--- Log opened Mon Jan 30 00:00:38 2012
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09:38 <@kanzure> undetectable technology http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2012/01/undetectable_te.php
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09:48 < strages_work> kanzure: so like living structures, etc?
09:49 < strages_work> I can still see people calling "magic!" upon witnessing such things making Clark's original statement still valid.
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12:02 < archels> kanzure: 'gaia'? 'nature'? What a crock.
12:04 <@kanzure> heh :)
12:04 <@kanzure> he's a old man, give him some slack
12:07 < archels> dreaming is okay, but don't try to sell it as science
12:13 < rkos> i think it would be best to try to figure out life on this planet before starting to speculate about life on other planets
12:13 < rkos> if you want alien technology just look at your hand, how much do you really understand about what goes on in there?
12:14 < archels> Finding out about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe is pretty orthogonal to understanding life here on Earth.
12:14 < archels> It's almost as if you're saying that we should only do low-risk, low-returns research.
12:15 < rkos> well no, but it is pretty hard to get any kind of handle on thinking about aliens
12:16 < rkos> seems just so far out of reach to me
12:17 < rkos> like if life evolves somewhere else is it even going to lead to anything remotely comparable to us
12:17 < archels> SETI *might*'ve come up with something, if luck would have had it
12:17 < rkos> what is life anyways, what is there to look for out there?
12:17 < archels> Of course now we're being a bit overenthousiastic in identifying exoplanets...
12:18 < archels> let's not get too philosophical :)
12:18 < Mokstar> whatever drives the technology is fine by me
12:19 < rkos> yeah, i've just been reading schrödingers essays "what is life?" recently
12:19 < archels> ah, cool
12:19 < Mokstar> if they wanna build a quantum computer to figure out tomorrow's sport's scores, that's just peachy IMO
12:19 < Mokstar> just so long as they don't hog it :p
12:23 < rkos> the public has been losing its interest in space lately though
12:24 < rkos> it's all about virtual space and inner space these days...
12:24 < archels> apparently not, what with Gingrich's big plans
12:25 < rkos> is that the moon base plan?
12:25 < rkos> that sounded nice
12:25 < archels> yeh
12:25 < archels> unrealistic, but it shows the idea is alive and well
12:26 < rkos> well its probably best to be always aiming a bit high
12:29 < archels> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouRbkBAOGEw
12:29 < Stee|> gingrich is driving on american jingoism unfortunately
12:30 < Stee|> granted, many would call me a jingoist
12:30 < Mokstar> I'm a jengaist
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13:20 < rkos> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/sb2000287
13:20 <@kanzure> what is it?
13:21 <@kanzure> links that aren't self-explanatory require an explanation, rkos :/
13:27 < rkos> it just discusses the possibilities of synthetic biology
13:28 < rkos> not that extensively though
13:29 < rkos> but its where im putting my money, or my life since im a poor student with no money
13:30 < uniqanomaly__> "Gingrich vows to ban embryonic stem-cell research, questions in vitro practices" seriously, people with opinions like that should be prohibited from using any tech being derivative of research like this
13:30 < rkos> the possibility of using designed organisms to efficiently produce chemicals
13:30 < uniqanomaly__> by law ;>
13:31 <@kanzure> hm, i'm more popular than aubrey on google+
13:31 < uniqanomaly__> that would be one badass law
13:31 < rkos> though my pie in the sky dream about is that our bodies are produced by cells very energy effiecently, so if you just were good enough at controlling cells you could produce anything rivaling the most complex animal bodies, not just industrial chemicals/pharmaceuticals
13:34 < Stee|> bah, biology :P
13:36 <@kanzure> http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ostp/library/publicaccess
13:37 <@kanzure> i'm reading responses to OSTP
13:37 <@kanzure> about open access policies
13:37 <@kanzure> http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/Scholarly%20Pubs%20Comments%201-100.pdf
13:37 <@kanzure> just random emails that people sent in. some of these are essays?
13:39 <@kanzure> huh the freepatentsonline person wrote in with something
13:40 < rkos> whats the argument against open access?
13:41 <@kanzure> hrm there's also an email from paul fernhout
13:41 <@kanzure> hah. hi paul..
13:42 <@kanzure> rkos: look for "http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/Scholarly%20Pubs%20Comments%201-100.pdf"
13:42 <@kanzure> that one is against open access, i think
13:42 <@kanzure> oops
13:43 <@kanzure> "onomic climate, the income generated from copyrighted publications cannot be overstated"
13:43 <@kanzure> the one with that line^
13:44 <@kanzure> or the one that says "threatened by access policies that do not take these costs into account, and it is critically important tha"
13:48 < Stee|> Ugh
13:48 < Stee|> if it's funded by taxpayers, it should be open access
13:48 < Stee|> barring certain classified publications
13:49 <@kanzure> "but it will disrupt the science industry's stability in the US and cause us to lose our competitive advantage as a nation!"
13:49 <@kanzure> that seems to be the argument that anti-open-access people sent in.
13:49 < Stee|> it will increase our competitive advantage
13:49 < Stee|> which is why we should do it
13:50 <@kanzure> duh..
13:53 < rkos> publishing companies are clearly the thing that makes the US economy run...
13:55 <@kanzure> clearly
13:55 <@kanzure> "without these publishing companies, our scientific excellence will be compromised!"
