--- Log opened Mon Mar 12 00:00:48 2012
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04:20 < Vicarious> 'morning
04:27 < kanzure> hi
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06:18 < kanzure> http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/03/gene-therapists-ask-to-be-released.html
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06:18 < kanzure> "The main U.S. professional society representing gene therapists argued this week that clinical trials in their maturing field should no longer be required to undergo review by a special federal advisory committee. Although others disagree, many say it's time to take a fresh look at the role of the venerable Recombinant DNA Advisory Committee (RAC)."
06:18 < kanzure> "RAC was created in 1974 to oversee all gene splicing experiments, then later shifted its focus mainly to human gene therapy. In the mid-1990s, then-National Institutes of Health (NIH) Director Harold Varmus questioned whether RAC was needed, and its mission was changed from approving protocols to offering advice. But any NIH-funded researcher who proposes a gene therapy trial is still required to send a thick application to the RAC's 21 researcher
06:19 < kanzure> "overregulated to the point where it's crippling progress," says Xandra Breakefield of Massachusetts General Hospital in Charlestown, president-elect of the American Society of Gene and Cell Therapy (ASGCT)"
06:19 < kanzure> asgct? almost would've worked
06:19 < kanzure> "Amy Patterson, NIH associate director for science policy, said that NIH has no plans to do away with the RAC: "We still believe it's important to have that transparent forum." But she says NIH is "happy to think about ways to streamline the RAC process," and is likely to host a broader discussion."
06:20 < kanzure> isn't amy the one from that diybio/synthetic biology hearing for pbsci or psbci or whatever?
06:23 < kanzure> saurik: have you considered trying to compute/predict app store rankings from your data sets? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3693151
06:33 < kanzure> gah what a limited page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_biotechnology
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06:42 < kanzure> http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/evolution-science-open-publishing-video
06:57 < delinquentme> http://www.reddit.com/r/robotics/comments/qnsp9/robotic_arms_that_can_be_controlled_with/
06:57 < delinquentme> surely theres some tech I can throw back at this guy and tell him to stop giving his opinion
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09:05 < delinquentme> I LIKE ThE PART WHERE THE MODULATED BASS IS EFFING TIGHT
09:06 < JayDugger> I think I'll check back after SXSW ends.
09:06 < delinquentme> JayDugger, lolol
09:06 < delinquentme> im in pittsburgh :D
09:07 < JayDugger> I hear that noise is contagious.
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09:29 < delinquentme> HOWDY ThomasEgi
09:42 < ThomasEgi> hiho
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11:21 < kanzure> Request for Information (RFI): DARPA-SN-12-28 Novel Materials for Reliable Neural-Recording Interfaces (Due Date April 2nd)
11:21 < kanzure> "The goal of the Reliable Neural-Interface Technology (RE-NET) program is to develop the technology and systems needed to reliably extract information from the nervous system at the scale and rate necessary to control state-of-the-art high-performance prosthetic limbs."
11:21 < kanzure> "In support of the RE-NET program, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Microsystems Technology Office (MTO) is seeking ideas on innovative concepts and technologies regarding materials that could be integrated into reliable next-generation neural-electronic interfaces that are designed to mitigate or eliminate tissue reactivity and any associated degradation in chronic recording ability."
11:21 < kanzure> "DARPA is interested in responses for neural-recording interfaces to the central nervous system, peripheral nervous system, or for non-penetrating electrodes."
11:21 < kanzure> "Responders should describe the known properties of the material (including at least some of the following: chemical, mechanical, electrical, thermal, biological, optical, magnetic), the manufacturing processes used to produce the material in the form intended for neural interfaces, the extent of testing (materials characterization, biocompatibility, etc.) performed to date, sterilization procedures for the material (if known), and their willingnes
11:21 < kanzure> https://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/DARPA/CMO/DARPA-SN-12-28/listing.html
11:22 < kanzure> Kip Ludwig - Program Director, Neural Engineering; National Institutes of Health, NINDS; tel: (301) 496-1447
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11:35 < saurik> kanzure: no, as I find rankings uninteresting, and happen to know that it is based strongly on data that I don't have (involving "time", either of usage/interaction or of "how long did it last on the user's device, before being uninstalled")
11:36 < saurik> kanzure: (it should then be noted that the article you are linking to is actually just figuring out the order of search results, which is actually a quite simplistic algorithm, and requires no real complexity to approximate)
11:37 < kanzure> hmm okay.
11:37 < kanzure> yes i see
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12:00 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, why are they looking for that stuff , it already exists ?
