--- Log opened Thu Jun 02 00:00:07 2011
00:54 < jrayhawk> it seems like it wouldn't be even slightly difficult for a major nation to swamp the tor network with nodes in order to map out hosts and users
00:58 < Utopiah> I think you'd much more than the majority of nodes to isolate users, sth prohibitive like >99% , also if governments are using them too, I doubt they'd want to disable it
01:01 < jrayhawk> That'd be true if what you were mapping only occured over one route; most of the things a major government would want to attack involve persistent identities that would be traversing multiple routes over time.
01:03 < Utopiah> but I think the point is that routing isn't predictable
01:03 < jrayhawk> Yes. That's the point.
01:06 < jrayhawk> If a government took over 50% of the nodes under a fair distribution, it'd have a 50% chance of being the first hop or last hop. If it's able to attach an identity to traffic traveling through it, then it can build up a record of routes that idenitity has gone through and find statistical outliers.
01:08 < Utopiah> I think end-to-end correlation is possible but one can also pick the preferred exit nodes
01:08 < Utopiah> plus ideally I think you also don't "exit"
01:08 < jrayhawk> Yes, thus 'last hop'
01:10 < jrayhawk> Anyway, the freenet model is a lot less broken than the tor model, but it's less convenient.
01:14 < Utopiah> if you have suggestion for each project they are present here on freenode :)
01:15  * Utopiah is wondering where he could get Physica A, Vol. 389 beside Elsevier fence
01:20 < jrayhawk> really it's more a suggestion that all these illegal-but-highly-public .onion sites should really be less highly public
01:22 < jrayhawk> Or alternatively arrange themselves to de-incentivize the use of perisistent identity or making timing attacks far more difficult.
01:23 < jrayhawk> anonymous SSL is great so long as you're using an extremely noisy protocol, but HTTP and IRC are not noisy and the end result of user activity over them usually has timestamps.
02:06 < fenn> i thought freenet was mostly about making sure that important info remained available
02:08 < fenn> easy enough to increase randomness of the data by compressing before encrypting
02:22 < jrayhawk> sometimes i wonder if trustwebs would be more popular if all the OpenPGP implementations weren't wretchedly unusable
02:24 < fenn> for most applications they don't need to be cryptographically secure, but still nobody uses the concept
02:24 < fenn> so i dont think pgp has anything to do with it
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02:27 < jrayhawk> automated trust attacks like what tor is vulnerable to would go away with even a token effort at trust verification
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06:38 < kanzure> http://skype-open-source.blogspot.com/
06:38 < kanzure> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6442887
06:41 < mjr> skype can rebreak the protocol though
06:47 < kanzure> not without breaking their older clients
06:51 < mjr> meh, forced upgrades are their friends
06:52 < mjr> they're so hell-bent on being closed I wouldn't actually be surprised if they had some tricks prebuilt just waiting to be deployed ;]
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07:45 < Utopiah> http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/06/adhd-linked-to-substance-abuse-risk/
07:46 < kanzure> so far this has been the best way i explain add vs. adhd:
07:46 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/add-vs-adhd.jpg
07:47 < kanzure> but that's not exactly a scientific study =)
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16:51 < ybit> hrm
16:52 < ybit> @ molecular nanotechnology/mechanosynthesis
16:53 < QuantumG> yep, still waiting for the experimental work to begin
16:59 < CryptoQuick>  why does it always have to be nanotechnology, couldn't some of us work towards something on a larger scale?
17:04 < QuantumG> I was thinking about how to do an adaptable pressure barrier with hexagonal segments last night.. macroscopic.
17:05 < ybit> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fKe4bk7AAw
17:05 < ybit> i'm curious how this works
17:06 < ybit> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1462887&dl=guide&coll=ACM
17:06  * ybit needs
17:07 < ybit> more info: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/st/storage/concept.html
17:07 < kanzure> ybit: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/
17:07 < kanzure> see also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/freitas_process/notes.txt
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17:08 < ybit> i don't see "true" nanotech taking off for years and year and years
17:09 < ybit> true, as in mechanically controlled nanotech
17:09 < kanzure> you should consider reading those links
17:09 < QuantumG> I don't even see it starting.. it's just Merkle and Freitas in a circle jerk right now.
