--- Log opened Fri Sep 10 00:00:17 2010
01:08 < jrayhawk> I just got rid of the denyNonFastForwardss's's'ss
01:09 < jrayhawk> i wonder why the configs and permissions keep getting screwed up on your repos
01:11 < jrayhawk> I think I will just blame --mirror and be done with it.
01:16 < jrayhawk> cadoodle
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04:29 < jmil> ok thanks jrayhawk 
04:29 < jmil> can you tell me how to fix: git clone git://diyhpl.us/reprap
04:30 < jmil> jrayhawk: i don't know how to re-enable cloning of the repo
04:32 < jrayhawk> horm
04:32 < jrayhawk> you appear to have been doing manual filesystem operations again
04:36 < jmil> see adrian's email, he's abandoning common sense
04:36 < jmil> you can just nuke all .git repos and turn off my account
04:37 < jrayhawk> hooray, less work for me
04:37 < jmil> thanks for trying in this experiment
04:40 < jmil> kanzure: not sure if you want to try with Adrian on your own given your ikiwiki stuff
04:53 < jrayhawk> FWIW you deleted the git-daemon-export-ok file, and you furthermore broke the g+ws permissions necessary for shared repos to work properly.
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05:43 < ybit> moin #hplusroadmap
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06:44 < ybit> who is this person: http://metavalent.com/
07:10 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
07:13 < JayDugger> ybit, the QR Code just encodes "http://metavalent.com".
07:15 < kanzure> ybit: metavalent@gmail.com i used to talk with him in 2007
07:15 < kanzure> icq is 1235064
07:19 < JayDugger> OFF-TOPIC: fenn's photo of a double rainbow from Burning Man. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fennfoot/4976869982/
07:30 < JayDugger> Quite literally only the second picture I've ever seen from Burning Man that makes me interested in attending.
07:32 < phryk> Mhh
07:32 < phryk> 13 days till implantation :3
07:32 < JayDugger> ?
07:32 < phryk> Neodymium implant ;P
07:32 < phryk> I'm getting all fuzzy inside.
07:32 < JayDugger> What will that do for you?
07:32 < phryk> Extra sense.
07:33 < phryk> Electromagnetic fluctiation
07:33 < JayDugger> Oh, magnetic and electric fields?
07:33 < phryk> Yeah
07:33 < phryk> It's gonna be awesome ^_^
07:33 < uniqanomaly__> phryk: do you plan to use anesthetic?
07:33 < phryk> Mhh your finger get's cooled
07:33 < phryk> but I'm getting some metamizol from a friend - just in case ;P
07:34 < phryk> Cutting with a scalpel shouldn't be too much to bear...
07:34 < phryk> stitching could be another story, though
07:34 < JayDugger> Do you work around electronics or voltages (0.6-34 kV)?
07:35 < M-xDaeken> phryk: what are you using coating-wise?
07:35 < phryk> I work as coder
07:35 < phryk> Harddisks don't get deleted, magnet cards not either.
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07:35 < phryk> M-xDaeken: its neodyme coated in gold coated in silicon if i'm not mistaken
07:36 < M-xDaeken> ah.  i was considering the same, but i've seen some... bad results when the silicon fails :P
07:36 < phryk> that was one of the old ones
07:36 < M-xDaeken> yea, i haven't seen any recent ones at all
07:36 < phryk> at least lepht told me, the new ones don't have that failure.
07:36 < M-xDaeken> awesome
07:36 < JayDugger> I wonder if it would have any use for electronics work...
07:37 < phryk> I think the old ones were ricecorn-shaped while the new ones are round or something like that
07:37 < phryk> maybe
07:37 < phryk> at least for electric personell
07:37 < JayDugger> That's $DAYJOB.
07:37 < phryk> they can feel cables that have running power from a distance so they won't touch them ;P
07:38 < JayDugger> Where can I learn more?
