--- Log opened Fri Jan 14 00:00:04 2011 00:03 -!- JaredW [~JaredW@118.142.17.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:12 -!- JaredW [~JaredW@118.142.17.238] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:16 < kanzure> Khamilia Bedelbaeva, Andrew Snyder, Dmitri Gourevitch, Lise Clark, Xiang-Ming Zhang, John Leferovich, James M. Cheverud, Paul Lieberman, and Ellen Heber-Katz. Lack of p21 expression links cell cycle control and appendage regeneration in mice. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2010; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1000830107 00:16 < kanzure> in the news: http://www.physorg.com/news187879295.html 00:17 < kanzure> pdf: http://www.chri.org/images/April%207,%202010_Kieran_Ritchie_PNAS-2010-Bedelbaeva-5845-50.pdf 00:17 < joshcryer> Wow. 00:18 < kanzure> oops bad pdf link :( 00:19 < kanzure> pdf: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/13/5845.full.pdf 00:20 < joshcryer> Cute evolutionary discussion on the thread. 00:20 < kanzure> also, "robocop" is a much more bizarre movie than i recalled 00:21 < joshcryer> Hehe 00:21 < joshcryer> I have not seen that movie since I was a kid, I tried, but, I couldn't bare to watch. 00:23 < joshcryer> Ahh, that's a rather dated development, wonder why I didn't hear of it. 00:24 < joshcryer> I guess I wasn't lurking around here at that time. --- Log opened Fri Jan 14 02:34:52 2011 02:34 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:34 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio http://bit.ly/diybionews http://gitduino.com/ http://hplusmagazine.com/ http://gadaprize.org/ | logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/ 02:34 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Thu Dec 23 15:28:23 2010] 02:34 [Users ##hplusroadmap] 02:34 [ AlonzoTG] [ dbolser ] [ Helleshin] [ kanzure_1] [ QuantumG ] 02:34 [ archels ] [ drazak ] [ Jappe2 ] [ mjr ] [ saurik ] 02:34 [ augur ] [ elmom ] [ JaredW ] [ nchaimov ] [ superkuh ] 02:34 [ bkero ] [ epitron ] [ jebba ] [ niftyzero] [ timschmidt] 02:34 [ CIA-67 ] [ ferrouswheel] [ joshcryer] [ nsh ] [ Utopiah ] 02:34 [ clemux ] [ g4k ] [ jrabbit ] [ pasky ] [ wrldpc2 ] 02:34 [ Daeken ] [ gnusha ] [ jrayhawk ] [ phryk ] [ ybit ] 02:34 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 35 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 35 normal] 02:34 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 02:34 -!- Irssi: Join to ##hplusroadmap was synced in 4 secs 02:37 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:42 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:45 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:46 < jrayhawk> whois Grin 02:46 < jrayhawk> whoops 02:50 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:54 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:59 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:03 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:03 -!- drazak [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04 -!- drazak [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:09 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:14 < mjr> https://blog.itu.dk/efficientcomputation/2011/01/12/np-hardness-in-first-grade/ 03:14 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:15 -!- drazak [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:20 -!- drazak [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:22 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:25 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:27 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:30 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:33 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:38 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:39 < Lukas__> Good morning 03:42 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:46 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:50 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:54 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:00 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:01 < Grin> whoops indeed 04:05 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:17 < Grin> Really? 04:17 < Grin> You sad little man. 04:21 < Grin> Perchance I was misled. 04:35 < Lukas__> ? 05:43 < Grin> As to the character of this channel's inhabitants. 05:43 < Grin> But then, it is important not to judge based upon first impressions. 05:49 < archels> whois Grin 05:49 < archels> OOPS 05:49 < mjr> indeed, one could get the impression of you being a total wanker 05:51 < Lukas__> XD 06:02 < Grin> I tend to give what I get. 06:03 < Grin> Which in this case would be blind hostility. 06:05 < archels> so bitter :( 06:09 < Lukas__> Hello Grin 06:10 < Grin> Salutations. 06:11 < Lukas__> Nice to meet you 06:11 < Lukas__> I'm relatively new here 06:12 < Grin> I'm entirely new here. 06:13 < Grin> In fact, I haven't been on IRC in over two years. 06:13 < Lukas__> Nice 06:13 < Lukas__> This is the first IRC channel I've been on 06:14 < Grin> My friend spoke of it very highly. 06:20 < Lukas__> It's alright 06:20 < Lukas__> so who told you about this place? 06:21 < Utopiah> (feedback on quora?) 06:22 < Grin> Gleapsite 06:22 < Lukas__> never heard of him/ her 06:23 < Lukas__> but then again, I am a neewbie 06:23 < Lukas__> :D 06:23 < Lukas__> ah Thingiverse 06:27 < Grin> Not surprising. He has a notirously short attention span. He isn't the type to linger. 06:28 < Lukas__> heh 06:28 < Lukas__> well, welcome to hplusroadmap 06:30 < Grin> My welcome was having some petty asshat from oregon registering my handle while I slept. 06:30 < Grin> Because apparently the multiple identities he has already aren't enough to compensate for his passive-aggressive cowardice and/or small penis. 06:40 < Grin> It's a pity I missed the conversation about lucid dreaming as well. 06:42 < Lukas__> D: 06:44 < Lukas__> I am sorry 06:44 < Lukas__> I really have no idea who would do that to you 07:05 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-75-194.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:06 < Grin> this "jr" character, apparently 07:08 < Grin> It actually woke me up this morning... all the beeping from him trying to get me disconnected 07:11 < Grin> I'm still trying to remember what all the commands are 07:13 < Grin> So, you're from London? I had a chance to visit there this past summer. Not for long though... mostly did touristy shit. Hopefully I'll get a chance to head back some day and go off the map a little. 07:16 < Utopiah> ( http://www.couchsurfing.org can help against "touristy shit" ) 07:19 < Grin> Well, time contraints were my issue. I spent three or four days apiece in Berlin, Amsterdam, and London. 07:19 < Grin> In retrospect it was probably too much moving around... I was just getting my bearings in one place when I had to move on. 07:19 < Grin> Plus it was during the world cup... kinda crazy. 07:22 < Grin> But I don't know when I'll have the means to travel again so it was worth it seeing so much in one trip I guess. 07:39 < kanzure_1> if you want to read the backlogs re: lucid dreaming, see: 07:39 < kanzure_1> http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-12.log 07:39 < kanzure_1> http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-13.log 07:40 < kanzure_1> also, for our bay area dwelling robots, there's a 'personalized medicine conference' on the 18th http://www.pmwc2011.com/ 07:46 < Grin> I should start a dream log, but I hardly ever remember anything even upon first waking. 07:47 < Grin> I think ironically, the more abstract and surreal your dreams are, the harder it can be to realize that you're dreaming sometimes. 07:48 < Grin> It's always the most mundane detail that tips me off, never the crazy shit. 07:59 -!- phreedom [~quassel@109.254.17.41] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:08 < Lukas__> heh, that is interesting 08:08 < Lukas__> I find no problem having lucid dreams 08:11 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone. 08:12 < Grin> I've never had any of the normal dreams that most people talk about...being late somewhere and forgetting your clothes and things like that 08:13 < Grin> Sometimes I'm not even in my dreams, really. I'm just kind of watching from a bird's eye view. 08:13 < Grin> morning 08:13 -!- strages [~809e4e63@dev.throwthemind.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:14 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-75-194.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 08:35 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:03 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-24-23-119-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:19 < kanzure_1> http://omicsomics.blogspot.com/2011/01/chromothripsis-cratering-of-chromosomes.html 09:19 < kanzure_1> is about: Massive Genomic Rearrangement Acquired in a Single Catastrophic Event during Cancer Development Cell, 144 (1), 27-40 : 09:20 < kanzure_1> doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2010.11.055 09:20 -!- keen_101 [~hulu@76.76.90.91] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:09 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-40-12.