17:09 < kanzure> QuantumG: well, plus their russian colleagues
17:10 < ybit> so it seems
17:10 < QuantumG> yeah.. writing lots of paper
17:10 < kanzure> doin' simulations
17:10 < kanzure> plus zyvex makin' stuff
17:10 < ybit> i talked with some, guy, berhane <lastname> who collaborated with those guys for this phd thesis
17:10 < QuantumG> yep, simulating stuff that they don't know how to build
17:10 < kanzure> QuantumG: actually, they generally do know how to build it
17:10 < ybit> ab-initio something something something
17:10 < kanzure> ab initio chemistry?
17:10 < ybit> i forget the name of the paper
17:10 < QuantumG> talking about how they might figure out how to build it if they were to actually start doing some experiments at some point.
17:11 < kanzure> QuantumG: in general, they know what to do
17:11 < ybit> QuantumG: er..
17:11 < kanzure> but they suffer from "we need more money syndrome"
17:11 < ybit> i've also spoken to phillip moriarty
17:11 < QuantumG> pfft.. they *think* they know what to do
17:11 < ybit> he's doing some actual work on this
17:11 < ybit> though he apparently doesn't think molecular manufacturing will ever happen
17:11 < kanzure> ribosomes are fake?
17:11 < ybit> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/philip-moriarty-discusses.html
17:12 < QuantumG> theoretical plans rarely dictate reality.. tinkering has made more things than deep thought ever will.
17:12 < kanzure> QuantumG: i think you're just trolling
17:12 < kanzure> and i also suspect you haven't looked at the literature
17:12 < kanzure> because i clearly do remember experiments..
17:12 < ybit> Question: So you are still a skeptic of the concept of molecular manufacturing?
17:12 < ybit> Answer: I am a skeptic. I believe that the concept of molecular manufacturing - of creating macroscopic objects atom by atom for any material, is flawed. I do not believe that this technique can be scaled-up to manufacture macrosized objects for arbitrary materials.
17:13 < ybit> Who knows, maybe some day though
17:13 < kanzure> ybit: of arbitrary materials?
17:13 < kanzure> most of freitas' stuff is about diamondoid mechanosynthesis
17:13 < kanzure> i.e., carbon
17:13 < QuantumG> kanzure: I'm not trolling.. and I've read everything they've written.
17:13 < kanzure> QuantumG: ok, then you know about their physical experiments
17:14 < ybit> "I’ve never been able to see why it is then claimed that these schemes are extendable to all other materials (or practically all elements in the periodic table)"
17:14 < kanzure> and you're mis-representing them because you feel lethargic or lied to?
17:14 < ybit> i've yet to read the debate he had with phoenix
17:14 < kanzure> ybit: carbon not enough for you right now?
17:14 < QuantumG> which physical experiments would these be?
17:14 < kanzure> QuantumG: mostly the ones with AFMs and UHVs
17:14 < ybit> i keep swaying back and forth between synbio and mol.nanotech
17:15 < kanzure> swaying?
17:15 < ybit> yeah
17:15 < kanzure> are you trying to figure out which one to be excited about?
17:15 < ybit> not sure which to pursue, i have limited time and limited gray goo
17:15 < kanzure> how about both
17:16 < ybit> limited gray goo problem
17:16 < kanzure> how about you fix that
17:16 < ybit> i'll be dead by the time i do
17:16  * ybit imagines people and hissing and throwing stuff at him
17:16 < kanzure> attitude, dude, attitude
17:16 < ybit> s/and//
17:17 < kanzure> if you want to give up you might as well leave
17:17 < ybit> meh, i haven't given up
17:17 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
17:17 < ybit> are you about to kick me? ...
17:18 < QuantumG> paranoid much
17:18 < ybit> that's the only reason for going +o
17:19 < QuantumG> nah, I prefer to remain +o at all times
17:19 < ybit> i like the feeling of no +o unless needed
17:21 < fenn> so it turns out modafinil actually does make you rabidly do stuff
17:21 < fenn> it just probably isnt the thing you decided to do beforehand
17:21 < QuantumG> heh
17:21 < ybit> sounds more like my exp with ritalin
17:21 < QuantumG> I thought ritalin was the opposite
17:21 < fenn> also it seems to last at least a day afterward
17:22 < ybit> did you have problems sleeping?
