--- Log opened Wed Aug 18 00:00:17 2010
00:14 < kanzure> "where did i say that?" is evidence of needing sleep :) didn't see that you said "what do they mean" and not "what do you mean when.."
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00:16 < kanzure> slashdot seems broken
00:20 < kanzure> http://2020science.org/2010/08/17/synthetic-biology-ethics-and-the-hacker-culture/
00:22 < fenn> shouldn't you be sleeping?
00:22  * fenn takes his own advice
00:26 < kanzure> wait
00:26 < kanzure> fenn: are you still around?
00:29  * fenn blinks
00:30 < kanzure> gah where is he
00:30 < kanzure> multi-people objective functions are so hard to solve for
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00:32 < kanzure> hi elevenarms 
00:32 < elevenarms> hey fenn
00:32 < fenn> hi
00:32 < kanzure> fenn: see pm
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01:48 < kanzure> and we're getting paid for this?
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08:42 < Utopiah> http://future-bnci.org/ (not sure that it actually has content...) http://bci.tugraz.at
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09:08 < kanzure> diybio needs bill nye
09:10 < kanzure> http://www.billnye.com/
09:19 < kanzure> ".. where one of his professors was Carl Sagan" well that explains it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye
09:27 < kanzure> oh boy yet another secret silo! http://groups.google.com/group/genspacenyc/
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09:34 < kanzure> hrm he was at ut last year in april. i even got the email :/
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09:52 < kanzure> techshop article .. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/business/11ping.html?_r=2
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10:03 < panax> hi kanzure
10:03 < kanzure> hello panax 
10:04 < panax> im reading your post on open cpus
10:04 < kanzure> yeah?
10:05 < panax> seems like fpga would be sufficient most of the time
10:05 < panax> though as far as open source asic magic is good
10:06 < panax> though i cant find too many designs freely available
10:07 < panax> it works, i use magic daily
10:07 < panax> but doesnt seem like theres much of a community around it besides professors
10:08 < kanzure> wait, is "asic magic" a program?
10:08 < panax> its cad software for vlsi design
10:08 < panax> http://opencircuitdesign.com/magic/
10:08 < kanzure> cool
10:09 < panax> it would be easy if people would make their designs available online
10:10 < panax> but noone does maybe its so old few people use it
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10:55 < kanzure> hi genehacker 
11:06 < kanzure> genehacker: how wast he sls/fab conference
11:06 < kanzure> *was
11:06 < kanzure> *the
11:06 < genehacker> NASA wants to use electron beam freeform fabrication on a large scale to make stiffeners for rocket tanks
11:07 < genehacker> the cornell guys have a machine parameter description language
11:07 < genehacker> it's xml based
11:08 < kanzure> was that the fab@home file format thingy you mentioned?
11:08 < genehacker> cornell guys have also managed to print food, as in real food, food that taste good
11:08 < kanzure> "supposedly better than stl"
11:08 < genehacker> stuff like cookies and meat
11:08 < genehacker> it's sort of like .stl
11:08 < kanzure> and it's parameters for operating a machine?
11:09 < genehacker> it's more like g-code though
11:09 < kanzure> cool when i google for "fab@home machine parameter description language" i get 
11:09 < kanzure> http://www.hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web
11:10 < kanzure> but it's not what i was looking for
11:11 < genehacker> hmmm... they haven't put it online yet
11:12 < genehacker> the cornell guys have also managed to print foam
11:13 < genehacker> El Paso is making 3d circuits
11:14 < genehacker> They also discovered that electron beam melting produces unique and possibly editable microstructures
11:15 < genehacker> which means if they manage to edit the microstructures, they'll change the design paradigm
11:16 < genehacker> someone's managed to get submillimeter position sensing with wiimotes
11:17 < fenn> link to machine parameter language?
11:18 < fenn> or at least some more keywords
11:19 < kanzure> fab@home
11:19 < kanzure> their ilk
11:20 < kanzure> fenn: i bet it's just an xml format for loading up some parameters to a fab@home device.. nothing spectacular
11:20 < kanzure> but if it's a gcode replacement then it could be as bad as "we replaced gcode syntax with xml syntax"
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11:20 < fenn> ok nevermind
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11:21 < kanzure> dave suggested if necessary we could just hire opencascade to not suck
11:21 < kanzure> dunno if i'd trust them though :)
11:21 < fenn> i'm over here thinking 'machine parameter' is stuff like maximum bed travel, stiffness, power, etc
11:25 < genehacker> speed and deposition rate mainly
11:25 < genehacker> they also have some path stuff in there too
11:25 < genehacker> it's possible to change the path algorithm real easily with it
11:26 < genehacker> also someone's making a microstereolithography system accurate to 1 micron with an off the shelf DLP projector for less than $300
11:27 < genehacker> but that's not in the proceedings...
11:29 < fenn> proceedings of the national academy of fab@home?
11:31 < genehacker> of the solid freeform fabrication symposium
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11:43 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor
11:43 < kanzure> "It was designed primarily as an air superiority fighter, but has additional capabilities that include ground attack, electronic warfare, and signals intelligence[5] roles."
11:43 < kanzure> electronic warfare?
11:43 < Utopiah> EMP?
11:45 < genehacker>  electronic warfare as in jamming radar
11:45 < genehacker> snooping, etc
11:46 < genehacker> also the next joint strike fighter might have SFF'd  components in it
11:46 < genehacker> because it's cheaper to make them that way
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11:49 < kanzure> i was wondering if it was just some lame way of saying they installed nmap on the raptor
12:02 < ybit> from what i can tell, iphone is way more popular than android-based phones, and android based phones are way more popular than maemo/meego phones
12:03 < ybit> kind of makes me feel like a bsd dev working on meego 
12:03 < genehacker> not nmap
12:04 < genehacker> more like FUCK YO MISSILE GUIDANCE
12:04 < phryk> what is meego? the maemo iterative?
