--- Log opened Mon Jan 09 00:00:07 2012
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07:58 <@kanzure> haha petitions
07:58 <@kanzure> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/fund-life-extension-research/1C3lny5M
07:58 <@kanzure> "signing or logging in is totally a substitute for working extremely hard on biohacking!"
08:01 < Lucas_> it is the best people that lack technical knowledge can do, I suppose
08:24 <@kanzure> just a lame landing page for now http://cubify.com/
08:24 <@kanzure> but i think it's a thingiverse clone
08:24 <@kanzure> Lucas_: sure, if you like making up excuses..
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08:30 <@kanzure> http://cameronneylon.net/blog/ip-contributions-to-scientific-papers-by-publishers-an-open-letter-to-rep-maloney-and-issa/
08:31 <@kanzure> hi robde
08:31 < robde> hi
08:32 <@kanzure> "Rather than pay up front for publication services, we currently give away the intellectual property in our papers in exchange for publication."
08:32 <@kanzure> heh, well at least the copyright license
08:32 <@kanzure> although it's true that the IP is being "given up" to the publisher
08:33 < Lucas_> @kanzure: I am sure you've tried to get people interested in this stuff to get working, but I doubt it would happen
08:33 <@kanzure> eh? "HR3699 prohibits federal agencies from supporting publishers to move to a transparent service based model"
08:34 <@kanzure> Lucas_: i am very picky when i am trying to find people that can help,
08:34 <@kanzure> for instance, "some biomedical engineer makes an open source 3d printer" is someone i would talk with (jmil)
08:34 <@kanzure> but not "someone who i would need to spend thousands of hours to get to an appropriate technology level"
08:35 < robde> i'm writing a small essay about anthropologic ethics of human enhancement for university. that's how I've found this irc channel :) do you have some rare gems about that topics?
08:35 <@kanzure> hrmm "The Research Works Acts prohibits any such process. In doing so it actively prevents publishers from moving towards business models that are appropriate for today’s world."
08:35 <@kanzure> robde: sure, there's actually been anthropologists in this channel before
08:35 <@kanzure> robde: if you want to analyze the logs over the past few years, see http://gnusha.org/logs/
08:35 <@kanzure> study me all you want, baby
08:38 < Lucas_> robde:  http://discuss.biohack.me/
08:38 <@kanzure> Lucas_: i don't think that's too relevant
08:38 <@kanzure> grinders? really?
08:39 < Lucas_> is he just interested in ethics?
08:39 <@kanzure> no, grinders tend to have an overly developed fascination with implanting-things-for-implanting-things' sake
08:40 < Lucas_> perhaps Lepht does, but not anyone at biohack
08:41 <@kanzure> "overly developed" should be "over-developed"
08:42 < Lucas_> the things we implant, or wish to implant, have an actual use
08:42 < Lucas_> body modders implant for the sake of implanting
08:46 < robde> kanzure: whats a good tool for analysing logs?
08:47 <@kanzure> robde: are you, by any chance, on a non-windows sytem?
08:47 <@kanzure> *system
08:47 < Urchin> what are grinders?
08:47 <@kanzure> Urchin: http://grinding.be/
08:47 < robde> kanzure: yes
08:47 <@kanzure> this is probably a bad link Urchin.. uhm.
08:48 < Urchin> I'm more into computers and mind uploading
08:48 <@kanzure> robde: one sec, let me .tar.gz the files up
08:48 <@kanzure> i was going to show you how to download each file, but nevermind
08:49 < robde> kanzure: there was a tar.gz which I downloaded
08:49 <@kanzure> that's from 2011-01.. almost a year old
08:49 < robde> kanzure: oh. you are right
08:50 < Urchin> htop?
08:51 < Urchin> I only have recent logs
08:52 < Lucas_> Urchin:  Basically "DIY transhumanists"
08:53 <@kanzure> Lucas_: that's not true at all..
08:53 <@kanzure> grinders tend to be body modders
08:53 < Lucas_> and what are DIY transhuamnists?