07:38 < phryk> dunno, try steve haworths site
07:38 < phryk> or if you haven't seen it, watch quinn nortons bodyhacking talk from the 23c3 ;)
07:38 < phryk> thats how I came to know it
07:38 < JayDugger> http://www.stevehaworth.com/
07:40 < JayDugger> Hmm...I wonder how people with them handle TSA at airports.
07:40 < phryk> No problems according to some faq i hav eseen somewhere :D
07:40 < M-xDaeken> Phreedom: where are you having it/them implanted, if you don't mind my asking?
07:40 < phryk> i think it was even at haworths page
07:41 < phryk> M-xDaeken: mannheim
07:41 < phryk> haworth is there on 22 and 23
07:41 < M-xDaeken> phryk: no no, i meant where at finger-wise haha
07:41 < phryk> JayDugger: the problem is mrt ;P
07:41 < phryk> oh
07:41 < phryk> left ring finger tip thingy stuff 
07:41 < M-xDaeken> ah, very cool
07:42 < M-xDaeken> man, you've got me all kinds of interested in it again :P
07:42 < JayDugger> MRT? Oh, trains. I've heard of those.
07:42 < phryk> :)
07:42 < phryk> no not trains...
07:42 < phryk> magnetic resonance thingy
07:42 < JayDugger> http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2006/23C3-1629-en-body_hacking.html
07:42 < JayDugger> Oh.
07:42 < phryk> i think it's mri in english
07:42 < JayDugger> Well, yes.
07:42 < M-xDaeken> apparently i'm not abusing my body enough for science right now... about to shave my head so i can wear an EEG full time :P
07:42 < phryk> or mri in german, can never remember that one ^^;
07:42 < phryk> M-xDaeken: heh
07:43 < phryk> I have a small wound on my arm that i keep open since 4 weeks or so...
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07:56 < kanzure> i wouldn't exactly recommend lepht as a role model
08:02 < phryk> Yeah :D
08:02 < phryk> Pretty cool as a person, though...
08:05 < phryk> btw the faq http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from-steve-haworth/magnetic-faq
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08:21 < ybit> hrm...
08:22 < ybit> can't edit my selection on the poll...
08:22 < ybit> cadmium, ...nah
08:22 < ybit> ignore my cadmium vote :)
08:23 < ybit> have to be registered...
08:28 < ybit> i like cadabra the best
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08:54 < kanzure> fenn: dave and i are presenting at manufacturing.swri.org on wednesday (2010-09-15)
08:54 < kanzure> and presumably we're going to demo 'stuff'
09:08 < drazak> 'stuff'?
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10:07 < kanzure> diybio/biobus interview http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/09/world_maker_faire_ny_diybio_on_the.html
10:08 < kanzure> or here: http://syok.sripengantin.com/2010/09/10/world-maker-faire-ny-diybio-on-the-biobus-interview/
10:08 < kanzure> biofuel stuff http://diybiology.blogspot.com/2010/09/synthetic-biology-research-on-biofuels.html
10:08 < kanzure> http://www.wordlab.com/groups/company-names/forum/topic/garage-biotech-supply-company-name/
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10:12 < kanzure> hello LiudvikasT 
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10:19 < kanzure> hello LiudvikasT 
10:19 < LiudvikasT> hi?
10:22 < Utopiah> http://stackvm.com shared VMs in the browser
10:25 < kanzure> Utopiah: women didn't get the right to vote only for you to sit on your butt!
10:25 < kanzure> Utopiah: http://doodle.com/pspwheq7xits4kb7
10:25 < kanzure> (to be fair, it's not a democratic poll, but if there's some significant trend in the end, it will help my decision)
10:27 < Utopiah> is the women thing a ref. to the recent France Maconnerie change?
10:27 < kanzure> huh? no
10:27 < kanzure> i was insinuating that you were a woman i guess
10:27 < kanzure> there's really no reason
10:32 < Utopiah> Ill vote for bishopcad then
10:44 < bkero> lol bishopcad
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10:59 < Utopiah> http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-glenn-foundation-symposium-on-aging June 2010
10:59 < kanzure> oof my home directory on davinci was 64 GB?