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:14 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:16 -!- klafka1 [~textual@cpe-74-74-152-155.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:21 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24 < kanzure_1> hm.. http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/0113/34-000-year-old-bacteria-discovered-and-it-s-still-alive 10:24 < kanzure_1> "34,000-year-old bacteria: The microbes were discovered in trapped inside tiny bubbles in salt crystals buried in Death Valley, in a state of suspended animation." 10:25 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:25 < Grin> Oh look 10:25 < kanzure_1> Microbial communities in fluid inclusions and long-term survival in halite 10:25 < kanzure_1> abstract: http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/21/1/article/i1052-5173-21-1-4.htm 10:25 < Grin> The Wanker-King has returned 10:26 < kanzure_1> pdf: http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/21/1/pdf/i1052-5173-21-1-4.pdf 10:26 < kanzure_1> "Fluid inclusions in modern and ancient buried halite from Death Valley and Saline Valley, California, USA, contain an ecosystem of “salt-loving” (halophilic) prokaryotes and eukaryotes, some of which are alive. Prokaryotes may survive inside fluid inclusions for tens of thousands of years using carbon and other metabolites supplied by the trapped microbial community, most notably the single-celled alga Dunaliella, an important primary pro 10:26 * Grin slaps jrabbit around a bit with a large trout 10:26 * Grin slaps jrayhawk around a bit with a large trout 10:27 < Grin> Howdy friend. 10:27 < kanzure_1> microscopy: http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/21/1/figure/i1052-5173-21-1-4-f05.htm 10:27 -!- kanzure_1 is now known as kanzure 10:28 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ 10:33 <@kanzure> medical design and manufacturing conference feb7-10 http://www.mdmwest.com/ 10:34 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:38 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:40 <@kanzure> Adrian Cheng, J Tiago Gonçalves, Peyman Golshani, Katsushi Arisaka, Carlos Portera-Cailliau. Simultaneous two-photon calcium imaging at different depths with spatiotemporal multiplexing. Nature Methods, 2011; DOI: 10.1038/nmeth.1552 10:40 <@kanzure> news: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110112110749.htm 10:40 <@kanzure> abstract: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.1552.html 10:40 <@kanzure> pdf: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/bio/Simultaneous%20two-photon%20calcium%20imaging%20at%20different%20depths%20with%20spatiotemporal%20multiplexing.pdf 10:42 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:44 < Utopiah> "versatile package to perform molecular dynamics" http://www.gromacs.org 10:44 <@kanzure> Utopiah: nanoengineer uses that :) 10:45 < Utopiah> nice (I have to agree, he's op) 10:46 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:47 < Utopiah> (glad to see a proper topic btw ;) 10:48 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:53 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:57 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:00 <@kanzure> heh makerbot.com is down because bre is live on CNN at the moment :P 11:01 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:10 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:12 -!- kanzure2 [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:13 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:13 <@kanzure> hi jmil 11:14 < jmil> hiya 11:15 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:15 < jmil> why the change from #hplusroadmap to ##hplusroadmap? 11:15 < Utopiah> freenode rules 11:15 <@kanzure> also so that we can have ops in here 11:17 <@kanzure> fyi i just pushed csg.py to http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad as a sample of how i hope to use lolcad someday 11:17 < Lukas__> It's pretty annoying 11:19 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:23 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- CryptoQuick [~CryptoQui@c-174-51-232-237.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@78.9.72.152] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:37 < Lukas__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw&feature=sub 11:42 < Lukas__> "How to build a toaster from scratch 11:42 < Lukas__> " 11:49 <@kanzure> john cumbers is posting up some jobs for his synthetic biology startup 11:49 <@kanzure> http://ubm.theresumator.com/apply/xG5AjD/Senior-Scientist-Biochemist-Synthetic-Biologist-Biochemical-Engineer.html 11:49 <@kanzure> http://ubm.theresumator.com/apply/5T9Y3v/Senior-Genetics-Scientist-Synthetic-Biologist.html 11:49 <@kanzure> http://ubm.theresumator.com/apply/U1rPJ9/Junior-Researcher-Biochemist-Biochemical-Engineer-Synthetic-Biologist-Molecular-Biologist-Geneticist.html 11:51 < Lukas__> O.O 11:51 < Lukas__> thanks 11:55 < Lukas__> grr - why does everything have to start up on the West Coast? 11:55 < uniqanomaly_> culture & environment ;P 11:57 -!- gleapsite [~Gleapsite@174.sub-75-192-24.myvzw.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:59 < Lukas__> :( 11:59 < uniqanomaly_> sad it is 12:03 < Lukas__> what is the size and fame of New York good for if nothing new goes on here? 12:04 < uniqanomaly_> for exploiting work force (->http://venturebeat.com/2010/12/22/google-new-york-office/) 12:05 < uniqanomaly_> :P 12:05 < uniqanomaly_> in general it have something to do with local mindset I guess 12:06 < uniqanomaly_> so much for free will 12:06 < uniqanomaly_> ;) 12:09 < Lukas__> I suppose .... 12:09 < Lukas__> hrm, that will have to change 12:09 <@kanzure> http://stop.zona-m.net/2011/01/the-open-data-open-society-report-2/ 12:09 < uniqanomaly_> Lukas__ not really 12:09 <@kanzure> "Scientists introduce DNA directly into the cell nucleus using protein nanodisks" http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-01/uadb-ngt011111.php 12:10 < uniqanomaly_> inertia, perhaps you've heard about it in context of physics 12:10 < uniqanomaly_> it applies to everything 12:10 <@kanzure> better: http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/01/dna-directly-put-into-cell-nucleus.html 12:10 <@kanzure> Esther Vázquez, Rafael Cubarsi, Ugutz Unzueta, Mónica Roldán, Joan Domingo-Espín, Neus Ferrer-Miralles, Antonio Villaverde. Internalization and kinetics of nuclear migration of protein-only, arginine-rich nanoparticles. Biomaterials, 2010; 31 (35): 9333 DOI: 10.1016/j.biomaterials.2010.08.065 12:10 < uniqanomaly_> from personality, local mindsets, law to global economy 12:10 <@kanzure> abstract: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TWB-5137KBD-3&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2010&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=011a92d4bdc2b84790e43afa7841d050&searchtype=a 12:10 <@kanzure> " 12:10 <@kanzure> Internalization and kinetics of nuclear migration of protein-only, arginine-rich nanoparticles 12:11 <@kanzure> hrm where's my paperbot 12:11 < Lukas__> thanks kanzure 12:12 < Lukas__> to be honest uniqanomaly, I am not sure if I want to move all the way out there, but if that is where moves are being made ... 12:13 <@kanzure> Lukas__: i haven't moved to the bay area and things are going fine for me 12:13 <@kanzure> though i do travel often, but i imagine i'd be traveling anyway 12:16 < Lukas__> That's probably how I'm going to turn out as well 12:16 < Grin> I think I'm off to go do some traveling myself. 12:17 < Lukas__> :D 12:18 < Grin> Too long have I left the depths of my subconcious unplumbed. 12:22 -!- RadiVis [~quassel@pD9F88F95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:23 < Lukas__> Kanzure, if you find anything about immune responses and new types of gene therapy, give me a heads up (please) 12:26 -!- thesnark [83b713b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.183.19.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:26 < thesnark> hey kanzure 12:30 -!- gleapsite1 [~Gleapsite@198.sub-75-192-104.myvzw.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:31 < Grin> A pleasure making acquaintances, fare thee well. 12:32 -!- Grin [~Grin@pool-71-161-59-41.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 12:33 -!- gleapsite [~Gleapsite@174.sub-75-192-24.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36 < Lukas__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKqfUPcaiM0 12:36 < Lukas__> D: 12:37 < Lukas__> This is like deepblue part II 12:41 < archels> GOFAI 12:43 < gleapsite1> watson needs to meet eliza and have turing capable babies. 12:43 -!- gleapsite1 is now known as gleapsite 12:44 * uniqanomaly_ - joke detected 12:50 -!- thesnark is now known as thesnark|busy 12:54 <@kanzure> hi thesnark|busy 13:19 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:55 -!- thesnark|busy [83b713b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.183.19.182] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:32 -!- strages [~809e4e63@dev.throwthemind.com] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 14:53 -!- klafka1 [~textual@cpe-74-74-152-155.