17:22 < fenn> ritalin is prescribed for adhd because it makes you focus
17:22 < ybit> bullshit
17:22 < ybit> (that it makes you focus)
17:22 < fenn> well, that's what they say. i've never tried it
17:23 < fenn> i went to sleep pretty late, but my cycle's sorta fucked atm anyway. but i slept 8 hours and felt rested upon waking
17:23 < QuantumG> yeah, I heard ritalin is supposed to make you less impulsive
17:23 < ybit> then again, it may work for others i suppose, a friend of mine is on 60+mg, i can't hanle more than 15mg/day
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17:24 < kanzure> there's something mildly amusing reading patri friedman talk about bitcoins and economics on the net
17:24 < fenn> why's that? sounds perfectly apropos
17:24 < kanzure> well i didn't know who this guy was, until i read the username and it's patri
17:25 < fenn> more evidence for the shrinking universe theory!
17:25 < QuantumG> url?
17:25 < kanzure> QuantumG: i'd rather not paste this url
17:25 < kanzure> it's a bad link
17:25 < kanzure> and a waste of time
17:25 < fenn> is it an onion?
17:25 < kanzure> no it's quora wankery
17:26 < kanzure> so you've finally tried modafinil?
17:27 < fenn> why "finally"?
17:27 < kanzure> i've been pushing drugs on you forever haven't i?
17:27 < fenn> yeah but you've been pushing amphetamines
17:28 < kanzure> *shrug* tomato tomato
17:28 < fenn> i don't think that's a very good introduction to experimental subjective neuroscience
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17:29 < fenn> hum i guess i did try piracetam a long time ago, but since nobody knew how it worked it didn't really help me understand what words like 'serotonin' or 'dopamine' actually meant
17:29 < kanzure> "it works by increasing dopamine in the brain!" is a bullshit explanation for just about any drug imaginable
17:30 < kanzure> oh even better is when they say "increases dopamine levels"
17:30 < kanzure> gotta add 'levels'
17:31 < fenn> i thought this had a pretty good explanation of how it works http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amisulpride
17:31 < kanzure> oh shit, dissociation constants
17:31 < kanzure> things just got technical
17:31 < fenn> "doses in the 50 to 200 mg range preferentially block inhibitory pre-synaptic autoreceptors. This results in a facilitation of dopamine activity"
17:31 < kanzure> for adderall it's much less specific
17:32 < kanzure> yeah, that's way more specific than what i usually dig up
17:32 < fenn> "[ritalin] increases the levels of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain through reuptake inhibition of the monoamine transporters. "
17:33 < fenn> i guess that means its just floating around in the synaptic cleft
17:33 < kanzure> well iirc that means it's more like a
17:34 < kanzure> what is the name for a molecule that modifies the function of a primary molecule?
17:34 < fenn> narcolepsy!
17:34 < fenn> they must pump those people so full of stuff they can't think straight
17:34 < kanzure> for instance, in many cases hydrogen is used as a way to change the conformational structure of a protein
17:34 < fenn> uh. hydrogen?
17:34 < fenn> you mean a functional group?
17:34 < fenn> like methylation or phosphorylation
17:34 < kanzure> no something more vague
17:35 < kanzure> it doesn't matter. i'll think of the word eventually.
17:35 < fenn> my 10-second take on it is that ritalin just gets jammed in the reuptake transporters and thus you need less dopamine to trigger the receiving neuron
17:36 < kanzure> "tudies have shown that in select regions, amphetamine increases the concentrations of dopamine in the synaptic cleft, thereby heightening the response of the post-synaptic neuron"
17:36 < kanzure> that's not an explanation.. that's a correlation
17:37 < kanzure> (the quote, not your 10-second take)
17:37 < kanzure> but yes that's generally the consensus fenn
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17:37 < kanzure> "One theory emphasizes amphetamine’s actions on the vesicular level, increasing concentrations of dopamine in the cytosol of the pre-synaptic neuron.[24][27] The other focuses on the role of the dopamine transporter DAT, and proposes that amphetamine may interact with DAT to induce reverse transport of dopamine from the presynaptic neuron into the synaptic cleft."
