--- Log opened Wed Jan 12 00:00:04 2011
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00:18 < fenn> omg boyden is using arduino to do data collection?
00:19 < fenn> i've been looking at the thorlabs catalog.. lots of expensive sexy optical bench and fiber stuff
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01:49 < Utopiah> (one more link on computational physiology http://www.rle.mit.edu/cpci/ )
02:19 < joshcryer> http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/919846--this-ark-is-green-floats-and-could-house-10-000-people
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03:09 < Utopiah> worm factory http://www.economist.com/node/17618488
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03:33 < archels> Utopiah: nice
03:33 < Utopiah> (don't look in the comment but somebody complained about... not being nice to the worms and nature ;)
03:35 < Lukas__> Good morning
03:40 < Utopiah> ./skdb search electricity-meter-interface
03:47 < archels> Utopiah: Best not tell hir about what they (we) do to fluffy little kittens and bunnies.
03:49 < archels> ``testing drugs on such wont bring an drug breach throw''
04:11 < Utopiah>  http://www.ikeahackers.net funny
04:17 < Lukas__> I like clever ways to use space
04:29  * bkero is ashamed to have inadvertantly missed Carl Sagan's work until recently.
04:29 < bkero> *inadverently
04:47 < Lukas__> Sagan is amazing
05:01 < Lukas__> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/12/AR2009071201977.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009071http://www.http://www.washingtonpost.com:80/ac2/wp-dyn?node=admin/registration/register&sub=AR
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06:20 < kanzure> :/ http://www.kybernetica.com/petition_against_initiative_on_synthetic_biology_climate_connections-archive.html
06:20 < kanzure> oops. spam. don't click
06:21 < kanzure> here we go:
06:21 < kanzure> http://climatevoices.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/petition-against-initiative-on-synthetic-biology/
06:21 < kanzure> petition: http://www.testbiotech.org/en/signonline
06:26 < Lukas__> D:
06:26 < Lukas__> what the?
06:27 < Lukas__> gods damn it
06:30 < Lukas__> Regulation is important, but I fear this could go a bit far
06:34 < kanzure> about 2 GB uploaded now.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/
06:35 < Lukas__> Sweet
06:35 < Lukas__> thanks
06:48 < kanzure> at this rate it will only take forever
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06:48 < gloop> http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201101072
06:49 < kanzure> what is it?
06:50 < gloop> citizen science in the news- not so much DIYBio
06:50 < gloop> moreso milkywayproject
06:50 < gloop> thuogh i could be wrong. i was thinking of adding it to the openwetware list
06:51 < kanzure> oh, that's just "use people as gruntwork" and the hype of crowdsourcing
06:53 < Lukas__> agreed
06:53 < Lukas__> still useful though (like the new nebula that was found the other day)
07:00 < gloop> yeah
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08:17 < kanzure> how to read a spectrogram http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html
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08:41 < kanzure> JayDugger: i didn't claim all of his files were lost .. just that his site was down.
08:41 < kanzure> it's back up: http://www.aleph.se/Trans/
08:44 < kanzure> but here's a mirror anyway :) http://anders.diyhpl.us/mirror.tar.gz
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09:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us:9000/s/thomas-thwaites-how-i-built-a-toaster-from-scratch-video-on-ted-com
09:54 < kanzure> biking t-rex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTYJm4Jx7LU
09:54 < kanzure> kickstarter project to make it: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1542422025/raise-the-rex
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10:51 < kanzure> fenn: next step is fixing up my crappy apt-get client thing.. in skdb/clients/skdb-get.py
10:51 < kanzure> i think a one-page spec on a good package resolver-fetcher might be appropriate, or just writing something that doesn't suck
10:52 < kanzure> including where to store packages on the file system, where to store a user's inventory list of tools that might not be packages yet, repository urls, etc.
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11:13 < fenn> jesus fucking christ, $2500 to weld a bike on a pole?