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:54 <@kanzure> what where'd this come from? http://kprize.wordpress.com/prize-specifications/ 14:55 <@kanzure> oh it's the same text 15:00 < kanzure2> though there is a FAQ.. 15:09 -!- RadiVis [~quassel@pD9F88F95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:29 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-24-23-119-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30 -!- fenn [~fenn@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:30 < kanzure2> howdy fenn 15:30 < kanzure2> two things: 15:30 < kanzure2> 1) how would you use the $80k from the reprap grand prize? 15:30 < fenn> bounties 15:30 < kanzure2> humanity+ agrees in general 15:31 < kanzure2> 2) brainport + eye tracking i/o for lucid dreamers? 15:31 < fenn> brainport is overkill 15:31 < fenn> unless you mean EEG 15:31 < kanzure2> tongue tactile display thingy 15:31 < fenn> also, i dont really see the point. do people even think logically during lucid dreams? 15:31 < kanzure2> REM corresponds to eye gaze in dreams but i have serious doubts about using trained EEG stuff.. i mean it's hard enough while you're awake.. 15:32 < kanzure2> it's entertaining at least. *shrug* 15:33 < kanzure2> i doubt there's any particular advantage 15:33 < kanzure2> but if you're cursed with lucidity in your dreams then you might as well take advantage 15:33 < fenn> at most it'd be useful for a sort of bookmark or "ok i just slayed the dragon, now what" and you can then look at the rest of the eeg data with a bit more understanding 15:33 < kanzure2> if tongue tactile displays work in your dreams you could do 3D virtual environments on your computer 15:34 < fenn> but you're already doing 3d virtual environments in your head 15:36 < kanzure2> yes but not really primed with any outside stimulus [during the dreaming] 15:37 < kanzure2> or, if it is primed by outside stimulus, it's mostly just sounds in your house or whatever, not particularly high throughput data transfer 15:37 < kanzure2> it's just entertaining 15:38 < kanzure2> anyway, back to the gada prize stuff, i can change things up and turn it into bounties or even directly hired work for specific projects 15:39 < kanzure2> reprappers get things done v. cheap 15:40 < kanzure2> maybe i should make a massive todo list and just set price tags for what i think it should cost? 15:41 < Utopiah> sounds hard and tedious 15:41 < kanzure2> "hard and tedious" is my middle name 15:41 < kanzure2> hrm wait. 15:41 < archels> ... 15:41 < Utopiah> sounded naughty 15:44 -!- kanzure is now known as kanzure_ 15:45 -!- kanzure2 is now known as kanzure 15:47 < kanzure> Utopiah: any alternatives? 15:53 < kanzure> google summer of code is relevant i guess 15:56 < kanzure> i wonder why ben hasn't done this for opencog? i guess he has undergrad slave labor 15:57 < jebba> kanzure what's this $80k you're talking about anyway? Are the gada folks upping the amount and allowing you to redo the rules (!)? 15:59 < kanzure> 1) i am the gada folks 15:59 < kanzure> 2) $20k was raised but originally the stink back in jan. 2010 was about the $80k "grand prize" 16:00 < kanzure> in reality it was the interim prize ($20k) that was funded 16:00 < kanzure> http://gadaprize.org/ has deets 16:01 < kanzure> buuut the whole idea of a prize here is just a little weird 16:01 < fenn> where is the money assumed to be coming from anyway? 16:01 < kanzure> because it breeds secrecy in an otherwise open source project 16:01 < kanzure> kartik gada is just some financial 16:01 < kanzure> oops 16:01 < kanzure> fenn: kartik gada's buddies 16:01 < fenn> so why isn't it funded yet? 16:01 < kanzure> so some of it rests on making kartik happy :P 16:01 < kanzure> dunno. 16:02 < fenn> well, that's stupid. 16:02 < jrayhawk> that's slightly horrifying 16:02 < kanzure> jebba: so, i'm thinking that this money ca be used more efficiently 16:02 < kanzure> *can be used 16:02 < kanzure> there's a long list of things that need to get done that money would accelerate 16:02 < Lukas__> yup 16:03 < kanzure> the main philanthropy tagline that gadaprize.org has is that the money goes directly to the reprappers or whatever (no management overhead fees) 16:03 < kanzure> i feel that, more importantly, it's the fact that the target project is open source 16:06 < kanzure> so saying $2500 to make a better plastruder isn't too much of a stretch in my opinion 16:06 < jebba> ya, more like microfinancing projects than some superprize would likely serve everyone better 16:06 < kanzure> SUPERPRIZE 16:06 < kanzure> the Kartik M. Gada Humanitarian Innovation Prize in Personal Manufacturing for RepRap 16:06 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:06 < jebba> SUPERSIZEPRIZE 16:07 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:07 < Lukas__> Someone should start selling something 16:07 < fenn> how about your mom 16:07 < kanzure> 15:03 < fenn> he survives on a diet solely consisting of humans 16:07 < Lukas__> D: 16:08 < kanzure> jebba: on the other hand, i have this weird thing "against" kickstarter 16:08 < kanzure> lasersaur raised $20k on kickstarter for an open source laser cutter 16:08 < kanzure> then went and had a giant party 16:08 < kanzure> kickstarter is great and all though :) and donations to non-profits are usually crowdsourced (especially cancer orgs) 16:08 < jebba> there's a guy locally here that is developing a 32bit board, but wants to make it some sort of CC "not for commercial use" or somesuch, but is open to having it gplv3 or CC-truly-open for pay. As an example. 16:09 < kanzure> eh, open source hardware licensing is still a clusterfuck 16:09 < kanzure> copyright doesn't necessarily do what you want it to do here. 16:09 < fenn> i dont really get the whole 'non commercial thing' 16:09 < gleapsite> kanzure: not everyone on kickstarter is a non-profit. alot of them are LLCs 16:09 < kanzure> gleapsite: really? kickstarter says they are anti-business 16:10 -!- timschmidt [~timschmid@h96-60-31-214.prrymi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10 < fenn> nobody's going to bother selling your open source thingy until there's a proven market for it, in which case you should already have a large market share 16:11 < fenn> but, said people would never have bought your thingy unless it was open source in the first place, so either you get 1) a fair sized amount of sales or 2) nothing 16:12 < fenn> it's the classic fairness bias 16:12 < gleapsite> lemme find you an example kanzure, but I think what they mean when they say anti-business is more anti-publishing/venture capital firms 16:12 < kanzure> kickstarter is how people are doing market testing 16:12 < kanzure> gleapsite: i just mean from looking at their terms on the 'create a project page' 16:13 < gleapsite> here's an example of an LLC funded via kickstarter: http://www.mysterybrewingco.com/tag/kickstarter/ http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mysterybrewing/mystery-brewing-company 16:14 < fenn> another one http://www.theglif.com/ 16:14 < gleapsite> yeah. 16:15 < kanzure> anyway, it just seems like scraping the bottom of the barrel for funding 16:15 < gleapsite> also, just saw that pioneerone episode 2 is out 16:15 < kanzure> since humanity+ is a non-profit i can just set up a merchant account and do something similar anyway 16:15 < kanzure> but traditionally the org has got large 5-digit-or-more donations from philanthropists 16:15 < kanzure> i have no idea *why* but it's happened. 16:16 < gleapsite> this is something you operate? 16:16 < kanzure> gleapsite: i'm a director of r&d for http://humanityplus.org/ 16:16 < kanzure> a non-profit for transhumanism/human enhancement tech 16:16 < gleapsite> awesome 16:16 < kanzure> fuck yeah! 16:16 < gleapsite> I started my first non-profit about this time last year 16:17 < gleapsite> sadly its not H+related 16:18 < kanzure> so, i need to figure out how to manage money like this for open source projects 16:19 < kanzure> i'm not a big fan of grant proposal requests because they tend to be in too many directions 16:19 < kanzure> "directed philanthropy" is neat in concept (but all too often (like with the myelin repair foundation) it's all about gaming the intellectual property system and proprietary info) 16:20 < gleapsite> crowdsourcing venture capital is a fairly new funding model 16:20 < QuantumG> kiva ftw 16:20 < kanzure> gleapsite: not really.. cancer orgs raise hundreds of millions every year 16:20 < kanzure> by crowdsourcing. 16:20 < gleapsite> venture capital is a bit different than donations 16:21 < gleapsite> which have always been crowdsourced 16:21 < kanzure> huh? kickstarter projects don't give you equity 16:21 < gleapsite> no. but you're free to make a profit from the funds so long as you meet the terms for the donations 16:22 < QuantumG> indeed. Kickstarter is just "promise to give me money if enough people also promise and I'll give you some rewards" 16:24 < kanzure> speaking of which, i could really use some more volunteers for nanoengineer 16:24 < kanzure> as a last resort i can start paying someone to be an active maintainer or something 16:24 < kanzure> i'm clearly not performing as well as i should be 16:24 < kanzure> certainly not at the original nanorex salaries :P 16:25 < gleapsite> is it OSS? 16:25 < kanzure> uh hell yes? 16:26 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer 16:26 < kanzure> image gallery: http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50 16:26 < kanzure> it's open-source nanotech/molecular machine CAD 16:26 < gleapsite> I see python 16:26 < gleapsite> what modules are you using? 