--- Log opened Thu Jan 13 00:00:04 2011
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02:42 < fenn> http://vimeo.com/channels/neuronirvana
02:55 < fenn> hum, nevermind
03:02 < Utopiah> epitron: iirc you were interesting in large graph, might like http://gephi.org if you didn't already play with it
03:04 < epitron> Utopiah: hah, yeah, that was a while ago.. good memory
03:04 < epitron> this looks nice
03:05 < Utopiah> the wiki has extra metrics and layouts if the default install doesn't have the ones you need
03:06 < epitron> i still don't understand why people draw all the edges
03:06 < epitron> it makes the graph insanely hard to read :)
03:06 < Utopiah> (and funny things like http://vimeo.com/18591468 )
03:06 < epitron> there are techniques of hiding them... like force-directed edge grouping, or using force fields
03:07 < epitron> err.. energy fields.. like.. just colouring the background around the nodes to represent how hot the connection density is
03:09 < Utopiah> guess it's to give an connectivity "feeling" for people not familiar with how layouts work
03:10 < epitron> yeah..
03:10 < epitron> or maybe it's just that it's the easiest thing to implement, and it's open source...
03:10 < epitron> and everyone else implements it that way
03:11 < epitron> this is a pretty crazy thing though... and it has layout plugins, so booya :)
03:22 < epitron> here' two plugins that this guy needs:
03:22 < epitron> http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project.cfm?id=616
03:22 < epitron> http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project.cfm?id=215
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05:25 < dbolser> The information for synthesizing the molecules that allow organisms to survive and replicate is encoded in genomic DNA. In the cell, DNA is copied to messenger RNA, and triplet codons (64) in the messenger RNA are decoded - in the process of translation - to synthesize polymers of the natural 20 amino acids. This process (DNA RNA protein) describes the central dogma of molecular biology and is conserved in terrestrial life. We are interested in re-w
05:26 < dbolser> Jason Chin, Cambridge, Tuesday 25 January at 1600 hours, Small Lecture Theatre, Wellcome Trust Centre for Gene Regulation & Expression and MRC,
05:30 < dbolser> Flow Map Layout could realy help with my genome scaffolding problem
05:31 < Lukas__> It cut off at "We are interested in re-w"
05:32 < dbolser> Lukas__: sorry
05:32 < Lukas__> No problem
05:33 < dbolser> We are interested in re-writing the central dogma to create organisms
05:33 < dbolser> that synthesize proteins containing unnatural amino acids and polymers
05:33 < dbolser> composed of monomer building blocks beyond the 20 natural amino
05:33 < dbolser> acids. I will discuss our invention and synthetic evolution of new
05:33 < dbolser> 'orthogonal' translational components (including ribosomes and
05:33 < dbolser> aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases) to address the major challenges in
05:33 < dbolser> re-writing the central dogma of biology. I will discuss the
05:33 < dbolser> application of the approaches we have developed for incorporating
05:33 < dbolser> unnatural amino acids into proteins and investigating and
05:33 < dbolser> synthetically controlling diverse biological processes, with a
05:33 < dbolser> particular emphasis on understanding the role of post-translational
05:33 < dbolser> modifications.
05:34 < Lukas__> Link please?
05:34 < dbolser> google Jason Chin, Cambridge?
05:34 < dbolser> its from an eamil about a local seminar, so there is no link to hand
05:34 < Utopiah> http://www2.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/group-leaders/a-to-g/j-chin
05:34 < Lukas__> Also, is there any talk of incorporating synthetic base pairs ?
05:35 < dbolser> mrc-lmb is the best place on earth for molecular biology
05:35 < dbolser> Lukas__: people do do that
05:35 < dbolser> also there are peptide analogues of DNA that are robust
05:36 < Lukas__> I didn't know that was done
05:37 < dbolser> only for short pieces afaik
05:37 < dbolser> they are resistant to nuclease activity
05:37 < dbolser> l8r
05:37 < Lukas__> I only heard:  http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13252-artificial-letters-added-to-lifes-alphabet.html
05:38 < Lukas__> but I didn't know anything came of it
06:33 < kanzure> yeah a number of different labs have done that by now, Lukas__
06:34 < Lukas__> heh, I need to lurk more
06:39 < Lukas__> Is there any information on what new properties these artificial amino acids and polymers have?
