--- Log opened Fri Aug 19 00:00:30 2011
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08:56 < kanzure> parallax is going to be selling some open source hardware product at radioshack soon
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09:31 < kanzure> beep
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10:00 < kanzure> http://www.arsbiologica.org/2011/08/diybio-los-angeles-interview-with-romie.html
10:00 < kanzure> http://diybiosummit.eventbrite.com/
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11:12 < kanzure> http://www.openhardwaresummit.org/attend-2011/
11:12 < kanzure> september 14th, 15th
11:12 < kanzure> fossasia is nov. 11-13
11:12 < kanzure> cool no conflict.. was worried for a moment
11:13 < kanzure> open science summit is oct. 22-23
11:13 < kanzure> manchester diybio is oct. 29
11:14 < kanzure> icontvl (a transhumanist conference in israel) is oct. 24 http://www.icon.org.il/2011/en/CFPposthumanismcon2011
11:16 < kanzure> ephemerisle 2012 is june 9-10
11:16 < kanzure> quantified self 2012 is may 26-27
11:16 < kanzure> personalized life extension 2012 undecided
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12:42 < kanzure> delinquentme: have you read http://protocol-online.org/ yet
12:44 < delinquentme> yeahhh ive got it saved
12:45 < delinquentme> kanzure, i think im gonna send them my resume and just stay on them till they put me in touch with someone in computation
12:45 < delinquentme> :D
12:45 < delinquentme> they will let me help them
12:45 < delinquentme> but yeah i was looking over the minipreps on those
12:45 < delinquentme> but like with the convo with tyr the other day
12:45 < delinquentme> im starting to realize that theres TONS of specialization within research
12:46 < delinquentme> so like most people are going to be able to give me the general overview I want
12:53 < delinquentme> OK H+ ers..
12:53 < delinquentme> whats the quickest way to learn biology :D
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13:10 < kanzure> one does not learn biology.. only to tolerate it
13:11 < kanzure> i can't remember the exact number but didn't someone say something like "on average people take 2 months per protocol" or whatever?
13:12 < kanzure> ok boys and girls, who wants to guess whether netconsole is tcp or udp
13:23 < delinquentme> 2 months per protocol?
13:23 < delinquentme> i dont follow kanz
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13:25 < kanzure> hrm i'm trying to follow this http://sarah.thesharps.us/2010-03-26-09-41
13:25 < kanzure> [  632.180045] console [netcon0] enabled
13:25 < kanzure> [  632.180056] netconsole: network logging started
13:25 < kanzure> i get to that part;
13:25 < kanzure> but when i type "logger 'yo'" on the machine, it appears in dmesg but isn't sent over netconsole
13:28 < kanzure> huh weird, unknown keycodes get sent over but not anything i type via "logger"
13:29 < delinquentme> kanzure, 2 months / protocol to understand it? to memorize it? to what
13:29 < delinquentme> design one from scratch maybe
13:29 < delinquentme> 2 months = long ass time
13:30 < kanzure> to get it right
13:30 < kanzure> there are many hundreds of variables that people screw up on when running a protocol
13:30 < kanzure> damn it the one time i bother to set up logging before i turn on my wifi driver, the kernel doesn't crash!
13:30 < kanzure> <--- rage
13:30 < kanzure> what is this devil magic
13:32 < kanzure> not cool
13:34 < kanzure> maybe the ethernet connection is making the wifi driver not be awful
13:34 < delinquentme> kanzure, y humans no machine like
13:34 < delinquentme> this is all im saying.
13:34 < kanzure> what? i don't understand what you just said
13:36 < kanzure> fffuuuu there it goes
13:36 < kanzure> crashed... and nothing shows up in the log
13:37 < kanzure> rtl819xSE:EnableHWSecurityConfig8192:, hwsec:1, pairwise_key:2, SECR_value:c
13:37 < kanzure> rtl819xSE:====>to setKey(), dev:f4de0000, EntryNo:4, KeyIndex:0, KeyType:2, MacAddr00:23:69:40:4f:7d
13:37 < kanzure> where's my kernel panic? i was promised a kernel panic
13:41 < kanzure> well.. there's this? https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85504
13:43 < delinquentme> in what ways would synthetic bio push life extension forward?
13:44 < kanzure> what do you mean by "synthetic bio"?
13:45 < kanzure> honestly you should just read 10 of these per day for the next few years:
13:45 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
13:45 < kanzure> actually there's not that many
13:45 < kanzure> maybe enough for a few months
13:47 < delinquentme> haha
13:47 < delinquentme> research journals are nuts
13:47 < kanzure> here's a kaeberlein paper http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/Molecular%20basis%20of%20ageing.pdf
13:47 < delinquentme> im reading a protocol now
13:48 < delinquentme> call me nuts
13:48 < delinquentme> the 94th annual Boehringer ingelheim Fonds international titisee
13:48 < delinquentme> conference
13:48 < delinquentme> but
13:48 < delinquentme> whut
13:49 < kanzure> delinquentme:
13:49 < kanzure> http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/338
13:49 < kanzure> http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/318
13:49 < delinquentme> that sounds so damn obscure
13:49 < Utopiah> recently on aging http://www.pnas.org/content/108/32/13029
13:49 < kanzure> this is the one about protocols http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/290
13:49 < delinquentme> read it
13:49 < delinquentme> cool concept
13:49 < kanzure> back to microfluidics http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
13:49 < delinquentme> but if the proto is still fucked
13:49 < kanzure> ok just making sure
13:50 < delinquentme> it wont work :D
13:50 < delinquentme> its gotta be a software driven thin
13:50 < delinquentme> thing*
13:50 < delinquentme> i was going back and forth about this earlier ... right so we like pretty UI designs
13:50 < delinquentme> BUT
13:50 < delinquentme> whats scalable
13:50 < delinquentme> CODE. not UI designs
13:51 < kanzure> what UI are you talking about ??
13:51 < kanzure> anyway, biologists are not going to sit around writing up their protocols into machine code
13:51 < kanzure> they tend to be pretty bad programmers
13:52 < kanzure> like.. awful programmers that don't know they are awful, which makes them 10x more deadly
13:52 < delinquentme> duh
13:52 < delinquentme> BUT
13:52 < delinquentme> thats catering the tech to the researchers
13:52 < delinquentme> when were talking automation
13:52 < delinquentme> maaaannn
13:52 < delinquentme> like that one article .. ru kidding me .. a github for bio?
13:52 < delinquentme> no more lots protocols
13:53 < kanzure> what's wrong about git-controlled software-defined protocols?
13:53 < delinquentme> nothing!
13:53 < delinquentme> im saying that it is the bees-knees :P
13:54 < delinquentme> so what if current biologists dont like to code
13:54 < delinquentme> maybe thats the direction i need to talk
13:54 < delinquentme> ... go hunt down tecan and say .. i want to automate
13:54 < delinquentme> meh.
13:54 < delinquentme> ok wait. * keeps going *
13:55 < delinquentme> right .. complete integration and removal of humans ..
13:55 < delinquentme> GRANTED
13:55 < delinquentme> theres still a pay wall there
13:55 < delinquentme> BUT that is OK in the case where its all automated
13:55 < delinquentme> bc people could just be coding up protocols and have it run
13:56 < kanzure> i'm not sure you really groked what jonathan was writing about
13:56 < delinquentme> which solves that other big issue of ... if anyone can make a research grade bio lab ... how do we worry about those who might do bad things with it
13:56 < kanzure> if you have a protocol language in code then you can automatically generate labs-on-a-chip to run those protocols
13:56 < kanzure> so you could just print those out on a laser cutter (or whatever other method you use)
13:56 < kanzure> laser cutter microfluidics haven't been so hot/working lately
13:56 < delinquentme> ohh
13:57 < kanzure> like ASIC but for mini labs
13:57 < kanzure> so he wrote some code to parse lab protocols in english
13:57 < kanzure> if you have a set of standard components for each type of step you could imagine laying out a lab on a chip to do that cheaply
14:00 < kanzure> tbh when i was writing code to generate microfluidic circuits a big stumbling block was how awful the output looked
14:00 < kanzure> like the svg output
14:02 < delinquentme> lemme finish clines paper here .. 1 sec
14:02 < delinquentme> ok so here was my issue
14:02 < delinquentme> I think his expectations for the NLP
14:03 < delinquentme> were a bit high
14:03 < delinquentme> additionally
14:03 < delinquentme> while its a solution for existing protocols
14:03 < delinquentme> you're still relying on the human element for its input
14:09 < kanzure> heh hiding torrents in .png http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=702654
14:11 < delinquentme> as a prevention for filtering of torrent files?