16:26 < kanzure> written mostly in python, yeah 16:26 < kanzure> oh man, tons of crap 16:26 < kanzure> a lot of the code is python 2.3 plus minor fixes 16:27 < gleapsite> numpy, scipy 16:27 < kanzure> qt4 16:27 < kanzure> gromacs 16:27 < gleapsite> My full time job is developing 3d electromagnetic modeling/simulation systems in python 16:27 < kanzure> do you work for enthought 16:28 < kanzure> opengl 16:28 < gleapsite> no. 16:28 < gleapsite> I contract to the MDA 16:28 < gleapsite> =(missile defense agency) 16:28 < kanzure> i don't recall seeing numpy in the ne-1 sources, but i'd be surprised if the answer is no 16:29 < Lukas__> O_O 16:29 -!- alystair [Alystair@76.68.120.100] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:30 < gleapsite> most of my knowledge revolves around digital signal processing. chemistry (and by association nanotech) is a dark black magic to me 16:30 -!- timschmidt [~tim@h96-60-31-214.prrymi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:30 < kanzure> hi timschmidt 16:30 < timschmidt> howdy 16:30 < kanzure> gleapsite: there's a few books/papers i can point you at 16:30 < kanzure> http://rfreitas.com/ for papers 16:31 < kanzure> hrm.. when i finish my uploading this will work: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/nanotech/ but right now it's not up yet :( 16:31 < timschmidt> I've just decided (in another conversation) that Alestair Crowley gave the members of Lead Zeppelin +8 tight jeans of charisma... thought I'd share. 16:31 < kanzure> timschmidt: so, i'm thinking about ditching the grand reprap prize in exchange for just using the money to directly pay for the desired developments 16:31 < timschmidt> hmmm 16:31 < timschmidt> tempting 16:31 -!- klafka1 [~textual@cpe-74-74-152-155.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:31 < jrayhawk> 403 forbidden 16:32 < kanzure> jrayhawk: because it's not there yet 16:32 < jrayhawk> bah 16:32 < kanzure> that's rsync's fault 16:32 < kanzure> actually, all of the subdirectories of papers/ should be accessible 16:32 < jrayhawk> oh, you're doing -a? 16:32 < kanzure> but i seem to have to manually chmod +x each of them 16:33 < kanzure> jrayhawk: yes 16:33 < timschmidt> so the hard part in this might be deciding what developments are desired 16:33 < jrayhawk> weirdo 16:33 < timschmidt> specifically 16:33 < kanzure> i don't want random grants and to have to approve them, 16:33 < kanzure> i'd like a reprap roadmap and say "we're going in this direction, make it do XYZ here's $10k" 16:33 < timschmidt> heh 16:33 < timschmidt> I'd love that too 16:33 < kanzure> or "here's $2k for an skdb/reprap demo" 16:33 < timschmidt> but Adrian will not 16:34 < kanzure> why not? 16:34 < kanzure> he's not getting this money anyway 16:34 < kanzure> adrian is involved in the gada prize, as a judge and advisor, so he's in the loop 16:34 < timschmidt> Because he has some romantic theory about development being some sort of unguided evolution 16:34 < kanzure> that's fine.. but not when money is involved 16:34 < timschmidt> agreed 16:34 < kanzure> unless you have some development you want to convince me to pay for, in which case i'll listen 16:35 < kanzure> i feel a little dirty for suggesting skdb-related stuff should be involved if the $80k doesn't go towards a grand prize 16:35 < jrayhawk> Most likely having an 'official' fund would actually be socially disruptive anyway. 16:35 < timschmidt> I do... not $80k worth, and others should have their say as well 16:35 < kanzure> but on the other hand, hardware packages are really needed 16:35 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what? socially disruptive in a bad way? 16:35 < kanzure> reprap research foundation could have their own fund if they want but i don't think they want to? 16:35 < kanzure> or what's up with that anyway 16:36 < jrayhawk> Yeah, Debian tried it for a while and wound up alienating a surprising number of developers. 16:36 < timschmidt> RRRF is gone 16:36 < kanzure> what was debian funding? 16:36 < kanzure> do they still pay for traveling to conferences? 16:36 < kanzure> what a waste of pay.. :P 16:37 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=dunc+tank 16:37 < kanzure> http://ianmurdock.com/debian/dunc-tank-debian-and-leadership/ 16:38 < kanzure> i don't really see what the specific problem was 16:40 < timschmidt> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HumMyN0Q8Gc 16:40 < jrayhawk> There are a lot of different motivations behind what DDs do; the introduction of money made the atmosphere much more political. 16:40 < timschmidt> money errodes trust 16:41 < kanzure> well, prizes breed secrecy 16:41 < kanzure> or, prize money specifically 16:41 < timschmidt> agreed 16:42 < gleapsite> In his book remix lessig proposed that there are two economies: the one that trades on capital (money for goods) and one that trades on karma (how you associate w/ your friends/family) He was looking at how to create a hybrid of the two 16:42 < jrayhawk> The idea is to keep your prizes project-unofficial so project managers don't wind up being viewed as playing favorites. 16:42 < timschmidt> right 16:42 < timschmidt> that seems a good idea 16:42 < kanzure> jrayhawk: we're talking about getting rid of the prize faccade 16:43 < kanzure> and replacing it with "here's $2500 to build a super reprap" 16:43 < kanzure> er, "and package it and make it work" 16:43 < timschmidt> I would gladly build a SLS reprap for $2500 :D 16:43 < jrayhawk> Yeah, but even your current level of collusion is a little socially dangerous; it's really not a good idea to attack adrian for wanting to stay neutral. 16:44 < kanzure> attack? 16:44 < jrayhawk> 16:34 < timschmidt> Because he has some romantic theory about development being some sort of unguided evolution 16:44 < timschmidt> jrayhawk: I didn't mean to attack him, only you point out that he might not be willing to create a roadmap 16:44 < timschmidt> with specific goals 16:44 < timschmidt> it's not his type of thing 16:44 < jrayhawk> Okay, well, if his theory is romantic, it is, at least, I think, also rational by coincidence. 16:45 -!- klafka1 [~textual@cpe-74-74-152-155.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:45 < kanzure> i think it's fine that he doesn't have specific goals 16:46 < timschmidt> I don't think it's particularly rational to say that things will 'just happen' in the way that's best. Software development (which RepRap _is_) takes planning. 16:46 < timschmidt> but we're off topic at this point 16:46 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-24-23-119-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:46 < kanzure> timschmidt: jrayhawk is trying to point out some social history from debian that is largely relevant 16:46 < timschmidt> certainly 16:46 < kanzure> k 16:46 < timschmidt> and I agree wholeheartedly with that 16:47 < timschmidt> an outsider should administer the funds 16:47 < kanzure> aww i'm an outsider :( 16:47 < timschmidt> :P 16:47 < jrayhawk> ha ha ha 16:47 < kanzure> stop laughing at my expense! i have money, i'm important!! 16:47 < timschmidt> :) 16:48 < timschmidt> the hard part, as I mentioned earlier, will be coming to a consensus on a list of worthwhile goals 16:48 < timschmidt> perhaps you can get Adrian's sign-off to use your own judgement? 16:48 < jrayhawk> That would be wise on his part. 16:49 < kanzure> heh if this works i'm totally going to commission a study on the theory of replication 16:49 < kanzure> and force adrian to co-author with freitas and hod lipson for once 16:50 < kanzure> (not really- that's probably not needed) 16:50 < timschmidt> what about the theory are you interested in finding out 16:50 < timschmidt> ? 16:50 < kanzure> timschmidt: i'm suggesting adrian's theoretical framework for self-replication is less developed than freitas' theoretical analysis in KSRM and AASM 16:50 < kanzure> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ 16:50 < kanzure> http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/5.6.htm 16:51 < kanzure> i'm primarily mentioning this since adrian sees himself as a scholar, btw 16:51 < kanzure> so scholarly things probably intrigue him. 16:51 < timschmidt> indeed 16:52 < kanzure> so, from the perspective of humanity+, stuff that would be nice to fund related to reprap 16:52 < kanzure> is making jordan miller's tissue printing stuff more open source 16:52 < kanzure> skdb 16:52 < kanzure> cheaper BOMs 16:52 < kanzure> better support for multiple materials 16:53 < kanzure> openscad/lolcad/brlcad-related stuff 16:53 < timschmidt> printable lab equipment? 