09:18 < kanzure> if i'm going to be doing a CSG/geometry/solid modeling API, i'm going to export to a solid geometry format (which this is)
09:19 < pmetzger> and you can't just make up your own for now? :)
09:19 < kanzure> who would be able to use it?
09:19 < pmetzger> anyone using your tools, but I admit that's lame.
09:19 < kanzure> solidworks, autocad, pro/e, alibre, opencascade, etc. all support STEP
09:19 < pmetzger> what does AUTOCAD do?
09:19 < pmetzger> okay. gotcha.
09:19 < pmetzger> so I think you're going to need to sleaze yourself copies of the ISO docs.
09:20 < kanzure> :) i was looking around on the ANSI website
09:20 < kanzure> and it's actually possible to exploit it
09:20 < pmetzger> someone doubtless has them electronically and can disgorge them. you'll need to find that person in private.
09:20 < kanzure> they use a windows-based file server to give you "samples" of certain documents
09:20 < kanzure> and they follow a standard file naming convention
09:20 < kanzure> well, i've searched for people who might have the docs, and it's a tough one
09:20 < pmetzger> I think stealing from ANSI may not be something you want to discuss loudly in public.
09:20 < kanzure> HAI GUYS, I DOWNLOADED ALL OF NATURE.COM AND TORRENTED IT
09:20 < kanzure> hrm
09:20 < kanzure> well anyway, it was unsuccessful
09:21 < kanzure> i couldn't figure out the naming conventions entirely
09:21 < pmetzger> The format here looks pretty simple. it just has messy bits.
09:21 < pmetzger> the spec probably is huge and has only 20 pages you care about.
09:22 < pmetzger> I hate ISO specs for this reason.
09:22 < pmetzger> Luckily the OSI stack died the true death, except for X.509 and the use of ASN.1 for things like SNMP.
09:23 < pmetzger> I still chuckle when I think that people once expected x.400 to beat SMTP.
09:23 < eridu> kanzure: did you really?
09:24 < eridu> kanzure: by the way, that rsync thing never got set up, did it?
09:25 < pmetzger> one thing you may be able to do. draft ISO standards frequently circulate, and the drafts are frequently indistinguishable from the final.
09:25 < kanzure> eridu: which rsync thing?
09:25 < pmetzger> I tried googling a bit and saw nothing but you may be more determined than me.
09:25 < kanzure> eridu: no, never set up the torrent.. sorry :/
09:25 < kanzure> jrayhawk: did you setup a torrent for that yet? :D
09:26 < eridu> kanzure: I think it was on the diybio/tt lists; involving you, eugen leitl, and some other people; I grabbed everything linked and waited for things to materialize, but they didn't
09:26 < kanzure> aha
09:26 < pmetzger> kanzure: see this page? http://xml.coverpages.org/stepExpressXML.html
09:26 < pmetzger> at the bottom are broken links to the express BNF.
09:26 < kanzure> i've seen stepxml if it's the same thing
09:26 < pmetzger> maybe archive.org still has them?
09:27 < pmetzger> bb later.
09:27 < kanzure> eridu: yeah, nobody went through on that apparently
09:27 < kanzure> pmetzger: http://web.archive.org/web/20010425213445/http://www.systematic.dk/manuals/imt/html_unix/imt235.htm
09:32 < pmetzger> from that, you can create a parser really fast.
09:33 < pmetzger> bb later
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10:09 < pmetzger> back.
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10:10 < Yocttar> kanzure: realy, heekscad isnt realy usable right now... what is the modelling software reprappers use?
10:11 < kristianpaul> is usable
10:11 < kristianpaul> check linuxgrapics
10:11 < kristianpaul> peopel in france use it
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10:11 < kristianpaul> Yocttar: they uses AOI
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10:12 < kristianpaul> not a cad but works
10:12 < kristianpaul> other uses Openscad
10:12 < kristianpaul> and surelly other propietary stuff
10:13 < kanzure> Yocttar: http://openscad.org/
10:13 < kristianpaul> Yocttar: http://www.linuxgraphic.org/component/search/?searchword=heekscad&ordering=&searchphrase=all
10:14 < kristianpaul> kanzure: i saw people using blender + openscad, are you aware of it?
10:14 < kanzure> yes openscad has a dxf and stl import
10:14 < Alystair> http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/01/15/garden/20090115_HONGKONG_index.html <- I finally got the book shipped from China about this apartment
10:15 < Alystair> it's about this apartment that's 32mē that has 24 different rooms in it
10:15 < Alystair> such a fantastic architect
10:15 < kristianpaul> indeed
10:16  * kristianpaul amazed
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10:48 < Yocttar> kristianpaul: not very usable on Ubuntu, tried with wine, bit more usable.. anyhow, seems like OpenSCAD is better... I'll checkout AOI now
10:52 < Yocttar>  AOI is another windows loving app :(
10:52 < Yocttar> bad start!