06:40 < kanzure> 3 GB uploaded http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/
06:43 < kanzure> including an old copy of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/microfluidics/ (the full upload of /papers/microfluidics/ will come later in the list)
06:43 < kanzure> Lukas__: i don't presently remember a good overview article
06:44 < Lukas__> thanks
06:44 < kanzure> Lukas__: search on http://scholar.google.com for 'unnatural base pairs' and 'unnatural nucleotides' and 'unnatural amino acids'
06:44 < kanzure> "Efforts toward expansion of the genetic alphabet: replication of DNA with three base pairs"
06:45 < kanzure> Unnatural base pair systems for DNA/RNA-based biotechnology http://www.biochem.wisc.edu/courses/biochem704/Reading/HiraoCurrOpinChemBio06.pdf
06:45 < kanzure> Unnatural base pairs for specific transcription http://www.pnas.org/content/98/9/4922.full
06:45 < kanzure> A two-unnatural-base-pair system toward the expansion of the genetic code
06:45 < kanzure> Efforts toward the expansion of the genetic alphabet: information storage and replication with unnatural hydrophobic base pairs
06:46 < kanzure> Optimization of unnatural base pair packing for polymerase recognition http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536690/
06:46 < kanzure> Enzymatic incorporation of a new base pair into DNA and RNA extends the genetic alphabet http://www.ffame.org/sbenner/nature343.33-37.pdf
06:46 < kanzure> anywho.. yeah.
06:47 < Lukas__> O.o
06:47 < Lukas__> I am surprised all of this went over my head
06:47 < Lukas__> thanks guys
06:48 < kanzure> yeah, well, science reporting really sucks
06:48 < kanzure> so you shouldn't trust physorg, sciencenews, or whatever other site you read.. just read the papers directly
06:50 < Lukas__> yea, they really drop the ball sometimes
06:53 < kanzure> video alert
06:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us:9000/s/-1-5-ben-best-cryonics-introduction-and-technical-challenges
06:54 < Lukas__> Did you watch it?
06:54 < Utopiah> YT copy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXcHD5hFj50
06:55 < Lukas__> thanks, did you watch it?
06:56 < kanzure> no, there's no way i can watch all 600 hours of these videos
06:56 < kanzure> i suppose there *is* but it will take me a while
06:57 < Lukas__> :D  true
06:57 < Lukas__> I just want to make sure they are talking about actual research
06:58 < kanzure> ooh a bigdog talk http://diyhpl.us:9000/s/bigdog-the-rough-terrain-robot
06:58 < kanzure> Lukas__: yeah, ben best talks about actual research ;)
06:59 < Lukas__> okay, thanks
06:59 < Lukas__> Kanzure, how long do you think it'll be until we start strapping fire arms on the bigdog?
06:59 < Lukas__> I give it 5 or so years
07:05 < kanzure> i thought that's what it's for? carrying firearms?
07:11 < Lukas__> Nope
07:11 < Lukas__> it's a robotic mule
07:11 < Lukas__> at least for now
07:13 < kanzure> uh yeah what do you think it's doing, carrying stones?
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07:32 < Lukas__> A soldier's pack - item's they'd need in the field .  Bigdog allows a squad to carry what they need without weighing themselves down, allowing infantry to carry combat gear without having to worry about other stuff increases combat effectiveness
07:32 < Lukas__> I think a soldier's pack is somewhere around 50-80lbs
07:33 < Lukas__> so traveling light (especially in tough terrain) will be a big help
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07:47 < gloop> dbolser: does your codon re-writing interest integrate the natural evolution of the polar-requirement of optomized codons? http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/q-bio/pdf/0605/0605036v1.pdf
07:48 < gloop> the codons are redundant for a reason
07:50 < gloop> http://www.springerlink.com/content/p7r3324138u62120/
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07:55 < strages> !note Gregabyte_ http://home.c2i.net/metaphor/mvpage.html
08:01 < dbolser> gloop: indeed
08:01 < dbolser> but for synbio, we aren't at the stage where we need to engineer robustly
08:01 < dbolser> engineering at all is the first step
08:02 < gloop> i'd imagine that it'd be preferable to have synthetic organisms not survive beyond their intended use
08:02 < gloop> thus their generations would lose out to mutation errors
08:02 < gloop> programmed into the machinery
08:03 < gloop> designed to error, or designed to survive...depending on the use
08:04 < gloop> (correction: they're not mutually exlcusive)
08:04 < gloop> (self-correction)
08:05 < kanzure> http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/what-should-a-reasonable-person-believe-about-the-singularity/
08:05 < timschmidt> :( sparkfun
08:07 < kanzure> this reminds me of theuncertainfuture.com.. a little something i worked on a whiel back
08:07 < kanzure> oh, someone mentions it in the comments
08:07 < genehacker> :( sparkfun
08:09 < genehacker> I'm in!
08:09 < timschmidt> :-/
08:09 < timschmidt> not here
08:11 < genehacker> well I'm not in anymore
08:13 < genehacker> i'm in again!
08:16 < timschmidt> making it any further?
08:18 < genehacker> no
08:18 < genehacker> stuck
08:18 < timschmidt> haven't made it in yet here
08:19 < genehacker> ok goto http://www.sparkfun.com/free_day/quiz
08:19 < genehacker> quick shot
08:19 < timschmidt> woo!
08:19 < genehacker> wonder if it's better to have multitabs refreshing it
08:19 < timschmidt> no, not quite
08:26 < kanzure> sparkfun getting raepd on freeday again?
