--- Log opened Tue Sep 14 00:00:07 2010
--- Day changed Tue Sep 14 2010
00:00 < CryptoQuick> i recognized it after seeing Rama
00:00 < QuantumG> indeed, it's great stuff
00:00 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: and yeah, what if that planet had resources you could exploit in order to make more spaceships
00:01 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, yeah, ultimately
00:02 < joshcryer> here's a video of noctis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0U80Hupaz0
00:02 < CryptoQuick> ultimately. well, josh, just know, I'm doing the same thing you want to do. voxel models aren't a real hindrance to graphical quality.
00:02 < joshcryer> Whole galaxy in a rudimentary rules system.
00:02 < QuantumG> to me the concept is literally: here's a whole planet that would take you a lifetime to explore.. and it's detailed enough that you'd *want* to take a lifetime to expore it, oh and it's in a solar system, and a galaxy, and you have access to it all.
00:02 < joshcryer> ie, no humans will be able to fully explore Noctis and chart all the planets.
00:03 < QuantumG> the detail doesn't actually exist until you get close enough for it to matter of course
00:03 < joshcryer> QuantumG, exactly, and you plug a scripting system on top of it to make games and whatnot, and you have a fully functional Second Life that destroys everything.
00:03 < QuantumG> then it gets stored in the cloud so that if someone else looks at the same place they see the same thing.
00:03 < CryptoQuick> did I mention that Nanoblok does use the cloud?
00:05 < joshcryer> QuantumG, and because everything is a deterministic mathematical equation, updating the cloud takes up almost no space.
00:05 < QuantumG> yeah, just the random seed
00:06 < QuantumG> and the coordinates of the zoom :)
00:06 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: also, you shouldn't need a scripting system in a game that attempts to simulate real-world physics
00:06 < joshcryer> Instead of, like Second Life, saying "here's a 40 MB model for that motorcycle" you say "here's a 50 kilobyte seed for a given motorcycle using X components."
00:06 < CryptoQuick> :T
00:07 < QuantumG> second life does do pretty good parametric modelling
00:07 < QuantumG> it's just the textures that are not parametric most the time
00:07 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, if you wanted, say, to make an FPS on the hills of Elysium on Planet Goldar in the Flipping Insane system, you'd want a way to deal with the logic. 
00:07 < CryptoQuick> QuantumG: really? I thought it was all just primitive shapes, not even real CSG
00:07 < QuantumG> although I believe they do have parametric models
00:07 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: are we talking about a game engine or a game?
00:07 < QuantumG> yes, it is primitive shapes.. but those shapes are parametric
00:09 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, only incidentially.
00:09 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, ideally it'd be suitable for actual open hardware stuff.
00:10 < joshcryer> So idiots can go play pretend on magical planets with unlimited resources and god powers while we in the real world scrounge up materials to actually put various components that the system can make into machines and make 'em.
00:12 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: yeah, so, you have people who are meticulous and take the time to make things that work, and other people who use those things?
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00:13 < joshcryer> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims
00:13 < QuantumG> I think realistic games could provide proof-of-concept playgrounds to rough out concepts
00:14 < joshcryer> imho much of Second Life is composed of model meshes.
00:14 < QuantumG> kind like flying a trajectory in Orbiter to show that it can be done before you break out the celestial mechanics
00:14 < joshcryer> I know even with high bandwidth some areas take forever and an eternity to load.
00:14 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: no, it's comprised of primitives with properties, it's not transmitting meshes over the network.
00:15 < CryptoQuick> even what you linked to are primitives, just with a mesh deformation texture... I wonder if they're doing that with shaders.
00:18 < joshcryer> Just read the technical explaination, gotcha.
00:19 < joshcryer> It must be the deformation textures that take forever to load?
