--- Log opened Tue Nov 30 00:00:08 2010
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05:36 < kanzure> upcoming SETI announcement http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2010/nov/HQ_M10-167_Astrobiology.html
05:39 < archels> "Spirit rover mysteriously unstuck, on-board camera image clearly shows three-digit hand"
05:40 < kanzure> i'm hoping for cyborg sagan
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05:53 < archels> We should just get on with building better neutrino detectors so we can tap into subspace radio.
05:55 < archels> woo, I just noticed that the chief editor of Neurocomputing is one of my old profs.
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06:19 < archels> Dear lord, Hugo de Garis uses an @yahoo.com e-mail address.
06:24 < kanzure> yeah a lot of people you'd otherwise respect don't know how to setup their own mail servers
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06:41 < archels> Goertzel also seems to like publishing his @gmail address right next to his ben@goertzel address.
06:43 < kanzure> hm?
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06:46 < archels> Don't know why the redundancy.
06:48 < kanzure> fitzsim: any ideas on why there's so many blank commits here? http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/log/?ofs=5500
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07:08 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
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08:30 < kanzure> fitzsim: hey, what do you make of these commits?
08:30 < kanzure> 595cae8186ed11a54c267aa2a47d9e9cae09d096
08:30 < kanzure> 270f4de3e289dbef469475b7b9d6a1cc1387afcd
08:30 < kanzure> 9ce3f07d4a8d72cb5c5efa4416442524179eaaba
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09:30 < fitzsim> kanzure: they're not blank when I do: "git checkout <ref>; git diff HEAD^..HEAD"
09:31 < fitzsim> kanzure: I did see a lot of empty log messages
09:31 < fitzsim> kanzure: and gitg had trouble (or maybe was just slow) displaying the contents of some commits
09:31 < fitzsim> which made me think they were blank, but on the command line they weren't
09:38 < kanzure> the git diff for this commit is wildly differing from the svn diff http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/weird_commit.txt
09:38 < kanzure> (9ce3f07d4a8d72cb5c5efa4416442524179eaaba or r11019)
09:39 < kanzure> oh it was moving files
09:40 < kanzure> still that doesn't explain why the commit message is "Moved remotely"- the move looks local to me..
09:45 < kanzure> yeah especially with 52ab73a5cdf8bc64088550f4d2519d4fe5992b98 as the origin of the files
09:45 < kanzure> ok i'll just ignore those commits then
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10:41 < kanzure> fitzsim: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/pairs.txt are the commits that i'm going to be fixing
10:41 < kanzure> just fyi.
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11:53 < fitzsim> kanzure: ok, I didn't check them
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12:19 < fitzsim> kanzure: so you're fixing the pairs of commits with matching timestamps, right?
12:19 < fitzsim> kanzure: as opposed to all "Moved remotely" messages
12:22 < fitzsim> kanzure: re: 9ce3f07d4a8d72cb5c5efa4416442524179eaaba, isn't the difference just that the SVN commit message shows just the directories moving, whereas git is showing all the files being moved?
12:25 < kanzure> that's how git shows files being moved yes (i realized my mistake a second later when i said "oh it was moving files")
12:25 < kanzure> but yes i'm fixing those pairs of commits
12:31 < fitzsim> ok
12:32 < fitzsim> depending how far you want to go you might even turn all the branches into first-class git branches
12:33 < fitzsim> where, e.g. checking out remotes/origin/cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split would give you a full tree instead of just a subset of files
12:33 < fitzsim> not sure you could figure that out easily from the logs though
12:36 < kanzure> yeah maybe i'll recover branch history too
12:36 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/log/?h=cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split
12:37 < kanzure> i mean obviously this stuff existed before that first fcb5 commit
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12:50 < fitzsim> did you look at conkeror.git?
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16:38 < kanzure> draft brief overview video of humanity+ and its mission http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgm85XVhWzQ
16:38 < kanzure> it's ben goertzel.
16:47 < bdesk> nice.  "out of the breadth of our mission comes some very specific action items ... creating beneficial artificial general intelligence" made me lol (not so specific?)
16:52 < bdesk> i guess i should clarify that 'beneficial artificial general intelligence' might mean something very specific to some people but to an audience reached by a youtube video it might not.