08:26 < timschmidt> of course
08:26 < timschmidt> they're exceptional at DDoSing themselves
08:28 < kanzure> genehacker: you can also try /join #sparkfun
08:29 < kanzure> insanity
08:29 < kanzure> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3949700/SparkfunCrash.jpg
08:30 < genehacker> i'm in it
08:32  * archels got to the front page
08:32 < archels> ... and that's about it.
08:34 < archels> Quiz is probably a no-no due to interpreted server side scripting.
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08:49 < genehacker> can't get through
08:54 < kanzure> Interview with hacker anthropologist Biella Coleman http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/13/interview-with-hacke.html
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08:54 < kanzure> cambridge synthetic biology http://www.synbio.org.uk/index.php
08:55 < kanzure> russell durret has a blog now http://russelldurrett.com/
08:55 < kanzure> http://biopunk.hu/2011/01/12/cyberpunk/ "A documentary about cyberpunk from 1993 (or 1990 if IMDB is right) featuring William Gibson and Timothy Leary."
08:56 < kanzure> hrm i can't extract the google video link from that embed
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09:04 < timschmidt> one hour in...  still attempting to get to the quiz
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09:35 < timschmidt> SO CLOSE
09:36 < kanzure> timschmidt: you should use wget/curl to submit the quiz
09:37 < timschmidt> I should.  Wish I was confident enough to craft the command properly the first time
09:37 < kanzure> i'll help
09:53 < genehacker> dammit can't load images
10:07 < delinquentme> kanzure, do you have any idea of the costs associated with running a online web app for ~ 1mil users?
10:08 < delinquentme> i got in a nice little internet fist fight w some kid in #rubyonrails over what a "system" is .. and im looking for a generalish answer
10:10 < archels> ah, suddenly it's over.
10:10 < archels> Apparently *some* people got through.
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10:23 < kanzure> delinquentme: nah i've never had a site go that big
10:23 < kanzure> but it really depends on how much data you're transferring out and how many page requests per second you need to serve upp
10:24 < delinquentme> awesome
10:24 < delinquentme> if anything else comes to mind as far as variable or fixed costs im all ears
10:24 < delinquentme> and is it accurate to measure expenses in # of users?
10:24 < delinquentme> or is the data transfer a better metric?
10:25 < kanzure> no number of users is a bad metric
10:25 < kanzure> data transfer (GB in/out per month) is useful because you can go look at bandwidth costs
10:26 < kanzure> but you also have to factor in stuff like how much data you're storing on the server, or how many cores you'll need for peak load
10:33 < kanzure> stalk: moteyalpha
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12:15 < kanzure> anyone want to mess around with nanoengineer for me today?
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12:35 < Lukas__> ?
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12:46 < Utopiah> Utilizing the Social Graph as a Relevancy Source for Data Ranking  http://www.wireblur.com/discuss/498
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13:19 < jrayhawk> Hi, Jebba. I remember you from the Mer project.
13:23 < jrayhawk> and also giving a slightly terrifying amount of money to wikipedia
13:25 < Lukas__> ?
13:25 < kanzure> $20,000. impressive :)
13:25 < Lukas__> D:
13:25 < Lukas__> That is extreme
13:25 < Lukas__> good man
13:25 < Lukas__> :D
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13:31 < jrayhawk> Bryan: I'm probably going to be shutting down Gnusha sometime tonight for upgrades.
13:32 < kanzure> what's the shut down for?
13:33 < jrayhawk> an X7DB8+, two X5355s, and 12 gigs of memory
13:33 < kanzure> yummy
13:41 < Lukas__> sweet
13:42 < kanzure> what am i doing wrong? /script exec foreach my \$channel (Irssi::channels()) { print \$channel->{name}; }
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13:52 < kanzure> aha: /script exec foreach (Irssi::channels()) { print $_->{name}; }
13:53  * kanzure is now ready for jrayhawk's damage
14:00 < kanzure> telomerase patent was granted today
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14:01 < Utopiah> do you monitor new pending patent on keywords?
14:01 < kanzure> no i just get massive amounts of spam
14:20 < jebba> hey jrayhawk. Took me awhile to remember wtf mer was. ;)
14:21 < jebba> i figure it will be easier to print a phone on a reprap than get an open phone from nokia  ;)
14:24 < jrayhawk> apparently you can get a openish phone out of nokia so long as you enter into a multimillion dollar platform engineering effort with them
14:27 < jrayhawk> The only big closedness problems were the modem and the battery management entity, and I think source for those is now available from meego.
14:27 < jebba> oh no no no. No source for that stuff still, i would (without looking) be pretty sure.
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14:29 < jebba> last i looked (admittedly, like in October), there were plenty of nokia binaries needed to get functionality on meego/n900. And in fact, i dont think all that functionality was brought over even in binary form (at least back then).  Long term they are going ofono which is floss, but i dont know of the status of ofono with any current nokia phone (except the calls I made with it on the n900/maemo).