12:05 < genehacker> sheesh haven't you guys read anything about tactile missiles?
12:06 < phryk> No, any recommendations?
12:07 < genehacker> the AIAA's book on tactile missile design is interesting
12:07 < genehacker> useful for rocket design stuff too
12:09 < ybit> phryk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meego
12:09 < phryk> heh
12:09 < ybit> whoops, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo
12:10 < phryk> ah yes right
12:10 < phryk> i was planning on getting an n900 next month or so
12:10 < phryk> anyone got a better recommendation?^^
12:10 < phryk> i mainly want to use it to browse and be in irc and do ssh stuff and shit like that
12:11 < phryk> so keys are a priority
12:11 < genehacker> are we talking smutphones?
12:12 < genehacker> I need to crack one
12:13 < phryk> yes i am talking smutfoenz
12:14 < phryk> currently i plan on gettin an n900 
12:14 < phryk> FOOOD
12:15 < fenn> neato song graph for automated remixing http://blog.echonest.com/post/597162554/earworm-and-capsule
12:15 < genehacker> the thing nokia's touting as a hacker phone?
12:15 < fenn> i think the n810 is supposedly the hacker phone
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12:17 < phryk> err
12:17 < fenn> meego just looks awful
12:17 < phryk> i wanted to say
12:17 < fenn> like they did it on purpose even
12:18 < fenn> like an iphone, but suck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meego-handset-launcher.png
12:18 < phryk> I plan on getting an n900 with hspa/edge/foo "flatrate" and use it for irc/ssh, browsing and other misc. stuff i do
12:18 < fenn> whoever drew that camera aperture icon should be fired
12:20 < phryk> Can't you configure around that so you get an actual list?
12:20 < fenn> yeah set xdm = qtopia in your xorg file
12:21 < fenn> isnt this nicer? http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3034/2806071451_dfdfcea082.jpg
12:22 < fenn> as list http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/e/e0/Qtopia005.png/240px-Qtopia005.png
12:22 < fenn> but whatever, i dont have a dog in this race
12:22 < phryk> heh
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12:42 < ybit> wow, $400 for each session you have with the rTMS here: http://www.psychiatry.uab.edu/patients/rtms/
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13:04 < ybit> fenn: did steve mann go over exactly how his latest setup works?
13:04 < ybit> it looks awesome
13:09 < jrayhawk> the n810 is not a phone
13:09 < jrayhawk> I think something better than the n900 is supposed to come out in late Q4, but I haven't heard much on that lately.
13:10 < fenn> ybit: he seemed more interested in talking about his hydraulaphone, unfortunately
13:11 < fenn> i got a pic of his old setup; the new version is just half of a myvu (literally hacksawed in half at the nose piece, with a camera pointing at the back of the myvu mirror (it has a 45 degree front surface mirror to reflect the image from the LCOS chip into your eye, which is perfect for an eyetap)
13:13 < kanzure> james clement claims that steve has somewhere on his website where he posts full videos of his daily activities
13:13 < kanzure> james also claims he found it once and saw a video clip of him and jata meeting with steve..
13:15 < jrayhawk> well, i guess the n810 can do VoIP and can be found with a 3G modem if you're careful.
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13:18 < fenn> probably on glogger.mobi
13:18 < fenn> his website is years of cruft piled up in a dense thicket though, there could be anything in there
13:18 < kanzure> sounds like heybryan.org
13:19 < kanzure> i like his tag cloud. http://glogger.mobi/
13:19 < kanzure> what's with the whole not using whitespaces in tags thing?
13:20 < ybit> paper request: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20521875 "Positive effects of repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation on attention in ADHD Subjects: a randomized controlled pilot study."
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13:20 < fenn> came from shitty interfaces that didnt understand quotes
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13:24 < fenn> iglogger features include "Emergency Alert and Monitoring System for autism or wandering individuals"
13:24 < fenn> seems like if they had an iphone you could just call them? maybe i'm biased
13:30 < ybit> i don't quite understand why he wears large goggles, maybe it's so the entire reflected image is visible?..
13:30 < fenn> large goggles" are just his prescription glasses i think
13:30 < fenn> unless you have a pic that shows otherwise
13:31 < ybit> i have no pic that shows otherwise :)
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13:32 < ybit> http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/under-surveillance/1253588.bin?size=620x400
13:32 < ybit> i just know no one, except him now, that has glasses that large
13:33 < fenn> that almost looks like vacuum formed acrylic
13:34 < ybit> whoops, those aren't his glasses, here they are http://www.glogger.mobi/userpub2.php?username=mann&i=2010_08_17_12_28_17_45127900
13:34 < ybit> and i guess they aren't that big compared to the last linked image
13:35 < fenn> have you seen me in there yet?
13:35 < ybit> not yet
13:36 < Utopiah> wow didn't know http://gnuplot.sourceforge.net/demo_canvas/ that's ... pretty trendy for an "old" GNU tool :-#
13:37 < fenn> pretty lame that his images aren't timestamped (uploaded 2010/8/17 is all we get?)
