--- Log opened Mon Sep 06 00:00:17 2010
00:01 < kanzure> i guess i should feed my word lists into http://domai.nr/ eventually
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01:01 < jrayhawk> I probably won't have time to deal with that cron thing until tomorrow night, but GIT_DIR=/srv/git/reprap.git, git-ls-tree master, and git-archive --format=zip are probably the building blocks to do it with.
01:01 < jrayhawk> If you or jmil decide to do it yourselves
02:09 < kanzure> bp "operation fuck the gulf" command center http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/100722/GAL-10Jul22-5223/media/PHO-10Jul22-239820.jpg
02:11 < kanzure> cern control room http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/images06/ControlRoom.jpg
02:11 < kanzure> <3 
02:11 < kanzure> http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/09/05/1623224/Ideas-For-a-Great-Control-Room
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05:42 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
06:01 < nsh> sup
06:02 < JayDugger> Thee, me, and few else it seems.
06:02 < nsh> and prepending a 'whas', instead of a 'whos' to my question?
06:03  * nsh is thinking about quantum information theory
06:03 < nsh> or at least, trying to understand it
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09:41 < kanzure> i wonder how i can sucker matt into this darpa thing
09:41 < JayDugger> Flattery?
09:41 < kanzure> yes but what would his role be?
09:41 < kanzure> i guess he still does lots of programming
09:41 < JayDugger> What do you need done?
09:42 < kanzure> previously he was my professor/advisor on a very similar project
09:42 < kanzure> and now it would be more like working as equals
09:42 < JayDugger> Or, does he count as one of the best possible people you can get?
09:42 < kanzure> not *best possible* but certainly very valuable and wortwhile
09:42 < JayDugger> That probably seems stranger to you than it does to him.
09:42 < kanzure> *worthwhile
09:42 < JayDugger> No offense, but that weirdness fades with age.
09:43 < kanzure> i doubt my weirdness will ever fade
09:43 < kanzure> :)
09:43 < kanzure> "until it becomes a wet stain on the collar of a crinkled, hung-up t-shirt"
09:43 < JayDugger> Nice wordplay on the vague reference. I meant the oddity of worked with a former professor as a peer.
09:44 < kanzure> yeah i know
09:44 < JayDugger> You know him better than I do, which is to say >0
09:44 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~campbell/
09:48 < kanzure> http://goertzel.org/+ville.pdf
09:50 < kanzure> http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~mems/projects/memsyn/nodasv1_4/ Nodal Design of Actuators and Sensors: Nodasv1.4 
09:51 < kanzure> "NODASv1.4 is a library of parameterized components for using SABER nodal simulator to simulate surface-micromachined MEMS devices. The library is composed of beams, plate masses, anchors, electrostatic comb drives (vertical and horizontal), and electrostatic gaps(horizontal). The components can be interconnected to represent both devices and more complex systems."
09:53 < Utopiah> http://mechanistician.blogspot.com
09:54 < kanzure> i read that as "mechanistan" and was about to make a lot of really awful jokes
09:54 < JayDugger> Easy...
09:54 < kanzure> hehe
09:54 < kanzure> JayDugger: how are you?
09:57 < JayDugger> Save it for a sci-fi convention, where jokes can anger every steampunk cosplayer in attendance.
09:57 < JayDugger> such jokes, rather.
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10:46 < kanzure> jrayhawk: if i wanted to clone some of these http://git.salome-platform.org/gitweb/ is there an easy way to get cgit and gitd to understand that /srv/git/salome/ is not a repo but a path of related repos?
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11:04 < kanzure> ooh yandex has improved a bit http://yandex.com/
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12:45 < jrayhawk> path of related repos...?
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13:04 < Utopiah> Blender@Tufts http://ocw.tufts.edu/Course/57 (bit disappointing, no video :-#
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13:42 < kanzure> jrayhawk: basically i'm asking if i can do nested folders without screwing up ikiwiki/cgit/gitd
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14:05 < jrayhawk> I don't know if cgit or gitweb support listings for submodules, but at worst you'd have to manually specify them in a configuration files.
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14:14 < jrayhawk> I'll put object/article disagreements in my sentences if i want to. You can't stop me.
14:24 < jrayhawk> If you're curious about those BP control center displays, by the way, http://www.planarcontrolroom.com/
14:25 < jrayhawk> formerly clarity visual
14:25 < kanzure> that slashdot article yesterday had some killer comments about control rooms
14:25 < jrayhawk> video walls are novelty toys for departments with overinflated budgets
14:26 < kanzure> i've been wanting a giant lever to pull when i'm done writing an email (to send it)
14:26 < jrayhawk> that said clarity/planar does have some badass hardware
14:26 < kanzure> maybe with sirens/alarms that start going off as it uploads (we'll act like we're back on N-baud)
14:31 < jrayhawk> CERN's reminds me of my room
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16:50 < jmil> kanzure: try to make each one a git submodule
16:51 < jmil> quoting kanzure: if i wanted to clone some of these http://git.salome-platform.org/gitweb/ is there an easy way to get cgit and gitd to understand that /srv/git/salome/ is not a repo but a path of related repos?