14:33 < jrayhawk> Oct 13: 'we now have 3G audio call functionality with proper ofono signaling and pulse audio stack working on N900, including our brand new open source modem adaptation for N900!'
14:35 < jrayhawk> They claimed they were getting close to getting the BME working back in, like, July, but I can't find news on that.
14:38 < jebba> Ya, but that BME working was still a binary kludge, iirc
14:38 < jrayhawk> Lame. Typical Nokia, I guess.
14:39 < jrayhawk> Keep the promises around in a sufficiently plausible form that people stick around, but never actually keep them.
14:39 < jrayhawk> errr, fulfill them.
14:43 < jebba> There's a huge list of that no doubt
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16:07 < fenn> kanzure: AR assembly instructions from cad data http://youtube.com/watch?v=vOhiZ37aaww
16:10 < kanzure> "AR lego" shows up under 'related videos'
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16:52 < gloop> delinquentme: can you use a GPU's cores to act as server clusters?
16:52 < gloop> gpgpus, etc.
17:00 < delinquentme> gloop, im not sure?
17:00 < delinquentme> umm actually i think not
17:00 < kanzure> one of my older projects:
17:00 < kanzure> http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/3qp/link_the_uncertain_future_the_future_according_to/
17:00 < delinquentme> be GPU cores dont have separate RAM etc
17:00 < kanzure> we're working on getting it open sourced
17:02 < gloop> i just thought about it since today there was an article on slashdot about GPU-accelerated servers
17:02 < gloop> on Amazon
17:03 < gloop> EC2
17:03 < kanzure> yeah i use the gpu-accelerated ec2 units for cracking your passwords
17:03  * kanzure is pals with lolhashcat
17:04 < kanzure> http://hashcat.net/oclhashcat/
17:05 < gloop> well bulldozers will have 8 cores, and 16 cores in the next year i think
17:07 < gloop> oh yeah, this should definitely be able to handle 1 million users: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3768/seamicro-announces-sm10000-server-with-512-atom-cpus-and-low-power-consumption
17:09 < gloop> i'd like to see one using ARM cores though (<100mW)
17:14 < joshcryer> Aww, I missed that SparkFun nonsense. :(
17:15 < joshcryer> gloop, there'll be a 20 core bulldozer by 2012.
17:15 < joshcryer> 2 ghz cores.
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17:16 < gloop> cool. i have an amd biostar that i can upgrade to 6 cores
17:17 < gloop> my current chip suffices though
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17:22 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
17:23 < gloop> howdy
17:24 < joshcryer> Hey JayDugger
17:24 < joshcryer> jaytabtabtab
17:26 < kanzure> fenn: fyi, kartik is getting humanity+ on board with the $80,000 grand reprap prize thing
17:26 < kanzure> so we're fixing a few of the mistakes this time around
17:26 < kanzure> like setting specific deadlines and terms/conditions
17:26 < kanzure> presently the only written text about the grand prize is under its own section here: http://gadaprize.org/
17:26 < kanzure> i'd really like to convince him that bounties are a better idea for this
17:27 < kanzure> since the whole prize thing has way too many weird dynamics
17:27 < kanzure> (for instance, people are encouraged by the prize criteria presently to not disclose their work, because if they do, other people might spend more time on it and improve it to a point where their original work is worth pretty much nothing)
17:27 < JayDugger> What argument have you tried, and who do you mean by "him?"
17:27 < kanzure> (so they have reason to delay)
17:27 < kanzure> JayDugger: the person is "kartik" (see the first message in that sequence..)
17:27 < JayDugger> Done. Who's that?
17:28 < kanzure> http://gadaprize.org/ the guy who organized this at foresight institute
17:28 < kanzure> i thought you reviewed this for me
17:28 < JayDugger> Thank you.
17:30 < JayDugger> Yeah, but I've been off my nootropics.
17:30 < kanzure> jebba: i didn't see your PMs earlier, sorry :/
17:30 < kanzure> jebba: http://openmanufacturing.org/ was just http://heybryan.org/om.html and http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
17:33 < gloop> kanzure, but if they improve on their work, what if their a modular aspect of their original design ends up having some other function in another design?
17:34 < gloop> *if there is a modular
17:34 < kanzure> gloop: well presently the idea is to split up the award money
17:34 < JayDugger> Really:
17:34 < kanzure> i think just paying reprap developers for specific developments is more efficient
17:35 < kanzure> i.e. for $10k i bet tim schmidt or prusa or vik could get a lot of those tasks done.
17:35 < JayDugger> If you do that, how would you get an integrated system instead of a collection of parts?