17:38 < fenn> can't they just make DAT knockout mice and see if it does anything?
17:38 < kanzure> WHAT? DO ACTUAL WORK?
17:39 < fenn> well it's not like they're going to take their own medicine
17:40 < kanzure> membrane proteins like DAT are easy to study once you have your mice engineered (microdialysis/typical neurophysiology)
17:42 < fenn> lulz "[ritalin's] pharmacological effect on the central nervous system is almost identical to that of cocaine. Studies have shown that the two drugs are nearly indistinguishable when administered intravenously to cocaine addicts."
17:42 < fenn> i wonder how many suburban parents know that
17:44 < fenn> "Professor John Harris, an expert in bioethics has said that it would be unethical to stop healthy people taking the drug. He also argues that it would be "not rational" (i.e. irrational) and against human enhancement to not use the drug to improve people's cognitive abilities."
17:45 < kanzure> i wonder what that irrationality argument is
17:45 < QuantumG> or antirational
17:46 < fenn> it's sort of like the anti-nuclear-reactor argument.. there's nothing wrong with the nuclear reactor itself, it's what you MIGHT do with the ingredients
17:46 < QuantumG> as John Gilmore once said.. it's not drugs that are illegal, it's altering your mind.
17:47 < fenn> heh
17:47 < fenn> yes we need a few constitutional amendements guaranteeing freedom of thought and freedom of self-modification
17:48 < fenn> considering obama is the most liberal president in the last 50 years i think we have a ways to go
17:49 < fenn> (i voted for kucinich)
17:49 < kanzure> i voted for morbo
18:00 < jebba> gary johnson!  :)
18:01 < kanzure> jack johnson vs. john jackson
18:02 < fenn> jebba: drug reform because it's too expensive to arrest people achieves the desired result for the wrong reason
18:05 < jebba> fenn, there's also, uh, convincing people to accept the change...  The "you have a right to your body" will leave us with a drug war for another 50 years.  "Drug war is total failure" convinces more people.
18:06 < kanzure> what is your role with gary
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18:07 < jebba> No role other than supporter. Though i talk/email with them a bit. He called me for a 3 minute conversation recently.
18:07 < jebba> Plus i saw him in Denver when he was here month+ ago and  I went out to NH for the announcement.
18:07 < jebba> http://desktop.alephobjects.com/~jebba/gj/announcement/
18:09 < fenn> what's the point of a dual PD/BY-SA license?
18:09 < fenn> can't whoever just take the PD thing and slap whatever license (like BY-SA) on it?
18:10 < jebba> fenn: Well, just in case anyone wanted it under that, they can just take it as BY-SA. There is a bit of grey area about putting things in PD, so I just did both.
18:10 < jebba> btw, the robot factory is coming alive!  http://www.alephobjects.com/photos/hq/
18:10 < fenn> white .. everything
18:12 < fenn> looks like you won't be running out of stepper drivers for a while
18:15 < jebba> haha
18:15 < jebba> Our goal is 16 prusas this quarter.... (which ends RSN!)
18:16 < fenn> how many machines do you have printing currently?
18:16 < fenn> i mean functional
18:17 < jebba> Here we have 4 prusas, we have 1 prusa out at someone's house, a cupcake, a ToM (that hasnt printed much as the guy who had it just sat on it), a shapercube that is mostly retired, a huxley.
18:18 < jebba> We really only use the prusas now and are working on more of them.
18:19 < fenn> yeah prusa is a good design
18:20 < jebba> the huxleys we had didnt work well (only got one of them to ever print) and the shapercube (version 1) was hard to get going. The makerbots were nice. I used the cupcake quite a bit for awhile. But now all focus is on prusas.
18:20 < fenn> you use the arcol derived nozzle?