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16:54 < genehacker> kanzure do you have an ironman suit directory on your website?
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16:55 < kanzure> no, i guess not (wtf)
16:55 < kanzure> superkuh: how about you?
16:55 < kanzure> genehacker: http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/001-Powered%20Exoskeletons/
16:56 < superkuh> My exoskeleton directory has been inactive since 2006 for the most part.
16:56 < kanzure> man, we're lame
16:56 < superkuh> Only a bit new in there about HULC.
16:56 < kanzure> did you ever have some thoughts or leads on a reasonable power supply?
16:57 < superkuh> For a powered exoskeleton? I always thought Berkley's early efforts with silver catalysts and hydrogen peroxide were the most energy dense you could get.
16:57 < superkuh> I don't know about reasonable power supplies.
16:57 < kanzure> fenn has been using cell phone batteries (just for his wearable computer stuff for now)
17:00 < genehacker> hahahaha
17:00 < genehacker> hydrogen peroxide has a shitty energy density
17:00 < genehacker> it has an AWESOME power density though
17:01 < genehacker> lockheed hulc has a fuel cell option which has an awesome energy density
17:02 < genehacker> fuel cells are so awesome because they're more efficient than heat engines
17:02 < kanzure> this is for your senior project right?
17:02 < superkuh> H202 actuators can do ~2000kJ/kg.
17:03 < genehacker> yeah
17:03 < superkuh> And that is with 70%.
17:03 < genehacker> H2O2 actuators may not be cut out for what we want to accomplish
17:05 < genehacker> damn you really make a case there superkuh
17:06 < genehacker> it's just that carrying a tank of high test peroxide on one's back into a combat zone probably isn't a good idea
17:07 < superkuh> 7kg for a 24hours at 100+ watts. It is a small tank.
17:08 < superkuh> It *is* noisy.
17:08 < genehacker> yeah yeah, but that's where some stuff we have here comes into play
17:09 < kanzure> who is "we"
17:09 < kanzure> are you on a team for your project
17:09 < genehacker> UT mechanical engineering department
17:09 < genehacker> yeah
17:10 < kanzure> if i find you someone who has an exoskeleton already designed, would you be willing to work on the project? (it's ok to say no)
17:10 < kanzure> the advantage of this is that you might get to play with some really cool shit that would take you a while to make on your own
17:12 < kanzure> the downside is that you probably wouldn't be allowed to talk about it :P
17:13 < genehacker> we may not make an exoskeleton
17:13 < genehacker> an exoskeleton is one of the possible solutionos
17:13 < genehacker> who might that be?
17:14 < kanzure> some government contractors here and there.. nothing definite but i could "investigate"
17:14 < kanzure> i don't know any of the sarcos people but maybe them?
17:14 < genehacker> please not sarcos
17:14 < genehacker> anything but sarcos
17:14 < kanzure> yeah ok
17:15 < genehacker> we've got funding here, and it's part of a competition too
17:15 < kanzure> boston dynamics
17:15 < kanzure> orly? care to spill the beans? :)
17:18 < genehacker> our goal is to beat A&M
17:22 < kanzure> that's a low goal :)
17:22 < kanzure> (kidding)
17:24 < genehacker> I don't want to divulge too much information about it in case some A&M spies are listening
17:25 < jmil> A&M spy reporting for duty sir
17:25 < jmil> oh crap!
17:26 < genehacker> ok I'll tell you this though, the airforce wants it to be able to fly to some degree
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17:57 < JayDugger> Seriously, genehacker?
17:58 < JayDugger> That conjures all kinds of weird imaginary hardware.
18:00 < kanzure> jetpacks!
18:00 < kanzure> catapults!
18:00 < kanzure> ok, definitely catapults
18:01 < JayDugger> I thought of Heinlein's Starship Troopers, but he said USAF vice USMC.
18:02 < JayDugger> Then I thought of the VZ-1 Pawnee (http://www.hiller.org/flying-platform.shtml), but he said USAF, not US Army.
18:04 < katsmeow-afk> funny, i just figured out today how to make a robot shoulder with three 200degree axis, 4000 inch-lbs torque on each axis, 1/2 sec end-to-end rotation
18:04 < JayDugger> Still, it matches up nicely with some of the good old-fashioned illustrations in my Dandridge Cole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandridge_M._Cole) book (title escapes memory's grasp).
18:06 < genehacker> how katsmeow-afk?
18:07 < katsmeow-afk> :-)
18:07 < joshcryer> What are we building catapults for!
18:07 < JayDugger> A flying platform, with mechanical arms, perhaps hanging from the underside, a ball turret for optical sensors, conformal AESA, and some of those new Hellfire II missiles.
18:07 < joshcryer> I want one.
18:07 < genehacker> some weird sort of gearing system connected to powerful motor?
