--- Log opened Wed Feb 02 00:00:10 2011
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01:05 < timschmidt> "This 'reload' thing is a specific part of GCC that happens towards the end of the (long) code generation process. By the time GCC gets to this stage, GCC has transformed the code into an arcane internal format called "non-strict RTL", which looks a lot like machine code, except it doesn't respect the limitations of the target machine (such as the limited number of registers). Imagine you're cooking and one of the steps of
01:05 < timschmidt>  your recipe says, "Now melt the butter using your 23rd oven". That's what non-strict RTL is like, it's not very helpful. So the 'reload' module needs to turn that into "strict RTL" by allocating registers and obeying some rules and generally being clever. Once it's "strict RTL", it will be just about ready to actually run on the target CPU. Following the kitchen example, the strict RTL instructions wouldn't refer to a 23r
01:05 < timschmidt> d oven because it knows you don't have one, it'll instead give you instructions that you can follow with only one oven."
01:05 < timschmidt> from a discussion of gcc
01:06 < timschmidt> I thought the idea might map well to skdb
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01:58 < superkuh> What was the URL of the russian 300k book site again? freebooks.dontexist.org or something of the like...
02:04 < Utopiah> free-books.dontexist.com
02:05 < superkuh> Thank you.
02:07 < Utopiah> np
03:30 < fenn> yeah we ran into that issue thinking about how to deal with multiple agents
03:31 < fenn> i'm sure there's some simple planning theory out there that tells me how to make a planning system, but i don't know what to look for
04:32 < kanzure> electricity out again
04:52 < kanzure> can someone check why? it drops a few degrees and texas stops working geeze
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05:50 < Lukas__> Class is canceled!  :D
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07:34 < Utopiah> kanzure: I think you started doing that a bit through your logs, shared interests in your social network http://www.gravity.com/labs/twinterest
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08:14 < delinquentme> omgggg SO EXCITEDMENT
08:14 < delinquentme> more electronics on the wayyyy!
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08:22 < archels> delinquentme: namely?
08:25 < delinquentme> ardy ethernet shield
08:25 < delinquentme> AND!
08:26 < delinquentme> four quadruple half H drivers :D
08:26 < delinquentme> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/315
08:26 < delinquentme> BLAM!
08:26  * delinquentme pretty excited
08:26 < delinquentme> OOPS!
08:26  * delinquentme runs to little girls room
08:28 < delinquentme> does you know things aboot SN754410s archels ?
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08:44 < fenn> they're good for pager motors and that's about it
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08:45 < fenn> or those cheap dc motors that are in all the chinese products
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08:46 < ThomasEgi> motors? did i miss something?
08:46 < fenn> don't believe the 1A rating
08:46 < fenn> ThomasEgi: yes
08:47 < fenn> "With the SN754410, you must use external flyback diodes"
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08:49 < fenn> oh one other thing, you can stack them vertically for more power
08:50 < fenn> also $2.35 is like way too much
08:50 < ThomasEgi> fenn, what's it about, motor-control aside.?
08:52 < fenn> oh, i dunno, delinquentme is getting some stuff from sparkfun
08:55 < fenn> i just read the gingery 'how to make an injection molding machine' and now i cant stop thinking about all the little boxes i could make
08:59 < fenn> "Babbage has, on occasion, expressed misgivings about the various interpenetrations of silicon and flesh. Why risk ‘cyborging’ oneself, when a wearable Analytical Engine can upgrade natural faculties through a removable carapace of information technology?"
09:01 < fenn> i didnt even know blogs existed in 1998
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09:09 < delinquentme> fenn, yeah i've heard about the stacking
09:09 < delinquentme> but what would you use to drive a bipolar ?
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09:12 < fenn> how big? what application?
