--- Log opened Mon Aug 09 00:00:17 2010
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07:19 < kanzure> fenn: i was generally talking to everyone so if you'd like to go i'd be happy to dump some tickets on you
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09:29 < bkero> tickets?
09:29 < bkero> :3
09:31 < uniqanomaly> bkero: new name for LSD blotters
09:32 < uniqanomaly> just kidding
09:54 < kanzure> results from humanity+ 2009 board elections: http://pastebin.com/Bx4xBxHG
09:58 < bkero> Fuck yea, new raptop time
10:12 < kanzure> huh.. the russians did a live translation of hplus summit 2010
10:12 < kanzure> http://www.transhumanism-russia.ru/content/view/704/121/
10:14 < kanzure> ftp://ftp.transhuman.ru/
10:18 < kanzure> http://rtd1.pbworks.com/ sensory costume
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10:27 < splicer> i have a feeling  at least SingulatityU are trying to expand to the former eastern block countries.
10:27 < splicer> There was a lot of talks about wanting people to translate after the first SingularityU
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10:31 < genehacker> kanzure are you on the gada prize yet?
10:40 < kanzure> no it will take some time for this to go through
10:48 < genehacker> so apparently no one does automatic machine unloading
10:48 < genehacker> no one
10:51 < kanzure> according to who?
10:51 < genehacker> the guy who invented SLS powder
10:51 < genehacker> also the fab@home guys are in town
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11:22 < fenn> 800 unique viewers (russian) was more than on ustream i believe
11:22 < fenn> (hplus summit rebroadcast)
11:24 < fenn> also i dont get why this document is in english
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12:18 < kanzure> kanzure@pikachu:~$ compare_clouds bryan-bishop ben-lipkowitz heath-matlock charlie-manion
12:18 < kanzure> 83.7% similarity
12:35 < kanzure> ok this is pretty fun.. :) i am fixing up tag_cloud.html from meetlog.txt so that i can click on multiple tags and then see the person intersection for that set
12:38 < kanzure> ooh i can make it darken out all the other tags when there is no intersection available with any of them (leaving only positive options)
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13:30 < fenn> are you using javascript?
13:31 < fenn> just clicking on stuff doesn't let you specify "and" or "or"
13:32 < fenn> also you might want to search for 'bio -biobrick -synbio'
13:35 < kanzure> i was thinking of using javascript (specifically the jquery library)
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13:35 < kanzure> maybe some fancy stuff like ctrl-click to mean "and" while ctrl+shift means "not" or other crazy things like that
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13:36 < fenn> what's it called when i find the best thing of a set of things by comparing pairs of things two at a time?
13:36 < fenn> is this just sorting?
13:36 < kanzure> and if i switch from font size to colors for frequency, i could do something with font color plus background color where background color indicates a cluster (cluster identity is just a specific color) 
13:36 < kanzure> the advantage of this is that things that suck will "fade out" with the colors
13:37 < kanzure> .. if i pick colors correctly.
13:37  * kanzure just got done spending a few minutes converting over to sqlite.. because yaml.load was taking 8min to process meetlog.txt
13:37 < fenn> heh
13:37 < kanzure> it's almost as bad as waiting for a giant C++ project to compile
13:38 < fenn> samantha atkins informs me that sqlite can 'accidentally lose data' 
13:38 < fenn> why didnt you use mongodb or couchdb or whatever's hot
13:38 < fenn> basically a json object store
13:38 < kanzure> i only act like a whore half the time.. i have yet to decide if i am or not
13:38 < kanzure> oh you mean on technical merits not because it's hot
13:39 < fenn> yes
13:39 < fenn> basically i dont understand why anybody would willingly use sql
13:39 < kanzure> i'm using sqlite because i have this "super secret" django frontend for all this
13:39 < kanzure> i think django has couchdb support though. i forget.
13:39 < fenn> yeah, it's fairly new
13:40 < kanzure> i wonder if "find all occurrences of this tag in a set of 40,000 elements" is going to tax javascript in a browser or not
13:40 < fenn> i thought the point of jquery is that it queries the server for the answer
13:41 < kanzure> jquery is a javascript library for doing fancy ui effects in many cases
13:41 < fenn> besides, it builds character to do it the right way
13:41 < kanzure> so the reason why i'm doing any of this today is because i figured that i've been doing the biggest market validation study evar
13:42 < kanzure> and i want to see the intersection of tag clouds for different people
13:42 < kanzure> i.e. instead of "hey try my new app or product" maybe "query the clouds for a set of people that i might actually like doing something nice for"
13:42 < kanzure> (and then get back things that they like to talk about or need)
13:43 < fenn> you mean targeting your 'hey try my new app' to the people who might actually be interested?
