--- Day changed Wed Jun 23 2010
00:00 < jcluck> also I need to go to sleep...too much diy bio stuff today @_@
00:02 < fenn> wow a directory listing http://www.mapofscience.com/images
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00:56 < fenn> well i can't figure out who "dick from openmanufacturing" is
00:56 < fenn> apparently lives around bay area but went to MIT under hiroshi ishii
00:57 < fenn> ok i should do my homework first... dick whitney.. i wonder if he and his twin are actually twins or if they're married or something
00:58 < fenn> i'm getting too old for this shit :P
01:00 < fenn> http://www.brotherswhitney.com/ so they're brothers.. well that would make sense, but why didn't they say "yes" when i asked about being twins
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06:13 < kanzure> "why don't vagina have teeth?" http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=68
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06:28 < Selar> Yikes
06:29 < pmetzger> Evolution is not design. Not all good ideas an intelligent agency might have will be implemented by nature.
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06:37 < splicer> I balme religion for stupidity like the vagina tooth article.
06:38 < kanzure> heh
06:38 < kanzure> pmetzger: yes but the article was asking about the lack of an evolutionary pressure in that direction
06:38 < pmetzger> pressure is meaningless.
06:39 < pmetzger> If you are a human and your customers come to you and say "please sell me a widget in black in addition to white", you intelligently respond.
06:40 < pmetzger> In evolution, even if two new arms with hands on them would give you a massive boost, if you don't get that set of mutations appearing in the real world, no one will ever find out that it gives you a big boost.
06:40 < pmetzger> Evolution is not design.
06:40 < kanzure> pmetzger: i think you fail
06:40 < kanzure> i don't care that "evolution is not design", nobody is saying that it is
06:40 < pmetzger> not all things that would enhance an organism's survival will actually appear
06:40 < kanzure> that's true
06:40 < pmetzger> many obvious improvements exist to the human form, but we don't have them.
06:40 < kanzure> but there are other reasons- if you read the comments- besides the fact that it was chance
06:40 < pmetzger> some of them are tiny.
06:41 < pmetzger> tiny changes.
06:41 < pmetzger> why don't we make our own vitamin C when we have almost all the right genes for it. most animals do.
06:41 < kanzure> are we talking about something different now?
06:41 < pmetzger> "because we don't" is the answer. it would help us survive, but we have a broken gene, and nature doesn't know to fix it.
06:41 < kanzure> "know"?
06:41 < kanzure> what the fuck man
06:41 < pmetzger> nature has no mind.
06:42 < pmetzger> it can't think.
06:42 < kanzure> then why the hell are you talking about knowing and not knowing?
06:42 < kanzure> i'm sorry, but i think you're trolling ;)
06:42 < pmetzger> no I'm not.
06:42 < pmetzger> I'm pointing out the difference between evolution and engineering.
06:42 < Utopiah> there is no nature (see also ##philosophy )
06:42 < pmetzger> Scott can point out an obvious improvement...
06:42 < kanzure> pmetzger: so?
06:42 < pmetzger> ...but that doesn't mean evolution will hit on it.
06:42 < kanzure> we weren't talking about that..
06:42 < pmetzger> He's looking for reasons the improvement would not be an improvement as the answer.
06:43 < kanzure> not true
06:43 < pmetzger> but the more obvious answer is simply that nature never got to that part of the form space.
06:43 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone. Time for grocery shopping.
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06:43 < kanzure> i don't want to argue about this, but your interpretation of the author's intentions seems to be what's wrong imho
06:44 < pmetzger> I think I read the same blog post...
06:44 < kanzure> and you honestly believe: < pmetzger> He's looking for reasons the improvement would not be an improvement as the answer.
06:44 < pmetzger> well, yes.
06:44 < pmetzger> observe answer 1
06:45 < pmetzger> and answer 2
06:45  * kanzure observes
06:45 < pmetzger> and answer 3
06:45 < pmetzger> (he labels them hypotheses)
06:45 < pmetzger> and answer 4
06:45 < pmetzger> and answer 5
06:45 < pmetzger> these are all variations on "why this would not actually improve the survival of the genetic line"
06:46 < pmetzger> all five answers he proposes, in fact.
06:46 < pmetzger> my simpler answer is perhaps nature just never tried it (using excess anthropomorphization of nature as a shorthand here)
06:46 < kanzure> and you hold it impossible that if there was some mutation, or string of mutations, that led to a situation like he describes, that his thought experiment becomes .. what? mush?