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13:38 < ybit> i want this http://www.jneuroengrehab.com/content/2/1/6EMG 
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13:39 < ybit> fenn: closest thing to it: http://glogger.mobi/u.php?u=mann
13:39 < ybit> it == timestamps
13:40 < fenn> i'm overall pretty disappointed in iglogger
13:40 < fenn> it's just a crapload of cellphone pictures
13:41 < fenn> who cares
13:43 < fenn> kanzure: stanley knutson on left http://glogger.mobi/userFunctions/imageResize/imageResizer.php?username=mann&prefix=2010_08_17_12_28_18_41559000&suffix=jpg&width=800&height=800&quality=85
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14:23 < kanzure> fenn: hey wait, i saw that guy
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14:27 < kanzure> the aadl workflow is weird
14:28 < kanzure> the final output is a distributed real-time app to run on some hardware set?
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15:05 < kanzure> a sysml mailing list is the last place i expect to find someone linking to c2.com
15:05 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/sysmlforum/msg/e1b4ef8838c7a180
15:10 < kanzure> QuantumG: what's "space packet protocol"?
15:10 < QuantumG> no idea
15:11 < QuantumG> my guess would be data transmission over packet radio configured for longer light times
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15:28 < kanzure> "# SysML is an open standard and supports XMI and ISO 10303-303 (AP233) allowing for information interchange to other systems engineering tools such as CAD, electrical and engineering-analysis tools."
15:30 < kanzure> according to wikipedia, ISO 10303-11 (not 21) is an example of something in the same class as sysml
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15:39 < kanzure> sysml criticsm http://archive.eiffel.com/doc/manuals/technology/bmarticles/uml/page.html
15:39 < kanzure> "Here you have to learn all this monstrous complexity just to build diagrams of a possible future system."
15:40 < kanzure> ".. and rectangles and diamonds and solid lines and dotted lines and solid ellipses and dotted ellipses and arrows of all kinds and keywords such as "const" and "sorted" (not to be confused with "ordered") and different semantics for a class depending on whether its name appears in roman or italics; but at least a programming language, even the worst of languages, is executable!"
15:40 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_UML
15:44 < kanzure> "Further evidence of the joke is provided by the frequent reference to "use cases" as a central element of the method. Back when "use case" was the buzzword of the Web-year I tried to understand what all the fuss was about, and had a hard time until I asked my grandfather, who explained it all to me: it's the new name for the top-down functional design of his adolescence."
15:44 < kanzure> "You look at what the system must do ("use cases"), and deduce the system architecture from that analysis. This is the exact opposite of object-oriented design, which consciously refuses to pay too much attention, during the early phases, to the main function or functions of the system, because they are so subject to change, because they reproduce the behavior of previous systems (those which we are trying to replace with a new system),"
15:44 < kanzure> "because they lead to early commitment to the order of operation (the most volatile aspect of the software), and because they focus on superficial properties of a system -- its interface to the rest of the world -- rather than its fundamental properties."
15:46 < QuantumG> uhh huh.  Some people are attuned to thinking about engineering problems from an ontology perspective and think that what you actually do with the concepts in the domain is irrelevant.
15:46 < kanzure> "Good software must be efficient -- oh, sorry, this is implementation-related, and we don't talk about implementation in polite company. (If UML addressed implementation it would have to address software issues; the good thing about bubbles and arrows, as opposed to programs, is that they never crash.)"
15:46 < QuantumG> at the other end of the spectrum you have people who are used to thinking about what must be done and never stop to define their terms.
15:46 < QuantumG> the good engineer is somewhere in the middle
15:49 < kanzure> Utopiah: i'm sorry, but this is insane.
15:49 < Utopiah> yep
15:49 < QuantumG> I have a friend of mine who has been saying "we should write this program together, we'd be rich!" and I keep saying to him "write down what you're talking about"
15:50 < QuantumG> getting domain knowledge out of experts remains like pulling teeth.
15:51 < kanzure> sorry, but uml and sysml doesn't facilitate, in any way, getting domain knowledge out of experts, at all
15:51 < kanzure> if anything it makes them type lots of CamelCaseCrap and point arrows at OtherCamelPoop
15:53 < QuantumG> it really doesn't matter how you write it down, or visualize it
15:53 < QuantumG> just that you do
15:54 < kanzure> have you even looked at sysml stuff? :P
15:55 < kanzure> check this out.. here's an attempt to model a telescope and active phasing experiment in sysml/uml
15:55 < kanzure> http://mbse.sysmod.de/documents/Cookbook.pdf
15:59 < QuantumG> doesn't look particularly helpful.
15:59 < kanzure> (that's my point)
16:00 < QuantumG> but, err, I can show you examples of webpages that are not particularly helpful, doesn't mean none exist that aren't.
16:03 < kanzure> i thought the point of this was to make stuff look helpful though.
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16:52 < QuantumG> http://quantumg.blogspot.com/2010/08/prospectors-skymap.html
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17:26 < kanzure> i seem to be in violation of rfc 1855: "Don't send large amounts of unsolicited information to people.
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17:38 < kanzure> hi JayDugger 
17:38 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 
17:39 < JayDugger> I haven't had even a single cup of coffee yet, and so my daily resurrection hasn't yet finished.
17:40 < fenn> "Mail should have a subject heading which reflects
17:40 < fenn> the content of the message"
17:40 < fenn> if only people followed that
17:40 < fenn> subject (no content)
17:44 < JayDugger> Amen to that, fenn.
17:44 < fenn> "in general, it's not possible to retrieve messages once you have sent them" - is there a mail delay feature that would wait an hour or whatever before sending so you can tack on the 6 things you forgot to say?
17:44 < JayDugger> Google mail has a delayed send.