16:57 < kanzure> yeah..
16:58 < kanzure> i haven't re-routed my audio to let youtube use it
16:58 < kanzure> what does the video say
16:58 < bdesk> but this was very informative as a draft overview of the plans for hplus, thanks.
16:58 < kanzure> what plans?
16:59 < kanzure> as director of r&d, i am not told any plans
16:59 < bdesk> well its mission.
16:59 < kanzure> what's the mission again?
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16:59 < kanzure> or at least your understanding after watching the video
16:59 < bdesk> kanzure: you don't have an audio or transcript of the video?
16:59 < kanzure> i haven't bothered to switch to pulse on linux
16:59 < kanzure> i'm still on poor old alsa
17:00 < kanzure> no i don't
17:00 < kanzure> i was just asking for a quick summary of what those actual missions are or whatever
17:00 < kanzure> plus it's beneficial to hear them from an "outsider"
17:00 < bdesk> kanzure: well one specific item is the 'internet of things'
17:01 < kanzure> haha what
17:01 < bdesk> i had not heard that phrase before, but it reminded me of your project
17:01 < bdesk> well one of your many projects.
17:01 < kanzure> oh "internet of things" is ranked up there with "cloud computing" these days
17:01 < bdesk> i see.
17:02 < bdesk> he mentioned r.u.serious has hplus plans for 2011, which i like the idea of.
17:03 < QuantumG> why is vimeo so shit?
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17:03 < bdesk> is there a google thingy that can auto-trascript the audio of the youtube?
17:03 < bdesk> transcribe i guess that owuld be
17:04 < bdesk> speech to text
17:04 < QuantumG> .. and considering that vimeo is so show, why do people keep using it?
17:04 < QuantumG> bdesk: yes, youtube does that.. it's horrible though
17:05 < bdesk> i bet it could do this video. he tries to talk slow and there is no background audio
17:05 < QuantumG> how long is it?
17:05 < bdesk> how do i do this?
17:05 < bdesk> 5:43
17:05 < QuantumG> 5 minutes?
17:05 < kanzure> it's probably for the thiel foundation thing
17:05 < kanzure> aw crap
17:06 < kanzure> he's going to tell peter thiel to fund opencog on behalf of humanity+?
17:07 < QuantumG> just what opencog needs.. more paid programmers.. why do they even bother pretending its an open source project
17:07 < QuantumG> if you wanna fund something for opencog, fund someone to manage the development.. herd the cats.. etc
17:07 < bdesk> opencog is goertzel's AGI project?
17:08 < QuantumG> yes
17:08 < kanzure> QuantumG: open-source projects often do have paid programmers
17:08 < bdesk> it is an open source software initiative
17:09 < QuantumG> kanzure: they're usually the minority though.. and are paid by a number of sources that want to actually use the software.
17:10 < QuantumG> .. and don't get special treatment.
17:12 < QuantumG> that said, opencog is certainly more open than, say, Qt
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17:23 < bdesk> kanzure: you are going to their dec. san francisco conference?
17:26 < kanzure> you mean los angeles
17:26 < kanzure> and yeah :)
17:26 < kanzure> i'm speaking apparently
17:28 < bdesk> oh los angeles.  the video specifically mentions anti-aging research with respect to this conference.
17:30 < kanzure> aubrey is showing up.
17:30 < bdesk> i think he said a bunch of researchers in this area, but maybe i misheard or he was exaggerating.  i still haven't found a way to get a transcript from the audio...
17:33 < bdesk> wait doesn't kurzweil do speech to text, and isn't a big part of this channel dedicated to kurzweil fanboyism?  maybe i could get some help here?
17:34 < bdesk> oh i see that the internet of things isn't about things going through the tubes, it is about the things that you already have acting as tubes for 'social data'
17:36 < kanzure> we don't do kurzweil fanboyism
17:36 < kanzure> more like kurzweil character assassination
17:37 < bdesk> o
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17:37 < kanzure> hi lepton
17:37 < lepton> kanzure
17:38 < lepton> I was hoping you'd be around
17:38 < lepton> I'm doing an ignite talk on cool things hackerspaces have accomplished
17:38 < lepton> So I thought I'd solicite you for ideas
17:38 < kanzure> bdesk: another article just went up
17:38 < kanzure> http://hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/michael-rose-aubrey-de-grey-contrasting-views-biological-immortality-humanity-caltech-c
17:39 < bdesk> l0pht was a hacker space and they invented buffer overflow hax
17:39 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
17:40 < kanzure> lepton: lookup copenhagen subortbital, and maybe one of the hackerspaces defcon videos
17:40 < lepton> oh yeah, copenhagen suborbital is on our list
17:40 < lepton> It's too damn cool to forget!