13:55 <@kanzure> those must be some amazing editors huh
14:00 < Stee|> you mean volunteer peer reviewers?
14:00 < Stee|> yes, I know there are editors as well
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14:22 < Stee|> waiting for this phone call is killing me
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14:26 <@kanzure> http://www.longecity.org/forum/page/index.html/_/science/projects/cryopreservation-fundraiser-r36
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16:24 <@kanzure> hi ChillyVanilly
16:24 <@kanzure> jmil: yo. how goes it?
16:25 < jmil> pretty good. you?
16:25 < ChillyVanilly> yo
16:25 <@kanzure> just fine, did you get stuff published yet
16:25 <@kanzure> people in here have been asking about your cell printing head
16:50 <@kanzure> jmil: any updates
16:51 < jmil> ah, no i'm not printing cells directly
16:51 < jmil> but it could work with that
16:51 < jmil> but i don't think that's feasible at all
16:51 <@kanzure> i thought you had some sort of extruder
16:51 < jmil> ya i'm printing a special kind of material to make perfusable tissues
16:51 < jmil> with a patterned vasculature
16:52 < jmil> that resembles blood vessel networks
16:52 <@kanzure> Stee|: was it you who was asking about this
16:52 < jmil> but it's not direct cell printing
16:52 < jmil> primary cells will not survive cell printing
16:52 < jmil> primary cells like hepatocytes (liver) and beta cells (pancreas)
16:52 < jmil> they won't survive
16:52 < jmil> and neural cells
16:52 < jmil> shear stresses are too high
16:53 < jmil> so i have a different approach
16:53 <@kanzure> hrm is the paper out yet
16:53 < jmil> where those cells can be formed into perfusable tissues
16:53 < jmil> no not out yet
16:53 < jmil> hopefully this year!
16:53 < jmil> we are resubmitting in february
16:53 < jmil> got more data
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16:53 <@kanzure> yikes what was the rejection reason
16:53 <@kanzure> hey nmz787
16:54 < nmz787> hi kanzure
16:54 < jmil> kanzure: a cell printing guy didn't like it lol
16:54 < jmil> but he's a moron
16:54 < jmil> and we are rebutting
16:54 < jmil> and anyway peer review takes time
16:54 <@kanzure> nmz787: jmil is talking about his reprap extruder for printing a vasculature
16:54 < nmz787> oh, sweet!
16:55 < nmz787> piezo or heat dispensed (i can't remmeber the term, but its when you heat the chamber behind the nozzle to increase pressure to force the ink out)
16:55 < jmil> cell printing has been around for a decade or more. they still don't print primary cells or give us organs
16:55 < nmz787> 'ink'
16:55 < jmil> nmz787: i'm using heated syringe and air pressure.
16:55 < jmil> no cells
16:56 < nmz787> so you're printing a structure then seeding it?
16:56 < jmil> something like that
16:57 < jmil> but the vasculature is multiscale and cylindrical just like human organs
16:57 <@kanzure> is this a 3d vasculature
16:57 < jmil> yes
16:57 <@kanzure> hrm
16:57 < nmz787> have non-cylindrical vasculatures been tried ?
16:57 < jmil> sure
16:57 < nmz787> oo
16:57 < jmil> lots of stuff has been tried
16:57 < nmz787> why?
16:58 <@kanzure> oh is it just a plastic infused with protein
16:58 <@kanzure> and you just print a 3d mesh blob
16:58 <@kanzure> no, nevermind.
16:58 < jmil> why what?
16:58 < nmz787> isn't the whole volume to surface area thing of spheres a gradeschool idea?
16:58 < jmil> i dunno what you're asking nmz787
16:59 < nmz787> why would anyone try printing a pipe that isn't cylindrical
16:59 < jmil> oh
16:59 < jmil> because they couldn't figure out how to print cylinders
16:59 < jmil> :D
16:59 < nmz787> lol
16:59 < nmz787> ok
16:59 < nmz787> fair enough
16:59 < Stee|> nmz: The project I'm working on might be able to print complex organs in 15 years
16:59 < jmil> cell printers and layer-by-layer are the two technologies that are out there
16:59 < jmil> they deposit everything that is NOT the vasculature
17:00 < jmil> so it builds up layer by layer and the manufacturing does not scale
17:00 < jmil> Stee|: reprap based?
17:00 < Stee|> no
17:00 < Stee|> electrohydrodynamic jet printing
17:00 < jmil> my method is a new third option
17:00 <@kanzure> http://reprap.org/wiki/Reprappable-inkjet
17:01 < jmil> Stee|: have you printed cells before with it?
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17:01 < Stee|> cells have been printed with it, but not our particular setup
17:01 < jmil> that's a lot of shear stresses. i've seen a couple papers about that kind of stuff
17:01 < jmil> what are you doing with it right now?
17:02 < Stee|> trying to build an ejection to final shape model
17:02 < Stee|> that will allow us to closed loop control based off monitoring current
17:02 < Stee|> for higher precision in the sub 1um scale
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17:02 < jmil> nice!
17:03 < jmil> Stee|: how come droplet based instead of photolithography if resolution is what you're after?