00:19 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: I'm not sure how often people use those
00:19 < QuantumG> or just the textures in general
00:22 < joshcryer> http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/
00:22 < QuantumG> old papers are old
00:22 < fenn> long papers are long
00:23 < joshcryer> bah, they update
00:23 < joshcryer> We show that parametric context-sensitive L-systems with affine geometry interpretation provide a succinct description of some of the most fundamental algorithms of geometric modeling of curves. Examples include the Lane-Riesenfeld algorithm for generating B-splines, the de Casteljau algorithm for generating Bézier curves, and their extensions to rational curves. Our results generalize the previously reported geometric-modeling applications of L
00:23 < joshcryer> That's new to me.
00:26 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, ideally, and this is just me, but eventually maybe it could evolve into a tool that makes it so that your average consumer can also design their own stuff.
00:26 < CryptoQuick> sounds cool. you should do it :)
00:27 < joshcryer> I AM NOT SMART ENOUGH
00:27 < joshcryer> but imma try??
00:27 < fenn> cool, /me just googled "auxon" http://discovermagazine.com/1995/oct/robotbuildthysel569
00:27 < joshcryer> bare minimum make a minecraft killer so I can get rich!
00:27 < CryptoQuick> :)
00:28 < joshcryer> fenn, ! that's the *exact* article that prompted me to email Lackner about his paper, back when, you know, email was actually used for professional stuff :P
00:28 < CryptoQuick> read it
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00:31 < QuantumG> I dunno if everyone knows this, but there's a number of plant types which have had their genome graphed with L-systems
00:31 < QuantumG> as in, you feed the genome into an algorithm and it spits out a bunch of parameters for an L-system that accurately predicts the phenotype
00:32 < joshcryer> "I read an article entitled "Robot, Build Thyself" which discussed your and Wendt's work on a paper entitled "Exponential Growth of Large Self-Reproducing Machine Systems" in the publication "Mathematical and Computer Modeling" (Volume 21 Issue 10, 1995). I thought of contacting you, to see if you could make the paper available to me."
00:32 < joshcryer> Man that reads like a Nigerian email, haha. I was (am) such a lamer.
00:32 < fenn> noctis reminds me of Love (or is it the other way around)
00:32 < joshcryer> QuantumG, that's remarkable, I didn't know that.
00:32 < QuantumG> icanhazcopyofyouspaper?
00:34 < fenn> oh, and you're not the first to have this idea of a realistic MMO simulator game thingy to evolve real designs http://fenn.freeshell.org/smirf/smirf.html
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00:34 < joshcryer> fenn, haha, I didn't think I was!
00:34 < joshcryer> I thought Spore was going to do it!
00:35 < fenn> yeah too bad about that eh
00:35 < joshcryer> But apparently Epic threw out the procedural guys and made it lame.
00:35 < CryptoQuick> Epic?
00:36 < fenn> QuantumG: source for statement about L-systems?
00:36 < CryptoQuick> Spore was the last Maxis game
00:36 < joshcryer> My bad.
00:37 < QuantumG> fenn: believe it or not, I learnt it at university.. and like everything I learnt at university, it was presented as fact without a reference :)
00:37 < joshcryer> I thought Spore was a Tim Sweeny game but I confused him with Will Wright.
00:37 < fenn> looking at http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1632.full
00:37 < CryptoQuick> also, my bad, Maxis apparently has been taken over by EA for a long time now
00:37 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: I can see how you could do that, yeah, they're kinda similar
00:38 < fenn> his approach describes plants as a set of modules, each of which has a single mathematical description. Variables such as growth rate, genetic regulatory networks, and so on can be incorporated into these modules and the model run to "grow" the virtual plant (Fig. 2). The effects of mutations and gene interactions on growth can then be described according to the growth model. This provides a robust universal framework for describing growth and develop
00:38 < CryptoQuick> actually, Will Wright strikes me more like a Sid Meier
00:39 < fenn> i'm still not sure exactly wtf that meant (l-system thing, though comparing video game directors is vague also)
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00:40 < joshcryer> fenn, heh, yeah I tried to take it to a diff channel, sorry
00:40 < QuantumG> cross conversations :)
00:41 < QuantumG> originally came from us discussing automatic generation of massive terrains and l-system type approaches to non-botanic objects.
