--- Log opened Tue Dec 27 00:00:47 2011 00:03 -!- augur [~augur@c-75-74-128-170.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:33 -!- _sol_ [Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:34 -!- _sol_ [Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:24 < sylph_mako> I'm not sure whether I'm a singularitarian. Part of the definition of it is "that deliberate action ought to be taken to ensure that the Singularity benefits humans." 02:25 < sylph_mako> ... I can't help but feel that if humans exist alongside that which long ago transcended being human as those very humans would aspire to do.... The humans have been rendered irrelevant and should basically step out of the way. 02:27 < sylph_mako> In the scheme of things, on the scheme of 2000AD to 3000AD life even, it just doesn't seem they'll be worth much by the end, if things go well. 02:30 < sylph_mako> So no, I wont care to preserve them, whether I've transcended or not. It's just not for humans at that stage. 02:30 < sylph_mako> Bah. I've too much to say. I'll save it for the blog. 02:30 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:42 -!- Jaakko96 [~Jaakko@host86-152-7-170.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:48 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:54 -!- Steel_ [62f7762e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.247.118.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:58 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-26-134.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@DSLPool-net208-2.wctc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:26 -!- Jaakko96 [~Jaakko@host86-152-7-170.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 04:38 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@DSLPool-net208-2.wctc.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:39 < strangewarp> sylph_mako: Future beings may weigh the motivations of humanlike intelligences appropriately low compared to any hyperintelligences that might exist; or they may treat intelligence levels with some measure of anti-discrimination sentiment. This is one of the areas that can only be occupied by complete speculation until it actually occurs, I suppose. 04:39 < Mariu> thanks, strangewarp 04:40 < strangewarp> oh, they left.. 04:40 < strangewarp> you're welcome? :x 04:40 < Mariu> yup :x 06:59 < kanzure> mako: the singularitarians are a very specific subbranch of all these communities, with a very particular leader (eliezer yudkowsky) 07:08 < strangewarp> I thought Kurzweil was the grandpappy singularitarian, and Yudkowsky was trying to apply rationality to it? Since Kurzweil is full of woo.. 07:11 < kanzure> uh, no 07:12 < kanzure> kurzweil is just riding his popularity wave 07:12 < kanzure> yudkowsky has a very particular mental framework built up of beliefs and rationalizations about artificial intelligence concerning the singularity 07:19 < strangewarp> There was a Yudkowsky article about the difference between rationalization and rationality, but... weirdly, even though his reasoning is overall decent, he seems like he's lost his momentum, by attacking philosophical problems instead of focusing on engineering... 07:21 < strangewarp> I like that he recognizes that you have to ask questions correctly for the answers to be relevant, but it seems like he's seeking out a perfect question before he'd encourage anyone to start creating concrete engineering projects.. 07:32 < kanzure> strangewarp: http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-07-10.log 07:33 < kanzure> i suggest starting at 14:37ish 07:33 < strangewarp> let's see here.. 07:35 < strangewarp> Ahh 07:35 < kanzure> http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2010/10/singularity-institutes-scary-idea-and.html 07:36 < kanzure> see at 15:00 07:36 < strangewarp> I do take issue with the urge towards establishing dominance in pursuit of liberation, which is a moderately prevalent meme.. 07:40 < strangewarp> quoting from log 07:40 < strangewarp> 15:00 < kanzure> jrayhawk: "provably non-dangerous AGI" is exactly the signs of a precautionary principle 07:40 < strangewarp> Agree heartily 07:45 < strangewarp> So far as LessWrong's attempts to push their variety of weirdly precautionary yet forward-looking structured rationality into the general population.. it was useful to help me get habits for criticism and deconstruction, and then I stopped, because I saw diminishing returns after that (as I'm not a philosopher or politician) 07:45 < kanzure> huh someone tried out transcranial ultrasound 07:45 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFFbxoHp3s#t=2151s 07:46 < kanzure> presenter: Stuart Hameroff 07:47 < kanzure> starts at 34min i guess 07:50 < kanzure> wait a