--- Log opened Sat Jul 17 04:16:17 2010
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04:21 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2009/ http://heybryan.org/
04:21 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Mon Jan 11 11:14:52 2010]
04:21 [Users #hplusroadmap]
04:21 [ AJollyLife] [ fenn       ] [ kardan      ] [ nimak   ] [ superkuh ] 
04:21 [ augur     ] [ ghchinoy   ] [ kive        ] [ Noahj   ] [ ToyKeeper] 
04:21 [ bkero     ] [ gnusha     ] [ klafka      ] [ nsh     ] [ Utopiah  ] 
04:21 [ CIA-46    ] [ guibou     ] [ kristianpaul] [ nsh_    ] [ ybit     ] 
04:21 [ clemux    ] [ Ian_Daniher] [ kyb3R       ] [ Overand ] [ ybit2    ] 
04:21 [ drazak    ] [ JayDugger  ] [ mage2       ] [ Phreedom] 
04:21 [ egeste    ] [ Joeconyers ] [ memenode    ] [ QuantumG] 
04:21 [ elmom     ] [ jrayhawk   ] [ nchaimov    ] [ shepazu ] 
04:21 [ ENKI-][   ] [ kanzure    ] [ niftyzero   ] [ splicer ] 
04:21 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 41 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 41 normal]
04:21 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Fri Jan 29 23:48:24 2010
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05:30 < fenn> ybit2: because i ran out of space on the free version, and wanted my stuff to show up in peoples' searches on flickr
05:34 < fenn> i don't think we should be conflating open hardware with "stealing" mp3's
05:38 < fenn> had i known the reprap v1 extruder didn't actually work, i would have bought materials and stuff for a later version extruder that actually did work, and used it in the time frame when i had regular-ish access to a lathe
05:39 < fenn> sorry i dont have a real and yet soundbiteable situation
05:40 < fenn> catchy, accurate, easy to think of: pick two
05:44 < fenn> kanzure that freebase query yields a rather interesting list
05:46 < fenn> ybit2: i'm probably going to be buying some 1TB hard drives, how long do you need to store it and what's the expected time frame?
05:48 < fenn> aaactually, i'll probably be buying some 500GB drives, because i dont really need 1TB
05:50 < fenn> WD scorpio blue 500GB $54 new, and has good power consumption specs
05:51 < fenn> this for my wearable eventually, good to have little hard drives around though
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07:28 < kanzure> "I am sorry to spoil the party, but I have some serious doubts about your project. You also developed the Open Gel box which sells for: 50? No! 100? No! but 500 $"
07:29 < kanzure> "This- taken together with your detailed "business-plan" aka "The money will go towards R&D, third party testing, and optimization." Simply my impression is, that you are trying to make money off OpenSource without really knowing what your doing. Why 6000$? Why does third party testing cost money (your friend in the lab just giving it a try)? What exactly is "R&D"? "
07:29 < kanzure> that was from http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/930368578/openpcr-open-source-biotech-on-your-desktop/comments
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07:31 < kanzure> fenn: cathal replied to you here http://openpcr.org/build-yours/
07:32 < kanzure> "maybe you're used to software, which is free to develop" baaah
07:32 < kanzure> i want to hit him over the head
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08:12 < kyb3R> I was not aware of the costs of hw development until I started one :)
08:12 < kyb3R> and we dont even need to do third party testing, just to build a prototype which anyone could follow
08:13 < kyb3R> by reading the blueprints
08:14 < kyb3R> which is a mobile gadget
08:14 < kanzure> kyb3R: my point is that software development is not free-of-cost
08:14 < kanzure> in most cases the individual developer subsidizes his dev-time
08:15 < kyb3R> true
08:15 < kanzure> if anything, drawing some parameterized lines in a cad program is easier (unless it's some art work and you don't know what the end state is looking like)
08:15 < kyb3R> but i was referrring to the cost of parts, circuits etc. 
08:16 < kyb3R> which ppl normally fuck up often, at least we have burned some circuits
08:16 < kyb3R> before that project I had just written programs
08:17 < kanzure> are you trying to support cathal's point that software development doesn't cost a thing?
08:17 < kyb3R> no
08:17 < kanzure> then you're stating facts about the cost of hardware development?
08:17 < kyb3R> i'm not taking anyones side
08:18 < kyb3R> yeah, which was new to me, actually the costs were not but the scale
08:18 < kanzure> btw what was the context of your mobile gadget thingy?