11:02 < M-xDaeken> kanzure: 2cd33f7a49ac1b798711cfe9000803bc
11:02 < M-xDaeken> :)
11:02 < kanzure> a commit hash?
11:03 < kanzure> is that the key?
11:03  * M-xDaeken grins
11:03 < kanzure> how'd you find it
11:04 < M-xDaeken> well, i emulated the epoc (the WDK includes a beta framework called dsf (device simulator framework) which makes it trivial to make fake hid devices), set breakpoints on all the crypto routines i found, and... got jack shit.  i was jumping blindly through references waiting for something to stand out, and... saw that in plaintext, right near the sbox :/
11:04 < M-xDaeken> and when i say plaintext, i really mean plaintext.  it's a fucking string :P
11:05 < kanzure> how were you adding breakpoints btw?
11:05 < M-xDaeken> just using the IDA debugger.  running the epoc control panel
11:05  * kanzure nods
11:05 < kanzure> cool :)
11:06 < kanzure> have you tested it
11:06 < M-xDaeken> nope, not yet.  constantly getting up looking to see if the mailman gets here with my damn epoc :P
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11:07 < M-xDaeken> ... huh.  that may be one of... many keys.
11:08 < M-xDaeken> very odd...
11:08 < M-xDaeken> that said, i know exactly where the crypto actually takes place, once my damn epoc gets here... i'm just impatient :P
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12:07 < kanzure> my $HOME was 113 GB?
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13:10 < JayDugger> Yeah, $HOME grows large if you don't move projects and documents to other servers.
13:11 < JayDugger> Anyway, good night everyone.
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13:26 < kanzure> hi clever
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16:16 < kanzure> http://sciencepark.cc/2010/09/10/looking-ahead-and-back-bioethics-commission-meets-monday-tuesday/ 
16:16 < kanzure> and http://sciencepark.cc/2010/07/16/what-the-presidents-bioethics-commission-should-say-about-synthetic-biology/
16:18 < kanzure> also mac is still looking for a name for his diybio.org company thing http://www.crowdspring.com/project/2288147_name-a-biohacking-supply-company/activity/
16:19 < kanzure> lol openpcr is his "competitor"
16:32 < kanzure> Andrew Lahser <andrew_lahser@merck.com>
16:32 < kanzure> well that's cool
17:12 < kanzure> they decided to incinerate the town for dioxin? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Beach,_Missouri
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17:24 < kanzure> http://briefing.singularityu.org/
17:32 < kanzure> web crawling api http://www.80legs.com/
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21:30 < epitron> you ever seen http://www.majestic12.co.uk/ kanzure?
21:31 < kanzure> "You guys make Armadillo Aerospace [armadilloaerospace.com] look like Lockheed Martin."
21:32 < epitron> go backhanded insults
21:33 < joshcryer> Who?
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21:38 < epitron> probably those guys from denmark he was dissing before
21:40 < kanzure> hehe solidworks fandom http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=212750&cid=17313804
21:40 < kanzure> epitron: nah, i was reading an old slashdot article
21:40 < kanzure> (not the one i just linked to)
21:41 < kanzure> they were dissing openluna.org
21:41 < kanzure> i have to say, autocad/solidworks/catia/pro engineer/unigraphics/ansys/etc. do a very good job of making CAD look impossibly complex
21:41 < kanzure> imho web browsers are more complex than CAD kernels
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21:42 < epitron> http://www.flickr.com/photos/fennfoot/4884887588/in/photostream/
21:42 < epitron> hey, taht looks handy...
21:42 < epitron> do you guys know what that app is called?
21:42 < epitron> or is it "proprietary"
21:43 < epitron> also, you're right... not many things are more complex than web browsers
21:43 < epitron> i was blown away when i downloaded the chrome source code and it was like 2 gigs
21:43 < epitron> it was a freakin' monster
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21:44 < epitron> i still don't understand why they're that complex... i guess it's all the legacy crap?