14:11 < kanzure> hm http://torrentbutler.eu/
14:11 < delinquentme> isnt the bigger issue making the data transfers less traceable?
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14:18 < delinquentme> kanzure, the issues with microfludics among other things is the physics at that level right
14:18 < delinquentme> protocols arent the same between ml and uL
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14:53 < kanzure> http://gizmodo.com/5832735/lego-3d-milling-machine-is-too-bloody-awesome-for-words
14:53 < kanzure> it's cute dunno about awesome though
14:57 < Tyrant> delinquentme_, what plastic parts do you use in your instrument?
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15:06 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, zip ties
15:06 < delinquentme_> the body / frame heated / bent plastic
15:06 < delinquentme_> i relocated the compression to a metal body though
15:06 < delinquentme_> but i've since redesigned that compression housing
15:07 < delinquentme_> which i think can now be made w plastic
15:09 < delinquentme_> so Tyrant i got solidworks installed today :D
15:10 < delinquentme_> any protocols for me :D?
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15:14 < gcpopell> Hey
15:16 < kanzure> hello gcpopell
15:16 < gcpopell> I'm sorta surprised there's so many people in here.
15:17 < kanzure> gcpopell: why's that
15:17 < gcpopell> Most 'niche'/'special interest' ircs, even for active movements, are pretty dead
15:17 < gcpopell> and the transhumanist webspace is sad at points
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15:22 < kanzure> gcpopell: yeah, the majority of actually-transhumanist-stuff is happening via the biohacking/diybio groups
15:22 < gcpopell> right, but even so for discussion forums
15:22 < gcpopell> people are using mailing lists, etc. and poorly designed webforums
15:22 < kanzure> forums suck.. makin' me click everywhere grr
15:22 < kanzure> the mailing lists are dead and haven't grown since 2003
15:23 < gcpopell> I've generally been of the opinion (though clearly some people disagree) that there's far more usability in forums than mailing list stuff
15:23 < kanzure> yeah i don't care about that any more
15:23 < gcpopell> google groups = modern day mailing list setup
15:23 < kanzure> go write a forum2mail gateway & stfu
15:23 < kanzure> google groups isn't modern at all.. it's broken and hugely behind mailman
15:23 < gcpopell> Heh
15:23 < kanzure> which is sad because mailman is pretty bad too
15:24 < gcpopell> imminst is sorta weirdly set up
15:24 < gcpopell> LW uses the reddit system
15:25 < Tyrant>  delinquentme_, what do you mean protocols? just read the included tutorials, solidworks' help files are quite good
15:25 < kanzure> lesswrong is a plague that i wish would die
15:25 < kanzure> imminst is "longecity" now (whatever the hell that means)
15:25 < kanzure> but at least their nootropics forum is active...
15:25 < gcpopell> lesswrong is doing good things for the cause
15:25 < kanzure> uhh
15:25 < gcpopell> regardless of what you think of the members proclivities
15:25 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, i mean bio :D
15:25 < kanzure> are you an eliezer yudkowsky worshipper
15:25 < gcpopell> they've increased signups to cryogenic preservation
15:25 < gcpopell> nope
15:26 < delinquentme_> more stuff for me to do with a dispensing only liquid handler
15:26 < kanzure> /kickban gcpope--
15:26 < kanzure> oh
15:26 < gcpopell> I take severe umbrage at his interpretation of many worlds theory
15:26 < Tyrant> dispensing only? huh
15:26 < Tyrant> ?
15:26 < kanzure> okay
15:26 < gcpopell> and some of his decision theory
15:26 < delinquentme_> yeah just because ive got the fixed head
15:26 < kanzure> great, i really dislike his decision theory
15:26 < kanzure> ok so why is lesswrong worth bringing up here ?
15:26 < Tyrant> well
15:26 < Tyrant> pcr, transfection
15:27 < gcpopell> Because its a decently set up venue for people in the movement, even if its ones you disagree with, to communicate
15:27 < kanzure> what movement? rationality?
15:27 < gcpopell> and transhuman
15:27 < kanzure> uhrm
15:28 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-07-10.log
15:28 < Tyrant> delinquentme_, one sec, let me see if i have the notebook with me where i took my notes wen meeting with labs
15:29 < gcpopell> I understand their philosophy, even if I disagree at points, but they've got a couple things going for them
15:29 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, how did you go about getting those meetings?
15:29 < gcpopell> 1) They have an easily accessible venue, and 2) They're trying to educate and be ambassadors to people who don't understand
15:29 < kanzure> gcpopell: "so, in a way, they're trying to combat AI singularity with human rationalist singularity, and that just seems dumb to me considering that rationalism isn't really all that empowering."
15:30 < gcpopell> err, I disagree
15:30 < gcpopell> I feel they're trying to prepare as much as possible and guide the AI singularity
15:30 < Tyrant> delinquentme_, a few were in the mentor network for te fellowship and for the rest I got introductions through serendipity
15:30 < gcpopell> a number of the posters there work on hard AI research
15:30 < kanzure> yes i'm well aware
15:30 < delinquentme_> Hmmmm
15:30 < kanzure> i was a siai volunteer for a while
15:31 < gcpopell> of course, I don't believe in provably non-dangerous AGI, I think you can have inductively non-dangerous AGI though
15:31 < gcpopell> a sufficiently general intelligence is capable of deception...
15:31 < delinquentme_> kanzure, does SI work w anything bio?
15:31 < gcpopell> of course, I'm not really an AI guy, I'm more a 'current problems' with nano guy
15:31 < kanzure> delinquentme_: no, they ignore it :(
15:31 < gcpopell> that's my thesis, actually
15:31 < gcpopell> nanoprinting
15:31 < kanzure> gcpopell: great.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/
15:32 < kanzure> gcpopell: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer
15:32 < delinquentme_> colon open paren indeed -[
15:32 < delinquentme_> =[ **
15:32 < gcpopell> not much of a programmer
15:32 < gcpopell> although ahaha
15:32 < gcpopell> open source nano cad?
15:32 < gcpopell> man
15:32 < kanzure> delinquentme_: they are more about masturbation mathematics
15:32 < kanzure> gcpopell: yeah dude
15:32 < gcpopell> my work fits that perfectly
15:32 < kanzure> get with the times :)
15:32 < gcpopell> I'm writing a control system that will allow for sub micron printing at will using taylor cones
15:33 < gcpopell> granted, you have expense issues
15:33 < kanzure> you mean a driver for piezos?
15:33 < gcpopell> no
15:33 < kanzure> bbl
15:33 < gcpopell> more like building fundamental theory for near field (sub 30 micron) printing at high frequency
15:33 < gcpopell> it hasn't been done yet
15:34 < delinquentme_> gcpopell, wait you're printing sub microns
15:34 < delinquentme_> printing with **
15:34 < gcpopell> that's the goal, yes
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15:34 < delinquentme_> or at the sub micron level
15:34 < gcpopell> rather, it's been done, I'm building the mathematical model
15:34 < delinquentme_> do you know about this machine ....