17:03 < nmz787> so seems like the challenge with printing the vasculature is A) finding the right material that takes over as the ECM, and doesn't block cell:cell interactions, limit perfusion (i.e. plastic would probably) B) modelling the required vasculature for an organ (this maybe could be ripped from microtome data of the organ of interest)
17:03 < nmz787> then resolution
17:03 < nmz787> of the printer
17:04 < Stee|> jmil: we can do more materials
17:04 < jmil> nmz787: yes that's very close to it
17:04 < Stee|> also multi-material nozzles eventually
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17:05 < jmil> nmz787: i have the microCT -> 3d printed vasculature feasibility already done. that will be closer to 20 yrs though :D
17:05 < jmil> because of the funding required
17:05 < jmil> but proof of concept is done
17:05 < Stee|> how much funding?
17:06 < jmil> it's not known yet. lol.
17:06 < jmil> i'm trying to get a real job. then i'll be applying for real grants. then, we'll see.
17:06 < jmil> i'd say 20 years it will be there. conservatively.
17:07 < jmil> if i get a job this year i will be able to do a lot
17:07 < jmil> Stee|: cool about your printer
17:08 < delinquentme> nmz787, sounds like stuff for organovo
17:09 < jmil> delinquentme: they are doing cell printing
17:09 < jmil> different...
17:09 < nmz787> thanks delinquentme... I'll send them a resume, since I need a job after my degree finishes in 4/5 months
17:09 < delinquentme> yeah you guys are looking at strictly vasculature?
17:10 < jmil> nmz787: what's ur degree in?
17:10 < nmz787> biotech, minor in bioinformatics (i've been programming and using linux for 10+ years, and have over a year of uni-level CS)
17:10 < jmil> nmz787: where at?
17:11 < nmz787> RIT, Rochester NY
17:11 < jmil> cool
17:11 < nmz787> yeah its not a bad program
17:12 < jmil> ya i got family in rochester. was just there a couple weeks ago :D
17:12 < nmz787> a lot of mixed reviews, but I got a lot out of it
17:12 < nmz787> cool
17:12 < nmz787> its been a crazy winter... snow one week, 50 deg F the next
17:12 < jmil> true
17:13 < Stee|> oh
17:13 < Stee|> nmz787, I'm at RPI
17:14 < Stee|> jmil, I'm hoping to start a VC group for h+ type techs someday in the mid future.
17:14 < jmil> Stee|: nice
17:14 < nmz787> cool
17:14 < jmil> who are you working with at RPI Stee| ?
17:14 < jmil> or are you faculty there?
17:15 < Stee|> I'm working with the mech e department
17:15 < Stee|> I'm a graduate student
17:15 < Stee|> almost done, thank god
17:16 < Stee|> working with Sandipan Mishra and Samuel Johnson
17:16 < Stee|> err
17:16 < Stee|> Johnson Samuel
17:17 < jmil> cool
17:17 < delinquentme> nmz787, RIt is ?
17:18 < nmz787> Rochester Institute of Technology
17:18 < delinquentme> ahhh nice nice
17:18 < jmil> Stee|: what ya gonna do next, besides the VC group?
17:18 < nmz787> my gf got a job in NYC... good for her, but I'm not finding much of a job market for bio anything there
17:19 < jmil> nmz787: ya bio is tough
17:19 < jmil> boston is huge in biotech
17:19 < nmz787> going to start looking for more programming/embedded software jobs
17:19 < jmil> nmz787: you said you like linux though?
17:19 < jmil> oh ya
17:19 < Stee|> jmil: I'm going to probably go be an engineer for the government for a while
17:19 < nmz787> yeah
17:19 < jmil> cool Stee| . NIH?
17:19 < Stee|> and then move into security/defense consulting, or forecast consulting
17:19 < Stee|> nope
17:19 < Stee|> DoD/Mil
17:19 < jmil> cool
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17:21 < nmz787> jmil, I just applied to a job as a 'linux server farm'... umm, farmer?
17:21 < jmil> lol
17:21 < kanzure> nmz787: what? no don't do that
17:21 < jmil> makerbot is hiring too, ya know...
17:21 < kanzure> makerbot never responds to me
17:22 < jmil> about what?
17:22 < kanzure> "hey dudes, i built a thingiverse clone, let me know"
17:22 < kanzure> nope. nothing.
17:22 < kanzure> for their obs.
17:22 < kanzure> *jobs
17:22 < nmz787> kanzure... need job to have $ to invest in my projects, or put away for if/when I want to do PhD
17:22 < kanzure> nmz787: don't send in applications. that never works.
17:22 < jmil> you built a thingiverse clone?
17:22 < kanzure> jmil: yes. i hate how thingiverse doesn't use git..
17:23 < jmil> oh ya lol
17:23 < jmil> kanzure: https://github.com/jmil/Thingiverse
17:24 < kanzure> is this just a scraper
17:24 < kanzure> yeh, i have some scrapers
17:24 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/thingiverse/
17:24 < jmil> ya just a scraper based off one i found posted on thingiverse
17:24 < jmil> oh nice!
17:25 < jmil> makerbot does one thing and they don't listen to anyone
17:25 < nmz787> kanzure: shoot me some emails to spam with my resume!
17:25 < jmil> evar
17:25 < kanzure> jmil: pretty much
17:25 < kanzure> nmz787: what?
17:25 < kanzure> oh you mean, people
17:25 < Stee|> nmz787, you do primarily bio?
17:25 < jmil> kanzure: i didn't understand your text above… you were writing makerbot about jobs too?