21:44 < katsmeow-afk> re: burning that town : When the original US EPA inventory of dioxin sources was done in 1987, incineration represented over 80% of known dioxin sources. 
21:44 < kanzure> epitron: i had the same feeling when i downloaded mozilla/firefox
21:45 < dustbin> I'd love to see a pure html5 browser
21:45 < epitron> last time i looked at mozilla's source was 1999
21:45 < epitron> NEVER AGAIN
21:45 < kanzure> yeah :(
21:45 < epitron> dustbin: hmmm! that's a cool idea
21:45 < dustbin> it would be kinda pointless
21:45 < dustbin> but cool
21:45 < epitron> yeah...
21:45 < epitron> radical simplification
21:45 < kanzure> epitron: that was randal koene i bet, probably some emacs thing
21:45 < epitron> eww emacs
21:46 < epitron> i was hoping it was a curses app :(
21:46 < kanzure> ncurses4life rep-re-sent
21:46 < epitron> BUUYA
21:46 < epitron> s/u/o/i
21:46 < kanzure> so yeah, i think that people just work CAD up to be this huge monstrous thing
21:46 < epitron> g
21:46 < kanzure> it really helps keep people out of their business i guess
21:46 < epitron> well, all apps get feature creep
21:46 < epitron> everyone needs some little extra thing added
21:47 < epitron> apps that don't design a plugin system from the beginning have that issue
21:47 < kanzure> "what!? surfaces? oh man that sounds really hard!"
21:47 < kanzure> "oh man, merging surfaces? passing lines through surfaces?! oh man i haven't done that since.. calculus 2"
21:47 < epitron> wha? :)
21:47 < kanzure> (in reality you should have done that pre-per-pre-pre-calculus-2)
21:47 < epitron> i've never used a CAD app... what are you talking about?
21:47 < kanzure> s/per/pre/
21:47 < epitron> i've used 3D modelling apps
21:47 < kanzure> you've never used CAD
21:47 < kanzure> what 3D modelling apps?
21:48 < epitron> 3dsR5 for dos... 3dsmax a little... maya a little... blender a little
21:48 < kanzure> yeah i used to be into 3d modelling.. 3dsmax, maya, blender, anima8or
21:48 < epitron> zbrush
21:48 < kanzure> totally not the same though, one sec
21:48 < dustbin> ever used houdini?
21:48 < kanzure> no
21:48 < epitron> but what's this calculus 2 thing? you need to manually pass lines through surfaces in CAD apps? :)
21:49 < kanzure> no
21:49 < kanzure> i mean the underlying math library
21:49 < epitron> ah
21:49 < kanzure> that's what's supposedly "hard" about writing a CAD kernel
21:49 < epitron> right
21:49 < kanzure> epitron: try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znlpxo-mWBE
21:49 < epitron> it just sounded a lot like the pattern i've seen in every app ever
21:49 < epitron> as it gets more popular, and supports more customers, they add more buttons/menu-items/macros
21:49 < epitron> until it's this crazy pile of shit
21:50 < kanzure> nah, that's not what's going on
21:50 < kanzure> although some CAD systems are like that
21:50 < kanzure> god that video sucks
21:50 < epitron> usually they have to add those features because the users have no other way to do it... there's no scripting engine...
21:50 < epitron> so the users are stuck
21:50 < epitron> so the softwrae developer goes, "meh we'll just add all these things they'll use once every 6 months"
21:50 < kanzure> nah, all the major CAD packages have some form of scripting
21:51 < epitron> i see ...
21:51 < epitron> okay, watching video :)
21:51 < kanzure> the video sucks
21:51 < kanzure> let me find something better
21:51 < epitron> OMG did you know what CAD stands for?!