18:08 < JayDugger> There you go. No doubt USAF would buy one of those!
18:09 < kanzure> USAF wants one of everything anyway
18:10 < JayDugger> Not really.
18:10 < katsmeow-afk> gene, no, i could not figure out how to cram that much electric motor into the space, nor the fluid lines for that much hydraulics, and weight(inertia) was a huge problem
18:10 < JayDugger> They want MORE F-22s and F-35s.
18:11 < JayDugger> And a B-3.
18:11 < JayDugger> anyway...that lies far off topic.
18:12 < genehacker> well I don't need a robot shoulder
18:14 < katsmeow-afk> someone mentioned exoskeleton
18:21 < joshcryer> Eh, I think drones are better.
18:21 < joshcryer> Eg, like those in I, Robot.
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18:36 < kanzure> hahah bugzilla reporting its own vulnerability bugs
18:36 < kanzure> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108812#c0
18:36 < kanzure> i wish someone would have posted as root after that "ignore that, not a bug"
18:40 < JayDugger> I find it annoying how often Matlab gets used for Instructables of interest.
18:40 < JayDugger> And other projects too, for that matter.
18:41 < JayDugger> I wonder how well Octave works with Matlab scripts.
18:41 < kanzure> unofficially, they wanted complete compatibility IIRC?
18:42 < JayDugger> Yes, but why then does anyone bother buying Matlab?
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18:42 < JayDugger> I suspect it doesn't work so well as all that.
18:42 < JayDugger> Open Office opens Microsoft Word pretty well, but the differences exist and they sometimes matter.
18:43 < JayDugger> Ignoring the fact Word's junk and Matlab's not, of course. :)
18:43 < jmil> use latex
18:43 < jmil> flawless
18:44 < QuantumG> at least it aint Mathematica
18:44 < JayDugger> No thanks, I don't need to print or typeset, just to avoid buying an expensive piece of software.
18:44 < JayDugger> Point taken.
18:44 < genehacker> octave works with matlab scripts?
18:45 < genehacker> matlab is nice
18:45 < JayDugger> I've no direct experience with either one.
18:45 < genehacker> it's easy to get experience in matlab
18:46 < kanzure> JayDugger: most people do not directly buy matlab
18:46 < kanzure> universities already have subscriptions or site licenses etc.
18:46 < JayDugger> Yes, that's true. So does my previous employer.
18:47 < JayDugger> "GNU Octave is a high-level language,... that is mostly compatible with MATLAB."
18:48 < JayDugger> http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/FAQ.html#MATLAB-compatibility
18:49 < superkuh> "mostly compatible" = you spend 45 minutes translating idiosyncratic differences in function names and usually fail.
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18:49 < JayDugger> Right.
18:50 < JayDugger> I'd rather spend time earning money to buy my way out of that problem instead of spending time solving each instance of the problem.
18:50 < kanzure> crap, now bugzilla is hanging
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18:59 < kanzure> gmail level grinding
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19:02 < JayDugger> "http://goertzel.org/+ville.pdf" He's right. That's a crummy name.
19:03 < kanzure> he also doesn't seem to be aware of any of the current projects out there
19:03 < kanzure> which is odd, since patri and him are both working on the same humanityplus.org last time i checked
19:03 < JayDugger> And I wonder if it is any less half-baked than the old ExI thread about buying a surplus nuclear carrier.
19:03 < JayDugger> That did produce some funny jokes, though.
19:04 < kanzure> i've been thinking about buying a nuclear bunker, does that count?
19:04 < JayDugger> Sandberg and Yudkowsky arguing about the applicability of Bayesian reasoning to reactor operations, for one.
19:04 < kanzure> that sounds hilariously pointless
19:04 < JayDugger> Not unless it has its own reactor, or at least a RTG.
19:04 < kanzure> hm
19:04 < JayDugger> A fun thread, but pointless.
19:05 < JayDugger> It ended up with all the list-members who had been in a Navy waving good-bye--from the pier.
19:05 < JayDugger> Did you forward that to Patri Friedman or the other seasteaders?
19:06 < kanzure> no, it's too much of a joke to waste their time on
19:07 < JayDugger> I don't know. Historical precedents exist. Zionism succeeded, eventually, and the Mormons finally settled down in Utah.
19:08 < kanzure> no, i mean, ben doesn't seem to be aware of the other projects (and he should be since he's in the middle of their community)
19:08 < JayDugger> And the early North American colonies had their share of ideological motivators.
19:08 < kanzure> not the concept
19:08 < JayDugger> Oh.
19:08 < kanzure> most of us in here are pro-seasteading :)
19:09 < kanzure> although there are still some technical challenges that nobody has figured out a plan for solving
19:09 < JayDugger> Yeah, I want to see it work.
19:09 < JayDugger> Yeah.
19:09 < JayDugger> Like farming. Like building. Like making it stick when any Navy comes calling.
19:10 < JayDugger> Perhaps those all get addressed in the FAQ.
19:10 < JayDugger> Anyhow, time to prepare for work.