13:43 < kanzure> no
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13:43 < kanzure> more like "oh i didn't realize how prevalent complaints about x were between these 200 people"
13:43 < kanzure> "gee this might require some investigation"
13:44 < kanzure> and finding that "x" involves clusters and similarities and tags that are shared between groups of people that i'm probably not aware of
13:44 < fenn> you dont have data at that level of detail
13:44 < kanzure> "reprap, sucks"
13:45 < kanzure> heh
13:45 < fenn> [everything you've ever talked to them about], sucks
13:45 < kanzure> no i have [stuff i talked about with them for that day], sucks
13:46 < fenn> how do you keep it from all getting jumbled together?
13:46 < uniqanomaly> kanzure check this out http://fallabs.com/kyotocabinet/ instead of sqlite
13:46 < kanzure> wowza the python script (that loads the yaml file) is eating 180 MB
13:46 < uniqanomaly> sqlite is a bad joke
13:47 < uniqanomaly> hmm, it don't have to fit your needs :<
13:47 < uniqanomaly> whatevAr
13:47 < kanzure> fenn: primarily i don't.. there's a way to do that, but i don't want to
13:48 < kanzure> i think topic level clustering is fine, or something
13:48 < fenn> i just meant the ', sucks' tokenizing
13:48 < kanzure> it won't really reveal much that i don't already know but maybe it will show me clusters of different people in the clouds that i could do something better with
13:48 < kanzure> fenn: wait, what?
13:49 < fenn> 'sucks' is just another topic of conversation, no?
13:49 < kanzure> right
13:49 < fenn> so you're going to like, go through each day and delete 'sucks' and add '-sucks' to every entry for that dat
13:49 < kanzure> hah, no
13:50 < kanzure> the way to figure out if "sucks" is being applied to a particular tag is to look at other instances of the other tags being used and see the likelihood of whether or not it will appear next to "sucks"
13:50 < fenn> hm ok
13:50 < kanzure> [tag 1, tag 2, tag 3, tag 4, sucks] <-- look at other instances of tags 1 through 4 being used and see their likelihoods of sucks being present
13:50 < kanzure> this doesn't work when everything sucks
13:51 < fenn> that's when you use SNAFU
13:51 < kanzure> i'm doomed
13:52  * fenn reads about pairwise comparison
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13:53 < fenn> i wish statistics werent so boring
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13:54 < kanzure> there's some "porno statistics" videos on youtube that teach it to you as if you can't understand it unless sleazy women are pandering to every symbol
13:55 < kanzure> 41,919 minor page faults? hrm
13:55 < kanzure> 18minutes?
13:56 < fenn> lol i wonder if that would hold water.. "i swear i was just trying to learn about statistics'
13:58 < kanzure> well, it's now in an sqlite database
13:58 < kanzure> i guess i should write the views now.. had i known that i was wasting 18min i would have been doing it in the meanwhile
14:01 < kanzure> what should i call a 2-data-point-centric tag cloud? where you have tags but also people (and the people are also like tags)
14:01 < kanzure> you can apply a tag to a person at a particular date, and you can also apply a person to a particular tag
14:01 < kanzure> it's a confusing data paradigm for visualization
14:01 < fenn> filter?
14:01 < kanzure> ooh i need a time slider too.. to see the change in the shape and form of the tag cloud with respect to time
14:01 < fenn> btw you know about django's filtering stuffs right?
14:02 < kanzure> model.objects.filter()?
14:02 < fenn> yeah, and the admin has a thing you click on to filter by tag or whatever
14:03 < kanzure> (another weird thing is that a person is a perfectly acceptable value for a tag (i just prepend the tag with "person:") so that probably fucks the data model up)
14:04 < fenn> i would keep person separate, but that's just me
14:04 < kanzure> but what if you talk about a person
14:04 < fenn> unless the person's a topic of conversation
14:05 < kanzure> read that as "what if you talk with joseph jackson" :P
14:05 < fenn> s/with/about/?
14:05 < kanzure> - ben lipkowitz: ["person:joseph jackson"] was just added.
14:05 < fenn> hm ok
14:06 < fenn> that means i said something about joseph jackson?
14:06 < kanzure> i could just do "joseph jackson" but honestly i don't want to run a lookup on all 40,000 tags just to check if it's one of the 9,000 people
14:06 < kanzure> right
14:06 < fenn> ooo all 40,000 tags
14:06 < kanzure> hm?
14:06 < fenn> Big Data
14:06 < kanzure> heh
14:07 < kanzure> the sqlite database is 2.3 MB.. want?
14:07 < kanzure> it's marginally more usable than a giant .yaml file
14:07 < fenn> uh, what would i do with it?
14:07 < fenn> have you started keeping faces of people?
14:07 < kanzure> for that matter what am *i* supposed to do with it
14:07 < kanzure> pictures?
14:08 < kanzure> or do you mean qualitative descriptions of how terrible their face is
14:08 < fenn> so i've got this fantasy of having augmented reality with face recognition where it puts past context up next to the person
14:08 < fenn> a prerequisite is having a picture of their face to recognize on
14:09 < kanzure> one thing i have is a facebook scraper that records all of the friends for each of my facebook friends (and then compares intersections among them for people that i am not also friends with)
14:09 < kanzure> i guess i could have it scrape the profile pics too
14:09 < kanzure> isn't that the purpose of facebook anyway?