21:51 < epitron> this video is awesome
21:51 < kanzure> :(
21:52 < kanzure> damn it i'll just use a pythonOCC example
21:53 < joshcryer> just use pirates solidworks
21:53 < joshcryer> pirated
21:53 < epitron> i don't wanna know about CAD that badly :)
21:53 < kanzure> joshcryer: i'm trying to find a video to explain to epitron what the difference is between CAD and 3D mesh modeling
21:53 < kanzure> although i guess a video will not really explain it
21:53 < kanzure> since it will just look like a 3D object
21:53 < epitron> apparently it's gotta do with constraints
21:54 < epitron> and probably physics
21:54 < kanzure> as you click around or script up your part, imagine you have the full history tree of operations
21:54 < epitron> okay
21:54 < kanzure> and then being able to change the parameters for each dimension in that history tree
21:54 < epitron> okay...
21:54 < kanzure> but also with constraints to make sure you don't contradict yourself
21:54 < epitron> wait.. history is linear
21:54 < epitron> what's the tree aspect?
21:54 < kanzure> maybe you go off to work on different surfaces
21:55 < epitron> ah, right
21:55 < epitron> so it's histories for all your subparts
21:55 < joshcryer> heh
21:55 < kanzure> ok maybe this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7jc03F1Q08#t=4m20sec
21:55 < kanzure> also the underlying mathematical model of the geometry makes a 'closed surface'
21:55 < kanzure> (using NURBS usually)
21:56 < epitron> that's a low-res-ass video
21:56 < kanzure> if you squint it looks just like typical 3D modelling tools i guess
21:57 < kanzure> but it's the underlying data structure that matters most
21:57 < kanzure> (i.e. it's not just a bundle of triangles)
21:57 < epitron> awesome
21:57 < epitron> i remember having to extrude things in 3DSR5
21:57 < epitron> :D
21:57 < kanzure> yeah i'm happy with that link, that should at least confer some aspect of wtf i'm talking about
21:59 < epitron> they call these things "sketches".. did they call 'em that because of ivan sutherland's sketchpad?
21:59 < epitron> i feel like there's some similarities here
22:00 < kanzure> draftsmen probably called it a sketch too.. pretty common term :P
22:00 < epitron> aha
22:00 < epitron> i'm just watching this "how to make a bolt" video...
22:01 < epitron> that's exactly what sutherland's first presentation was
22:05 < joshcryer> Blender has very similar features to that video.
22:07 < kanzure> as i said, the underlying data structure is more important
22:08 < joshcryer> That's what exporters are for.
22:08 < kanzure> i think you fail at programming, sir
22:08 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cadfaq
22:09 < joshcryer> I read your CAD FAQ and do not consider "ha ha ha don't get me started :(" a sufficient reason. 
22:09 < kanzure> ok have fun turning mspaint into CAD
22:10 < kanzure> (i'm not saying blender is mspaint but that with enough effort any software can do anything)
22:23 -!- enkiam [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:28 < joshcryer> export -> dxf/dwg
22:32 < joshcryer> or export -> stl
22:32 -!- enkiam [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:33 < joshcryer> only real difference is that blender (and other 3d graphics apps) allow you to make non-closed / broken meshes
22:33 < joshcryer> which any competent designer shouldn't do
22:35 < kanzure> joshcryer: sorry, but stl is still irrelevant here
22:39 < joshcryer> OK, if you say so.
22:40 < kanzure> well, 
22:40 < kanzure> do you have evidence to the contrary?
22:54 -!- jennifer2 [~jennifer@c-67-180-253-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:55 < joshcryer> What's your problem with STL?
22:57 < joshcryer> STL is trivially loaded into a CAM and is sufficient to get a huge variety of jobs done.
23:02 < kanzure> i think you don't understand the difference though between a parametric solid geometry model and meshes
23:02 < kanzure> solid doesn't mean "no leaks"
23:05 < joshcryer> From the point of view of a CAM there's absolutely no difference between a solid CSG cube and a fully closed cube mesh with the normals outside. None.
23:05 < kanzure> s what
23:05 < kanzure> *so what
23:06 < kanzure> going from a geometry model to a mesh is just a matter of tessellation so i don't see why that's important
23:11 -!- enkiam [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:16 < joshcryer> You haven't established what's wrong with STL.