12:03 < ybit> kanzure: you wouldn't happen to know of another group similar to spi besides the sfc
12:03 < kanzure> ybit: jrayhawk might have some ideas
12:04 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ping
12:04 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: in some cases.. but no. neural interfacing is really primitive right now.
12:06 < ThomasEgi> but they are looking for the "if you lost your arm anywa, let's wire up all the neural connections" right?
12:07 < kanzure> yeah sure
12:07 < kanzure> i mean, we traditionally have had trouble getting just three or four bits of bandwidth out of the human brain
12:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/
12:08 < ThomasEgi> so what's the problem then, dont they have the money to negotiate with a chip manufactory?. all they need is a piece of silicon packed with ADC and a connector grid on the bottom side.
12:08 < ThomasEgi> texas instruments already sells chips that can handle 8 channels just like that.
12:08 < ThomasEgi> free samples available.
12:08 < kanzure> first, the amount of information that has been demonstrated to be relayed is really pathetic
12:09 < kanzure> bits per minute... whereas we need kilobytes/second
12:09 < kanzure> second issue is biocompatibility and figuring out how exactly to do the interfacing for chronic implantation
12:09 < ThomasEgi> kilobytes per second is totaly unrealistic.
12:09 < kanzure> i am getting much more than kilobytes through my eyes
12:10 < ThomasEgi> your eyes consist of millions of neurons
12:10 < kanzure> and i type 15 characters per second, so that's output...
12:10 < kanzure> yes, our brains are even larger :)
12:10 < ThomasEgi> you dont type 15 chars per second
12:10 < ThomasEgi> even if you type really fast. you wont get over 10 or 11
12:10 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
12:10 < kanzure> assume avg word size is 5 chars
12:11 < ThomasEgi> assuming..
12:11 < ThomasEgi> but that assumption is definetly wrong if you get 15 chars per second
12:11 < kanzure> in the land of typing when you estimate these things you usually estimate 5 characters per word *shrug*
12:11 < ThomasEgi> assuming sux when doing statistics.
12:11 < ThomasEgi> messure it.
12:11 < ThomasEgi> best typer i know get up to 650.
12:11 < kanzure> it's a rough approximation for now :P
12:11 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: well i've been measured to type 196 wpm
12:12 < ThomasEgi> and they do nothing but speed-testing as they are developing keyboard layouts
12:12 < kanzure> 196*5 = 980 cpm
12:12 < ThomasEgi> as i said. words per minute are not a way to messure
12:12 < kanzure> yes, so i've written software to measure the delay between keypresses
12:12 < kanzure> in some cases i have stupid low delays (like 20ms) but most of the time it's closer to 80ms
12:13 < kanzure> between key strokes
12:13 < ThomasEgi> as i said. fastest people can type without autocompletion is roughly over 600.
12:13 < kanzure> dunno what to tell you man
12:13 < ThomasEgi> i would concider everything about 500 quite speedy
12:13 < kanzure> look at the link
12:13 < ThomasEgi> i've seen the link
12:14 < kanzure> my point is that there's no brain-computer interface (other than fingers) that does nearly this much throughput from brain -> computer :(
12:14 < kanzure> i guess fmri does pretty good but nobody has done typing-from-fmri
12:14 < ThomasEgi> the point is. even 100 bit/second would be a LOT for a brain-computer interface
12:14 < kanzure> based on what we currently have, yes
12:15 < kanzure> what we currently have absolutely sucks.
12:15 < ThomasEgi> if you get more than 100bit/second. you would have something more powerfull than a keyboard with an exceptionally fast writer behind.
12:15 < ThomasEgi> i would say that's pretty close to pretty darn awesome.
12:16 < kanzure> 100 bits/sec would be 10ish characters?
12:16 < kanzure> 10ish 8-bit characters
12:16 < kanzure> 12.. whatever
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12:17 < ThomasEgi> and 12 would sum up to 720 chars per minute
12:17 < ThomasEgi> that would instantly kick you in the top 5 of every typing-speed test out there
12:17 < ThomasEgi> personally, i only write about 480 to 500 cpm.
12:17 < ThomasEgi> i am totaly fine with that.
12:18 < kanzure> yes typing any faster is pretty useless in the scheme of things
12:18 < kanzure> i mean, it's nice to code quickly or chat quickly, but i haven't calculated the net gain
12:19 < ThomasEgi> even if you type only 200 cpm. it already allows you to communicate quite well.
12:19 < ThomasEgi> the only thing where you might need more, is for motion controll. where your brain has to keep up a feedback loop.
12:19 < ThomasEgi> but that goes with a lot less willpower
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12:28 < delinquentme> anyone know if complete genomics actually *sells* machines?
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12:38 < kanzure> delinquentme: who?