14:09 < kanzure> to be a book of faces?
14:09 < fenn> yeah that's all facebook is for
14:09 < fenn> *bonks facebook devs*
14:09 < kanzure> really the idea is simple.. let's make a book and put FACES in it. we can call it a FACEbook. and then put it in your face.
14:09 < kanzure> :/
14:10 < fenn> yo dawg, i put faces in your face so you can face faces while you face
14:11 < kanzure> write django views for this database or go check on davinci?
14:11 < fenn> views
14:11 < kanzure> although i don't know if anyone will be there by the time i get there
14:11 < kanzure> yeah?
14:11 < fenn> you're already thinking about it, davinci is just procrastination fodder
14:13 < kanzure> there's no real reason for me to be doing any of this though :P
14:13 < kanzure> this is just meta procrastination hehe
14:13  * kanzure works on some views
14:13 < fenn> the stuff that dreams are made of
14:24 < kanzure> oof.. 15sec to load /tags
14:24 < kanzure> (main tag cloud view)
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14:25 < fenn> that's not awful for 40k tags on one page
14:26 < kanzure> 40k is not the unique count
14:27 < kanzure> unique: 7125
14:31 < fenn> dependency finding library http://pypi.python.org/pypi/topsort/0.9
14:31  * kanzure has used it
14:38 < kanzure> brainfart.. how do i capture everything after / in people/person+name+goes+here ?
14:39 < fenn> re.search('/(.*)')
14:40 < fenn> oh you're doing urlconfs
14:40 < kanzure> yeah :/
14:40 < fenn> same thing then
14:40 < kanzure> ?P<name>regexstuffhere
14:41 < kanzure> (how is this any better than perl?)
14:41 < fenn> ('^people/(.*)', your_view),
14:41 < fenn> because it's not perl
14:41 < kanzure> oh right
14:41 < kanzure> hm that didn't do it
14:42 < kanzure> oh i am forgetting lots of parenthesis
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14:50 < QuantumG> [insert LISP joke]
14:51 < kanzure> i don't think you can make a lisp joke with []s
14:51 < QuantumG> NYT published Jaron Lanier again.. what a tool
14:51 < kanzure> fenn: what should /tag/blah show?
14:52 < fenn> people into that tag, related tags
14:52 < fenn> maybe some links to topical material
14:52 < kanzure> heh
14:52 < kanzure> "generic wikipedia link"
14:52 < kanzure> and eventually some graphs i guess
14:52 < fenn> don't you have linkdumps for various tags?
14:53 < fenn> or you could use bookmark folders as tags (do you still bookmark obsessively?)
14:54 < kanzure> i stopped bookmarking when my bookmarking tools failed me
14:55  * fenn mumbles something about tab candy
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16:01 < kanzure> http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/08/09/back-to-school-makerbot-teacher-giveaway/
16:03 < kanzure> richard thiemes published a book recently https://www.createspace.com/3434427
16:03 < kanzure> apparently it includes something about biohacking
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16:26 < kanzure> "I have a deep nostalgia for the future." -- Max More
16:36 < kanzure> oh man.. the wta members mailing list is full of crap
16:36 < kanzure> the wta was a vehicle for financial fraud for a while?
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16:38 < fenn> The ER-200 Personal Noise Dosimeter is an inexpensive, handheld screening device that provides a good estimate of noise dose and alerts the user to the risk of over exposure.
16:39 < fenn> "do not stare into laser with remaining ear" or something 
16:44 < kanzure> and here i thought you were mentioning noise because of i'm reading the wta membership list
16:44 < kanzure> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/private/wtahall/
16:44 < kanzure> register here to get into the archives: http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wtahall
16:45 < QuantumG> I watched some tv show the other night that had a woman on it who had her face blown off by a shotgun blast, years ago, and the story was that they were giving her a new face.
16:46 < QuantumG> So I watch it, hoping for some decent tech.. nope, silicone rubber, surgically implanted magnets
16:46 < kanzure> ouch
16:46 < QuantumG> fucking 1970s era shit and they're tauting it as a medical miracle
16:46 < kanzure> there was another story of the same sort recently that- instead of silicone- did a face transplant
16:48 < QuantumG> they even did a plaster cast of her "face".. I mean really?  plaster casts?
16:50 < fenn> you mean they did a cast of the stump?
16:51 < fenn> do i want to read wta archives?
16:51 < kanzure> no, you don't
16:51 < kanzure> it's just worse than i thought
16:52 < kanzure> like unbelievably inefficient and terrible and awful :(
16:52 < fenn> QuantumG: what keeps the flesh between the magnets from getting pinched and dying?
16:52 < kanzure> it makes diybio look like a frictionless cog by comparison
16:52 < fenn> no argument diagrams? :P
16:53 < kanzure> what?