15:34 < delinquentme_> ... more
15:35 < gcpopell> to describe with minimal error what's happening from start to finish
15:35 < gcpopell> the theory may apply all the way down to the <10nm level, but we're not there yet
15:35 < delinquentme_> ohhhh ok
15:35 < kanzure> speak to us in latex math notation
15:35 < gcpopell> if you're interested, look up 'taylor cones' and 'electrohydrodynamic jet printing'
15:35 < delinquentme_> so this kind of is a software and physics junction
15:35 < kanzure> but really bbl..
15:35 < gcpopell> nah, it's physics/engineering
15:35 < gcpopell> the software is just simulink
15:36 < gcpopell> I'm a terrible programmer, though I'd like to fix that
15:36 < delinquentme_> http://dvice.com/archives/2011/07/crazy-looking-m.php
15:36 < delinquentme_> dar is duh machine
15:36 < gcpopell> we're going from the other direction, shrinking what we can do
15:36 < gcpopell> instead of increasing rate at which molecular assembly happens
15:36 < gcpopell> it'll meet in the middle (lab wise) in estimation 10 years
15:36 < gcpopell> industrially 15?
15:37 < kanzure> simulink :( you might as well be using dynamol or dynma
15:37 < kanzure> or modelica
15:37 < gcpopell> eh, the math's the same
15:37 < gcpopell> and I'm only a masters student
15:37 < gcpopell> I'm out of here ASAP to go work as a defense consultant in predictive modeling
15:38 < gcpopell> I'd like to start a policy think tank for legislative policy based on the societal effects of transhuman technologies
15:38 < kanzure> rrgh
15:38 < kanzure> that totally failed though
15:38 < gcpopell> ie what happens when people want to replace limbs due to prosthetics being better, legal implications of that, etc.
15:38 < kanzure> ieet sucks balls
15:38 < gcpopell> I don't want to be a nonprofit
15:38 < gcpopell> :D
15:39 < gcpopell> I want to be more on the consulting side of the think tank I guess
15:39 < gcpopell> we'll see
15:39 < gcpopell> doing venture capital may take up a lot of my time
15:39 < gcpopell> I'd also like to see better ambassadors out of the H+ community, instead of insular cliques
15:40 < kanzure> i worked as a director of r&d for humanity+ for a while
15:40 < kanzure> i could tell you all the reasons they will never amount to anything
15:40 < gcpopell> H+ as a movement, not as an organization
15:40 < kanzure> so please don't rely on humanity+
15:40 < gcpopell> sorry, shorthand for transhumanism
15:40 < kanzure> nah they have effectively run the h+ thing into the ground
15:40 < kanzure> (not transhumanism though)
15:41 < gcpopell> I'm supposed to write an article for the magazine
15:41 < gcpopell> I feel like the transhumanist movement has been really terrible at outreach
15:41 < kanzure> did michael coerce you into that
15:41 < gcpopell> Kurzweil is great but he needs to shut up about his dead dad.
15:41 < gcpopell> nah, I volunteered
15:41 < gcpopell> I like having visibility
15:41 < gcpopell> I'm vain, greedy, and proud of it :)
15:41 < kanzure> i have the hplusmagazine stats since i wrote their code,
15:41 < kanzure> and trust me.. they have no readers
15:42 < gcpopell> That's a shame
15:42 < gcpopell> that won't help me get visibility
15:42 < kanzure> the blog is pretty bad
15:42 < kanzure> goertzel sometimes writes a long ok review article but meh
15:43 < gcpopell> the intersection of people interested in transhumanism and people who are able to deal with the larger gaussian area of society isn't very large
15:43 < gcpopell> heh
15:44 < kanzure> i'm not sure that's important
15:44 < kanzure> in fact, humanity+ has proven how useless that is
15:44 < gcpopell> if you want to shape how people perceive and how policy will be made I think it is
15:44 < kanzure> not really.. i mean look at the diybio policy stuff popping up
15:44 < gcpopell> but I think it needs to be a bit more geared towards the 'old white men' group :P
15:44 < kanzure> fuck humanity+ for not getting involved
15:44 < kanzure> pcsbi went pretty well on our own
15:44 < gcpopell> is diybio actually mostly bio?
15:44 < kanzure> (president's commission for the study of bioethical issues)
15:45 < kanzure> hrm? yeah?
15:45 < gcpopell> eh
15:45 < kanzure> there's a lot of transhumanist lurkers in the diybio community
15:46 < gcpopell> there really needs to be a well designed non-subject specific community
15:46 < kanzure> including some people working on longevity/rejuvenation projects,
15:46 < kanzure> augmentation projects, etc.
15:46 < kanzure> i think blog readers vs. forum-goers vs. email monkeys are pretty segregated
15:47 < gcpopell> there's a lot of blogs
15:47 < gcpopell> there's a lot of emails
15:47 < gcpopell> and there's some google groups
15:47 < gcpopell> the forums are almost universally terribly designed, though
15:50 -!- Kait85 [~chatzilla@142.204.133.114] has quit [Quit: Off fighting dragons and the evil wizard...]
15:52 < kanzure> new diybio article..
15:52 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/08/mf_diylab/
15:54 -!- Technicus [~nomadicus@adsl-71-150-252-224.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
15:55 < jrayhawk> wasn't your complaint with h+ something about them being more concerned with prestige than evangelism?
15:56 < kanzure> oops am i being inconsistent
15:56 < kanzure> evangelism-for-the-sake-of-evangelism is also pretty bad
15:56 < gcpopell> why do you believe that?
15:57 < kanzure> because look how awful they have made things
15:57 < gcpopell> things have been pretty awful for a while, no?
15:57 < jrayhawk> elaborate
15:57 < gcpopell> it's a very fractured movement
15:58 < kanzure> it's not fractured just incompetent
15:58 < kanzure> i'm sorry but you can't all be "self-promotion evangelists"
15:58  * fenn glances at some words
15:58 < kanzure> they are just words don't mind them
15:58 < gcpopell> the problem is that different people want different things and don't respect the fact other people may not want what they want, imo
15:58 < kanzure> except maybe delinquentme_'s crap.. he might need more guidance
15:58 < fenn> "102797 have signed up for the ai class"
15:58 < delinquentme_> yeap!
15:58 < delinquentme_> lost child :D
15:58 < gcpopell> nothing wrong with evangelizing, imo
15:59 < gcpopell> I think of it as counter propaganda
15:59 < kanzure> who cares?
15:59 < delinquentme_> haha was just afk for like 10 mins there .. yapping w a friend about open Hrdware
15:59 < gcpopell> you don't, but other people do
15:59 < kanzure> no i mean...
15:59 < kanzure> how is this directly helping you
15:59 < gcpopell> evangelizing?
16:00 < gcpopell> it means that I can more directly espouse viewpoints without worry of ostracization as they become more mainstream
16:00 < kanzure> yes; are you learning new skills to build nootropics, prosthetics, implants, rejuvenation therapies, or acquiring tools, equipment or other means to acheive our shared ends?
16:00 < kanzure> ok why do you care about what the mainstream thinks so much :/
16:00 < gcpopell> because there are more of them than us, and they have more money than us
16:00 < gcpopell> and my goals depend on having large quantities of money
16:00 < delinquentme_> kanzure, stagnation is a powerful thing
16:00 < kanzure> that's true for just about anything..
16:01 < gcpopell> and the more you convince
16:01 < gcpopell> the faster it goes
16:01 < kanzure> not really.. look at all the people humanity+ has "convinced"
16:01 < gcpopell> I didn't say they'd done well
16:01 < gcpopell> I said that there goal wasn't ignoble
16:01 < gcpopell> *their
16:02 < kanzure> here's a better strategy, i think
16:02 < kanzure> assume that there will be 0 growth and proceed anyway
16:02 < gcpopell> I disagree, a bit
16:02 < jrayhawk> Yeah, h+ didn't really seem like they were structured to get new people involved, more just to increase their own level of authority.
