--- Log opened Sat Feb 12 00:00:10 2011
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01:36  * bkero wonders if he can deduct taxes for open source work
01:37 < Technicus> bkero: You might as well try.
01:38 < Technicus> Perhaps if you can verify that you contributed your work to a non profit organization it could be ligitamized.
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04:19 < Lukas_> Good morning
04:20 < Utopiah> "Three-dimensional printing from digital designs will transform manufacturing and allow more people to start making things " http://www.economist.com/node/18114221?story_id=18114221
04:29 < Lukas_> Looks like they are finally catching on
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06:35 < Lukas_> Good morning ThomaEgi
06:46 < ThomasEgi> mornin
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08:25 < uniqanomaly> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/10/arts/10innovative.html?_r=3&hpw
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08:46 < kanzure> "Ok, so i bought one of the datashields, and it should certainly come in handy. But, within the diybio community there is a need/push to get more open source hardware and tools. The data shield is an excellent idea for DIYscience, but for some people a more accurate RTC clock will probably be needed. Hence this project." http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=102020
08:47 < kanzure> manchester digital lab is starting up a diybio-manchester group (diybiomcr) http://madlab.org.uk/
08:47 < kanzure> e. chromi http://vimeo.com/19759432
08:48 < kanzure> cathal's ignite talk slides http://bit.ly/id6_CathalGarvey_slides
08:49 < kanzure> futurelabcamp hackathon nyc april 1-3rd http://futurelabcamp.com/
08:56 < kanzure> this is fascinating.. i heard about "dna sprays" for catching perpetrators but didn't know they'd actually go through with it
08:56 < kanzure> http://www.jantinewijnja.nl/2011/02/11/dna-spray-installed-in-my-neigborhood-amsterdam-west/
08:57 < uniqanomaly> http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW?1.0
08:57 < kanzure> uniqanomaly: i "signed" it
08:57 < kanzure> (but i don't know why)
08:57 < kanzure> look at the bottom
08:57 < uniqanomaly> oh ok
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09:09 < jebba> kanzure, if you're serious about it, think it can be done for that, and can line it up, go for it and I'll come through. But if it was more of a brainstorm, then maybe something else would be better to focus on.
09:10 < kanzure> yes i'm serious :)
09:10 < kanzure> so i'll line stuff up and ping you when that's ready i guess
09:27 < kanzure> "science papers should be like open source software" http://lemire.me/blog/archives/2011/02/11/taking-scientific-publishing-to-the-next-level/
09:28 < kanzure> cool box2d got a javascript port http://code.google.com/p/box2dweb/
09:30 < JayDugger> I wonder if that DNA spray will have much effect on crime rates or on successful prosecutions.
09:35 < JayDugger> jebba, your comment at 1110 had the context of the AFM / skdb discussions from http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-02-11.log?
09:35 < kanzure> JayDugger: not everyone has your same timezone.. there's no 11:10
09:36 < kanzure> oh you mean 22:10
09:36 < kanzure> but no, he wasn't talking about AFM at that point
09:38 < JayDugger> Fair enough.
09:38 < JayDugger> Do there now exist any tutorials for writing skdb packages?
09:39 < kanzure> there is one that i wrote back in 2009 on my hdd
09:39 < kanzure> but i'm hesitan to upload it while the package manager is so useless
09:39 < kanzure> *hesitant
09:39 < JayDugger> I admit a leading question.
09:40 < JayDugger> Building a book scanner lies at the top of my project stack.
09:40 < JayDugger> It occurs to me that writing an skdb package in the course of its construction would help advance skdb's usefulness.
09:40 < kanzure> right
09:41 < kanzure> have you seen the dremelfuge, screw, or lego packages yet?
09:41 < kanzure> for the time being skdb-get.py just grabs them from http://diyhpl.us/cgit/
09:41 < JayDugger> Not yet. Work & local weather has somewhat sucked these last two weeks.
09:43 < JayDugger> You suggest I study those packages, compare them with the spec, and use them as templates for a bookscanner package?
10:07 < kanzure> yeah if you're going to make a package.