11:14 < Lukas__> D:
11:14 < Lukas__> This out of hand
11:14 < Lukas__> That*
11:17 < kanzure> fenn: it's kickstarter, it's magical like that!
11:17 < kanzure> lasersaur got $20k and they haven't done /shit/
11:35 < fenn> we now have "business" class internet connection here at langton; supposedly 90Mbit down and 9Mbit up, of course that's faster than wifi
11:39 < Lukas__> -_________-   http://hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/searching-phenomena-physics-may-serve-bases-femtometer-scale-technology
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11:42 < fenn> why dont they just make that an article instead of a "blog entry"
11:44 < fenn> of course "now that nanotech is well launched" just proves how disconnected from reality some of the writers are
11:45 < kanzure> fenn: they don't understand the difference between articles and 'blog entries' and so on
11:46 < kanzure> dunno if you noticed but half the stuff is on /articles and the other stuff is on /editors-blog
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11:46 < kanzure> yeah ben just wrote a femtotech article
11:47  * kanzure is converting hplusmagazine.com from drupal to wordpress this month
11:47 < Lukas__> It started off decently, then went to complete speculation towards the end
11:47 < kanzure> i got fed up with h+ magazine work and told them i'll have to start charging them..
11:47 < kanzure> so i'm getting paid to do it :P
11:48 < fenn> robert forward wrote a lot about making devices/computers out of ultradense matter and various subatomic particles, but he didn't call it femtotech
11:49 < kanzure> i'll be giving a technical presentation on nanoengineer-1 sometime later this at a foresight conference
11:49 < kanzure> (i figure that's more helpful than complaining about ben goertzel spending his time on a femtotech article)
11:51 < fenn> have you gotten it to run yet? :P
11:52 < kanzure> once or twice
11:52 < kanzure> i still need to setup nightly snapshots and more infrastructure stuff like the bug repository
11:52 < fenn> excellent
11:52 < fenn> have you tried out the dna origami stuff?
11:52 < kanzure> no. cadnano probably does that more effectively at this point.
11:53 < fenn> i still don't know what "adobe air" is
11:54 < kanzure> vendor lock in bullshit
11:54 < fenn> it's like flash, but you need a separate application to run it? wtf is the point of that
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12:36 < jrayhawk> i might actually use flash applications if flash were reliably able to execute them outside of a browser
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12:36 < kanzure> hi timschmidt
12:36 < timschmidt> hey
12:36 < kanzure> you should bug fenn about skdb-client.py and how much it sucks
12:36 < kanzure> (since fenn is around today)
12:36 < timschmidt> heh
12:36 < jrayhawk> that's how java's always worked
12:36 < timschmidt> won't ^ that suffice?
12:36 < kanzure> timschmidt: it's in skdb/clients/skdb-get.py
12:36 < kanzure> it's just a little crappy client i wrote a long time ago
12:37 < kanzure> and it's pathetic
12:37 < kanzure> jrayhawk: maybe you can complain about it too!
12:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/clients/skdb-get.py
12:44 < fenn> i don't see anything wrong with how it's written; maybe needs a few more sanity checks, and has to tie into dependency resolution somehow
12:46 < kanzure> last time i checked for "reusable package managers that aren't too heavily tied into their own thing" was back in 2008 or 2009
12:46 < kanzure> maybe the situation has improved?
12:46 < kanzure> heh i should be more cynical
12:48 < fenn> i dont think it makes sense to use an external/existing package manager
12:48 < kanzure> is there a particular manager that is worth copying more than the others?
12:49 < fenn> uh. maybe?
12:49 < fenn> i'm most familiar with apt, having never been particularly fond of needing yet another fucking package manager for whatever language of the day decides they will stop making debian packages for their software
12:50 < jrayhawk> DARCS was close to good, but still not as good as dpkg.