16:03 < kanzure> it's a little funny.. even singularity university isn't skilling people, heh
16:03 < gcpopell> has anyone worked on a modern day transhumanist non-fiction book but without kurzweil's particular variety of preaching?
16:04 < kanzure> well the concept of this channel was originally about a do-it-yourself transhumanism roadmap
16:04 < gcpopell> I'm keeping very detailed notes of my rederivations so to save time for the phd students who work on nanoprinting after me
16:04 < kanzure> what happened to my transhumanism bootcamp idea
16:05 < kanzure> i think the problem was something like "they won't pay $25,000 to learn real things"
16:05 < gcpopell> how would you run a transhumanist bootcamp? You can't get any two people to agree--and you seem to have issues with people that you disagree with how the movement should go
16:05 < kanzure> well, i'd do the training for biology, molecular biology, mechanical engineering, programming, etc.
16:06 < kanzure> oh also the longevity/nanotech/microfluidics/diybio areas
16:06 < kanzure> singularityu works primarily because people are cool with paying $25k to meet other people who can pay $25k to learn about those topics
16:07 < delinquentme_> transhumanist bootcamp would work except thats a shit monitization strat
16:07 < jrayhawk> "works"
16:07 < kanzure> i didn't confirm this but i'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to be militant about building things
16:07 < kanzure> jrayhawk: "gets people to pay"
16:07 < kanzure> delinquentme_: actually, singularityu makes money
16:07 < delinquentme_> the reason you can do that with college educations .. is societal support .. to an outsider trans humanist bootcamp = cult
16:07 < kanzure> it's not college
16:07 < kanzure> (that's just the name)
16:07 < delinquentme_> im saying its a college pay model
16:07 < kanzure> not really, i don't think people are getting student loans for it
16:09 < kanzure> gcpopell: there's been a few people in here (in this channel) for a few years and i've sorta failed them
16:09 < kanzure> i mean they still don't even know how to use screen
16:09 < kanzure> and i think you're on webirc :/
16:09 < gcpopell> Yes, because this isn't my primary computer
16:09 < kanzure> this isn't supposed to be the butt-end of technology
16:09 < gcpopell> I'm on vacation
16:09 < kanzure> yeah not you specifically of course.. just met you
16:09 < gcpopell> screen being a bio thing?
16:10 < kanzure> it's a shell tool to keep different terminals attached when you disconnect over ssh or whatever
16:10 < kanzure> very simple tool
16:10 < gcpopell> Ah
16:10 < gcpopell> linux?
16:11 < kanzure> well i guess you can ssh into windows but i don't see why
16:11 < gcpopell> I don't use linux, heh
16:11 < kanzure> osx?
16:11 < gcpopell> W7.
16:12 < gcpopell> I'd never use an apple product.
16:12 < gcpopell> their marketing/aesthetic irritates me
16:12 < kanzure> jrayhawk: out of curiosity, how is your makefile-fu or automake/autogen-fu?
16:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-44-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:13 < kanzure> eudoxia: hope you like the book
16:14 < kanzure> man my demeanor makes me sound depressed today
16:15 < foucist> gcpopell: microsoft's marketing/aesthetic doesn't irritate you? :P
16:15 < gcpopell> not nearly as much
16:16 < gcpopell> For one thing, they don't act like they're not a massive corporation
16:16 < kanzure> why not linux? they don't act like you're a moron
16:16 < kanzure> and if you happen to be a moron it turns out ok too
16:16 < gcpopell> Because the input effort/output effort isn't worth it on linux?
16:16 < gcpopell> For what I do?
16:16 < kanzure> have you tried
16:17 < kanzure> well, i guess it depends on what proprietary software you really need
16:17 < kanzure> simulink is probabyl windows only
16:17 < gcpopell> No, but I've observed time input of various friends
16:17 < kanzure> probably
16:19 < Tyrant> delinquentme_, sorry i forgot about the notes, dont have them with me in LA
16:19 < kanzure> Tyrant: did joseph's la thing happen
16:20 < Tyrant> Which LA thing
16:21 < kanzure> ha i guess anything
16:22 < Tyrant> I didnt know he was working on anyhting in LA
16:22 < delinquentme_> would it be innapropriate for me to send an email to the jcvi with this >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKZ-GjSaqgo <<< and " lol "
16:22 < Tyrant> the stuff he is working on is chile and carlsbad or something
16:22 < kanzure> delinquentme_: there's a few biohackers/transhumanists in the diybio community that work for jcvi
16:23 < kanzure> so if you ever have something serious to show them..
16:23 < delinquentme_> yeah i want JCV to tell me what protocols to automate to his iphone
16:23 < kanzure> what?
16:24 < kanzure> the iphone isn't a biology lab dude
16:24 < kanzure> that's just an interface..
16:24 < delinquentme_> " what to automate " is the question
16:24 < delinquentme_> correct
16:24 < delinquentme_> run the shit in browser
16:24 < kanzure> no..
16:24 < kanzure> you need physical things man
16:24 < kanzure> like equipment
16:24 < delinquentme_> let them do prep work from a browser
16:24 < delinquentme_> yeah duh
16:24 < delinquentme_> browser >> equip
16:24 < kanzure> ok then who cares if it's a browser or native code or what?
16:25 < kanzure> anyway,
16:25 < kanzure> how about you pick a project and just automate it
16:25 < delinquentme_> entrance strat
16:25 < delinquentme_> bc its got to be worth something
16:25 < kanzure> automate the design and production of microfluidic labs-on-a-chip
16:26 < delinquentme_> i guess i could pick a very few #
16:26 < delinquentme_> but the thing is physics gets wonk at that size
16:26 < kanzure> there's tons of papers man
16:26 < delinquentme_> not to mention it would need to be a beginning to end expiriment
16:26 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/
16:27 < kanzure> many protocols have been ported to microfluidics
16:27 < kanzure> including pcr and other basic stuff
16:27 < kanzure> but also dna sequencing, dna synthesis, etc.
16:27 < kanzure> ah there we go.. just got 187wpm
16:27 < kanzure> http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile?username=kanzure
16:28 < jrayhawk> kanzure: I rarely write makefiles, and have never really dealt with auto*
16:28 < kanzure> i see
16:28 < kanzure> i am about to shoot myself in the foot..
16:28 < kanzure> i'm setting up some infrastructure for compiling opengl es 2.0 shit to iphone/android native sdk
16:29 < kanzure> so gcc arm-7 cross compiling or something (i'm not entirely sure on the details)
16:29 < jrayhawk> it seems unlikely that you're the first person to do so
16:29 < kanzure> well there's others, but they started companies and charge $4000/year per developer per license
16:29 < kanzure> unity3d, airplaysdk, etc.
16:30 < jrayhawk> does the iphonedevonlinux project help you?
16:31 < kanzure> no i think that broke after iOS SDK 2 or something
16:31 < kanzure> oh, 3.1
16:31 < kanzure> still pretty old
16:31 < kanzure> anyway i don't mind doing my builds on osx as long as i can get them hosted at a colocation facility or something
16:33 < jrayhawk> I guess saurik would probably be the guy to ask about this stuff
16:33 < kanzure> saurik: why haven't you re-ported iOS SDKs back to linux recently
16:33 < kanzure> (kidding)
16:34 < saurik> kanzure: toolchains don't really rot
16:34 < saurik> like, I just compiled some new packages using my linux toolchain a few days ago
16:34 < kanzure> doh i wonder if i even tried it
16:35 < kanzure> saurik: handy links?
