--- Log opened Sun Aug 14 00:00:23 2011
00:01 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
00:01 < klafka> hey
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00:07 < JayDugger> Anyone hereabouts familiar with Parpas America CNC milling machines?
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07:31 < JayDugger1> ls
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08:37 < kanzure> delinquentme: do you need a shell
08:37 < kanzure> you keep logging in/out but that's not normal..
08:37 < delinquentme> its just when my comp is on =]
08:37 < delinquentme> got a recommend into halcyon !
08:37 < kanzure> yes i know it's hwne your computer is on
08:38 < kanzure> but instead of filling our screens with login/logout you can stay connected all the time
08:38 < kanzure> and just log into your shell/server when you want to see what's up
08:38 < kanzure> (that's how i do it)
08:38 < delinquentme> awesome. thanks for the offer.. du just have spare comps laying around?
08:39 < kanzure> yes if you send me your public key i will set something up for you
08:42 < kanzure> D/PhoneGapLog(  186): file:///android_asset/www/js/lecturer.js: Line 928 : TypeError: Result of expression 'response' [undefined] is not an object.
08:42 < kanzure> D/PhoneGapLog(  186): file:///android_asset/www/js/lecturer.js: Line 928 : TypeError: Result of expression 'response' [undefined] is not an object.
08:42 < kanzure> D/PhoneGapLog(  186): file:///android_asset/www/js/lecturer.js: Line 928 : TypeError: Result of expression 'response' [undefined] is not an object.
08:42 < kanzure> D/PhoneGapLog(  186): file:///android_asset/www/js/lecturer.js: Line 928 : TypeError: Result of expression 'response' [undefined] is not an object.
08:42 < kanzure> blahhh
08:44 < Utopiah> Hacking DNA, Compiling code for living systems http://media.ccc.de/browse/conferences/camp2011/cccamp11-4472-the_blackbox_in_your_phone-en.html (weird URL but working)
08:44 < Utopiah> (by Marc Juul)
08:44 < kanzure> i need to come up with a talk for singapore in a few weeks
08:44 < kanzure> denisa kera has been kind enough to organize Things
08:54 < delinquentme> a nucleic acid is a set of nucleotides .. correct?
09:00 < kanzure> no a nucleic acid is a nucleotide with some extra groups
09:02 < gedankenstuecke> kanzure: not really, iirc can a single chromosome be seen as a single nucleic acid
09:02 < gedankenstuecke> so a nucleic acid just consists of n nucleotides
09:02 < kanzure> eh..
09:05 < delinquentme> yeah after googling a bit
09:05 < delinquentme> DNA is a nucleic acid
09:05 < kanzure> maybe i meant nucleoside
09:05 < delinquentme> aka the amino acids of which there are 20
09:06 < delinquentme> which is a 3-length nucleotide
09:06 < delinquentme> erm
09:06 < delinquentme> length OF 3 nucleotides
09:06 < gedankenstuecke> kanzure: right, those are basically the nucleotides without the phosphate
09:06 < delinquentme> http://lectures.molgen.mpg.de/Biol/Intro/index.html
09:06 < gedankenstuecke> delinquentme: nucleic acid != amino acid ;)
09:08 < delinquentme> no!? ok
09:08 < delinquentme> no wait wait
09:08 < delinquentme> nucleoside
09:08 < gedankenstuecke> nucleic acids consist of a bunch of nucleotides. nucleotides are nucleosides + phosphate
09:09 < gedankenstuecke> living organisms tend to use those nucleotides to create amino acids using the genetic code. a sequence of 3 nucleotides codes for one amino acid
09:10 < delinquentme> waaaaiit i thought a nucleotide was just one of your BPs
09:10 < delinquentme> but infact a nucleotide is that BP + its phosphate backbone?
09:10 < gedankenstuecke> a nucleotide is a single base including the sugar and the phosphate that create the backbone of dna
09:11 < delinquentme> i seeee
09:11 < delinquentme> so the 2 complementary nucleotides form a ________
09:12 < gedankenstuecke> basepair
09:12 < delinquentme> damn
09:12 < delinquentme> ive always through that be BP is JUST the AT or CG
09:12 < delinquentme> but it includes the backbone?  are these commonly left out things?