09:14 < fenn> the sn754410 will probably work ok for whatever you're doing, assuming you are full or half stepping and don't mind losing steps to resonance every once in a while
09:16 < fenn> this blog from 1998 sounds just like hplusmagazine :(
09:18 < fenn> actually it's better
09:28 < delinquentme> fenn, im thinking either way i need a position feedback mechanism .. unless you know of a driver that i wouldnt have to worry about something like that .. additionalyl i dont need CRAZY torque .. like i think 1A worth would be plenty
09:31 < fenn> why do you need position feedback with steppers?
09:31 < delinquentme> because i do :D
09:32 < delinquentme> but thats another issue to work out later .. probs gonna be IR sensors
09:32 < delinquentme> and honestly .. who uses steppers and doesnt give a shit where they land?
09:42 < fenn> well, there's not point in using steppers if you have position feedback.. that's all
09:43 < fenn> sure, you can think of them as high pole count AC servo motors, but they're not, not really
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09:48 < kanzure> fenn: there's some jerks claiming their 1994 sites were blogs too
09:48 < kanzure> fenn: maybe delinquentme doesn't know what a servo is
09:49 < delinquentme> dont servos go out of whack as well?
09:49 < delinquentme> so regardless im gonna need feedback right?
09:50 < delinquentme> kanzure, ^
09:52 < kanzure> i thought this was the definition of a servo
09:52 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servomechanism
09:55 < delinquentme> srsly i dont think anyone knows wtf they actually do
09:55 < delinquentme> that or i just read crappy blogs
09:58 < delinquentme> MEH! well kanzure thanks for the link
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10:05 < kanzure> hi ENKI-][
10:05 < ENKI-][> hi
10:06 < ENKI-][> i was reminded of this place because i ran into biohack.me and they were arguing politics
10:06 < ENKI-][> how are things?
10:07 < kanzure> haha biohack.me thinks i'm the owner of diybio.org?
10:08 < ENKI-][> something like that
10:08 < ENKI-][> the shift from annoying to purely amusing happened when somebody said H+ was distasteful because they were a bunch of anarchists :P
10:09 < kanzure> "although I agree with him on a large number of fronts, he has too close ties with the frankly absolutely contemptible Humanity+ (ex-WTA/Extropy) community."
10:12 < kanzure> i should have believed you when you said they were arguing politics
10:12 < kanzure> that was a waste of time :P
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10:12 < ENKI-][> *shrug*
10:13 < ENKI-][> for a grinder community they don't appear to be doing much grinding... or much of anything else
10:13 < ENKI-][> not that i can talk. grinders at least cut themselves open.
10:15 < fenn> yeah, real productive
10:15 < fenn> "at least i gash my fucking arm open! what have you done!"
10:16 < kanzure> DRAMA
10:17 < kanzure> "i made yet another forum"
10:17 < ENKI-][> well, that's the thing, right
10:18 < ENKI-][> the grinder argument is "other transhumanists are all theory, and they aren't doing anything until the tech magically arrives to do things worth doing"
10:18 < kanzure> that's total bullshit
10:18 < ENKI-][> the upside is that we have a better chance of surviving long enough to see truly reliable implants
10:19 < kanzure> there are a lot of transhumanists like that, but who cares about them
10:19 < kanzure> just focus on the people working on projects
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10:19 < ENKI-][> there's certainly a continuum of circumspection
10:20 < drazak> fenn: what are you measuring that's going to be 1000°C?
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10:21 < ENKI-][> but, being aware of the one side makes me aware that i'm very much on the other side. i haven't even built an EEG system yet, for instance. my augmentations go only so far as prototype wearables with COTS HMDs and crappy homebrew keyboards
10:21 < fenn> gah why are you asking me in this channel drazak
10:21 < drazak> fenn: because?
10:21 < fenn> because.. uh, then other people with the same question will know the answer?
10:22 < kanzure> ENKI-][: EEG isn't that useful
10:22 < ENKI-][> i know it isn't
10:23 < ENKI-][> that doesn't mean that it's not useful at all, though. and, it's within the range of possibilities for a hobbyist like me with no source of income and poor soldering skills
10:23 < ENKI-][> my wearables aren't terribly useful either
10:23 < ENKI-][> and my telepresence bot only works in IR range
10:24 < kanzure> instead of EEG how about something more useful like wearable computing
10:24 < kanzure> or 3d print yourself a better keyboard
10:24 < ENKI-][> for that i would need to buy a 3d printer
10:25 < ENKI-][> even the cheapest repstrap costs more than grabbing the populated boards from the openeeg folks
10:25 < kanzure> how much do the openeeg boards cost anyway?