00:41 < joshcryer> QuantumG why didn't you make this already dude
00:41 < joshcryer> :P
00:41 < CryptoQuick> sorry, I had that one muted
00:41 < joshcryer> you're in software, I'm in construction
00:42 < joshcryer> who is going to do it quicker / more properly? ;P
00:42 < QuantumG> cause computational geometry makes my brain sad
00:43 < QuantumG> speaking of which
00:43 < QuantumG> some day I'm gunna have to figure out what the TLI-pad format is
00:44 < CryptoQuick> is that like TL;DR format?
00:44 < QuantumG> and convert the Apollo data into a form that my orbit visualization software can handle :)
00:44 < CryptoQuick> that would be sweet :)
00:47 < QuantumG> speaking of ancient Apollo era nonsense.. I should really put together a "stop listening to retired astronauts - they're not experts" video
00:47 < QuantumG> the stupidity Cernan came out with at that Senate hearing was scary
00:48 < CryptoQuick> oh yeah, was reading this:
00:48 < CryptoQuick> http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1694/1
00:48 < CryptoQuick> was sayan' that we didn't learned anythin from Apollo
00:48 < QuantumG> if that's a space review article that came out today, I won't be clicking
00:48 < QuantumG> but I'll be sure to agree with you :)
00:49 < QuantumG> SpaceX certainly learnt a lot from Apollo.. but didn't take it as gospel
00:50 < QuantumG> Apollo era astronaut impersonation:  SpaceX doesn't have an aircraft carrier!! How do they think they're going to do splashdown capsule recovery???
00:50 < CryptoQuick> heh
00:50 < CryptoQuick> that made me lol just a little
00:51 < joshcryer> heh
00:54 < QuantumG> they don't know what they don't know!!
00:54 < QuantumG> ^- that's a direct quote btw
00:55 < CryptoQuick> they don't know what the risks are!
00:55 < CryptoQuick> like they don't have actual money on the line
00:56 < CryptoQuick> I also like how he said that right after the -successful- launch of Falcon 9
00:57 < QuantumG> I like the way he called Bolden a liar but made sure Bolden was out of the room first
00:59 < joshcryer> I like how this channel has become a congolmerate of #space and #gamedev.
01:00 < QuantumG> can't plus up without em
01:01 < CryptoQuick> it's remarkable how much software is vital to making, say, a bed or chair
01:03 < CryptoQuick> "you want a place to sleep? hold on, let me write a NURBS modeler"
01:05 < CryptoQuick> I say, they should just make everything out of little cubes, all the same size
01:05 < CryptoQuick> a rubber cube, a plastic cube, a steel cube, a beer cube
01:05 < CryptoQuick> and we'll glue them together to make everyday objects
01:05 < joshcryer> FUCK VOXELS
01:05 < joshcryer> :P
01:06 < fenn> elastons
01:06 < fenn> hm is this thing on?
01:06 < joshcryer> btw I threw my game idea out there in case someone wanted to make it before I did so I wouldn't have to do any work.
01:07 < QuantumG> you're gunna need an l-system or some other descriptive system to say how to place the voxels anyway
01:07 < joshcryer> so please feel free to produce a toolset that allows prodcedural modelling of all things.
01:07 < CryptoQuick> :)
01:07 < QuantumG> http://www.live365.com/stations/apollo_11_oda
01:07 < QuantumG> 1 minute to ignition!
01:07 < QuantumG> less than
01:07 < QuantumG> ok, that was a lot less
01:07 < QuantumG> ignition confirmed
01:08 < CryptoQuick> does it start from the beginning, or is it streaming?