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10:28 < kanzure> reprap stats http://blog.erikdebruijn.nl/archives/145-Self-replicating-devices-the-statistics.html
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11:00 < jebba> kanzure, i didnt check over that link thoroughly, but i think that's the same guy that wrote a master's thesis about this, which is worth reading
11:01 < jebba> ya, same guy. The PDF name (i have printout here):  "On the Viability of the Open Source Development model for the design of physical objects"
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11:08 < kanzure> yep, i read erik's thesis
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11:29 < kanzure> hi splicer_
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12:00 < kanzure> hi biotiny
12:01 < biotiny> hello kanzure
12:35 < kanzure> what's up? biotiny
12:40 < splicer_> hi kanzure
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12:43 < kanzure> does anyone remember the link to something abuot open science and someone promoting the idea of also publishing your code?
12:47 < Utopiah> http://stanford.edu/~vcs/Talks.html ?
12:48 < uniqanomaly> https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2011-02-03-sony.markdown this is funny
13:13 < kanzure> uniqanomaly: you're right, it is funny
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13:22 < fenn> new legal defense strategy, increase the number of urls to the point where the message size is so large it bounces from any sane email inbox
13:29 < kanzure> fenn: are you following the om thread?
13:29 < kanzure> windell's email is something i can easily make a response to (about gcode being allowed/not)
13:32 < kanzure> nvm the issues being brought up aren't interesting enough to bug you to look at it yet
13:38 < fenn> i didnt like that wording in the oshw document anyway (analogous to compiled computer code)
13:39 < fenn> i will probably just link to it instead of spelling everything out
13:40 < kanzure> i wonder if ayah will spam out the package specification document like her oshw definition document
13:41 < fenn> ayah?
13:43 < fenn> oh nice, a new yaml validator
13:43 < kanzure> from eyebeam/littlebits.. she's the one getting phillip torrone, limor fried, makezine, etc. to post shitloads of links to the document.
13:43 < kanzure> she and alicia gibbs (buglabs) put on openhardwaresummit.org
13:44 < kanzure> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/02/open-hardware-definition-1-0-released.html
13:44 < kanzure> http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2011/02/10/open-hardware-definition-1-0-released/
13:44 < kanzure> http://arduino.cc/blog/2011/02/10/open-source-hardware-definition-v-1-0-released/
13:44 < kanzure> http://community.buglabs.net/agibb/posts/221-Open-Hardware-Definition-1-
13:44 < kanzure> http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/02/11/009206/Open-Source-Hardware-Hits-10?
13:57 < fenn> says something about version 1.1 released already?
13:58 < fenn> oh, the free culture definition, nm
14:01 < kanzure> dunno if i told you but i'm going to be in your area on march 1 for a 'future of open source hardware' workshop i was invited to at institute for the future
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14:17 < kanzure> wow sourceforge.net no longer looks like spam
14:19 < jebba> oh my. It's like a relief just washed over me looking at it.
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14:27 < fenn> looks like a domain squatter page to me
14:35 < kanzure> compared to? http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080312003027/http://sourceforge.net/
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14:43 < fenn> yeah, old page had ads but the content was better
14:43 < fenn> new page is just a bunch of random project names with blue buttons, and a search box
14:44 < fenn> but whatever, nobody uses sf anymore
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14:54 < kanzure> stalk: Evan T. Jones <evan_t_jones@mac.com>
14:54 < kanzure> he claims to have a pyopenscad library.. just asked him what it actually does
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15:05 < fenn> another (?) pyopenscad.py http://www.thingiverse.com/download:3976
15:05 < fenn> did i mention i hate code generators
15:05 < kanzure> yeah.. this is dumb
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15:07 < kanzure> natasha is trying to edit http://humanityplus.org/parsons through frontpage 5
15:07 < kanzure> this is a disaster
15:08 < kanzure> (it's a wordpress installation)
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15:14 < fenn> it's too bad LSD doesn't actually increase neural plasticity
15:15 < fenn> otherwise you better believe i'd be dumping it in the water supply
15:15 < kanzure> she just needs to read up on modern web design..
15:18 < fenn> i'm still amazed by how little futurist thinking has changed since the 1980's
15:18 < fenn> like wow they actually got it right the first time?
15:19 < fenn> maybe it's just selection bias, i only remember the things that seem plausible
15:19 < mjr> fenn, hey, you can still do more experiments to doublecheck. Dump away!