23:19 < kanzure> it's the wrong format, that's what's wrong
23:19 < kanzure> it doesn't preserve the same information at all
23:19 < kanzure> it's like telling me i should distribute source code to you by sending you a compiled binary blob for software
23:22 < QuantumG> that sounds like a reasonable analogy
23:22 < joshcryer> What information do you think is relevant to me that an .stl file cannot convey?
23:22 < QuantumG> I wish more game art was modelled in CSG
23:22 < kanzure> QuantumG: because i spend all my time thinking about this :(
23:22 < QuantumG> cause you could infinitely scale it
23:22 < kanzure> QuantumG: yeah that'd be hawt
23:22 < kanzure> you can scale STL files too of course by some common multiplier
23:22 < QuantumG> and 10 years from now a model could be generated for hardware available then without having to redo the design process
23:23 < kanzure> "redo the design process" you mean rehiring eager asians to do 200 hours of modelling work?
23:23 < QuantumG> yeah.. pushing polygons
23:24 < kanzure> joshcryer: boundary representation, CSG, nurbs, curves, circles, arcs, parabolas, mathematical objects
23:24 < kanzure> surfaces other than triangles
23:24 < QuantumG> now, I'm not necessarily saying that I want a model description that can be automatically converted into a mesh/texture/bump-map/light-map/whatever else, automatically.. that'd be nice, but I'm realistic.
23:24 < kanzure> QuantumG: povray? :P
23:25 < kanzure> actually i don't think anybody has written a povray->STL thing
23:25 < joshcryer> kanzure, and those are relevant to me, HOW? My CAM doesn't give a shit, indeed, you're making it harder for my CAM to properly do shit since it has to do all sorts of conversion.
23:25 < kanzure> especially since povray has lots of other additional features
23:25 < QuantumG> you should be able to accurately represent a high resolution surface.. then semi-automatically transform that into whatever is appropriate for the application.
23:26 < kanzure> joshcryer: maybe your cam is just a load of shit then
23:26 < kanzure> sorry but mathematical objects are actually relevant here
23:26 < joshcryer> kanzure, maybe my cam is practical.
23:26 < kanzure> uh
23:26 < joshcryer> kanzure, and your method can't even scan shit.
23:26 < QuantumG> maybe your CAM today is not going to be your CAM tomorrow
23:26 < kanzure> "scan shit" what?
23:26 < QuantumG> and so when you switch CAM you're going to need to make a new model
23:27 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: leaving]
23:27 < kanzure> look, it doesn't sound like you understood my object/source code analogy
23:27 < kanzure> CAM doesn't even need to be a part of the tool chain if you do the source code part right :)
23:28 < kanzure> QuantumG: is there a way for me to make this more obvious
23:29 < QuantumG> perhaps explain some non-CAM applications
23:29 < kanzure> what?
23:29 < QuantumG> impact analysis is a common one
23:29 < QuantumG> radiation analysis is good for space-assets
23:29 < kanzure> no i mean "binary vs. code"
23:30 < QuantumG> well, it's not necessarily a true analogy.  often people make polygon models instead of CSG because it's easier to make polygon models... that's not the same with binaries.
23:31 < kanzure> sometimes people code in assembly because it's easier
23:31 < kanzure> seems about right to me?
23:31 < kanzure> except that compiled-to-assembly is usually incomprehensible
23:31 < QuantumG> who does that?
23:31 < kanzure> the embedded guys?
23:31 < QuantumG> it's not cause it's easier that they do it.
23:31 < kanzure> heh true
23:32 < QuantumG> often it's because they're archaic :)
23:32 < QuantumG> I expect it's the same with CAM people
23:32 < kanzure> "you're not fired, you're just deprecated"
23:32 < QuantumG> hacking the g-code cause it makes 'em feel like a man
23:32 < kanzure> well it does
23:33 < epitron> so manly
23:33 < epitron> you know what kinda amazed me...