01:08 < CryptoQuick> I mean, like, live
01:08 < CryptoQuick> 'live'
01:08 < QuantumG> it's streaming
01:09 < QuantumG> you can't pause
01:09 < CryptoQuick> it's saying they're in the elevator
01:09 < joshcryer> you can pick a paylist can't you
01:09 < QuantumG> oh, I guess you can then
01:09 < CryptoQuick> I don't think it pauses, but it starts over :V
01:10 < CryptoQuick> augh, i screwed it up
01:10 < CryptoQuick> flash is so bad :T
01:10 < QuantumG> 5 1/2 minute burn for TLI.. that's nuts
01:11 < QuantumG> and they're talking about ft/sec
01:11 < QuantumG> and nautical miles
01:11 < CryptoQuick> haha :)
01:11 < QuantumG> just wanna smack em
01:11 < fenn> ok my browser is screwed but i managed to find the movie id, so (piecing together the url) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcV1qWaVhe4
01:11 < fenn> for you voxel haters
01:12 < CryptoQuick> fenn: thiis is blowing my mind
01:13 < CryptoQuick> that's one nasty helix
01:14 < fenn> i love the cheese/modeling clay demos at the end
01:14 < QuantumG> 3.64 km/s delta-v for the TLI.. not bad
01:14 < fenn> there are more videos from that user worth watching.. the fluid dynamics stuff
01:15 < CryptoQuick> QuantumG: I like how they're making a big deal about the LH2 on the Saturn V
01:15 < QuantumG> CryptoQuick: I like that they had a H2 valve failure and it's just "we'll just bypass this valve"
01:15 < CryptoQuick> hah
01:17 < CryptoQuick> LH2 is more trouble than it's worth; at least, in this point in time
01:17 < QuantumG> but so's heavy lift
01:18 < QuantumG> they were brute forcing their way there
01:18 < CryptoQuick> heh
01:18 < CryptoQuick> true
01:18 < CryptoQuick> though, the size queen in me gets very excited at the prospect of Falcon X
01:20 < QuantumG> I wonder if SpaceX will stagnate as soon as they try to do Raptor
01:21 < QuantumG> they'll probably pour more money into it than manned Dragon
01:21 < CryptoQuick> bahaha
01:21 < CryptoQuick> LH2! it's a curse!
01:21 < CryptoQuick> it'll just be another EELV, an Atlas V
01:23 < joshcryer> 'night ya'll.
01:23 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: goodnight
01:24 < CryptoQuick> or should i say
01:24 < CryptoQuick> SWEET DREAMS
01:24 < joshcryer> get noctis dude it's cool
01:24 < CryptoQuick> mmf.
01:24 < CryptoQuick> I think I'll get Civ V instead :P
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02:44 < jrayhawk> astronauts are ex-military. the military inculcates that will has supremecy over reason. it is not surprising that astronauts are not big on rationality.
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02:47 < jrayhawk> To be fair, there wasn't all that much "reason" to go to the moon. It was largely geopolitical posturing.
02:48 < clever> each country showing off the size of there 'rocket'?
02:56 < jrayhawk> Showing off the surpremecy of their collective will.
02:57 < jrayhawk> Now, obviously it's easy to point at an element of will-oriented thinking such as an astronaut and call it irrational, but the more interesting question is "is the will-oriented thinking bad?"
02:57 < jrayhawk> was it bad to go to the moon?
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03:53 < killall-9> jrayhawk: it was very good at least to prove that we have the technology to do it if there is a need
03:53 < killall-9> jrayhawk: currently there is no need to do it again
03:54 < killall-9> (or at least not one to justify the price)
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04:37  * Utopiah wonders if anybody is using a hash of his DNA sequence to sign his commits
04:38 < Daeken> hah
04:41 < killall-9> lol
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04:44 < killall-9> seriously, one has many DNA sequences in the body
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05:53 < drazak> my cvhemistry teacher and I are ha ving a disagreement
05:53 < drazak> is the aromatic group in penicillin G a benzyl group or a phenyl group?
05:53 < drazak> I say phenyl he says benzyl
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06:10 < nsh>  .gs penicillin * aromatic group
06:10 < nsh> .gs penicillin * aromatic group
06:11 < drazak> mhm
06:11 < drazak> it's a benzyl
06:11 < drazak> after reading a bit more about it
06:11 < nsh> hey, now at least you don't have to switch places and end up grading papers while he's sleeping wiht all the hot chicks in your class
06:12 < drazak> hahahaha
06:12 < drazak> they only sleep with me because I help them with their organic chemistry
06:29 < nsh> badumptsh!