18:21 < jebba> On the latest one we have a pure budaschnozzle (arcol derivative). We have a hybrid on another. And parts for 15 more budaschnozzles:  http://www.alephobjects.com/photos/hotends/budaschnozzle/0.3/
18:22 < jebba> http://www.alephobjects.com/budaschnozzle/    code/schematics/etc/GPLv3
18:22 < jebba> Arcol's hotend was CC-non-commercial, non-derivative so I had an engineer redo it based on the physical object and draw up fresh files.
18:22 < jebba> Though he's done a few mods to it as well (is shorter for one, slightly increasing Z, for example)
18:23 < fenn> you should put up a link to the nozzle on your page, maybe even an image
18:24 < jebba> ya, will re-vamp that whole thing  ;)
18:24 < jebba> we'll have a shop running in august.
18:30 < fenn> i like the "made in usa" wiring :)
18:31 < fenn> http://www.alephobjects.com/photos/hotends/budaschnozzle/0.3/parts/DSC_0540-1024.html
18:31 < fenn> also, the actual nozzle is a thing of beauty http://www.alephobjects.com/photos/hotends/budaschnozzle/0.3/parts/DSC_0536-1024.html
18:34 < fenn> cool brain visualization http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YFG5OnDp-Y
18:45 < fenn> hm. all the google image search results for diffusion tensor imaging are of brains
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18:50 < kanzure> heh http://lulzsecurity.com/releases/
18:50 < ybit> synbio products of relevance to rocketry, go
18:51 < ybit> i can't think of any atm
18:51 < kanzure> how about you go ask john cumbers
18:51 < kanzure> it's his fucking job
18:52 < kanzure> oh shit http://lulzsecurity.com/releases/Sony_Pictures_International_DELBOCA_USERS.txt
18:53 < ybit> i watched some vids from the synbio conf at nasa ames
18:53 < ybit> didn't see much related to rocketry
18:53 < fenn> bio != rocketry
18:53 < fenn> except for bombardier beetles
18:54 < QuantumG> ybit: make a bug that can purify h2o2
18:56 < fenn> kanzure: so that upload trick is pretty common cracking technique eh
18:56 < kanzure> fenn: which one?
18:57 < kanzure> the lulzsec links are about a recent sql injection attack on sony
18:57 < ybit> why doesn't the wikipedia article on bioinorganic chemistry mention other aspects like deposition of silica and other minerals to make structures? :\
18:57 < fenn> yeah, there was some kind of photo upload page they exploited
18:57 < kanzure> sql injection is pretty common.. any time i see numbers in a url i try a few possible injections
18:57 < kanzure> even better when it's something so obviously crackable
18:58 < kanzure> imageviewer.php?file=../images/1.jpg
18:58 < fenn> i guess i dont understand what's special about this url http://www.sonypictures.com/homevideo/ghostbusters/photoupload/view.php?id=12838
18:58 < kanzure> is that it?
18:59 < fenn> "this is its SQLi hole;"
18:59 < kanzure> "the page you requested was not found"
18:59 < kanzure> looks like sony took it down
18:59 < kanzure> yeah, so think of how they are getting the data from the db
18:59 < kanzure> SELECT (whatever) FROM photos WHERE id='$id'
18:59 < kanzure> id=12838
19:00 < kanzure> id=12838' UNION SELECT (username, password) FROM users WHERE 1='1
19:01 < kanzure> see pm
19:03 < kanzure> so yeah
19:03 < kanzure> that's the basic structure of an sql injection attack
19:03 < kanzure> but that's not what i was using the other day.
19:04 < kanzure> http://www.justanotherhacker.com/2011/05/htaccess-based-attacks.html
19:05 < kanzure> ah cool a tutorial now :P http://www.justanotherhacker.com/projects/htshells/tutorial.html
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21:49 < kanzure> "We are interested in buying from you, Can you supply us in good time? Please view our list of company order online and reply us as soon as you can. click on or go to  http://gooemail.mail3.de   sigin to your gmail to view or find our company urgent request"
21:57 < fenn> can anyone explain wtf these glasses are actually doing? (if anything) http://www.gunnars.com/technology/indoor.php
22:15 < kanzure> it's using "revolutionary innovations"!
22:21 < kanzure> hipstervision?
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 03 00:00:07 2011