12:50 < fenn> i.e. CPAN, python eggs, asdf
12:51 < kanzure> gems
12:51 < fenn> darcs is a version control system, not a package manager
12:51 < jrayhawk> errr cabal
12:51 < jrayhawk> sorry
12:51 < jrayhawk> i should probably eat
12:52 < kanzure> i think there should be a short spec for "how to manage skdb packages on your system"
12:52 < kanzure> writing a spec for a package manager might be overdoing it especially if writing the package manager itself would take less time
12:52 < jrayhawk> "We can always standardize later!" is the Perl and Ruby philosphy!
12:53 < kanzure> jrayhawk: we have a package spec: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/package_spec.yaml
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12:54  * fenn looks around expectantly
12:54 < fenn> i know i left my chocolate covered acai berries around here somewhere!
12:57 < kanzure> fenn: before i ship your hard drive can i put some stuff on there i need you to upload? :/
12:57 < kanzure> 1 GB/night is really just.. useless.
13:01 < fenn> heh ok
13:01 < fenn> how much?
13:01 < kanzure> oh just my papers (12 GB)
13:01 < fenn> certainly
13:06 < kanzure> jrayhawk: do you think there should be a spec for the end-user client?
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13:59 < fenn> i forget if i ever mentioned mark carranza's associative memory system http://quantifiedself.com/2009/09/the-social-memex/
14:01 < Lukas__> woah
14:01 < Lukas__> quite interesting
14:02 < fenn> another thing that everyone should know about http://code.google.com/apis/predict/
14:02 < kanzure> wut? http://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/714-White-House-commissions-report-on-3-D-printers.html
14:02 < kanzure> oh hod lipson's thing was for the whitehouse? that's nice.
14:02 < fenn> "3d printers: terrorists have them"
14:03 < kanzure> as bdesk says: food is dual-use because either the good guys can eat it or the bad guys can eat it
14:03 < kanzure> quick! shut down every molecular gastronomy lab in the nation!
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14:04 < fenn> they're using it to make mind-altering cocktails, like whisky with coffee caviar!
14:05 < fenn> i wonder if anything will come of that white house report
14:05 < kanzure> hod lipson's usual? he seems to do ok
14:05 < kanzure> matt was telling me once he thinks of hod as a (friendly) rival
14:05 < kanzure> where's matt's 3d printer?
14:06 < kanzure> it would be hilarious if i go work for hod actually
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14:27 < kanzure> commercial 3d printing competition prize money ... stuff. http://www.dimensionprinting.com/extreme-redesign/extreme-redesign-main.aspx
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16:00 < augur> anyone interested in whuffies and similar ideas?
16:01 < augur> whuffie, not whuffies x3
16:01 < kanzure> googele global science fair http://www.google.com/events/sciencefair/
16:02 < kanzure> augur: ybit is
16:03 < augur> hooray!
16:03 < augur> ybit: hi
16:15 < kanzure> fail :/
16:15 < kanzure> *google global science fair
16:22 < kanzure> so.. anyone? write a specification for an skdb package manager? yes/no?
16:26 < AlonzoTG> om
16:26 < jrayhawk> It's probably best to just get something out the door as soon as possible.
16:27 < jrayhawk> skdb is a fairly experimental concept; not much point specifying the results before you get a chance to run it.
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16:39 < kanzure> jrayhawk: hm, yes but we've also never enumerated the exact set of features the package manager should have
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16:40 < AlonzoTG> Why are we talking about package managers when we should be talking about bionic boobies! =P
16:41 < kanzure> AlonzoTG: you're lame
16:41 < AlonzoTG> =\
16:41 < jrayhawk> bionic boobies would be useful for fundraising purposes, presumably
16:42 < Lukas__> :D
16:42 < kanzure> skdb install death-star
16:42 < kanzure> ^how's that for fundraising
16:43 < Lukas__> I prefer teh boobies :D
16:43 < jrayhawk> what if the death star were squeezable
16:43 < kanzure> .. near death star?