15:29 < kanzure> god 17min on the phone to replace elements in a css file for her
15:30 < kanzure> fenn: i don't think they got it right.. i mean, anyone can make up fantastical technologies that fall within the realm of physical possibility
15:31 < kanzure> they told you about smartphones but then totally missed out on implementing them and the 2006/2007 boom
15:31 < kanzure> (and still don't really know about it)
15:32 < splicer_> didn't futurism use to be about space and robots... and now it's about biotech?
15:33 < kanzure> the "futurists from the 90s" didn't really focus on biotech
15:33 < kanzure> there's a huge disconnect between them and, say, synthetic biology
15:33 < splicer_> yes
15:34 < kanzure> open source was happening while extropy institute and foresight institute were at their prime,
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15:34 < kanzure> but again they missed out on that boom
15:34 < kanzure> (even though some of the people at the edges were peripherally involved)
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15:38 < kanzure> and most of them are missing out on garage biology.. biocurious is an anomaly because of joseph jackson's ties with futurists
15:44 < fenn> hum, i was just reading "the peace war" by vernor vinge which has a lot of open sourcy underground software development, and biotech
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15:48 < fenn> vinge is an EE so he explained more about the progress of electronics, internet, and intelligence augmentation
15:49 < fenn> the connotation was that the biotech guys could accomplish just as much if we didn't lock them all up first
15:50 < kanzure> i only sent that list of projects/pricetags to goertzel and patri, should i bother sending it to anyone else? it's really just a draft
15:51 < fenn> it's not a very complete draft
15:51 < kanzure> no
15:51 < fenn> i think it's worth keeping a file of 'things to fund' though
15:51 < kanzure> there is an advantage to sending things out sooner rather than later, though
15:51 < fenn> o rly
15:52 < fenn> not in marketing/self promotion
15:52 < fenn> unless you have a real deadline
15:52 < fenn> but what do i know
15:52 < kanzure> no not like that.. like sending this to natasha, vassar, todd
15:53 < kanzure> "unofficially" "for review"
16:01 < fenn> i remember thinking it was missing a lot
16:01 < kanzure> it is
16:01 < kanzure> feel free to list out more projects that need to happen
16:01 < kanzure> i didn't write down the myostatin-related-stuff for instance
16:02 < fenn> what was the url again?
16:02 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html
16:03 < kanzure> if you want to edit it:
16:03 < kanzure> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dTnxi08R4HxuAr2fI2_NG-sAmm0nBpEUXNt7pi089FU/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPvxtL8L
16:04 < fenn> one thing that would be really useful is a centralized database of nootropics, their purported effects and side effects, and various standardized tests of people on/off the drug
16:04 < kanzure> the numbers are stupid and can be removed/ignore
16:04 < kanzure> *ignored
16:04 < fenn> for example http://nootropicsdb.com  haha
16:04 < fenn> cept not a blog
16:06 < kanzure> i'm tempted to rewrite this document in yaml
16:06 < kanzure> is a good use case
16:07 < kanzure> especially with attributes like timeline, cost range, man hours, tags, description, title, "date most effective by", and dependencies
16:08 < fenn> yeah, a planning document for h+
16:08 < kanzure> "buy an executive director"
16:08 < kanzure> "go on a roadtrip"
16:08 < fenn> you could even put pretty web 2.0 skin on each entry
16:09 < kanzure> "hold more conferences with increasingly irrelevant content"
16:09 < fenn> "publish more articles with the same content"
16:09 < kanzure> "(be sure to forget to upload the videos)"
16:09 < fenn> no seriously, why not decompose the original hplus roadmap into achievable milestones like this?
16:09 < kanzure> yeah i agree
16:10 < kanzure> i proposed that to h+ btw, "to redo the transhumanist technical roadmap in a more professional manner"
16:10 < kanzure> that was what i was going to be doing january but got caught up with fixing hplusmagazine
16:10 < fenn> redo what?
16:10 < kanzure> well if you recall that awful mediawiki page that hplusroadmap was based on
16:10 < kanzure> "the transhumanist technical roadmap"
16:10 < fenn> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap  ?
16:11 < kanzure> yes
16:11 < fenn> why is your mediawiki still dead?