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07:08 < kanzure> emotiv replies: http://emotiv.com/forum/forum15/topic879/
07:12 < Utopiah> next topic they'll insist that worldwide economic crisis is due to Daeken 
07:16 < kanzure> http://www.kurzweilai.net/emotiv-epoc-eeg-headset-hacked
07:16 < Daeken> well, there was that one time.
07:16 < kanzure> ^ on kurzweilai.net
07:16 < Daeken> :P
07:16 < kanzure> aw drat
07:16 < kanzure> that's one of the questions i should have included in the article
07:16 < kanzure> "so how does it feel to be the reason for our current economic crisis"
07:16 < kanzure> or "how does it feel to kill babies"
07:17 < Daeken> hahah
07:19 < nsh> has anyone got one of these headsets?
07:20 < nsh> i'm very curious as to how good the resolution/sensitivity is
07:20 < kanzure> i had one for a while, sent it to a friend
07:20 < kanzure> the resolution is crap
07:20 < nsh> could you actually control something with reasonable accuracy?
07:20 < kanzure> what is reasonable
07:20 < nsh> could i press the start button on a windows computer at typical grandmother screen resolution?
07:20 < nsh> without 6 months of training
07:21 < kanzure> in my experience i had to have about three hours of training but even then nothing worked well
07:21 < kanzure> so much more than 3 hours..
07:22 < nsh> mm
07:24 < nsh> [[[
07:24 < nsh> All data is transmitted in packets at 128 samples per second - so the raw EEG and gyro resolution is about 7ms. 
07:24 < nsh> Internally (within the headset hardware) the EEG data is sampled at 2048Hz - this is heavily filtered and down-sampled to exclude mains aliasing and other noise before transmission at 128 samples per second. 
07:24 < nsh> Most detections update approximately 4 times per second, except for eyeblinks and eye movements which are detected with less than 100ms latency. 
07:24 < nsh> Impedance measurements (headset contact quality lights) are also updated 4 times per second.
07:24 < nsh> ]] --http://www.emotiv.com/forum/forum4/topic101/
07:24 < nsh> oh, so it does eye tracking too?
07:24 < nsh> or could be hacked to do so with some accuracy?
07:25 < archels> nsh, afaik these headsets tend to rely more on gyroscope and myoelectric data than EEG data.
07:25 < nsh> and what are the consequences of this?
07:26 < archels> It degrades for the BCI concept.
07:26 < nsh> BCI?
07:26 < archels> May as well use a Wii controller.
07:26 < archels> brain-computer interface
07:26 < nsh> mm
07:26 < archels> Only the EEG is "true" BCI imho.
07:26 < kanzure> only microelectrode arrays are true BCI :D
07:27 < archels> fMRI is also very much true BCI
07:27 < kanzure> well, one-directional but yeah :)
07:27  * nsh thinks
07:27 < archels> EEG is reading neural signals directly from the brain, so it really is a direct BCI. It just has absolutely terrible spatial resolution.
07:28 < archels> fMRI and HEG "read" the neural impulses more indirectly, but still as a direct consequence of neural activity.
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07:36 < archels> In a more gray area, there's "subvocal" myoelectric recording. Anyone seen that?
07:38 < Utopiah> archels: sidenote, the "problem" also is that a keyboard is dirt cheap, we are quite used to it (so it's pretty fast) and socially accepted 
07:39 < archels> I disagree. Show me an input device that is as reliable and with as much bandwidth as a keyboard.
07:39 < archels> None of the existing BCIs even come close ("true" BCI or not).
07:39 < archels> Speech processors are not up to par yet.
07:39 < Utopiah> eh... that's what I meant
07:40 < Utopiah> but we can disagree anyway :P
07:40 < archels> Well, I understood your comment to mean that acceptance of alternatives is held back by societal mores.
07:40 < archels> But there simple aren't any good alternatives.
07:41 < Utopiah> I meant its all those factors
07:42 < archels> I don't think social acceptance will be a major limitation. Of course, if you need to drill a hole in your skull to stick some sort of interface on your cortex, I don't classify that as a problem with social acceptance. ;)
07:42 < archels> The only limitation is technology.