16:44 < QuantumG> headache star
16:44 < kanzure> http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Near_Death_Star
16:44 < AlonzoTG> I moderate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boobgirls/ and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breaststoobigtocarry/
16:46 < Lukas__> xD
16:46 < gloop> near-sighted star
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16:52 < Lukas__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUR6rO90dFM&feature=sub
16:52 < Lukas__> I didn't know civilians can purchase drones
16:52 < kanzure> what is it?
16:55 < Lukas__> P.W. Singer discussing the use of drones in the civilian sector
16:55 < Lukas__> people buying their own drones
16:55 < Lukas__> law enforcement using them
16:55 < Lukas__> etc.
16:55 < gloop> they're used in ecology for finding forest
16:55 < gloop> trees missing, etc
16:55 < Lukas__> and people growing drugs in the forest
16:56 < gloop> anyone know of RepLabs working on printing water filters
16:57 < kanzure> gloop: water liberation prize on gadaprize.org might be getting funding soon
16:57 < gloop> that's cool, i was just wondering if anyone has worked on filters yet
16:59 < gloop> i was thinking of something like a sari cloth
16:59 < gloop> which can be folded 4 times
16:59 < gloop> to prevent cholera
17:01 < gloop> but if a filter could be washed. could sonication work? or ion exchange?
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17:02 < gloop> how could it be reused without the material being degraded?
17:03 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i want to buy some stats from okcupid.com, do you think those goons are approachable?
17:04 < gloop> they have a blog with some already
17:04 < jrayhawk> that's a dandy question. I expect you're better off approaching them as a researcher rather than as a commercial effort initially.
17:04 < kanzure> they haven't made what i need public
17:04 < kanzure> jrayhawk: why's that?
17:05 < jrayhawk> Almost everyone views research as altrustic and altruism as moral, whereas relatively few have the same view on commercialism.
17:06 < fenn> http://www.openni.org/gallery i got a kick out of the miku miku dance at least
17:06 < jrayhawk> Not sure how to plausibly present yourself as a researcher, though. Usually it helps to be associated with either a non-profit or a university.
17:06 < kanzure> fenn: ha with kinect
17:07 < kanzure> thanks jrayhawk. associating this data seeking activity with a non-profit is a bad idea
17:07 < kanzure> in this case.
17:10 < kanzure> fenn: we need to get dick van dyke in front of a kinect
17:11 < fenn> so he can be laser evaporated into the world of tron, never to return?
17:11 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2fMlg5WTMM
17:11 < kanzure> yes
17:12 < gloop> this irradiates water with UV: http://www.nationaloutdoors.net/files/pictures/gearreviews/All%20Clear%20UV%20Water%20Purifier_72%20%28Custom%29.jpg
17:12 < jrayhawk> people think that was scripted, but that's just a typical day in the life of dick van dyke
17:12 < kanzure> fenn: how about using this for manufacturing simulation stuff?
17:14 < AlonzoTG> Mary Poppins is a 10.
17:14 < QuantumG> the original point of the kinect was kinematic motion capture of the human body.. now it's been hacked to work on the PC and there's drivers for it that do that stuff (I've seen them working), is there actually software for the PC that lets you animate characters with it?
17:15 < kanzure> QuantumG: that's what fenn was linking to
17:15 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQREhd9iT38
17:15 < kanzure> except a more useful link.
17:18 < QuantumG> awesome.. now they need to make it multiplayer
17:18 < QuantumG> streaming motion capture
17:18 < kanzure> karate?
17:18 < fenn> huh. openni is funded/developed by willow garage?
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17:19 < kanzure> how did they convince people to give them money, again? "we're building robots"?
17:19 < fenn> somebody's gotta do it
17:19 < QuantumG> http://www.realxtend.org/  <- for example, add kinect support to this
17:20 < ybit> augur: hello :)
17:21 < fenn> QuantumG: probably because nobody's ever heard of realxtend
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17:24 < augur> ybit: hey
17:24 < augur> so im interested in the idea of building a a whuffie system
17:25 < fenn> why not join the existing whuffie project
17:25 < augur> is there one?