08:18 < kyb3R> real time surveillance/tracking
08:18 < kanzure> that doesn't sound normal :P
08:18 < kanzure> military thing?
08:19 < kanzure> woops i assumed you said 'phone' somewhere
08:19 < kyb3R> we build a device that can be followed on the web page, real time, and no it's for fun
08:19 < kyb3R> all open source
08:20 < kyb3R> including the server codr
08:20 < kyb3R> code
08:20 < kyb3R> nothing really revolution about it
08:20 < kyb3R> just to leran
08:20 < kyb3R> damn...
08:20 < kyb3R> just to learn
08:21 < kyb3R> actually the projects started because I wantedto follow on the map, where my cat is when he is outside sometimes for several days 
08:22 < kyb3R> so the device needs to be small and lightweight, must be attached to cat somehow
08:22 < kyb3R> long battery life = low power consumption
08:23 < kyb3R> and so on
08:23 < kanzure> did you get a chance to figure out where your cat goes?
08:24 < Utopiah>  software development is definitly not free-of-cost...
08:24 < kyb3R> no, not yet. We havent build/finished the gadget yet, it's an ongoing project
08:24 < kyb3R> we have just done some minor development
08:24 < kyb3R> and testing
08:26 < kyb3R> something about the project is here: http://wiki.github.com/kyber/catss/ ->development notes
08:39 < kanzure> does anyone know a sufficiently public way to address cathal's point and his misunderstanding ("software development is free")?
08:40 < Utopiah> http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/06/microsoft_tops.html
08:56 < kanzure> does anyone here have an iphone?
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09:07 < JayDugger> My girlfriend does, kanzure.
09:15 < kanzure> are you near her at the moment?
09:15 < kanzure> i'd like someone to do a search for me
09:16 < kanzure> the online apple app store doesn't have a search feature that works (it seems)
10:10 < Utopiah> kanzure: are you participating to the TeleXLR8 event? will you record/take note? 
10:15 < kanzure> i can't participate because afaik it doesn't run on linux, and i don't want to bother with a vm session
10:15 < Utopiah> can't particpate here either even with a Windows install, the TelePlace VM crashed :(
11:12 < kanzure> presumably a transhumanism-friendly "makerspace" http://jigsawrenaissance.org/
11:12 < kanzure> wta-seattle wiki http://st.imul.us/
11:16 < kanzure> irsrael chapter http://singulariut.com/
11:17 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/life-extension-hebrew
11:17 < kanzure> http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/politics/israel%E2%80%99s-value-transhumanism
11:19 < kyb3R> i have never figured out what's the difference between hackerspace and makerspace...
11:20 < kyb3R> or bothered to think
11:20 < kanzure> ack i forgot about this http://www.imminst2010.com/
11:20 < kanzure> kyb3R: i haven't been able to figure out a difference yet either
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11:26 < kyb3R> I might be biased but to me it looks like a lot of "makerspaces" (not all) seem to be inventing the wheel again. Well...the hackerspaces is not new either, just a return to old community models.
11:27 < Utopiah> kyb3R: I think that's the key advantage of networkeds hackerspaces and their wikis
11:27 < Utopiah> including http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Design_Patterns
11:28 < kanzure> a wiki about promoting transhumanism http://thpromo.pbworks.com/
11:29 < kyb3R> too me it looks more like avoiding the label hacker
11:31 < kyb3R> but ppl do what they like, call it what they like, so big deal
11:33 < kyb3R> I'm not a big fan of commercial(ish) hackerspaces(?) but I don't condemn them either.
11:33 < kanzure> hrm guido was running for the wta board in 2008 :P cute http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/vote2008/
12:11 < klafka> guido van rossum?
12:11 < klafka> oh
12:12 < klafka> that would have been funny though
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12:12 < klafka> i didn't realize there were commercial hackerspaces
12:12 < klafka> that's a bit lame
12:18 < kanzure> huh since when did milw0rm.com shut down?
12:18 < kanzure> klafka: check 'em out: http://biocurious.org/
12:18 < kanzure> also http://techshop.ws/ but at least it doesn't claim to be a hackerspace :)
12:20 < Utopiah> kanzure: TelePlace ASIM event is recorded thus should be available soon
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13:02 < ybit2> kanzure: what kind of search? details plz :)
13:10 < kanzure> what?
13:10 < kanzure> on the iphone? i'd rather not
13:19 < ybit2> fenn: i knew there was a monthly upload limit, but are you saying there's a total limit as well?