16:53 < QuantumG> fenn: presumably nothing... maybe the magnets are not very strong
16:53 < QuantumG> either way, she looks like the phantom of the opera now instead of the elephant man
16:53 < fenn> argument diagrams: http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/arg/complex.php
16:54 < fenn> (the joke here is you can only diagram formal logical propositions)
16:56 < kanzure> if you're willing to pay $100/mo for some chairs, would other people pay $100/mo for an organization that doesn't suck as much as wta
16:56 < kanzure> it could be spinned as "for people who are serious about any of this crap"
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16:57 < fenn> i think you have to fix the root cause either way
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16:57 < kanzure> what's the root cause?
16:58 < kanzure> james hughes?
16:58 < fenn> if you make a new 'for rich people only wta' you will still get the same petty drama
16:58 < kanzure> are you suggesting assassination?
16:58 < fenn> lol
16:58 < fenn> exile to malta
16:59 < kanzure> we should kidnap aubrey de grey, bag him, and put him to work in a sketchy cave (call it afghanistan) and tell him to make us immortal
16:59 < fenn> "do it or else you're donna die, sucker"
16:59 < kanzure> heh
16:59  * fenn checks his watch
17:00 < fenn> okay i have no idea what i'm supposedly working on now
17:00 < kanzure> you're trying to figure out how the fuck you're going to visualize all this CAD stuff i've been doing
17:00 < kanzure> and no i don't want to use brlcad's raytracer
17:01 < fenn> tesselate nurbs surfaces with opennurbs or whatever, use that code to fix brlcad
17:01 < kanzure> annd i don't really want to write my own tessellation algorithm. it's trivial but also another point of failure.
17:02 < QuantumG> doesn't brl have some tessellator now?
17:02 < kanzure> #brlcad claims they had tesselation for nurbs previously, but not for their latest implementation?
17:02 < kanzure> i wasn't able to find the code in svn though
17:02  * fenn notices http://brlcad.org/xref/source/src/other/openNURBS/opennurbs_mesh.h
17:02 < fenn> is that even open source?
17:03 < kanzure> that's quite a copyright disclaimer
17:03 < kanzure> Robert McNeel & Associates
17:03 < kanzure> oh you're on it already
17:03 < fenn> you'd think their faq would say something about the license
17:04 < kanzure> well, presumably everything brlcad does is in the public domain
17:04 < fenn> Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software.
17:04 < fenn> why didn't they just say that
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17:05 < kanzure> it's also slightly alarming that none of the comments mention what algorithm is being used here
17:05 < kanzure> tessellation is pretty common but there's a few ways to go about it
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17:07 < kanzure> "Calculate a mesh representation of the NURBS surface's control polygon.
17:07 < kanzure> "Calculate a quick and dirty polygon mesh approximation
17:17 < fenn> is step only nurbs curves? or are there other types of curves?
17:25 < kanzure> bezier curves, bounded curves, composite curve segments, polylines, bsplines, trimmed curves, composite curves, composite curves on surfaces, boundary curves, curve bounded surfaces, intersection curves, surface curves, edge curves, geometric curve set, dimension curves, uniform curves, quasi uniform curves, bspline curve with knots, rational bspline curve, seam curves, trimmed curves, 
17:27 < kanzure> i think that's it? :P
17:27 < fenn> aside from "dimension curves" and "geometric curve set" which i dont know, i think those are all nurbs
17:28 < QuantumG> Jason Lanier is a hipster doofus, and his arguments boil down to "I never came to grips with materialistic reality". His arguments are 17th century nonsense and the only reason why he gets away with them is that no-one wants to argue with a smelly hippie.
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17:28 < kanzure> dimension_curve doesn't actually appear in ap203
17:29 < fenn> QuantumG: just in general, or were you referring to some specific arguments?
17:29 < kanzure> and geometric_curve_set inherits from geometric_set which inherits from representation_item so it's pretty low on the food chain of inheritance.. it's probably some internal STEP-only thing.
17:29 < fenn> or was this on wtahall?
17:29 < kanzure> fenn: QuantumG has been reading NYT
17:30 < QuantumG> all his arguments are the same, but I was referring to his latest NY Times article.. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/opinion/09lanier.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th
17:30 < kanzure> QuantumG: did you see my complaints about jaron lanier a few weeks ago?
17:30 < kanzure> (in here)
17:30 < QuantumG> if I did I don't remember them
17:30 < kanzure> suffice it to say, he's a troll
17:30 < kanzure> so whatever.
17:30 < QuantumG> I wish you wouldn't insult trolls
17:30 < kanzure> what?
17:31 < QuantumG> :)
17:31 < kanzure> oh, he's even worse?
