--- Log opened Fri Feb 11 00:00:10 2011
00:09 < kanzure> reprap gen3 protocol v1 https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcWKwJ2SAxDzZGd6amZyY2NfMmdtODRnZ2Ri&hl=en
00:09 < kanzure> why is this in a google docs file?
00:28 < kanzure> aw crap my russians don't understand open source software development
00:28 < kanzure> "From my previous experience I figured an empirical rule: the more you talk to people (on business), the more you and they accomplish. It also called team-building. That's what we need right now."
00:28 < kanzure> "I know very little about open-source project management, but in general case the right step now would be to talk to everyone who is willing to contribute (but evidently are not doing it right now) - review what should be accomplished in near future, break the work down into chunks to be handled by 1 person"
00:28 < kanzure> "It's hard to do something alone, or when feeling alone."
00:29 < kanzure> either you build a patch or you don't.. if i build it for you what's the point
00:35 < kanzure> (this is about nanoengineer)
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06:28 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
06:28 < JayDugger> fenn, kanzure, good work on SKDB.
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07:25 < Director_X> anybody here a member of humanity plus las vegas?
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08:42 < kanzure> http://transitlab.org/2010/citizen-science-why-it-matters
08:43 < kanzure> "why it matters: because you get to explain snailbait"
08:43 < kanzure> what?
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09:16 < kanzure> crazy mouse for 3d navigation http://axsotic.com/
09:18 < JayDugger> I'll stick to my SpaceNavigator (http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html, Flash-heavy)
09:20 < strages> you guys see this http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/researchers-develop-thinking-cap-aids-in-creative-development/story-fn5fsgyc-1226002236002
09:21 < JayDugger> Saw it, but I don't know if I'd use it.
09:21 < kanzure> how is this different from tdcs or rtms?
09:21 < kanzure> looks like tdcs to me http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016655
09:22 < strages> right, it is
09:22 < strages> in a wearable device form
09:30 < Lukas_> Interesting
09:30 < Lukas_> Good afternoon gentlemen
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09:40 < strages> got disconnected, what did I miss?
09:40 < kanzure> nothing
09:41 < kanzure> btw there's logs if you ever get bored http://gnusha.org/logs/
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10:12 < strages> k, thanks
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11:31 < archels> alright, this is the third e-mail from KurzweilAI about Transcendent Man in a couple of hours.
11:34 < kanzure> "marketing"
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12:39 < archels> http://www.herbarium.lsu.edu/
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13:11 < kanzure> i heart the internet
13:11 < kanzure> http://o-bio.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4049&p=21014#p21014
13:12 < kanzure> "hi, i'm the author of that paper on dna synthesis, is there anything i can do for you bryan"
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13:43 < thesnark> kanzure somebody casually mentioned skdb to me irl and my jaw dropped
13:43 < thesnark> kanzure pretty sure your visibility is going way up
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15:02 < Technicus> Hello, has there been any discussion here about: [ http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/ ]?
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15:16 < Director_X> Technicus, are you with the zeitgeist people?
15:17 < Technicus> Director_X: No, I just watched the video, and there was discussion about the Peprap project.
15:18 < Technicus> I am very interested in the Reprap.
15:19 < Technicus> . . . and I oftem think about how in the "Star Trek" reality there is no currency.  I often wonder how it could be achieved.
15:19 < Director_X> did you look through the venus project stuff?
15:20 < Technicus> Exchanging and sharing in the value of life based on the merrits of contribution rather than greed.
15:20 < Technicus> Director_X: No, what is that?
15:20 < Technicus> Please educate me.
15:20 < Technicus> I don't want to be ignorant, and I want to participate in a project of substantial value.
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15:22 < Director_X> its the zeitgeist utopia city project-thing....trying to find a link
15:23 < Director_X> http://www.thevenusproject.com/
15:23 < Director_X> these guys are kind of like the communist current of transhumanism
15:24 < Director_X> I'll take some lip for saying that, I'm sure
15:26 < Director_X> I'm sure there are some zeitgeist guys on here that could tell you more about it.  I don't like it myself.