12:38 < delinquentme> "complete genomics"
12:48 < delinquentme> they've got proprietary chip based from what it sounds like
12:48 < delinquentme> but they're not resellers
12:50 < jrayhawk> ybit: The SFC and the SPI don't really have much in common.
12:50 < jrayhawk> The Apache Foundation is pretty similar to SPI
12:51 < kanzure> apache foundation seems more incubatory
12:51 < kanzure> more hands on, even
12:51 < kanzure> i think apache has people they throw at projects?
12:51 < jrayhawk> Yeah, it's much less distinct than the Debian/SPI division.
12:52 < kanzure> i've been casually observing the phonegap->cardova migration to apache
12:52 < kanzure> so these apache guys started contributing code, patches and infrastructure and 'apache policy' support
12:52 < kanzure> cordova, not cardova. whatever it is.
12:53 < jrayhawk> But it still exists *as a foundation* to manage donations, assume legal risk for, and manage branding for Apache, just as SPI exists *as a foundation* to manage donations, assume legal risk for, and manage branding of Debian.
12:53 < kanzure> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/callback.html
12:53 < jrayhawk> Whereas the SFC exists to fuck up copyright real bad.
12:53 < kanzure> oh i guess i mean http://incubator.apache.org/callback/
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12:56 < jrayhawk> The SFC manages to make me feel sorry for Bruce Perens, who is not typically a sympathetic figure.
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12:58 < jrayhawk> There's also a FreeBSD Foundation, apparently.
12:59 < jrayhawk> I suspect most large projects have a corporate or foundation overlord.
13:00 < jrayhawk> for the purposes of allocating legal risk, conference money, and brand control
13:02 < jrayhawk> Also the Xorg foundation
13:02 < kanzure> i like how you forgot that one
13:02 < kanzure> or strategically saved it for last
13:02 < kanzure> considering how many of their servers you touch
13:03 < kanzure> fbi email
13:03 < kanzure> he wants to meet.
13:04 < jrayhawk> Actually I don't touch; at best I complain at Bart when fd.o services go down and he makes a fuss about how loosely watched they are and tells me he's going to get me on the sysadmin team and then nothing happens.
13:05 < jrayhawk> You should bring flowers.
13:06 < kanzure> i figure it's an excuse to round up the austin biohackers
13:06 < kanzure> *it's an ok excuse
13:07 < jrayhawk> Bioluminescent flowers.
13:07 < kanzure> maybe it should be a pot of dirt
13:07 < kanzure> and i can just say it's bioluminescent flowers
13:08 < jrayhawk> "they're transparent flowers with the same refraction index as air"
13:08 < jrayhawk> the emperor has no flowers
13:09 < kanzure> "also they only bloom if you have no evil in your heart"
13:10 < jrayhawk> spliced in some unicorn DNA
13:10 < kanzure> or what i suspect would be unicorn DNA
13:11 < kanzure> it is probably more accurately described as a rhinostallion
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13:15 < jrayhawk> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Elasmotherium_model.jpg holy moses
13:19 < ybit> 13:00 < jrayhawk> for the purposes of allocating legal risk, conference money,  and brand control
13:19 < ybit> i'm using that
13:25 < kanzure> free software foundation
13:25 < jrayhawk> They're kinda screwy in that they claim copyright, too
13:26 < jrayhawk> so they look a lot more like, say, MySQL than like SPI.
13:26 < kanzure> isn't that what apache does?
13:29 < jrayhawk> Apache wants an irrevocable license; FSF wants assignment.
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14:00 < HEx1> re. brain I/O bandwidth, I'm pretty sure that it takes well over 100 bits/sec for proficiency with the *other* type of keyboard (the musical instrument one)
14:06 < kanzure> hi HEx1
14:06 < kanzure> clearly the only sane thing to do would be a brain-to-MIDI interface
14:07 < HEx1> I would pay good money for one of those :)
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14:08 < kanzure> HEx1: do you know any fancypants short oligo ligation protocols
14:08 < kanzure> like a 5 or 6mer library thing
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14:11 < HEx1> no. but I'm nonetheless curious as to what you had in mind
14:13 < kanzure> HEx1: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/Gene%20synthesis%20by%20assembly%20of%20short%20oligonucleotides%20-%20Horspool%20thesis%20-%202009.pdf
14:13 < kanzure> something like that
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14:13 < kanzure> hi zacharycohn
14:13 < zacharycohn> hey kanzure
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14:17  * HEx1 reads
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14:52 < zacharycohn> kanzure: what's up?
14:57 < kanzure> zacharycohn: sleepless coding
14:58 < zacharycohn> kanzure: sounds good! I'm in the Austin airport
14:58 < zacharycohn> just got a Stetson.