17:31 < kanzure> you could also have meant "i wish you wouldn't insult jaron lanier by calling him a troll and thus provoking him"
17:31 < fenn> remember, QuantumG is here to represent the troll faction
17:31 < kanzure> (i.e., don't feed the trolls)
17:31 < QuantumG> hehe
17:31 < kanzure> that's the dumbest job i've ever heard
17:31 < kanzure> but i can think of no one better suited to do it
17:32 < fenn> soon they will have lobbyists in DC
17:32 < QuantumG> seriously, Lanier needs a good trolling
17:32 < kanzure> pmetzger left and hasn't come back because he thinks we hate him
17:32 < QuantumG> someone should rewrite one of his arguments with all the hipster words replaced with what they really mean
17:32 < kanzure> QuantumG: maybe we can get /b to become his loyal followers
17:32 < QuantumG> like insert "soul" and "god" a few times
17:33 < jcluck> lol
17:33 < kanzure> fenn: why were you asking re: nurbs?
17:36 < fenn> if everything can be done with opennurbs and brlcad's step code, then that would seem to be a good thing
17:37 < QuantumG> someone's summary of Lanier's opinion is "yeah, right on!  We're not just machines!"  which gives me shivers the same way people say "yeah, right on!  We're not just apes!" when denying evolution.
17:37 < kanzure> fenn: i haven't figured out how this would be hooked up yet
17:38 < kanzure> i guess export step, have brlcad import it
17:38 < kanzure> but the internal part where brlcad goes from the imported step stuff to tessellation is what doesn't exist at the moment
17:38 < QuantumG> so wait, have you actually done something useful with brlcad that you want to render?
17:39 < kanzure> i've written a python thing that exports to STEP
17:39 < kanzure> nobody is going to use this if they can't see what they are making
17:40 < QuantumG> so is there stuff people have done in brlcad that you actually want to export?
17:40 < kanzure> ...
17:40 < QuantumG> cause as far as I can tell, no-one has ever done anything in brlcad.
17:40 < kanzure> i don't think you're listening :P
17:40 < QuantumG> or, ya know, it's "secret"
17:40 < fenn> tanks!
17:40 < fenn> *cue cowboy bebop music*
17:41 < fenn> or was that *cue wagner* i forget
17:41 < kanzure> what just happened
17:43 < fenn> QuantumG: lanier takes as common knowledge that recommendation engines are being touted as AGI, which i haven't seen at all
17:43 < QuantumG> I have no problem with arguing that AGI is a myth.
17:44 < QuantumG> or that people who point to Moores law as proof of the inevitability of AGI are just crackpots.
17:44 < QuantumG> what I have a problem with is his mind-brain duality agenda.
17:44 < fenn> i dont really get what he's trying to say in the last section about religion
17:45 < QuantumG> you're trying to make me read this piece of shit arn't ya
17:45 < fenn> heh no, i thought you had already read it
17:45 < QuantumG> nah, I read "Jason Lanier" and that's as far as I got
17:46 < ENKI-][> recommendation engines are, tbh, the cloest thing we have to AGI in terms of flexibility. pagerank is, internally, very similar to a recommendation engine. the same mechanisms that make recommendation engines work also are useful for automatic translation between non-parallel corpori
17:46 < QuantumG> err, Jaron Lanier 
17:46 < QuantumG> even
17:46 < ENKI-][> but, i get the impression that lanier doesn't have a point, and he's feeling bad that he didn't get to cash in on the whole www culture that he feels he invented
17:47 < QuantumG> his "point" is older than Liebiniz.
17:47 < ENKI-][> that or he just wants to make money. anyone who criticizes the web and has a big name is bound to make money once the journalists try to 'cover' it
17:47 < QuantumG> Liebniz.
17:48 < QuantumG> his point is "humans have souls and you can't make a machine with a soul"
17:48 < ENKI-][> is it one that liebniz agreed with or one that he disagreed with?
17:48 < ENKI-][> oh
17:48 < jcluck> I think what he means is that the fanatacism and holy-grail rherotic about AI is unwarranted
17:48 < kanzure> leibniz
17:48 < QuantumG> he just can't say it like that cause everyone would say "that's nice, go away" so he spices it up with some hipster doofus terminology
17:48 < ENKI-][> honestly, i don't think anybody wants an AGI aside from AGI researchers
17:48 < kanzure> you all owe me a cookie
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17:49 < ENKI-][> if we had an AGI, what would we do with it?
17:49 < QuantumG> If you can provide me with a team of programmers who I don't have to pay I'll happily stop wanting for a sophisticated AGI
17:50 < ENKI-][> QuantumG: an AGI would demand to be paid, probably
17:50 < fenn> lol
17:50 < ENKI-][> unless you had nothing that it wanted, or it wanted nothing
17:50 < ENKI-][> it might offer just to fuck with you
17:50 < fenn> what if it wanted to do whatever you said
17:50 < ENKI-][> who knows
17:51 < fenn> genie in a bottle
17:51 < ENKI-][> it's human-equivalent in amount of intelligence, but since it lacks a body (probably) and doesn't have the same drives, who the hell knows what it would desire?
17:51 < jcluck> electrons
17:51 < ENKI-][> well, yeah
17:51 < kanzure> enk	are you a singularitiarian?
