--- Log opened Sun Mar 27 00:00:10 2011 00:05 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-59-157-3.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nchaimov] 00:06 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-59-157-3.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:06 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-59-157-3.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-59-157-3.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:40 -!- strages [~strages@wifi.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:54 -!- drazak [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:55 -!- drazak [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:41 -!- alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279559041.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:09 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-90-230.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:13 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-78-8-90-230.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:56 -!- Lukas [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:42 -!- Lukas [44c29d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.194.157.4] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:59 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone. 08:59 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-79-43.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 09:31 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.6.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:16 -!- devrandom [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:45 -!- strages [~strages@c-71-207-215-204.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:50 -!- strages [~strages@c-71-207-215-204.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:53 -!- devrandom [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:57 -!- devrandom [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:06 -!- strages [~strages@wifi.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:12 < kanzure> ok.. now they want to give $20k for an open source dna synthesizer project 14:23 < jrayhawk> Who does? 14:24 < kanzure> h+ :/ 14:24 < kanzure> they decided not to do the scouter because fenn was too slow or something 14:33 -!- alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279559041.dsl.bell.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:08 < jrayhawk> hplus attempting to accomplish something useful seems like something you should encourage 15:09 < kanzure> yeah, i gave them a huge ilst of projects to pick from 15:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html 15:09 < kanzure> uh, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html 15:09 < jrayhawk> though, as usual, i suspect you'll be better off working with a non-profit run by people you can actually trust 15:09 < kanzure> yeah. 15:09 < kanzure> i don't really have time for all this bullshit anyway 15:10 < jrayhawk> a lot of this would actually be better as an open-source commercial outfit 15:10 < kanzure> yes 15:11 < kanzure> although, i'm not sure about upfront development 15:11 < kanzure> i.e. making a platfrom from nothing seems to be something that a non-profit could do 15:11 < kanzure> then a company to develop it further as a business 15:11 < kanzure> startups can't really handle the risk of working on a platform that nobody actually wants until it's completed [and even then, they might not want it] 15:14 < kanzure> or how did trolltech do it? 15:14 < jrayhawk> trolltech is not a paragon of anything except obnoxiousness 15:15 < jrayhawk> I assume you'd be working more on the scale of bdale garbee 15:15 < kanzure> of who? 15:15 < QuantumG> trolltech was aptly named 15:15 < QuantumG> they made their money by trolling anyone who used their software and had money 15:15 < jrayhawk> http://altusmetrum.org/ 15:16 < QuantumG> "hey, you have money, you have to pay to use our software" "yeah, ok little fly, here's your few thousand dollars per year to go away" 15:16 < kanzure> huh. 15:16 < kanzure> didn't know about them, jrayhawk 15:17 < kanzure> there's no.. buy button? 15:17 < jrayhawk> I guess they sortof did start off as a nonprofit in the form of PSAS 15:17 < kanzure> oh, that's another site wtf 15:18 < jrayhawk> http://auric.gag.