19:10 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
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22:13 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: why lurk? and self-replicating robots are space related, after all
22:13 < joshcryer> Ha
22:13 < CryptoQuick> ah, okm
22:13 < CryptoQuick> haha, whatever, I was looking for this the other day anyway
22:14 < joshcryer> I thought you'd be interested 'cause this is like a regular theme in our conversations.
22:14 < joshcryer> And you know that it's on my mind continually and all.
22:14 < CryptoQuick> I'm planning to write a paper for school about self-replicating robots for ISRU
22:14 < CryptoQuick> :)
22:14 < joshcryer> I think #space gets tired of my AASM ranting.
22:14 < joshcryer> So what's your proposal?
22:15 < joshcryer> And are they self-replicating or hive replicating?
22:15 < joshcryer> ie, does one unit robot replicate and assemble parts to make another of itself or does a hive of robots work together to expand the hive.
22:16 < joshcryer> Here's a paper I got a long time ago that talks about hive replicating: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=381W6W4T
22:16 < joshcryer> (Exponential Growth of Large Self-Reproducing Machine Systems)
22:17 < CryptoQuick> I was thinking about hives, actually, yeah
22:17 < CryptoQuick> because you'd need specialization in order to use local resources
22:17 < joshcryer> Yeah
22:18 < dustbin> that's the first time I've heard someone use the term hive replicating
22:18 < dustbin> I've always thought that concept was the way to go
22:18 < joshcryer> Same here.
22:18 < joshcryer> Going on 10 years or so.
22:19 < joshcryer> But I do find virtue in self-replication, ie, a shiping-container sized device that can make another shipping container sized device that can make anything.
22:19 < CryptoQuick> well, it's kinda wasteful, too
22:19 < joshcryer> Hives are the best way to expand local resources and can ultimately 'self-replicate' but the whole of their parts is external to the hive itself, ie, lots of digger robots and the like.
22:20 < joshcryer> At some point there's no real distinction because they're both Von Neuman.
22:21 < CryptoQuick> also, joshcryer, I just started out my research, but this looked interesting:
22:21 < CryptoQuick> http://cq.1k.ru/Yim2007p8960Ieee_Robot_Autom_Mag.pdf
22:23 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, I used to adore those K'Nex toys, and I still have a bag of about 1 kg of pieces.
22:24 < CryptoQuick> heh
22:24 < CryptoQuick> whow, that paper you linked me to is some high quality stuff, though
22:24 < CryptoQuick> thanks, man!
22:24 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, feel that some system like K'Nex or Meccano could work nicely.
22:24 < CryptoQuick> very high SNR here
22:24 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, it's the fucking bible of self-replication.
22:24 < joshcryer> The whole thermochemical cycle.
22:25 < CryptoQuick> I can believe that
22:25 < joshcryer> I have it memorized.
22:25 < joshcryer> :P
22:25 < joshcryer> I'm insane.
22:25 < joshcryer> Sorry.
22:25 < CryptoQuick> so, what is an auxon?
22:25 < joshcryer> A little robot made of soil.
22:25 < joshcryer> That can go out and get soil.
22:25 < CryptoQuick> :O
22:25 < joshcryer> Or make rails.
22:25 < CryptoQuick> that's awesome
22:26 < joshcryer> He assumes a rail system in his assumptions iirc.
22:26 < CryptoQuick> rails are nice, even in space
22:26 < joshcryer> Basically, you send out a seed robot, it digs up dirt takes it back to the hive, and then the hive makes another robot.
22:26 < CryptoQuick> that's great, dude
22:26 < joshcryer> Thsoe two robots go out, and make rails to move more robots and more stuff.
22:26 < joshcryer> Robots that break, get recycled.
22:26 < joshcryer> Yeah, and he uses sunlight!
22:27 < CryptoQuick> I know, right!
22:27 < joshcryer> All the math is balanced, it's really quite thorough.
22:27 < CryptoQuick> why hasn't anyone done this before?
22:27 < joshcryer> (fyi Imma build it on my land just you watch!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111onee)
22:27 < CryptoQuick> they've had sixteen years to do it, and I haven't heard of anyone actually doing this
22:27 < dustbin> it would have to be balanced to the local environment I suppose
22:28 < joshcryer> dustbin, I probably should've said "conservative" as he's not making any big leaps and all of his equations take into account waste heat and the like.
22:28 < CryptoQuick> yeah, I'm looking at the diagram on page 9 (63)
22:29 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, I have that tattooed on my stomach
22:29 < joshcryer> (not really)
22:29 < joshcryer> But it's ingrained in my head. :)
22:29 < CryptoQuick> haha, is this the inspiration for your funky-ass tattoo? :P
22:30 < joshcryer> hahaha
22:30 < joshcryer> maybe
22:32 < CryptoQuick> josh, I had no idea you were into robots, though
22:32 < CryptoQuick> I mean, yeah, you like reprap, but you also like sea dragon, and I'm like, you don't need sea dragon for these sort of robots
22:32 < CryptoQuick> I'm getting mixed signals from you, it's like trying to figure out if a guy is gay
22:34 < kanzure> hello world
22:34 < dustbin> hello kanzure
22:34 < dustbin> how's the cad
22:34 < joshcryer> I like Sea Dragon because it's simple.