16:36 < saurik> also, my main reason for having a linux toolchain was a) to compile complex ports (I actually modified the compiler, linked, and assembler, as required to get linux stuff compiling better), and b) legality: 2.0b6 was under NDA, but had no outright "strings attached", so I can use it for all of my stuff without worry
16:36 < saurik> (that said, cydia now officially compiles using the apple SDK, as it makes it easier to get contributors)
16:37 < saurik> (but stuff like veency still uses my toolchain)
16:37 < Tyrant> delinquentme_, from what ive gathered, stuff like browser or mobile based interfaces to the tools are gimmicks to labs. they dont care about them. they have enough trouble getting reasonably priced equipment with even semi decent interfaces
16:37 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, so end goal is to make automated biology programming driven
16:37 < delinquentme_> because i say so
16:37 < delinquentme_> however
16:38 < delinquentme_> giving someone the option to start a protocol while theyre relaxing somewhere seems of benefit to me .. if nothing else its slightly novel .. and sufficient to get some noise
16:39 < Tyrant> novel but gimmicky
16:39 < delinquentme_> at the same time .. as im typing this .. an API which drives a liquid handler wouldnt be so bad :D
16:39 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, what adult doesnt like an iPad?
16:39 < delinquentme_> big kid toys
16:39 < Tyrant> making an API to drive a liquid handler is incredibly simple as long as you've got some control over the hardware
16:40 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, thoughts on adding an API to your LH?
16:40 < Tyrant> it already has one
16:40 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, my thing is i've got web and programming exp .. id like to put some of this to use
16:40 < delinquentme_> whats the input format?
16:40 < delinquentme_> make it JSON
16:40 < delinquentme_> OR XML
16:40 < Tyrant> currently has three commands: move to (x,y), lower or raise pipettes, intake or dispense liquid
16:41 < Tyrant> i can make it whatever i want
16:41 < delinquentme_> yeah im saying though you should use one of those two
16:41 < delinquentme_> JSON is kinda the hot shit right now ... and its sufficient
16:41 < Tyrant> currently the code is in python, converts directly to GCode with some extra commands
16:42 < delinquentme_> python can work with JSON
16:42 < Tyrant> why are you so obsessed with json and xml?
16:42 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, because i know of the web :D
16:42 < delinquentme_> API
16:42 < delinquentme_> this is more than just programming
16:43 < delinquentme_> API is the magic which allows Rubyist to work side by side with pythonistas as well as java'ers
16:43 < Tyrant> so keep using XML and JSON on the web. adding a json or XML parser to a microcotnroller is also gimmicky
16:43 < delinquentme_> O_o
16:43 < delinquentme_> too low level!!!!!
16:43 < Tyrant> and a waste of time
16:43 < delinquentme_> dude.
16:44 < delinquentme_> i think i should just come up with a pitch
16:44 < delinquentme_> and hit up thermofisher
16:44 < delinquentme_> and tecan
16:44 < delinquentme_> be like
16:44 < delinquentme_> BITCHES
16:44 < delinquentme_> give me money
16:44 < Tyrant> you wont get through the front door
16:44 < delinquentme_> this is what ima do.
16:44 < delinquentme_> HA
16:44 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, its cool man
16:44 < delinquentme_> lol
16:44 < delinquentme_> damn.
16:44 < delinquentme_> you
16:44 < delinquentme_> me
16:44 < delinquentme_> were on the same team here
16:45 < delinquentme_> "doing" is your call
16:45 < delinquentme_> im making suggestions with what im seeing this transform into
16:46 < Tyrant> you're focusing on entirely the wrong thing though
16:46 < delinquentme_> fact or opinion
16:46 < delinquentme_> ^^^
16:46 < delinquentme_> im saying the evolution of bio research
16:46 < delinquentme_> is not to be contained to warm bodies within a lab
16:46 < delinquentme_> im saying.
16:47 < delinquentme_> that this shit will become more of a computer
16:47 < Tyrant> how can you talk about the evolution of bio research when you've never really been in a lab?
16:47 < delinquentme_> operations normally performed without humans WITHIN the lab
16:47 < delinquentme_> logical fallacy
16:47 < delinquentme_> ummm red herring?
16:47 < delinquentme_> anyways.
16:47 < delinquentme_> no
16:47 < delinquentme_> ad hominem
16:47 < Tyrant> are you serious?
16:47 < delinquentme_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
16:47 < delinquentme_> yes.
16:48 < delinquentme_> now do you want to attack my character
16:48 < delinquentme_> or do you want to talkin motherfuckin science
16:48 < delinquentme_> =]
16:48 < delinquentme_>  ( srsly im being nice right now )
16:48 < Tyrant> I'm not attacking your character, I'm attacking your experience with regards to biolabs
16:48 < delinquentme_> ok so lets continue
16:48 < delinquentme_> why, do humans need to be in labs
16:49 < delinquentme_> allow me to liken a lab of sufficiently advanced degree
16:49 < delinquentme_> to where you can liken it to the inside of a computer case
16:49 < Tyrant> because we lack the algorithms, cost effective robotics, computational power to replace them
16:49 < delinquentme_> all of which are problems being worked on
16:49 < delinquentme_> right?
16:49 < Tyrant> oh and we very much lack an open ecosystem where equipment is both digitally and robotically interoperable
16:50 < delinquentme_> yes?
16:50 < Tyrant> no. not really.
16:50 < Tyrant> it's being worked on by a fringe group of people
16:50 < delinquentme_> O_o
16:50 < Tyrant> who aren't even remotely well funded
16:50 < delinquentme_> http://marciovm.com/i-want-a-github-of-science
16:50 < delinquentme_> ^^^^
16:51 < delinquentme_> im kind of taken aback right now?
16:51 < Tyrant> algorithms are being worked on, computational power is being worked on, but for the most part robotics and interoperability are not
16:51 < delinquentme_> theses are all things i just see as being
16:51 < delinquentme_> apparent
16:51 < Tyrant> Then make a github for science
16:51 < delinquentme_> the issue with walking into the HQ of tecan and b eing like
16:52 < delinquentme_> " give me a machine to automate on a high level through UI and API "
16:52 < delinquentme_> is that theres still that fucking paywall
16:52 < delinquentme_> however its a step in the direction of the automation
16:52 < delinquentme_> in the spirit of software
16:53 < kanzure> Tyrant: to be fair, there are people working on robotics for lab stuff
16:53 < kanzure> but
16:53 < Tyrant> kanzure: yeah im over generalizing
16:53 < kanzure> once you throw in a company, suddenly you're paying your engineers $100k/year
16:53 < kanzure> and then you're paying for patent licensing
16:53 < Tyrant> yep
16:53 < kanzure> and then you're paying for health care
16:53 < Tyrant> Results of that are Benchbot
16:53 < Tyrant> yay benchbot -_-
16:53 < kanzure> there's others though.. i wish i could remember them
16:54 < kanzure> what about that 'robot scientist' from the uk
16:54 < kanzure> is that benchbot?
16:54 < kanzure> sure looks similar..
16:54 < Tyrant> benchbot is velocity
16:54 < Tyrant> which was acquired by perkinelmer
16:54 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, what i was getting at with the github example is ... where is this headed
16:54 < Tyrant> no sorry agilent
16:54 < delinquentme_> like what is the next BIG thing within laboratories
16:55 < Tyrant> I dont know about others. I hear a lot about lab automation but i reserve my judgements till i talk to someone who has to use them
16:55 < Tyrant> delinquentme_, the next big thing imo isn't laboratories
16:55 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, how much of an issue are lost protocols
16:55 < kanzure> delinquentme_: lab-on-a-chip was spouted as the "next big thing"
16:55 < kanzure> in labs at least.
16:55 < delinquentme_> protocols which arent reproduceable
16:55 < delinquentme_> is that not huge?
16:55 < delinquentme_> what about when people want to make iterative processes ontop of existing protocols
16:56 < Tyrant> delinquentme_, that's huge. every lab i know writes their own by experimenting with existing ones
16:56 < delinquentme_> currently
16:56 < delinquentme_> they're running the whole damn thing over
16:56 < delinquentme_> why.