15:27 < Director_X> all I know is they are very aggressive about recruiting in the h+ community right now.
15:29 < kanzure> oh please..
15:29 < kanzure> marcin jakubowski kicks the crap out of vensu project
15:29 < kanzure> venus project
15:31 < Director_X> ^WHO?
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15:33 < Technicus> kanzure: What is: [ marcin jakubowski ]?
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15:36 < kanzure> i don't know, where did you copy/paste that from?
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15:41 < Technicus> Thank you for the assignment.
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15:41 < kanzure> huh?
15:41 < kanzure> what's up with that one
15:46 < Director_X> so wtf was with this marcin guy?
15:47 < kanzure> venus project is just a marketing stunt as far as i can tell
15:47 < kanzure> marcin is building the 'global village construction set' on factor e farm
15:48 < kanzure> http://openfarmtech.org/
15:53 < Director_X> interesting
15:53 < Director_X> no hidden commie agenda?
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16:46 < Lukas_> Good evening
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16:49 < Lukas_> Hello Director X
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16:50 < Director_X> hey Lukas
16:51 < Lukas_> What's going on?
16:51 < Director_X> been trying to do this haptic project
16:53 < Lukas_> Have you picked a location yet?
16:54 < jebba> cool. i saw haptic pads in tokyo science museum. very cool stuff.
16:55 < Director_X> lukas: I'm just doing the prototype thing first.  I haven't commited to a location
16:56 < jebba> ah. I think you're talking about something totally different. ;)
16:57 < Director_X> a little different
16:59 < Lukas_> <Kanzure>:  Marcin Jakubowski's project actually seems practical.  I had no idea about Open Source Ecology
16:59 < Director_X> jebba:  you are talking about the hand control haptic pads, right?
16:59 < Lukas_> Is there any similar projects with applications to space?
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17:09 < kanzure> Lukas_: marcin's videos are up on my youtube account
17:09 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGyDjvTqaQ
17:09 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2mzNhQG0ug
17:10 < Lukas_> excellent, thanks
17:10 < kanzure> http://openfarmtech.org/wiki/CEB_and_Other_Videos
17:14 < jebba> director_x (who is gone...)  nope, talking about pads that are electronic that you touch and they have different feels depending upon the program.   bbiab
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17:40 < kanzure> economic impact of the printing press in europe http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/6092
17:40 < kanzure> sadly "Printing was from the outset a for-profit enterprise."
17:41 < kanzure> "The movable type printing press was developed by Johannes Gutenberg and his business partners in Mainz, Germany around 1450 (as you know) ... The key innovation in printing – the precise combination of metal alloys and the process used to cast the metal type – were trade secrets. The underlying knowledge remained quasi-proprietary for almost a century. The first known “blueprint” manual on the production of movable type was only printed in
17:46 < kanzure> 1540."
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18:53 < kanzure> "make fake phone call" button on a cell phone http://craphound.com/images/e7KOe.jpg
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19:17 < kanzure> "Those sound like great projects, but are they the highest priority & most appropriate for the mission and goals of H+?"
19:18 < kanzure> "well, as director of r&d for humanity+, yes, patri, they are"
19:18 < kanzure> "Personally I think funding for a fulltime executive director would be the best H+ project."
19:18 < kanzure> aw crap
19:24 < kanzure> that's going to be such a huge drain of money
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19:28 < Lukas_> I hope that was a joke
19:31 < fenn> it is a joke, just not an intentional one
19:33 < kanzure> i sent that to patri (since he offered to "shop the proposals around")
19:33 < kanzure> and to ben
19:33 < kanzure> ben just wrote a reply suggesting "you should start a $100k open source hardware fund!"
19:33 < kanzure> to be fair i guess the total cost of all the projects i listed was $1,700,000
19:36 < kanzure> if anyone cares: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html
19:36 < kanzure> a lot of the dollar amounts are random
19:36 < kanzure> a few thousand here, a few thousand there..
19:36 < kanzure> "Funding is needed to make bring" oops
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19:57 < kanzure> fenn: what do you think about goertzel's suggestion that i do a 'oshw fund'?