22:34 < joshcryer> I like thermochemical replication becase ... it's simple.
22:34 < joshcryer> I like simple. :D
22:35 < CryptoQuick> true, I mean, this kind of thing, you'd think you could build in your backyard or basement
22:35 < CryptoQuick> but not sea dragon :P
22:35 < joshcryer> If I had some replicators I could... :P
22:35 < CryptoQuick> :D
22:35 < kanzure> dustbin: i'm still stuck on opengl/window-resizing-stuff
22:36 < CryptoQuick> kanzure: you're making a CAD program?
22:36 < kanzure> yes, i got sick of opencascade
22:36 < joshcryer> thermochemical tables: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AIE0XCAI
22:36 < joshcryer> ($150 value!)
22:36 < kanzure> and brlcad- while useful, neat, and clean- doesn't have quite the right internal representation that i'm looking for
22:37 < CryptoQuick> kanzure: I like Solidworks... I couldn't get the hang of BRL-CAD when I tried it a several years back
22:37 < joshcryer> NIST has it all for free though: http://webbook.nist.gov/
22:37 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: my strategy for developing a replicating machine is somewhat different from the reprap strategy
22:37 < CryptoQuick> yeah?
22:37 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: well, brlcad is more like CSG than it is like solid modeling (solidworks)
22:37 < CryptoQuick> yeah, I'm more into the parametric stuff, CSG is kinda... useless
22:38 < kanzure> so my CAD system right now is basically just python where you type out commands (sorta like brlcad except it doesn't suck)
22:38 < kanzure> so if you want to change the parameters, just re-run the python script
22:38 < kanzure> it exports to ISO 10303-21 (STEP)
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22:38 < kanzure> hello Yossi
22:38 < CryptoQuick> hey, if it's so python, why don't you run it on App Engine I'll write you a WebGL frontend :)
22:38 < kanzure> btw logs are http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-09-06.log
22:39 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: sounds fair
22:39 < kanzure> hey does WebGL support NURBS?
22:39 < kanzure> or do i have to tessellate my models into STL first
22:39 < CryptoQuick> it supports all that OpenGL ES 2.0 supports
22:39 < kanzure> oh shit
22:39 < CryptoQuick> though, I'm pretty sure that's just triangle-related stuff :P
22:39 < kanzure> oh :(
22:39 < joshcryer> Does OGL support nurbs natively? :P
22:40 < kanzure> joshcryer: yes
22:40 < kanzure> or maybe it's only GLU that adds in support for it? i should double check
22:40 < kanzure> so anyway, this is all a load of shit until i can get the frontend/display working
22:40 < kanzure> nobody is going to use a CAD system where they can't see what they are making
22:41 < joshcryer> fyi I haven't used OGL since 1.5
22:41 < joshcryer> So I am ignorant.
22:41 < kanzure> my camera/projection-matrices are all fucked up at the moment because years ago i refused to actually figure out the right way to use opengl
22:41 < joshcryer> And yeah, it would be nice to see what you are making.
22:41 < joshcryer> I personally use Blender for my CAD stuff, but I appreciate the need for a bottom up design.
22:41 < kanzure> blender is not CAD
22:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cadfaq
22:42 < CryptoQuick> oh, that's a 'q'
22:42 < kanzure> heh
22:42 < CryptoQuick> links always obscure that in my font :)
22:42 < kanzure> it's a "fancy g"
22:42 < kanzure> "Q, the lesser known G"
22:42 < CryptoQuick> more like a 'funny' g :)
22:43 < kanzure> almost a.. queer g?
22:43 < CryptoQuick> quite!
22:43 < kanzure> quintescintly!
22:43 < CryptoQuick> ok, quit it :P
22:43 < Yossi> what is this channel about?
22:43 < kanzure> so anyway, strategy for designing a self-replicating system
22:43 < kanzure> Yossi: world domination
22:43 < CryptoQuick> indeed
22:43 < CryptoQuick> and humans
22:44 < CryptoQuick> somewhere
22:44 < Yossi> the links in the topic are dead
22:44 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: instead of haphazardly adding on one part after another without being able to analyze- in some quantified way- the overall impact on the design and manufacturing processes, you're going to go nowhere fast
22:44 < kanzure> Yossi: yeah my servers are dead, uhm.. uh.
22:44 < kanzure> http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web
22:44 < CryptoQuick> forgot to pay your hosting fees? :)
22:44 < kanzure> http://github.com/kanzure/skdb/
22:45 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: i wish
22:45 < kanzure> so yeah- instead of adding on one part after another,
22:45 < kanzure> what if you have a collection of components and how to make them
22:45 < kanzure> and then you look at the manufacturing processes and select a cyclic graph
22:46 < kanzure> in other words, a set of designs and components that are capable of building themselves, such that process X depends on process Y which depends on a long list of other things, that ultimately just depend on process X, etc.