17:41 < kanzure> lepton: maybe biocurious, but that's more upcoming than established
17:41 < kanzure> http://earth.hackerspaces.org/
17:41 < kanzure> or maybe one of the fablab presentations (like on ted talks)
17:42 < lepton> yep yep
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17:47 < bdesk> maybe some hackerspaces have accomplished spinning off cool for-profit corporations
17:49 < bdesk> i still cant' make the youtube give me a transcript, but i found an article that i think said that google uses speech recognition to improve search.
17:49 < bdesk> so like you type a thing and google shows you a video where they say that thing.  but they don't actually show you the transcript.
17:49 < QuantumG> you upload the video to youtube.. it makes a transcript
17:50 < bdesk> so i cna't have it scan one that is already up?
17:50 < QuantumG> you can edit the transcript.. or replace it with your own (which almost everyone does cause their autotranscripts suck)
17:50 < QuantumG> no
17:50 < kanzure> bdesk: i'll watch it later
17:51 < bdesk> i guess i could rip the youtube video or at least the audio part and then upload my own dupe video and ask for the autotranscript
17:51 < bdesk> kanzure: i'm interested in speech to text technology too, not just getting the transcript for this one video.
17:51 < QuantumG> yeah.. or just transcribe it yourself if you want a transcript.. if what you want is a substitute for watching the video, it won't be.
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17:55 < bdesk> maybe when we have beneficial artificial general intelligence in a few years the speech to text will come automatically and in a socially responsible way
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17:56 < JayDugger> What do you mean by the phrase "socially responsible way?"
17:58 < bdesk> JayDugger: i mean in a way that gets the future right.
17:58 < kanzure> mechanical turk == socially responsible? :P
17:59 < JayDugger> I didn't mean that as a Socratic question. I really didn't understand its meaning.
17:59 < bdesk> kanzure: that's actually a legit question i think
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18:01 < bdesk> JayDugger: not just the technology but making the technology really work for all of us, and those who come after us.
18:04 < QuantumG> yawn
18:04 < QuantumG> can't even make it work let alone make it ponies and sunflowers
18:05 < kanzure> is pony technology socially responsible?
18:05 < kanzure> not everyone has pony dony
18:05 < kanzure> what theh ell
18:05 < kanzure> i meant to type "not everyone has pony dna"
18:08 < bdesk> QuantumG: "2010-11: simple English conversation and imitation/reinforcement learning"
18:09 < bdesk> this would probably have to involve some amount of speech understanding.  although i guess 'english conversation' could mean texting.  or even if it 'understands' speech this doesn't necessarily mean that it could transcribe it into written text.
18:15 < bdesk> kanzure: "the primary unit of labor on the site is a task (rather than an hour, or a project), so posters needn't worry about minimum wage laws, overtime, health insurance, or other policies designed to protect workers."
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18:19 < JayDugger> I wonder what legal treatment such piecework actually gets.
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18:20 < kanzure> bdesk: did you know about mechanical turk?
18:21 < bdesk> yes i've heard of it
18:22 < bdesk> i knew it was a chess playing hoax a long time ago and then a clever name for an amazon service where you pay people per task, often a micropayment for some job that would be annoying to automate.
18:22 < QuantumG> apparently ROS has some modules that farms out the computer vision tasks to the MT.. which I guess is only possible because the P2 is so damn slow.
18:23 < QuantumG> they only used it in one project I think
18:24 < JayDugger> Eww...I dislike that. I don't mind a robot watching me, but someone looking through its cameras?
18:25 < JayDugger> I suppose a lot of practices that vanished when people stopped hiring domestic servants will return as robots become more sophisticated.