second.. penrose-hameroff.. this is probably the same hameroff :/ 07:51 < kanzure> pfft he has a pic of someone using ultrasound imaging on his head http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/ 07:52 < kanzure> ugh "There was a study just recently on blocking the essential tremor. I think the mechanism of the ultrasound, which is vibrations in the 20,000 up to several megahertz, is actually through vibrations of microtubules. Now a lot of people we’re going to feel don’t have a clue as to what the mechanism is that they’re discussing. It turns out that the microtubules have residences in the kilohertz to megahertz range and I think the ultrasound is 07:54 < kanzure> "TUS is thought to work via megahertz resonance of brain microtubules." by who? 07:54 < kanzure> nobody has published anything of the sort 07:59 < strangewarp> Actually, the more I think about the efforts to focus on provably (or probably) non-dangerous AGI, the more I think an AGI's reaction would be like a teenager whose parents forbid them from doing completely idiotic things they'd never get into anyway.. 08:00 < kanzure> or it would be completely alien 08:00 < uniqanomaly_> we can't even prove any that particular child won't be next hitler 08:00 < uniqanomaly_> that any* 08:00 < kanzure> Therefore we should sterilize the entire planet 08:01 < uniqanomaly_> precautionary principle at its finest 08:02 < uniqanomaly_> drink? don't irc gotaa go xD 08:02 < strangewarp> I know from experience that strict and experimental education regimens can serve to make people surly and crazy for a long time, as well, and lately I've been drawing a mental parallel from that to certain techniques that might be used to encourage friendly-AI.. 08:03 < kanzure> most of the fai talk is about the architecture of the ai, not preschool/childhood education 08:03 < strangewarp> indeed.. 08:24 < strangewarp> hell.. I keep misreading "futurists" as "fursuits". Brain damage from my years in the furry community, I think.. 08:54 < Mokbortolan_> Yep. 09:02 -!- strages_ [~qwebirc@dev.throwthemind.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:14 -!- strages_ [~qwebirc@dev.throwthemind.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:14 < strages_> are there any diy methods for the production of quantum dots? 09:22 < superkuh> http://mrsec.wisc.edu/Edetc/nanolab/CdSe/ 09:25 < Mokbortolan_> strages: you just need a really fine-tipped needle and some paint 09:39 < kanzure> i think superkuh's answer is more precise 09:48 -!- SDr [~SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:28 < strages_> thanks for the link 10:28 < Mokbortolan_> hmm 10:28 < Mokbortolan_> does anybody actually have any safety data for noopept? 10:51 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:53 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:16 -!- SDr [~SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [] 11:48 -!- Mokbortolan_ is now known as Moktato 12:06 -!- Steel_ [62f7762e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.247.118.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:25 < kanzure> what's in nyc besides genspace and resistor? 12:27 < bkero> bums, crack, and urine 12:29 < strages_> Alpha One Labs 12:30 < Moktato> oh hey bkero, didn't notice you there 12:30 < strages_> HackManhattan 12:30 < bkero> Moktato: I've been in here for years. 12:31 < strages_> Eyebeam 12:31 < Moktato> I only recently stopped in, found it in a thread about the epoc 12:32 < kanzure> it's ok bkero, we'll let you go on good behavior.... soon 12:32 < bkero> kanzure: as long as you won't sell me as meat on a stick. 12:34 < strangewarp> Lots of good musicians, if you can stand some quantity of hipster bullshit, apparently 12:34 < strangewarp> (if you care about that sort of thing) 12:40 < kanzure> alright! level 100 charizard. hell yeah 12:41 < Omega> strangewarp: what is "hipster bullshit"? 12:43 < strangewarp> I use the term sarcastically, because I don't really buy into that folk-demon, but sometimes you'll find an underground musician who's a critical darling, and yet completely boring.. so, that. 12:46 < Omega> but I don't know what you're describing with it 12:46 < Omega> what kind of music is "hipster bullshit" 12:49 < Moktato> Omega: you probably haven't heard of it 12:50 < strangewarp> Had to think about it for a minute.. but, I think, no kind. Or potentially, any band you might be tempted, like me, to take a sarcastic swipe at. In which case: young people being artsy in obnoxious ways instead of interesting ways. A common target is indie metal bands, which I think is funny.. 12:50 < Moktato> what a great name for a band 12:51 < Omega> strangewarp: but then the terms loses all its meaning, it basically means "stuff I don't like". 