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=56 15:18 < kanzure> anyway, my original statement stands 15:18 < kanzure> show me a company that was founded specifically to build a certain non-existing open source platform, and then did a business model on top of that later on 15:19 < kanzure> (or as they were making it) 15:19 < jrayhawk> I don't see bdale very often, but I can ask keithp if he any thoughts on the advantages and disadvantages of doing open source R&D under a non-profit umbrella and selling the resulting product commercially 15:19 < kanzure> well, "selling the resulting product commercially" is not the only way to do a business of course 15:19 < kanzure> services/contracting/other-stuff/etc. 15:20 < jrayhawk> As opposed to developing it commercially as well. 15:20 < kanzure> right 15:20 < kanzure> if you're going to ask for startup monies to "develop a technology, then release it as open source", you'll be laughed at 15:21 < kanzure> from a practical point of view, the company has no clue whether or not anyone would actually use their future platform 15:21 < jrayhawk> Well, you don't really need outside funding for some of this stuff 15:21 < kanzure> so investors have a right to laugh like that 15:21 < kanzure> well we're talking about hardware R&D presumably 15:21 < kanzure> resource requirements are somewhat higher 15:21 < jrayhawk> at least, not for the numbers you're talking about. $2,500 is not hard to come by. 15:21 < kanzure> ok sure 15:22 < kanzure> but that's because i know hackers/developers who are already in progress on a related project 15:22 < kanzure> and because they are undervalue their man-hour dollar value because they are subsidizing their time in exchange for doing open source dev on something they need/want/value, presumably 15:23 < jrayhawk> I guess it'd be best to discuss development model acceptableness with them instead. 15:23 < jrayhawk> meh. 15:24 < kanzure> oh if you're sending signals that you don't want to talk about this, i haven't picked up on that 15:24 < kanzure> say you have a giant R&D project.. like a space shuttle 15:24 < kanzure> starting a company to design and build an open source space shuttle, even 15:24 < QuantumG> and you're not in the US ;) 15:24 < kanzure> and your name is copenhagen suborbitals 15:25 < QuantumG> well, he says he's gunna put up his designs but he hasn't actually done it yet 15:25 < QuantumG> (as far as I know) 15:26 < kanzure> so say you need 10 people to design build and test it, for 2 years 15:26 < kanzure> you ask for $4M from an investor 15:27 < QuantumG> $200k per person/year .. but I guess you're gunna burn through materials and facilities too 15:27 < kanzure> right 15:27 < kanzure> so you face a few problems, just like any other company: 15:27 < kanzure> 1) you have no sales 15:27 < kanzure> 2) no revenue 15:28 < kanzure> 3) in this case, there's not really much of a market for space shuttles 15:28 < kanzure> so.. no market 15:28 < kanzure> 4) investors can't tank the company and sell the IP to liquidate the 'assets' 15:29 < QuantumG> you missed something 15:29 < kanzure> so it's perhaps an even larger gamble 15:29 < kanzure> than the normal gamble you make in dumping shitloads of cash on a startup 15:29 < kanzure> and the payoff seems to be about average? dunno 15:29 < QuantumG> one of the primary things first-round investors look for is what you're going to do that is going to attract the next round investors 15:30 < kanzure> i'm just rambling now; my original point was that it would be interesting to explore charities as the originating developer of giant platforms for tech 15:31 < kanzure> and that there's some benefit to having "lots of tech just laying around that any business can use to make THE FUTURE" 15:31 < kanzure> and that it's more like for open source hardware/R&D to get into business in that sort of way.. 15:31 < kanzure> but i've lost my train of thought and i'm grumpy because i haven't eaten. i'll bbl 16:29 < AaronBarr> hey sounds like you should start a hackerspace ;) 16:29 < AaronBarr> in space :O 16:35 < kanzure> the membership fees should be ONE MILLION DOLLARS 16:35 < kanzure> (per month) 16:36 < QuantumG> have I moaned to you about my local hackerspace lately? 16:37 < kanzure> cchs? 16:37 < QuantumG> ? 16:37 < kanzure> wrong australia 16:37 < QuantumG> it's the brisbane hackerspace. 16:37 < QuantumG> and while they all seem to be a bunch of nice guys, the space is just that.. space. 16:38 < QuantumG> there's some benches and some manual/small tools 16:38 < QuantumG> but nothing that you'd wanna pay $60/month to get access to. 16:41 < AaronBarr> right 16:41 < AaronBarr> well, there's more to it than that 16:41 < AaronBarr> im not part of the brisbane hackerspace, i started the local hackerspace in orlando, Florida 16:41 < AaronBarr> for a long while it was just that 16:42 < kanzure> just to reiterate, i don't think the "membership fees" business model is smart 16:42 < AaronBarr> but most of the people in florida already had most of these tools just sitting around 16:42 < kanzure> it should be a business that produces something or expands 16:42 < AaronBarr> kanzure: for most hackerspaces, the 'membership fees' is a way to ensure that the members matter to the organization 16:42 < AaronBarr> if