22:46 < CryptoQuick> oh dude!
22:46 < CryptoQuick> that is such a sweet idea
22:46 < kanzure> such that "vitamin processes" are reduced, but perhaps vitamin parts are not, or something
22:46 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: are you a linux user?
22:46 < CryptoQuick> yes
22:46 < kanzure> debian?
22:46 < CryptoQuick> yes
22:46 < kanzure> i want apt-get for hardware
22:46 < CryptoQuick> :)
22:46 < kanzure> so that's what the skdb project is
22:47 < kanzure> hardware packages, and such
22:47 < kanzure> there's a small community over here:
22:47 < CryptoQuick> so, you're looking for a hinge or joint, you can go browsing
22:47 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
22:47 < kanzure> oddly enough there's a lot of crossover with the do-it-yourself biohacking community
22:47 < kanzure> http://diybio.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/diybio
22:48 < kanzure> well not only that, but it takes a lot of time to do a project
22:48 < kanzure> if you've ever spent a few months trying to get an old industrial arm working, you know what i mean
22:48 < kanzure> or trying to build a reprap from scratch or something
22:49 < kanzure> there's a lot of shit that you have to go through (just like compiling large software projects)
22:49 < kanzure> and a lot of avenues of crap that you really shouldn't have to repeat [since someone has done those same stupid things before]
22:49 < kanzure> advantageously this also helps towards a self-replicating system of parts and components
22:49 < kanzure> full of win?
22:49 < CryptoQuick> quite!
22:49 < kanzure> quintescintly!
22:49 < kanzure> wait
22:50 < CryptoQuick> this is pretty neat, but how do you get the parts? do you print them? make them? or get an instruction guide into how to obtain them?
22:50 < kanzure> in a universe of rainbows and unicorns, apt-get would either mean (1) your CNC machines start building shit
22:50 < kanzure> or (2) it is delivered to your front door
22:51 < kanzure> in many cases though it will probably be (3) some mix of the first two options plus human-readable instructions for manual labor and assembly
22:51 < CryptoQuick> aha
22:51 < CryptoQuick> well, first I gotta get onto making my own CNC machine
22:51 < kanzure> right, so a cnc machine is totally something that there shoiuld be a hardware package for
22:52 < kanzure> like the mechmate, lilcnc, or mitch free's "open source but nobody has ever seen it" cnc system
22:52 < kanzure> *diylilcnc
22:52 < kanzure> also, uh reprap
22:52 < kanzure> did i mention that every hardware package in skdb is actually just a git repository
22:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/reprap/ or git clone git://diyhpl.us/reprap.git
22:53 < CryptoQuick> heh, that's pretty neat too :)
22:53 < CryptoQuick> I'm a fan of hg, but git's alright too, I have a friend who works there
22:53 < kanzure> not everyone has to be a package maintainer, blah blah blah
22:53 < kanzure> yeah, i don't have a strong opinion of git vs. bzr vs. hg
22:54 < CryptoQuick> I just use what works :)
22:54 < CryptoQuick> well, also, google code is nice
22:54 < kanzure> it's ok i'll become jaded soon enough
22:54 < kanzure> so anyway, all this stuff is pretty neat but it's kinda pie-in-the-sky if you haven't noticed
22:54 < kanzure> i mean, i can only package so many different hardware stuff- a lot of the design files frankly DO NOT EXIST
22:55 < kanzure> or it's in a god damn pdf file
22:55 < CryptoQuick> yeah, I hear ya
22:55 < CryptoQuick> never enough time to put into all your projects
22:55 < kanzure> so that brings us to why i'm working on an open source CAD system
22:56 < kanzure> some open source friendly way of specifying designs and stuff would be, uh, nice
22:56 < kanzure> and STEP works with all legit CAD packages out there (solidworks, catia, autocad, pro/e, alibre, whatever)
22:56 < kanzure> plus you get the parametric benefits so it's win-win
22:56 < CryptoQuick> I have experience with 3D stuff, and I know how to write python, but all my work has been occupied by Nanoblok lately (joshcryer would know)
22:57 < kanzure> web-based svg editor?
22:57 < kanzure> is that like svg-edit
22:57 < CryptoQuick> web-based voxel editor, yeah
22:57 < kanzure> example: http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/editor/svg-editor.html
22:57 < CryptoQuick> so, not really svg
22:57 < kanzure> oh a voxel editor, cool
22:57 < CryptoQuick> yeah, you can see it here:
22:57 < CryptoQuick> editor.nanoblok.com
22:57 < kanzure> wtf it uses google accounts
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22:57 < CryptoQuick> oh, you might need to login
22:57 < CryptoQuick> haha, yeah
22:57 < kanzure> blah
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22:57 < CryptoQuick> I can give you an experimental version
22:58 < kanzure> at the top of it google sez: " Update: the privacy policy has been simplified and updated. Learn more. "
22:58 < kanzure> lovely
22:58 < CryptoQuick> http://cq.1k.ru/nb07/
22:58 < CryptoQuick> heh, yeah, I saw their blog post about it
22:58 < CryptoQuick> very 'we're not evil'
22:58 < kanzure> how do i rotate
22:58 < CryptoQuick> there are buttons and there are keys
22:59 < kanzure> oh i see
22:59 < CryptoQuick> the help manual is here:
22:59 < CryptoQuick> http://code.google.com/p/nanoblok/wiki/NanoIntro
22:59 < kanzure> and this is all svg/javascript?