08:54 < Urchin> I'm not particularly intersted in body modds
08:54 <@kanzure> Lucas_: they tend to be less interested in the artsy/"edgy-for-attention" piercing scene
08:54 < Urchin> I'd take an eyetap, but not much more
08:55 <@kanzure> i.e., some are versed in biohacking and molecular biology, data tracking, and performance enhancement of one sort or another
08:55 < Lucas_> the science required to bring about the future envisioned by  many transhumanists are far off, so we go for the science that have already been done, and cheap technology that can easily be implanted or interfaced with
08:56 <@kanzure> um, that's not what i see
08:56 < Lucas_> that is our basic belief, Urchin
08:56 < Lucas_> what do you make of us, then?
08:56 <@kanzure> you're welcome to claim that, but why would you associate yourself with them ?
08:57 <@kanzure> what i mean is that the broader grinder message is not what you're saying
08:57 < Lucas_> because they are the only people I know building things that interface directly with people
08:57 <@kanzure> robde: http://gnusha.org/logs/hplusroadmap-2012-01-09.tar.gz
08:57 <@kanzure> Lucas_: maybe you should meet more people ;)
08:58 < Urchin> I'm willing to go to the extreme, but I'm not all that interested in upgrading my body, mind, yes, but body, not so much
08:58 < Lucas_> kanzure: please, give me references
08:58 <@kanzure> Urchin: your brain is part of your body
08:58 <@kanzure> Lucas_: any of the diy transhumanists
08:58 < Lucas_> Urchin:  it's the same machine, just different parts
08:58 <@kanzure> like eighter
08:58 < Urchin> I'd preffer to be uploaded
08:59 <@kanzure> Urchin: that doesn't exist
08:59 < Urchin> so it would not be a part of my body
08:59 < Urchin> well, yeah, I know, and it sucks
08:59 < Lucas_> both body and mind must be strong and adaptable
08:59 <@kanzure> i'm pretty sure he thinks his mind is separate from his body Lucas_
08:59 <@kanzure> which is known to be false..
09:00 < Lucas_> I know, I'm just offering a contrary point of view
09:01 < Lucas_> anyway, it looks like I am not a "grinder", then
09:01 <@kanzure> are you building something that i don't know about
09:02 < Lucas_> yes
09:02 < Lucas_> I figured you enjoy surprises
09:04 < Urchin> I'm well aware of my mind being a product of my brain's activity, but I find that to be a, hopefully, temporary condition, untill mind uploading comes around
09:05 < Lucas_> We must do the best we can with what we have until it becomes available
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09:07 < Urchin> well, yes
09:08 < Urchin> though I'm not inclined to implant anything metal for safety reasons
09:08 < robde> kanzure: your archive is somehow corrupted
09:09 <@kanzure> i bet i did something stupid
09:10 < Lucas_> Is there any sort of augmentation that you would go for?
09:11 <@kanzure> robde: try again http://gnusha.org/logs/hplusroadmap-2012-01-09.tar.gz
09:11 <@kanzure> Urchin: tons of people implant metal
09:11 <@kanzure> like for bone setting
09:11 <@kanzure> or for making war fighting machines like wolverine..
09:13 < Urchin> yeah, I know
09:13 < Urchin> I'm downloading those logs myself
09:14 < Urchin> robde: do you even have an archiver that can open .tar.gz?
09:14 < robde> urchin: yes.
09:18 < robde> ah the first file is everything together. I just loaded it into my standard editor. i'm surprised it manages it :D
09:18 <@kanzure> that's also old- that was prior to the logs being split up by day; or the file i used while i was splitting up the logs by day
09:32 < Urchin> kanzure: that's your sever?
09:36 < robde> this question might sound a bit flat, but how does h+ actually think about the possibility that there will be mad people, misfits who could do serious harm to life on our planet?
09:38 < robde> what are ideas to approach this problem?
09:38 < Lucas_> robde: who is the question directed to?