19:58 < kanzure> dunno if it makes heaps of sense..
19:58 < kanzure> maybe i should call it a 'transhuman tech fund' haw haw
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20:16 < fenn> i thought we've been talking about it for years
20:17 < fenn> the bounty thing
20:17 < kanzure> that's the execution side, what about the fundraising side
20:17 < fenn> also you can do split bounties, 50% before completion or something
20:19 < fenn> darpa/sbir often does things in a progressive fashion.. start off with small theoretical or proof of concept projects, proceed to higher levels of technology readiness and eventually commercialization
20:20 < fenn> fwiw i think most of your dollar amounts should be multiplied by 5-10x
20:20 < kanzure> yeah.. nobody is going to take me seriously asking for $5k for an AFM
20:21 < kanzure> half the time this small amount works because someone is already working on such a project anyway, so additional money means more parts and things happen
20:21 < kanzure> but in the commercial world, anything under $100k in costs would sound crazy
20:21 < fenn> you have to realize that most of research costs is educated labor
20:22 < kanzure> right.. open source development is either directly funded by a company (or whatever) or the developer is subsidizing his time
20:22 < kanzure> s/time/time-cost/
20:22 < fenn> typical researcher salary is 50-100k$/yr so the formula goes "how long will this take, how many people do we need" and multiply away
20:23 < fenn> but i don't think that's the sort of thing we are dealing with here
20:23 < kanzure> if we did that we'd end up with 20 jonathan clines asking for $150k/year salaries
20:24 < fenn> that's why i like the bounty idea, it makes people forget about comparison with other "real jobs" and makes them concentrate on how to solve the fucking problem
20:24 < kanzure> goertzel rewrote the bounty idea or something so now the phrase has less meaning to me
20:24 < kanzure> uh could you re-define it
20:25 < fenn> wha?
20:25 < fenn> okay
20:25 < kanzure> "rewrote" i mean in an email he re-expressed the idea but it was all wrong and now i'm confused
20:25 < kanzure> he made it sound like a consulting project (which might work)
20:25 < fenn> say you have $100k to fund open hardware development, you could blow it all on one researcher's salary for a year, or you could divide it up into tasks with a given dollar amount for accomplishing each task
20:26 < kanzure> but a 'bounty' is traditionally 'you bring me this finished product, you get the money'
20:26 < fenn> right, and most of the developers we are targeting don't have funds to pay for their equipment or materials
20:27 < fenn> so you can establish their trustworthiness/competence by a series of increasingly difficult milestones
20:27 < kanzure> oh right, i remember, doubling the amount i throw at them
20:27 < fenn> "bottom-rung" bounties should come up often enough, documentation projects or whatever
20:27 < kanzure> sure
20:27 < kanzure> (documentation is hard)
20:28 < kanzure> so is it hiring contractors for these teensy milestones?
20:28 < kanzure> or is it "bring it and the money is yours"
20:28 < fenn> uh, the goal is to get shit done, but we can't fund everybody to do everything
20:29 < fenn> so i guess this is a depth first search
20:29 < fenn> starting at the leaf node :P
20:30 < fenn> anyone should be able to submit a claim for a bounty, it's just that we'll be funding some of them
20:30 < kanzure> i think there needs to be a specific definition of 'bounty'
20:31 < kanzure> "payment or reward (especially from a government) for acts such as catching criminals or killing predatory animals or enlisting in the military"
20:31 < fenn> bounty is a well defined goal with a dollar amount provided for accomplishing it
20:31 < kanzure> so someone accomplishes it, tells me, and i give them the money assigned to the bounty?
20:31 < fenn> s/provided for/provided after/
20:31 < kanzure> i see
20:31 < fenn> right
20:31 < kanzure> as opposed to giving money up front?
20:31 < fenn> right
20:32 < fenn> enlisting in the military? wtf
20:33 < kanzure> so, in many cases, people in #reprap can't get a project done because they don't have the money in the first place
20:34 < kanzure> otoh, i do want to avoid situations like lasersaurus or openpcr or biocurious where people get money upfront and then sit around dicking off
20:37 < fenn> heh google pays up to $1337 per browser vulnerability reported
20:37 < kanzure> didn't they bump that up to $3000?