17:51 < ENKI-][> but who's to say that it would have an instinct for survival, jcluck?
17:52 < jcluck> if it were alive, it would
17:52 < ENKI-][> evolution favors those who want to survive because those who want to survive generally end up surviving
17:52 < ENKI-][> but it might take a few generations of widespread AGI before most of them favor survival
17:52 < fenn> why do you assume that it's evolved?
17:52 < ENKI-][> fenn: i don't. that's my point.
17:52 < QuantumG> sigh.
17:53 < QuantumG> anyone who makes a full human intelligence in a box deserves everything they get
17:53 < ENKI-][> if enough people just kill AGIs that lack the will to live, eventually most of the surviving AGIs will have a survival instinct. but, that's not necessarily built-in
17:53 < QuantumG> whereas something that can understand natural language and code what I fucking telling it to code is not going to be day dreaming about kittens.
17:54 < jcluck> what will it day dream about?
17:54 < jcluck> puppies?
17:54 < fenn> electric kittens
17:54 < ENKI-][> QuantumG: use evolutionary algorithms with contraints as your test suite. it will be unmaintainable, though
17:54 < jcluck> maybe it would gain internet access, find /b and decide to off itself
17:54 < QuantumG> it wont.  Every single thought it has will be directed towards the goal of satisfying my query.
17:56 < ENKI-][> alternately, you could probably phrase your language in terms of prolog DCGs and frame your constraints as preds, then generate all possible solutions with the constructions optimized towards size and a cutoff point specified
17:56 < fenn> i'd love to carry on this delightful speculative discourse, but i should really try to escape this building i'm in before i get sucked into something
17:56 < ENKI-][> it would take six times as long to write a simple program but you wouldn't need to do it yourself
17:57 < ENKI-][> if you managed to make a machine that could do logical inferences in parallel (quantum computers should be good for this since prolog is basically just an exhaustive search) you might even get performance similar to that of a human
17:58 < ENKI-][> it's doable. i've done demos of it in the past.
17:58 < QuantumG> one gets maintainable code by reasoning.
17:59 < ENKI-][> but it's a mess because it is essentially just generating all possible syntactically correct programs and eliminating the ones that don't do what you want
17:59 < QuantumG> that and having some understanding of what maintainable code is.
18:00 < ENKI-][> if you can generate perfectly good complete suites of code just by writing one line of prolog constraint testing, why bother maintaining it? just put as part of the constraint system to eliminate any bugs you see and make a new source tree
18:00 < QuantumG> being able to say "why does running the program with command line A give different results to command line B when I expect the same?" and getting a sensible answer is something programmers do too.
18:00 < QuantumG> because programs exist in time?
18:01 < ENKI-][> there is that, yes
18:01 < jcluck> hah
18:01 < ENKI-][> the only reason, currently, that the whole have-prolog-write-your-code thing is totally unfeasable is slowness
18:01 < ENKI-][> it'd take months to generate "hello world"
18:02 < QuantumG> that and its pointless
18:02 < ENKI-][> nonsense
18:03 < QuantumG> ya know how the droid armies in Episode One are human shaped?  I had someone ask me when that movie came out why you'd have human shaped robot soldiers when clearly the non-human-shaped robots are superior.
18:03 < ENKI-][> if it was fast, you could do nothing but translate the project description into prolog, and have the entire codebase written without lifting a finger
18:03 < QuantumG> well, as it turns out, someone actually has an answer to that question.. I hazard to say it was Lucas.. "the human shaped robot soldiers fit in with the rest of the army"
18:04 < QuantumG> you can turn to your robot "Sergent" and say "take them to camp A for processing" and he knows what you're talking about and does something you can understand.
18:05 < QuantumG> so if you had a server farm of AI programmers you could complement them with human programmers and managers and *do productive work*
18:05 < QuantumG> whether or not the AI programmers are "alive" or "intelligent" is irrelevant.
18:07 < ENKI-][> i suppose
18:10 < ENKI-][> this is, however, assuming that the AI programmers are better at coding than your average third-world programmer on rentacoder, who will probably do the job (poorly) for half of what it costs to power and cool the AI programmers
18:10 < kanzure> who was it that pitched make-an-ai-by-hiring-out-devtime-on-rentacoder?
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18:11 < kanzure> whoever it was has clearly never used rentacoder before)[1~(
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18:12 < QuantumG> I've heard that argument before, of course it makes no sense from a military-industrial-complex perspective.. which is relevant because that's who's been putting the most investment into this for decades.