22:59 < CryptoQuick> svg, html5, and javascript, yes
22:59 < CryptoQuick> with an App Engine backend
23:00 < kanzure> one of the first skdb hardware packages was a set of legos
23:00 < kanzure> have you ever used leocad?
23:01 < kanzure> i guess it wasn't really voxel-based editing.. but still
23:01 < CryptoQuick> LeoCAD looks pretty right on :)
23:01 < kanzure> also
23:02 < kanzure> Yossi: hope i answered your question adequately
23:02 < joshcryer> It's show and tell!
23:02 < Yossi> i guess
23:02 < joshcryer> I designed a house I'm gunna build: http://i37.tinypic.com/986nhv.jpg
23:02 < joshcryer> But code is something I've been sucking at lately.
23:03 < kanzure> joshcryer: looks like a space shuttle
23:03 < kanzure> or a frying pan gone wrong?
23:03 < joshcryer> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uDVUtWWwEk
23:04 < CryptoQuick> I dislike this. >:V
23:05 < joshcryer> How dare you.
23:05 < CryptoQuick> I dare!
23:06 < CryptoQuick> dude, your take on breakout seems pretty cool though
23:06 < joshcryer> It's made up of about 5 major pieces, all of which I'll hand cut and assemble (metal probably).
23:07 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: you should check out my machine porn playlist http://www.youtube.com/user/kanzure#grid/user/0EB93E6E02E5CF17
23:07 < joshcryer> Eh, #gamedev thought that breakout concept was retarded and I gave up.
23:07 < kanzure> is #gamedev primarily gamedev.net?
23:07 < joshcryer> Nah, that's irc.alternet.net
23:07 < kanzure> oright
23:08 < joshcryer> First rule of #gamedev is not to do game dev.
23:08 < kanzure> indie game developers have some of the sickest motivational issues i have ever seen
23:08 < kanzure> "oh but i don't want to implement tile mapping tonight" ARGH
23:09 < joshcryer> I work, and am against working when I'm at home, when, I'm not supposed to do any monotonaus activities.
23:09 < joshcryer> monotonous, rather
23:09 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: it kinda reminds me of a game called airburst
23:09 < CryptoQuick> http://www.freeverse.com/mac/product/?id=311
23:09 < kanzure> joshcryer: you work?
23:10 < joshcryer> kanzure, construction.
23:10 < joshcryer> And, wtf, it's already getting cold.
23:10 < CryptoQuick> you must be all toned and stuff
23:10 < CryptoQuick> from lifting lumber and concrete and steel all day
23:11 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, and P90X.
23:11 < CryptoQuick> :O
23:11 < CryptoQuick> (´???)? joshcryer 
23:11 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, I should take new pics but no camera.
23:12 < CryptoQuick> :V
23:12 < joshcryer> I think I'm the only one I know without one.
23:12 < CryptoQuick> haha, yeah, man
23:12 < kanzure> joshcryer: the paranoid response is to admit that there's enough cameras around you anyway
23:13 < kanzure> fenn: are you back yet
23:13 < joshcryer> kanzure, heh, they recently put up a speed camera near here, and people are getting caught all the time, it's so awesome to watch the flash and then their brake lights go on hard, as if it will change the outcome.
23:13 < kanzure> the speed of light is only a soft limit, right?
23:14 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, I'm so quitting my job if we get another winter like last year. SERIOUSLY. UGH.
23:15 < CryptoQuick> :'T
23:15 < CryptoQuick> it's all because of Obama
23:15 < joshcryer> Didn't Denver have a nasty winter too?
23:15 < joshcryer> Though it was worse for the east coast.
23:16 < CryptoQuick> well yeah, but if he didn't put all that money into construction stimulus instead of into space robot stimulus, you might be working on your dreams!
23:16 < kanzure> please, take the weather into #space
23:16 < kanzure> hahah
23:16 < kanzure> good night
23:16 < joshcryer> w/e I'm talking to CryptoQuick :P
23:16 < CryptoQuick> cya, kanzure :)
23:16 < joshcryer> 'night
23:17 < joshcryer> Here's my magical strategy for world non-domination:
23:17 < kanzure> jmil: also did joe get to the thing you needed us to do
23:19 < joshcryer> Get me some land. I initially was going to grab some nice farmland in Montanna or Wyoming, 'cause it's cheap, and there's a lot of wind. But I came to the conclusion that wind power is dwarfed absolutely by solar power, so I had to change it to desert land, which is actually cheaper, but just harder to get a hold of, since most desert land was never grabbed up before BLM stopped homesteading.