20:37 < kanzure> also, google summer of code is a nice model
20:38 < kanzure> but it subsidizes developer time/salary and not costs (like a computer or software, which a programmer already has)
20:40 < fenn> i've been hemming and hawing about graphics cards, trying to learn CUDA programming
20:40 < kanzure> some of the wannabe nanoengineer people keep bringing that up
20:40 < kanzure> yesterday matvey emailed me saying i need to give the russians "specific tasks"
20:40 < kanzure> ...
20:41 < kanzure> i mean.. it's pretty obvious at this point :P
20:41 < kanzure> "get it running"
20:42 < kanzure> wait, one thing at a time
20:42 < kanzure> how does "you get the money at the end" do anything
20:42 < kanzure> summer of code doesn't do that.
20:43 < fenn> er, yes they do?
20:44 < QuantumG> you get the money at the end is the perfect way to do it - if the purpose is to create an industry
20:44 < QuantumG> here's how much we'll pay if you can deliver, you'll have to raise your own capital to deliver though.
20:45 < QuantumG> it's like a prize, except there's only one competitor.
20:45 < kanzure> fenn: they only pay out at the end? evidence please
20:46 < fenn> Accepted students in good standing with their mentoring organization will receive a 500 USD stipend shortly after coding begins on May 23, 2009.
20:46 < kanzure> http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/faqs#payments_work
20:46 < fenn> Students who receive passing mid-term evaluations will receive a 2000 USD stipend shortly after the mid-term evaluation deadline, July 13, 2009.
20:46 < kanzure> "# Students who receive passing mid-term evaluations will receive a 2250 USD stipend shortly after the mid-term evaluation deadline, July 15, 2011."
20:46 < fenn> Students who receive passing final evaluations and who have submitted their final program evaluations will receive a 2000 USD stipend shortly after the final evaluation deadline, August 26, 2009.
20:47 < kanzure> gsoc has the advantage of 1-on-1 mentorships
20:47 < fenn> we could do a similar model
20:48 < jebba> you can build something like an AFM for $2,500? hmm
20:48 < kanzure> gonna be hard.. open source hardware mentors that i'd actually trust? i dunno
20:48 < kanzure> jebba: for much less... $2500 to do the initial design work and testing and screwups
20:48 < fenn> you dont have to trust them, just their judgement :P
20:48 < kanzure> i imagine a finished afm might cost $100 to $250
20:49 < kanzure> fenn: where ami gonna get these mentors
20:49 < fenn> i've been wondering how different the "pro" afm designs are from the amateur piezo speaker thingies
20:49 < kanzure> gmail gives me ads for commercial AFMs all the time.. $20,000+
20:49 < fenn> mentors are people who seem to be able to distinguish bullshit, and have at least a modicum of vision and ambition
20:50 < kanzure> fenn: have you ever done gsoc or talked with mentors
20:50 < fenn> i'm sure you know many such people from mailing lists etc
20:50 < kanzure> i mean, they tend to be your average open source tech gurus
20:50 < kanzure> maybe.. there's not many gurus in open hardware yet
20:50 < fenn> yeah i attempted to do gsoc this summer on beagleboard remember?
20:50 < kanzure> software guys will probably be fine
20:51 < jebba> Also, why does a company with drexler on board need a paltry $10k?
20:51 < jebba> (well, comparatively)
20:51 < kanzure> jebba: the company was closed
20:51 < kanzure> they were blowing $1M/year
20:51 < fenn> $10k is to keep it from going down the memory hole
20:51 < kanzure> i'm basically the new project maintainer
20:51 < kanzure> but i'm having trouble keeping up on my own with all of my other projects
20:51 < kanzure> i mean, there's a *lot* of components that need to be upgraded
20:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer
20:53 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/nanoengineer-dev
20:53 < jebba> ah cool, cuz I was going to say, you can't download it from their site....
20:54 < fenn> the best thing you could possibly do for ne-1 is getting it in debian
20:54 < kanzure> or get it to actually run with relatively recent libraries..