06:46 < kanzure> ok, so you're just proposing a simpler answer for him
06:47 < pmetzger> yes.
06:47 < pmetzger> the answer may simply be that it might indeed have a positive impact but that this part of the form space has never been explored by mutation + selection.
06:47 < kanzure> honestly it sounded like you were criticising me for bringing up the link. i thought the thought experiment was mildly amusing.
06:47 < pmetzger> no, I was not criticizing you.
06:48 < pmetzger> and I think Scott is brilliant.
06:48 < pmetzger> I love his blog.
06:48 < pmetzger> I just think he wasn't looking at the most obvious possible answer.
06:49 < kanzure> and that's what made you go into a spiell about basic evolution?
06:49 < splicer> the obvious answer is that rape is an evolutionery feature
06:49 < pmetzger> it is of course an evolutionary feature, but who's genes benefit?
06:49 < splicer> the strongest males
06:49 < pmetzger> presumably the fact that women resist rape would indicate theirs do not.
06:49 < pmetzger> so we would presume they would develop strategies to avoid it.
06:50 < pmetzger> kanzure: that's what made me go into the spiel, yes, to justify my answer.
06:50 < splicer> to breed weaker males?
06:51 < pmetzger> no, to allow better selection of males.
06:53 < splicer> males who are more in touch with their feminine side?
06:54 < splicer> Dawkins said it well when he said nature is tooth and claw
06:55 < pmetzger> I think you might want to read more on sexual selection.
06:56 < pmetzger> Females have an incentive not to mate with just any male, but rather with ones they have carefully selected.
06:56 < pmetzger> Rape is an attempt by males to get around that.
06:56 < pmetzger> but the females have no incentive to go along with it.
06:56 < pmetzger> I can recommend good books on this if you wish.
06:56 < pmetzger> And I think Dawkins would fully agree with me.
06:56 < splicer> dawkins? why do you think that?
06:57 < pmetzger> Because I've read his writing on this very subject.
06:57 < pmetzger> I didn't invent these ideas.
06:57 < splicer> I know that
06:57 < splicer> I think it's common to see people try to inject contemorary morals into evolution and fail. Because they haven't really grasped what it actually is.
06:57 < pmetzger> there is no question of morals here.
06:57 < pmetzger> it is all a question of incentives.
06:57 < pmetzger> selection pressure, etc.
06:58 < pmetzger> Females resist attempts by unwanted males to mate with them. If the evolutionary pressure went the other way, they wouldn't do that.
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06:58 < pmetzger> In any case, I have to go eat, so I'll have to end this for now.
06:58 < splicer> Why not?
06:59 < splicer> If they woldn't resist anyone could mate with them
06:59 < splicer> long story
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07:55 < kanzure> http://blog.pharmtech.com/2010/06/23/a-fda-nih-road-to-personalized-medicine/
07:55 < kanzure> "Proventsys injects $3.25M for personalized medicine services" http://www.techjournalsouth.com/2010/06/proventsys-injects-3-25m-for-personalized-medicine-services/
07:56 < kanzure> Personalized medicine can impact justice system http://www.healthimaging.com/index.php?option=com_articles&view=article&id=22851:personalized-medicine-can-impact-justice-system
07:56 < kanzure> Pebbles Along the 'Path' to Personalized Medicine http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pebbles-along-the-path-to-personalized-medicine-96893604.html
07:57 < kanzure> http://scienceroll.com/2010/06/22/personalized-genetics-fda-dtc-and-gina/
07:58 < kanzure> looks like 'Matrix Genomics' is trying to be a 23andme/decodeme/navigenics competitor
07:58 < kanzure> http://journals.lww.com/ijgc/Abstract/publishahead/Moving_Toward_Personalized_Medicine_.99856.aspx
08:03 < pmetzger> Injecting things into personalized medicine. I bet the reporter took at least seconds to come up with that headline. :)
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08:27 < kanzure> so, i'm writing step.py for my step export utility
08:27 < kanzure> and the way i'm doing this is i have lots of little tiny classes that inherit from parent entities
08:27 < kanzure> with two primary variables in each class: (1) step_keyword, which gives the all caps name that ISO 10303 calls for (like VECTOR_LOOP)
08:28 < kanzure> and (2) parameters, a dictionary of the different parameters that this entity accepts
08:28 < kanzure> in the case of #2, it sometimes looks like this:
08:28 < kanzure> parameters = {"status": str, "application_interpreted_model_schema_name": str, "application_protocol_year": int, "application_context": ApplicationContext}
08:28 < kanzure> where the key name is the name of the parameter (which is later added to the instance of the entity as an attribute)
08:29 < kanzure> and where the value of the key in the 'parameters' dictionary is the expected type (string, integer, ApplicationContext, some other StepEntity, ...)