10:55 < Yocttar> any1 else had problems with AOI installer fonts  ? (ubuntu 10.04)
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11:04 < kristianpaul> I dont Yocttar 
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11:05 < kristianpaul> i just installed a run smothly 
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11:22 < kanzure> can anyone think of a reason that an individual (not a government or anything like that) would need or find very useful a heatmap of infections and the distribution of different organisms across a map?
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11:27 < pmetzger> an infectious disease researcher might.
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11:33 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/lab/opencascade/pystep.output.txt woops
11:34 < kanzure> guess the output is a bit wrong :P
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11:49 < Yocttar> where should I upload my sexy dice openSCAD script?
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12:17 < Yocttar> I've put it on thingverse! http://www.thingiverse.com/download:9961
12:19 < Yocttar> btw, what license  should I use if I don't care who use it as long as he put my name as a contributer? ^^
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12:39 < pmetzger> one of the creative commons licenses. but you can probably find that out from thingiverse
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13:14 < jrayhawk> Jules cleaned up the hierarchy for me, so I guess I should do that.
13:19 < kanzure> do wut?
13:33 < AJollyLife> cc with attribution
13:34 < jcluck> kanzure: http://bioweathermap.org/
13:34 < kanzure> jcluck: yes i'm aware of it
13:35 < kanzure> but i was more thinking along the line of "consumer data"
13:35 < jcluck> oh
13:35 < kanzure> i.e. what sort of consumer use of that data would you make? i can't come up with anything
13:35 < kanzure> other than "gotta catch 'em all"
13:35 < jcluck> dude a pokedex of bacteria would rule
13:35 < Utopiah> just shakes somebody hand :-#
13:36 < jcluck> kanzure corporations might find it useful, but I'm not sure consumers are into that kind of data yet
13:37 < kanzure> i don't mean "into"
13:37 < kanzure> if people were vulnerable to certain bacteria, having that data as to where local outbreaks are would be useful
13:38 < kanzure> it would be the same with diets- "the local food supply has an outbreak of blah"
13:38 < jcluck> ehh, almost every kind of bacteria is everywhere
13:38 < kanzure> but that doesn't work too well because food is shipped in from everywhere
13:38 < kanzure> that's true, but there are very specific strains all over the place
13:38 < jcluck> yeah
13:38 < jcluck> there was uh
13:38 < jcluck> hmm
13:38 < kanzure> and we don't quite yet have data on how those very specific strains interact with the body
13:38 < kanzure> in most cases, it's probably a zilch interaction
13:38 < jcluck> a bag of celery that I bought last week that had laboratory approval
13:38 < kanzure> but that's about the only reason i could see a consumer being interested in this
13:39 < jcluck> http://primuslabs.com/
13:39 < jcluck> food safety, I guess
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15:38 < fenn> kanzure please send me a zip of those step documents from nist/archive
15:43 < fenn> "optical fiber BCI" - the stanford mouse thing? where it runs around in circles
15:45 < fenn> by karl deisseroth
15:47 < Utopiah> optogenetics?
15:47 < Utopiah> http://www.stanford.edu/group/dlab/optogenetics/
15:58 < pmetzger> wow. I just built GAMESS from scratch for the first time. It is clearly not the product of computer scientists...
15:58 < kanzure> fenn: no, i don't think so
15:58 < kanzure> Utopiah: definitely not
15:59 < kanzure> pmetzger: the neuron simulator? or is that something else
15:59 < kanzure> maybe that's a molecular chemistry simulator
15:59 < kanzure> i forget :(
15:59 < kanzure> fenn: but yeah i'll zip the stuff up. do you want all of it, or just the express files?
15:59 < pmetzger> quantum chemistry program.
15:59 < pmetzger> useful if you're trying to do calculations on molecules.
16:00 < Utopiah> http://dirac.cnrs-orleans.fr/MMTK/ ?
16:01 < Utopiah> (and stanford optogenetics lab is with Karl Deisseroth)
16:04 < fenn> kanzure: i want the .tex files, which appear to be the actual standards documents, perhaps not. you can get the express files from anywhere, or the iso website
16:06 < kanzure> for now: http://designfiles.org/lab/opencascade/AP214_CD.tex there are also style files that go along with this
16:06 < kanzure> er, let it upload first
16:10 < kanzure> ok
16:10 < pmetzger> Utopiah: MMTK doesn't do quantum stuff so far as I know.
16:10 < pmetzger> but I could be wrong, I'm not that sophisticated/experienced in the area.
16:11 < Utopiah> pmetzger: Im not either, http://pyquante.sourceforge.net/ does afaik
16:11 < Utopiah> maybe http://openbabel.org/ too
16:11 < pmetzger> openbabel is a converter for data files.