16:53 < kanzure> yep 16:53 < kanzure> but i dunno if that qualifies as being directly under the reprap umbrella *shrug* 16:53 < timschmidt> me either 16:53 < timschmidt> meh 16:53 < QuantumG> printable pets 16:54 < kanzure> diybio equipment that would be nice to build: 16:54 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/diybio-equipment.yaml 16:54 < kanzure> various transhuman tech projects: 16:54 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v3.txt 16:54 < timschmidt> good to know 16:54 < timschmidt> I may work on some of this stuff just for fun 16:54 < timschmidt> finding something to design is the hardest part 16:54 < kanzure> orly 16:54 < timschmidt> rly 16:55 < kanzure> i think a lot of this stuff is already out there on lots of random DIY sites 16:55 < kanzure> so packaging is a big priority 16:55 < gleapsite> dude. I can funnel you tons of ideas for things to design 16:55 < kanzure> or fixing the crap out there 16:55 < timschmidt> gleapsite: timschmidt at gmail dot com 16:56 < kanzure> typical fablab equipment: 16:56 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/tree/doc/BOMs/comparison/fablab.yaml 16:56 < timschmidt> I picked up a 1/6 horse AC motor today for $2 16:56 < timschmidt> I'll need something to use it with 16:56 < kanzure> oops i meant 16:56 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/comparison/fablab.yaml 16:56 < kanzure> also techshop stuff: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/comparison/techshop.yaml 16:57 < timschmidt> I'll start dumping some of this into the reprap wiki tonight 16:57 < kanzure> why 16:57 < kanzure> isn't that a step backwards :P 16:57 < timschmidt> A bit... but it's a nice temporary scratch space 16:59 < Lukas__> Are any of the diytranshuman projects active? 16:59 < kanzure> presently no 16:59 < kanzure> humanity+ might sponsor biocurious 17:00 < kanzure> especially if joe gets rid of tito and eri 17:00 < Lukas__> Explain please? 17:00 < kanzure> does someone else want to explain tito/eri for me 17:00 < timschmidt> I have no idea 17:01 < Lukas__> Damn are they that bad? 17:01 < kanzure> they seem to more be into this stuff to attach their names to so they get more publicity 17:02 < kanzure> they are like a social plague or something 17:02 < Lukas__> oh, those types 17:02 < timschmidt> I just want my damn singularity 17:02 < Lukas__> I hope humanity+ sponsors biocurious 17:02 < kanzure> the other obvious thing to do is for me to do a hackerspace for transhuman tech 17:03 < kanzure> but i'd need money to pay rent 17:03 < timschmidt> right 17:03 < Lukas__> how much money are you talking about? 17:03 < timschmidt> rent for a decent size building is likely to run $1000 / month 17:03 < kanzure> well, some sort of steady stream of money so that rent can be paid monthly for enough time to be relevant 17:03 < kanzure> i.e. 3mo of rent (what biocurious raised?) is totally worthless 17:04 < gleapsite> we're running hack.rva on 20 members paying 30$/mo. supplemented w/ tuition for classes we teach 17:04 < kanzure> yeah i'm not interested in praying that i pick a location with 20 transhumanists who "just so happen" to be lifetime members 17:04 < kanzure> doesn't seem like a good strategy :( 17:04 < Lukas__> Yea, that'd be terrible 17:04 < Lukas__> Market approach? 17:05 < timschmidt> kanzure: you need an endowment 17:05 < timschmidt> :) 17:05 < kanzure> timschmidt: i have one somewhere but apparently i'm not old enough? 17:06 < timschmidt> hmmm 17:06 < Lukas__> Shouldn't your activity in the community count for something? 17:06 < timschmidt> if you could get 4% interest, on $80k, that's $3200 17:06 < timschmidt> yearly 17:06 -!- phreedom [~quassel@109.254.17.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:06 < timschmidt> I would almost rather see that set up ($3000 / year paid reprap development) 17:07 < QuantumG> so long as it is adequately directed, sure 17:07 < timschmidt> then if people want to add to the endowment, they can 17:07 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:07 < QuantumG> if all they're going to do is more of the same then what's the point 17:07 < QuantumG> and that's what the reprap community seems to be doing for the most part 17:08 < kanzure> so, my original idea back in 2009 was to structure this as a co-op 17:08 < timschmidt> most of the current effort has been toward lowered BOM (which has been done stunningly well), and replication 17:08 < kanzure> so that the co-op owns the tools and equipment, which get put somewhere 17:08 < kanzure> this way, you don't need an absolute location, just where-ever co-op members happen to be 17:08 < kanzure> co-op members would 'rent' from the co-op to use equipment in their business or whatever, 17:08 < QuantumG> printing PCBs is a great idea.. but no machine has been built.. not even attempts as far as I'm aware 17:09 < kanzure> and that rent would be used to sustain some central location 17:09 < kanzure> this could also work through a non-profit i suppose 17:09 < timschmidt> kanzure: that sounds possible 17:10 < kanzure> a fleet of 50 laser cutters bringing in $1/min for 200 min/mo is $10k/mo which definitely covers a hackerspace's expenses ;) 17:10 < kanzure> (that's without factoring out local overhead from each rented laser cutter) 17:11 < Lukas__> what does the initial investment look like? 17:11 < timschmidt> can you buy 50 laser cutters for $80k? 17:11 < kanzure> based on the price i paid for my last one.. yes 17:11 < timschmidt> huh 17:12 < kanzure> it's a little old school though :) 17:12 < timschmidt> I've seen small 12" square 40W units on ebay for $700ish 17:12 < timschmidt> plus shipping 17:12 < kanzure> haha that's way overpriced 17:12 < kanzure> unless it was built.. yesterday 17:14 < timschmidt> they were new 17:15 < fenn> or you could have one laser cutter running constantly for the same amount 17:16 < kanzure> 200 min/mo ea. was a lower estimate because i have no idea what the market demand is for laz0rs 17:16 < kanzure> laz0rz 17:16 < fenn> depends on the local hype field 17:16 < kanzure> i've had one or two people pay to use my cutter 17:16 < fenn> what did they make? 17:17 < kanzure> (although i'm doing no word of mouth or advertizing) 17:17 < kanzure> perforated cardboard advertisements 17:17 < fenn> yeah i actually forgot you had one 17:17 < kanzure> cabinet wood designs 17:18 < gleapsite> so take a magnetic sheet printed w/ robot eyes and nobs and dials and laser cut them out. then sell it so people can put them on their home appliances to turn everything into robots. 17:18 < Lukas__> XD 17:18 < Lukas__> Market solution ftw 17:25 < Lukas__> I had an idea 17:25 < Lukas__> since I make youtube videos, I figured I can start advertising for the respective hackerspaces and their latest projects 17:26 < Lukas__> to build some more internet support for what's going on 17:26 < Lukas__> it's the best I can do, seeing as how I am a poor college student 17:29 < kanzure> fenn: renting a fleet of laser cutters out doesn't trigger your anti-rent-seeking gland in your brain? 17:30 < fenn> huh 17:30 < fenn> i just dont think it's realistic because not that many people want to use laser cutters 17:31 < fenn> at least, not pay for them per minute 17:31 < kanzure> oh, that's actually how most laser shops do it 17:31 < fenn> then you're competing with ponoko or whoever 17:32 < kanzure> ponoko isn't particularly cheap :P 17:39 < fenn> i was surprised how cheap shapeways is 17:54 -!- augur [~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55 -!- klafka1 [~textual@cpe-74-74-152-155.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:05 -!- Lukas__ [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:10 -!- gleapsite [~Gleapsite@198.sub-75-192-104.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16 -!- augur [~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:18 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-24-23-119-149.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22 -!- uniqanomaly__ [~ua@dynamic-87-105-21-198.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:23 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@78.9.72.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:30 -!- niftyzero1 [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:32 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:13 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-98-239-176-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:21 -!- uniqanomaly__ [~ua@dynamic-87-105-21-198.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@c-98-239-176-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39 -!- CryptoQuick [~CryptoQui@c-174-51-232-237.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: CryptoQuick] 19:50 -!- CryptoQuick [~CryptoQui@c-174-51-232-237.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:51 < CryptoQuick> so, joshcryer, finally loaded up the IRC again :) 19:53 < kanzure> hi CryptoQuick 19:54 < CryptoQuick> Hi, kanzure! I subscribe to the Open Manufacturing list, so I see your messages... often :) 20:04 < kanzure> sorry about that 20:04 < kanzure> om is getting kind of slow lately 20:04 < CryptoQuick> hey, it's all good. hey, RepRap seems to be making some progress these days 20:12 -!- thesnark [~michael@cblmdm24-53-167-49.buckeyecom.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:14 < kanzure> hi thesnark 20:14 < thesnark> hey kanzure 20:16 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-87-105-21-108.