16:56 < kanzure> Tyrant: maybe i'm missing something but what is the appal of cnc and steppers over piping liquids around?
16:56 < kanzure> yeah, a very simple thing btw
16:56 < kanzure> would be a way to beautify pre-existing protocols
16:56 < kanzure> just the damn formatting even
16:56 < delinquentme_> well
16:56 < Tyrant> kanzure: what do you mean piping liquid around?
16:56 < delinquentme_> let me phrase it like this
16:56 < delinquentme_> the protocol
16:57 < delinquentme_> needs to be CAUSAL to the expiriment
16:57 < delinquentme_> currently they are not
16:57 < Tyrant> what do you mean casual
16:57 < kanzure> Tyrant: microfluidics, mems, lab-on-a-chip
16:57 < delinquentme_> as in the current protocol
16:57 < delinquentme_> doesnt drive the expiriment
16:57 < delinquentme_> experiment damn.
16:57 < kanzure> protocols are anything but casual
16:58 < delinquentme_> instead
16:58 < kanzure> i don't think you understand how much debugging goes into a single protocol
16:58 < delinquentme_> exactly^^^^^^^^^^^^
16:58 < kanzure> this is also the same with that opencures/the-vegas-group guy
16:58 < kanzure> he's like "herp derp why should i test my protocols"
16:58 < Tyrant> delinquentme_: the protocol IS the experiment for all intents and purposes
16:58 < kanzure> "fuck you that's why"
16:58 < delinquentme_> if once a protocol is written
16:58 < Tyrant> all you do is change a variable
16:58 < delinquentme_> like in software
16:58 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, no
16:58 < delinquentme_> its not
16:58 < delinquentme_> protocols are human made
16:58 < delinquentme_> and error prone
16:59 < delinquentme_> they're being run by humans for christsake
16:59 < delinquentme_> wtf
16:59 < delinquentme_> let us do the concepting
16:59 < kanzure> Tyrant: most protocols involve more than that though, especilaly when something goes wrong
16:59 < delinquentme_> let machines do tasks
16:59 < kanzure> especilaly
16:59 < kanzure> especially
16:59 < Tyrant> kanzure: I'm not very well versed with what's happening in microfluidics. if they're anything like lab automation it will take a long time for adoption
16:59 < kanzure> geeze. for someone who types 187wpm i sure do typo all over the place. sorry.
16:59 < kanzure> Tyrant: lots of labs have adopted it
16:59 < kanzure> even churchlab has done lots of microfluidics stuff
16:59 < kanzure> but the projects are definitely "one-off"
17:00 < kanzure> dunno if that's a big issue or not.. disposable projects is fine with me i think
17:00 < kanzure> since you usually dispose of everything anyway ('cept you freeze your samples)
17:00 < Tyrant> That depends on how  cost effective it is
17:00 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, so if you had a lab which is run by program code... instead of physical warm bodies flopping about
17:00 < Tyrant> again I dont know how the industry is going outside of the labs ive worked with
17:01 < delinquentme_> with intelligent algos to manage / time the expiriments
17:01 < delinquentme_> how much more research could be done
17:01 < delinquentme_> 45 metric fucktons
17:01 < Tyrant> delinquentme_: if you want to do some shit programming wise for automation look into CLIPS
17:01 < delinquentme_> never heard of it
17:01 < Tyrant> i've been looking at expert systems to run my automation software
17:02 < Tyrant> instead of programming you say "Fill Sample A with 20uL of Reagent B" and the expert system decides the course of action
17:02 < kanzure> that's just natural language processing
17:02 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, so you dont see the logical evolution of the lab being removal of humans for all purposes save for repair?
17:02 < delinquentme_> because thats how i see it changing
17:02 < kanzure> there was a link earlier today where jonathan was parsing english protocols into some code
17:02 < Tyrant> the parsing yes, but the expert system has to decide what to do when given the parsed instructions
17:02 < delinquentme_> ... like sure
17:02 < delinquentme_> i guess?
17:03 < delinquentme_> seems easier to make them programmers
17:03 < delinquentme_> and compile the code before running
17:03 < kanzure> nope.. they are very bad programmers
17:03 < delinquentme_> ok hold up
17:03 < Tyrant> you'll never make them programmers
17:03 < delinquentme_> inherently
17:03 < delinquentme_> SCIENTISTS = BAD PROGRAMMER
17:03 < delinquentme_> stop
17:03 < kanzure> Tyrant: so one of my earlier projects was to take those parsed instructions and generate lab-on-a-chip designs for one-offs
17:03 < delinquentme_> this is fucking flawed
17:03 < delinquentme_> they pipette shit and programming is a corollary
17:03 < delinquentme_> thats why they suck
17:04 < delinquentme_> make it their primary function
17:04 < delinquentme_> give them a mui tai
17:04 < Tyrant> if you try to teach biologists computer science along with making them biologists you'll increase their education time by a couple of years
17:04 < kanzure> nah
17:04 < delinquentme_> and put em on a beach letting them program protocols .. and im telling you .. thats where its going
17:04 < Tyrant> lol
17:04 < Tyrant> no
17:04 < Tyrant> a programmer can't make shit for protocols
17:04 < kanzure> Tyrant: most biologists do learn some form of coding at some point.. matlab, some c, whatever
17:04 < kanzure> they are just pretty bad :)
17:05 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, this is FLAWED
17:05 < delinquentme_> you're talking traditional edu systems
17:05 < delinquentme_> come on.
17:05 < Tyrant> delinquentme_: biologists are biologists. believe it or not most of their education is theoretical, most of their WORK is labor
17:05 < delinquentme_> realllly?
17:05 < delinquentme_> nah man make everyone a fucking programmer :D
17:05 < kanzure> delinquentme_: if you want to design somethng new go right ahead
17:05 < delinquentme_> we live in a world of machines
17:05 < delinquentme_> yeah i want to lol
17:05 < kanzure> but it might not fit your market
17:06 < delinquentme_> whats the quickest way to $$ though
17:06 < kanzure> haha there you go
17:06 < Tyrant> : /
17:06 < delinquentme_> im saying
17:06 < delinquentme_> what downside
17:06 < delinquentme_> is there to making bio a programming language centric operation
17:06 < delinquentme_> OMG people learn more
17:06 < delinquentme_> come on
17:06 < delinquentme_> we all learn more as it is
17:07 < delinquentme_> you're learning new management software and other stuff within a lab
17:07 < kanzure> nobody said there is a downside
17:07 < delinquentme_> shit at least this is scalabled
17:07 < delinquentme_> derp
17:07 < delinquentme_> scaleable
17:07 < kanzure> they won't pay for it right now, or possibly ever
17:07 < delinquentme_> kanzure, so where is the lab going then
17:07 < kanzure> i'm totally down for useful/correct/architecturally-useful designs
17:07 < Tyrant> like i said, my goal is a command like "Add 20uL of Reagent B to Sample A and then run them through Mass Spectrometer #2"
17:07 < kanzure> which is why i keep talking about skdb or downloadable hardware
17:08 < kanzure> "pretty printed protocols" i should really do that sometime
17:08 < kanzure> instead of 1 page of compressed text, make it a 5 page icon-based beautiful-on-the-eyes document
17:08 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, but cant you see
17:08 < delinquentme_> that that is already programatic
17:08 < delinquentme_> its a simple ass language
17:08 < delinquentme_> but its syntactic
17:08 < kanzure> delinquentme_: so are you arguing that the market will buy that?
17:09 < delinquentme_> im not saying drive the shit with C++ pointers and all its var funk
17:09 < Tyrant> Then why teach them how to program?
17:09 < delinquentme_> kanzure, the market will buy this because  1) no lost protocols 2) iterative speed on subsequence protocol improvements 3) sheer SPEED and 4) everything else is being automated
17:09 < Tyrant> use NTLK and CLIPS to parse that statement into actions
17:10 < kanzure> timeliness isn't something that labs care that much about..