20:55 < jebba> kanzure, so you're saying you'll be able to develop a AFM  that is open hardware of some sort for $2.5k?
20:55 < kanzure> yes
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20:55 < kanzure> more specifically i'd be using timschmidt
20:55 < kanzure> or fenn (if he wants) but i don't think fenn has his tools at the moment
20:55 < kanzure> timschmidt: ping
20:57 < jebba> isnt he a bit busy? ;)
20:57 < kanzure> depends on the timeline i guess
20:58 < kanzure> fenn: so, i like the gsoc model in general
20:58 < jebba> How will heeks be improved? who is working on it? who will?
20:59 < jebba> and why not openscad or whatever else is out there?
20:59 < kanzure> jebba: i'd ask dan heeks specifically, there's a long todo list of things that need to get done
20:59 < kanzure> yeah, sure, that'd be great too
20:59 < kanzure> just as some brief backgruond..
20:59 < kanzure> this list was sent to some billionaire
20:59 < kanzure> so i was just writing down a broad selection of projects that need support
21:00 < kanzure> openscad would be a good choice
21:08 < kanzure> fenn: so with a gsoc-like model, how does that effect bounties or doubling of project payouts?
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21:27 < kanzure> why does this post exist http://blog.automenta.com/2011/02/engineerables-and-generalizing-skdb.html
21:43 < jebba> ok. i'll take the AFM, plz. Where do I sign up?  (i mean i dont need the AFM itself, the just open/libre plans)
21:46 < kanzure> wait you mean you have money for this
21:48 < jebba> ya, if you can make something like that for $2.5k, sign me up. Oh, but dont bug tim about it cuz he's busy ;)
21:48 < fenn> hey is there some sort of bounty middleman service, and if it doesn't exist why not
21:50 < kanzure> fenn: do you feel up for AFM madness :P
21:50 < fenn> i don't know anything about AFM
21:50 < fenn> i mean i've read a few webpages but that's it
21:51 < kanzure> yes you do.. we've been over the design of this a few times now
21:51 < kanzure> well, true
21:51 < kanzure> photodiode, reflective material, expensive component is the set of sharp tips
21:51 < kanzure> plus figuring out some software for interpreting the signals
21:52 < kanzure> "signal processing" *handwaving*
21:52 < fenn> heh
21:52 < fenn> i guess i could read over your linkdumps
21:53 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20080106164837/http://www.biophysik.physik.uni-muenchen.de/PlasticAFM//
21:54 < jebba> oh boy, that's quite the build setup for nanoengineer, heh.
21:54 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/AFM/
21:54 < kanzure> jebba: yeah.. it's crazy
21:54 < kanzure> oh crud. that papers/AFM/ link is bad
21:54 < kanzure> i thought it was the same as heybryan.org/papers/AFM/ where i had the stl files and links
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21:55 < kanzure> http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Project.html
21:55 < kanzure> crud geocities is dead
21:56 < fenn> so there seem to be a number of AFM projects already; why are they inadequate?
21:56 < kanzure> it's packaging, presentation, testing, documentation
21:56 < fenn> jurgen muller's looks pretty well documented at a first glance
21:57 < kanzure> http://www.nanotech-now.com/James-Logajan/stm.htm
21:57 < kanzure> well, we need skdb packages
21:57 < kanzure> jürgen müller's http://www.e-basteln.de/
21:59 < fenn> possibly over-documented
21:59 < fenn> haha
21:59 < kanzure> "# Budget – a fairly complete list of components and their costs, included for the benefit of those not easily bored by the other topics. The current total is approximately 2000 DM, or $1100 US. This includes all major STM components, HOPG graphite samples and PtIr tip wire. "
21:59 < fenn> has a multi page bibliography
21:59 < kanzure> collaboration seems like an ok idea if he's up for it
22:00 < kanzure> heh $1100 so my $2500 estimate was ok :D
22:00 < fenn> a significant portion of that is machined hunks of brass and "fine thread screws"
22:01 < kanzure> which.. isn't actually mandatory
22:01 < fenn> yeah, and the dsp too
22:01 < kanzure> jebba: there was one that was "mostly" 3D printed
22:01 < jebba> cool
22:01 < kanzure> so having a mostly-reprapped AFM would be really neat.