14:58 < kanzure> you need a lift somewhere?
14:59 < zacharycohn> nope
14:59 < zacharycohn> well
14:59 < zacharycohn> technically
14:59 < zacharycohn> yes
14:59 < zacharycohn> i need lift to go to Seattle
14:59 < kanzure> kinda outta my way
14:59 < kanzure> i was thikning more.. local
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15:01 < zacharycohn_> :p
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15:07 < kanzure> http://sendthemyourmoney.com/ "A campaign to send billions to the RIAA & MPAA"
15:07 < kanzure> "Let's just pay them the money! They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies of physical property to be just as valuable as the original. That makes it a lot easier to pay them back in two ways: a. We can send them scanned images of dollar bills instead of bulky paper and b. We don't have to worry about the hassle of shipping huge quantities of cash."
15:08 < kanzure> death by mass irony
15:09 < jrayhawk> "All negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices, and any other thing used in the making of the illustration that contain an image of the illustration or any part thereof shall be destroyed and/or deleted or erased after their final use"
15:10 < jrayhawk> send riaa digitized currency faster than they can delete it, then call the secret service
15:16 < kanzure> maybe it would be more practical to generate images of dollar bills
15:16 < kanzure> or is that digital money laundering?
15:19  * superkuh has sent a large macro image of a $5 bill to contact@mpaa.org
15:21 < superkuh> Ah. They have my mailserver blacklisted.
15:31 < ThomasEgi> m(
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15:49 < ParahSailin> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com/
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15:51 < kanzure> ParahSailin: kevin carson writes some ok things, yes
15:51 < kanzure> ParahSailin: he posts sometimes to http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing (moderated by yours truly)
15:51 < kanzure> index of particularly interesting threads: http://heybryan.org/om.html
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15:52 < ParahSailin> im decidering whether i can afford to order bsrgi
15:53 < kanzure> bsrgi?
15:53 < ParahSailin> need it for the elp plasmid -- restriction enzyme
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16:12 < kanzure> why isn't copyright taxed?
16:12 < kanzure> or patents. haven't we been over this before.. hrm
16:12 < jrayhawk> Patents are fairly costly, at least.
16:12 < kanzure> if your "intellectual property" is worth $5M/year in licensing deals i guess that's counted in the taxes.. somewhere..
16:13 < ParahSailin> regular income
16:13 < kanzure> that's it?
16:16 < kanzure> huh interesting
16:16 < kanzure> you can "donate" intellectual property and then write it off on your taxes
16:16 < kanzure> based on the "fair market value" of the "intellectual property"
16:17 < jrayhawk> wow, i wonder why i haven't seen the FSF or the OSF call for code donations
16:17 < kanzure> "To encourage charitable giving of intellectual property, Congress deemed it appropriate to grant donors of intellectual property future charitable deductions based on the income received by the donee charity."
16:17 < kanzure> "Specifically, the donor can take a deduction for up to 10 years for gifts of royalty-producing intellectual property to public charities, but the amount of the charitable deduction declines over time."
16:18 < kanzure> aww, based on income received by the donee charity
16:18 < kanzure> god this system is fucked up
16:18 < kanzure> charities are incentivized to lock up IP
16:18 < jrayhawk> I guess that would do it
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16:20 < jrayhawk> Ah, that's an "additional deduction"
16:21 < jrayhawk> You can still claim the "basis of the property or the fair value of the property, whichever is less"
16:21 < kanzure> fair value is, at minimum, your hourly rate * hours spent writing the software?
16:22 < jrayhawk> I think that's basis?
16:22 < kanzure> will you do my taxes
16:22 < jrayhawk> Fair market value is what you could get for it on the market.
16:23 < kanzure> yeah - my time
16:23 < kanzure> i guess it's not my time that we're talking about, but what i built with my time
16:23 < jrayhawk> Though you could also donate your time!
16:25 < ParahSailin> by write it off, does that mean whatever numbers you claim count as taxes paid?
16:26 < kanzure> write offs are deductions you make against the total you would otherwise pay
16:27 < ParahSailin> so i claim fair market value of $100, and i pay $100 less taxes?
16:27 < kanzure> i bet both entities (incl. the receiving charity) needs to report it
16:28 < kanzure> and i bet they were thinking about multi-million dollar value "IP"
16:30 < delinquentme> hey do you guys know who certifies doctors?
16:30 < delinquentme> is it the american medical board?