17:35 < jebba> kanzure ++ to bounties not large prizes. I'll bounty off openmanufacturing.org  ;)
17:35 < kanzure> hi jebba! sorry for me being a deadbet and not re-registering openmanufacturing.org
17:35 < jebba> haha np
17:35 < kanzure> jebba: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb but it seems you've already looked
17:36 < jebba> ya, docs/installing where i'm at right now ;)
17:36 < kanzure> the recent work on it is a specification for hardware packages
17:36 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/package_spec.yaml
17:36 < kanzure> jebba: right now there's no point in installing
17:36 < jebba> gotcha
17:36 < kanzure> one of the dependencies mentioned in doc/installing is opencascade
17:36 < kanzure> for 3D visualization and CAD related voodoo magic,
17:36 < kanzure> which is impractical for a package manager really
17:37 < kanzure> if you *do* install it what you'll be able to do is play around with this demo lego connector that loaded up a lego package and randomly figured out how to connect lego assemblies
17:37 < jebba> hell, there's packages of texlive, why not opencascade?
17:37 < kanzure> again, that's not precisely core functionality for "sudo apt-get install dna-synthesizer"
17:37 < kanzure> jebba: oh, there should be opencascade packages floating around somewhere
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17:38 < kanzure> also of pythonocc (swig wrappers on top of opencascade)
17:38 < jebba> I'll take a look at package_spec.   I've packaged plenty of RPMS/debs over time
17:38 < kanzure> cool :)
17:38 < kanzure> yeah, so, no existing package manager would seem to be a good fit for this
17:38 < kanzure> on the other hand, all existing package managers seem oddly tailored
17:39 < kanzure> which is probably why a new one always springs up for each new language/linux distribution/"knowledge repo"/etc.
17:46 < kanzure> *deadbeat
17:51 < kanzure> jebba: come to think of it, fenn took great pains to make sure skdb could be installed without opencascade/pythonocc, so skdb-client.py will work without occ/pythonocc, but it will fail because it hasn't been maintained anyway
17:51 < kanzure> if that distinction matters :)
17:51 < kanzure> oops, skdb/clients/skdb-get.py not skdb-client.py http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/clients/skdb-get.py
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18:00 < kanzure> hi alystair
18:00 < alystair> aha
18:00 -!- kyrobeshay [~Adium@72.51.124.201] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:00 < alystair> was wondering where this channel ran off to
18:00 < kanzure> yeah sorry about that :(
18:02 < alystair> what's gitduino
18:02 < alystair> git + arduino? :)
18:02 < alystair> git based revisioning of arduino plans?
18:03 < kanzure> and of other open source hardware projects
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18:15 < kanzure> oh sweet
18:15 < kanzure> gleapsite: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/09/21/how-to-lucid-dream/
18:15 < kanzure> "It turns out that eye movement, unlike the rest of the skeletal muscular system, is not inhibited by REM sleep. Subjects could memorize horizontal eye patterns (e.g. left-left-right-right-left-right-left) and repeat the patterns upon becoming lucid, which researchers could observe, all while recording brain activity with an EEG to confirm that the subjects where, in fact, in a dream state."
18:16 < QuantumG> that sounds like a fact made up on the spot
18:17 < kanzure> EEG/EMG can easily grab eye movement data.. or cheap infrared reflectometers that could probably grab eye movement itself (not muscle activity)
18:17 < superkuh> That's an xckd comic.
18:17 < kanzure> QuantumG: cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_LaBerge
18:17 < kanzure> superkuh: i don't recall it
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18:17 < kanzure> superkuh: yesterday we were talking about using an electrotactile tongue display + openeeg for communication into and out of lucid dreams http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-12.log
18:18 < kanzure> one of my questions was whether or not REM corresponded to actual in-dream eye movements.. it seems that was the question they answered to prove lucid dreaming was real in the first place.
18:19 < QuantumG> the left-left-right-right-left-right-left sounds like http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClassicCheatCode
18:20 < kanzure> someone should pitch lucid dreaming eye tracking at quantified self
18:20 < superkuh> The first text I ever posted to the internet was to alt.dreams.lucid. All my knowledge on that subject comes from a long time ago; I don't trust it.
18:20 < kanzure> you don't trust your knowledge or alt.dreams.lucid?
18:20 < superkuh> Mine.
18:21 < QuantumG> heh, every site says "scientifically published work" and then provide no references
18:22 < kanzure> here's a 2010 paper: http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/ojs/index.php/IJoDR/article/view/606/pdf
18:23 < kanzure> has some good references i guess.
18:23 < superkuh> Neat. Thanks.
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18:26 < QuantumG> ok, random idea for ya:  sure, a magic eye movement pattern sounds like a nice way to detect lucid dreaming.. now go one step further and define a technique for outputting text
18:27 < kanzure> eye movement can be used to guide a mouse, pointer, or character in second life
18:27 < JayDugger> Morse code for text?
18:27 < kanzure> dunno if anyone can do morse code in their sleep :)
18:28 < joshcryer> Congrats, you guys just got on the news for the Tuscon thing.