22:01 < jebba> i dont get this part of skdb:  a computer can write instructions specific to an end-user's inventory
22:01 < fenn> supposedly the brass helped with noise isolation
22:02 < kanzure> jebba: abstractly.. consider situations where there are two ways to do things, and you have only tools for doing it the first way ;)
22:02 < jebba> you mean just keeping count?
22:02 < jebba> ah ok ya
22:02 < fenn> jebba: its like printing on a laser printer, you don't have to manually set up the print job and do typesetting and postscript translation etc etc
22:02 < kanzure> oh god please no
22:02 < kanzure> i've wasted way too much time futzing with laser cutter settings
22:02 < kanzure> i should just calibrate once and be done with it (until i purposefuly fuck it up)
22:03 < fenn> oh i read the question wrong, sorry
22:03 < jebba> it seems you should check out the manufacturing stuff out there already for this that skdb is doing.  Or put another way, why not tie this into something like openerp that has tons of those issues built into it (afaict).
22:03 < fenn> i'm allergic to anything "enterprise"
22:03 < kanzure> because skdb isn't CRM
22:03 < jebba> crm is just one small part.
22:04 < jebba> just dont load the crm module.
22:04 < jebba> the inventory/BOM/manufacturing/master production schedule etc.... is the parts to use (in python!)
22:04 < kanzure> http://www.openerp.com/products/manufacturing
22:04 < kanzure> just looking at these screens.. it's really not what skdb is
22:04 < kanzure> none of these enterprise systems really implement things like package management..
22:05 < jebba> that's one screen of an order...
22:05 < fenn> yeah this is for running a manufacturing business with slaves
22:05 < jebba> they do with things like BoM though.
22:05 < kanzure> BoM is just a list and is easy :)
22:05 < fenn> no and no
22:05 < kanzure> "Compute schedulers. The scheduler is the heart of the ERP system in terms of planning. It organises manufacturing orders based on priorities (sub-products manufacturing, dates required, etc), launches purchase orders for missing components and assigns products in stock."
22:06 < kanzure> "The procurement order will schedule a proposal for automatic procurement for the product which needs replenishment. This procurement will start a task, either a purchase order form for the supplier, or a production order depending on the product's configuration."
22:06 < fenn> if you have a person to sit there and figure out how to *actually* acquire every item on the list, then sure it's "easy"
22:06 < fenn> but to have an unattended computer do it is much harder
22:06 < kanzure> fenn: realize where jebba is coming from.. he's starting up his aleph corp
22:06 < fenn> i have no idea what that means
22:06 < kanzure> he's building reprap kits
22:07 < fenn> i've seen jebba buying a bunch of 3d printers for unknown reasons
22:07 < jebba> fenn, well i looked at all the floss i could find for managing a project such as building a number of repraps (or similar) and openerp came out far on top.
22:07 < kanzure> jebba: we're not against "linux for a fablab" of course
22:07 < jebba> fenn,  i have 3 engineers (locally) working for me on repraps now (looking for more).
22:07 < kanzure> but erp is basically "take traditional papers and forms, and make them ELECTRONIC!"
22:08 < jebba> kanzure, ya, most of it is a bunch of horrible java shit.
22:08 < jebba> just download the code and ignore the marketing for a moment :P
22:08 < kanzure> i'm knee deep in java this month (android development BS)
22:09 < fenn> also why is everything in capital letters
22:09 < kanzure> jebba: what are you suggesting openerp be used for in skdb?
22:10  * fenn is cranky today
22:10 < jebba> well, i am trying to figure out what skdb would exactly do, if not do EDI (parts ordering) and such. I get the definition of the file format, but then what do you feed it to, if not something like openerp?
22:11 < jebba> and I think it even has logic built in to make decisions like "should i build a screw or buy one?"