17:25 < fenn> did you even google "whuffie"?
17:26 < augur> i did! :|
17:26 < fenn> -_-
17:26 < kanzure> note: google results are customized to each user these days
17:26 < augur> ahh, this whuffie bank thing
17:26 < kanzure> so it's not really a good standard measure of what results pop up
17:26 < augur> is that what you mean
17:27 < ybit> http://metacurrency.org
17:27 < ybit> augur ^
17:27 < ybit> augur: also, #bitcoin
17:28 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/ will have stuff too.
17:28 < augur> er..
17:28 < augur> bitcoin isnt whuffie..
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17:29 < ybit> yes i know
17:29 < augur> so then ..
17:30 < ybit> whuffie is an alt currency, and i don't know what you know so, i'm just giving you stuff to look at
17:31 < augur> whuffie isn't really an alt /currency/ as such
17:31 < augur> i mean, its been described as such
17:31 < fenn> agreed, it's not a currency, though that's the only metaphor people seem to understand
17:32 < ybit> it's a reputation based currency, so yeah it is :)
17:32 < gloop> http://www.media-art-online.org/iwat/ is
17:33 < fenn> bitcoin is probably the only realistic plan for a non-fiat non-physical currency
17:34 < fenn> i'm told it has horrible code quality though
17:34 < fenn> but that can be fixed, if anyone cared
17:34 < gloop> but it's still based on membership
17:34 < gloop> the best currency is relativistic
17:34 < ybit> i'll join the conversation later
17:35  * ybit goes back to his spanish lesson 
17:35 < gloop> like Einstein's general relativity or special relativity
17:35 < augur> i think its important to remember that whuffie isnt just a "currency"
17:36 < augur> i mean, the extent to which it's a currency depends on the fact that the environs is rather communist in nature, where marx's "to each according to his needs" principle is fleshed out by using whuffie as a measure of worthiness
17:40 < augur> more than anything, whuffie is a reputation system that happens to be the primary way a non-monetary economy is mediated
17:40 < augur> so things like bitcoin and metacurrency sem to be .. not remotely whuffie-ish
17:43 < fenn> correct
17:44  * fenn mumbles something about reprapping a pipettor
17:45 < AlonzoTG> Yeah, lots of ppl are going to be in the market for a new currency sooon cuz the FRN is toast. =|
17:45 < augur> also, whuffiebank doesnt seem to implement actual whuffie
17:45 < AlonzoTG> I'm going to have to step up my efforts to lighten my pockets of it.
17:46 < augur> and it doesnt seem to implement it in a way i'd like to see
17:47 < augur> its too built around bolting itself onto particular services
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17:50 < gloop> a pipettor could use a calibrator too
17:50 < gleapsite> Hello. I'm looking for Bryan Bishop.
17:50 -!- augur is now known as SamuelBeckett
17:50 < SamuelBeckett> Hello. I'm looking for Godot.
17:51 -!- SamuelBeckett is now known as augur
17:51 < gloop> I'm waiting for Guffman
17:51 < gleapsite> supposedly he's written some python scripts that integrate with the Emotiv headset
17:52 < QuantumG> kanzure
17:53 < gloop> gleapsite: you're looking for kanzure
17:53 < gleapsite> quantumG, gloop: thanks. will PM him.
17:56 < gleapsite> so this channel...  DIY biohacking?