13:20 < ybit2> the content is going to be transferred for only about a day, but i should be covered 
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13:51 < kanzure> anyone know about matplc? http://freshmeat.net/projects/matplc/
13:51 < kanzure> "MatPLC is a software-based PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) for industrial automation. Ultimately, it should be possible to run a factory using this software. Currently, one should keep in mind that it is still at the testing stage, and is therefore not suitable for applications where incorrect operation would cause damage or danger. "
13:52 < kanzure> it's by curt wuollet who i found because of a post of his linking to the freedomdefined.org oshw page
13:53 < splicer2> watching you on youtube: "DIY Transhuman Tech - Bryan Bishop - Hplus Summit 2010 (part 1 of 2)"
13:53 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/automforge/
13:54 < kanzure> dunno where this presentation deck came from but it conflates "free beer" with a free-beer-production-machine (heh)
13:54 < kanzure> http://www.denx.de/en/pub/News/Xum2009AbstractsAndPresentations/Beremiz_Roadmap.pdf
13:54 < kanzure> News
13:54 < kanzure> ^the pdf link was found on http://www.nlebas.com/
13:55 < splicer2> "free microbes"
13:55 < kanzure> hg clone http://lolitech.fr/dev/beremiz
13:55 < kanzure> hg clone http://lolitech.fr/dev/plcopeneditor
13:56 < kanzure> they are calling beremiz an "open source automation framework"
13:57 < kanzure> http://lolitech.fr/
13:59 < kanzure> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2324.txt Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol (HTCPCP/1.0)
14:03 < ENKI-][> you figure i could clone a hero 1 with an arduino?
14:03 < ENKI-][> i think i might run out of pins
14:07 < fenn> "maybe you're used to software, which is free to develop" <- they already had 160% of their requested budget when i made that comment, no reason to hold back stuff they already had created, bastards just trying to squeeze every last drop out of kickstarter, which is a poor business plan in my opinion 
14:08 < fenn> the cost of hardware development is severely overrated anyway
14:08 < fenn> only when you're totally ignorant and have to have other people do every step of the process
14:15 < kanzure> everyone is eating it up and calling them "geniuses"
14:18 < fenn> kyb3R: why do you need a msp430? aren't really doing a lot of computation, seems to me arduino would be more accepted by 'makers'
14:19 < fenn> does msp430 even have an open source compiler? (i dont think so)
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14:21 < kyb3R> fenn: it was decision made by my co-developer. We first had Arduino (which would have brought more blog respect). 
14:22 < ENKI-][> if there isn't an open source compiler for it gcc will be patched to generate object files for it within six months. this applies to everything.
14:22 < fenn> i dont really get matplc/beremiz.. would just use emc myself
14:22 < kyb3R> he had some good reasons, which I have hard time remembering now
14:22 < fenn> may be good enough for you, but not for me :P
14:23 < fenn> ENKI-][: it's been a couple years i think
14:24 < fenn> huh, this page makes it sound like it works http://mspgcc.sourceforge.net/
14:26 < ENKI-][> if there's one thing i've learned from the open source world, it's that people will try to develop for ANYTHING
14:26 < ENKI-][> it's quite pleasant really
14:26 < fenn> wow since 2002
14:27 < ENKI-][> after your third gameboy-controlled furby with an AVR cartridge you are no longer surprised ;-)
14:28 < fenn> well, all i gotta say is 'packaging packaging packaging'
14:29 < fenn> michael anissimov doesn't look anything like his internet picture
14:31 < fenn> heh 'free microbes' == 'free beer'?
14:32 < fenn> i'm slow.
14:35 < genehacker> speaking of free microbes, I wondering about setting up a modified e.coli bioreactor that runs off of waste heat from the pilot light in my stove
14:37 < ENKI-][> my preferred method of getting free microbes is to stop showering
14:37 < fenn> genehacker: you mean a pot full of juice with an aquarium bubbler?
14:38 < genehacker> no I was thinking something smaller than that
14:41 < fenn> kanzure: http://derisilab.ucsf.edu/index.php?page=3D
14:41 < fenn> more test tube racks..