it's 100% membership fee supported for critical services like rent, when the members no longer feel the lab is necessary, it dissolves 16:43 < AaronBarr> instead of living long past it's term and just wasting space like too many huge multinational conglomerate corporations 16:43 < AaronBarr> it doesnt need to expand 16:43 < AaronBarr> there just need to be more of them 16:44 < AaronBarr> people need to learn to incorporate in their own countries and municipalities 16:44 < AaronBarr> we're not cogs in the machinery, man 16:44 < kanzure> blah blah blah 16:44 < kanzure> membership fees suck, go to hell 16:44 < AaronBarr> i agree that membership fees for tools is a little unreasonable 16:45 < AaronBarr> but membership fees should be low 16:45 < AaronBarr> like $20 16:45 < AaronBarr> whatever people are willing to pay 16:46 < AaronBarr> i consider myself mostly socialist and don't see the need for money, but as long as money is going to exist, i want people to have it. so if i expect people are going to have money, i dont feel bad about asking them for $20 a month. and if they can't afford $20/mo, we help them find work to afford $20/mo 16:46 < kanzure> you're just justifying your business model 16:47 < AaronBarr> well you haven't entirely justified yours 16:47 < AaronBarr> 'businesses should be self sufficient' i believe it was 16:47 < kanzure> to avoid rent seeking? 16:48 < AaronBarr> it takes a lot to get people to feel like something is theirs. people are more likely to throw away something worth a lot of money if they got it for free. if they pay for it, at least they care that much. we want people to feel like the lab is actually theirs, just shared amongst other people 16:49 < AaronBarr> so, giving it away feels wrong 16:49 < AaronBarr> plus you're subservient to whoever is actually paying your rent 16:49 < AaronBarr> university, some company, stockholders, clients 16:49 < kanzure> are you tryign to explain why i should like your model 16:49 < AaronBarr> yep 16:49 < kanzure> ok. it's not working :p 16:49 < kanzure> i was trying to figure out what you're trying to do 16:50 < kanzure> if you want to just have an emo bath of people feeling like stuff is theirs, just go do a social program or something 16:50 < kanzure> hackerspaces aren't just knitting circles- this is machines, and tools 16:50 < kanzure> and building projects together instead of skyping our schematics to each other 16:50 < AaronBarr> QuantumG: the Hackerspace gives you a space and a force for communal buying power. if your space hasn't used that yet to raise funds for cool machinery you wanna get, try a kickstarter :) 16:51 < AaronBarr> QuantumG: I got to playing with Amazon FPS recently, and I think it'd be great to make a general equipment-buying Kickstarter for hackerspaces 16:51 < QuantumG> well that's the thing.. I think the membership fees are too high for what they've already got and there's no plans to group buy anything else 16:51 < AaronBarr> kanzure: I think you belittle knitting circles 16:51 < kanzure> i don't want a knitting circle 16:51 < kanzure> is my point 16:51 < AaronBarr> QuantumG: I guess that was our problem at FAMiLab until I started the Laser Cutter kickstarter 16:52 < QuantumG> yes, a knitting circle is basically what it is 16:52 < kanzure> with $60/mo membership fees ;) 16:52 < AaronBarr> our membership boomed after I dropped the dues to $20 and we got a laser cutter 16:53 < AaronBarr> kanzure: I know that you're comparing hackerspaces to other corporate models, because that's what you're used to 16:53 < QuantumG> yeah.. I try to tell my friends about the hackerspace and they're like "I don't get it" 16:53 < AaronBarr> but the interesting thing was that most of us who started them hadn't ever thought about incorporating 16:53 < AaronBarr> or starting any sort of company 16:53 < AaronBarr> or renting business properties 16:54 < AaronBarr> QuantumG: we had some people try to explain to us exactly what you're saying now, the dues are too high, you dont have anything worth coming in for, get some funding for better tools, and maybe ill come in 16:54 < AaronBarr> but we all work full-time jobs and can't afford to hire anybody with like 10 members at $60/mo when rent is $700 16:55 < AaronBarr> so whos gonna get us the funding? 16:55 < kanzure> "other corporate models" i think you're just not listening to me 16:56 < AaronBarr> kanzure: the membership-driven nonprofit business model has existed for a very long time and has been successful for some businesses 16:56 < QuantumG> the hackerspace needs to have profit making "drives" 16:57 < AaronBarr> it's not profit 16:57 < AaronBarr> if it's a nonprofit 16:57 < AaronBarr> its just capital 16:58 < QuantumG> find someone who is willing to pay for labor that the members could provide, and then ask the members to donate their time.. with all resulting funds going to the space 16:58 < AaronBarr> dude 16:58 < kanzure> non-profit memberships suck- i work for a few 501c3s and it's just awful 16:58 < AaronBarr> if you're paying $60/mo are you going to want to do extra work for some other asshole? 