16:12 < pmetzger> pyquante seems to be a work in progress.
16:12 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/lab/opencascade/apv12.sty is a style file
16:12 < kanzure> fori t
16:12 < kanzure> *for it
16:18 < QuantumG> Last year Freeman Dyson did an interview and spoke about Nukes, The Space Program and Domesticated Genomes. http://bit.ly/Wznqd
16:19 < QuantumG> guessing you saw the last part.
16:22 < kanzure> QuantumG: have you seen this list i keep? http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ#Has_DIYbio_been_in_the_news.3F
16:22 < QuantumG> no, but I'll check it in future :)
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16:28 < kanzure> diygenomics project on scienceforcitizens.net http://www.scienceforcitizens.net/project/299/
16:29 < kanzure> hah their logo
16:29 < kanzure> http://www.scienceforcitizens.net/static/ajaxfields/images/2010-06-17/DIYgenomics_logo.png
16:29 < QuantumG> nice
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17:51  * AJollyLife cries. the next H+ conference conflicts with a second conference. my top conferences ever, and they conflict. 
17:52 < jrayhawk> If it's a related subject, they'd probably want to reschedule anyway.
17:52 < AJollyLife> similar types of minds, not *entirely* related.  https://conference.think.org/about/faq.html
17:53 < AJollyLife> also, all H+ photos are posted - http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajolly/sets/72157624141398171/
17:57 < jcluck> AJollyLife that was a pretty good picture of me :D
17:58 < AJollyLife> jcluck: which one?
17:58 < jcluck> I think the only one you got of me...
17:58 < jcluck> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajolly/4696894562/in/set-72157624141398171/
18:00 < AJollyLife> ahh yeah, i like that shot
18:00 < AJollyLife> feel free to tag it if you want
18:00 < kanzure> so why is this next hplus conference about longevity? wasn't alex going for a computational neuroscience theme
18:01 < jcluck> I made it my fb profile pic....
18:01 < kanzure> hey not too shabby
18:01 < AJollyLife> i really need to go through all the cards/contacts/fb stuff I met at h+
18:01 < kanzure> AJollyLife: i did mine the first day :)
18:01 < kanzure> bwahaha
18:01 < AJollyLife> i went straight to another con...
18:01 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/meetlog.txt ph33r
18:01 < kanzure> that's because you're lame
18:01 < kanzure> uh, or something
18:01 < jcluck> AJollyLife, it reminds me of this: http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr172/andahotplate/HatersGonnaHate.jpg
18:02 < AJollyLife> wow, you are far too organized
18:02 < AJollyLife> im sorta jealous
18:02 < kanzure> ha ha ha
18:02 < AJollyLife> i want a computer to do that stuff for me
18:02 < AJollyLife> log all of my life :D
18:02 < kanzure> yeah i had a few plugins at one point
18:02 < kanzure> to do pidgin/gmail integration
18:03 -!- Phreedom [~quassel@109.254.6.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:04 < AJollyLife> I am = http://www.facebook.com/AJollyLife 
18:05 < kanzure> i am >= http://www.facebook.com/..
18:05 < kanzure> i am >= http://www.facebook.com/*
18:05 < kanzure> heh
18:05 < AJollyLife> lol
18:05 < jcluck> hahaha
18:08 < AJollyLife> seriously, you guys have no idea how upset I am about this conference conflict date thing :(
18:09 < jcluck> shit happens, man....
18:10 < AJollyLife> yeah. have *no* idea which one I want to go to more though
18:10 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:21 < pmetzger> H+ was interesting only for the people I met there. I was disappointed in many of the talks.
18:21 < pmetzger> I really don't want to hear about what sort of business models will work after the singularity. the whole point of the term "singularity" is that predictions of the world after that are impossible.
18:21  * kanzure nods
18:22 < pmetzger> And the talk explaining how we evolved to age was really awful. I mean, yes, that was a very good hypothesis 40 years ago, but the community conducted experiments and found it is not true.
18:22 < pmetzger> So why did we get a whole talk on that?
18:22 < kanzure> nobody reads the literature (nobody)
18:22 < kanzure> stop ranting and start reading :P http://designfiles.org/papers/longevity/
18:22 < pmetzger> (I think Gavrilov's demonstration that the death curve in the elderly matches the statistical expectation for equipment failure was the final nail for me.)
18:24 < pmetzger> a full 30% of the talks made me cringe and wonder why the person was talking. OTOH, I met a lot of cool people.
18:24 < kanzure> nepotism
18:24 < pmetzger> OTOH, I also met a guy who explained to me that his startup is going to duplicate people's personalities by asking them questions online and producing models from that.
18:25 < pmetzger> And there were worse.
18:25 < kanzure> heh.. yeah, isn't that Cyber Twin
18:25 < kanzure> or uh
18:25 < kanzure> the one by Martine/Martin (i forget which gender (s)he is today) Rothblott?