17:45 < JayDugger> If you write the Subject after the body of an email, you can write a more accurate one sentence summary for the Subject.
17:45 < fenn> huh?
17:46 < JayDugger> If you write the Subject after the writing the content, instead of writing it before the content, then you'll probably write something that "reflects the content of the message."
17:47 < JayDugger> At least that works for me when I remember to do it.
17:47 < fenn> 'be sure you understand the implications of export restrictions when you post' - remember to read top secret document #58699 before writing ANY mail!!1
17:49 < kanzure> JayDugger: most email seems to be people replying to other messages, thus the subject line is pre-populated
17:50 < fenn> i'm thinking about buying a $100 backup battery which could be used for either 19V (laptop) or 5V usb
17:50 < JayDugger> That's true--but I've yet to see the Subject line in an un-editable state
17:50 < fenn> if i had more time i'd probably build one from scratch (assuming infinite time)
17:51 < fenn> i dont think my beagleboard system is going to be operational before burning man, and i can'tt run my laptop from usb
17:51 < JayDugger> Will you save time worth at least $100 to you by buying this battery?
17:51 < fenn> i dont have time to do it is the problem
17:52 < fenn> anyway i'd certainly spend more than 4 hours to build a 19V boost supply and battery management circuit
17:52 < fenn> but it'd be worth more than $100 to me and the rest of the world
17:53 < fenn> sth like this from 3.7V lithium http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/12vlaptopsupp.htm
17:53 < JayDugger> Spend the money and buy the part.
17:53 < fenn> le sigh
17:53 < JayDugger> I think I missed your point, fenn.
17:53 < fenn> i wish the beagleboard worked when i bought it, then i never would have gotten this laptop in the first place
17:54 < JayDugger> A working beagleboard would have substituted for the laptop?
17:54 < fenn> alternatively i could try stringing 5 li-po cells together in series
17:54 < fenn> yes
17:54 < fenn> well, no, not really
17:54 < fenn> fsvo "working"
17:55 < JayDugger> Ah.
17:56 < fenn> i just hate committing to spend money i haven't actually received yet, hence the whining
17:56 < JayDugger> That's not whining, that's just good sense.
17:57 < fenn> also, stereo microphones are way super duper overpriced
17:57 < JayDugger> The beagleboard  and stereo microphones go together in a project of yours?
17:58 < kanzure> JayDugger: how many cups have you had?
17:58 < JayDugger> Time for cup number two.
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17:59 < fenn> see i'm hesitating because an extra battery for my laptop is only $50, and they have the same watt-hour rating, but that battery wouldn't be usable with any other laptop
18:00 < fenn> trying to come up with a system where i dont have to buy special batteries for everything
18:00 < JayDugger> Right. Why buy a specialized product when a general solution exists?
18:01 < fenn> the specialized product costs 1/2 price and may work better (laptop knows its running off battery)
18:01 < JayDugger> Yeah, there is that.
18:01 < fenn> its just stupid that the laptops dont have an external battery port
18:01 < JayDugger> Inconvenient for the end user, but vendor lock-in benefits the sellers.
18:02 < fenn> sorta, you can buy generic batteries for every laptop
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18:05 < fenn> so i'm realizing that "li-po usb charger" should have been on my shopping/todo list a long time ago
18:10 < JayDugger> kanzure, BAA: Related project (via Strategy Page, Metamodern, & Global Guerillas)   http://tinyurl.com/2cpmd5n
18:10 < kanzure> JayDugger: yeah, i linked to that in here a few days ago. i liked that article.
18:11 < JayDugger> kanzure, BAA: Mobile Technology Complex / Mobile Parts Hospital ... never mind
18:11 < kanzure> "bottomless cargo container"
18:11 < fenn> whatever that means
18:11 < JayDugger> Yeah, Strategy Page has an ugly website, even with AdBlock.
18:11 < JayDugger> Oh, it's just hyperbole for a cargo container that can make parts.
18:11 < JayDugger> rather holds a machine shop.
18:13 < kanzure> but you got to that from BAA-10-86?
18:13 < JayDugger> No, I saw that on the 14th. It reminds me of BAA-10-86.
18:13 < jrayhawk> rfc1855: 'Never send chain letters via electronic mail. Chain letters are forbidden on the Internet. Your network privileges will be revoked. Notify your local system administrator if your ever receive one.'
18:13 < kanzure> "Chain letters are forbidden on the internet." <3
18:14 < kanzure> wait
18:14 < jrayhawk> somehow attempting to legislate the internet seems less embarassing from an RFC than from law
18:14 < kanzure> hahah
18:14 < kanzure> no what's worse is that you should send the chain letter on to your sysadmin
18:14 < jrayhawk> no
18:14 < jrayhawk> fuck you
18:14 < kanzure> "when you perpetuate the chain letter, just be sure to also send it to your sysadmin"
18:14 < kanzure> hahah
18:15 < JayDugger> http://www.cleggind.com/specialstructures/mobilepartsmachineshop.htm
18:15 < JayDugger> and in PDF, http://www.cleggind.com/50_Moving_Technology_Forward.doc.pdf
18:15 < kanzure> "7-ton Mazak Lathe" is that honestly necessary?
18:16 < fenn> neat, http://www.instructables.com/id/Heavy-duty-portable-charger-for-usb-devices-phone/step2/The-circuit-overview/
18:16 < JayDugger> Clegg Industries out of "808  Bobwhite Road  .  Victoria, TX 77905"
18:16 < fenn> except for the PIC, that's lame
18:16 < JayDugger> Sounds good, doesn't it?