18:28 < joshcryer> :P
18:28 < kanzure> EEG can hardly do typing when you're wake so it's out of the question for sleeping
18:28 < kanzure> tuscon?
18:28 < JayDugger> Does your mother know morse code?
18:28 < joshcryer> s/sc/cs
18:28 < QuantumG> for example, have the subject conjure up a keyboard (we all know what one looks like now) and "type" by eye movements in the air.  Regularly typing the word "goofy" to calibrate the position of the keys
18:28 < JayDugger> Link, joshcryer?
18:29 < joshcryer> uh I'd rather google not pick up my joke and make it real
18:29 < QuantumG> the next morning you get the eye movement data and mine it for "goofy" and then try to extract other words.
18:29 < kanzure> QuantumG: lots of statistics could help with that i bet.
18:29 < kanzure> if brainport works while you're sleeping it would be a lot of help..
18:30 < QuantumG> if you're successful at pulling out whole sentences with minimal error and didn't "cook the data" then you have a nice way to output.
18:30 < QuantumG> brainport is an input device
18:30 < QuantumG> (primarily)
18:30 < kanzure> yes but you could see what character/letter you have typed or selected
18:30 < QuantumG> and if you're receiving stimulus then you're more likely to wake up
18:31 < kanzure> do you lucid dream?
18:31 < QuantumG> the value of the eye movement experiment is that you're producing outputs without receiving inputs
18:31 < QuantumG> thus you're guaranteed that everything is "reflective consciousness" as LaBerge calls it
18:32 < joshcryer> why are we doing this?
18:32 < QuantumG> in your lucid REM state you might actually be creative and smart or something
18:32 < kanzure> i wonder if people with locked-in syndrome have REM
18:32 < QuantumG> me, I expect I'm exactly the same as when I'm drunk
18:32 < joshcryer> I never remember a dream where I am more insightful than not.
18:32 < joshcryer> Usually it's nonsense.
18:32 < kanzure> joshcryer: to be on the internet while dreaming
18:32 < QuantumG> indeed
18:33 < joshcryer> Last night I dreampt I couldn't run. My legs weighed 10 times what they normally could, and I was being chased.
18:33 < QuantumG> I usually wake up from a "funny dream" and think back on the "great joke I came up with" and decide I'm not funny
18:33 < QuantumG> exactly the same as when I'm drunk :)
18:33 < joshcryer> This is ridiculous, I can do a 6 minute mile.
18:33 < kanzure> joshcryer: lucid dreaming isn't the same.
18:34 < QuantumG> lucid dreaming to me is typically of the form "oh my god you're the most boring subconscious in the world.. I'm taking over this dream now"
18:35 < QuantumG> anyway, ya know what I want to figure out?  lucid night terrors
18:36 < joshcryer> That's what I had. I mean, I cannot run, therefore I must be dreaming. :)
18:36 < joshcryer> "There exist no evidence for why my legs should weigh 10x what they normally do, therefore this is not real."
18:36 < QuantumG> I get night terrors.. the first few times were seriously frightening.  I was sure I was awake and seeing a giant spider.
18:36 < joshcryer> How giant?
18:37 < QuantumG> lately, my brain says "night terror eh?  you enjoy that" and all I feel is terror.. and so I just go "what?  why the terror?  ok, whatever, ARGGH, go back to sleep"
18:37 < QuantumG> dog sized
18:38 < joshcryer> Yeah
18:38 < QuantumG> I also saw a snake or two
18:38 < QuantumG> the problem with night terrors is they're so quick
18:38 < QuantumG> there's no time to do the usual lucid dreaming tricks of reality testing
18:39 < joshcryer> Eh, my dreams are very much not of this reality so I am very rarely tricked by them.
18:39 < joshcryer> The only time is when I find coins in a dream.
18:39 < QuantumG> well, you're supposed to develop your dreams before you try lucid dreaming
18:40 < QuantumG> write a dream journal and suck
18:40 < QuantumG> err, such
18:40 < joshcryer> Takes me like two hours to fall asleep.
18:40 < joshcryer> My dreams can fuck off.
18:40 < QuantumG> if you're not remembering 8+ dreams a night then you're not developed
18:40 < JayDugger> Eight? Good lord.
18:41 < QuantumG> I'm lazy, these days I don't remember 1
18:41 < JayDugger> I might have that many in a year.
18:41 < joshcryer> I remember one a night these days, right before my damn alarm clock goes off.
18:41 < QuantumG> put a book next to your bed and write down anything when you wake up..
18:41 < joshcryer> It's actually quite amazing because I'll open my eyes a minute before it goes off.
18:43 < QuantumG> some people totally lose it though.. they start writing a dream journal and quickly discover they are their most creative as soon as they wake up..
18:43 < QuantumG> never get out of bed, think they're going to make it as a writer, etc.