09:13 < kanzure> you should go look at some molecular diagrams of dna
09:13 < delinquentme> yeah im looking at it atm :D
09:13 < delinquentme> awesome gif on wiki
09:14 < gedankenstuecke> the base itself is the part of the molecule that encodes the information, but you need the sugar/phosphate to create a poly-nucleotide
09:14 < delinquentme> im just wondering if basepair is used interchangeably to refer to both the AT and CG .. with or without its sugar phosphate backbone
09:15 < gedankenstuecke> well, depends on which level you are working i'd guess
09:16 < delinquentme> hmm ... http://www.rayandterry.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=COQ10 anyone?
09:16 < delinquentme> anyone dose up on this on the daily?
09:16 < gedankenstuecke> as long as you are only interested in the information stored in the nucleic acid you don't care about the backbone as it's all the same and boring. ;)
09:17 < delinquentme> makes sense
09:18 < gedankenstuecke> but the real, molecular basepairs (iirc) always include the backbone
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10:52 < kanzure> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/paper/more.html
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10:56 < jrayhawk> "Now that I have Gmail Paper, I understand the difference between labels and folders. I had one message with two labels, but when I tried to stick the paper version into two filing cabinets at the same time, it just wouldn't go."
11:02 < kanzure> i was hoping this was a real thing so that i could get a huge box of my email :)
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11:02 < kanzure> i bet i could find some online service to print out documents for me
11:02 < kanzure> "you want to ship .. how many boxes? what?"
11:02 < kanzure> actually, that might be an interesting service for end-of-life maintenance of accounts
11:03 < kanzure> i.e. dad flopped over dead.. time to print his correspondence / back it up
11:07 < kanzure> i'm not proud of saying that
11:22 < kanzure> "In contrast to Python, in Ruby all instance member variables are private." i wonder why i have never run into this before
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12:13 < delinquentme> instance variables are private?
12:13 < delinquentme> ummm within that file you mean?
12:14 < delinquentme> actually im not sure.. thinking about it im pretty sure i've seen instance vars being used within the same file .. @instance_var  .. each within its own method
12:14 < delinquentme> so yeah i guess thats right
12:14 < kanzure> i'm sorta surprised but ok
12:39 < delinquentme> try it out
12:40 < delinquentme> ( the asshole answer )
13:29 < kanzure> http://wiki.openhardware.org when did this happen
13:29 < kanzure> http://wiki.openhardware.org/Catalog
13:29 < kanzure> bruce perens should know better :(
13:29 < kanzure> http://wiki.openhardware.org/Project:How_to_Create_Content_for_the_Open_Hardware_Catalog
13:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what do i do
13:30 < kanzure> if he was proposing this for debian they'd take him out and shoot him
13:56 < kanzure> someone should port all of the zotero scrapers (for firefox/js) into phantomjs/pjscrape
13:57 < kanzure> (the elsevier scrapers)
13:59 < jrayhawk> What is he proposing? I only see the open source hardware definition and a catalogue of projects meeting that definition.
13:59 < kanzure> i don't think a wiki-database of projects is optimal?
14:00 < jrayhawk> It's not a packaging standard, certainly, but I don't really see a problem with its existence?
14:00 < jrayhawk> I mean, not only is it not a packaging standard, it doesn't appear to even be trying to be a packaging standard.
14:00 < kanzure> i guess i just expect better from him
14:00 < kanzure> i think it is a packaging standard though.. what else could it be
14:00 < jrayhawk> I don't see any semblence of packaging.
14:00 < jrayhawk> It's just a bunch of metadata and hyperlinks.
14:01 < kanzure> well, it's metadata about projects and possibly the files (maybe by uri reference)
14:01 < kanzure> in plain text
14:01 < kanzure> unparsed
14:01 < kanzure> yeah i'm probably over-reacting
14:01 < kanzure> again i just don't see the long-term strategy goin' on there..
14:02 < kanzure> if he wants to really contribute... erhm.
14:02 < jrayhawk> uh, well, the point of openhardware.org is to advocate for open hardware
14:03 < jrayhawk> to that end, they define what that means, give a list of acceptable licenses, give a list of unacceptable licenses, and give a list of projects using acceptable licenses.