08:29 < kanzure> what's tricky about this is that sometimes one of the values for the key is a "list"
08:30 < kanzure> and in ISO 10303, sometimes a list must be a certain length and sometimes all of its members must be of a certain type
08:31 < kanzure> not only that, but when a list has a length of one, it's apparently valid to no longer treat it like a list and instead just pass the StepEntity directly
08:32 < kanzure> where i'm getting hung up on is how to specify-- in a systematic, pythonic way-- what types are allowed in the list (which is, uh, fundamentally unpythonic)
08:32 < kanzure> here's one case in class ApplicationContextElement: parameters = {"name": str, "frame_of_reference": list}
08:32 < kanzure> and frame_of_reference is defined in AP214 as: frame_of_reference : SET[1:?] OF application_context;
08:33 < kanzure> my first inclination is to do something like parameters={"frame_of_reference": ApplicationContextList} and make up a new type that is a list of only ApplicationContext types :/
08:33 < kanzure> but that's terribly unpythonic
08:40 < pmetzger> are you parsing or generating here?
08:40 < pmetzger> generating, right?
08:40 < kanzure> at the moment i'm using this to spit out STEP
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08:42 < kanzure> maybe i'll do a "type" generator: "frame_of_reference": ListBuilder(ApplicationContext, max_length=5) .. but that's also pretty evil
08:42 < pmetzger> and what are you converting into STEP? an internal data structure presumably, yes?
08:42 < kanzure> yes
08:43 < pmetzger> So I'd structure it as a method for every part of the data structure that stringifies itself into STEP
08:43 < pmetzger> and you send the whole data structure that method
08:43  * kanzure nods
08:43 < pmetzger> and it sends that method to its subparts and puts them together and returns it.
08:43 < kanzure> absolutely
08:43 < kanzure> so, to save time, what i'm doing is a bit more systematic
08:43 < kanzure> lemme show
08:43 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/step_importer.py
08:44 < kanzure> check out, say, class BrepWithVoids
08:44 < kanzure> i'm defining all of these with primarily two variables so that i can just use inheritance
08:44 < kanzure> and have a funky function in the parent class that looks at the "parameters" variable
08:44 < kanzure> this way, i don't have to rewrite a thousand methods a thousand times for all of the STEP entities that i care about
08:44 < pmetzger> I guess the problem is that I know nothing about the data structure you are marshalling into STEP.
08:45 < kanzure> for now i am just directly creating objects by calling constructors of these python elements that you see in that file
08:47 < kanzure> updated: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/step.py in particular look at the unit test at the very bottom of the file to see what i'm doing to test it
08:47 < kanzure> ultimately the goal is to write a cleaner API around all this so that end users don't have to do that craziness
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08:58 < pmetzger> I thought the ultimate goal was SKDB. :)
08:58 < pmetzger> (the ultimate ultimate goal as it were.)
08:58 < kanzure> semantics
08:58 < kanzure> i used to be in this cult about "the ultimate goal", don't get me started ;)
09:00 < pmetzger> The ultimate ultimate ultimate goal! :)
09:00 < pmetzger> My highest level goal is to fetch myself a glass of water. Once I have molecular nanotechnology, I'll be able to do that finally! :)
09:00 < pmetzger> :) :) :)
09:00 < kanzure> we were using a modified pascal wager about the existence of an ultimate goal or set of ultimate goals or not
09:01 < kanzure> somehow we were gearing up to move to the atacama desert :P
09:01 < kanzure> ah to be young
09:02 < kanzure> any ideas on the python dilemma? #python didn't know
09:03 < kanzure> i guess for now i'll leave it as a generic list :'(
09:09 < pmetzger> My usual policy is to do several cuts of anything. I don't really know what the correct API will be until I've used the API a bunch.