10:25 < ENKI-][> $250 or something altogether
10:25 < kanzure> yeah so $300 or $400 for a reprap
10:25 < ENKI-][> i get both and there goes my life savings
10:26 < kanzure> what? maybe you should work on that
10:26 < fenn> expecting a reprap to work as expected is not a good plan
10:26 < kanzure> that's true
10:26 < fenn> also i'm amazed the openeeg stuff costs so much
10:27 < kanzure> i don't think EEG is a good idea, ENKI-][
10:27 < fenn> rain said the parts alone were ~$100
10:27 < ENKI-][> well, it's what? four boards, specially etched by a third party in small quantities
10:27 < fenn> but it's basically an arduino and some resistors, afaict
10:27 < kanzure> pick something else: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v3.txt
10:28 < ENKI-][> i think there was a reason why they decided not to use an arduino for that, but i can't remember what it was
10:28 < ENKI-][> they were very nervous about noise
10:28 < kanzure> what is it with this obsession with poorly thought out transhumanist projects
10:28 < ENKI-][> anyway, that's not the point really
10:28 < fenn> btw did you know you can get reasonably cheap modafinil from india?
10:28 < kanzure> "well, we can either cut ourselves or slave to EEG"
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10:29 < kanzure> it's definitely something, but there's a lot of interesting projects that nobody is bothering with
10:29 < kanzure> and i can't figure out why?
10:29 < ENKI-][> my point is that knowing that people actually go through with poorly thought out transhumanist projects makes me aware of precisely how well-thought-out a project would need to be for me to even consider investing in it
10:30 < fenn> kanzure: all the non-poorly thought out projects are subject to (self imposed) disclosure restrictions as a result of their financing model
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10:30 < ENKI-][> EEG is a known quantity, fairly cheap, fairly safe, and is now even being commercialized. i've known about the mechanisms behind it for years. it still doesn't make the cut for me.
10:30 < kanzure> i should put up the myostatin project on kickstarter
10:31 < fenn> what is "the myostatin project" exactly?
10:31 < kanzure> something like "demonstrate the expression of a myostatin inhibitor in a cell culture or plant"
10:31 < ENKI-][> loading up on piracetam and playing with subliminals, on the other hand, does make the cut
10:31 < fenn> "dear kickstarter, help me cause grievous health problems to an unwitting volunteer, kthx"
10:31 < kanzure> unwitting volunteer == ecoli? :)
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10:32 < fenn> what you just said doesn't make any sense
10:32 < ENKI-][> fenn: i think that would get a lot of donations. you should propose that on kickstarter.
10:32 < fenn> first of all, plants and cell cultures aren't muscles
10:32 < kanzure> fenn: there's peptide-based and other protein-based myostatin inhibitors
10:32 < ENKI-][> hm
10:32 < ENKI-][> you could always try growing meat on a rack
10:32 < fenn> oh you just want to express the gene
10:32 < kanzure> you can try to do in vitro protein/transcription but it's not always a good idea
10:33 < kanzure> so if i set the mark high enough for the project, i could probably also fund a few other diybio projects that need to happen
10:33 < fenn> i'm pretty sure that's a done deal, i mean it's been purified/crystallized right?
10:33 < kanzure> like an open source hardware version of an hplc machine
10:33 < kanzure> there's one company that was trying to commercialize something.. but it stopped halfway through clinical trials?