18:17 < jrayhawk> rfc1855 should us more traditional RFC language, like MUST and SHOULD
18:17 < kanzure> "In the 27,000 pound mobile mini-manufacturing center is a Mazak Integrex 100Y machining center tooled with Valenite VM Modular Tooling. Included in the standard package are (10) different sizes of OD turning VM 63 tools, (4) different sizes of grooving and cutoff tools, (9) different end mill adapters, (8) different turning adapters, (4) different ID boring VM63 tools, (5) different boring bar adapters, (3) different shell mill adapters, (8) differ
18:17 < jrayhawk> also lots of ascii diagrams
18:17 < kanzure> http://www.cleggind.com/specialstructures/valenite.htm
18:18 < JayDugger> Surely they've a local design buffer, and don't get all of it via satellite...
18:18 < fenn> [______________]  <- clue-by-four
18:18 < JayDugger> Heh.
18:19 < kanzure> all the rfc1855 pages i find via google suck
18:19 < kanzure> this looks better: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
18:19 < JayDugger> fenn, kanzure: I invited you both to the marked-up copy of the BAA.
18:19 < kanzure> JayDugger: yeah i have the link around here..
18:19 < kanzure> https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1rh_AC_wBhIYw7pcV9vPcxGMSG0jw2Grht3Y_ZEOF1j4&hl=en#
18:20 < JayDugger> That looks right.
18:20 < kanzure> wait, no
18:20 < kanzure> https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1xb-ttVVyvZJ6TAA9W1-ZlCkZ0MutD-ORL9KxtRQkqMI&hl=en&authkey=CJzf5r8N
18:20 < kanzure> there we go
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18:20 < JayDugger> Can your robot arm do this? http://www.robotspodcast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=928
18:21 < kanzure> JayDugger: chances are we're going to be using a prime contractor in DC
18:21 < kanzure> so that wheel is already in motion
18:22 < kanzure> "Restrictive notices notwithstanding, proposals may be handled, for administrative purposes only, by a support contractor." heh i didn't see that line originally
18:23 < JayDugger> Many eyes, shallow bugs, so to speak
18:24 < JayDugger> BAA: Summary of the costs of the proposed research, including total base cost, estimates of base cost in each year of the effort, estimates of itemized options in each year of the effort, and cost sharing if relevant; 
18:24 < kanzure> but yeah, it's pretty clear they want access control restrictions on specific revision control repositories, especially for ITAR guidelines
18:25 < JayDugger> Right.
18:25 < kanzure> and that seems reasonable enough, although i don't know how they typically implement ITAR restrictions when it comes to development/engineering/programming
18:25 < fenn> any suggestions on making battery packs from cellphone batts? i was thinking of tearing apart power supply connectors for the plated spring copper electrodes, then embedding the whole pile in shapelock (plastic goo)
18:25 < kanzure> (no digital records? only dead tree format? who knows)
18:26 < fenn> the issue being how to get power out of the battery once you've charged it in a wall charger
18:26 < JayDugger> Anecdote: a co-worker came to my employer from LM's F-35 plant. He claims they took ITAR just as seriously as security clearances.
18:26 < JayDugger> Fenn: no idea. I've considered similar projects, but ended up buying batteries instead.
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18:27 < JayDugger> BAA: No human or animal use in this project, so that's one less problem.
18:27 < fenn> baaaa
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18:29 < JayDugger> BAA: Ask the support/prime contractor to handle the proposal documentation. If you have to do it with them, see if they have templates for the Word, PowerPoint, and PDF documents.
18:29 < kanzure> yep
18:29 < kanzure> that's in motion
18:29 < kanzure> telecon with 'em on the 23rd
18:29 < JayDugger> BAA: Good.
18:30 < JayDugger> BAA: See if they've worked examples for similar successful projects, if you can't assign the whole proposal work load to them.
18:31 < kanzure> nah, we don't want them to make up crap that we're not going to be doing
18:31 < kanzure> but yeah..
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18:32 < kanzure> i'm really tempted to suggest we throw something together for META-2 as well
18:32 < kanzure> under "technical area three"- they are basically asking for the development of a component library or hardware repository
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18:32 < kanzure> and frankly they have enough funding attached to this project
18:32 < kanzure> so if it would take a few million dollars to go find some experts and sit down with them to develop the hardware packages, then that would be doable
18:33 < JayDugger> BAA: 2.6 Personnel, Qualifications, and Commitments--If you pay them, prove the credentials and contributions.
18:33 < JayDugger> s/the/their/
18:33 < JayDugger> Well...the same program manager handles META and vehicleforge.mil, accoring to his LinkedIn profile.
18:34 < JayDugger> And if the two duplicate effort, you might end up working on it de facto if not de jure.
18:34 < fenn> wow, $1.80 per 2800mAh 18650 cell
18:34 < JayDugger> That said, I don't know if those BAAs remain open.
18:34 < kanzure> the forge is an opportunity to grow the part library too if i execute it well enough. so there's always that.
18:35 < kanzure> but since they crank out proposals it might be beneficial to aim for it?
18:35 < fenn> oh nm that's an active auction, not buy-it-now
18:35 < JayDugger> If they do, check with the prime/support contractor about whether the extra effort seems practical.
18:36 < kanzure> fenn: how would you build a hardware repository if you had a few million dollars
18:36 < JayDugger> They should have experienced professional judgment for that call, and if not, why use them?
18:36 < kanzure> or a component library or whatever you call it
18:36 < kanzure> incentives/prizes? hiring someone to just tell you what you need to know?