17:10 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, it seems you're kind of designing this
17:10 < delinquentme_> to work with the current hissy fit of " im a scientist ... not a programer"
17:10 < delinquentme_> anyone like that
17:10 < delinquentme_> is a shitty scientist
17:10 < delinquentme_> ill say that now
17:10 < delinquentme_> if you cant see the evolution of this
17:10 < delinquentme_> you're lazy
17:11 < Tyrant> heh
17:11 < kanzure> ok i'm still trying to figure out what's going on here
17:11 < kanzure> you're talking about two things:
17:11 < kanzure> 1) things that make sense to technologists
17:11 < kanzure> 2) markets
17:11 < kanzure> do you want to work on this even if #2 doesn't add up?
17:11 < delinquentme_> like Tyrant you're absolutely right
17:11 < delinquentme_> like that would work
17:11 < delinquentme_> it seems like additional work
17:11 < delinquentme_> but like if the scientists you're working with
17:12 < jrayhawk> i would like to add that scientists are not architects are not engineers
17:12 < jrayhawk> attempting to treat them as such is inviting frustration
17:12 < delinquentme_> and yes, perhaps NLP will get to the point where someone can destroy the shit out of their language and it will still correctly extract a protocol step
17:12 < delinquentme_> buy damn its like HTML
17:12 < delinquentme_> doesnt everyone know how to do it?
17:12 < kanzure> delinquentme_: the way i see it,
17:12 < kanzure> it's kind of like gentoo
17:12 < kanzure> people who know what they want will go for gentoo
17:12 < delinquentme_> so why are we worrying about it
17:12 < kanzure> but it doesn't have to make money
17:12 < kanzure> so are you still interested in longevity/rejuvenation even if it doesn't make you money?
17:13 < delinquentme_> kanzure, absolutely
17:13 < delinquentme_> hold up
17:13 < kanzure> ok then what's the problem.. get to work
17:13 < delinquentme_> haha damn
17:13 < delinquentme_> face palm
17:13 < delinquentme_> ok
17:13 < delinquentme_> lets do it
17:13 < delinquentme_> PCR machine >> lets you amplify DNA
17:13 < delinquentme_> right?
17:13 < delinquentme_> FASter cheaper better than before
17:13 < delinquentme_> ( TOOL )
17:13 < delinquentme_> money
17:13 < delinquentme_> is a TOOL
17:14 < delinquentme_> for this reason
17:14 < delinquentme_> we seek it
17:14 < delinquentme_> yes for the whatever else
17:14 < delinquentme_> but the faster something makes $$
17:14 < delinquentme_> example
17:14 < delinquentme_> JCVI
17:14 < delinquentme_> some of the best talent right?
17:14 < delinquentme_> ( right )
17:14 < delinquentme_> you know the reason
17:15 < delinquentme_> bc hes bamf true.. but also .. he can pay for the best
17:16 < delinquentme_> jrayhawk, so if we create a tool .. which allows automation of all scientific processes
17:16 < delinquentme_> and the most effective way to conduct research is through programming
17:16 < delinquentme_> whats the advantage of sticking people into a lab and letting them possibly make mistakes
17:16 < delinquentme_> its that initial hump of automating everything in the lab
17:16 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, ^^^ thats for you too
17:17 < Tyrant> lol
17:17 < delinquentme_> ?
17:17 < delinquentme_> whats funny
17:18 < delinquentme_> yes automate everything >> difficult
17:18 < Tyrant> that is the way it will hopefully end up but if you want to contribute it you need to see all of the hurdles
17:18 < delinquentme_> true.
17:18 < kanzure> or just make it and not care about the money
17:18 < delinquentme_> sorry im deep breathing :D
17:18 < delinquentme_> chilling
17:18 < Tyrant> and theres no sense in teaching any biologists to program. just give them a pretty UI that they can learn
17:18 < Tyrant> and instruments that can interoperate
17:18 < delinquentme_> kanzure, you think im gonna automate a whole lab w/o cash?
17:18 < delinquentme_> thats weird
17:19 < kanzure> why not? use your own money
17:19 < kanzure> i'm not a fucking bank
17:19 < kanzure> i can't fund you guys forever
17:19 < delinquentme_> lolol
17:19 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, im ok with this
17:19 < jrayhawk> Universities also tend to have the resources for these kinds of projects.
17:19 < delinquentme_> UI as well as API can work harmoniously
17:20 < Tyrant> My api: start byte, command byte, length byte, extra data, end byte.
17:20 < Tyrant> thats all the api you need
17:20 < Tyrant> no xml no json
17:20 < delinquentme_> Tyrant,
17:20 < delinquentme_> ghetto
17:20 < kanzure> delinquentme_: i don't know if you remember,
17:21 < delinquentme_> lol
17:21 < kanzure> but i was starting this transhumanist co-op
17:21 < kanzure> where the members would share tools and lab space and funding,
17:21 < delinquentme_> oh?
17:21 < kanzure> and possibly some front-end for making cash (consulting, kits, other bullshit but nothing specific)
17:21 < Tyrant> It's not ghetto. it's simple. weren't you the one preaching simplicity?
17:21 < delinquentme_> Tyrant, like thats the proto that my bot uses but it could be better
17:21 < delinquentme_> tyrant when you extrapolate this machine
17:21 < Tyrant> It's simple and requires no extraneous parsing
17:21 < delinquentme_> to the scale of a lab
17:22 < delinquentme_> do you want to be the guy going through the protos being passed around
17:22 < delinquentme_> nah fuck that
17:22 < delinquentme_> if you can give it a unique searchable string
17:22 < delinquentme_> something that has meaning
17:22 < delinquentme_> that data is of much higher quality
17:22 < delinquentme_> sure binary works now
17:22 < Tyrant> Not for a microcontroller it's not
17:22 < delinquentme_> for a human it is
17:22 < delinquentme_> debugging.
17:23 < delinquentme_> its cool now .. but im just thinking once it gets big
17:23 < delinquentme_> something with a little more description might be helpful
17:23 < Tyrant> The byte code corresponds directly to commands
17:23 < kanzure> Tyrant: be careful..
17:23 < kanzure> Tyrant: next he will ask you to run node.js on it
17:23 < delinquentme_> so why design it in byte code and introduce an unnecessary step
17:23 < jrayhawk> hee
17:23 < kanzure> and ningx
17:24 < Tyrant> delinquentme_:... PARSING is unnecessary
17:24 < Tyrant> no one will be programming in it
17:24 < Tyrant> i have a 1:1 python interface
17:24 < delinquentme_> ;D
17:24 < delinquentme_> turn that lab into a mother fucking CPU :D
17:24 < Tyrant> python outputs to libusb
17:24 < kanzure> libhdi? :/
17:25 < Tyrant> hmm?
17:25 < delinquentme_> yeh i dont get either
17:25 < kanzure> it's another usb interface that i've used with python
17:25 < kanzure> doesn't matter
17:25 < delinquentme_> kanzure, SKDB?
17:25 < Tyrant> Well actually it's currently serial, not even usb
17:25 < Tyrant> but im expecting to switch to USB when moving to XMOS
17:25 < kanzure> delinquentme_: http://gnusha.org/skdb/
17:26 < kanzure> delinquentme_: it's apt-get for hardware.. or it's supposed to be, if i get more people to help
17:27 < Tyrant> kanzure: what would you recommend for publishing open hardware stuff?
17:27 < kanzure> as many file formats as you have,
17:27 < kanzure> .step, .iges, brlcad are all ok formats
17:28 < kanzure> heekscad, freecad, brlcad, opencascade, pythonocc are all moderately workable open source cad systems
17:28 < kanzure> there's a git repository structure proposed in the skdb project
17:28 < kanzure> with a metadata.yaml file that lists.. well, metadata
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17:28 < kanzure> and for BOMs etc.