14:03 < kanzure> a list of projects can be a text file
14:03 < kanzure> maybe with fancy css markup
14:04 < jrayhawk> If he were attempting to make a packaging standard, then, yes, I expect he would have more formalized metadata structures.
14:04 < jrayhawk> He is not.
14:04 < jrayhawk> That's an enormous project and he is a busy man.
14:04 < kanzure> yeah so i really really don't understand manual labor
14:04 < kanzure> like, me reading through all of the projcts that could be potentially listed here is *manual labor*
14:05 < jrayhawk> Crowdsourcing appears to be his approach.
14:05 < kanzure> what is the advantage of a wiki over ..
14:05 < kanzure> ok
14:05 < jrayhawk> ha ha i just used a terrible catchphrase for public collaboration
14:05 < jrayhawk> i feel dirty
14:06 < kanzure> that's because this is an awful implementation of public collaboration.. "let's use a custom version control system and an unparsable syntax plsu lots and lots of php to do this! yehaw crowdsourcing"
14:06 < klafka> LOL
14:07 < jrayhawk> haha, so you're just bitter that the data is cumbersome to get at
14:07 < kanzure> it marginalizes my contributions by making them less effective at their goals
14:07 < kanzure> yes and it's a waste of time
14:07 < kanzure> if the problem is that nobody is contributing, that's because you have no community
14:07 < jrayhawk> I don't think he cares that much, is the thing.
14:08 < kanzure> (this is partly why i don't spend all of my time writing wikipedia articles)
14:08 < kanzure> that might be true- i think he has recently increased his care for open source hardware related subjects
14:08 < kanzure> he mentioned something to me about .. uh.. one of his legal battles ending so that he could free up some of his time toward this?
14:08 < kanzure> i'm not really on the in-loop with him :/
14:09 < jrayhawk> But, I mean, that data is fairly secondary to his primary purpose (the OSHD). Obviously it's deeply important to your primary purpose (SKDB).
14:10 < jrayhawk> You could start building your repository with proper formalized and accessible metadata and have him just point at that
14:10 < jrayhawk> Though beats me if he'll want to.
14:11 < kanzure> bruce isn't thoroughly involved with OSHD :/
14:11 < kanzure> the guys behind OSHD (eyebeam.org) kinda marginalize everyone else
14:11 < kanzure> i mean he's tried to pop in but he's been mostly rejected
14:11 < kanzure> it's kinda absurd
14:11 < kanzure> wait, i'm sorry
14:11 < kanzure> oshd isn't eyebeam
14:12 < jrayhawk> oh, i guess it's "OSHWD"
14:12 < jrayhawk> whatever
14:13 < kanzure> freedomdefined.org is benjamin hill
14:13 < kanzure> so we know him..
14:13 < kanzure> uhrm..
14:14 < jrayhawk> Anyway, Perens has a long history of attempting to lead without buy-in from those he leads and being unconstructively brittle about dealing with the fallout, and a lot of people are just not interested in working with him.
14:14 < kanzure> yep that's right
14:14 < kanzure> http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=OSHW&oldid=7970
14:14 < kanzure> "This definition originated with discussion between attendees of the Opening Hardware workshop at Eyebeam (New York City), March 17, 2010, in particular (listed alphabetically by first name):"
14:15 < kanzure> i see
14:15 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what are his actual skills, btw?
14:16 < kanzure> i mean did he ever have a history of submitting large quantities of code to projects?
14:16 < jrayhawk> Well, there's BusyBox.
14:17 < jrayhawk> His qualifications seem to be: decent programmer, ability to speak and write in a compelling manner, very little sense of self-restraint.
14:17 < kanzure> yeah he definitely seems to be more on the public relations end?
14:19 < jrayhawk> Yeah, he's good at being loud. He's also more reliably saying something worthwhile than most loud people (rms, ESR, etc.).
14:19 < kanzure> well his message on licensing tends to be clear to me
14:20 < kanzure> oh but i guess rms' moral arguments are also clear to me so nevermind
14:30 < QuantumG> rms has a great moral argument.. unfortunately it leads to a conclusion that calls for you to live like a monk.
14:32 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alwn.net+%22bruce+perens%22 perens' appearences on lwn tend to be interesting
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15:08 < klafka> RMS moral argument isn't bad but it's a bit of a stretch a lot of time
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16:15 < kanzure> box2d javascript again http://code.google.com/p/box2dweb/
17:00 < belorno> Hey kanzure.