16:11 < kanzure> i'm making progress.. i got an external hdd enclosure to do some data recovery
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16:12 < kanzure> jmil: hey, if you were to get money for open source tissue printing, how much would you need and what for
16:13 < fenn> speaking of HDD's, please mail me tub's hard drive
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16:13 < kanzure> i knoooow
16:13 < jmil> kanzure: well, the tissue printing hardware is orders of magnitude less expensive than the cell culture...
16:13 < jmil> so it depends on the end goal of the grant call
16:13 < kanzure> $20k, $80k, $300k ?
16:13 < kanzure> haha no that's not how this works
16:14 < jmil> if it's just to demonstrate feasibility in vitro then it's a lot less than if you need evidence of in vivo organ replacement
16:14 < kanzure> you tell me what amazing things you need to do and then tell me how much it would cost
16:15 < jmil> i would need tissue printers. $20k would get you a sterile reprap and sterile hepa-filtered air flow setup for tissue fabrication
16:15 < jmil> then you need to make the material to encapsulate cells in
16:15 < jmil> we currently have the least expensive hydrogel material, which is ~$5/gram
16:16 < jmil> which can allow you to make degradable tissue for ~$50/mL
16:16 < jmil> so it depends on your target tissue volume
16:16 < jmil> then you have to do the tissue culture. The burn rate is typically $1,000 per week or so for consumables
16:16 < kanzure> i'm talking more in terms of "having an open, standard platform and improving on it"
16:16 < jmil> then you also have personnel costs.
16:17 < jmil> kanzure: we already have that with reprap =]
16:17 < kanzure> not really, your work is closed source at the moment
16:17 < kanzure> and once you publish it, iirc, you really just have an extruder?
16:18 < kanzure> there's lots of stuff to be done with some controllers, feedback, etc.
16:18 < jmil> like what? you don't really need feedback IMHO. you have to characterize cell viability soon after encapsulation anyway
16:18 < kanzure> fenn: for a revamped roadmap i was thinking of git + latex or some other document compiler
16:18 < jmil> git + latex FTW!!!!!!!!
16:19 < jmil> kanzure: reprap is an open platform. Those skilled in the art should be able to optimize it with current tools, controllers, etc. for things like what high-end tissue fabrication labs are doing simply by watching the posted youtube videos
16:20 < kanzure> jmil: i'm sorry, but schematics, files and documents are always useful
16:20 < kanzure> i am not trying to impose on you
16:20 < jmil> ya i'm just not sure what your end goal is. i'm trying to help...
16:21 < kanzure> standardized tissue printing platform on top of reprap, and throwing money at that sort of project to help that along
16:21 < jmil> as i've said before i really don't see direct cell printing as a viable strategy for human-scale organ replacement
16:21 < kanzure> yeah, probably not
16:21 < kanzure> but that's not my goal here really.
16:21 < jmil> kanzure: so then why do you want to fund that if it's a losing strategy?
16:21 < kanzure> tissue engineering isn't just about organ replacement
16:21 < jmil> ok, now we're getting somewhere
16:22 < jmil> so what's a simple, clear, focused target then?
16:22 < kanzure> organ replacement is nice but i dunno why you keep bringing it up.. unless you have some ideas on the cooker? :)
16:22 < jmil> 3D tissue culture, probably
16:22 < jmil> reprap for 3D tissue culture is a good idea
16:23 < jmil> but the other thing is a lot of the best materials people use for tissue culture are patented. so you can't really make those open source
16:23 < jmil> the gel carriers that encapsulate the cells
16:23 < kanzure> nah we can have that in escrow in a separate country
16:23 < jmil> lol
16:24 < jmil> what is your definition of "open source tissue printing" *exactly*?
16:24 < kanzure> tissueprinter.git with schematics, documentation, blueprints, cad files, controller code, relevant lab protocols
16:25 < kanzure> what milestones do you think would be useful to reach?
16:25 < kanzure> you know.. in your professional opinion :p
16:26 < jmil> i mean your definition of the final engineered construct
16:26 < jmil> it would have specific cell types deposited in specific locations?