18:43 < joshcryer> I'm most creative when I'm awake 20+ hours.
18:44 < joshcryer> It's why I have a hard time sleeping.
18:44 < joshcryer> I totally wrote this brillian expose on stupid networking in my head last night.
18:44 < QuantumG> surely that's drunken creativity though
18:44 < joshcryer> I think I might write it out and see what you guys think later on, we'll see.
18:44 < joshcryer> No, it's really pretty ridiculously awesome.
18:45 < kanzure> heh my mom is talking to me about her lucid dreaming
18:45 < kanzure> she's totally into this.
18:45 < gleapsite> Me as well.
18:45 < QuantumG> uh huh.  I used to code drunk at vmware.  it was great because we had totally automated build-and-test.
18:46 < QuantumG> it's like:  breath in, write 100 lines of code, hit build, breath out
18:46 < gleapsite> here's a way to inject your dreams with a sign that makes you realize you're dreaming: http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Lucid-Dream-Machine/
18:46 < QuantumG> or you can just train yourself, it's not hard
18:47 < joshcryer> Mainly I just use art of memory tricks and just put the best stuff aside for later.
18:48 < JayDugger> By "art of memory" do you mean the particular mnemonics in Francis Yates' book, or some other things:
18:53 < kanzure> gleapsite: what's interesting about my mom as a test subject is that she has an identical twin
18:53 < joshcryer> JayDugger, oops, sorry, didn't see your question, I mean the general art of memory.
18:53 < joshcryer> JayDugger, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory
18:53 < JayDugger> Does your aunt have similar lucid dreaming skill?
18:53 < gleapsite> kanzure: does her twin share her enthusiasm?
18:53 < kanzure> i haven't asked her yet
18:54 < joshcryer> JayDugger, I followed Harry Lorayne and Jerry Lucas' approach, but it's all pretty much the same.
18:59 < JayDugger> Even if eye-movement during lucid dreaming can't output text, you might at least use it to trigger an automatic record of the act of dreaming.
19:04 < kanzure> Roffwarg, H., Dement, W. C., Muzio, J., & Fisher, C. (1962). Dream imagery: Relationship to rapid eye movements of sleep. Archives of General Psychiatry, 7, 235-238.
19:06 < gleapsite> I hate when papers are publicly available.
19:06 < gleapsite> aren't*
19:06 < kanzure> "paperleaks" may or may not be in the process of getting deployed
19:07 < superkuh> QuantumG: There used to be a LCD glasses kit that would detect REM and flash lights at programmed intervals, pc parallel port.
19:08 < kanzure> "that dreamed movements result in corresponding patterns of muscle twitching"
19:09 < QuantumG> yeah, as I said, simple training will suffice.
19:09 < kanzure> oh cool. someone studied morse code communication.
19:09 < superkuh> Er, s/LCD/LED/
19:10 < kanzure> but they only communicated their initials? why
19:11 < kanzure> from page 130 http://www.lucidipedia.com/downloads/lucidityinstitute_researchpapers.pdf
19:11 < QuantumG> someone should make a movie about lucid dreaming where the dream sequences are hand animations
19:11 < QuantumG> (cause that's about the level of detail of most people's dreams)
19:13 < JayDugger> Wasn't that done? "A Waking Life" or some such?
19:13 < QuantumG> I dunno what that was about
19:14 < QuantumG> just someone showing off that they can grind painting over film
19:14 < JayDugger> I haven't seen it either.
19:14 < QuantumG> I think I watched it.. I have little memory
19:14 < kanzure> there was there was "to the end of the world" if that counts
19:14 < QuantumG> A Scanner Darkly was better :)
19:14 < kanzure> or "the matrix"
19:16 < kanzure> laberge has coauthored with zimbardo? huh
19:19 < JayDugger> Laberge, S. (1980). Lucid dreaming: An exploratory study of  consciousness during sleep. (Ph.D. thesis, Stanford University, 1980),  (University Microfilms No. 80-24, 691)
19:19 < JayDugger> That's probably the connection.
19:19 < QuantumG> does "muscle twitching" happen with tranquillizers?
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19:20 < QuantumG> as in, if you get tranqed and try to move do your muscles twitch in a detectable way?
19:22 < QuantumG> I suppose I'm incorrectly assuming the existence of a general anaesthetic that doesn't affect consciousness
19:30 < kanzure> dunno.
19:31 < kanzure> heh laberge studied vEMG or "vaginal electromyography"
19:31 < JayDugger> Go Science!
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19:44 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
19:45 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-75-194.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:24 < kanzure> ralith is heating up for a lolcad discussion in #reprap
21:07 < augur> philip glass is the musician of the deep-future post-singularity world. just sayin'.
21:07 < kanzure> http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2011/01/hard-takeoff-hypothesis.html
21:07 < kanzure> augur: philip glass is my homie
21:07 < kanzure> fenn's too apparently.