17:26 < kanzure> jmil: yes, all of my income is from contracting gigs so it's theoretically possible for makerbot to hire me if they want
17:26 < jmil> ah
17:27 < kanzure> we shouldn't have to all write scrapers to get thingiverse content :(
17:27 < kanzure> i know at least two other people who have done the same thing
17:28 < Stee|> kanzure, send me your resume?
17:28 < kanzure> jrayhawk: it looks like dot files vanished?
17:28 < kanzure> i had a .htaccess in ~/public_html/irc/
17:29 < jmil> kanzure: you could try to work with the webmaster directly. marty is pretty reasonable
17:29 < kanzure> or, why isn't my .htaccess in ~/public_html/ being respected
17:29 < nmz787> Stee|: the last internship i has was writing bioinformatics code... before that it was writing and debugging code related to embedded Texas Instruments DSP chips for a biomedical device (also worked with MATLAB, and GUI development in python and C#)... before that I was writing working on particle tracking software for a leukocyte/neutrophil cell adhesion/rolling modelling project
17:29 < kanzure> jmil: sure, i haven't tried to talk with him in a while. maybe i should.
17:29 < jmil> ya
17:29 < kanzure> Stee|: what for
17:29 < Stee|> so I can keep an eye out?
17:29 < jmil> their business model depends on advertising to pay for the site, so they may be against git in general because you wouldn't have the ads
17:29 < Stee|> nmz787: Lots of people are hiring embedded software people in defense
17:31 < nmz787> Stee|: a few more computer gigs before that, HCI stuff, general networking... and then at the very beginnning of my B.S. I worked with quorum sensing and environmental DNA libraries
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17:32 < nmz787> Stee|: most of the bio research at my school isn't interesting to me... so I've been focusing on the instrumentation end of things
17:32 < Stee|> Hmm
17:33 < Stee|> any preference to industry nmz787?
17:33 < nmz787> cancer research is great and all, but I don't want to pipette all day... I'd rather envision an assay and implement it in LabView-type GUI software... for the assay to be carried out in automation
17:33 < nmz787> not really
17:34 < nmz787> I'd like to stay away from huge conglomerate corp... i like small company dynamics... but gov labs seem to be a nice mix
17:34 < Stee|> MIT Lincoln Labs
17:34 < Stee|> uhh
17:34 < Stee|> Mitre is pretty sweet
17:34 < kanzure> there's a few open hardware guys at mitre
17:34 < Stee|> both of these have decent gpa requirements
17:35 < kanzure> gpa requirements? haha
17:35 < kanzure> why would you want to work somewhere that has gpa requirements *at all*
17:35 < Stee|> because these are the places that build the coolest shit, with only a couple exceptions
17:35 < Stee|> Raytheon, for example
17:35 < Stee|> 3.0 GPA req
17:35 < kanzure> gpa has nothing to do with coolness factor
17:35 < Stee|> this is true, but coolness factor places often require gpa
17:36 < Stee|> http://www.objet.com/COMPANY/Careers/
17:36 < kanzure> um
17:36 < nmz787> my gpa has dipped below 3.0 because I don't want to be in school anymore :(
17:36 < kanzure> sounds pretty lame to me, Stee|
17:36 < Stee|> exoskeletons
17:36 < kanzure> exoskeletons, but not any that you own
17:36 < kanzure> and all sorts of "Intellectual Property Rights" that will skullrape you
17:36 < kanzure> big deal
17:36 < Stee|> you're working on a project for the company, yes
17:36 < Stee|> you are one engineer among dozens
17:36 < kanzure> so how is that cool?
17:36 < kanzure> cog in the system?
17:36 < Stee|> Pushing the cutting edge of a field that's fucking sweet
17:37 < kanzure> that's their marketing talking
17:37 < nmz787> sometimes you need cogs though
17:37 < Stee|> sarcos doesn't have a ton of marketing
17:37 < nmz787> a car doesn't run without them
17:37 < nmz787> neither does a huge multi-arm project (i.e. bioengineered biofuels)
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17:39 < delinquentme> Stee|, Raytheon
17:39 < delinquentme> nice
17:39 < Stee|> that's not where I'm working
17:39 < delinquentme> build machines to continue powering killing people
17:39 < Stee|> I'm (probably) going to be working at a facility I'm not sure how much I can talk about
17:39 < delinquentme> more government
17:39 < delinquentme> ?
17:39 < Stee|> delinquentme: I'm cool with killing people as long as I perceive it as long term saving more lives
17:39 < Stee|> yeah
17:39 < delinquentme> im meh towrads it
17:40 < delinquentme> Stee|, ehh
17:40 < delinquentme> if an alien civ cam around they'd see us as a bunch of war mongering bickering children
17:40 < delinquentme> really
17:40 < Stee|> maybe :)
17:40 < eudoxia> you can't really be sure of that
17:40 < delinquentme> our biggest pursuit is beating each other
17:41 < Stee|> it's worked pretty well so far
17:41 < eudoxia> evolution bruh
17:41 < delinquentme> eudoxia, evolution in percieved state of scarcity
17:41 < kanzure> hi eudoxia
17:41 < delinquentme> and while I cant be sure of the alien thing
17:42 < delinquentme> we are a bunch of argumentative little children w little dick syndromes
17:42 < eudoxia> hi kanz, delinquentme
17:42 < eudoxia> I guess the Prisoner's Dilemma could be used as an argument for benevolence in aliens
17:43 < eudoxia> Frank Tipler does it so why the fuck not
17:43 < nmz787> a friend recently was thinking that out war-like nature is allowing us to kill off 'prune' inefficient societies, and that the more efficient societies are such because of technology
17:43 < kanzure> uhrm.