22:11 < jebba> (ERP can in general, not 100% about openerp)
22:13 < kanzure> i'm sure each shop has their own custom setup for how they buy things and order parts
22:13 < kanzure> so sure.. if someone is using openerp, spitting out data to that system is certainly possible..
22:14 < kanzure> i like to think of a machine shop as a giant UNIX system only asking for human help whenever it can't do something computationally (like physical labor- we don't quite yet have the automatic-fab-in-a-box deployment...)
22:14 < jebba> actually, AFAICT EDI is somewhat of a standard. For instance fastenal says it will work with their system.
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22:15 < kanzure> you mean the b2b language, EDI?
22:15 < jebba> yes, afaict (havent implemented it) with openerp+edi+fastenal=auto parts ordering.  As one example.
22:15 < kanzure> yeah.. nobody exposes EDI over the web
22:15 < kanzure> basically the surest way is to just write scrapers on top of sparkfun/digikey/octopart/amazon api/whatever
22:16 < kanzure> fastenal does eh??
22:16 < kanzure> hrm
22:16 < kanzure> http://www.fastenal.com/web/aboutUs.ex?action=ECommerce
22:16 < kanzure> ebxml lol
22:16 < jebba> i'm not certain it is over the web, i just presumed that. But i did ask them specifically about it and they said it would work fine.
22:16 < jebba> They have a number of ways to do it (they claim)
22:17 < fenn> i think EDI is just another way of obscuring your lack of API
22:18 < kanzure> edi is old stuff, fenn
22:18 < jebba> either way, it is at least *ONE* way.
22:18 < jebba> perhaps there are more
22:18 < kanzure> jebba: i'm not too concerned about auto-ordering-of-parts.. again, web scrapers can implement this very easily, or amazon api, etc.
22:18 < fenn> i think it's a huge problem but not one that skdb can solve
22:19 < jebba> ok. well, that was just one part.
22:19 < jebba> I guess i just dont see what you do once you have  foo.skdb.  What do you feed it to?
22:19 < fenn> existing solutions to this problem generally leverage some network effects to pressure businesses into sending data to the service provider in the format they want to receive
22:20 < kanzure> jebba: that depends on your inventory and what's on /dev
22:20 < fenn> jebba: the idea is foo.skdb already contains all the necessary settings for your foo printer
22:21 < jebba> then you need all hardware to conform to .skdb ? hmm
22:21 < kanzure> /dev/cnc would be scheduled by some crond printer spool, etc. etc.
22:21 < kanzure> nah, you can generally convert stl to gcode for instance
22:21 < fenn> there's drivers for each control system
22:21 < kanzure> yeah.
22:21 < fenn> emc2 could be considered a driver
22:21 < fenn> gcode + sneakernet could be another
22:21 < jebba> so you have skdb-daemon sitting there, gets my_screw.skdb, says "that's for repsnapper" and sends it over there? something like that?
22:21 < kanzure> there's also manual labor parts of most tasks at this point.. i mean, it would be nice if everything could be 100% robotic, but a person does generally have to ferry parts from one machine to the next
22:22 < fenn> yes
22:22 < kanzure> jebba: yep. but in most cases it will probably be more complicated than that
22:22 < jebba> ok.
22:22 < jebba> i'll think about that model for awhile  :)
22:22 < fenn> we were talking about describing conversion programs in terms of what mime types they accepted as input and output/
22:23 < kanzure> 'conversion programs'? wait was this something i was talking about
22:23 < fenn> i'm not convinced that just mime type has enough descriptive power though
22:23 < fenn> yeah you wanted to do it for every program ever, based on getopt description
22:23 < fenn> i forget the name of the library, it wasn't commonly used
22:23 < kanzure> impressive memory sir..
22:24 < kanzure> gengetopt
22:24 < kanzure> in case you care.
22:24 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shell.html
22:24  * fenn was googling around for 'ggetopt' - close
22:25 < kanzure> anyway, there's no compiler yet for splitting up an skdb package to multiple devices or rendering human instructions
22:25 < kanzure> or choosing to order some parts and not others etc.