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14:47 < kanzure> fenn: i keep thinking that michael looks like a "skater" (i say that fondly) and can never recognize him from his internet pics
14:48 < kanzure> he's the guy i bumped into in nyc once and had to ask him who he was :( (he recognized me, though)
14:48 < splicer2> fenn: yes, and as in "information wants to be free"
14:49 < splicer2> (biohacking as a hackerculture is fascinating to me)
14:52 < splicer2> (much more so than biohacking as a maker/diy subculture)
14:54 < splicer2> (therefore biopunk)
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15:07 < fenn> haha choice quote from tito "What would be great is if there were CAD files for everything out there,"
15:08 < fenn> context: searching for heatsinks
15:08 < kanzure> how about some linkcontext instead
15:09 < kanzure> :P
15:10 < fenn> openpcr.org search for 'cad'
15:13 < kanzure> what to do, what to do
15:19 < fenn> god damn, it's impossible to find detailed non-google maps
15:22 < fenn> lamesauce http://igargoyle.com/streetview/
15:22 < fenn> i wonder how different these terms of service would look in a world without patents http://www.google.com/intl/en_us/help/terms_maps.html
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15:47 < genehacker> WTF
15:47 < genehacker> PLCs only run about about 10 loops per second?
15:48 < genehacker> I don't get it why in this day in age is something that slow
15:48 < genehacker> fluidics is probably faster than that
15:48 < kristianpaul> :)
15:49 < kristianpaul> kanzure: what's the status of apt-get for hardware?
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15:50 < genehacker> what are PLCs used for anyway?
15:50 < kristianpaul> PLC = programable logic controler?
15:50 < kristianpaul> industry stuff for automation process
15:51 < genehacker> yeah
15:51 < kristianpaul> you code it with a logic-like languages
15:51 < genehacker> what sort of automation stuff
15:51 < kristianpaul> it varies
15:52 < kristianpaul> from the simple PID
15:52 < kristianpaul> or assebly line
15:52 < genehacker> what's the most complex thing I could do with one
15:52 < genehacker> PID really?
15:52 < genehacker> you don't need super-fast reaction times or anything?
15:52 < kristianpaul> yeah there are boards for that
15:52 < genehacker> could you balance a pole with a PLC?
15:53 < kristianpaul> hmm..
15:53 < kristianpaul> not sure i just used for basic stuff in a line
15:54 < kristianpaul> yuu shouldbe aware that plc is easilly wire to sensors (wich surelly are more complex than the PLC it seld)
15:54 < genehacker> anything like driving robotic arms or position stuff
15:54 < kristianpaul> s/seld/self
15:55 < kristianpaul> the good about PLC is that is reliable/robust
15:55 < genehacker> yeah I figured as much
15:56 < genehacker> could we control reprap with PLCs?
15:56 < kristianpaul> hehe
15:56 < genehacker> if so then maybe my fluidic reprap idea isn't half crazy
15:57 < kristianpaul> not sure at all i just did basic stuff in the past
15:57 < kristianpaul> not
15:57 < kristianpaul> if you can make it faster sure not
15:57 < kristianpaul> remenber computers... ;)
15:57 < genehacker> especially since I figured out that it's possible to make fluidic logic elements that are on the order of microns
15:57 < kristianpaul> how small?
15:58 < kristianpaul> i think we should find the best analogy in our inside (bodies)
15:58 < genehacker> so small we might have trouble making them
15:58 < genehacker> anyway we don't need computers to control reprap
15:59 < kristianpaul> true
15:59 < genehacker> all reprap does is just interpret g-code sent to it from the computer
15:59 < kristianpaul> until we finout that a MIPS is well , alot..
15:59 < genehacker> it's basically a modernized version of a punched tape driven CNC machine
15:59 < kristianpaul> i read somethign here i think from kanzure that orgainc processor can achieve Mhz speeds
16:00 < kristianpaul> at least 1K is a starting point..
16:00 < kristianpaul> ah but there is need for memory..
16:00 < genehacker> whoa?
16:00 < kristianpaul> so.
16:00 < genehacker> Mhz speed?
16:00 < genehacker> how?
16:00 < kristianpaul> nt sure
16:00 < kristianpaul> nt sure
16:00 < genehacker> was it DNA logic or something like that
16:00 < kristianpaul> lets wait kanzure clarify*
16:00 < kristianpaul> not sure
16:02 < genehacker> if we only had a way to get signals out of it
16:02 < kristianpaul> can we have 1000 bits memory with fluids?
16:02 < kristianpaul> genehacker: yeah thats tricky
16:02 < genehacker> errr I'm not sure how to do memory
16:02 < genehacker> at least on the small scale
16:02 < kristianpaul> i think thats first
16:03 < genehacker> unless we do droplet memory
16:03 < kristianpaul> droplet?
16:03 < kristianpaul> you mena like water drops?