18:25 < bdesk> yes in the future we will have robot maids like in the jetsons
18:26 < QuantumG> it's not like that.  It has a task like "pick up the cup" and it's vision system can identify that there's cups on the table, but not exactly where the cups are.. so it sends a picture of the table to the cloud and the kids in the sweatshops draw boxes around the cups..
18:27 < QuantumG> it uses the resulting data right away, but it also stores it away and runs learning algorithms on it.. the next time it does the task it performs better, and eventually doesn't need to farm any of the processing out.
18:28 < bdesk> they should make one that plays chess
18:28 < JayDugger> I don't much mind that actual practice, QuantumG, the principle and potential for abuse bothers me more.
18:28 < QuantumG> .. and presumably the kids go back to solving captchas
18:29 < JayDugger> I doubt we'll have robot maids a la The Jetsons anytime soon. A general-purpose robot sufficient for housekeeper work would have many other and more valuable uses.
18:29 < bdesk> they go back to looking at the TSA nudie pics for smuggled items
18:30 < QuantumG> personally, I wonder if you could make a dirt cheap teleoperated robot and leverage offshore "labor" remotely.
18:30 < bdesk> the TSA should use mechanical turk for its scanners
18:30 < JayDugger> Yeah. :) As an aside, the TSA had its scanners turned off at KDEN and KDFW when I traveled over the holiday.
18:30 < JayDugger> No enhanced pat-down.
18:30 < JayDugger> And the TSA should stop doing its security theater performances. 
18:30 < QuantumG> they didn't boil that frog slow enough
18:31 < JayDugger> :) You ever read Nick Szabo's blog post on "How Our Frog Was Boiled."?
18:31 < kanzure> no pat down during the holiday? 
18:31 < JayDugger> Correct.
18:31 < kanzure> but they are missing the bulk of travelers
18:31 < bdesk> wait i thought you guys wanted your consciousnesses uploaded into the cloud.  how much more personally invasive of privacy can you get than that?
18:32 < kanzure> bdesk: fuck the cloud
18:32 < QuantumG> I bet you can these days
18:32 < kanzure> maybe a few copies in "the cloud" but honestly i want my own servers
18:32 < JayDugger> Assuming such a thing is possible, and assuming it would be public, both of which I doubt but will allow for the argument's sake--
18:32 < JayDugger> so what? It beats being dead.
18:33 < JayDugger> I had two problems with the TSA, both at KDEN.
18:33 < JayDugger> One, extremely long lines. That happens because KDEN has bad architecture, like Kansas City's airport.
18:34 < JayDugger> Two, a lecherous old goat reviewing boarding passes who gave extra attention to every female in his line.
18:34 < JayDugger> This made the line go very slowly.
18:34 < JayDugger> I think you could outsource specific teleoperated tasks, such as folding clothes.
18:35 < JayDugger> Could you do that more cost-effectively than hiring local manual labor? Some places, sure.
18:35 < bdesk> kanzure: your talk is about the debian-for-items or about the open-physical-item-modeling-software or something?
18:35 < kanzure> bdesk: i'm just giving a general talk on reprap and the gada prize
18:35 < kanzure> http://gadaprize.org/
18:36 < JayDugger> Right now teleoperation only happens where humans fit poorly in the system (pilots and other aircrew) or where remote operation costs little more than direct operation (system administration).
18:36 < kanzure> eh.. http://hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/top-5-human-enhancement-must-haves
18:37 < JayDugger> Other examples? 
18:37 < kanzure> fairly basic article.. just a giant list?
18:37 < kanzure> brain/body enhancement is missing i/o throughput
18:37 < JayDugger> No LASIK?
18:37 < JayDugger> Only what you can't yet get?
18:38 < kanzure> heh dunno
18:38 < bdesk> the 'replaceable genes' sounds ambitious
18:38 < JayDugger> Hair dye is an enhancement, but at one extreme of the range.
18:38 < kanzure> i don't know what that means
18:38 < kanzure> does she mean retroviral/lentiviral therapy?
18:39 < bdesk> i guess it is not unreasonable.
18:39 < JayDugger> I assume so. The editor might have caught vaguely phrased statements. :/
18:40 < bdesk> especially compared to 'seamless relay between platforms, avatars and syn-bios'
18:41 < bdesk> which i'm pretty sure means uploading your consciousness to the cloud.