10:34 < fenn> o rly
10:34 < kanzure> "As of 2009[update], no myostatin-inhibiting drugs for humans are on the market, but an antibody genetically engineered to neutralize myostatin was developed by New Jersey pharmaceutical company Wyeth.[22] The inhibitor is called MYO-029, but, after an initial clinical trial, Wyeth says they will not be developing the drug.[23] Some athletes, eager to get their hands on such drugs, turn to the internet, where fake "myostatin blockers" are being sol
10:34 < fenn> heh http://www.mybodybuildingcoupons.com/myo-t12-myostatin-inhibitor-on-sale-now/
10:35 < kanzure> might be fake
10:35 < fenn> you could test it for activity
10:35 < fenn> people might actually pay for that
10:35 < fenn> it always annoyed me that there's no easy way to verify something is what it says it is
10:36 < kanzure> there are many random things i could put up on kickstarter, sure..
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10:42 < kanzure> fenn: you should make the genomera people do that
10:42 < ENKI-][> hm
10:43 < fenn> myo-t12 (supposedly) contains follistatin from fertile chicken eggs
10:43 < ENKI-][> about the best thing i could think of for kickstarter is porting a map-reduce clone with a VM to contiki
10:47 < fenn> derr.. what?
10:47 < kanzure> that's honestly the only kickstarter thing you can think of?
10:48 < fenn> map-reduce for microcontrollers? really?
10:50 < fenn> kanzure did you ever get that robot arm running?
10:51 < kanzure> nope.. bought the parts but didn't bother
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10:55 < fenn> what is the status of the space formerly partially occupied by ahs?
10:56 < ENKI-][> kanzure: the only thing that's both feasible and worth going on camera for
10:56 < kanzure> fenn: same state as when ahs left
10:58 < ENKI-][> i mean, you can do the software in a fashion not entirely unlike trivial, but to test it in meatspace you need a shitload of contiki-compatible devices. these are cheap individually, but a thousand arduinos still adds up
10:58 < ENKI-][> and it would be more like a thousand tisky devices since you want RIME support
11:00 < ENKI-][> i don't know how much those cost, but i was pretty surprised by the cost of beagleboards and other SBCs. a beagleboard costs 2.5 times what i paid for my new server
11:00 < fenn> yeah, i'm pretty bummed about it too
11:01 < fenn> 10 year old laptop performance for the price of a netbook, what a deal
11:01 < ENKI-][> which totally killed my pirate-blimp project
11:02 < ENKI-][> i wanted to have wifi-stealing bittorrent seedboxes in autonomous blimps
11:03 < ENKI-][> but when a computer small enough to be lifted by a small blimp costs a couple hundred dollars, it's no longer feasible to let a swarm out
11:03 < fenn> hm, well you just need usb host for that
11:04 < ENKI-][> if a beagleboard has circa 2000 laptop performance, though, that's pretty damned impressive. i was expecting it to have circa 1995 laptop performance
11:04 < fenn> surely there's something cheap-ish?
11:04 < fenn> you overestimate computers in 1995
11:04 < ENKI-][> i still use computers built in 1995
11:05 < ENKI-][> i have a machine manufactured in 1999 currently running in here
11:05 < ENKI-][> i also have a laptop built in 1983 in here, but it's not worth using
11:06 < fenn> 1995 toshiba satellite had a 75MHz processor and 4MB memory (upgraded)
11:07 < ENKI-][> that's damned good compared to the kinds of components i'm used to working with in an embedded context
11:07 < ENKI-][> an atmega8515 has 512 bytes of ram, 4k flash, and runs at 16mhz
11:07 < ENKI-][> er. 20mhz if you overclock it
11:08 < ENKI-][> i think you can upgrade the ram to 1k, but you lose a bunch of your pins
11:10 < ENKI-][> i was expecting the beagleboard to be roughly equivalent to one of my circa-1995 palmtops -- around 33mhz, maybe a meg of ram if you upgrade
11:10 < kanzure> so there seems to be a lot of people interested in diy transhumanism,
11:10 < kanzure> but 1) they don't have money
11:10 < kanzure> and 2) they are not interested in doing the projects that need to happen
11:10 < kanzure> like boring "make a chromatography setup"
11:10 < ENKI-][> circa 2000 laptops are, what, 200+ mhz and a hundred megs of ram?