18:37 < fenn> his is a pretty sweet deal on 18650's too: http://search.ebay.com/390226818389
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18:37 < fenn> kanzure: first of all there are large repositories of freely available "stuff" in various cad formats
18:38 < fenn> i would pay people to convert all that stuff, (using scripts) into the same format
18:38 < fenn> then take a look at it and see what's there, what we need to cover a decent working set
18:38 < JayDugger> BAA: 2.7 Schedule and Milestones--Program Management by pretty picture...best left to a professional who can judge what will convince the audience. I.e., NOT the engineers. (no offense)
18:38 < kanzure> gantt charts probably
18:38 < fenn> also i'd negotiate with mcmaster for usage rights to their catalog
18:39 < kanzure> ooh mcmaster negotiations
18:39 < kanzure> or we could just scrape their data (primarily the parameters)?
18:39 < fenn> they have cad models too
18:39 < fenn> i dont know how representative the cad data is wrt the exact parameters
18:39 < katsmeow-afk> speaking of such, i am scraping digikey atm, if anyone needs such data
18:39 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: octopart.com has that sorta scraped data, i thought
18:39 < fenn> also there is a photo, which is more informative than a cad model sometimes
18:40 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: but yes i'd like to take a look at it
18:40 < JayDugger> Yeah, but think of the slides at hardware presentations..."Gadget X at TRL Z by YYYY!" I suspect they want a certain amount of PowerPoint porn here.
18:40 < katsmeow-afk> kanzure, it's arranged differently
18:40 < JayDugger> I Am Not A Program Manager (IANAPM)
18:41 < JayDugger> BAA: 2.8 Statement of Work (SOW) This matters a lot. Make sure it meets the spirit and preferably the letter of the BAA.
18:41 < katsmeow-afk> kanzure , looking at http://octopart.com/parts/category--memory--ram/search?c=4297, i get more data outside the pdf from digikey
18:42 < JayDugger> BRB.
18:42 < kanzure> fenn: well, other than models, there's also the issue of basic equations (even simple stuff like hooke's law) and presumably that's not systematically documented and attached to components anywhere
18:42 < katsmeow-afk> octopart.com:
18:42 < katsmeow-afk> Vishay  -  IRFPE50PBF datasheet: pdf  
18:42 < katsmeow-afk> mosfet, n, 800v, 7.8a, to-247ac; transistor type:mosfet;...
18:42 < katsmeow-afk> [20:42] <katsmeow-afk> tiggr, define IRFPE50PBF 
18:42 < katsmeow-afk> [20:42] <TiggrBot>  IRFPE50PBF : MOSFET N-CH 800V 7.8A TO-247AC ; Vishay/Siliconix ; MOSFET N-Channel, Metal Oxide ; Standard ; 1.2 Ohm @ 4.7A, 10V ; 800V ; 7.8A ; 4V @ 250uA ; 200nC @ 10V ; 3100pF @ 25V ; 190W ; Through Hole
18:43 < kanzure> octopart has to deal with a lot of really terrible data
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18:43 < kanzure> in case i wasn't clear, i'd really like to see the data you've scraped
18:44 < katsmeow-afk> i just gave you a line
18:44 < kanzure> i think we're having a communication error again...
18:44 < katsmeow-afk> i have it in html tables as well
18:45 < fenn> do you know what those fields correspond to?
18:45 < kanzure> you mean values :)
18:45 < katsmeow-afk> today, i added 14,857 unique mosfet part numbers, in what way would you like to see how much of what part ?
18:45 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, yeas
18:45 < katsmeow-afk> i abbreviated the data a bit too much , even for irc, i can add tags for each data item back in
18:46 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: i'd like them sorted by wattage per price
18:46 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, you would
18:46 < katsmeow-afk> oddly, i can do that, but not set up for that atm
18:46 < JayDugger> BAA: 3. Cost This  also matters, since it has no page limit. I lack experience to make  suggestions. Best left to the prime/support contractor. 
18:46 < fenn> my main beef with digikey is not being able to sort by price
18:47 < kanzure> JayDugger: at least three (maybe four) full-time developers 
18:47 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, i was setting the data up for irc, i an guessing you want another format
18:47 < kanzure> "full-time"
18:47 < fenn> yeah irc is not the best databse query result format
18:47 < ybit> ping
18:47 < kanzure> pong
18:48 < katsmeow-afk> pingles
18:48 < ybit> pongles
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18:48 < kanzure> dongles
18:48 < katsmeow-afk> found that out the hard way one nite, someone asked Tiggr for a ton of data, she got klined
18:49 < JayDugger> BAA: The acceptance/rejection notice will arrive by snail mail to the mailing address of the Technical Point of Contact. Make sure that address has reliable delivery, and see if DARPA will do registered mail.
18:50 -!- any01751249 [~someone@75-120-32-216.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:50 < any01751249> erg
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18:51 < JayDugger> BAA: VI. B. 1. Meeting and Travel Requirements: Dog and pony shows at DARPA's option? Does this happen, or do they just keep the option open? Ask Dave and the support/prime.
18:52 < kanzure> the prime is in dc for a reason
18:52 < kanzure> basically i'm willing to go to dc once or twice, but that's it. they'll know this.
18:53 < JayDugger> BAA: "DARPA may elect to award other award instruments due to the need to apply publication or other restrictions." I doubt this will happen, given the stated open source licensing goal, but it does lie in the fine print.
18:55 < JayDugger> BAA:"There  shall be no dissemination or publication, ... without prior written approval of DARPA's Public Release Center  (DARPA/PRC)." I doubt you'll have any restrictions, but see if you can get a copy of  DARPA/PRC process, and ask Dave & prime/support how this works. 