18:25 < kanzure> CyBeRev?
18:25 < pmetzger> Those names don't ring a bell. I threw away his business card. I made the mistake of initially thinking he was sane because he criticized Wolfram's talk.
18:26 < kanzure> hah
18:26 < pmetzger> "Just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean they're otherwise reasonable..."
18:26 < kanzure> yeah, i'm surprised more people aren't catching on to wolfram's crap
18:26 < kanzure> to the point where something like that shouldn't show up on either of our radars
18:27 < pmetzger> well, to people who know no math or physics or what have you, a talk like that, presented by the conference organizers with big fanfare, will seem impressive.
18:27 < pmetzger> the issue is both that few people have any background and that he was given a full scale platform and lots of deference.
18:28 < pmetzger> wow. just calculating the positions of the nucleii in adamantane took an hour on one core of my laptop. "there is a reason to use a cluster instead..."
18:29 < pmetzger> I wonder if I can sleaze a jaguar license out of my friends. might be a lot faster...
18:31 < pmetzger> OTOH, using closed source is sort of against my ethos. OTOH, I'd like to be able to run calcs a lot faster...
18:32 < kanzure> have you considered running the stuff on amazon ec2?
18:32 < pmetzger> that's more expensive than using our own clusters.
18:32 < pmetzger> the big problem right now is that the guy I work with has run out of AC.
18:32 < pmetzger> he has a brand new 24 node cluster in boxes that he can't run without more air.
18:33 < kanzure> heh
18:33 < pmetzger> also has an 11 node cluster we built a while back that isn't on because of heat.
18:33 < pmetzger> I'm probably going to move that one to my lab.
18:33 < pmetzger> EC2 is not very economical for most purposes.
18:33 < pmetzger> it is very good if you need to be able to expand your web farm by 20x in response to /. posting a story about you.
18:34 < pmetzger> it sucks if you are really going to run 24x7 year round.
18:34 < pmetzger> you are much better off with your own machines then, cost wise.
18:34 < kanzure> i made the mistake of getting slashdoted while i was hosting heybryan.org at home back when i was in high school
18:34 < kanzure> *slashdotted
18:35 < kanzure> it takes a bit longer than an hour or two to get up on ec2 i think
18:35 < jcluck> lol
18:35 < pmetzger> the notion is in general that if you have a web app but don't want to run your own machine room, you run on a couple of instances there but you use the APIs to automatically grow your cluster on demand.
18:36 < pmetzger> you need to be set up to do that from the start.
18:36 < pmetzger> I've looked at a couple of business plans that would have involved doing something like that.
18:39 < pmetzger> several other companies are now offering similar services using the same APIs btw.
18:40 < kanzure> that's basically what i'm doing for a few projects
18:40 < kanzure> like say.io 
18:40 < pmetzger> say.io?
18:40 < kanzure> user goes to say.io -> types in their phone number -> they get a phone call and are asked to pronounce their name -> they get a link to put in their email signature (or whatever) so people know how to say their name
18:40 < kanzure> the working name is "project namefreak" or "say my name"
18:41 < pmetzger> cute idea. :)
18:41 < kanzure> it's because i can't pronounce anyone's name :(
18:41 < kanzure> well, most of the time
18:41 < pmetzger> Wish I had thought of that one. :)
18:41 < kanzure> and besides
18:41 < kanzure> imagine going into a board room at some top company or something
18:41 < pmetzger> it could make some revenue from ads etc.
18:42 < kanzure> and getting every single one of their names right
18:42 < kanzure> well, acftually, people might pay a few bucks a month or year for this
18:42 < kanzure> but i dunno
18:43 < pmetzger> Google ads or what have you I think...
18:44 < pmetzger> alex backer, he's the one that gave the already-known-wrong talk on aging being something we evolved to do.
18:44 < kanzure> ah
18:44 < kanzure> he's doing a new project now
18:44 < pmetzger> he might be a nice guy, but I would hope for better review of talks in advance...
18:44 < kanzure> http://mynew.tv/
18:45 < kanzure> it's a youtube recommendation thing
18:45 < pmetzger> I don't like talks that state already disproven hypotheses.
18:45 < kanzure> me either
18:47 < kanzure> there's a lot of politics going on behind the scene
18:47 < kanzure> like alex being all sleazy to get young girls..
18:47 < kanzure> *ahem* why in the hell did singularityu.org sponsor an iphone app for transportation?
18:47 < kanzure> (lightman)
18:47 < kanzure> namespace conflict
18:49 < pmetzger> you mean as speakers or as dates?
18:50 < kanzure> mostly as speakers, but i wouldn't be surprised :P
18:51 < jcluck> he winked at me too
18:51 < pmetzger> The DWave talk was also a disappointment...