17:43 < kanzure> let's get back to work :P
17:44 < nmz787> said friend also was talking about how pooled wealth (i.e. the 1%) is actually good for society because we can then pursue more and more complex technology, which allows us to outcompete other societies, thus pushing the species forward as a whole
17:44 < Stee|> I'm waiting for my burrito
17:45 < delinquentme> kanzure,  <<<
17:45 < nmz787> I don't endorse said friend's idea!
17:45 < nmz787> but its interesting
17:45 < Stee|> nmz787: Pooled wealth is fine assuming a sufficiently high floor to societal wealth
17:45 < kanzure> nmz787: "pushing the species forward" is a very vague term
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17:49 < jrayhawk> kanzure: overrides are retarded; please use <Directory> or <Location> configs
17:49 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@cpe-24-94-5-223.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:51 < kanzure> jrayhawk: :(
17:51 < kanzure> jrayhawk: okay :(
17:51 < kanzure> yashgaroth: see backlog
17:52 < yashgaroth> I've been reading, you mean vasculature printing I assume?
17:53 < kanzure> sounds like it, jmil is still around i think
17:53 < jrayhawk> specifically, incurring dozens of failed (uncached) path lookups and potentially reconfiguring apache on *every request* is highly undesirable
17:53 < jrayhawk> as is the confusion it causes me when configuration is not in a config directory
17:55 < yashgaroth> jmil: so are you just printing the ECM and then seeding cells?
17:55 < jmil> no, not exactly
17:55 < jmil> printing the vasculature, then seeding the cells and ECM together
17:55 < jmil> around the vasculature
17:55 < yashgaroth> ahhh okay
17:56 < kanzure> hm there's a #homecmos
17:56 < jmil> one-step tissue fabrication from the cells' perspective. the cells never see multiple fabrication steps
17:56 < yashgaroth> did you have an model organ in mind?
17:56 < kanzure> http://en.qi-hardware.com/homecmos-logs/
17:58 < jmil> yashgaroth: all of them… :D
17:58 < jmil> mostly liver, pancreas, heart
17:58 < jmil> liver is what we're working on most right now
17:58 < yashgaroth> yeah that seems like the easiest complex organ
17:59 < jmil> if i get a job eventually i want to get to neurons. neurons won't survive cell printing. but they will survive my method
17:59 < jmil> yashgaroth: any others we should look at? lung? kidney?
17:59 < yashgaroth> skin would be good I'd think
18:00 < yashgaroth> as a 'starter' organ anyway
18:00 < jmil> ah skin's been done a long time ago
18:00 < yashgaroth> true, but not like this
18:00 < jmil> we're only looking at solid organs
18:00 < jmil> that can't be done in other ways
18:00 < yashgaroth> hmmm
18:00 < yashgaroth> bone?
18:01 < yashgaroth> probably without the marrow
18:01 < jmil> bone would be a really good one. but we don't have materials stiff enough to make rigid bone yet still liquidy enough to enfuse around the vasculature during casting
18:01 < jmil> could be cool though
18:02 < yashgaroth> pretty much just leaves intestines then
18:02 < jmil> intestines are not as needed because humans have more than they really need with todays food supply
18:02 < jmil> so we are doing solid organs
18:03 < yashgaroth> shitting in a bag must suck, but I get your point
18:03 < jmil> plus intestines could be made with the same technology anthony atala is using for urinary bladder regeneration
18:03 < jmil> oh colostomies are not because of lack of intestine… it's because of lack of muscle regeneration therapies
18:03 < jmil> muscle is what we are also doing
18:04 < kanzure> yeah i see lots of mesh+intestine stuff
18:04 < jmil> (sub from cardiac)
18:04 < yashgaroth> he's not the guy using decellularized animal organs is he?
18:04 < yashgaroth> muscle seems hard though
18:04 < jmil> he's the guy doing everything
18:04 < jmil> yashgaroth: that's why we're going to approach it
18:04 < jmil> getting aligned muscle fibers is hard
18:04 < jmil> but getting high cell density around perfusable channels in 3d is now easy
18:04 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i've had trouble figuring out the actual mechanism of hypergrowth in muscles
18:04 < jmil> so i figure i can iterate until i get there
18:05 < jmil> kanzure: hypergrowth?
18:05 < kanzure> i mean,
18:05 < yashgaroth> you mean myostatin activin follistatin 'roids etc?
18:05 < kanzure> um, what's the right term
18:05 < kanzure> yashgaroth: not quite
18:05 < yashgaroth> hypertrophy/plasia are the technical terms
18:05 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i mean exercise
18:05 < kanzure> hypertrophy, thanks
18:05 < jmil> a lot of people are studying the satellite cell -> muscle fiber differentiation pathway
18:05 < kanzure> anyway, nobody has actually confirmed that "breaking cell membranes means your muscles will grow!"
18:05 < kanzure> it's just folk shit
18:05 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/
18:05 < jmil> kanzure: what? people have shown that
18:06 < jmil> scientifically
18:06 < kanzure> show me the paper
18:06 < jmil> damaged muscle stimulates a ton of new pathways
18:06 < yashgaroth> if that worked, I could punch myself until I got abs
18:06 < kanzure> "damaged muscles"
18:06 < jmil> kanzure: lookup  irina conboy
18:06 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i volunteer you for the experiment ;)
18:06 < yashgaroth> to punch myself in the abs until I get abs? sounds good
18:07 < yashgaroth> I'd prefer gene transfer of follistatin fused to an Fc
18:08 < nmz787> or, if dexedrine stimulates the heart rate to increase, is that the same as cardio?