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:19 < CryptoQuick> so, kanzure, what are you up to these days? and why you greeting everybody? lonely? :) 20:19 < kanzure> i don't know what i'm up to please tell the internet to stop sending me email 20:20 * kanzure is away doing stuff at the moment 20:23 * thesnark knows that feeling 20:29 < kanzure> but you can read logs from today 20:29 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-14.log 20:50 < alystair> would be cool if we could see tomorrow's logs :p 21:04 -!- thesnark [~michael@cblmdm24-53-167-49.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06 < CryptoQuick> :) 21:16 -!- klafka1 [~textual@cpe-74-74-152-155.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:54 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-75-194.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:55 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 21:55 < CryptoQuick> good hi 21:56 < CryptoQuick> off to make an h plus pizza, bbiab 22:06 -!- niftyzero1 [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17 -!- niftyzero1 [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:26 -!- Utopiah [~libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:27 -!- Utopiah [~libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:38 < joshcryer> wtf hey CryptoQuick 22:40 * jebba printed (personal) first 3d object. wrench.gcode :) 22:43 < joshcryer> QuantumG, did fucking congress just force NASA to build Falcon XX? http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=67657ee7-1953-4b62-a78c-ae1d4a9e1a29 22:43 < joshcryer> Saw your tweet. 22:43 < joshcryer> (well, retweet of Jeff Foust's tweet) 22:44 < joshcryer> Hilarious sidenote: NASA choses Falcon XX, Congress whines that it kills jobs. Lulz continue. 22:47 * joshcryer reads NASA's prelim report to see if it even mentions Falcon XX 22:47 < JayDugger> joshcryer, I think you've got a rare case of a government agency making an honest, good-faith, and accurate project estimate. 22:48 < JayDugger> It doesn't. 22:48 < JayDugger> Congratulations, jebba! 22:49 < joshcryer> JayDugger, I think it's pretty crazy that they'd dare tell Congress that they can't afford the thing, haha. Wow. 22:49 < JayDugger> Unusual, but perhaps it exemplifies brinksmanship. 22:49 < joshcryer> jebba, can we please see pics? 22:50 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@203.sub-174-252-220.myvzw.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:51 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@203.sub-174-252-220.myvzw.com] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 22:51 -!- loopa [~loopa@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:52 < loopa> I'm trying to prepare an aluminum hydroxide gel from aluminum hydroxide powder. The paper I'm looking at calls for "... .. the aluminum hydroxide gel was the alpha-modification of [Willstatter, Kraut and Erbacher]". Does anyone have any suggestions on how to create this gel? 22:52 < JayDugger> I don't, loopa. 22:55 < joshcryer> Afraid not loopa, maybe try #chemistry ? 22:56 < jebba> joshcryer: http://www.jebbaville.org/photos/2011/shapercube/f1rstprint/1024x768/ JayDugger thx 22:57 < jebba> no masterpiece, but it workz 22:57 < joshcryer> jebba, thank you! 22:57 < joshcryer> It looks amazing! 22:57 < joshcryer> Oh man that is prototyper porn. 22:58 < jebba> lol 22:58 < jebba> if you're that excited, the parent directory has some nice jams! ;) 22:58 < jebba> err, well, up two and take a left 22:58 < joshcryer> I hope you have a lot of bandwidth... ;) 22:59 < jebba> oh, plenty enough for that image. 22:59 < joshcryer> Nice camera, too. 22:59 < joshcryer> (NIKON D3000) 22:59 < jebba> thx nikon 22:59 < jebba> i had a d70 once upon a time... 23:00 < joshcryer> jebba, nice extrusion, could use some work, but I'm impressed. 23:01 < joshcryer> Thanks so much for sharing those. 23:02 < jebba> I tried to print another one asap after that one, but it just clogged up, which is quite a task to clean out. In this case, it's jammed in the extruder. 23:02 < joshcryer> Do you find the metal encasing useful or is it just for looks? 23:02 < jebba> I'm open to any suggestions you have, if you see things that are obvious to you (i've never even seen a 3d printer besides my own). 23:02 < joshcryer> I mean I can possibly imagine heating problems and such. 23:03 < CryptoQuick> sup joshcryer :) 23:03 < CryptoQuick> pizza was delicious 23:03 < joshcryer> jebba, I think I have more questions than suggestions, to be honest. I haven't made a RepRap yet. :/ 23:03 < CryptoQuick> nice prototyper porn 23:04 < jebba> Well, it makes the whole thing seriously solid. I have a Huxley I just started piecing together and they are in pretty different leagues. The shapercube is way more solid. But it is also sometimes hard to work inside the case. And its a hella lot of parts. So unjamming the extruder is quite more work that perhaps it could be. 23:04 < joshcryer> Hey CryptoQuick 23:04 < CryptoQuick> :) 23:04 < jebba> ah joshcryer, fire away, i'll answer what i can, but i'm new at this too. 23:05 < joshcryer> jebba, is that a power supply inside the back of the ShaperCube? 23:05 < jebba> thx CryptoQuick 23:05 < jebba> joshcryer: ya, ATX 23:05 < joshcryer> Nice. :D 23:06 < jebba> Note, this is Shapercube 1.0, which was released like April 2010. I just started putting it together in December (sat there for quite awhile over the summer). They have a shapercube 2.0 out now. 23:06 < joshcryer> jebba, arduino's for the internal logic? They look like arduinos but I dunno. 23:06 < jebba> Ya, megas 23:06 < jebba> This is some older/earlier mendel electronics AFAIK 23:06 < joshcryer> OOH, I thought this was your own prototyper that you named shapercube, hehe 23:06 < keen_101> jebba, it looks very nice. I like the case. 23:07 < jebba> joshcryer: oh, by no means at all. I thought you seemed mighty impressed. I'm a mere assemble kiddie. ;) 23:07 < joshcryer> jebba, I still like it, thought I admit I am less impressed, I will say that I am still impressed, just not as much. ;D 23:08 < jebba> http://www.shapercube.com http://wiki.shapercube.com are the folks that made the kit. The kit, however, was about as absolutely disassembled as possible with occassional docs...so there is still quite a bit to putting the scuker together ;) 23:08 < joshcryer> It still appears to take a lot of skill to put this thing together. 23:08 < JayDugger> jebba, do you think the shapercube better than your huxley? 23:08 < joshcryer> Yeah :D 23:08 < CryptoQuick> lawdy, that shapercube is pretty sweet 23:09 < JayDugger> Yeah, and they have a matching price tag. :) 23:09 < joshcryer> Price tag is a bit steep for me. 23:09 < CryptoQuick> paul krugman sez the euro is failing 23:10 < jebba> JayDugger: i just started on the huxley recently so it hasnt printed anything. So I can't compare in terms of what i like better. The shapercube i know at least can print (though i may change the extruder). The huxley is waaaaaaaaaaaaay less parts and far less to assemble. 23:10 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, it's $1300. 23:10 < JayDugger> jebba, did you get the Huxley from a kit? 23:10 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: I can do a google :V 23:10 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, I told marsbot to convert for me. ;P 23:11 < jebba> http://techzonecom.com/detail.php?pr_id=48 <-- that's the Huxley I got. I can certainly say it was nicely packaged and organized. Came in a box only the size of a loaf of bread or so! 23:11 < JayDugger> I like that price much better. 23:11 < joshcryer> JayDugger, are Huxley print parts printed with a RepRap? 23:12 < jebba> You could probably put together like 5 huxleys in the time of a shapercube. But the shapercube is ridiculously more solid. 23:12 < joshcryer> JayDugger, yes I think that you can get a microitx board for the same cost as an arduino... 23:12 < jebba> joshcryer: the huxley printed parts from techzone looked like they were printed from a mendel-like printer. 23:12 < joshcryer> jebba, ahh, yes I should have asked you. That is very nice if so! 23:13 < jebba> i was suprised how light all the parts are. But solid, reasonably. 23:13 < JayDugger> Jebba, have you found the sturdiness of the Shapercube worth the extra money? 23:13 < CryptoQuick> also, shapercube seems to have subtractive as well as additive prototyping :V 23:14 < JayDugger> Oh? 23:14 < joshcryer> jebba, looking at your Huxly pics now. 23:14 < jebba> I'd suggest a Mendel Huxley or a Mendel Prusa for the first time, perhaps. 23:15 < joshcryer> Wooden gears? 23:15 < CryptoQuick> oh wait, CNC doesn't automatically mean milling :T 23:15 < jebba> The shapercube2 is supposed to have dual extruders RSN. It's definitely a step up in complexity from huxley/prusa. 