18:51 < kanzure> pmetzger: so, alex has been trying to get more "prominent people" to talk
18:51 < kanzure> to upvote the overall prominence or whatever of the conferences
18:52 < kanzure> somewhat at the sacrifice of uh, everyone
18:52 < jcluck> heh
18:52 < jcluck> is that why it cost so much to go? :)
18:52 < jcluck> kurzweil can't be cheap
18:52 < pmetzger> The way one usually does this in mainstream conferences is program committees and careful screening of talks.
18:52 < pmetzger> Ray was paid to show up?
18:52 < jcluck> dunno
18:52 < kanzure> there are no committees for these conferences, that's for sure
18:52 < kanzure> (since i was a speaker)
18:52 < jcluck> haha
18:53 < pmetzger> I'd hate to think I paid to hear him give the same talk I've heard before.
18:53 < pmetzger> I think he's a very smart and interesting guy, but everyone there knew what he said already.
18:53 < jcluck> I didn't!
18:53 < kanzure> uh, jcluck how is that possible
18:53 < jcluck> but I also got up halfway through his talk to go speak to the purple tornado
18:53 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2010/d2-ray-kurzweil.html
18:54 < kanzure> type in any one of his sentences into google
18:54 < jcluck> kanzure I don't really pay attention to him at all
18:56 < pmetzger> actually, I hadn't heard him make the SETI comment before
18:56 < jcluck> hmm
18:56 < jcluck> I forget her name
18:57 < pmetzger> and I was pleased, given that I
18:57 < pmetzger> ve been saying the same thing for years, cf: http://www.piermont.com/blog/archives/permalinks/2004-07-26T11_36_22.html
18:57 < kanzure> heh :)
18:57 < pmetzger> (I really need to resurrect my blog. haven't posted in like 6 years.)
18:57 < kanzure> yay you talk about light cones
18:58 < kanzure> nobody talks about light cones any more :(
18:59 < kanzure> i use 'the singularity is near' as a laptop rest pad so it doesn't overheat when i place it on the carpet
18:59 < jcluck> hahaha
18:59 < pmetzger> Light cones are the only sane thing to talk about since WMAP says we're in an infinite universe...
19:00 < pmetzger> so you can't sanely talk about the universe not containing X. It contains X somewhere if X is physically possible.
19:00 < QuantumG> nonsense
19:01 < kanzure> QuantumG: there was a principle by the philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz
19:01 < pmetzger> QuantumG: nonsense? why?
19:01 < kanzure> that claimed that if something is necessary and true, then it is physically possible
19:01 < kanzure> er wait
19:01 < kanzure> no philosophy
19:01 < pmetzger> more to the point, any finite volume has only a finite number of quantum states it can be in.
19:01 < pmetzger> and there is a probability of a particular state...
19:01 < jcluck> your mom is a probability of a particular state
19:02 < kanzure> please don't try to convert us to MWI or copenhagen intrepretations, btw
19:02 < pmetzger> so given an infinite universe, you would expect that any given state you can name is out there.
19:02 < kanzure> we'll kickban you (figuratively)
19:02 < AJollyLife> pmetzger: for me the whole point of cons is the people i meet
19:02 < pmetzger> I'm saying nothing Max Tegmark hasn't said. I'm cribbing from him largely.
19:02  * kanzure remembers reading tegmark a while ago
19:02 < kanzure> but it was a long time ago
19:02 < pmetzger> ajollylife: then the con should be an unconference so we can spend all our time talking to interesting people instead. :)
19:03 < pmetzger> I prefer the hallway track by far. :)
19:03 < pmetzger> Tegmark has interesting ideas.
19:03 < kanzure> but i don't recall him saying anything about an infinite expanse out there in the galaxies
19:03 < QuantumG> pmetzger: you're aware the universe is finite right?  So all I have to do is postulate an X that takes up all the finite space of the universe.  Then look to see if I am sitting next to an X.  As I am not, your thesis is incorrect.
19:03 < AJollyLife> kanzure: martine rothblatt, she lives a few miles from me
19:03 < pmetzger> QuantumG: you're wrong.
19:03 < kanzure> btw are you familiar with lee smolin's quantum loop gravity and blackhole thing?
19:03 < pmetzger> QuantumG: look up WMAP.
19:03 < kanzure> AJollyLife: you mean he. she's a she when she's martin, right?
19:03 < pmetzger> The universe is flat, isotropic, infinite, so far as we can tell.
19:04 < QuantumG> I'm wrong about the universe being finite?  Did I magically teleport back to the 1800s or what?
19:04 < pmetzger> Unless, of course, WMAP is wrong, but all the other data, like the lyman alpha forest data, says it is correct.
19:04 < pmetzger> The universe is not finite, no.
19:04 < pmetzger> we settled that question with the WMAP experiment.
19:04 < pmetzger> if you don't know about it, well, sorry.