18:14 < ENKI-][> that's because they are lagging behind the military-occult complex, which has been recruiting demons to do their coding since the days of atlantis
18:14 < QuantumG> for surez
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18:36 < kanzure> QuantumG: i'm still not sure if you understand what it is that i am doing (the thing that caused the earlier confusion)
18:37 < QuantumG> I doubt I am too
18:37 < kanzure> or whether you (or even i) care enough to clarify
18:37 < kanzure> basically i've written a CAD API thingy in python
18:37 < QuantumG> go on then
18:37 < kanzure> so that users can type stuff like sphere.fuse(box) and other random stuff
18:37 < kanzure> autocad has had autolisp for a few decades now, for instance
18:37 < kanzure> heekscad has heekspython (but i've never got it running)
18:38 < kanzure> pythonocc is a good example except the api is terrible, and openscad is an ok example too but it doesn't export to CAD formats
18:38 < kanzure> so anyway, my little python file here will be useless to a lot of people if no visualization is taking place
18:39 < QuantumG> and is it more than CSG?
18:40 < kanzure> boundary representation, nurbs, curves and solid geometry
18:40 < QuantumG> fun
18:41 < kanzure> but primarily the api part in python for now is just csg because Sphere() is an obvious thing for people to try
18:41 < kanzure> so anyway, nobody is really going to use this unless there's a way to visualize the geometry as they update it
18:43 < QuantumG> k, well for csg there's some "image based csg" stuff floating around
18:43 < kanzure> opencsg?
18:43 < QuantumG> I think you looked at it
18:43 < QuantumG> yes
18:44 < kanzure> fenn was pointing out some of the tessellation stuff that brlcad does for opennurbs stuff..
18:44 < kanzure> i wonder how opencascade does it
18:44 < kanzure> i probably shouldn't be wondering that. that's a bad thing to wonder.
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19:05 < kanzure> october 9th in burlingame, california is christine peterson's conference on life extension
19:05 < kanzure> http://lifeextensionconference.com/
19:08 < genehacker> so can anyone think of a reason why DARPA would need an 100 meter aperture orbital telescope
19:10 < QuantumG> couple
19:10 < QuantumG> space based space surveillance is pretty popular at the moment
19:10 < QuantumG> so you can see where everyone has their birds
19:10 < kanzure> jrayhawk: esther dyson's website links directly to chris locke who claims to have written "the cluetrain manifesto"
19:10 < kanzure> http://www.edventure.com/
19:10 < kanzure> http://www.rageboy.com/recent/
19:11 < kanzure> this is disturbing. i was hoping that "the cluetrain manifesto" was something like timecube that nobody takes seriously
19:11 < kanzure> (yes, yes, i know, TIMECUBE IS VERY SERIOUS)
19:12 < kanzure> "I created this satiric blog for my own amusement. Despite the fact that Kat Herding is -- pretty obviously -- not a real person, "she" continues to receive several marriage proposals per week."
19:12 < kanzure> http://www.rageboy.com/recent/images/kat-herding-blog.jpg
19:15 < jcluck> cute suits and ajax
19:15 < jcluck> I'm in loooove
19:19 < QuantumG> I hate old media
19:23 < genehacker> 100 meter optical aperature is a bit overkill for surveillance 
19:23 < QuantumG> do you wanna read the serial numbers on the satellite or not?
19:24 < genehacker> from in space?
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19:24 < genehacker> cia sats can supposedly read newspapers from space
19:24 < QuantumG> space based space surveillance is in space yes
19:25 < genehacker> this is the sort of thing you'd need to do astronomy
19:25 < genehacker> darpa doesn't do astronomy
19:25 < genehacker> errr... it might have been radio aperature I guess
19:26 < QuantumG> I think DARPA might also be vying for planetary protection from asteroids these days too
19:26 < genehacker> and ALIEN TERRORIST COMMIES FROM ANOTHER GALAXY!
19:26 < QuantumG> planetary protection is perfectly serious
19:27 < genehacker> it is
19:27 < genehacker> it's just that it attracts less funding
19:27 < QuantumG> I'm not sure it does
19:28 < QuantumG> the asteroid surveys have certainly gotten more funding than traditional astronomy
19:28 < kanzure> christine peterson calls peter thiel a "longevity philanthropist" but can anyone figure out what he's invested in related to longevity? livly?
19:28 < kanzure> i guess he could have made a few donations to SENS or something and not publicized it
19:29 < genehacker> really?
19:30 < QuantumG> even more important: the asteroid surveys have gotten priority telescope time
19:30 < QuantumG> pissing off every astronomer out there
19:31 < genehacker> well hopefully darpa does succeed with their HUGE FUCKING TELESCOPE proposal, if anything it'll bring new space tech
19:40 < fenn> i love how his site is covered in web 2.0 crap and he has this line in his book "We will not settle for the 4-color brochure, for web sites chock-a-block with eye candy but lacking any substance."
19:40 < fenn> "Will settle for $200/hr"
19:45 < kanzure> updated: http://www.diybiosea.org/
19:45 < kanzure> more photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/101000419582123846989/080810?feat=directlink
19:48 < kanzure> wait what are they all doing in washington? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LODaBMSPrAI/TF-4xb77bqI/AAAAAAAAAQw/koodhc6IAtc/s1600/IMG_2090.JPG
19:48 < kanzure> i really hate how secretive mac and jason are.. it's totally counter-productive
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19:49 < kanzure> does anyone know who these people are? Alessandro, Michal, Rik, Rob, Elizabeth
19:49 < kanzure> alessandro delfanti
19:50 < kanzure> elizabeth buschmann
19:50 < kanzure> rob.. carlson? 