09:38 < jrayhawk> Vinter claims our capacity to do good scales better with technology than our capacity to do evil
09:39 <@kanzure> Urchin: yes it's my server.. sort of
09:39 <@kanzure> it's my serveri nstance
09:40 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: haha, i read that as "Vinge" not "Vinter" so i was very confused
09:40 <@kanzure> robde: there are already mad people who can do serious harm to our planet
09:40 < jrayhawk> err, venter
09:40 < jrayhawk> whatever that guy's name is
09:41 <@kanzure> robde: in fact, i would argue that space technology and transhuman tech is absolutely essential to mitigating the effects of "a sole mad man destroying the planet"
09:41 < Lucas_> I agree with kanzure
09:42 < Lucas_> hopefully we can one day find a way to not only increase our intelligence, but our empathy
09:44 < robde> so this transition time will probably the biggest risk humanity will ever be in
09:44 <@kanzure> oh geeze he believes in risks
09:46 < Lucas_> why do you believe this to be so, robde?
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09:48 < robde> because, as I said, I think, there will be always people who act against humanity
09:49 < robde> and technology will enable everyone to be extremely powerful
09:53 < Lucas_> the bow spawned leather hide and scale armor, which spawned the spear and sword sword, which spawned heavier forms of armer (chain, plate, etc.).  Ancient armor was overthrown by the invention of the firearm, and that too, albeit in the form of tactics (and later armor) was thwarted
09:54 < Lucas_> such is the nature of technology.  Where a weapon is created, a countermeasure is sure to follow
09:55 <@kanzure> Lucas_: that's poetic, but not necessarily true..
09:55 < robde> these technologies only had a very local effect
09:56 < Lucas_> nuclear weapons have a very large effect, yet there are kenetic kill weapons designed to knock them out of the sky
09:59 < jrayhawk> that don't work
10:00 < Lucas_> ?
10:01 <@kanzure> Lucas_: i think it's more important to make sure you build a civilization that doesn't die if there's a single nuke, single asteroid, etc.
10:05 < Lucas_> true, but could people in the 19th century predict something like the nuclear bomb?  The shift in infrastructure would have been immense
10:06 <@kanzure> in the 19th century, civilization was already big enough to not be destroyed by a single nuke
10:06 < Lucas_> ensuring the survival of the species is a multi-generational project, but the technologies capable of wiping us out are invented so quickly that we can only really change strategy or create a counterweapon
10:06 <@kanzure> but a single plague took out 40-60% of the population for most of humanity's lifetime
10:07 <@kanzure> i don't really classify 'space habitat' as "a counterweapon" here, but whatev
10:08 < Lucas_> rodge: Though Kanzure and I argue finer details, we both agree that space colonization should be top priority
10:08 < Lucas_> Kanzure: that is more of a change in strategy, if anything
10:08 < jrayhawk> communicable disease relies on network density, and evil acts rely on network sparsity, so we lose either way!
10:09 <@kanzure> haha "evil deeds rely on network sparsity"
10:09 <@kanzure> wait, what?
10:09 < Lucas_> nvm
10:10 <@kanzure> why would increasing sparsity increase evil?
10:11 < jrayhawk> correlation, not causation
10:11 <@kanzure> well, why would it be correlated with increasing successful-evil-deeds
10:14 < Lucas_> perhaps he meant the magnitude of it's effects?
10:18 < jrayhawk> good-networking synergizes more than evil-networking, so evil has a higher relative power in poorly-networked systems
10:19 < jrayhawk> or something like that
10:29 < jrayhawk> (this would depend on how you frame the concept of evil, of course. denial, deception, greed, powermongering, and hate all inherently interface fairly poorly, at least.)
10:34 <@kanzure> http://thingiverse.com/ new ui
10:34 <@kanzure> meh http://www.thingiverse.com/api
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10:56 < jrayhawk> i am a little surprised nobody wants to poke at my argument
11:22 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i just don't see how a nuke has a higher relative power in a poorly-networked system,
11:22 <@kanzure> doesp oorly-networked mean connections-unsaturated or "has no network"
11:27 < jrayhawk> either's rhetorically fine
11:30 < jrayhawk> what state do you think is the most likely to use a nuke in the next five years, and which state is the most poorly networked?
11:31 < jrayhawk> though, once again, correlation is not causation
11:42 < jrayhawk> and, of course, the biggest story of acute network disruption in the nuclear era, the dissolution of an empire of 300m and 22m square kilometers, resulted in a lot of rumors of missing nukes.
11:44 < jrayhawk> fortunately, once again due to poor networking, even once you have acquisition dealt with, posession, maintenance, and utilization in pursuit of denial, deception, greed, powermongering, and hate are still fairly unlikely to work out.