09:10 < kanzure> sure. that's not the problem at the moment
09:10 < pmetzger> So the most important thing is to write enough tests that refactoring constantly is easy.
09:10 < kanzure> i think i'll go with embedded dictionaries
09:10 < pmetzger> the first cut, I always do The Dumbest Thing That Will Work.
09:10 < kanzure> parametesr = {"blah": int, "guh": str, "the_list_thing": {"types": [list of acceptable types], "max_length": 3}}
09:10 < kanzure> *parameters
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09:15 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
09:15 < kanzure> hi
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09:51 < kanzure> fenn: have you been hanging out at singularityu.org / AMES at all?
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09:59 < pmetzger> Shih et al have made tensegrity structures from DNA origami. http://bit.ly/aW7Pjx
10:04 < kanzure> :)
10:06 < fenn> kanzure  no, should i? am i even allowed to go there?
10:06 < kanzure> who cares? just show up
10:06 < kanzure> joseph does it
10:07 < kanzure> i think you should check it out at least once
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10:37 < kanzure> guido sez: "diy nuclear fusion at the bbc" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10385853.stm
10:37 < kanzure> not sure if this is the fusor or not
10:37 < kanzure> it looks like it..
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10:38 < pmetzger> the farnsworth fusor, If only one could get rid of the pesky grid :)
10:39 < kanzure> a blog post on diybio-boston's meetup from the other day: http://www.flavourcountryfeedlot.com/2010/06/yogurt-is-happy-culture.html
10:40 < fenn> gah
10:40 < kanzure> fenn: ?
10:40 < fenn> so i'm like "is mark suppes prometheusfusionperfection.com?" and i go there and there's quinn norton
10:40 < kanzure> heh
10:41 < kanzure> why do i know that name?
10:41 < kanzure> (quinn norton)
10:42 < fenn> dunno, she hangs out at noisebridge, shows up on random blogs...
10:42 < pmetzger> BTW, fenn, I'm sure you're sick of this by now, but I've thought of another way that most chemical visualizations are "wrong". They don't depict the fact that real molecules have internal rotational freedom of various sorts, and vibrate...
10:42 < fenn> pmetzger: i agree
10:42 < pmetzger> which is really insanely crucial to understand if you're a novice, and which the experts pretty much ignore because it is so much part of their mindset.
10:43 < fenn> any ideas what this is? 
10:43 < fenn> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_eZmKGTaqgB0/S-c6vBOeHKI/AAAAAAAAAKs/oCWy5Ba-WxM/s400/IMG_8898.JPG
10:44 < kanzure> lamp?
10:44 < kanzure> (look at the top of the neck)
10:44 < pmetzger> It looks vaguely phallic and shiny, but I have no useful guesses.
10:45 < fenn> seems to be a cnc machined sculpture 
10:46 < fenn> i guess the tip that i thought was some sort of vacuum fitting is just where the tailstock supported the piece while being machined
10:46 < pmetzger> The world needs a self-reproducing 5-axis CNC design.
10:47 < pmetzger> just add aircraft aluminum and electronics or something.
10:47 < kanzure> yeah! and on a stewart platform!
10:47 < pmetzger> stewart platforms are cool. Merkle had a design for a molecular stewart platform a while back.
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10:47 < fenn> that's how i got into all this reprap stuff.. self replicating stewart platform cnc mills
10:47 < pmetzger> I really need to teach myself more mech e tricks.
10:47 < kanzure> pmetzger: i'm making a joke. i thought you knew about fenn's work
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10:47 < pmetzger> fenn: really? that's very cool.
10:47 < pmetzger> no, I didn't.
10:48 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/machines/hextatic
10:48 < pmetzger> can it mill its own support tubes or is that beyond the current scope?
10:49 < pmetzger> ah, I see, the initial version is stock parts
10:49 < fenn> that was always beyond the scope
10:49 < pmetzger> forever?
10:50 < fenn> er. anyway, it wouldn't mill any tubing, but it would have a headstock attachment that would allow it to do lathe stuff like cutting threads and bearing mount surfaces into leadscrews
10:51 < fenn> i didnt really think about how to make tubing from scratch, it just seemed to be a never ending chain of dependencies at the time
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10:51 < pmetzger> The only reason I mention "self reproducing" is that reprap is kind of limited by the use of plastic when it needs metal parts...