17:29 < delinquentme_> you guys think im safe with a student license for solidworks to publish open source stuff ja?
17:30 < Tyrant> kanzure: btw, http://angel.co/labminds
17:30 < Tyrant> cool little piece of automation
17:30 < jrayhawk> There's probably a not-for-profit clause in there that's more relevant.
17:30 < kanzure> unfortunately people would have to download solidworks
17:30 < delinquentme_> what is Nespresso
17:31 < kanzure> Tyrant: they pay them $60/h? what?
17:31 < kanzure> oh lab techs are $20/h
17:31 < Tyrant> Their math is suspect either wa
17:31 < Tyrant> 8 billion my ass
17:31 < Tyrant> but the instrument is nevertheless cool
17:31 < delinquentme_> dude.
17:31 < delinquentme_> this is sweet
17:39 < kanzure> hey i want some android/iphone books where do i download them
17:39 < kanzure> i'm still confused about torrent trackers or which ones are useful these days
17:44 < Tyrant> library.nu
17:44 < kanzure> is gnutella still happening?
17:48 < delinquentme_> wait.
17:48 < delinquentme_> here we go.
17:48 < delinquentme_> so
17:48 < delinquentme_> biology, being the complex science that it is
17:49 < delinquentme_> and to parallel your sentiments Tyrant about multiplexing of experiments
17:49 < delinquentme_> is the huge number of iterative tests we can run most readily solved through UIs or programming languages
17:50 < delinquentme_> it just seems to me the natural answer is that for anything to be parallelized >>> programming = answer
17:52 < Tyrant> kanzure: ever used pythonocc to work with STEP files?
17:53 < kanzure> yes
17:53 < kanzure> Tyrant: all the time..
17:55 < Tyrant> how well does it work, speed and conversion wise
17:56 < kanzure> oh it's adequate
17:56 < kanzure> and it works..
17:56 < kanzure> but if you ever need to fix a bug in it on your own, ha ha ha :)
17:56 < kanzure> it's just a mess
17:57 < Tyrant> great
17:57 < Tyrant> lol
17:57 < delinquentme_> kanzure, do you know anyone with tickets to openhardware summit?
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18:22 < kanzure> delinquentme_: i know the organizers of the summit.. you should give a talk
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18:22 < delinquentme_> i didnt think i was gonna be able to go :D
18:22 < delinquentme_> and its past registration date
18:23 < delinquentme_> aside from that yeah i'd talk about peristaltic pumps
18:35 < delinquentme_> so yeah kanzure if you can get a extra ticket thatd be aweso
18:36 < kanzure> why wolud you need a ticket to give a talk
18:36 < kanzure> would
18:36 < delinquentme_> http://citizensciencequarterly.com/2011/06/22/open-source-inkjet-based-oligonucleotide-synthesizer-and-microarrayer/
18:36 < delinquentme_> oh...
18:36 < delinquentme_> *shrug* i just wanna go
18:36 < delinquentme_> i guess then a presenter is allowed in free?
18:38 < kanzure> posam cost $20k or something to build
18:38 < kanzure> really big/expensive
18:38 < kanzure> some sort of crazy inert gas atmosphere
18:38 < delinquentme_> ooooo
18:38 < delinquentme_> fancy
18:55 < kanzure> with apologies to the rest of the civilized world,
18:55 < kanzure> i present to you my automatic ai-class.com registration spambot
18:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/ai-class.py
19:22 < kanzure> oops now it's up
19:24 < kanzure> i should switch it to lxml
19:51 < delinquentme_> lol this does what
19:51 < kanzure> increases the ai-class.com registration counter
19:52 < kanzure> people are making a big deal out of the fact that 100,000 people registered
19:52 < kanzure> as if it matters or something
19:52 < kanzure> so assuming it somehow matters and would somehow influence future offerings, why not artificially inflate the number to something even more ridiculous
19:53 < delinquentme_> cool with my
19:53 < delinquentme_> so as far as your alibi
19:53 < delinquentme_> we were playing wow?
19:53 < delinquentme_> ( this whole time.. non stop )
19:53 < kanzure> my alibi is that i am you
19:54 < delinquentme_> lololol
19:55 < Tyrant>  oh kanzure why would you do that to yourself
19:55 < delinquentme_> kanzure, how did you assemble this list?
19:55 < Tyrant> actually wait
19:56 < Tyrant> why would you do that to delinquentme_?!
19:56 < delinquentme_> there are some legit foreign names in here
19:56 < jrayhawk> revenge for attempting to inflict XML upon microcontrollers
19:56 < delinquentme_> lol
19:56 < delinquentme_> winnifred
19:56 < delinquentme_> ^^^ win.
19:57 < delinquentme_> ooo
19:57  * Tyrant high fives jrayhawk
19:57 < delinquentme_> face book  maybe
19:57 < delinquentme_> friends of friends etc.. groups .. parse names
19:58 < jrayhawk> I would've just stolen it from 'rig', personally.
19:58 < Tyrant> Alexander Alexanders
20:02 < kanzure> delinquentme_: census.gov data
20:03 < kanzure> i have various word lists in case of emergencies
20:03 < kanzure> .. this was such an emergency.
20:03 < kanzure> i actually pasted the link to that script before i wrote it... heh
20:13 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what is rig
20:13 < kanzure> oh, random identity generator
20:29 < jrayhawk> i guess census.gov scrapings would be a good thing to contribute to rig
20:32 < delinquentme_> modified ecstasy "attacks blood cancers" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14572284
20:33 < delinquentme_> THIS IS SO SO AWESOME
20:35 < klafka> 'modified ecstasy'
20:35 < klafka> gah more pop sci articles need to have links to real science
20:36 < klafka> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21850491
20:37 < klafka> anyone able to get the full article?
20:39 < kanzure> jrayhawk: http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.female.first
20:39 < kanzure> http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.male.first
20:39 < kanzure> http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.all.last
20:39 < kanzure> cat dist.male.first | awk 'BEGIN { FS = " " }; { print tolower($1) }' > first.names.txt
20:39 < kanzure> etc..
20:39 < kanzure> klafka: i wrote a website once that does that
20:39 < kanzure> klafka: it worked as a bookmarklet
20:39 < kanzure> so once you came to a popsci article, you'd click the tool and it would take you to the motherfucking pdf
20:40 < kanzure> worked mostly based on user contributions though :(
20:44 < kanzure> god this looks awful/painful http://www.thevoxelagents.com/agentlogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/JNI_presentation.pdf
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20:47 < klafka> aah
20:47 < klafka> heh
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21:47 < kanzure> :( what am i getting myself into
21:47 < kanzure> http://www.koushikdutta.com/2009/01/jni-in-android-and-foreword-of-why-jni.html
22:00 < kanzure> ok boys and girls time to grab your hp touchpads for $100
22:01 < kanzure> http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3220862
22:05 < superkuh> Out of stock
22:19 < kanzure> who is this dmitry skiba person and why do i keep running into it
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23:27 < jrayhawk> i don't really get tablets
23:27 < jrayhawk> they seem like all the disadvantages of a phone with all the disadvantages of a laptop
23:28 < jrayhawk> actually more than the disadvantage of a phone; phones tend to come with keyboards
23:29 < jrayhawk> maybe it's a futurist thing
23:43 < kanzure> under what situation would i use swig on android's ndk/jni?
23:43 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i'm pretty sure it's just that people have marginally more disposable income
23:45 < kanzure> aboo? http://android.wooyd.org/JNIExample/files/JNIExample.pdf
23:46 < kanzure> this looks bizarre http://dmitryskiba.github.com/itoa-jnipp/ it seems to wrap java classes back into the android ndk
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--- Log closed Sat Aug 20 00:00:32 2011