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23:19 < CryptoQuick> uhu
23:19 < CryptoQuick> where u find wator?
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23:21 < joshcryer> Eh, have it shipped in if a well won't suffice. There's also an option of a nearby river where I found that one parcel.
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23:21 < joshcryer> Arizona has these massive agriculture farms that use wellwater.
23:22 < joshcryer> They're like little oasises in Google Earth.
23:22 < CryptoQuick> but they're wasting well water
23:22 < CryptoQuick> it's not going to last!
23:22 < joshcryer> Yeah :(
23:22 < joshcryer> Stupid aquifer depleators.
23:23 < CryptoQuick> :)
23:23 < joshcryer> But I'm one person and I hope to recycle all waste.
23:23 < joshcryer> So ultimately waste would be prespiration and maybe evaporation from spilt water, etc.
23:23 < CryptoQuick> hey josh: http://cq.1k.ru/1274821999214.png
23:24 < joshcryer> I see unicorns!
23:24 < joshcryer> Anyway seriously.
23:24 < CryptoQuick> :)
23:24 < joshcryer> If I don't have to work all day I can do other shit like, melt stuff. :)
23:24 < CryptoQuick> http://cq.1k.ru/1238325025871.jpg
23:25 < CryptoQuick> melt stuff, in the name of science!
23:25 < joshcryer> Well, the Auxon paper basically says "melt stuff."
23:25 < CryptoQuick> true
23:25 < CryptoQuick> melt, oxidate, volatilize
23:26 < joshcryer> Build a concentrated solar power farm, with the money I have saved up, and I can have my own forge again.
23:26 < joshcryer> (I have a small charcoal forge still, but I haven't fired it up in 4-5 years.)
23:27 < joshcryer> Since I'll have all that free time (growing my own food, etc), I'll be able to contribute to projects like RepRap.
23:27 < CryptoQuick> a solar forge?
23:27 < joshcryer> But probably not RepRap because their component cost is going up way too high, it's absurd.
23:27 -!- uniqanomaly__ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-83-120.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:27 < joshcryer> Yeah, a solar forge.
23:27 < joshcryer> I found a big ass fresnel lense from a projection screen TV.
23:27 < CryptoQuick> :D
23:27 < joshcryer> IT MELTS CONCRETE
23:27 < CryptoQuick> :O
23:28 < joshcryer> CONCRETE
23:28 < joshcryer> IT MELTS IT
23:28 < CryptoQuick> no wonder they get messed up if you put 'em outside
23:28 < joshcryer> I know for sure people thought I was INSANE for sitting outside with a multi-tool, taking it out of the TV.
23:29 < joshcryer> I also have the lamps, not sure what they'll be good for, but they work. :)
23:30 < CryptoQuick> lamps? it was DLP?
23:31 -!- uniqanomaly__ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-95-67.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:31 < joshcryer> Doubt it, it was really old.
23:31 < joshcryer> It had red, green, and blue lamps, that had mineral oil in them to keep them cool.
23:32 < joshcryer> That left a stain...
23:32 < CryptoQuick> weird
23:32 < CryptoQuick> F******* TELEVISIONS, HOW DO THEY WORK!?!?
23:33 -!- dustbin [~chatzilla@adsl-71-145-146-189.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: night ya'll]
23:33 < joshcryer> http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/sam/icets/VHB2-10.gif
23:34 < joshcryer> I think ultimately I'm going to focus on ICs though.
23:34 < joshcryer> I think kanzure is probably on to something with skdb, and there's only so much one person can do.
23:34 < CryptoQuick> ICs? you want to make potato chips?
23:35 < CryptoQuick> I mean, uh, silicon chips
23:35 < CryptoQuick> weird, how that got in there, it's late
23:35 < joshcryer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit
23:35 < joshcryer> You didn't sleep all day?
23:35 < CryptoQuick> you know, I tried
23:35 < CryptoQuick> but I've been sleeping gooder lately
23:36 < joshcryer> I was up all weekend again and realized I didn't have to work and just slept forever, now I have to reset my sleep cycle.
23:36 < CryptoQuick> :T
23:37 < joshcryer> I'm particularly fond of memresistors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memristor
23:38 < joshcryer> it might let me build a ternary instruction set!
23:38 < CryptoQuick> you should make a bubble logic water computer
23:41 < CryptoQuick> I accidentally 70 tabs in Chrome
23:41 < CryptoQuick> is this bad?
23:42 < CryptoQuick> http://cq.1k.ru/chromeprocs.png
23:44 < joshcryer> is that nanoblock?
23:45 < CryptoQuick> haha, maybe two or three of those :P
23:59 -!- Phreedom [~quassel@109.254.6.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
--- Log closed Tue Sep 07 00:00:17 2010