10:51 < pmetzger> you've seen that insane 5 axis machine video where it mills a motorcycle helmet from an aluminum block?
10:52 < kanzure> reprap is not self-reproducing
10:52 < fenn> yeah yeah. *twirls finger*
10:52 < pmetzger> making tubing from scratch isn't needed, but being able to take raw tubing and cut it appropriately for a second machine would be very good.
10:52 < fenn> throw a million dollars at a problem and you can make a dirtbike helmet
10:52 < pmetzger> or anything else made of metal. :)
10:52 < pmetzger> well, machinable metal.
10:52 < kanzure> pmetzger: re: that video, have you seen my "machine porn" playlist? http://www.youtube.com/user/kanzure#grid/user/0EB93E6E02E5CF17
10:52 < kanzure> (it's the first video on the playlist)
10:53 < pmetzger> that's the very video I was mentioning! very cool!
10:53 < kanzure> anyway, fenn and i first met each other because we wanted to build a self-replicating machine
10:53 < kanzure> sort of
10:54 < fenn> bootstrapping
10:54 < kanzure> we actually first met because we were arguing about aliens in #physics back in 2006, but then we ran into each other a few years later
10:54 < kanzure> or, i was arguing (fenn wasn't)
10:55 < kanzure> well, yes, bootstrapping
10:55 < pmetzger> I wrote a horrible paper for a policy class on the topic of generalized manufacturing recently.
10:55 < kanzure> pmetzger: you should read this: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/e4c375acce772250
10:55 < kanzure> i promise it's interesting :)
10:58  * fenn mutters something about akashic records
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12:38 < kanzure> pfft
12:38 < kanzure> andrew's hanging out with sergey today
12:38 < kanzure> sergey brin
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12:51 < fenn> i saw andrew at qs last night but i'm not sure if he recognized me
12:52 < pmetzger> whois andrew?
12:52 < pmetzger> <--- newly reentering transhumanist circles
12:52 < fenn> andrew hessel, self promoter/cancer co-op founder
12:52 < AJollyLife> i wish lived someplace where i could go to QS meetings
12:52 < fenn> see pinkarmy.org for the spiel
12:52 < AJollyLife> lol at cancer founder ;)
12:53 < fenn> AJollyLife: where do you live?
12:53 < AJollyLife> east coast of florida
12:53 < AJollyLife> close to cape canaveral. i have a beach, and nothing to do
12:53 < fenn> hum, well, you could always do what i did
12:54 < AJollyLife> whats that?
12:54 < fenn> go bum around california for a while and see how awesome it is
12:54 < AJollyLife> yeah, my job is amazing though
12:54 < pmetzger> what is your job?
12:55 < AJollyLife> hacking stuff. i'll tell you more later if youw ant, gotta run to a demo
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13:12 < kanzure> http://openwetware.org/wiki/Andrew_Hessel
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14:37 < kanzure> https://www.23andme.com/policyforum/
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15:17 < kanzure> fenn: know any way to get a list of classes that an instance is an instance of? er..
15:17 < kanzure> if i have an object 'foo' of type Foo, how do i figure out what Foo inherits from
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16:42 < JayDugger> Canfield joint video:
16:42 < JayDugger> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVdwIiGUTMc&NR=1
16:42 < JayDugger> Long description of canfield joint:
16:42 < JayDugger> http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/cjoint1/
16:44 < JayDugger> This reminds me of a stewart platform. 
16:45 < JayDugger> No link--I never uploaded the video I shot of one in action. :)
16:45 < JayDugger> Does there exist a taxonomy that classifies and groups various mechanical joints and linkages?
16:46 < JayDugger> Seems such a thing would exist, but I have zero formal education on that subject.
16:55 < pmetzger> I've often wondered if there are better introductions to all these mechanical tricks than the mass of 19th century books I've seen...
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17:03 < JayDugger> Yeah...scanning such book helps, but it makes only a small first step.
17:03 < JayDugger> If I knew what sort of joint I wanted, I might well not need to look up the design.
17:03 < pmetzger> At one time assumed there were mechanical engineering texts on this stuff but I haven't found any. Perhaps my not knowing what to look for.
17:04 < JayDugger> It seems to me such would exist, but I don't know how that'd get organized. Number of linkages? Axes of rotation? Range of rotation? Invention date?