12:51 < Omega> Which is hardly descriptive. 12:51 < Moktato> "I'm listening to Hipster Bullshit, it's pretty new.." 12:52 < strangewarp> Omega: Voila! :p 12:52 < Moktato> criticizing hipsters is a hipster's favorite activity 12:53 < Moktato> it's a bit like "The Game" 12:53 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-26-134.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:54 < strangewarp> I think the entire "hipster" thing is a mirage, since everyone who gets accused of it denies it; and instead it's somthing convenient for people to compare themselves to.. 12:55 < strangewarp> Well, there are the people who ironically declare themselves hipsters, and that's either really clever or really awful, I'm not sure. 12:56 < sylph_mako> I think it's a conspiracy, a meme propagated by capital to keep people from anti-capitalistic sentiments. Not really. It would be neat though. I shouldn't have said that. 12:57 < bkero> They definitely exist. It's just another pathetic subculture. 12:57 < Omega> Aren't a lot of hipsters anti-capistalists though? 12:57 < bkero> at least some in the punk subculture tried to do something though 12:57 < bkero> and thus begat culturejamming and adbusters 12:57 < Omega> bkero: Hmm, what makes them pathetic? 12:58 < bkero> Omega: it's not anticapitalist at all 12:58 < sylph_mako> yeah that's the point. 12:58 < sylph_mako> The hatred is propagated along with the meme. So that people think "I never want to be like that" 12:59 < bkero> There's nothing that differentiates it between any other elitist subculture 12:59 < bkero> except the self-referential paradox 12:59 < sylph_mako> "I'm going to buy cheap bear and recycled clothing. I'm going to buy non-mainstream goods to battle monopolies" 12:59 < sylph_mako> "Wait no I'm not, then I'd be a filthy hipster" 12:59 < Omega> "I'm going to make my own clothes" 12:59 < bkero> Hipsters dont make their own clothes. 12:59 < Omega> The wikipedia article said they did 13:00 < bkero> I can appreciate a DIY sentiment, but ipsters are not artisans. 13:00 < bkero> far me it from me to challenge a wikipedia article about the doctines of hipsterdom. 13:01 < Omega> Well, you could you know, give us a definition then? 13:01 < Omega> So we're talking about the same thing. 13:04 < Omega> Or does hipster just mean "people you don't like"? 13:05 < bkero> I've usually gone with the composite of reading wikipedia, urbandictionary, and what I see in everyday life in hipster central (Portland). 13:05 < sylph_mako> Portland! No shit! My counterpart remarked on the hipster density when she was living there. 13:07 < bkero> It's critical. 13:08 < sylph_mako> Something's gonna go down soon? 13:08 < strangewarp> I watched a documentary on harsh noise music, set in Portland. Lots of people fixated on obscure interests there, apparently.. 13:21 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-87-105-21-246.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:28 < kanzure> are we seriously discussing the finer points of hipster theory 13:29 < kanzure> or are we only discussing it ironically, i can't tell 13:30 < strangewarp> I can't either. I'm scared kanzure 13:34 < archels> Could someone grab this PDF for me? http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/TVCG.2011.55 13:34 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-81-161.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:35 < kanzure> "A Neuron Membrane Mesh Representation for Visualization of Electrophysiological Simulations" 13:35 < kanzure> "We present a process to automatically generate three-dimensional mesh representations ... from nonuniform morphological measurements" 13:35 < kanzure> oh, coordinates and points 13:35 < archels> I just want to look at pretty pictures. ^_^ 13:36 < kanzure> yeh hold on my connection is being bogged down by another paper upload at the moment 13:36 < kanzure> done.. 13:36 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/2011-12-27.txt 13:37 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/backups/pde5inhibitorsandantiageingcgmpnostemcellmobilisat.zip 13:37 < kanzure> although the individual files are also in longevity/ 13:37 < archels> oh it worked via a different ieee URL? weird 13:38 < archels> computer.org vs. ieeecomputersociety.org 13:38 < kanzure> pass it over 13:38 < archels> Now you're asking me for the paper? :P 13:39 < strages_> kanzure: thank you for compiling collections of all these papers 13:40 < archels> I think this might be it -> http://synthesis-simulator.com/ 13:40 < kanzure> archels: if you already have it, it's easier than me firing up ssh sessions to random academic servers 13:40 < archels> Hm no, that's just one of the co-author dudes. 13:40 < archels> kanzure: 1 sec 13:42 < kanzure>