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11:50 < jrayhawk> your statement could be rephrased as "i just don't see how an artifact of a highly-networked system has higher relative power in a poorly-networked system"
11:51 < Lucas_> luckily enough for us, most non state actors that would use nukes or other "network killers" irrationally don't have the know how to maintain such weapons
11:51 <@kanzure> i should send edward you a mug that says "world's best agent"
11:51 <@kanzure> and get the diybio community to signi t
11:51 < jrayhawk> back of mug: "please don't arrest us :("
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11:52 <@kanzure> back of mug: the picture pulled from the fbi site,
11:53 <@kanzure> oh i can't find it anymore
11:53 <@kanzure> damn
11:57 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: http://web.archive.org/web/20080708235522/http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/images/hrtppe.jpg
11:57 <@kanzure> that used to be the image on their bioterror task force website
12:00 < Lucas_> win
12:00 < jrayhawk> d'awww, that sort of quaint scaremongering crusading machismo almost makes me miss the bush era
12:00 < Lucas_> kanzure, what are your current projects?
12:00 < Lucas_> are you working on anything as well jrayhawk?
12:00 <@kanzure> Lucas_: classified
12:01 < Lucas_> I thought everything you do is open source?
12:01 < Lucas_> statement, not a question, excuse me
12:02 < jrayhawk> well, see, a man's gotta eat
12:02 < jrayhawk> and he hasn't worked out how to metabolize code yet
12:02 < jrayhawk> maybe some day
12:06 < jrayhawk> working on: learning SQL
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12:08 < jrayhawk> i bored him to death with that answer
12:08 < jrayhawk> i would say "better him than me", but in this case i am not convinced
12:16 <@kanzure> who is learning sql?
12:16 <@kanzure> oh, that's what you're working on?
12:16 <@kanzure> you disappoint me, how do you not know sql
12:19 < jrayhawk> i have never needed a general complex data relation or multiply-indexed data engine before
12:20 <@kanzure> or "i have always just used dictionaries of dictionaries of dictionaries with multiple inexplicable keys"
12:23 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: just don't abuse LEFT INNER JOINs
12:31 < jrayhawk> all i need is multi-process low-latency access to one multi-indexed nonvolatile table of maaaaybe ten million immutable records with one multi-column uniqueness constraint
12:32 <@kanzure> http://makerbot.com/blog/2012/01/09/introducing-the-makerbot-replicator/
12:32 < jrayhawk> i don't need foreign keys or stored procedures or multi-language abstraction or even multi-host connectivity!
12:33 < jrayhawk> the fact that only postgres or oracle or db2 is really suited to such a usecase is kinda sad
12:33 < jrayhawk> i would vastly prefer something simpler
12:33 <@kanzure> mongodb? redis? hacked up memcache?
12:35 < jrayhawk> mongodb actually looks useful
12:35 < jrayhawk> thanks, maybe i can avoid SQL after all
12:36 <@kanzure> my jrayhawk calibration is out of alignment
12:36 <@kanzure> i sorta assumed you knew about mongodb
12:36 <@kanzure> jules definitely should..
12:37 < jrayhawk> i think he is of the "PostgreSQL does a superset of all that and does it more scalably, why would I want something worse" school of thought
13:02 < jrayhawk> which would be compelling except SQL is a painfully cumbersome language
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15:57 < Spakz> Hello all
16:02 < SDr> hi Spakz
16:02 < Spakz> How's it going?
16:02 < SDr> awesome! :)
16:03 < Spakz> That's good to hear! Why so good?
16:05 < SDr> oO   MU (invalid question: it depends on the axiom that life, by default, might be sucky, with which I'm strongly disagreeing with)
16:07 < Spakz> So awesome is your baseline, then?
16:11 < SDr> yup :)
16:12 < Spakz> Well, good to hear none the less
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16:43 < Spakz> I found this while searching around. Here's a free book on phylogenics http://www.rjr-productions.org/Networks/index.html
16:43 < Spakz> I haven't had a chance to read much of it yet, but it seems pretty good. Don't know if others might be interested
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 10 00:00:08 2012