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18:00 < kanzure> 2~
18:00 < kanzure> ssh: connect to host neuroblastoma.omgwallhack.org port 22: Connection refused
18:17 < klafka> ;_;
18:52 < kanzure> so there's this person claiming that his wife has an electrostatic charge
18:52 < kanzure> and that she can't ever be in the same room with anything producing electric fields
18:52 < kanzure> including common consumer devices
18:52 < kanzure> this sounds like bullshit to me?
18:56 < QuantumG> probably.. I knew a guy who would cause computers to crash whenever he entered a room.
18:56 < QuantumG> this was around 1998.
18:57 < QuantumG> scratch that, 1996.
18:58 < kanzure> maybe he was a bogon generator
19:09 < QuantumG> http://singularityhub.com/2011/08/14/dutch-plantlab-revolutionizes-farming-no-sunlight-no-windows-less-water-better-food/
19:12 < uniqanomaly> weed was there first
19:15 < QuantumG> no doubt had an influence :)
19:15 < superkuh> Yes, bullshit.
19:16 < superkuh> And easily tested.
19:16 < superkuh> With a 9v battery, a jfet, and an LED.
19:16 < superkuh> Not that testing is required, because it's bullshit.
19:17 < QuantumG> sorry, what's bullshit?
19:17 < superkuh> People who claim to have a permanent electrostatic charge that can 'crash' electronics.
19:18 < QuantumG> ahh
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19:24 < kanzure> superkuh: apparently it was an old childhood mentor of mine when i was doing concert paino
19:24 < kanzure> (apparently i did concert piano)
19:24 < kanzure> *piano
19:31 < kanzure> git mv Student student
19:31 < kanzure> fatal: renaming 'iphone/Student' failed: Invalid argument
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20:35 < belorno> The new farming method was awesome. Thanks for the link. Goodnight.
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21:55 < fenn> superkuh: got a HV question
21:55 < fenn> we're trying to trigger something based on the output of an electric fence
21:55 < superkuh> Okay. I'll try to respond usefully.
21:55 < fenn> the fence discharges a capacitor onto the line once a second
21:56 < fenn> we're trying to detect a human, so modeling the human as a 12 ohm resistor
21:56 < fenn> so there's a voltage divider and a bunch of diodes in series to clamp whatever voltage comes out of the divider to 5V
21:57 < fenn> does that make sense?
21:57 < fenn> the divider is made up of an actual resistor and the human
22:00 < fenn> the goal is for the output to be somewhere between 3 and 5 volts so an arduino can interrupt on the pulse
22:02 < superkuh> The human is in series with the voltage divider for the sensor of capacitor voltage?
22:02 < fenn> the human is one resistor in the voltage divider
22:02 < fenn> voltage will be across the line whether there's someone there or not
22:02 < fenn> we're trying to detect if there's something there
22:03 < fenn> now that i'm thinking about it, the best way might just be to measure the resistance across the electrodes and only turn on the fence when it's at a high enough value
22:03 < fenn> er, low enough resistance
22:06 < superkuh> You're going to be charging the capacitor at all times because of leakage, right? But it'll be almost no current.
22:06 < superkuh> Except when it has discharged.
22:06 < superkuh> The charging current will increase after discharge on the low voltage end.
22:06 < superkuh> Look at that.
22:06 < fenn> the way the fence works is it discharges a capacitor and somehow this generates high voltage
22:06 < fenn> it does that once a second
22:07 < fenn> there's no high voltage capacitor
22:07 < fenn> it's very low current at high voltage for something like a microsecond
22:20 < superkuh> I would design the voltage divider to allow for current of some mA to pulse an optoisolator which switches briefly a 5 or 3v battery provided voltage. Given a meatsack as an alternate current path it just wouldn't pulse and that lack would be the trigger.
22:21 < fenn> yeah we discussed using optoisolators but werent sure if there was enough current
22:22 < fenn> should probably just test that and see if it works, would be much easier
22:22 < superkuh> Me either. But I wouldn't want to hook a pulsed trigger transformer up to my avr, even through a voltage divider.
22:23 < fenn> right
--- Log closed Mon Aug 15 00:00:25 2011