18:41 < bdesk> the TSA will scan your consciousness as it is being uploaded.
18:41 < kanzure> have you been practicing this?
18:41 < bdesk> but maybe that's what the finessed emotions helper is for
18:42 < bdesk> wat
18:45 < QuantumG> what another word for ontology?
18:45 < bdesk> kanzure: the idea behind the gada prize looks pretty interesting to me.  i know that they have been wanting to print electrictronically relevant parts, or at least usefully conductive.
18:45 < QuantumG> what's the word for "a hierarchical classification system"
18:45 < bdesk> QuantumG: taxonomy
18:45 < QuantumG> Taxonomy
18:46 < QuantumG> thanks
18:46 < kanzure> there's been a number of conductive prints done on a reprap before
18:46 < kanzure> dunno about usefully conductive though ;)
18:47 < QuantumG> guess I can ask the question I was trying answer.. is there a standard taxonomy for protein function?
18:47 < kanzure> actually yes
18:47 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EC_number
18:47 < kanzure> but this is primarily for catalysis in enzymes
18:48 < QuantumG> Antibodies, Contractile Proteins, Enzymes, Hormonal Proteins, Structural Proteins, Storage Proteins, Transport Proteins <- that's the closest I've found.. and it's pretty flat
18:49 < kanzure> http://www.pantherdb.org/
18:49 < kanzure> http://reactome.org/ (honestly i preferred the older version with the diagram on the front page)
18:49 < bdesk> QuantumG: there is a protein folds/sub-family/family/superfamily hierarchy i think
18:49 < QuantumG> yeah, that's structure not function though
18:50 < bdesk> QuantumG: or maybe SCOP, CATH, and InterPro have their own
18:50 < bdesk> oh
18:50 < bdesk> structure is usually very related to function in proteins.
18:51 < QuantumG> what I love about microbiology.. they have so much trouble with the basics.
18:51 < QuantumG> "what sort of thing is this?"
18:52 < kanzure> this isn't microbiology
18:52 < QuantumG> molecular biology
18:52 < kanzure> (just fyi)
18:52 < QuantumG> sorry.
18:52 < kanzure> that's better :)
18:52 < bdesk> QuantumG: looking at your list, maybe you want a hierarchical classification of all of the things that a cell does, and then lists of which proteins participate in each cellular function?
18:52 < QuantumG> microbiology does suck at the taxonomies too though.. but at least they have 'em.
18:53 < QuantumG> bdesk: sure, if you've got one
18:53 < bdesk> protein function isn't like the dewey decimal system.  proteins can function in more than one cellular process.
18:54 < bdesk> QuantumG: there is GO
18:54 < bdesk> QuantumG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Ontology
18:58 < bdesk> http://amigo.geneontology.org/cgi-bin/amigo/browse.cgi
19:00 < QuantumG> antioxidant activity, binding, catalytic activity, channel regulator activity, chemoattractant activity, chemorepellent activity, electron carrier activity, enzyme regulator activity, metallochaperone activity, molecular transducer activity, morphogen activity, nucleic acid binding transcription factor activity, nutrient reservoir activity, protein binding transcription factor activity, protein tag, receptor regulator activity, structural molecule a
19:00 < QuantumG> ctivity, transcription regulator activity, translation regulator activity, transporter activity 
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19:03 < QuantumG> and the cellular_component tree is pretty good too
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19:07 < bdesk> kanzure: is the dec31 2012 a deadline for the prize, when the prize will be discontinued?
19:09 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
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19:10 < kanzure> bdesk: yep. after that point if none of the submissions have qualified humanity+ will decide what to do with the prize money (i.e., extend the date, whatever)
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19:29 < kanzure> fitzsim: well. it sort of worked.. but not really. git is having trouble keeping track of revision history of the individual files through the move
19:30 < kanzure> subtree merge might work http://pastebin.com/ZJRrBxd4
19:33 < kanzure> another option is to make up some more fake commits so that the filenames aren't renamed until after the merge
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20:32 < kanzure> greg bear married poul anderson's daughter?
20:32 < kanzure> yeah that's not incestuous in the slightest..
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 01 00:00:07 2010