11:10 < kanzure> so, what do i tell them?
11:12 < ENKI-][> kanzure: you could tell them "do the boring stuff now for a reliable system in ten years, or cut yourself up and die of infection in your kitchen next week"
11:12 < ENKI-][> but i think a lot of them might go for the latter :P
11:12 < kanzure> "new competition: who can get the most creative infection"
11:12 < ENKI-][> i think someone has already won that
11:12 < kanzure> bonus points for knowing its identity
11:13 < kanzure> bonus points for fungi with unpronouncable names
11:13 < ENKI-][> oh. maybe not then ;-)
11:13 < ENKI-][> no no no. bonus points for fungi with pronouncable names. they are more rare.
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11:14 < kanzure> so a few years ago humanity+ raised $75,000 for absolutely nothing
11:14 < kanzure> i wonder if i can get them to do that again but let me throw money at hardware projects
11:15 < fenn> well, i wouldnt be interested if the beagleboard was just a glorified microcontroller
11:15 < ENKI-][> i'd like to raise 75k for nothing. where do i sign up?
11:15 < fenn> but it is annoying that there's nothing out there that can do usb host and costs less than $100
11:16 < kanzure> really? nothing?
11:16 < ENKI-][> zipit
11:16 < kanzure> usb host seems important
11:16 < ENKI-][> hell, the new arduino can do usb host
11:17 < fenn> uh, no
11:17 < ENKI-][> it probably can't do what you want to do with it, if you're looking into beagleboards
11:17 < fenn> the new arduino has hardware usb device mode
11:17 < fenn> i want a low power, small, "real computer" for wearable computing
11:18 < ENKI-][> ah
11:18 < ENKI-][> why not just disassemble a netbook?
11:18 < fenn> preferably with composite video out, but meh
11:18 < fenn> you know that's not a bad idea
11:19 < fenn> beagleboard draws less than 2 watts though, i've been seduced
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11:19 < ENKI-][> get one of the cheap acers with the solid state disk. plenty of battery life.
11:20 < ENKI-][> i've just got the one netbook, with a real hard disk. it's infeasable as a wearable because i'm unwilling to disassemble it and because it overheats if i shut it and put it in a bag
11:20 < ENKI-][> but disassemble it and you can do the sash thing
11:20 < fenn> netbooks are all intel cpu's which suck power-wise
11:21 < ENKI-][> hm
11:21 < fenn> or intel architecture, same diff
11:21 < kanzure> fenn should we arm wrestle over who should fix/redo the document into whatever other format
11:21 < kanzure> or maybe rock-paper-scissors
11:21 < kanzure> i choose rock
11:21 < ENKI-][> you're concerned about power usage, but you're using a bunch of usb devices?
11:21 < fenn> i choose rock
11:22 < kanzure> best 2/3?
11:22 < ENKI-][> i choose spock
11:22 < fenn> is there an alternative to usb?
11:23 < fenn> say i want to add wifi functionality, how to go about doing that without resorting to cheap plentiful if poorly documented usb dongles?
11:23 < fenn> and webcams, etc etc
11:24 < ENKI-][> by resorting to cheap plentiful if poorly documented independent modules that people make usb dongles out of, and directly interfacing them to the mainboard you designed in gschem and etched with a sharpie?
11:25 < ENKI-][> alternately you could decide to break the software of an existing device that has such capabilities
11:26 < ENKI-][> hack a psp or some other reasonably cheap portable computing device designed for the button-mashing set
11:26 < fenn> i dont want to hack anything
11:27 < fenn> basically that means "do it the hard way" for the next 5 years
11:27 < ENKI-][> depends on how much functionality you want
11:27 < fenn> i just want something that works, has drivers for all its components, you know what you would expect from a computer
11:28 < ENKI-][> you can strap an android phone in front of your face and write an app that causes camera preview to act as an active background
11:28 < ENKI-][> though, i wouldn't really trust it not to glitch up
11:30 < ENKI-][> you could build a flashcart, pull the lcd out of a first generation GBA and pull the backing off, and wire a chording keyboard up to some spare lines
11:30 < ENKI-][> all of those things constitute wearable computing, but none of them are useful
11:30 < fenn> thanks for the useless suggestions
11:31 < ENKI-][> i'm very good at those.