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07:43 < Utopiah> social acceptance drives price down
07:44 < archels> It might become an issue once the technology has arrived, but it isn't a factor now.
07:45 < JayDugger> kanzure, good article, but you used (kings') reigns when you meant (horses') reins.
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07:46 < JayDugger> Very minor problem that doesn't distract from the piece.
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07:52 < kanzure> archels: BCIs are so far off from keyboards that it's sad
07:52 < kanzure> 6 bits/min does not a keyboard make
07:52 < JayDugger> Telegraph key, anyone?
07:53 < kanzure> someone replies: http://emotiv.com/forum/messages/forum15/topic879/message5216/#message5216
07:54 < JayDugger> Gee...what a roundabout way of saying "we don't want to play anymore, so we'll take our ball and go home."
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08:43 < kanzure> Daeken: hey, did you do any iphone cracking?
08:43 < kanzure> because saurik is in here :P
08:43 < Daeken> yea, i worked on the iphone waaaaay back in the day
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09:27 < mheld> hey y'all
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09:40 < charl> "This amino acid is an essential amino acid, which means that the human body cannot synthesize it. Its codons are AAA and AAG."
09:40 < charl> Are those sentences contradictory or am I losing the plot here?
09:41 < kanzure> charl: codons are more like addressing
09:42 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_%28genetics%29
09:44 < charl> oh, duh, of course.
09:51 < drazak> charl: as you probably know there are 64 codon combinations to account for 20some amino acids
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10:04 < charl> Yes, I just mixed it up a little in my head. Straight now. :)
10:37 < kanzure> more responses.. http://emotiv.com/forum/messages/forum15/topic879/message5229/
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10:46 < kanzure> hi charl. what brings you here?
10:55 < charl> oh er
10:55 -!- charl is now known as archels
10:55 < archels> connection dropped at some point.
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10:56 < archels> Is this channel logged, by the way?
10:57 < Utopiah> yes
11:00 < kanzure> if you ask us nicely we can erase you
11:01 < Utopiah> from the logs
11:03 < Utopiah> (no guarantee whatsoever that everybody would actually do so though)
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11:04 < archels> hehe
11:05 < archels> ##agi advertises its log URL in the topic... what's the URL for this channel?
11:05 < Utopiah> (coincidently nobody says anything :/
11:06 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/ogs/
11:06 < kanzure> uh
11:06 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/
11:06 < kanzure> the reason it's not in the /topic is because freenode doesn't respond to their sysop requests/emails
11:13 < archels> I did notice that this channel is unregistered.
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11:22 < kanzure> yeah :(
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13:16 < kanzure> "Consultant agrees that all copyrightable material, notes, records, drawings, designs, inventions, improvements, developments, discoveries and trade secrets conceived, discovered, developed or reduced to practice by Consultant, solely or in collaboration with others which relate in any manner to the business of the Company
13:17 < kanzure> oof.. not sure i should sign this
13:27 < archels> That sounds a little sticky.
13:27 < kanzure> i licensed everything as gpl2+ and creative commons while i was doing that work
13:27 < kanzure> so uh..
13:28 < kanzure> quick! someone make a derivative!
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14:16 < kanzure> hm whats the link to the open source hardware video from foocamp?
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15:05 < bkero> kanzure: ask for a separate contract that allows you to release your work as gplv2
15:07 < kanzure> ooh that would have been smart. but the deed has been done
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15:14 < bkero> :(
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20:12 < JayDugger> Good night.
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21:31 < kanzure> hi opensanta 
21:31 < opensanta> hi kanzure
21:32 < opensanta> I'm reading http://hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/emotiv-epoc-eeg-headset-hacked now.  I came in through the wiki.  
21:32 < kanzure> :)
21:33 < kanzure> welcome.
21:33 < opensanta> kanzure, were you a part of these awesome developments?
21:35 < opensanta> ... http://github.com/kanzure
21:36 < kanzure> in some way yes
21:36 < kanzure> i provided some code that daeken then elaborated on
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23:33 < kanzure> so uh, biocurious got their monies
23:33 < kanzure> with time to spare
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 15 00:00:17 2010