18:08 < kanzure> i'm satisfied with the modern explanation of muscle contraction (myosin/actin and such)
18:08 < kanzure> but not the damage theory..
18:08 < yashgaroth> it's the combination for sure
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18:08 < kanzure> there's a very thorough muscle contraction explanation that works down to the molecular level
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18:09 < yashgaroth> fuck man, I don't care how it works as long as we can manipulate it
18:09 < kanzure> if you know how it works, you can cause the same things using other methods
18:10 < yashgaroth> we don't necessarily need other methods, the current ones would work well
18:10 < yashgaroth> and if they don't work, there's an easy way to find out
18:10 < kanzure> "woul work well" - you're talking about our known-molecular-researchy-approaches, which i agee seem fine
18:10 < kanzure> but
18:11 < kanzure> i'm not prepared to say that's how exercise works
18:11 < yashgaroth> oh, certainly
18:12 < jmil> kanzure: injured muscle paper: 1.	Conboy IM, Conboy MJ, Smythe GM, Rando TA. Notch-mediated restoration of regenerative potential to aged muscle. Science 2003 Nov.;302(5650):1575–1577.
18:12 < jmil> notch signaling pathway
18:13 < yashgaroth> but even if we discover how it works, that won't necessarily give us a circulating factor we can inject to cause the effect
18:13 < nmz787> isn't NOTCH inplicated in some cancer too?
18:13 < jmil> notch is implicated in almost everything
18:13 < jmil> lol
18:13 < yashgaroth> don't worry, muscle doesn't get cancer :V
18:13 < jmil> that's another reason i'm going to study it
18:14 < jmil> yashgaroth: they are looking for the circulating factor
18:14 < jmil> they recently did a old/young experiment and proved circulating factors restore the regenerative potential of muscle
18:14 < kanzure> "regenerative potential"
18:14 < jmil> they're not sure yet if its cells or some other factor
18:14 < jmil> like a protein or metabolite
18:14 < kanzure> aha, see...
18:15 < jmil> they connected an old mouse to the bloodstream of a young mouse. crazy experiment.
18:15 < Stee|> If you want to test low risk things on someone doing high level muscular work, gimme a poke :P
18:15 < Stee|> I might volunteer
18:15 < yashgaroth> haha low risk
18:15 < jmil> lol
18:16 < nmz787> jmil: link/ref to the connected mouse paper?
18:16 < nmz787> regenerative centipede
18:16 < nmz787> ...
18:16 < jmil> 1.	Conboy IM, Conboy MJ, Wagers AJ, Girma ER, Weissman IL, Rando TA. Rejuvenation of aged progenitor cells by exposure to a young systemic environment. Nature 2005 Feb.;433(7027):760–764.
18:16 < Stee|> I don't want to risk my muscles too much :P
18:16 < jmil> crazy experiment
18:17 < yashgaroth> you'd probably be risking your testicles
18:17 < kanzure> Stee|: i'm very disappointed by how few transhumanists take anabolic steroids
18:18 < yashgaroth> but I don't waaaaanna hang out in the bodybuilding.com forums
18:18 < kanzure> some of the transhumanists are very much against steroids
18:18 < kanzure> which is absurd..
18:18 < yashgaroth> haha what why
18:18 < kanzure> i guess muscle doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things
18:18 < kanzure> yashgaroth: because "DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS"
18:18 < nmz787> roid rage is absurd?
18:18 < nmz787> lol
18:18 < kanzure> roid rage.. isn't that a D.A.R.E campaign
18:18 < yashgaroth> oh jesus that's not a real thing
18:18 < nmz787> what???
18:19 < nmz787> really?
18:19 < yashgaroth> they lied to you buddy
18:19 < kanzure> to keep you small :3
18:19 < Stee|> kanzure: I'd need some long term safety/efficacy papers
18:19 < Stee|> *also a lot are illegal
18:19 < nmz787> i'm with Stee|
18:19 < nmz787> on the papers
18:19 < kanzure> i'm p. sure i have some roid papers.. let's see
18:20 < kanzure> nope. not uploaded at the moment.. hrm
18:20 < nmz787> on the illegality... I want to find a country that I can proudly conduct whatever research I want
18:20 < kanzure> was looking through here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/
18:20 < yashgaroth> so...china?
18:20 < nmz787> not china
18:20 < kanzure> nmz787: there's a lot, but you won't exactly be able to "run across the street to get my pcr reagents refilled"
18:20 < yashgaroth> good luck then
18:20 < nmz787> right
18:21 < kanzure> here's some notes on roids i guess http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/drugs.txt
18:21 < kanzure> not very thorough
18:21 < yashgaroth> admittedly they'd be a safer if they were legal, as with most drugs
18:21 < kanzure> yashgaroth: read drugs.txt above
18:22 < kanzure> it's not the best but it's a start, since you don't want to bother with bodybuilding.com ;)
18:22 < Stee|> bb.com has some good stuff
18:22 < kanzure> hah there's one called stanozolol
18:22 < kanzure> stanozolololol
18:22 < Stee|> anyway, a lot of this stuff is size, and not as much strength
18:22 < kanzure> if you want strength you will use machines
18:22 < delinquentme> kanzure, bodybuilding
18:22 < Stee|> not really
18:22 < delinquentme> ! angie varona
18:23 < delinquentme> <3
18:23 < Stee|> if you want useful strength you use unsupported compound exercises
18:23 < Stee|> and vary between high rep and low rep
18:23 < Stee|> also speed work
18:23 < Stee|> and bodyweight work
18:23 < kanzure> yes but you're only going to bench 500-600 pounds max..