23:33 < kanzure> puts (more) hair on your chest
23:33 < epitron> how rapidly people could make new campaigns for L4D2 given all the game assets
23:33 < epitron> they just pump that shit out
23:33 < epitron> there's like 20 awesome new campaigns
23:33 < epitron> free!
23:33 < kanzure> huh? you mean ludum dare?
23:34 < epitron> what?
23:34 < kanzure> oh wait i fail
23:34 < kanzure> ignore me
23:34 < kanzure> i've been living under a rock for a while so i haven't played left for dead
23:34 < epitron> anyhow, i was thinking about what you were saying about modelling game assets in solid geometry
23:34 < epitron> (QuantumG)
23:35 < epitron> and thought about creating a giant database of real-world "Things" that people could use in their games
23:35 < epitron> so they don't have to spend 3 years and hire a team of artists
23:35 < QuantumG> I've been saying this for years now :)
23:35 < epitron> they could just slap shit together
23:35 < kanzure> sort of a universe.. of things.. oh wait, thingiverse is just STL files
23:35 < epitron> what's an STL file?
23:35 < QuantumG> people still don't get it.. it's all about pushing the polygons
23:35 < kanzure> (although sometimes openscad files, which, can only be pushed to STL)
23:35 < kanzure> stl is a collection of triangles
23:36 < epitron> thingiverse is kinda ... not the same as what i'm talkin' about
23:36 < QuantumG> open source game guys try to make free models.. pushing triangles.. and when they're done they've spent 12 months producing a model that will have "enough" polygons for 12 more months and then no-one wants to use their model anymore cause it's passe
23:36 < kanzure> how about http://tracepartsonline.net/
23:36 < kanzure> or http://3dpartstream.net/
23:36 < kanzure> (both are bullshit though)
23:37 < epitron> so left4dead modders have: every asset from every world, all the sounds, a giant array of snippets of dialogue spoken by the characters (including extra things that weren't in the game that were put there just for modders)
23:37 < QuantumG> pushing triangles is like the most labor intensive process available
23:37 < epitron> and it's incredibly productive
23:37 < QuantumG> and yet that's what everyone does
23:37 < epitron> yeah, totally
23:37 < epitron> working in triangles is pretty stupid
23:38 < epitron> it's kinda like programming
23:38 < kanzure> voxels are the REAL future
23:38 < epitron> we encode our idea into source code
23:38 < epitron> then we push around the source code
23:38 < epitron> instead of storing the idea and generating code from it
23:38  * kanzure nods
23:38 < kanzure> this is why parametric modelling is the best thing since awesome sauce
23:39 < epitron> intentional software is neat too :)
23:39 < kanzure> is that where mommy and daddy.. ?
23:39 < kanzure> i mean is it like planned pregnancy?
23:39 < QuantumG> imagine you had a program that could produce trees (I know the program exists)
23:39 < epitron> whoa
23:39 < QuantumG> you can tweak various parameters
23:40 < QuantumG> out comes various trees
23:40 < epitron> sept 8, Eric Anderson joins intentsoft
23:40 < epitron> http://intentsoft.com/news/pr_09-08-10a.html
23:40 < QuantumG> great, so now do we need a program that can produce cars?
23:40 < epitron> kanzure: you don't know intentsoft?
23:40 < QuantumG> you tweak various parameters, out comes various cars.
23:40 < kanzure> no
23:40 < QuantumG> how about vases?
23:40 < QuantumG> or streetlights?
23:40 < kanzure> QuantumG: so i've been working on a tiny python-based CAD kernel for a while now
23:40 < QuantumG> or, humans.