19:04 < pmetzger> but it is true.
19:04 < pmetzger> I won't claim it is 100% settled, but I'd say the data is VERY compelling at this point.
19:05 < pmetzger> all the large scale cosmographical measurements agree with WMAP to within their error margins so I think WMAP is unlikely to be overturned.
19:05 < pmetzger> though the Planck spacecraft is trying to replicate/improve the measurement now.
19:06 < AJollyLife> kanzure: she is currently a she
19:06 < kanzure> k got it
19:06 < AJollyLife> pmetzger: yes, the hallway track is the best part
19:06 < AJollyLife> the real reason i was in half the talks is because I had to take photos
19:06 < pmetzger> WMAP: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/WMAP
19:06 < jcluck> AJollyLife, who?
19:07 < AJollyLife> jcluck: Martine Rothblatt
19:07 < QuantumG> I've never heard WMAP used as evidence for an infinite universe.. and I'm pretty sure the Standard Model of Cosmology hasn't been overturned.
19:07 < pmetzger> you haven't heard?
19:07 < pmetzger> hahahaha
19:08 < QuantumG> in short, crack smoking, you should probably quit it
19:08 < jcluck> o_O
19:08 < pmetzger> okay, well, then you didn't understand the papers. not my problem. :)
19:08 < pmetzger> It says the universe is flat and isotropic. you want them to write it in large letters with magic marker so you can understand better? :)
19:08 < pmetzger> what do you think "flat" and "isotropic" mean in this context? :)
19:09 < kanzure> pmetzger: you should link to papers more often
19:09 < kanzure> instead of vaguely alluding to them
19:09 < pmetzger> flat geometry = open topology. isotropic = everywhere else is like here.
19:09 < pmetzger> the links off the wikipedia page to the NASA page have all the publications.
19:10 < pmetzger> http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/
19:10 < pmetzger> the web site is pretty extensive.
19:11 < pmetzger> Tegmark wrote a popular piece for Scientific American that discussed the implications in great detail. I'll find a link to his expanded version of that.
19:11 < QuantumG> which just means you're taking fringe science and pretending it is established
19:11 < pmetzger> No, it isn't fringe science. It is totally mainstream.
19:11 < QuantumG> when it is established we can have a conversation, until then you're totally on crack.
19:12 < pmetzger> You go to any reasonable university and the talks on cosmology assume it.
19:12 < pmetzger> No, you just demonstrated that you aren't up to date on research, that's all.
19:12 < pmetzger> I've heard maybe six or seven talks at Columbia and Penn in the last few years that all assume what I just said.
19:12 < pmetzger> Just because you don't know it doesn't make it "Crack".
19:13 < pmetzger> so, say it is crack. tell me what is wrong with the WMAP data then that indicates that the universe isn't flat?
19:13 < pmetzger> what's your alternative to the CMB info?
19:13 < pmetzger> other than invective?
19:14 < pmetzger> you have some data to indicate the WMAP conclusions are wrong?
19:14 < QuantumG> do you have any data to confirm that it's right?
19:14 < pmetzger> Yes. As I said, the WMAP data agrees with things like the lyman alpha data and the supernova data.
19:14 < pmetzger> and other data.
19:14 < pmetzger> all to within the error of measurement.
19:15 < pmetzger> so I see no reason to indicate that WMAP is wrong.
19:15 < QuantumG> assuming it even says what you say it says cause you've yet to provide a reference that does
19:15 < pmetzger> I showed you the NASA site. click.
19:15 < pmetzger> read the papers. they're on there.
19:15 < pmetzger> I don't have to spoonfeed it to you, you have google and the rest.
19:15 < QuantumG> why do you have so much trouble providing references?
19:15 < pmetzger> I did provide a reference.
19:15 < pmetzger> I gave you a link to the papers.
19:15 < pmetzger> click.
19:15 < QuantumG> you have google too, google "how to reference"
19:15 < pmetzger> read.
19:16 < pmetzger> I gave you the page.
19:16 < pmetzger> not my problem if you won't click to read.
19:16 < pmetzger> here are all the papers: http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/map/current/map_bibliography.cfm
19:16 < pmetzger> click on that link, then click on the links for the individual PDFs.
19:17 < pmetzger> you want me to download the pdfs and email them to you? I don't see what more you can ask for here.
19:19 < QuantumG> you really don't know how to provide a reference do you?
19:19 < pmetzger> I believe handing you a page of references is indeed providing a reference.
19:19 < pmetzger> I think you're just a troll.
19:19 < pmetzger> If you care to provide evidence otherwise, you're free to.
19:20 < pmetzger> those are all reasonable, peer reviewed papers.
19:20 < pmetzger> Here's the money shot: measured curvature, flat to within the 1% error bar.
19:20 < pmetzger> isotropic.