11:31 < fenn> does zipit work for your blimp idea?
11:31 < ENKI-][> i don't know. i can't afford a zipit
11:32 < fenn> $50 is too much?
11:33 < fenn> surely a RC blimp costs more than that
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11:33 < ENKI-][> for something that might not be worthwhile, yes. for something that, to work as planned, needs hundreds? yes.
11:34 < fenn> jeez they got it playing video
11:34 < ENKI-][> i have a shitload of RC blimps in the barn. when the owners of the nearby toy store got audited by the IRS, they fled to some other country under an assumed name so that they didn't have to pay thirty years of back taxes, and they predictably trashed their entire stock. i got first pick.
11:34 < Lukas_> hullo
11:35 < ENKI-][> what they didn't have was boxes upon boxes of nicely hackable computers
11:35 < Lukas_> Hullo ENKI
11:36 < Lukas_> I don't believe we've met before
11:36 < ENKI-][> which is why i had the camera assembly for my telepresence rig long before i had the robot to stick it on
11:36 < ENKI-][> we may not have. i haven't been here in quite a while.
11:37 < Lukas_> ah
11:37 < Lukas_> I am the new kid
11:38 < ENKI-][> i'm the one in here who is more diy and less bio >.<
11:40 < ThomasEgi> <- no bio at all. mostly diy and electronics
11:40 < ENKI-][> likewise
11:40 < ENKI-][> i saw you on the biohack.me place i think
11:41 < ENKI-][> is it quite as inactive as it looks? i only visisted today.
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11:49 < ThomasEgi> well. it looks like the first lepht hype is about to be over
11:51 < ENKI-][> and the second about to begin, from the looks of that wired article
11:51 < kanzure> ENKI-][: http://exi-chat.blogspot.com/2011/01/exi-transcending-human-diy-style.html
11:51 < ThomasEgi> ENKI-][, i'm not sure baout a 2nd wave
11:52 < ThomasEgi> i guess the initial talk on 27c3 was quite the quake.
11:52 < ENKI-][> well, the first wave was due to an article in h+ magazine
11:52 < ENKI-][> that was back whem h+ magazine existed
11:52 < ENKI-][> and, it died what? two years ago?
11:52 < kanzure> haha it still exists :(
11:52 < kanzure> i'm getting paid to fix hplusmagazine
11:53 < ENKI-][> oh
11:53 < ENKI-][> still, that lepht article was olllld
11:53 < kanzure> 2009? 2010?
11:53 < ENKI-][> and that's how i got aquainted with her work
11:53 < ThomasEgi> ENKI-][, this wave rolled in after lepht's talk on 27c3
11:53 < ENKI-][> the ccc talk would indicate a second wave, i think
11:53 < ENKI-][> and the wired article a harbringer of it
11:54 < ThomasEgi> jeah.
11:54 < ENKI-][> by the by, is there a video of her talk floating around?
11:54 < ThomasEgi> well most people on biohack me are just interested in magnets :P
11:54 < ThomasEgi> sure
11:54 < ENKI-][> i got that impression
11:54 < ENKI-][> i also got the impression that most of them don't know a diode from an IC
11:55 < ThomasEgi> sad but true^
11:55 < ThomasEgi> none of them appears to be an engineer of any kind
11:56 < ENKI-][> cut-yourself-up-and-insert-magnets might become the new nanofingers-will-fix-everything
11:56 < ThomasEgi> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APOAmxFEMkQ
11:56 < ENKI-][> or the new dreadlocks-and-rollerscates
11:56 < ENKI-][> ooh
11:56 < ENKI-][> thanks :-)
11:57 < ENKI-][> kanzure: by the by, you said you were once called upon to implement zigzag by some XOC people?