18:23 < kanzure> and that's at peak, peak physical fitness
18:23 < Stee|> yes, but you can move it a hell of a lot faster
18:23 < kanzure> well i should say beyond peak
18:24 < Stee|> as Bruce Lee once said about a man much larger than him
18:24 < Stee|> 'But can he use it as well as I can?'
18:24 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progression_of_the_bench_press_world_record
18:24 < kanzure> 2008 - "Ryan Kennelly presses 1075 lbs (488.64 kg)"
18:24 < kanzure> hrm.. 1075
18:24 < kanzure> i was way off. maybe i am thinking dead lift
18:24 < Stee|> no
18:24 < Stee|> dead is heavier
18:25 < Stee|> WR dead is like 1350
18:25 < kanzure> wtf.
18:25 < yashgaroth> but then you blow out your anus
18:25 < eudoxia> bwahahahah
18:25 < Stee|> my buddy has the highest deadlift for his age/weightclass in NY state
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18:25 < Stee|> I hang out with some competitive lifters :P
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18:25 < Stee|> sorry, it's only 1100
18:25 < yashgaroth> good you can get me some roids then
18:25 < kanzure> yeah
18:25 < kanzure> damn
18:25 < kanzure> hook a brother or two up
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18:26 < Stee|> none of my buddies use roids, but I can find out what their pre-workout is
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18:26 < kanzure> i'll pay for everyone in here
18:26 < yashgaroth> no I will
18:26 < kanzure> nope ask them for roids
18:26 < Stee|> we're not bodybuilders >_>
18:26 < kanzure> i also once offered to pay for noots for everyone in here
18:26 < kanzure> but nobody took me up on that
18:26 < Stee|> world record geared squat is 1300
18:26 < jmil> noots?
18:27 < Stee|> nootropics
18:27 < jmil> even if you take roids, you still have to work out to build
18:27 < Stee|> hmm
18:27 < jmil> they don't make your muscles build passively...
18:27 < yashgaroth> not really
18:27 < Stee|> my squat is only 350.
18:27 < jmil> and they make your balls shrink
18:28 < yashgaroth> lemme find that study, but groups on steroids or exercise were about equal in pure non-fat gain, ofc. both less than 'roids+exercise combined
18:28 < nmz787> they really make balls shrink?
18:28 < kanzure> such nerds, comparing squat statistics
18:28 < kanzure> nmz787: yes
18:28 < Stee|> y'all never had a squat like this :P
18:28 < nmz787> hmm, I wonder if that decreases the pain from getting kicked there?
18:28 < jmil> nope
18:29 < jmil> ball kicking pain is due to involuntary muscle contraction
18:29 < jmil> not nerve endings in the testicle
18:29 < nmz787> presentation slides on squatting vs sitting: http://www.slideshare.net/nmz787/different-ways-to-poop
18:30 < kanzure> we're not talking about pooping -_-
18:30 < kanzure> we're talking about master roshi http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/roshi.jpg
18:30 < nmz787> slide 6 there is pretty interesting, but I don't think there were many facts to back it up
18:30 < jmil> nmz787: ur nathan?
18:31 < nmz787> yeah
18:31 < jmil> cool nice to meet u
18:31 < jmil> i've seen ur posts on diybio
18:31 < jmil> i'm jordan miller
18:31 < kanzure> aren't you both on diybio
18:31 < nmz787> cool
18:31 < kanzure> right.. there we go
18:31 < jmil> lol
18:32 < jmil> kanzure: is master roshi the future of hplus?
18:32 < jmil> maybe with more hair on top
18:32 < nmz787> kanzue: roshi.jpg still poops (unless cartoons are exempt)... he'd better be squatting over the bowl, or he's likely to tear his colon
18:32 < Stee|> It's actually easy to pitch transhumanism to weightlifters, I've found
18:32 < jmil> lol
18:32 < nmz787> they seem like they're already into tracking themselves, so it makes sense
18:33 < Stee|> we really are :P
18:33 < Stee|> I've filled up multiple books with stats
18:34 < nmz787> jmil: do you think in china old rich men hook themselves up to children's blood systems, ala that mouse paper?
18:34 < kanzure> Stee|: sure.. i've also found that karate, kung fu and other martial artists are susceptible to transhumanist goals
18:34 < jmil> omg. they probably haven't seen the paper yet
18:35 < jmil> thankfully
18:35 < yashgaroth> eh they probably have
18:36 < Stee|> kanzure: I'm thinking of trying out jeet kun do or BJJ
18:36 < kanzure> "the way of the intercepting fist"
18:37 < kanzure> oh, that's jeet kun do
18:37 < kanzure> well ok.
18:37 < Stee|> Bruce Lee would be a transhuman today :P
18:37 < Stee|> *ist
18:37 < delinquentme> Stee|, he was better than human THEN
18:39 < Stee|> I love his book
18:42 < kanzure> Stee|: what's that brazilian style
18:42 < kanzure> bukaido?