19:20 < QuantumG> anyway, let's say I agree with your statement that the universe is infinite.. I still win.  "you can't sanely talk about the universe not containing X. It contains X somewhere if X is physically possible."  Let X = an infinitely large cheesecake.  I am not sitting in cheesecake, therefore you are wrong.
19:21 < pmetzger> Not proof that you're not a troll yet.
19:23 < pmetzger> here is tegmark (who is a totally mainstream researcher) on the implications: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0302131v1
19:23 < pmetzger> that's the technical version of the paper he popularized in SciAm.
19:23 < kanzure> yay a direct link
19:23  * kanzure celebrates :)
19:24 < pmetzger> I think a page of direct links is better than me cutting every link off of the page of direct links and pasting them in to IRC for someone.
19:24 < pmetzger> one can easily click on http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/map/current/map_bibliography.cfm and see lots of pdfs directly linked there.
19:24 < kanzure> i like bibliographies as well
19:24 < kanzure> but 
19:24 < kanzure> to be fair, a direct reference for a claim is more common
19:25 < QuantumG> and, ya know, saying what it is about the direct reference that actually supports your case is nice
19:25 < kanzure> anyway, i'm definitely going to pay the tegmark article a visit
19:25 < kanzure> oh please
19:25 < jrayhawk> actually in this case it might've shut up QuantumG for long enough for him to glance through them, which I don't really see a downside to
19:25 < QuantumG> no actually.. I'm working
19:25 < kanzure> jrayhawk graces us with his wisdom
19:25 < jrayhawk> oh, nevermind then
19:25 < kanzure> heh
19:26 < QuantumG> and I typically decline when someone suggests I wade through the literature for something to support their claims.. either than can quote and cite or they can't.
19:26 < pmetzger> The front page of the wmap site lists the results
19:26 < pmetzger> shall I cut and paste?
19:27 < pmetzger> from: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/
19:27 < pmetzger> WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to within 1% of "flat" Euclidean, improving on the precision of previous award-winning measurements by over an order of magnitude
19:27 < fenn> anyone know how to actually calculate the electron density of a molecule, and not just silly oversized spheres?
19:27 < pmetzger> that's #3
19:27 < pmetzger> fenn: what do you mean by "electron density of a molecule"?
19:27 < pmetzger> you mean the molecular orbitals?
19:27 < fenn> for example oxygen has free electron orbitals
19:28 < fenn> two of them
19:28 < QuantumG> pmetzger: I'm still not seeing how you can claim that means the universe is infinite..
19:28 < pmetzger> what does flat mean in geometry?
19:28 < jrayhawk> why are you arguing about this? it's clear that QuantumG isn't interested in clearly communicating his position, and you're not interested in getting him to clarify it, so you're not even really arguing about the same thing
19:28 < QuantumG> flat != infinite..
19:28 < pmetzger> you clearly don't know GR then.
19:28 < pmetzger> I suggest starting with the textbook "Gravitation"
19:28 < QuantumG> who said I did?
19:29 < pmetzger> You implied you did by claiming that flat doesn't mean infinite.
19:29 < pmetzger> if you don't know GR you have no basis for an opinion.
19:29 < QuantumG> what I asked you for was a respectable citation for the claim that the universe is infinite
19:29 < pmetzger> let me find the block function...
19:30 < pmetzger> ah, done.
19:30 < QuantumG> in fact, what I'd like you to do is provide a respectable citation for the claim that for any X, X exists, but hey.
19:30 < pmetzger> okay, now, fenn, what were you asking?
19:31 < pmetzger> you're talking about an O2 molecule?
19:31 < kanzure> fenn: ping
19:31 < pmetzger> so by "electron density" you mean the square of the wave function of the orbital?
19:31 < pmetzger> i.e. the probability density?
19:32 < pmetzger> the usual way you calculate that for anything non-trivial is with a quantum chem program, because it is too hard to do it directly. Solving the Schroedinger equation (or worse, the Dirac equation) for a real system larger than, say, helium, is way too hard, so you use computational approximations.
19:34 < genehacker> pmetzger have they figured out the cold spot yet?
19:34 < pmetzger> I don't know.
19:35 < pmetzger> I presume if they havent, Planck will give more data.
19:35 < genehacker> last I checked they haven't
19:35 < pmetzger> let me look at the seven year data anomalies paper...
19:36 < pmetzger> they do say this in the abstract of the seven year data anomalies paper:
19:36 < pmetzger> "We find that two cold spots on the map are normal CMB fluctuations. "
19:37 < pmetzger> that one is near the top of the bibliography, but for reference: http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/map/dr4/pub_papers/sevenyear/anomalies/wmap_7yr_anomalies.pdf
19:38 < pmetzger> yah, section 2 is all about the cold spot
19:38 < jrayhawk> QuantumG: You seem to have two otherwise innocuous habits relating to discourse 
19:38 < pmetzger> entitled:  COLD SPOT I, GALACTIC FOREGROUND EMISSION, AND THE FOUR FINGERS
19:38 < jrayhawk> that are actually a fairly big problem when combined.
