--- Log opened Tue Sep 07 00:00:17 2010
00:07 < joshcryer> Memresistor talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGhvKyjgLY
00:07 < joshcryer> Watching it now, not sure if it's any good. :)
00:13 < joshcryer> (it's good)
00:14 < CryptoQuick> twss
00:22 < joshcryer> omg it's a chemical change
00:22 < joshcryer> that's so amazingly cool
00:22 < CryptoQuick> :'T
00:23 < joshcryer> 14 mins in
00:24 < joshcryer> now to see how long the memresitor holds its state 
00:24 < joshcryer> a day?
00:24 < joshcryer> a hundred days?
00:25 < CryptoQuick> whiaouw! www.google.com
00:25 < jmil> good job, thanks!
00:25 < jmil> interesting
00:25 < jmil> is that javascript?
00:26 < CryptoQuick> jmil: HTML5 + JS, yeah
00:29 < jmil> joshcryer: what's a memresistor?
00:29 < jmil> he lost me in the first sentence
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00:30 < QuantumG> it's a device that couples flux to charge with a state
00:30 < CryptoQuick> basically, it's a flux capactor.
00:31 < QuantumG> yes
00:31 < joshcryer> jmil, short explaination, by pushing current through it, it will change its resistance, ie, scalar change. So you can tweak the resistance it holds arbitrarily. He doesn't say how long the state is held, however, it happens due to oxygen ion transfer between two layers, it could last a fairly long time. 
00:32 < CryptoQuick> until you light it on fire
00:32 < QuantumG> joshcryer: at 21 minutes he says "at least in theory the state has a geological lifetime"
00:33 < jmil> so why do you need it?
00:33 < joshcryer> QuantumG, I heard that but I wasn't sure he meant that!
00:33 < joshcryer> I mean, wow.
00:33 < joshcryer> That's epic.
00:33 < jmil> isn't that a transistor?
00:33 < QuantumG> transistors don't have anything to do with flux
00:33 < QuantumG> (and they're not fundamental)
00:33 < joshcryer> he says the state has an infinite lifetime at 25min
00:33 < jmil> oh flux capacitor, i know all about that yeah
00:34 < CryptoQuick> "it's what makes time travel possible"
00:34 < joshcryer> jmil, it will let you save data at dram-like speeds.
00:34 < QuantumG> with nanoscale components
00:35 < CryptoQuick> yeah, it's gonna be real cool in ten years when you can put an ARM chip in your SSD and call that your computer
00:35 < katsmeow-afk> they been working on memristors for a decade, HP "made a breakthru" a few yrs ago, still nothing on the market to buy tho
00:35 < joshcryer> 20 gb in 1cm
00:36 < joshcryer> katsmeow-afk, the early ones were super slow
00:36 < katsmeow-afk> i know
00:36 < joshcryer> and he didn't discover the TiO2 approach until 4 years ago
00:36 < jmil> katsmeow-afk: correction: "still nothing to buy tho"... just buy HP
00:37 < katsmeow-afk> bottom line: when's Mouser going to sell them?
00:37 < joshcryer> probably before 2015?
00:37  * katsmeow-afk nods
00:37 < joshcryer> I saw an article that said they were going to make them "in 3 years" and it was a 2010 article
00:37 < joshcryer> let me find it
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00:38 < katsmeow-afk> i saw an article saying the same thing! in 2009 , 2008, 2007, etc
00:38 < joshcryer> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/science/08chips.html?hpw
00:38 < joshcryer> He said the company could have a competitor to flash memory in three years that would have a capacity of 20 gigabytes a square centimeter.
00:38 < joshcryer> fair enough
00:39 < katsmeow-afk> flash? last i heard they were skipping flash and going for desktop/laptop ram
00:39 < joshcryer> this thing could save data for thousands of years
00:39 < katsmeow-afk> Published: April 7, 2010
00:39 < joshcryer> with no batteries
00:40 < joshcryer> there's your space probe chip right there :P
00:40 < CryptoQuick> well, how does it do against radiation?
00:40 < joshcryer> bury it in a chunk of lead :P
00:40 < katsmeow-afk> i understand memristors, i even seem to remember something about them from Science magazine in the 1970s, but no oneis selling them <shrug>
00:40 < joshcryer> katsmeow-afk, this video is claiming that flash can't shrink much more than it already is so memresistors would be ideal for flash
00:41 < QuantumG> Recently, a simple electronic circuit consisting of an LC network and a memristor was used to model experiments on adaptive behavior of unicellular organisms. It was shown that the electronic circuit subjected to a train of periodic pulses learns and anticipates the next pulse to come, similarly to the behavior of slime molds Physarum polycephalum subjected to periodic changes of environment.