19:50 < kanzure> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LODaBMSPrAI/TF-0eWKxEYI/AAAAAAAAAQg/fKJbMCoToxM/s1600/Robbie+and+Jen+042.jpg
19:51 < kanzure> "randy hall..  is currently in the process of setting up Seattle Open Biolabs, a wetlab adjacent to a hackerspace he's a part of, Hackerbot."
19:52 < kanzure> "Sean, Dan, Alec, Ingrid, Rob, Mike, Scott, Kris, Tyler. "
19:52 < kanzure> alec nielsen, rob carlson, the others i can't identify
19:52 < genehacker> almost forgot, the fab@home guys are trying to print bristlebots
19:53 < genehacker> they're having trouble...
19:53 < kanzure> http://www.hackerbotlabs.com/
19:54 < QuantumG> apparently Hawking has been making the "Humans Must Go Into Space" argument for 10 years and every 4 years it is "news".
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20:00 < kanzure> sean is either sean yoo or sean kelley-clarke
20:00 < kanzure> or sean sleight
20:00 < kanzure> ok it's sean sleight
20:05 < kanzure> mike might be michael chu
20:06 < kanzure> scott is scott mason
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20:29 < genehacker> quantumg he is saying it till it sinks in
20:29 < QuantumG> I think if anyone asks him about space he just presses the "advocate space colonization" button and then drools for 30 minutes
20:30 < fenn> that's the real reason he won't update his speech software
20:30 < genehacker> it's his voice dammit!
20:31 < genehacker> after all we wouldn't want Hawking sounding like that japanese god awful singer now would we?
20:32 < fenn> hatsune hawkingu
20:33 < fenn> "HP CEO sex scandal" - wait a minute, i thought everybody already knew the megacorp ceo's were amoral bastards
20:34 < QuantumG> we had one here recently too
20:35 < QuantumG> "David Jones" is a clothing and general housewares outlet
20:35 < QuantumG> female suing for a telephone number in damages
20:37 < kanzure> fenn: can you stalk siddartha s. verma for me? kthx you won't be disappointed
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20:39 < kanzure> oh man, joseph is great. right on schedule, and *bam* i have more people: tags to add :)
20:42 < fenn> "it is a sin to be happy when others are crying and dying in pain."
20:42 < fenn> doesn't this have a corrolary 
20:42 < fenn> and then a lemma which proves that all emotion is evil, etc ,etc
20:45 < kanzure> fenn: if you end up at the singularity summit, could you see what siddartha is up to?
20:46 < kanzure> he was like 11 and on the wta board for some reason
20:46 < fenn> {NB: THIS BLOG ENTRY WAS WRITTEN BY ME YESTERDAY, INSIDE THE LECTURE HALL, WHILE ATTENDING THE LECTURE BY Prof. S.V.Dhurandhar. THE BLOG IS SUPPOSED TO BE READ IN A VERY PRESENT FORM OF REFERENCE, AS IF ALL THE EVENTS ARE HAPPENING WITH ME AT THIS MOMENT OF TIME. }
20:47 < kanzure> or he might just be crazy
20:50 < kanzure> hah, he shouts out "blimey"
20:50 < kanzure> british influence is still prevalent in india it seems
20:52 < kanzure> that blog post reminded me of genehacker except indian or something and scrambling for connections
20:53 < genehacker> am I like that?
20:53 < kanzure> it's hard to explain
20:53 < kanzure> do you know what a markov chain is?
20:53 < genehacker> yes
20:54 < kanzure> cool.
20:54 < genehacker> and I am one
20:55 < kanzure> well, 
20:55 < kanzure> no.
20:55 < genehacker> ok so I'm acting like a markov chain?
20:57 < kanzure> nope. just when you come in late to a conversation and you're trying to figure out the context, it seems like a markov chain
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21:06 < genehacker> oh ok
21:06 < genehacker> I see now
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21:53 < fenn> odd that i want to prefix 5 day old news with "maybe old news" http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-google-wave.html
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22:03 < kanzure> sean sleight says "I can't remember how I know you besides that you are involved with synthetic biology somehow, but glad you found me."
22:03 < kanzure> how do these random people know me?
22:05 < QuantumG> oh, in the "how did you find out about Singularity Summit Melbourne?" box I put "kanzure" .. I assume they'll know what that means.
22:07 < kanzure> oof, i'm my own category
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22:57 < kanzure> http://blogs.biobus.org/2010/08/good-as-new/
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23:06 < fenn> http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/1418685800/
23:07 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@cpe-66-68-110-194.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:17 < fenn> hah a real life gargoyle, and female no less http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/1022671384/
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23:20 < bkero> fenn: you're a fenn
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 10 00:00:17 2010