12:01 < ENKI-][> i bring it up because i worked on a project last summer very similar to the one i think you were called upon for
12:07 < kanzure> there's a long story involved but to specifically answer your question, no
12:07 < kanzure> that project involved more indoor localization via wifi anyway
12:08 < kanzure> wait, zigzag or do you mean zigbee
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12:23 < fenn> "Safety campaigners and police say it does not go far enough. They are demanding far tougher sentences than the current maximum of two years for carrying a knife."
12:23 < fenn> i wonder how they chop vegetables in england
12:25 < ThomasEgi> lazors?
12:25 < ThomasEgi> or.. kitchen-turbines?
12:25 < fenn> why would you turn over your bat'leth anyway? i just dont get it http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-387680/Lethal-Star-Trek-blade-seized-knives-amnesty.html
12:25 < ThomasEgi> chicken in - curry out?
12:28 < ThomasEgi> so they ban knifes. and people will start killing each other by hitting heads with big-fat-bibles. will they ban the bible,too?
12:30 < fenn> only if they ban all other books as well, and then only criminals will have books
12:30 < fenn> good riddance i say :P
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12:31 < ThomasEgi> not to mention stairs,  crosswalks, and chickenwings.
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12:32  * fenn mumbles something about water poisoning
12:33 < ThomasEgi> point made.
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12:42 < ENKI-][> well, she's cute. i was expecting her to be unattractive.
12:42 < ENKI-][> kanzure: zigzag
12:42 < ENKI-][> XOC = xanadu operating company
12:43 < ENKI-][> which is probably technically incorrect because if i recall, it got bought by autodesk, who fired all the people and absorbed the brand after a few years of nothing stable coming out
12:50 < kanzure> oh that's right.. natasha vita-more and ted nelson were doing something
12:50 < kanzure> or at least claiming that they were doing something with zigzag
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13:03 < ENKI-][> kanzure: and nothing materialized, as far as you know? i recall that you said you had turned them down
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14:46 < joshcryer> http://kepler.nasa.gov/news/nasakeplernews/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=98
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16:08 < ybit> how does molecular manufacturing affect the supply chain
16:08 < ybit> (well articulated question)
16:09 < ybit> let's say for example you want to create an lcd monitor (because lcd monitors will still be used when molecular manufacturing comes around, wink wink)...
16:10 < ybit> molecular manufacturing may be slow, like repraps/makerbots
16:12 < ybit> in that case, you would want one molecular manufacturing machine(mmm) a certain parts, another producing other parts...
16:14 < ybit> well, i'm not going to toss out all my thoughts, because no one probably cares to hear it, but i'm just trying to walkthrough a scenario where mmm solve the problem of having to work, hunger, etc.
16:14 < ybit> feel free to join in anyone
16:15 < ybit> if it's slow to print, it won't print enough for our consumer demands
16:16 < ybit> or it does, it will require several machines, and i don't think people are going to want 10 of these machines in their houses
16:16 < ybit> (maybe they will)
16:17 < ybit> Utopiah: this is utopian, so you've surely considered it
16:20 < ybit> my pitiful brain can't or just refuses to contemplate it further by itself
16:22 < kanzure> for non-business-oriented stuff you'd just want to spend time making better tools that don't suck
16:24 < ybit> instead of having them in your house, could have small community owned manufacturing shops which contain about 20-40 of these continually running
16:25 < ybit> dejavu, i've thought through this before. time to grep the logs.
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17:54 < kanzure> http://waybackmachine.org/ internet archive is beta testing a new interface
18:44 < pasky> ybit: why can't you start by assembling more molecular manufactoring machines?