00:41 < joshcryer> but granted it's a 9 month old video
00:41 < joshcryer> memresistors are so much win
00:41 < joshcryer> memristors
00:41 < joshcryer> (that's going to be hard to learn to spell properly)
00:42 < QuantumG> http://pre.aps.org/abstract/PRE/v80/i2/e021926
00:42 < CryptoQuick> moar liek memeristor
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00:43 < joshcryer> don't think I could make my own memristor though
00:43 < jmil> i don't get it, my memory is fine
00:43 < joshcryer> the effect fails at anything very much beyond nanoscale
00:43 < QuantumG> joshcryer: I can see the catchphrase already "now you can see the doping vacancies inherent in the system!"
00:43 < jmil> oh, what day is it now?
00:44 < joshcryer> omfg!
00:44 < joshcryer> 36 mins in
00:45 < joshcryer> "petabits in 1cm^2"
00:45 < QuantumG> stored for geological timescales!
00:45 < joshcryer> ok crazy guy is hyping this beyond comprehension
00:45 < CryptoQuick> radiation and flame resistant!
00:46 < joshcryer> but he sounds like he knows what he's talking about!
00:46 < joshcryer> :O
00:48 < QuantumG> omg, that's incredible if it works.. I want my memristor non-volatile memory that is faster than sram and stores data for longer than the Earth will be around.
00:48 < joshcryer> haha
00:49 < QuantumG> I wonder if you can grow memristor memory crystals in a petri dish too
00:49 < joshcryer> what bugs me is that I'm not getting a geniunely crazy vibe from this guy
00:49 < jrayhawk> jmil: does the git snapshot cron thing you wanted still need doing?
00:49 < jrayhawk> if so, please describe it in detail.
00:51 < QuantumG> joshcryer: it's because he explains *everything*
00:51 < joshcryer> "hey we gunna put a brain in a 1cm^2 chip kthx"
00:51 < QuantumG> at 39 minutes he's explaining Mathematica
00:51 < joshcryer> QuantumG, yeah, he's not leaving anything out, and that turns down the BS meter.
00:52 < QuantumG> seriously, these things are so simple, and at the right scale, that I bet there are crystals you can grow that are memristors
00:52 < jmil> jrayhawk: ya i have the script written in my home dir
00:52 < jmil> i just need to throw it in my crontab
00:53 < katsmeow-afk> and then lay down the copper, and opamps, and stuff?
00:53 < joshcryer> aww he ran out of time :(
00:53 < jmil> cat /home/jsmiller/reprap_git_SVN.sh
00:53 < joshcryer> skipped some good slides
00:53 < jmil> it needs to be in my crontab tho
00:53 < jmil> jrayhawk: 
00:53 < jrayhawk> Is there an http namespace set up for you to throw the results in? I haven't checked up on what you and Bryan have been up to in a while.
00:53 < jmil> jrayhawk: it needs to be in my crontab
00:53 < QuantumG> like, Avogadro's numbers of memristors.
00:54 < jmil> jrayhawk: oh the results are automagically pushed to the SVN branch
00:54 < QuantumG> interconnected in some defined way.
00:54 < jmil> so nothing else is needed
00:54 < jrayhawk> ah
00:54 < jmil> except to put it in my crontab for running every 15 min
00:54 < jmil> 15 min is actualy preferable to every 5 min in case of network congestion
00:55  * joshcryer favorites that video
00:55 < jmil> which could cause git failure
00:55 < QuantumG> 10^11 synapses on a cm^2 chip :)
00:56 < QuantumG> that video is gold
00:56 < joshcryer> it really is
00:56 < joshcryer> wow.
00:57 < jmil> jrayhawk: i think i added to my crontab...
00:57 < jmil> anyway to tell if it is running?
00:57 < jmil> maybe i should have it log somewhere?
00:57 < QuantumG> he talks about photonics at the end.. it's all optic fibres and memristor crystals in the future.
00:57 < QuantumG> sci-fi everywhere got it right.
00:57 < jmil> because i don't know if i edited my crontab correctly jrayhawk 
00:58 < jmil> or if my crontab is active
00:58 < jmil> evnen
00:58 < jmil> even
00:58 < joshcryer> omg voyager's neural gel packs are memristors
00:58 < jrayhawk> man 5 crontab
00:59 < jrayhawk> the "MAILTO" variable is probably the thing you want
00:59 < jrayhawk> Any thing going to stdout will wind up mailed to you.
00:59 < jrayhawk> Assuming you set MAILTO to your address.