17:56 < gloop> how often are people prime minister'd? (PM'd)
17:56 < gloop> i wouldnt want to be p'ministered
17:57 < gloop> biology, RepRaps
17:57 < gloop> transhumanism
17:57 < gloop> nanotech
17:57 < gleapsite> me and my friend have self-implanted RFID ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idlodc7RXs4 ) , and I've been considering going to Steven Haworth for a neodymium figertip implant
17:57 < gloop> AI
17:58 < gleapsite> I also have a makerbot, but...  its a finicky robot who hates more more often than not
18:03 < gloop> what do you plan to make with the makerbot
18:03 < gleapsite> currently, I'm reproducing wooden puzzles
18:03 < gloop> neat
18:03 < gleapsite> I've printed out a car dock for my phone
18:03 < gleapsite> shot glasses
18:04 < gleapsite> tarp clamps
18:04 < gleapsite> (for a LARPing compground)
18:04 < gleapsite> really more of a shanty town, but no one lives there full time
18:05 < gloop> tarp clamps for LARP? that rhymes
18:06 < gleapsite> yes. I also try to make music...  but I think I need to learn a lot more to be good at that
18:08 < gleapsite> I mostly play w/ hardware hacking WRT music.  turned a guitar hero controller into an instrument, been hacking bleeplabs' nebulophone
18:10 < gleapsite>  /cred.
18:12 < gloop> tell me about this shanty town. sounds interesting
18:12 < gleapsite> ok
18:12 < kanzure> hi gleapsite
18:12 < kanzure> i'm bryan
18:12 < gleapsite> so we do this larping thing
18:12 < gleapsite> foam swords, shields spears arrows
18:13 < gleapsite> gloop, lemme talk to brian first
18:13 < kanzure> gleapsite: http://github.com/daeken/emokit is better at this first
18:13 < gleapsite> bryan*
18:13 < kanzure> *at this point
18:14 < gleapsite> ok. so are these stand alone or are they hitting emotiv code?
18:14 < kanzure> emotiv did not write this software
18:14 < kanzure> basically: daeken extracted the DES key, and then decrypted data coming from the headset, then figured out where the variables were in the data
18:14 < kanzure> then you can hook this up to other open source software like openvibe for analysis
18:15 < gleapsite> gotcha
18:15 < gleapsite> so then does this have the thought/pattern recognition capability or the emotiv suite?
18:15 < kanzure> eh sort of.. the emotiv headset isn't that fantastic
18:16 < kanzure> basically you can do the same on your own with a few guassians or something
18:16 < gloop> well got to go
18:16 < gleapsite> meaning build your own headset?
18:16 < kanzure> gleapsite: btw, yeah, do-it-yourself biohacking happens in this channel
18:16 < kanzure> gleapsite: no.. meaning "use open source software instead of emotiv's crap"
18:16 < gleapsite> ok.
18:17 < gleapsite> so you're saying the software isn't that great
18:17 < kanzure> right
18:17 < gleapsite> have you done anything interesting w/ these python scripts?
18:18 < kanzure> nope not yet. daeken took what i started and turned it into something usable.
18:18 < gleapsite> I see
18:19 < gleapsite> how about embedded systems (like openembedded linux on a gumstix or something)  has anyone tried to get this running on something like that?
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18:23 < gleapsite> or does the signal processing/memory requirements preclude something like that currently?
18:24 < ybit> augur: whoofie fits into the metacurrency idea, metacurrency's idea about currency isn't the kind that is typically thought of. whuffie would be a reputation based "currency" in this system.
18:25 < augur> ybit: perhaps. but its only barely a currency
18:26 < ybit> ~~~ :)
18:27 < augur> its really a reputation system which, due to the nature of doctorow's imagined brand of communism, happens to influence acquisition like currency does
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18:29 < kanzure> gleapsite: well, it would require bluetooth certainly
18:29 < kanzure> if you want something more hackable i'd recommend openeeg
18:30 < gleapsite> which means building my own headset.
18:32 < fenn> i think gumstix would work fine
18:32 < ybit> Big Red ftw
18:32 < gleapsite> w/ emokit and an emotiv?
18:32 < fenn> fftw is pretty awesome, and your fft is only like 20Hz or so
18:33 < fenn> you could probably do it on an arduino
18:33 < gleapsite> hmm.  I've only used numpy's fft prior to this
18:33 < fenn> er, except for all the decryption etc
18:34 < gleapsite> and you only get 8bits
18:35 < fenn> anyway gumstix already has a bluetooth host stack all set up and ready to go for you
18:35 < gleapsite> and openembedded+linux
18:35 < gleapsite> +python
18:36 < fenn> i'm partial to the beagleboard myself, less fiddly connectors
18:36 < fenn> anyway, gotta go, bbl
18:36 < kanzure> cya fenn
18:36 < gleapsite> so...  emokit will work with the 299$ version of the EPOC?