18:57 < JayDugger> BAA: Get and read a copy of DoD Instruction 5230.27. Then ask Dave & prime/support.
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18:58 < JayDugger> BAA: I think the CFR, USC, and Executive Orders all live on-line and have search indexes.
18:58 < JayDugger> Consider reading everything first.
18:58 < JayDugger> That's probably overkill, but it would help me sleep nights in your position.
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19:02 < JayDugger> BAA: Does vehicleforge.mil have to work with a screen reader, as suggested by VI.B.7? I suspect that's a purely formal requirement, but I do not know so.
19:03 < JayDugger> BAA: Add "DARPA-BAA-10-86@darpa.mil" to your address book.
19:03 < kanzure> meh i have some experience making screen-reader-compatible websites before anyway
19:04 < JayDugger> I hope it won't really prove important. Again, ask those who know.
19:05 < JayDugger> BAA: Ask Dave & prime/support--what's DFARS 252.227-7017?
19:05 < kanzure> elevenarms won't know.
19:05 < JayDugger> BAA: DFARS 252.227-7017 from VIII.A.1.a
19:05 < JayDugger> That's why you've a prime.
19:06 < kanzure> http://farsite.hill.af.mil/reghtml/regs/far2afmcfars/fardfars/dfars/dfars252_227.htm#P1104_82981
19:06 < JayDugger> Awesome. That's a good site to bookmark.
19:09 < JayDugger> BAA: "Anticipated individual awards- Multiple awards are anticipated" Does DARPA plan to fund multiple teams?
19:09 < kanzure> JayDugger: emailed you my bookmarks related to this..
19:10 < kanzure> yes
19:10 < fenn> i think that means they don't give out the money in one lump sum
19:10 < kanzure> that's why i'm pondering META-2..
19:10 < kanzure> yes but they also fund multiple offerors
19:10 < kanzure> i mean, do you really think they'd spend $9M on 12 months of development effort?
19:11 < fenn> no
19:11 < JayDugger> Oh, yeah, sure...
19:11 < kanzure> me either.
19:11 < JayDugger> that's not much money.
19:11 < kanzure> what?
19:11 < kanzure> are you kidding?
19:11 < JayDugger> For sufficiently federal values of "much."
19:12 < JayDugger> DoD will spend $50,000 per round for artillery shells, after all.
19:12 < fenn> there are expected salary ranges; i don't think they will fund >10x what an academic gets paid
19:12 < JayDugger> Different pot of money, but all the same department, and some bureaucracies keep score by budget size.
19:12 < JayDugger> Good point, fenn. They also want working hardware.
19:13 < JayDugger> See II.1.13.
19:13 < fenn> hardware, software, the difference is people feel ok blowing millions on one but not the other
19:13  * fenn grunts
19:14 < JayDugger> BAA: You can fork existing code forge code bases, if you watch the licensing.
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19:14 < kanzure> yes that's right
19:14 < kanzure> gitorious is one option, but i think it sucks
19:15 < fenn> btw quirky.com looked intriguing
19:15 < kanzure> piny/ikiwiki/git might be interesting. lots of options available.
19:15 < JayDugger> Have y'all thought about the three-year support requirement?
19:15 < kanzure> yes
19:15 < fenn> getting paid wads of cash for three years isn't a bad deal
19:16 < kanzure> well there's also the possibility of a third party support system (which dave and i have outlined if necessary)
19:16 < JayDugger> Yeah, and I yet think asking ESR about extracting data from code forges makes sense. He's the only person I've heard of working on that problem. No doubt others exist, though.
19:16 < kanzure> what?
19:16 < JayDugger> Yeah...did you think about hiring that out? Do you really want to do tech support for the next three years?
19:16 < kanzure> i'm sorry, but there's shitloads of people working on web-exposed revision control systems
19:16 < fenn> that's a stupid problem.. contact admin, database dump to distributed revision control, done as far as i'm concerned
19:17 < JayDugger> That doesn't surprise me. I don't follow that problem.
19:17 < kanzure> that's why i'm making the dev team ;)
19:17 < JayDugger> I don't think it's quite so easy as that, but I admit I've not tried.
19:17 < fenn> esr was scraping the data, which seems like a horrible thing in this day and age
19:17 < JayDugger> I.e., near-total ignorance on my part.
19:17 < fenn> from an open source host
19:17 < fenn> guh
19:17 < kanzure> really?
19:17 < kanzure> surely you're lying fenn
19:18 < fenn> yes
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19:18 < fenn> i'm just making shit up actually
19:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk: where's the everyone loves eric raymond link
19:18 < JayDugger> No, he ended up doing that, per his blogging, anyway.
19:18 < JayDugger> I assumed he had good reason, but lack competence to judge it.
19:18 < kanzure> anyway
19:19 < JayDugger> Yeah, I need to prepare soon for work.
19:19 < fenn> does ikiwiki not suck yet?
19:19 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ping
19:19 < JayDugger> I'll work more on this tomorrow.
19:20 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
19:20 < kanzure> good night
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19:20 < fenn> in other news, i redid my lifelog parser with pyparsing
19:21 < kanzure> was it painful
19:21 < fenn> stuck on something, not sure why it doesnt work right
19:21 < kanzure> apparently the pyparsing guy lives in austin
19:21 < jrayhawk> eric raymond rarely has good reason for anything
19:21 < kanzure> breathing?
19:21 < fenn> it didnt work at all for the longest time, then something clicked and i realized i had to use Group() to make a tree
19:21 < jrayhawk> haha
19:22 < jrayhawk> JayDugger could really use a persistent client.