23:40 < kanzure> and i've been trying to figure out a name
23:40 < epitron> charles simonyi, this genius from xerox parc who came up with wysiwy in the 70's, has been working on this for like 10 years
23:41 < QuantumG> it's all one program
23:41 < epitron> g
23:41 < kanzure> so far i want lolcad, or tinycad if i can get a gladiator match with the guy who stole that name
23:41 < epitron> wysiwyg
23:41 < kanzure> QuantumG: you should vote on a name though http://www.doodle.com/pspwheq7xits4kb7
23:41 < epitron> he was microsoft's senior software architect
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23:41 < QuantumG> you should have a program that you feed in a specification, then you can tweak the parameters, and produce output however you need it for your game engine
23:42 -!- killall-9 [~paulc@188.25.116.217] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:42 < QuantumG> epitron: I know too much about the guy.. flew to space on the Soyuz.. stayed at the ISS.. he was also Martha Stewart's boyfriend for a while (may still be, I don't know)
23:42 < epitron> ewww
23:42 < epitron> i didn't need to know that
23:42 < epitron> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/simonyi96intentional.html
23:43 < epitron> that original paper there is a pretty good overview
23:43 < epitron> he's written tons of crap since then, but that's the best crystallization of the idea i believe
23:43 < epitron> ah crap, it's broken
23:44 < epitron> QuantumG: so you like the idea of using intentsoft for games?
23:44 < QuantumG> I haven't looked at it :)
23:44 < kanzure> this sounds like marketing
23:44 < epitron> cause that's the first thing that occurred to me when i read simonyi's edge interview in 2003
23:44 < epitron> kanzure: uh
23:44 < kanzure> you read edge.org?
23:44 < kanzure> i find this hard to believe
23:44 < epitron> yeah man
23:44 < epitron> why?
23:45 < epitron> citeseer is broken :\
23:45 < kanzure> arent there a bajillion mirrors of citeseer
23:45 < epitron> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.19.6404&rep=rep1&type=pdf
23:45 < epitron> there we go
23:46 < epitron> yeah, like google scholar :)
23:46  * epitron gives citeseer the finger
23:47 < epitron> http://www.edge.org/digerati/simonyi/simonyi_p1.html
23:47 < epitron> that's less dry :)
23:48 < epitron> but yeah, simonyi has tried to explain intentsoft was "CAD for software" on a couple occasions
23:48 < epitron> although he stopped calling it that, probably because it mislead people
23:49 < kanzure> sounds like uml
23:49 < kanzure> (i still haven't read it)
23:49 < epitron> UML is nothing like this
23:49 < jrayhawk> I still think pov should be the one true 3d format
23:49 < kanzure> jrayhawk: is that you being crazy?
23:49 < epitron> kanzure: intentsoft is a "language workbench"
23:49 < jrayhawk> Oh probably.
23:49 < epitron> it lets you capture your program ideas before you code
23:49 < epitron> then you write things that convert those into code
23:49 < epitron> so that later on you can just modify the ideas
23:50 < epitron> (ideas = intentions)
23:50 < epitron> so you just go "download file"
23:50 < kanzure> how is that not like uml's code generation stuff
23:50 < epitron> instead of going "shit.. okay so how do i download a file"
23:50 < epitron> UML is a terrible abomination, that's how!
23:50 < epitron> also UML can't round-trip
23:50 < epitron> the intentional editor doesn't let you edit source code directly
23:50 < kanzure> that's what i am implying, this sounds awful so far :)
23:50 < kanzure> but i haven't read it
23:50 < epitron> what you see on your screen is a transformation from the storage format to your screen
23:51 < epitron> when you edit something, it gets referse-transformed back to the storage format
23:51 < epitron> then the storage can be converted to soruce code by another set of transformatiosn
23:51 < epitron> so you have transformations from storage<->screen and storage<->binary
23:51 < epitron> well, not back from binary
23:51 < epitron> :)
23:51 < kanzure> this is the same language the uml salesmen use
23:51 < epitron> oh jesus 
23:52 < epitron> nevermind
23:52 < epitron> i hate prejudiced assholes
23:52 < kanzure> nah i'm just a tired asshole (that's why i haven't read it yet)
23:53 < jrayhawk> Hello, ma'am, a busy housewife like you needs more abstraction and automation in your life, and what better way to abstract and automate than with our new patented-formula UML.
23:54  * epitron burns UML
23:55 < QuantumG> all the house-wives call me their "domain expert" .. booyah
--- Log closed Sat Sep 11 00:00:17 2010