22:25 < kanzure> i do think that our current "package manager" in skdb.git is rather pathetic
22:25 < fenn> "look, she does nothing"
22:26 < kanzure> especially since we claim 1) dpkg/apt-get is not enough but 2) we currently even lack that much functionality..
22:27 < kanzure> jebba: have you seen the sudo make me a sandwich robot? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOkMz3kiS0
22:27  * jebba looks
22:28 < jebba> btw, these look to be the dependencies to build nanoengineer under fedora 14:
22:28 < jebba> qt-devel python-numarray python-numeric numpy PyOpenGL
22:28 < jebba> (or at least to get ./configure happy)
22:28 < kanzure> sort of.. the qt library that nanoengineer uses is super old
22:28 < kanzure> jebba: if you want notes on running/installing nanoengineer, see:
22:28 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/compile_nanoengineer
22:28 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/NE1InstallScriptFragment
22:29 < fenn> updating nanoengineer to a modern qt would be a good bounty
22:30 < kanzure> i haven't figured out the root of the problem actually
22:30 < kanzure> if i run it under python2.5, it works with a more modern qt version
22:30 < jebba> add hdf5-devel to that list
22:31 < jebba> ... Pyrex
22:31 < kanzure> yeah.. it's on the list
22:31 < kanzure> http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=NE1_Build_Requirements
22:31 < kanzure> http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=NE1_Build_and_Install
22:32 < kanzure> oops, only the second one
22:32 < kanzure> ack
22:32 < kanzure> i meant this:
22:32 < kanzure> http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Setting_up_an_NE1_Development_Environment_on_Linux
22:32 < jebba> ya. Those are all the debian names, these are the fedora ones
22:32 < kanzure> ok
22:33 < kanzure> if you want to see nanoengineer in action, check out the machine gallery:
22:33 < kanzure> http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50
22:34 < kanzure> or technologiclee's tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfXzTrwI3c&feature=related
22:34 < fenn> hahaha "hey is it illegal to offer my customers a 10% discount, if you cancel your order with makerbot?"
22:34 < jebba> the main.py in cad/src runs fine under F14 (where fine=it launches and looks ok at least).   The rest didnt compile though, barfing.
22:34 < kanzure> jebba: did you clone from diyhpl.us?
22:35 < jebba> yes
22:37 < jebba> kanzure, i'm getting the same RCSID_BENDS error that fitzim got here: http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-12-22.log         But his pastebin fix is gone :(
22:40 < kanzure> hmm that's weird. we committed his patches
22:41 < kanzure> jebba: line 1051 and 1052 should be commented out in sim/src/newtables.c
22:41 < jebba> ok
22:42 < kanzure> huh i forgot to commit that change
22:42 < kanzure> well.. probably because it's a stupid fix that doesn't actually solve the real problem
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23:04 < kanzure> hi keen_101
23:05 < kanzure> how goes your diybio arduino shield thingy
23:22 < keen_101> it's in stage "1"
23:22 < keen_101> LOL
23:23 < keen_101> kanzure, you think it's a good idea or not?
23:23 < kanzure> i'm half asleep and don't know what the idea is
23:23 < kanzure> some sort of logging shield?
23:24 < keen_101> yeah, just with an accurate RTC clock
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23:25 < keen_101> i don't know, maybe an accurate RTC clock isn't really needed.
23:26 < kanzure> no it's a good idea i think
23:26 < kanzure> plus we need more projects out in diybio like this
23:27 < keen_101> yeah. If nothing else, it stimulated development
23:27 < keen_101> *will stimulate
23:28 < keen_101> hopefully
23:41 < kanzure> oh btw,
23:42 < kanzure> jebba: i'll figure out arrangements soon if you're serious about injecting money into a well-packaged, open source AFM,
23:42 < kanzure> but i do want to point out that if you'd like i can make this tax deductible
23:42 < kanzure> via humanity+ (since it's a 501c3)
23:43 < fenn> probably the only thing humanity+ is good for
23:43 < kanzure> yep
23:43 < kanzure> tax deductible open source hardware development is sort of a double win
23:44 < kanzure> (if you have high taxes)
23:48 < kanzure> good night irc
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 12 00:00:10 2011