21:08 < augur> *-qatsi is amazing.
21:08 < augur> or should that be are
21:08 < augur> hmm
21:09 < augur> if *x denotes p0x, p1x, and p2x collectively, is *x a singular or plural noun
21:09 < augur> or mass?
21:09 < augur> surely it should be plural, no?
21:09 < augur> *qatsi ~ koyaanisqatsi, powaqqatsi, and naqoyqatsi
21:10 < augur> so where the latter goes, the former goes
21:10 < augur> so surely it should be *qatsi are amazing
21:11 < kanzure> i only really enjoyed koyaanisqatsi .. the others were less than stellar
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21:12 < augur> bah
21:12 < augur> thats not the question
21:12 < augur> :P
21:13 < augur> is *qatsi singular or plural
21:14 < augur> aha!
21:14 < augur> no
21:15 < augur> *qatsi is singular, and means "some qatsi or other"
21:15 < augur> or "any qatsi" or whatever
21:15 < augur> so {*qatsi} must be the set of all qatsi's, e.g. {koyaanisqatsi, powaqqatsi, naqoyqatsi}
21:15 < augur> and so {*qatsi} is plural
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21:35 < kanzure> gleapsite: http://www.dreamviews.com/f32/dream-glove-communication-95488/
21:35 < kanzure> "Once this has been completed I will be writing a program (probaby in Java) that will interpret these movements so that it can positively identify individual finger movements despite the sensor noise generated by movement of the hand and/or movement of an adjacent finger"
21:36 < kanzure> haha @ this update: http://www.dreamviews.com/f32/dream-glove-communication-95488/#post1435815
21:36 < superkuh> NovaDreamer!
21:36 < superkuh> That was the kit.
21:36 < jrayhawk> supposedly baraka was better
21:37 < kanzure> baraka was not better
21:37 < jrayhawk> noted
21:37 < superkuh> http://www.lucidity.com/novadreamer.html
21:37 < kanzure> #8 is funny too..
21:37 < kanzure> "Waiting for the rest of the parts in the mail. In the meantime I'm training myself to tap out hello world with my index and middle fingers. It's quite alot of taps and shorthand may prove useful in the future."
21:37 < kanzure> H - r r r r
21:37 < kanzure> E - r
21:37 < kanzure> L - r l r r
21:37 < kanzure> L - r l r r
21:37 < kanzure> O - l l l
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21:40 < kanzure> "
21:40 < kanzure> There has been at least one experiment in which a person was hypnotized to talk in their sleep, and narrated the events of their dreams to a researcher. The case that I know of was a person with a history of talking in his sleep, though. Still, it merits a closer investigation.
21:40 < kanzure> ha
21:40 < kanzure> multi-player dream games http://www.dreaminglucid.com/issues/LDE%2054.pdf
21:42 < kanzure> eh that article was lame.
21:42 < kanzure> was this it? http://xkcd.com/269/
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21:52 < superkuh> Yes.
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22:27 < kanzure> lol everyone is going to be so pissed if i convert the $80k gada prize into an $80k "here, just go do this" fund
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22:31 < QuantumG> it'd be interesting to see an organization that did do that though
22:32 < kanzure> right.. especially for open sources tuff.
22:32 < kanzure> *stuff
22:32 < kanzure> for some reason reprap people seem to get a lot of stuff done for low cash
22:32 < QuantumG> "we thought technology X is being ignored, so we came up with a direction we think it should be going in and threw some money at it and look!"
22:33 < QuantumG> one of the guys in the local hackerspace was just mentioning that he's building a Mendel
22:33 < QuantumG> there's already 3 in the hackerspace
22:33 < kanzure> on the other hand.. i do have personal incentive to make the $80k fundraising thing work, because it shows i'm able to raise more money
22:33 < QuantumG> I felt like saying "why don't you innovate already?"
22:33 < kanzure> but that's at the risk of perpetuating a possibly unstable prize structure thing for reprap stuff
22:36 < QuantumG> just went into my local welding shop and asked them if they had any pulse TIGs
22:37 < QuantumG> guy shows me one.. rants about it for about 30 seconds.  I point at the price tag that says $2600 and say "is that for this one?" and he's like, no, and shows me the price tag for the pulse TIG: $5100
22:38 < QuantumG> thanks for that.  A regular TIG is about $569.  I wonder what makes pulse TIG so different.
22:40 < QuantumG> or maybe that place is just expensive
22:40 < QuantumG> Tig200PAc/Dc 200 Amp Tig Pulse & MMA Inverter Welder $1,695
22:41 < QuantumG> still too rich for my blood, but maybe it'll have good resale value
22:56 < QuantumG> http://www.weldersdirect.com.au/product/506/200_AMP_PULSE_DC_TIG_WELDER_WITH_STICK_CAPABILITY $500
22:59 < QuantumG> that's more like it
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 14 00:00:04 2011