16:58 < AaronBarr> for free? 16:59 < QuantumG> who are you referring to as the asshole? 16:59 < AaronBarr> the client or the hackerspace member organizing the effort 16:59 < QuantumG> which? 16:59 < AaronBarr> members will see it as either 16:59 < QuantumG> the client obviously isn't an asshole.. he's willing to pay for amateur work over hiring professionals 17:00 < AaronBarr> a hackerspace isn't a labor force 17:00 < QuantumG> there isn't any identifiable person that is running our hackerspace.. it's a committee 17:00 < AaronBarr> i would upset, as a member, if the committee decided i was going to do work for some guy 17:00 < AaronBarr> and when they held sign-ups i wouldnt join 17:00 < AaronBarr> the work effort 17:01 < QuantumG> it's no different than a knitting circle having a bake sale 17:01 < AaronBarr> our members saw it differently 17:02 < AaronBarr> QuantumG: alls im saying is, you're not even a member, id just suggest telling your local hackerspace flat out that dues are too high and they should get funding for some serious equipment 17:03 < AaronBarr> there are good sources of funding for nonprofit organizations, especially because its all tax deductable 17:03 < AaronBarr> money is kind of free for nonprofits 17:03 < QuantumG> I'm not a member no.. 17:13 < AaronBarr> actually, looking at their lab, i dont see what you're bitching about 17:14 < AaronBarr> it's a good place to find work, honestly 17:14 < QuantumG> you talking to me? 17:14 < AaronBarr> and it's a little community you can contribute to 17:14 < AaronBarr> yeah 17:14 < AaronBarr> maybe its just not for you, an 17:14 < AaronBarr> man* 17:14 < AaronBarr> idunno 17:14 < QuantumG> what are you looking at? 17:14 < AaronBarr> http://hsbne.org/ 17:14 < AaronBarr> http://www.hsbne.org/about/the-space/bigpano_inside_space.jpg?attredirects=0 17:16 < QuantumG> so you'd pay $60/month for access to benches and screwdrivers? 17:17 < AaronBarr> maybe $3 17:17 < AaronBarr> $30* 17:17 < AaronBarr> but we put our lab on our resumes 17:17 < AaronBarr> and the last 3 job offers i got were through my lab 17:17 < AaronBarr> i went from $20k/yr to $40k/yr in 2010 17:18 < QuantumG> aint nothing like that happening here.. it's not a lab, it's a club house 17:18 < AaronBarr> at $50/mo, that was $600 i spent for a $20,000 raise in pay 17:19 < AaronBarr> could you do it better? 17:21 < QuantumG> I'm trying to understand how it could be done better... I imagine the probably is that there isn't an avalanche of hardware donations like there has been at other hackerspaces. 17:22 < QuantumG> s/probably/problem/ 17:23 < AaronBarr> yeah, we had a lot of equipment dropped off at our doorstep 17:23 < AaronBarr> with no expectations 17:23 < QuantumG> also, there's virtually no discussion in the group on how to increase membership.. or why members should even care about increasing membership 17:24 < AaronBarr> how many members are there? 17:24 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24 < QuantumG> I think there's mid 20s.. I've never seen more than 12 at a time 17:27 < AaronBarr> it gets cozy around 20 17:27 < AaronBarr> you can finally pay the bills 17:28 < QuantumG> yeah, they make rent and electricity ok 17:28 < AaronBarr> maybe its time for another space ;) 17:28 < QuantumG> I think it's time to make a purchase that will attract more members 17:29 < AaronBarr> do you have any particular items in mind 17:29 < QuantumG> sure :) a metal lathe or mill 17:30 < AaronBarr> i see they have a drill press 17:30 < AaronBarr> we have a few really great members at familab that helped us grow a reasonable set of tools 17:30 < QuantumG> I've seen one guy use it once... give up, use a hand drill 17:30 < QuantumG> it's in the corner, gathering dust 17:30 < AaronBarr> oh 17:30 < AaronBarr> drill presses are pretty cheap 17:30 < AaronBarr> $70 17:31 < QuantumG> yeah I know 17:31 < AaronBarr> we have a rule at familab that people can bring in their tools 17:31 < AaronBarr> we accept no responsibility if they break 17:31 < QuantumG> that's all people do at this hackerspace 17:31 < AaronBarr> but our membership is respectable enough that they stay in working order 17:31 < AaronBarr> bring in their own tools? 17:31 < QuantumG> they bring in their tools, do their own job, and take them away again 17:31 < AaronBarr> oh 17:31 < QuantumG> it's just a space to them. 17:32 < AaronBarr> well, yeah 17:32 < AaronBarr> at one level it's just a space 17:32 < AaronBarr> $60/mo for a workspace is actually cheap 17:32 < AaronBarr> industrial space is like $500/mo minumum 17:32 < QuantumG> indeed, it's cheaper than a storage shed. 17:32 < AaronBarr> yeah 17:32 < AaronBarr> nothing wrong with that 17:32 -!