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17:31 < fenn> help(baz)
17:31 < fenn> class Baz(Bar) |  Method resolution order: |      Baz |      Bar |      Foo
17:31 < fenn> i dont know how to do it programmatically, presumably something where you traverse the tree of supers
17:32 < fenn> hm, no super isn't what you want either
17:51 < kanzure> i guess super.get_info_about_my_super (where i implement get_info_about_my_super all over the plae)
17:52 < kanzure> *place
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18:14 < kanzure> so, singularityu.org wants to fly me out for 2 weeks
18:14 < kanzure> at least
18:14 < AJollyLife> sweet, congrats
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18:17 < QuantumG> kanzure: have you already had the curves indoctrination?
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18:27 < fenn> kanzure to answer your earlier question about bases.. as long as there's no super weird stuff going on this should work
18:27 < fenn> def snuper(cls):
18:27 < fenn>   if cls.__bases__==(): return [cls]
18:28 < fenn>   clse: return[(base, snuper(base)) for base in cls.__bases__]
18:28 < fenn> s/clse/else/
18:30 < fenn> btw i love the random ascii art in this http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.3/mro/
18:40 < kanzure> heh that's totally the sign of someone up at 3am writing python documentation
18:40 < kanzure> "well, guess i better add some ascii art, or else"
18:42 < kanzure> QuantumG: curves indoctrination? haven't heard of that
18:42 < kanzure> do you mean kurzweil stuff?
18:42 < QuantumG> ya
18:42 < kanzure> uh, well i've been reading kurzweil stuff since forever if that counts
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18:45 < QuantumG> as I understand it, Kurzweil has some proprietary data on technology trends.. and SU is big on pushing it
19:02 < kanzure> nice fancy use of ASICs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_%28computer%29
19:07 < jrayhawk> Have you heard about Ambric?
19:09 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: danx0r, kardan, ToyKeeper, Ian_Daniher
19:09 < jrayhawk> "The Am2045 device has 336 32-bit RISC-DSP fixed-point processors and 336 2-kB memories, which run at up to 300 MHz" in a three dimensional array in *stackable* brick form
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19:13 < jrayhawk> It is a delightfully nutty architecture.
19:14 < jrayhawk> Jules started work on a compiler for it, so he knows a lot more about it than most if you happen to be interested in knowing more.
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19:26 < kanzure> huh
19:26 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what were people using ambric for?
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20:13 < kive> catching up... kanzure: reprap, even mendel, is still immature. self-reproduction is a goal, but of course it isn't there yet. once exchangeable heads and pcb work is achieved, it'll pretty much be there.
20:14 < kive> right now, though, toolchains are still being developed... plastic extrusion, cnc, laser cutting, etc... and by different groups
20:15 < kive> once each has more maturity and something like a best of breed project in place, self-replication is childs play, imo
20:20 < kanzure> pfft why is jata on the multimachine mailing list
20:20 < kanzure> kive: self-reproduction doesn't really seem to be a goal, given their development strategy
20:21 < kanzure> specifically i refer to reprap.org
20:21 < kanzure> fuck man, they were in the ny times claiming they had achieved self-replication
20:21 < kanzure> taking credit for what will undoubtedly be a community effort that hasn't even happened yet
20:24 < QuantumG> anyone found anything useful to do with a reprap yet?  other than printing out plastic pegs
20:26 < kanzure> QuantumG: you mean other than printing out plastic pegs, and getting into the news? :)
20:27 < QuantumG> oh true..
20:27 < kive> kanzure: obviously, reprap, nor anything else in use today, is what you or i would consider self-replicating.
20:27 < kive> but pcb printing was a stated 2.0 (mendel) goal, albeit failed.
20:27 < kanzure> kive: so, the idea that we developed in here was something a bit different
20:27 < kanzure> instead of randomly hacking together stuff on to a plastic rapid prototyping machine,
20:28 < kanzure> the concept was that we could identify manufacturing processes and which inputs they required
20:28 < QuantumG> some people take a "can I use it to build another one?" approach to self-replication.. whereas I tend to take a "can it replicate itself?" approach to self-replication
20:28 < kanzure> if on average you find a set of parts and manufacturing processes that require <1 new process each time you add it into the bucket, you got yourself a self-replicating system with "closure"
20:30 < kanzure> so that's kinda why the idea of 'skdb' was put forward.. as a way to organize that, but also so that we could, uh, bootstrap hardware development
20:31 < kive> kanzure: give me a practical example, if you don't mind. your terminology was too vague for me to really understand.