23:16 < jebba> CryptoQuick: i do have a contraptor that just arrived this week too :) 23:16 < jebba> That's an open CNC machine you use with a dremel-like tool. 23:16 < CryptoQuick> there's so much awesome developments in this field besides reprap, I didn't even know 23:17 < jebba> joshcryer: ya, those are wooden gears. They look so cool. I'll get a better pic of them next time i take fotos 23:17 < jebba> thingiverse is getting a bit populated now too 23:18 < kanzure> jebba: dunno if i blabbed to you about gitduino.com 23:18 < kanzure> but i've been meaning to make a github+thingiverse site for a while now.. 23:19 < kanzure> also @all, today/tomorrow is the last day to sign up at humanity+ to vote in the board of directors election 23:19 < kanzure> here's the humanity+ newsletter with the candidate statements today: 23:19 < kanzure> http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/692318/f22fe33e4c/282259487/ee40199c20/ 23:19 < joshcryer> Are you telling me to vote for you? 23:19 < CryptoQuick> oh hey, there you are Kanz 23:20 < kanzure> joshcryer: that would be nice of you 23:20 < jebba> http://www.makergear.com http://www.makerbot.com http://www.contraptor.org/ http://ultimachine.com/ http://www.botmill.com/ http://techzonecom.com <--- some useful links for reprappy stuff 23:20 < kanzure> jebba: if you like contraptor you might like http://makerbeam.com/ 23:21 < CryptoQuick> whoa, monthly membership fees 23:21 < jebba> kanzure, oh ya, i'm familiar with makerbeam, although i havent seen any yet 23:21 < jebba> dunno about gitduino unless its some part of skdb ;) 23:21 < kanzure> think of gitduino as a secret front for skdb 23:22 < kanzure> since thingiverse gets the data model all wrong (in terms of packaging/reuse) 23:22 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, omg, I just saw that. 23:23 < joshcryer> Win. (Fail.) 23:23 < joshcryer> I was all going to give kanzure my vote and everything. 23:23 < CryptoQuick> you know how much nissin noodles $5 covers? much less $30... 23:23 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: yeah, i don't know why we have members anyway 23:23 < CryptoQuick> I wouldn't mind if it was, like, a yearly $30, that wouldn't be too bad 23:23 < CryptoQuick> or $50 even 23:23 < CryptoQuick> but monthly commitments scare me 23:24 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure you can pay all at once 23:24 < CryptoQuick> do they give you a discount? 23:24 < joshcryer> kanzure, lol, I like your advocacy in public logs. 23:24 < joshcryer> kanzure deserves to win. 23:24 < kanzure> hm? 23:24 < kanzure> public logs? 23:24 < joshcryer> the logs aren't public? 23:24 < kanzure> oh this channel? 23:24 < kanzure> sure they are 23:24 < joshcryer> right. 23:25 < kanzure> but like 5 people read the logs 23:25 < kanzure> big deal :P 23:25 < CryptoQuick> there are logs? 23:25 < CryptoQuick> should I, like, not say bad things then? 23:25 < joshcryer> "potential board member for h+ 'doesn't know why h+ has paying members" 23:25 < joshcryer> is that not lulzy? :P 23:25 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick gets me. :P 23:26 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: say whatever you want 23:26 < kanzure> joshcryer: oh i know "why" 23:26 < joshcryer> CryptoQuick, I say bad things all the time 23:26 < kanzure> it's because "that's the way things are done" 23:26 < CryptoQuick> dude, if I could get in on joshcryer , I would be <3 23:26 < kanzure> but there's no *reason* especially if they don't even bother to maintain a membership database 23:26 * CryptoQuick mancrushes joshcryer 23:26 < jebba> kanzure, other thing is thingiverse is easily censored. So if making something that fills that roll, make sure it isnt as easy to take out as a website. 23:26 < kanzure> like what possible value does an average transhumanist get from humanity+? 23:26 < joshcryer> 'nohomo' 23:26 < kanzure> jebba: yeah.. git is awesome like that 23:27 < CryptoQuick> I wonder how many penises have been uploaded to thingiverse 23:27 < jebba> kanzure, but then do you have the entire git parts universe? 23:27 < joshcryer> kanzure, I honest to god didn't even *know* that you had to pay, I mean, there was no indication that ther ewas anything to pay *for* 23:27 < CryptoQuick> and how many penis-like objects have been taken off even though their original intention was not to be penis-like 23:27 < joshcryer> at least imminst says "look shit is free but pay us and we'll do cool stuff" 23:27 < kanzure> jebba: what? 23:27 < kanzure> joshcryer: well exactly- what's their to pay for? 23:27 < jebba> well, do you have *all* the parts in your git archive? 23:28 < kanzure> joshcryer: one of the bad ideas floating around by the board members is a "private" social network lol 23:28 < jebba> if so, that's one potentially huge git archive (with history, etc, which git never loses) 23:28 < kanzure> jebba: sorry i was assuming you read package_spec already, um 23:28 < uniqanomaly> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXorPRK41FE 23:28 < kanzure> jebba: the concept is that individual hardware projects should be distributed as an skdb-defined hardware package, which are just git repos 23:28 * jebba goes back to look at it 23:29 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/package_spec.yaml 23:29 < kanzure> jebba: it was written basically.. yesterday 23:29 < kanzure> so it's entirely possible it's not 100% clear 23:30 < kanzure> joshcryer: what 'cool stuff' does imminst do? 23:30 -!- keen_101 [~hulu@76.76.90.91] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 23:30 < JayDugger> What status does Makerbeam have? 23:30 < kanzure> "If you vote for me, I pledge to abolish the membership system." <-- self-defeating? 23:31 < JayDugger> No. 23:31 < jebba> ok, so lets say you have something like a reprap mendel. Would that be one git archive? Or a ton of little git archives? I guess it seems almost like a screw would have it's own git archive, and reprap would have a thousand git archives below it (??) 23:31 < kanzure> JayDugger: sam putnam raised money via kickstarter, produced some physical instances, people were happy 23:31 < fenn> jebba: the latter 23:31 < kanzure> jebba: that's a good question.. to be fair, there is a reprap.git repo floating around here 23:31 < JayDugger> Great. Where's the order form? 23:31 < kanzure> jebba: reprap.skdb or reprap.git or whatever should depend on the 'screw' package 23:32 < fenn> jebba: but there's be one "mendel" archive that makes the end product 23:32 < jebba> ok, so you're talking potentially hundreds of thousands of git archives. 23:32 < joshcryer> kanzure, a general donation doesn't do anything. 23:32 < fenn> one per part family 23:32 < joshcryer> kanzure, except pay for pizza / beer, afaik. 23:32 < fenn> "potentially" is meaningless without a context 23:32 < joshcryer> kanzure, but they have "other stuff" you can donate too. 23:33 < kanzure> JayDugger: you probably have to email Sam Putman 23:33 < QuantumG> hehe, every time there's a new Firefox 4 beta out people go apeshit over the changes 23:33 < QuantumG> I've been using Minefield for so long now that I don't even notice them 23:33 < JayDugger> Yeah...FF's still broken. 23:33 < joshcryer> opera ftw 23:33 < kanzure> if they haven't fixed threading then i don't care 23:33 < kanzure> i mean in firefox, not on screws 23:33 < kanzure> damnit 23:33 < QuantumG> if by fixed you mean made lots worse, then yes, they've fixed it 23:34 < kanzure> don't let the topics cross 23:34 < fenn> oh no we've gotten cross-threaded 23:34 < JayDugger> Semantic sorting is a user err^H^Hducation problem. 23:34 < kanzure> jebba: there are millions of patents, btw 23:34 < kanzure> a giant 50 page document for a 'patent' is basically useless to any advanced civilization 23:34 < fenn> look, drawings! 23:34 < kanzure> WORDS 23:35 < fenn> old timey fonts! 23:35 < AlonzoTG> om 23:35 < joshcryer> KEY PRESSES 23:35 < fenn> i love that we still use 1890s typography conventions for patent documents 23:35 < kanzure> really? 23:35 < joshcryer> I am going to patent wasd! 23:35 < jebba> kanzure, then perhaps you could have something like a mendel be a "project" instead of a package. You grab a project that grabs a ton of packages (screws, threaded rods, motors). So the mendel.proj file could just be #!/bin/sh git clone this-screw.git ; git clone that-screw.git ; git clone foo-motor.git .... etc 23:35 < kanzure> there was this funny graph in a research paper about debian 23:36 < kanzure> it was projecting 100,000 packages by 2006 23:36 < fenn> jebba: you're missing the point, that packages depend on other packages 23:36 < kanzure> instead debian tapered off around 20 to 30,000 i think, depending on how you squint 23:36 < jebba> kanzure, ya i was just thinking about what it would be like managing so many git archives 23:36 < fenn> that's why we have a package manager that pulls in all the dependencies 23:36 < jebba> fenn ah si 23:36 < kanzure> yeah a project/package is basically the same thing 23:36 < kanzure> *it is the same 23:36 < QuantumG> grr 23:36 < fenn> no, a project is the people and institutions that create a thing.. see the spec :P 23:37 < kanzure> (semantically you could argue a project is an instance of thing-creation) 23:37 < AlonzoTG> Yeah, I have about 1,100 packages installed on my gentoo system. 