- devrandom [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:33 < AaronBarr> some people in our neck of the woods have really big machines they just need someplace to house 17:33 < QuantumG> I think one or two members actually joined with the idea that they could shove their shit in a corner and no-one would mind 17:33 < AaronBarr> so we let them keep them in our storage unit ;) 17:33 < AaronBarr> what kind of shit 17:34 < QuantumG> junk.. stuff that isn't of use to anyone.. although one guy said he's going to bring in a bunch of tools and store em there and we're all like "yes, yes do that" .. not sure if he's done it yet :) 17:35 < AaronBarr> thats a great idea 17:35 < AaronBarr> its hard to get used to 17:35 < AaronBarr> but honestly 17:35 < AaronBarr> if you arent making a lot of money off membership dues 17:35 < AaronBarr> the only place new tools are gonna come from are members 17:35 < AaronBarr> so we had to get used to the idea of buying $50 in tools like every week 17:36 < AaronBarr> i'll tell ya 17:36 < AaronBarr> my girlfriend was very glad to see some of my own stash go ;) 17:37 < QuantumG> yeah, I intend to buy a $500 water pump at the middle/end of the year.. I expect I'll be saying "I will donate this to the space so long as it doesn't leave the space" 17:37 < AaronBarr> what do you use a $500 water pump for?! 17:37 < QuantumG> pressure testing 17:38 < AaronBarr> i dont know anything about water pumps. that sounds cool. 17:38 < QuantumG> it's a hand pump.. you put a garden hose on one side and the tank you wanna test on the other side 17:39 < QuantumG> pump until you get the desired pressure (or until the tank bursts) 17:40 < AaronBarr> neat 17:40 < AaronBarr> maybe you could convince them to start a lower cost membership 17:40 < QuantumG> of course, the big problem with that idea is that the hackerspace doesn't have water :) 17:40 < AaronBarr> oh 17:40 < AaronBarr> right 17:44 < AaronBarr> yeah 17:44 < AaronBarr> getting hackerspaces to move is pretty hard 17:44 < AaronBarr> we need to move 17:44 < AaronBarr> but man, its hard 17:45 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.6.161] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:27 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51 -!- strages [~strages@wifi.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:02 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-59-157-3.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nchaimov] 19:04 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-59-157-3.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:06 -!- strages [~strages@c-71-207-215-204.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:18 < jrayhawk> hackerspaces should really decide beforehand whether to be based on a market economy or a gift economy and stick to it 19:24 < QuantumG> how do you base 'em on a market economy? 19:25 < kanzure> for aaron later; another model is the almighty incubator 19:29 * kanzure needs to work on the copy/text for hoppersdk.com 19:39 < pasky> jrayhawk: gift economy is awesome for the community, but then awesome members of the community think it would be great to do these awesome things for a living 19:55 < QuantumG> sometimes I'm sure I'm not talking to another human when I talk to my cow-orkers 19:56 < QuantumG> they seem to have to trouble modelling what the other person knows. 19:56 < QuantumG> me: what did you see? 19:56 < QuantumG> them: I saw the class had its flags. 19:56 < QuantumG> me: what flags? 19:56 < QuantumG> them: the flags its supposed to have. 19:57 < QuantumG> me: what ARE they? 19:57 < QuantumG> them: what they're supposed to be. 19:57 < QuantumG> me: what do you think they're supposed to be? 19:57 < QuantumG> them: 5 19:57 < QuantumG> me: they're supposed to be 6. 20:07 -!- strages [~strages@c-71-207-215-204.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:47 -!- devrandom [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:54 -!- jrabbit [~babyseal@unaffiliated/jrabbit] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56 -!- jrabbit [~babyseal@unaffiliated/jrabbit] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:57 -!- mayko [~mayko@71-22-217-151.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10 -!- mayko [~mayko@71-22-217-151.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:33 -!- mayko [~mayko@71-22-217-151.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45 -!- mayko [~mayko@71-22-217-151.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:35 -!- klafka1 [~textual@cpe-66-66-10-44.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Mon Mar 28 00:00:10 2011