18:36 < kanzure> yes
18:37 < gleapsite> no need for the sdk
18:37 < gleapsite> excellent
18:38 < gleapsite> So my idea, is to try and communicate with the outside world from within a dream
18:39 < kanzure> do you do lucid dreaming?
18:39 < gleapsite> yes.
18:39 < gleapsite> been keeping a dream journal for years
18:39 < kanzure> cool :)
18:39 < gleapsite> and I've made a simple inducer
18:39 < gleapsite> adruino+LED
18:40 < gleapsite> a simple timer that starts pulsing the LED 80 minutes after its powered on
18:41 < gleapsite> you could see it through your eyelids so your brain would incorporate it into the dream
18:41 < gleapsite> after that you just need to train your conscious mind to recognize that as a dreamsign
18:42 < kanzure> right
18:42 < gleapsite> I'm able to self induce now
18:42 < kanzure> i don't lucid dream (or dream all that often), but my mom does- to an impressive extent
18:42 < kanzure> she does lucid dreaming, sleep walking, sleep talking, sleep breaking up with boyfriends, she claims she does a full day's worth of work in her sleep
18:42 < gleapsite> yeah
18:43 < kanzure> it would be interesting to see if you could correlate REM with anything in particular
18:43 < kanzure> i.e. if during lucid dreaming REM movements are related to dream-related saccades or eye movements
18:43 < kanzure> because that's a fairly easy thing to track with eeg
18:44 < gleapsite> but when you wake you'd have to correlate the data w/ your memory of the dream
18:45 < gleapsite> I guess you could program some sort of "bookmark" function into the eeg recognition
18:45 < kanzure> it takes a lot of sessions of biofeedback to get your self trained on eeg, i dunno how you'd approach that at all for dream-based training
18:46 < kanzure> except maybe different LED colors or sequences, but that's probably annoying?
18:46 < gleapsite> I'd train outside the dream
18:47 < kanzure> yes but does eeg training carry over to dream-based use? i suspect not, and you would need new training
18:47 < gleapsite> ?
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18:47 < kanzure> gleapsite: have you ever trained yourself with eeg?
18:47 < gleapsite> no I haven't.
18:48 < gleapsite> I just ordered an emotive tonight
18:48 < kanzure> i see, okay
18:48 < kanzure> well, eeg training is super boring to watch but if you want a heads up you can find tons of eeg training session videos on youtube
18:49 < gleapsite> ok
18:49 < kanzure> it takes 50 to 100 attempts to calibrate your brain to the system via biofeedback
18:50 < kanzure> especially with emotiv; they bundle some software with it so you can train to move a block in 16 different directions
18:50 < kanzure> so you start by training on only one-directional movement, and then add directions and try to keep it consistent..
18:50 < kanzure> anyway, it works best with one-directional movement, or two-directional movement at best.
18:50 < gleapsite> so I write a little python game to play for training or something?
18:50 < gleapsite> 2d.
18:50 < gleapsite> so I'd have to communicate out in morse
18:51 < kanzure> well.. i'd go for something simpler like a binary switch or flip-flop gate game, or something
18:51 < gleapsite> for training
18:51 < gleapsite> yeah
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18:51 < kanzure> but you could also test your hypothesis that if you train while awake, then the training will hold during your sleep
18:52 < kanzure> gleapsite: if you can get two or three directional movements you should make a sleep walking bot for second life or something
18:53 < gleapsite> lol.
18:54 < gleapsite> kanzure: in re: to you saying that you don't dream,  it could be that you are dreaming, but don't remember it.