23:37 < kanzure> stop reading my brains fenn 23:37 < QuantumG> John Lewis of Mining The Sky fame was on The Space Show yesterday and Dave hasn't archived the show yet 23:37 < fenn> i have timestamps on my side 23:37 < jebba> fenn: ah, now i actually recall that. sheez. in front of me too. ;) 23:37 < kanzure> fenn: jrayhawk's jules recommended git modules instead of entire git repos 23:37 < joshcryer> I'm going to be controversial: a project file is more typically used by a GUI to interface before building, a package does not typically need a GUI. 23:38 < fenn> yeah i just recently discovered modules 23:38 < fenn> need to play with that more 23:38 < kanzure> timschmidt has been using it for MGED 23:38 < kanzure> uh 23:38 < kanzure> wait, wrong namespace 23:38 < fenn> mcad 23:38 < kanzure> MCAD 23:39 < kanzure> MGED is the brlcad CAD.. oh just fuck it all. whatever. 23:39 < fenn> it's basically just an include statement 23:39 < kanzure> maybe i said the wrong thing then 23:39 < timschmidt> ? 23:39 < kanzure> jules was suggesting a way to compress an entire git archive 23:40 < kanzure> i.e. not distributing all of the diffs? 23:40 < kanzure> jrayhawk: are you around? 23:40 < fenn> dunno if it's really the best thing to raw include it as a module at the git level.. otherwise standard interfaces never develop, every package depends on its own specific version of whatever it was when they included it 23:40 < kanzure> yeah that's bad. 23:40 < fenn> fetch? checkout? something like that 23:41 < fenn> you could always just tgz the working directory 23:41 < timschmidt> I prefer not using git as part of the package 23:41 < kanzure> i do forsee problems if most projects are like reprap.git (multiple gigabytes of bullshit) 23:41 < timschmidt> eventually something better than git will be developed, then we're screwed 23:41 < kanzure> fenn: also are we calling it reprap.skdb and screw.skdb or what? 23:42 < fenn> timschmidt: as long as it's a dvcs it should translate fine 23:42 < fenn> if it's not a dvcs then i don't want it 23:42 < timschmidt> kanzure: some limited progress fomenting a coup within reprap tonight 23:42 < timschmidt> it will (hopefully) be a velvet revolution though. 23:42 < timschmidt> doing my best to prevent all-out forking 23:42 < fenn> a velveeta revolution 23:43 < timschmidt> :( 23:43 < kanzure> fenn: so, jrayhawk also recommended that we write a specification for the package manager 23:43 < fenn> how to make velveeta: sweep up all the cheese trimmings from the factory floor, add 30% cheese solvent, heat and stir 23:43 < kanzure> i made some hasty decisions in 2009/2010 to put packages in /usr/share/local/skdb/ or something 23:43 < kanzure> there also needs to be a standard way to see a user's installed inventory or physical inventory 23:43 < fenn> i agree that was premature 23:44 < joshcryer> timschmidt, RepRap's Tunsina moment? ;P 23:44 < kanzure> and in future la-la land, hooked up with rfid of their tools or whatever other crazy schemes 23:44 < fenn> we dont have any inventory spec 23:44 < fenn> and your lists of random bullshit didn't help 23:44 < timschmidt> joshcryer: not quite. I've been chipping away at things, along with Sebastian, and others for quite some time now 23:44 < kanzure> fenn: the lists weren't meant to help in that capacity ;) 23:45 < joshcryer> kanzure is an OCD list maker. 23:45 < joshcryer> I think. 23:45 < kanzure> joshcryer: i have ~/lists under revision control :( 23:45 < kanzure> 15 MB presently. 23:45 < joshcryer> kanzure, heh! 23:45 < fenn> words! 23:45 < CryptoQuick> you have a lists directory in your home? 23:45 < CryptoQuick> that's 15 MB of text files? 23:46 < CryptoQuick> (under revision control, which git makes hella bloated) 23:46 < fenn> git isn't bloated 23:46 < timschmidt> no, if anything git compresses the fuck out of items under it's control 23:46 < kanzure> meetlog.git is 100+ MB for a 2 MB file.. mostly because the diffs are crazy 23:46 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: but yes 23:46 < CryptoQuick> insanity 23:46 < kanzure> here's my ~/index.txt file http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/home-index.txt 23:47 < CryptoQuick> I made a list the other day, on google calendar 23:47 < CryptoQuick> it says: 23:47 < CryptoQuick> - proposal 23:47 < CryptoQuick> - biz cards 23:47 < CryptoQuick> - appeal fafsa 23:48 < fenn> many of those directory names look familiar 23:48 -!- dbolser [~dmb@bioinformatics.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:48 < joshcryer> Your fafsa wasn't approved? 23:48 < joshcryer> :( 23:48 -!- dbolser [~dmb@bioinformatics.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:48 < CryptoQuick> joshcryer: yeah, nah 23:48 < CryptoQuick> I'm still gonna go, just... shit might get effed 23:48 < kanzure> fenn: silence or else i'll have to kill you 23:49 < fenn> you'll get your come-uppance, youngun! 23:49 < CryptoQuick> out of the four semesters I've been going to MSCD, I've never completed 100% of my classes for any semester 23:49 < joshcryer> kanzure, financials should be in /usr/lib/brain dude 23:49 < fenn> just wait until that world eating AI you're building convinces you to let it out of its box 23:49 < kanzure> you mean list eating 23:49 < fenn> same thing, from its perspective 23:49 < joshcryer> fenn, it won't know it's in a box. 23:50 < kanzure> so how would you do an inventory specification? 23:50 -!- Daeken [~daeken@straylight.daeken.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50 < kanzure> i think a package manager should be somewhat aware of what you already have laying around 23:50 < kanzure> supporting (in the future) rfid-tagged libraries of tools is also important, or other schemes 23:50 < fenn> uh, i think i actually did write an inventory spec, but it's perhaps too heavy for anybody to actually fill out completely 23:50 < joshcryer> Just copy ipkg and suck in dependencies when needed! 23:50 < QuantumG> like your mamma's clothes 23:50 -!- Daeken [~daeken@straylight.daeken.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:51 < kanzure> if we need to get a good approximation of all existing tools, 23:51 < kanzure> we can have a 'hackerspace census' and have people just type in tool names 23:51 < kanzure> and material quantities/names 23:51 < JayDugger> Have fun eliminating duplicates. 23:51 < kanzure> then use this as fodder for unit testing 23:51 < fenn> hm this is weird, why isn't it working? http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/data/ 23:51 < joshcryer> skdb-pkg list 23:51 < joshcryer> there 23:51 < kanzure> fenn: it's not there? http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/tree/data/ 23:51 < fenn> oh, i clicked on 'data' from http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/inventory 23:52 < fenn> is data some keyword for cgit? 23:52 < kanzure> joshcryer: yeah but people don't call their tools by their skdb package names 23:52 < kanzure> jrayhawk: fenn found a cgit bug 23:52 < fenn> it does that with every subdirectory apparently 23:52 < kanzure> not in http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/ 23:53 < joshcryer> kanzure, this is where we employ fascism. 23:53 < kanzure> although it does fuck up the directory names (like BOM) when you click the links 23:53 < kanzure> joshcryer: yes but nobody *knows* the skdb package names because they don't exist yet 23:53 < kanzure> plus, inventory tracking (like via rfid) *is* going to become more popular 23:53 < kanzure> so having some support from that, at least conceptually, is important 23:54 < fenn> i still think this is an ok amount of info to track http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/inventory/data/schema.original 23:54 < kanzure> the point is to have the package manager know what's available 23:54 < timschmidt> kanzure: you can mine thingiverse for tool names 23:54 < timschmidt> http://www.thingiverse.com/tools 23:54 < kanzure> timschmidt: yeah but consider "Sears Bowsaw" versus "bowsaw" 23:55 < timschmidt> well... a quick read-through can eliminate dupes 23:55 < timschmidt> getting the initial list with (not too many) dupes is the hard part 23:55 < kanzure> it'd be like asking a debian user to type their debian package names :P 23:55 < kanzure> i suppose 23:55 < fenn> i dislike thingiverse's ontology 23:55 < fenn> "automated tools" vs "power tools" vs "electrical tools" 23:56 < timschmidt> add it to the list of things we don't like about thingiverse ;) 23:56 < timschmidt> I would just dump all tools into one category 23:56 < kanzure> fenn: maybe we should just say "these are the 200 basic packages that need to exist, and these are what their names will be" 23:57 < kanzure> and then make very searchable descriptions so users can eventually select the "right" package from a list when the package manager looks at their ~/inventory.csv file and pukes with their awful ~~MY-LOVELY--BANDSAW~~ entries 23:57 < fenn> sure 23:57 < fenn> Did you mean... 23:58 < kanzure> so, 23:58 < kanzure> 1) where should packages be stored on the user's system? 23:59 < fenn> red herring 23:59 < fenn> who fucking cares 23:59 < kanzure> 2) where should the package manager store a "sanitized" inventory data? 23:59 < kanzure> fenn: someone who is writing a package manager would need to know these things 23:59 < kanzure> plus, it's good to have the same filesystem structure for debugging purposes 23:59 < kanzure> or at least the same set of environmental variables, etc. 23:59 < fenn> specified in conf file, with a list of search paths defined in the spec --- Log closed Sat Jan 15 00:00:01 2011