20:31 < kanzure> which terminology in particular
20:31 < kive> also, caveat, i'm a newb in this channel.
20:31 < kive> the process part
20:31 < kanzure> do you know what a 'manufacturing process' is?
20:32 < kive> yup
20:32 < kanzure> "In manufacturing, a unit process is a single component part of the end-to-end manufacturing process that transforms raw materials into finished goods."
20:32 < kive> what i learned in business school, anyways
20:32 < kanzure> okay then i'm having trouble understanding what you don't get :P
20:33 < kive> it's all good... i'll quote the relevant piece and explain my confusion when i'm not typing on my phone. 
20:33 < kanzure> okay
20:37 < kanzure> superkuh: as i recall, you once had an interest in lipid bilayers and membranes; has anyone ever successfully booted up a colony of something with an artificial (not-given-by-a-parent) membrane?
20:38 < superkuh> I don't know. It is an interesting question and I will see if I can answer it in the days ahead.
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20:39 < cluckj> membranes are tricky
20:39 < kanzure> yes
20:39 < cluckj> there's a whole lot more there than just lipids :)
20:39 < jrayhawk> Re: Ambric: The limited memory and very expensive synchronization makes it difficult to find applications for; massive video and audio transcoding operations seem to be where their current marketing budget is going.
20:39 < kanzure> right, but there have been people who thought otherwise
20:39 < kanzure> i saw some "artificial cell" stuff a long, long time ago 
20:39 < cluckj> hehe
20:39 < kanzure> someone was trying to use an emulsion for cells
20:39 < cluckj> it's like DNA
20:39 < cluckj> there's a lot more going on than just base pairs
20:40 < jrayhawk> I think Jules wanted to run Linpack on it so he could have something the size of a large briefcase that would beat most of the world's top supercomputers.
20:40 < kanzure> jrayhawk: everything should be ASIC <3
20:40 < jrayhawk> True dat.
20:49 < kanzure> cool hulu has robotech. maybe there's now a snowball's chance in hell that they will get some good anime.
20:49 < kanzure> http://www.hulu.com/watch/37498/starship-troopers
20:50 < kanzure> http://www.hulu.com/watch/81982/robotech-the-shadow-chronicles
20:50 < kanzure> http://www.hulu.com/watch/154360/star-trek-viii-first-contact
20:52 < bkero> First Contact is Star Trek VIII?
20:52 < kanzure> http://www.hulu.com/watch/128305/star-trek-vii-generations
20:52 < kanzure> yes because vii was generations
20:52 < Alystair> I wonder when Hulu will cross the border
20:53 < kanzure> never
20:53 < QuantumG> vii = viii = shit
20:53 < bkero> Never, hulu is a tool of ABC
20:54 < kanzure> i thought it was NBC
20:54 < bkero> My point stills tands.
20:54 < kanzure> indeed
20:54 < Alystair> hrm proxy
20:54 < bkero> 32% NBC, 32% Fox, 27% ABC
20:54 < bkero> So not a chance in hell
20:54 < kanzure> bkero: oh?
20:54 < kanzure> didn't know the percentages
20:54 < QuantumG> I have a vpn to the US that I occasionally use 
20:55 < QuantumG> and expect to use more if the Australian net filter goes ahead.. which it probably never will.
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20:56 < QuantumG> come to think of it.. I also have a vpn to the US that I use every day, but wouldn't use for surfing the web or watching hulu :)
20:56 < kanzure> QuantumG: i forget, which part of australia are you in? victoria?
20:56 < QuantumG> queensland
20:56 < kanzure> heh
20:57 < kanzure> wut? [9:28:55 PM] Roo Bishop: you better get me mr. Google's autograph!!
20:57 < kanzure> [9:30:13 PM] Roo Bishop: please:)
20:57 < kanzure> [9:30:27 PM] Roo Bishop: i luv u 4ever & ever!!!!
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21:23 < jrayhawk> haha
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21:25 < fenn> "everything should be ASIC": no
21:25 < fenn> terrible idea
21:25 < fenn> don't you love linux? the generality of linux is impossible on an asic
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21:26 < kanzure> ok ok, "most" everything
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21:26 < kanzure> jpeg isn't going away
21:26 < kanzure> neither is mpeg
21:26 < jrayhawk> well, all you need is for fab cost and latency to get low enough...