18:54 < kanzure> i write down all that i can remember each morning
18:54 < gleapsite> Its been speculated that the pineal gland produces DMT during sleep, which could be the cause of dreams
18:55 < kanzure> maybe i can do some genetic engineering of gut microbes to over-produce DMT
18:55 < gleapsite> but...  DMT also kinda shuts off your memory centers (personal exp),
18:55 < gleapsite> which is why training w/ a dreamjournal is a really good thing.  teaches your brain to keep memory online
18:57 < Juul> i did that for a while
18:57 < Juul> suddenly i was remembering loads of dreams
18:57 < gleapsite> yeah.  that was my method too
18:57 < kanzure> gleapsite: what about a tactile tongue interface?
18:57 < kanzure> some people can get 200x200 pixel resolution on these things
18:57 < gleapsite> for communicating out of a dream?
18:58 < gleapsite> or broadcasting data in?
18:58 < kanzure> communicating information into a dream
18:58 < gleapsite> got any links?
18:58 < Juul> it got to a point where it was too distracting. i kept thinking about my dreams
18:58 < kanzure> gleapsite: yeah give me a sec
18:58 < gleapsite> juul: thats why I try and use my dreams as a laboratory for the waking world
18:59 < kanzure> general overview: http://www.techreview.com/biomedicine/21706/page1/
18:59 < Juul> gleapsite, sounds useful if you can make it work
19:00 < kanzure> http://kaz.med.wisc.edu/projects_tdu.php
19:00 < kanzure> grr where's that good link? :(
19:02 < kanzure> oh this was the brainport
19:02 < gleapsite> I dunno if I could fall asleep normally w/ something like that box dangling out of my mouth...
19:02 < kanzure> http://vision.wicab.com/technology/
19:03 < kanzure> i figure there's no way to use the eyes
19:03 < kanzure> but the tongue.. :)
19:04 < gleapsite> that last devices seems much more reasonable
19:05 < gleapsite> device*
19:06 < kanzure> i wonder if that sort of sensory input will work while sleeping
19:06 < gleapsite> I mean, your eyes and ears work
19:06 < kanzure> your eyes will not be able to reliably get massive of information in or out
19:07 < gleapsite> touch (tactile, temperature) works
19:07 < kanzure> *massive amounts of information
19:07 < gleapsite> right
19:07 < gleapsite> but what I'm saying is that all these other senses work while dreaming
19:07 < gleapsite> I'd imagine that your tounge would to
19:08 < kanzure> "your in-flight movie"
19:08 < gleapsite> question is, would the electroshock be enough to wake you up
19:08 < kanzure> on the tongue?
19:08 < gleapsite> yeah
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19:09 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
19:09 < ybit> anyway, augur, i think it's an excellent idea
19:09 < ybit> hi JayDugger
19:10 < kanzure> JayDugger: http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-12.log
19:12 < kanzure> theres an "inception" joke in here somewhere..
19:12 < ybit> i'd be willing to work on something like that at some point, feel free to get in touch with me anytime. xmpp/email:heathmatlock@gmail.com
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19:16 < kanzure> wb gleapsite
19:17 < gleapsite> thanks.  there's no good internet where I live.  So I'm on a hacked smartphone...  which drops if I receive a call.
19:49 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
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20:15 < QuantumG> "The paper is in Arxiv, and has not been peer-reviewed. They refer to Craig Venter as "G. Vinter." I won't hold my breath until these results are replicated by third parties."
20:15 < QuantumG> haha
20:18 < kanzure> g vinter geee
20:42 < kanzure> *venter
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21:38 < augur> ybit: what now
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23:33 < fenn> sparkfun's quiz thing is pretty cool
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23:52 < timschmidt> wow, free day was much less publicized this year
23:53 < timschmidt> people getting greedy
23:54 < genehacker> heh
23:55 < genehacker> our robotics club is really hoping to rake in the goods
23:55 < genehacker> we're have a freeday party
--- Log closed Thu Jan 13 00:00:04 2011