19:22 < kanzure> agreed
19:22 -!- shepazu [~schepers@adsl-69-160-57.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:22 < kanzure> hi shepazu 
19:22 < fenn> so could any************
19:23 < fenn> but it is allergic to unix, or something
19:23 < kanzure> JayDugger is supposedly a debian user
19:23 < kanzure> jrayhawk: fenn was wondering if ikiwiki has got rid of the suck yet
19:23 < jrayhawk> He'll have to define the suck first, but I doubt it.
19:23 < kanzure> i don't know what to tell him
19:24 < kanzure> frankly ikiwiki has been much better for me ever since i didn't have to install it :)
19:24 < fenn> heh
19:24 < jrayhawk> Yeah, that really is the biggest issue.
19:24 < kanzure> (thanks btw)
19:24 < jrayhawk> Joey has an actual hosting service called 'branchable', now, if ever you decide you hate Piny.
19:25 < kanzure> this sounds way too web2.0 for a debian developer to be involved in
19:25 < kanzure> "branchable"
19:25 < fenn> branch.ly
19:25 < kanzure> ugh
19:26 < jrayhawk> Speaking of dubious trends, there's a mediocre WYSIWYGish interface for Markdown Ikiwiki partially provisions for.
19:27 < kanzure> i wonder how he got branchable.com
19:27 < jrayhawk> http://wmd-editor.com/examples/splitscreen
19:27 < kanzure> huh.
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19:35 < jrayhawk> http://www.branchable.com/news/free_hosting_for_Free_Software/ is important, i guess
19:35 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk
19:37 < kanzure> "Hey Bryan, I think your website is down. I was gonna show someone." - Amy
19:37 < kanzure> where does this come from
19:37 < kanzure> who the hell is amy
19:40 < kanzure> "Under the BAA/PRDA method, multiple awards are generally made based on the quality of the proposals and availability of funding.  Occasionally, the AF may be interested in buying only a certain portion (or portions) of a proposal.  The BAA/PRDA method provides the flexibility to make an award for only those portions or tasks of the proposal that are of interest to the Government."
19:40 < kanzure> "You will be notified in writing if the Government intends on making an award based on your proposal.  The notification will indicate if all or only portions of your proposal will be included in the award."
19:40 < kanzure> ok yeah, multiple award recipients
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21:43 < kanzure> "Henry Markram thinks he can do it by 2018. He's probably right."
21:43 < kanzure> "If he gets the funding."
21:43 < kanzure> "Funny thing, life. I just spent the weekend in Reno with my sweetie Shelly, who's considering moving there to do her doctorate with him working on the Blue Brain project. The catch?"
21:43 < kanzure> "He's so desperately underfunded that he can't even afford to fund her (or any of his other grad students, for that matter). And now that he's alienated IBM by calling them on what he describes as a false and misleading claim to have modeled a cat's brain, he doesn't have access to their funding or use of their Blue Gene supercomputer any more."
21:43 < kanzure> "This is the field that Shelly's been working in for the past few years, and she says it's not even a matter of time 'til we can simulate a human brain in a computer; at this point, it's merely a matter of money."
21:43 < kanzure> "Kurzweil claimed that computational brain modeling problem that hundreds of thousands of scientists are working. In reality, the number is more like seven, all of them desperately underfunded, and all of them scraping and struggling to get together as much money as a typical university spends in a month on its football program.
21:44 < kanzure> i laughed :)
21:44 < kanzure> i guess that would be the result of calling them out on the cat simulation
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21:58 < QuantumG> nice.  btw, when has Kurzweil said thousands of scientists?
21:58 < QuantumG> cause that's a good time to say "cool, can you name 10 for me?
21:59 < kanzure> it's very much a matter of throwing money at the right people
21:59 < kanzure> a few million dollars to marvin minsky isn't going to get you the neurophysiology simulations of markram (in NEURON or whatever else)
21:59 < QuantumG> as is everything in life
22:00 < kanzure> well what's weird is that the neurophysiology stuff was going on back in the 70s too.. about the time of a lot of the ai research
22:00 < QuantumG> but, to be honest, only this year have I heard anyone describe reverse engineering a brain in terms of actual numbers of man hours using technique x, y, z
22:01 < kanzure> i've been seeing hard numbers since at least 2008..
22:01 < QuantumG> well, the video I saw may have been from that era
22:01 < QuantumG> so yeah
22:01 < kanzure> when was the ieee spectrum article?
22:02 < kanzure> http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/ethics/reverse-engineering-the-brain
22:02 < kanzure> cool, june 2008.. 
22:02 < kanzure> thanks confirmation bias!
22:02 < QuantumG> nice :)
22:02 < QuantumG> so yeah, saying "what's happened in the last two years?" would be reasonable
22:02 < kanzure> markram has gained more publicity (and apparently lost his funding)
22:03 < kanzure> a few new versions of NEURON have been released
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23:18 < kanzure> opennurbs/swig is compiling again (now without errors)
23:19 < kanzure> the trick is that %ignore can be used with Namespace::MethodName without specifying all of the ridiculous pointer/const/const pointer combinations 
23:19 < kanzure> %ignore Class::MethodName; // etc.
23:43 < kanzure> "They tried that in Ontario, Canada, in the 1990's. Mike Harris pushed through legislation to cut welfare benefits to those who were not participating in workfare projects. One million unemployed people formed a mob outside the parliament (legislative) buildings, arguing that having to work for a living was slavery."
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 19 00:00:17 2010