21:28 < kanzure> josh lubell at nist.gov got back with me about scl
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21:28 < kanzure> he was happy to hear about brlcad.org using it :)
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21:46 < jrayhawk> Specifically, you should not think of it as "Linux" but "a highly interoperable open source ecosystem of programs you would want to run"
21:46 < jrayhawk> And you should not think of ASICs as processors, but as programs written directly to hardware.
21:47 < Utopiah> Linux is the kernel
21:47 < jrayhawk> fine, "a highly interoperable open source ecosystem supporting the programs you would want to run"
21:49 < jrayhawk> Though the distinction blurs somewhat as Linux diverges more and more from Unix and as it becomes more microkernel-like
21:50 < Utopiah> I don't even think it's fair to compare Linux to UNIX :/
21:50 < jrayhawk> Define "fair"
21:51 < Utopiah> UNIX aimed at being an entire OS (actually a set of OS specs iirc) while Linux is "just" the kernel (initially MINIX which then aimed at being a fully featured mini learning OS)
21:52 < jrayhawk> The kernel defines vast swaths of userspace that replace or complement POSIX.
21:54 < jrayhawk> KMS/X, ALSA/libasound, netfilter/iproute2, etc.
21:55 < jrayhawk> To claim that Linux is "merely" a kernel at this point is either twisted pedantry or ignorance.
21:55 < Utopiah> to me http://www.kernel.org/ is Linux, Debian isn't Linux
21:56 < Utopiah> it's one distribution amongst many other which can but is not restricted to the Linux kernel
21:56 < Utopiah> if you tell me you work on Linux Ill tihnk you submit patches to kernel.org code base
21:56 < QuantumG> are you guys really having the "Linux isn't Linux" argument?
21:57 < Utopiah> QuantumG: don't worry, I have a special argument up my sleeves
21:57 < Utopiah> tada! https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Gnu-and-penguin-color.png
21:57 < jrayhawk> kernel.org actually hosts a debian mirror :P
21:58 < jrayhawk> You are aware the GNU portion is and has been skirting the edge of relevance for decades, right?
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21:58 < Utopiah> yep, I dont think it's fair to call it that way either
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22:00 < Utopiah> and to go back to hardware dedicated code, I dont think everything should be ASIC, especially since you can code from higher level of abstraction like executeUML to OpenMP, OpenCL, Opcode, Microcode, FPGA, VLSI, etc... so you can really match your needs to what is available
22:01 < jrayhawk> It all hits silicon sooner or later, may as well optimize the silicon.
22:01 < Utopiah> what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_computing (with its few days ago http://arn.local.frs.riken.jp/UC10/ )
22:04 < jrayhawk> Okay, I guess that's probably less ephemeral than rapid-fab ASIC while having similar potential.
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22:06 < jrayhawk> Unless we can mangle those fit the definition of "ASIC" in the manner of twisted pedantry!
22:06 < jrayhawk> And I'm just the twisted pedant to try!
22:06 < Utopiah> :)
22:06 < Utopiah> I dont think Linux vs. GNU/Linux is pedantry when you talk about hardware level, if you chat with newcomers that want to "install Linux" then yes, it's rather missing the point
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22:12 < kanzure> john schloendorn has a birthday tomorrow
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22:15 < jrayhawk> The distinction that phrase is trying to make is not pedantry, either, but it's mostly a misnomer at this point.
22:17 < jrayhawk> Just as it's always been a misnomer.
22:18 < jrayhawk> Meanwhile the kernel developers themselves don't realy seem to care much when it comes to talking about "the Linux ecosystem", which is a less cumbersome and inaccurate phrase.
22:19 < Utopiah> btw on that topic but with maybe a more extremist twist than the naming distinction http://www.fsfla.org/svnwiki/selibre/linux-libre/
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22:27 < kanzure> http://web.mit.edu/2.810/www/lecture/Machining.pdf
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22:36 < jrayhawk> I guess "the POSIX ecosystem" is the most accurate phrase.
22:36 < jrayhawk> Obscure, though.
22:36 < jrayhawk> Or, specifically, "the open source POSIX ecosystem" in this case.
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23:48 < bkero> lolposix
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