00:59 < jrayhawk> Otherwise I think it'll wind up emailing me, if I understand the mail system correctly.
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01:02 < jrayhawk> http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-09-07.log if you missed anything
01:03 < QuantumG> http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&q=memristor&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=2010&as_vis=0
01:04 < QuantumG> so much arxiv.org
01:04 < QuantumG> Memristor MOS Content Addressable Memory (MCAM): Hybrid Architecture for Future High Performance Search Engines
01:04 < jmil> jrayhawk: ok thx
01:04 < jmil> i'm not gonna do the mail thing i think, b/c i don't think either of us want an email every 15 min
01:05 < QuantumG> Memristor-based pattern recognition for image processing: an adaptive coded aperture imaging and sensing opportunity
01:05 < jmil> just knowing that my crontab should be working is good, i'll wait for adrian's next push into SVN and then check the cgit on gnusha
01:05 < jmil> to see if it updated the SVN branch
01:05 < Utopiah> jmil: I didn't read the whole story but I see SVN and crontab, did you consider hooks?
01:05 < jrayhawk> Your git commands do not have -q, so it is going to be emailing *someone*
01:06 < jmil> wha?
01:06 < jmil> Utopiah: i don't have access to SVN repo
01:06 < jmil> only can pull from it
01:06 < jmil> jrayhawk: stdout always gets mailed for crontab?
01:07 < jrayhawk> Yeah. Some people just close stdout, but sometimes useful diagnostic stuff winds up there.
01:07 < jrayhawk> git is made well enough for this; just add -q to all your commands.
01:07 < jrayhawk> It'll only print errors.
01:08 < QuantumG> "neuromorphic computing"
01:08 < jmil> jrayhawk: ok, done. just ran script manually, only output is result of pushing 
01:10 < jmil> lemme know if i should turn it off more
01:12 < QuantumG> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.163.1951&rep=rep1&type=pdf  nice short paper
01:12 < jmil> jrayhawk: if you get too many mails (every 15 min?)
01:13 < jmil> i unfortunately don't know how to use pine, so i can't check email easy on command line
01:17 < jrayhawk> Well,
01:17 < jrayhawk> presumably you would have it MAILTO=jrdnmlr@gmail.com
01:18 < jmil> how do i do that?
01:18  * jmil shrugs like a newbie
01:19 < jrayhawk> man 5 crontab
01:19 < joshcryer> QuantumG that is a god awful disturbing amazingly awesome paper.
01:19 < jmil> why is there a 5 there?
01:20 < jrayhawk> man man
01:20 < jmil> whatis man
01:20 < jmil> that's a good xkcd i think 
01:20 < jmil> lol
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01:25 < jrayhawk> man man is also an excellent band
01:26 < jmil> excellente, will look it up
01:26 < jmil> got to see a man about a horse
01:27 < jmil> laterz peeps
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04:00 < joshcryer> http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/32414.wss
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04:38 < QuantumG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5UTRTOfgo4&feature=related explains it even more
04:43 < joshcryer> QuantumG <3
04:43 < joshcryer> Thanks.
04:43 < joshcryer> I have to work soon though. :/
04:44 < QuantumG> btw
04:44 < QuantumG> tonight, 7pm PDT, Propellant Depots talk on The Space Show
04:45 < QuantumG> Dan Adamo is planning to blow LEO prop depots out of the water.
04:48 < joshcryer> :)
04:48 < joshcryer> Might check it out, but I expect to fall asleep as soon as I get home.
04:48 < QuantumG> how far east are you?
04:48 < joshcryer> Just an hour.
04:49 < joshcryer> I'll be just getting in, having something to eat, and passing out. :)
04:49 < QuantumG> k.
04:49 < QuantumG> enjoy
04:49 < joshcryer> Slept all day Labor Day (American Holiday here), and been up all night.
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04:51 < QuantumG> ya know
04:51 < QuantumG> it is funny
04:51 < QuantumG> what this guy is saying is that all the talk about "Oh Noes! Moore's Law breaks down at the nanoscale!"
04:52 < QuantumG> == memristors
04:52 < QuantumG> congrats, you just graduated to the next level
04:58 < joshcryer> You knew about 'em before I mentioned 'em though right?
04:58 < joshcryer> Seems like there's a crapload of new stuff out (I was browsing arxiv earlier), but I admit I just forgot about them until last night.
04:58 < QuantumG> I'd heard the term and understood it at the "what is it?" level
04:58 < QuantumG> I had no idea how it worked
04:59 < joshcryer> I knew that they did transition states and were possibly useful for a ternary computing system.
04:59 < joshcryer> But screw ternary computing now that we have synapse computing!