19:38 < QuantumG> do tell
19:39 < pmetzger> FYI, I blocked QuantumG, so I'm not seeing anything he says any more. I don't like arguing with trolls, not my sport.
19:39 < jrayhawk> You firstly seem to have very little interest in modelling the thought processes of those around you as you talk with them, which is, on its own, fine and I know several extremely effective people who do the same.
19:40 < jrayhawk> You also speak without regard to control of relatively minor implications of the words and concepts you employ, which, again, is fine on its own and I know several extremely effective people who do the same.
19:40 < jrayhawk> The problem is that I don't know any effective people who do both of these things.
19:40 < jrayhawk> (effective in the context of discourse)
19:41 < pmetzger> genehacker: BTW, apparently there is a second cold spot, that's dealt with in section 3.
19:41 < QuantumG> well, I'm not going to disagree with you, as I'm sure that's your impression, but I wonder if you could give me some examples of when I've done this.
19:43 < pmetzger> So anyway, for those who were listening, GR left us with three possible large scale structures for the universe: a surface of positive curvature, which implies a finite structure (a sphere is an example of such a surface in lower dimensions -- if you're on the surface of a sphere you find no boundaries but the surface you are embedded in is finite)
19:44 < pmetzger> a flat geometry (like being embedded in a plane -- infinite, no boundaries)
19:44 < pmetzger> and negative curvature (like a saddle)
19:45 < pmetzger> everyone thought flat seemed very unlikely, since it implies very precisely tuned contents for the universe.
19:45 < jrayhawk> I have on about five occasions seen you accused of trolling when it's clear that the person you're talking with has taken something you've said in the wrong direction and, instead of taking measures to reign in the undesirable side effects of the concepts you employ, you treat your statements as self evident and the person you're talking to like they're an idiot for not understanding.
19:46 < pmetzger> however, the data say flat, and unless future data overturns it, we probably have to accept that the unlikeliest case -- that the universe on a large scale is flat, i.e. infinite, roughly euclidean geometry on large scales -- is the geometry we have.
19:46 < pmetzger> it is weird, but then again, so is a lot of modern physics, and one just learns to live with the weird.
19:48 < pmetzger> the "isotropic" part means that unless our hubble volume is displaying fiendishly unusual cosmic background radiation, the distribution of matter and energy elsewhere is much as it is here, thus, "isotropic", i.e. reasonably smooth distribution of matter and energy throughout, so elsewhere is like here.
19:48 < pmetzger> and that's kind of the backdrop for the tegmark paper I posted the arxiv link to.
19:49 < jrayhawk> In general, it takes someone with both good implication-control and external-epistemic-modeling skills to communicate with someone who has neither, so I think you're severely limiting the number of people you can effectively communicate with.
19:49 < QuantumG> jrayhawk: well, let's take pmetzger for example.. he's still giving us a lesson on why flat = infinite when all I asked for was a citation that says the standard model of cosmology (which says the universe isn't infinite) is wrong.  To him, flat=infinite so providing a citation that says the universe is flat is sufficient to saying that he has provided a citation that says it is infinite.  And yes, he's decided I'm a troll cause I dare ask him to pr
19:49 < QuantumG> ovide what I said, not what he thinks is a reasonable substitute.
19:50 < jrayhawk> That wasn't all you asked for, but you don't realize that because of your poor implication control.
19:50 < pmetzger> as an aside, the canonical textbook for GR these days is this: http://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Physics-Charles-W-Misner/dp/0716703440/ but it is very hard to approach without any background.
19:52 < jrayhawk> (And because pmetzger also lacks external-epistemic-modeling skills, which is why he still thinks what he's saying means something to you)
19:52 < pmetzger> Schutz is kind of an easier starting place: http://www.amazon.com/First-Course-General-Relativity/dp/0521887054/ but I won't call it "easy" either. To some extent, the book is an intro to tensor calculus because that's the language GR is written in...
19:52 < QuantumG> jrayhawk: I understand what you're saying
19:52 < QuantumG> thanks
19:53 < pmetzger> I don't know whether anything I'm saying means anything to QuantumG. I dropped talking to him.
19:55 < kanzure> pmetzger: yes we know you blocked him
19:56 < jrayhawk> hee
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21:09 < pmetzger> http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/the-anosognosics-dilemma-1/
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22:55 < Yocttar> http://buildyourcnc.com/PCBIsolationRouting.aspx <- nice to find out :D
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23:28 < bkero> Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
23:29 < splicer> ;) the chewbacca defence
23:29 < bkero> http://i.imgur.com/17Kkt.jpg
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