16:03 < kristianpaul> s/mean/mean
16:03 < genehacker> a droplet of water/oil moves between 2 states of blocking flow/not blocking flow
16:04 < kristianpaul> is that prone to vibration noise ?
16:04 < kristianpaul> i think we could use reprap to mix chemicals and make organic compounds
16:04 < genehacker> it could be
16:04 < kristianpaul> may be a open implementation of a OLED is starting point
16:05 < genehacker> but fluidic signals are vibrations and one can make it so that fluidics work in high vibration environments
16:05 < kristianpaul> how is preserved over the time?
16:05 < genehacker> if one makes droplets small enough they probably won't be affected by vibration
16:05 < kristianpaul> i see
16:05 < genehacker> how is what preserved over time?
16:05 < genehacker> the droplet?
16:05 < kristianpaul> i mean memory
16:05 < kristianpaul> yes
16:06 < genehacker> it doesn't move
16:06 < kristianpaul> what about hot/cold enviroments?
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16:06 < genehacker> I'm thinking oil and water might be better as far as droplets go
16:06 < genehacker> don't let it get too cold
16:06 < kristianpaul> heh
16:07 < kristianpaul> chips cant be too hot :p
16:07 < genehacker> also big fluidic logic elements have no problem working glowing white hot
16:07 < genehacker> or in high radiation, high magnetic field environments
16:07 < kristianpaul> 2013...
16:08 < kristianpaul> xD
16:08 < kristianpaul> how is used right now?
16:08 < kristianpaul> fluids logic
16:08 < genehacker> exactly I want to make reprap so it can't be EMP'd by pesky humans
16:08 < genehacker> very little
16:09 < kristianpaul> or
16:10 < kristianpaul> maybe reprap need other bootstraping technology
16:10 < genehacker> it's mostly in obscure applications like military hardware, aviation stuff, and mining equipment where explosive gases might be present
16:10 < kristianpaul> :O
16:10 < genehacker> it's also used to control foutains
16:10 < genehacker> sort of like the same circuit for flashing LEDs but with jets of water as the output
16:11 < kristianpaul> oh
16:11 < kristianpaul> you have the schmatics?
16:12 < fenn> genehacker: i think that was supposed to be '10kHz', not '10Hz'
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16:13 < genehacker> that's still about as fast as fluidics are
16:13 < genehacker> http://www.tippettsfountains.com/index.php this is the company that makes fluidic fountains
16:14 < genehacker> no schematics
16:14 < genehacker> also they have a pretty good primer on fluidics
16:14 < genehacker> http://www.tippettsfountains.com/fluidicsbasics.php
16:15 < genehacker> written by the one of the top researchers in the field who also happens to own the company
16:18 < genehacker> hmmm... I really need to find out how much power microfluidic logic elements use
16:19 < genehacker> it seems the switching pressure is about a millimeter of water, but they don't say anything about the power pressure
16:26 < splicer2> 11 year old Gabriels biobrick robot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bfWnQ_9LSM
16:37 < genehacker> an 11 year old did that?
16:37 < genehacker> how he do the inverse kinematics?
16:37 < genehacker> I thought those were supposed to be hard for parallel manipulators?
16:41 < splicer2> genehacker: an unusual 11 year old but still.
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16:42 < splicer2> (http://2009.igem.org/Team:Washington-Software/Team/Gabriel)
16:42 < Utopiah> splicer2: to me even saying "High Throughput" (and understanding it) at 11y/o is impressive :/
16:46 < splicer2> out of curiosity, would the robot he built be considered maker/diy as he assembled it from a commercial kit?
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19:27 < JayDugger> Sorry, kanzure, I wasn't near an iPhone or the computer when your responded.
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21:24 < kanzure> "Filmmaker Ken Gumbs (Building Gods) is producing a documentary film about the H+ community." hm..
21:24 < kanzure> stalk: Ken Gumbs <kjgumbs@yahoo.com>
21:32 < kanzure> http://transhumanism.org/Nigeria/
21:34 < kanzure> fenn: ken macleod was a wta board member once
21:34 < kanzure> iirc you read a book by him
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22:03 < Utopiah> why do people have to use the "God(s)" metaphor :'(
22:04 < Utopiah> "Well, how to completly fuck up a difficult debate? Well I don't know let's use a totally undefined and heavily connoted topic as a basis to talk about sth else!" :'(
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22:16 < QuantumG> uhh because they're insensitive to how other people find it?
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 18 00:00:17 2010