04:59 < joshcryer> !!!!!
04:59 < QuantumG> 111one
05:04 < QuantumG> "the width of the tunnel barrier is the state variable"
05:07 < QuantumG> "tremendously non-linear, the tunnel barrier is an exponential of an exponential"
05:08 < QuantumG> "these circuits use picojoules"
05:17 < joshcryer> :O
05:18 < joshcryer> I'm putting this on my netbook.
05:18 < QuantumG> last year 100 memristors was fabricated into a CMOS FPGA
05:18 < joshcryer> It just finished downloading.
05:19 < joshcryer> gtg, thanks again QuantumG
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07:25 < Utopiah> does the SeaStanding project has refs. to the Navy Seabasing (Carderock, http://www.onrglobal.navy.mil/public/about/conferences/rd_partner/2007/docs/thursday_070802/Sea_Basing_Enablers_INP_Cooper.ppt )
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07:44 < kanzure> < jmil> jrayhawk: oh the results are automagically pushed to the SVN branch
07:44 < kanzure> for the record, that sounds like an awful idea
07:44 < jmil> why?
07:44 < kanzure> you mean you're pushing .tar.gz files into svn? and the .tar.gz files are copies of the repository?
07:44 < jmil> i do it all the time
07:44 < jmil> no no no
07:44 < jmil> i named an SVN branch in the git repo
07:45 < jmil> that should only ever be remote tracking of the reprap SVN official repo
07:45 < jmil> other commits go into master
07:45 < jmil> periodically i will manually merge into master
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07:46 < jmil> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/reprap/
07:46 < jmil> two branches, "master" and "SVN"
07:47 < jmil> kanzure: you see what i mean?
07:47 < jmil> here's the original manual for doing this:
07:47 < jmil> http://www.fnokd.com/2008/08/20/mirroring-svn-repository-to-github/
07:49 < kanzure> this isn't the thing that adrian was asking for
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07:50 < kanzure> or am i confused?
07:54 < kanzure> http://vimeo.com/10719012 Hojun Song "Open Source Satellite Project" (Lift Asia09 EN)
07:54 < kanzure> http://www.hhjjj.com
07:54 < kanzure> http://opensat.cc/
08:00 < jmil> kanzure: you are confused i think...
08:01 < jmil> forward-compatible tracking of SVN repo to include legacy devs who take a very long time to switch to git is one of my design criteria for the git reprap repo
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08:16 < kanzure> jmil: yeah but wasn't adrian asking you to make some way to download individual folders without git commit history or something?
08:16 < kanzure> i'm so confused
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10:41 < kanzure> http://www.smlib.com/
10:41 < kanzure> http://www.smlib.com/smlib.html has an interesting overview of a non-manifold topology library that "also does NURBS"
10:41 < kanzure> "In theory, BREP modelers could build any real part that could be manufactured. A model consisting of a cylinder lying on a box can not be manufactured since the region of contact between the two parts is just a line."
10:42 < kanzure> "In 1986 Kevin Weiler published his PhD thesis titled "Topological Structures for Geometric Modeling" and in it he generalized the twin edge boundary edge representation into a radial edge representation together with the ability to include points and curves."
10:42 < CryptoQuick> computers can be really dumb sometimes
10:42 < CryptoQuick> "how do I put a cylinder inside a box"
10:42 < CryptoQuick> durr hurr
10:52 < kanzure> oh lovely they have a warped concept of what "open source" means
10:52 < kanzure> "All of the software and documentation received with this release of SMLib is copyrighted by either Solid Modeling Solutions, IntegrityWare or GeomWare Inc(s). You may not distribute source code or documentation for this software outside of the company and the site which owns the license."
10:52 < kanzure> " The standard license agreement allows you to freely distribute object code in any application which does not contain a programmatic interface. All software and documentation is considered proprietary information and the intellectual property of Solid Modeling Solutions, Inc., IntegrityWare, Inc., and GeomWare Inc."
10:53 < kanzure> "This document contains trade secret information which these companies deem proprietary."
10:53 < kanzure> ugh
10:55 < kanzure> non-manifold data structures and operators http://web.archive.org/web/20030501141918/http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~gwaltz/db/
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11:12 < kanzure> does this look like a solidworks importer to anyone else?
11:12 < kanzure> https://svn.mcs.anl.gov/repos/ITAPS/cgm/trunk/geom/SolidWorks/SWImport.cpp
11:12 < kanzure> seems to import a solidworks dll file though
11:12 < kanzure> https://svn.mcs.anl.gov/repos/ITAPS/cgm/trunk/geom/SolidWorks/SWImport.hpp
11:13 < kanzure> no clue what DLIList.hpp is.