18:46 < Stee|> capoeira
18:46 < Stee|> I've done it
18:48 < kanzure> no.. no.. there's one from brazil that also begins with b
18:48 < kanzure> oh well
18:51 < kanzure> wtf is capoeira.. what is this
18:51 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H0D8VaIli0&feature=related
18:51 < yashgaroth> they're breakdance fighting!
18:52 < kanzure> breakdance fighting would be much more interesting with weapons
18:58 < Stee|> escrima
19:22 < Stee|> any hplusroadmappers in dc that you know of kanz?
19:23 < kanzure> jigsaw
19:23 -!- nmz787 [43f2b117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.242.177.23] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
19:23 < kanzure> diybio-washington
19:23 < kanzure> yashgaroth: don't you have a list for that area?
19:24 < kanzure> it might be more recent than mine
19:28 < yashgaroth> seattle, washington
19:28 < yashgaroth> they're defunct anyway
19:29 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@x-134-84-100-61.reshalls.umn.edu] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [SeaMonkey 2.6.1/20111221001913]]
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19:37 < kanzure> oh right, seattle
19:37 < kanzure> nevermind
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19:44 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-153-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:44 < kanzure> "yes this is dog" kung fu style
19:44 < kanzure> http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/205/695/313066_234663409931866_230500817014792_667477_1471450191_n.jpg
20:13 < bkero> oh hey hplus
20:18 < kanzure> hi bkero
20:18 < bkero> What's crackin'?
20:20 < kanzure> pokemoning
20:22 < bkero> definitely crack
20:22 < bkero> I'm at dorkbotpdx 0x08 meeting, talking about using a bus pirate to hax i2c
20:27  * Mokbortolan_ uses exogenous anandamide! It's super effective!
20:27 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i'm still working on the disassembly
20:28 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-72-179-60-35.austin.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:28 < Mokbortolan_> you taking apart pokemon?
20:29 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: https://bitbucket.org/kanzure/pokered/raw/571429e704dc/main.asm
20:29 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/
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20:31 < gene_hacker> kanzure didn't you have a page on make transistors at one point?
20:32 < kanzure> yes.. uh let me find it
20:32 < kanzure> gene_hacker: http://heybryan.org/alternate_transistors.html
20:32 < gene_hacker> trying to find a way to make transistors for a self-replicating lunar factory
20:33 < gene_hacker> that nanocrystal method sounded nice, but it requires liquid...
20:36 < gene_hacker> kanzure got any methods to make transistors easily in UHV?
20:38 < Mokbortolan_> electrodeposition!
20:39 < Mokbortolan_> you could probably condense a gas onto a substrate
20:39 < gene_hacker> can't do electrodeposition
20:40 < gene_hacker> I'm on the moon and water is expensive
20:40 < Mokbortolan_> you couldn't make an ion gun out of something?
20:40 < Mokbortolan_> well, it's expensive but not impossible
20:40 < gene_hacker> that's what I'm thinking
20:40 < Mokbortolan_> there's water in regolith anyway
20:40 < gene_hacker> not that much
20:41 < kanzure> maybe an ion beam method
20:41 < kanzure> fib?
20:41 < Mokbortolan_> I like one possible source for that water
20:41 < gene_hacker> the problem I'm having is making the silicon in general
20:41 < gene_hacker> apparently you need graphite crucibles for the CZ process
20:41 < kanzure> didn't freitas come up with a method
20:41 < Mokbortolan_> hydrogen ions slamming into the oxygen-rich regolith
20:41 < kanzure> cz pulling can be difficult, i've heard
20:41 < gene_hacker> FIB might work
20:41 < gene_hacker> yeah
20:41 < Mokbortolan_> yeah
20:42 < Mokbortolan_> you can just say you did it
20:42 < Mokbortolan_> but not really
20:42 < gene_hacker> well CZ process would be pretty handy
20:43 < gene_hacker> especially if you could carry out the CZ process on illmenite
20:43 < gene_hacker> a common lunar mineral which is a semiconductor
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22:04 < kanzure> i don't get it
22:04 < kanzure> https://github.com/twitter/time_constants/blob/master/lib/time_constants.rb
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22:38 < kanzure> shit
22:38 < kanzure> http://www.ti.com/ww/en/analog/mems/dlplightcommander/index.shtml?DCMP=DLP_Light_Commander&HQS=Other+OT+dlplightcommander
22:38 < kanzure> i want one
22:38 < kanzure> nmz787 says it's only $3000-$4000 for the dev kit
22:39 < kanzure> UV version http://www.ti.com/tool/dlpd4x00kit
22:41 < kanzure> http://www.dlinnovations.com/index.php?page=purchasing
22:41 < kanzure> pico projector is ~$200
22:42 < kanzure> http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/texas-instruments-pico/688
22:42 < Stee|> I've been thinking of building a sixthsense
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23:26 < kanzure> http://www.ti.com/analog/docs/memsmidlevel.tsp?sectionId=622&tabId=2447
23:26 < kanzure> ^product comparison
23:27 < Stee|> what are you trying to make?
23:27 < kanzure> $8000 for the UV version? ehh
23:28 < kanzure> Stee|: photolithography for DNA synthesis
23:28 < Stee|> ah
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 31 00:00:40 2012