18:45 < pasky> leave that process running while you go on vacation and the exponential explosion will do its stuff
18:46 < pasky> another thing is that something needs to put together your gazillions of parts made by gazillions of machines, but i think that's more of an engineering problem of design of the parts, and part of the building process may be manufacturing of a much simpler ("snap in these rods") machine to assemble the real thing :)
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18:48 < pasky> (all assuming that if the energy is already cheap enough to allow you manufacture an LCD monitor this way, it's also cheap enough for all this overhead ;)
18:48 < jebba> kanzure, oh cool, i hope its much faster
18:49 < kanzure> pasky: nanofactory animation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg
18:49 < kanzure> it seems a little extreme to have an entire device solely devoted to constructing laptops
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18:50 < kanzure> first things i'd build would be better tools- freitas' proposed molecular manufacturing processes take a very long time to assemble/layer single atoms
18:50 < jebba> oh no! the graphics are broken. :(  http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19970606121107/http://www.verinet.com/pc/         I think (in 1995) they were the first photos of computer parts on the web (?).
18:50 < kanzure> jebba: is it faster/different? i haven't checked it yet
18:50 < jebba> It's a lot faster. For sure. Much nicer interface. Could be faster more still yet. Not google speeds, but before it was almost unusabel.
18:52 < jebba> ah, at least it has the images later on http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19991002105420/http://www.verinet.com/PC/
18:52 < pasky> kanzure: i have zero clue about the actual state of technology and future prospect, i'm just working from the proposition that it's realistic to purchase a machine capable of building your lcd :)
18:52 < jebba> http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19991002163235/http://www.verinet.com/PC/assemble.shtml   heh
18:53 < jebba> That was back in the photograph on slide film, take it to a processing center, pick up a 1x cdrom a week later, etc. era.. ;)
18:54 < pasky> ybit: (of course this is all kind of thwarted by the exponential explosion - that means the mmm will be already insanely cheap and *you* can afford to skip the mmm bootstrap and just buy many of them)
18:55 < kanzure> world transhumanist association 1999 http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19991013135038/http://transhumanism.com/
18:55 < kanzure> "the butt end of the technology curve"
18:57 < pasky> ybit: (the real catch then is the energy; this whole thing will imho eat *awful* amounts of energy, so for it to be practical, you'll probably have to step up energy production - but that is entirely in line with the energy consumption curve of humanity so far, of course)
19:00 < pasky> ybit: so if you're considering any economical implications, they must start and end with the energy; for any real change, you must be able to extract the energy from your environment (without destroying it), or all the costs will be just converted to energy distribution costs
19:00 < kanzure> well this is a blast from the past.. http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19991115134956/http://www.transhumanism.com/groups.htm
19:00 < kanzure> todd huffman is on the 1999 page.. his email is listed as alvinjsminavich@hotmail.com
19:07 < kanzure> http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19991116080910/http://transhumanism.com/homepages.htm
19:08 < kanzure> pretty awful.
19:10 < kanzure> i wonder what happened to this http://diybio.chipin.com/diy-afm-dna-sequencer
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20:22 < QuantumG> fuck
20:23 < QuantumG> 34% of people who claim to understand what BCC means cannot identify the correct description of the functionality from a multiple-choice question
20:24 < QuantumG> fucking webmail providers need to add a ? next to that shit
20:25 < QuantumG> in gmail, you select "add Bcc" and it gives you the box but no "help" or description of it.  I wonder if *any* email programs actually provide help for the term.
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20:40 < jebba> kanzure, heh http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19981201230543/http://www.verinet.com/dns/
20:43 < QuantumG> woah
20:44 < QuantumG> 24% of men have edited a wikipedia entry to fix a mistake.  15% have added new material.
20:44 < QuantumG> 4% of women have edited a wikipedia entry to fix a mistake.  3% have added new material.
20:45 < QuantumG> 0% of black men or women have edited a wikipedia entry to fix a mistake.  0% have added new material.
20:45 < QuantumG> are you kidding me?  zero?
20:58 < kanzure> what was their sample set? wikipedia users?
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21:00 < QuantumG> ~95% of responders said they had read an entry on wikipedia..
21:02 < QuantumG> across all genders and races
21:07 < QuantumG> http://quantumg.net/wikirace.jpg
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 03 00:00:10 2011