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17:44 < kyledrake> Hi, does Bryan live here? I'm seeking python EPOC hacking information.
17:46 < QuantumG> he does
17:46 < QuantumG> and was just here.. so probably isn't far away
17:47 < QuantumG> kanzure
17:50 < kanzure> rawr
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17:52 < QuantumG> python EPOC hacking?
17:54 < kanzure> emotiv epoc, the eeg headset
18:05 < QuantumG> "Dynetics" it only sounds like an evil megacorporation. http://dynetics.com/employee-ownership.php
18:11 < kyledrake> QuantumG: Thanks!
18:11 < kyledrake> kanzure: I'm trying to do some EPOC research, without having to get into .NET
18:12 < kyledrake> kanzure: I just need raw EEG data for the most part
18:16 < kyledrake> So yeah.. I'm very interested in the python development stuff mentioned here: http://www.emotiv.com/forum/forum4/topic97/
18:22 < jrayhawk> The services Bryan normally uses for hosting stuff are down, so it'll probably take him a bit to get that back up somewheres.
18:34 < kanzure> kyledrake: http://diyhpl.us/irc/emotiv/epoc/kanzure_emotiv_epoc_egg.dat
18:34 < kanzure> or just dig around in http://diyhpl.us/irc/emotiv/epoc/
18:34 < kanzure> kanzure_emotiv_epoc_eeg.dat is unfortunately in the encrypted format
18:35 < kyledrake> kanzure: Thanks!
18:35 < kyledrake> kanzure: Encrypted format? I've heard of this, I'm confused as to what it means
18:36 < kanzure> AES encryption is applied on top of the EEG readings
18:36 < kanzure> presumably somewhere in the epoc software it's unencrypted and then parsed (somehow)
18:38 < kyledrake> kanzure: You can't get raw EEG data? I don't see how you can program for this thing then. I've heard that the development version doesn't do this, but I was told that by someone not fluent in programming
18:39 < kanzure> they have an sdk or something where you interface with their dll files or something
18:39 < kanzure> but i'm not a windows user so it's useless
18:39 < kanzure> (and no running it under wine doesn't sound like a good idea)
18:40 < kyledrake> kanzure: http://www.emotiv.com/forum/forum4/topic806/   <- Apparently its just so they can charge more for the other ones. Jesus these guys aren't shady.
18:40 < kanzure> heh
18:40 < kanzure> btw we've talked about the eeg stuff a few times before in here
18:40 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-03-05.log
18:40 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-07-08.log
18:40 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-07-18.log
18:41 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-08-23.log
18:42 < kyledrake> kanzure: Awesome, thank you so much. I have access to the "research" version, so I'm going to try to get it to spit out raw eeg. I'll share my code with you when I get it working
18:44 < jrayhawk> Distributing circumvention tools is legally dangerous; I would suggest you do so anonymously if you get that far.
18:44 < kyledrake> jrayhawk: Duely noted.
18:45 < kyledrake> jrayhawk: I -think- it will spit out non-encrypted data for this version I have. Not sure yet. I'm going to try for it this weekend
18:47 < kanzure> there is also the other working hypothesis that there is no encryption and i just can't figure out their datastream format
18:48 < kyledrake> kanzure: No, there is encryption. My colleague was accurate, the non-500 dollar ones have some kind of weird ugly encryption scheme going on
19:02 < QuantumG> The Space Show is starting now, tune in, hear Dan Adamo talk about propellant depots: how to make them work, and not. http://bit.ly/aAWpCJ
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19:03 < kanzure> by depots you mean cement bunkers?
19:03 < katsmeow-afk> concrete
19:04 < QuantumG> on-orbit ones :)
19:05 < katsmeow-afk> sand - plaster - mortar - "cinder block" - cement - concrete
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20:56 < joshcryer> Memristors are going to change everything.
21:01 < bkero> RISC architecture is going to change everything.
21:01 < bkero> Yea, RISC is good.
21:03 < joshcryer> Memristors are way more simple than RISC man!
21:03 < joshcryer> And way more awesome.
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21:13 < joshcryer> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E4oq4wy2Uo
21:14 < Daeken> katsmeow-afk: i'm gonna have an epoc by early next week at the latest :D
21:15 < Daeken> err
21:15 < Daeken> kanzure, rather :P
21:15 < katsmeow-afk> epoc?
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21:15 < Daeken> ( http://emotiv.com/ )  sorry, mis-tab-completed :P
21:16 < katsmeow-afk> np
21:20 < Alystair> Daeken: you got one of those bad boys ordered
21:20 < Alystair> ?
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 08 00:00:17 2010