16:26 < jmil> at some predetermined depositing resolution
16:27 < jmil> then you have to look at cell viability with some predetermined confidence interval, say 90%
16:27 < jmil> then you have to look at cell density. Because 1 million cells/mL is technically 3D tissue culture but it's not really dense enough cells for anything useful or interesting
16:28 < jmil> then you have to include a whole tissue culture setup with flow perfusion to keep the cells alive
16:28 < jmil> a tissue printer without instructions and protocols for keeping cells alive is essentially worthless
16:29 < jmil> and that will vary for each cell type, matrix type, and cell density probably
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16:29 < kanzure> specific deposition plus things like inducing stem cell differentiation in particular locations
16:30 < jmil> ya that's pretty standard fare
16:36 < jmil> kanzure: i found the link i was looking for. This one outlines the challenge very very well: http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/rfa-files/RFA-HL-11-025.html
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17:01 < fenn> the challenge is wading through all that red tape
17:02 < fenn> jmil: why do you think printing is not a viable route to human organ implantation?
17:03 < fenn> i don't see why it would be useful otherwise
17:06 < fenn> reprap wiki is 2.6GB? wtf
17:06 < kanzure> there's lots of files..
17:06 < kanzure> people use reprap.org mediawiki instead of code repos
17:07 < kanzure> reprap.org is really really itching to switch to gitduino but i've been lame with doing it in a timely manner
17:25 < jmil> fenn: tissue density is hundreds of millions of cells per mL
17:25 < jmil> tissue printers do 1 layer at a time
17:25 < jmil> the layers are 10 µm or so
17:25 < jmil> by the time you do the 20,000 layers to make the 1.5 L that is a human liver...
17:26 < jmil> the first 10-15,000 layers will probably be dead
17:26 < kanzure> stem cell differentiation seems to be a better strategy for growing a liver
17:26 < jmil> layer-by-layer is not the way to go IMHO. there are significant optimizations to be had, and they might get there eventually, but i think we will beat them
17:26 < fenn> first of all, why can't you parallelize the task
17:26 < fenn> secondly, why does the layer height have to be so small?
17:27 < jmil> kanzure: technically it is the only way as hepatocytes have never been grown up outside the body
17:27 < jmil> fenn: dunno, we don't try to do it. all i can tell you is it's been done more than 10 years ago and there's been essentially no progress since then
17:27 < fenn> also i read something about infusing a collagen pig liver "husk" with human liver cells, and it was a viable liver
17:27 < jmil> for 6 hours
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17:33 < jmil> fenn: there's definitely room for improvement in this area. we need more people outside the field to start helping with progress. it seems like the industry is really stagnating
17:34 < fenn> i didnt know there was an industry
17:35 < jmil> it's all private right now, but there's a lot of VC funding invested at the moment. not a lot or progress though.
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18:26 < kanzure> ian is doing https://github.com/kevinmehall/pyscad
18:26 < kanzure> "The basic idea is that we're using ctypes to directly modify the abstract syntax tree of OpenSCAD, allowing full python integration at a fairly low-level."
18:26 < kanzure> meh
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20:43 < kanzure> the dna spray thing just seems dirty in a way
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21:31 < kanzure> huh i don't even remember this
21:31 < kanzure> http://www.biopunk.org/the-biopunk-biogear-logo-t596.html
21:32 < kanzure> oh. because it was posted today.
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22:14 < uniqanomaly_> http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/7/7/acetaminophen-and-the-war-on-drugs.html insane
22:20 < uniqanomaly_> but nothing new
22:20 < uniqanomaly_> http://manu.sporny.org/2011/public-domain-genome/ ;]
22:20 < uniqanomaly_> + https://github.com/msporny/dna/pull/1  ;)
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22:29 < jmil> uniqanomaly_: omg, someone just forked that repo...
22:34 < uniqanomaly_> also did pull request
22:34 < uniqanomaly_> Commit: Stimulating effect of caffeine increased by 5%.
22:42 < uniqanomaly_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0AQ5TjsEIM&feature=feedu nice one
22:43 < uniqanomaly_> "Weiner Calls Out GOP For Violating Their Own Rules"
22:43 < uniqanomaly_> i'm on 30min and they don't fucking understand what guy is talking about
22:47 < uniqanomaly_> ... mumbling ... fucking .... mumbling ... meritocracy ... mumbling
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 13 00:00:10 2011