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16:32 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Medicine#United_States_and_Canada
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17:18 < kanzure> https://www.eff.org/opportunities/jobs/web-developer
17:18 < kanzure> PHP preferred? bleh
17:18 < kanzure> drupal! gah
17:19 < kanzure> "This is a full-time position based in EFF's office in San Francisco, CA. Salary is mid- to upper-50s with benefits."
17:19 < kanzure> well, the salary sounds ok for php work
17:19 < kanzure> but about 40% of what it should be for the location
17:19 < joshcryer> Slave labor.
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17:42 < delinquentme> 50 g for php work??
17:42 < delinquentme> a year?
17:44 < kanzure> i think facebook is paying 2x that
17:44 < kanzure> at least.
17:44 < delinquentme> yeah
17:44 < delinquentme> totes
17:45 < kanzure> but, php people tend to underprice themselves, and nobody with money wants them
17:45 < delinquentme> eff .. do they have revenue streams?
17:45 < delinquentme> OHH i didnt tell you
17:46 < delinquentme> PITT
17:46 < delinquentme> right mother effing PITT bioinformatics
17:46 < delinquentme> php
17:46  * delinquentme lulz
17:46 < delinquentme> they interviewed me and were like " soo tell me about your php experience "
17:46 < delinquentme> me: Oh this is predominantly PHP
17:46 < kanzure> "php was a dark period of my life"
17:46 < delinquentme> LULZ. well I dont think im the guy you're after
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19:06 < Mariu> see you soon
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19:16 < delinquentme> kanzure, do you know of any bio fluids which are magnetized?
19:16 < delinquentme> by " bio fluids " i mean fluids or reagents which are used in the research
19:25 < fenn> legitimate research use for spidering scientific journals http://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2011/11/25/the-scandal-of-publisher-forbidden-textmining-the-vision-denied/
19:25 < fenn> also, version control for scientists, because they are too stupid to use github http://www.scigit.com/
19:26 < fenn> i still hope scigit takes off. also he seems to be an interested person https://twitter.com/#!/scigit
19:34 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, i agree, only more, because if i am not at a college, i cannot read published works, forget about mining them
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19:38 < fenn> well of course, we're all in that boat
19:39  * katsmeow-afk nods
19:44 < Steel2> wonder what journal access new job gives
19:48 < fenn> high speed micro scale photolithography (video) http://www.tuwien.ac.at/en/news/news_detail/article/7444/
19:49 < fenn> i wonder if there is more technical detail available about the chemistry
19:50 < fenn> maybe in "Functional polymers by two-photon 3D lithography";
19:50 < fenn> Applied Surface Science, 254 (2007), 4; S. 836 - 840.
19:53 < fenn> ah here we go http://fennetic.net/irc/two_photon_polymerization.pdf
19:57 < fenn> same system could be used for rapidly making custom silicon etch masks in one step
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20:26 < roksprok> fenn: could two-photon 3d lithography be used to 'print' 3 dimensional MEMS? ie could one use the system to deposit alternating conductive and non-conductive layers?
20:28 < ParahSailin> i dont think it would be trivial
20:28 < delinquentme> fenn, is it based on git ??
20:28 < delinquentme> that could be awesome!
20:28 < ParahSailin> we can do multiple layers
20:31 < Steel2> roksprok: No.
20:31 < Steel2> well, it's unlikely
20:32 < Steel2> the problem is that most of what you print with 2p3l is nonconductive stuff
20:32 < Steel2> also it's not a deposition method
20:32 < roksprok> lol i fail twice
20:32 < roksprok> thanks
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20:33 < Steel2> I mean, I'm not a material scientist
20:33 < Steel2> so it's possible there's a conducting photopolymer
20:39 < ParahSailin> afaik not yet
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22:11 < delinquentme> whats the name of the earth bound rifle which shoots payloads of fuel into space?
22:11 < katsmeow-afk> only fuel? i dunno
22:12 < katsmeow-afk> lots of space guns at http://duckduckgo.com/?q=gun+orbit+payload  , but not restricted to fuel payloads
22:14 < delinquentme> http://quicklaunchinc.com/media/space-cannon-low-earth-orbit/
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22:17 < katsmeow-afk> what happened after Jan 2010 ?
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22:23 < katsmeow-afk> the usa mil developed a gun that filled the barrel with fuel and oxidiser, then shoved a specially shaped shell into it's out port, rammed it down like a piston in a diesel engine while keeping the barrel above it still flooded with fuel and oxidiser
22:24 < katsmeow-afk> near the bottom the compressed fuel charge ignited, and the barrel-piston acted like a scramjet to expel the "bullet" hypersonically
22:24 < katsmeow-afk> i dunno what was ever done with it
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22:28 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, so it was a shelved project?
22:28 < katsmeow-afk> i believe it was shelved as a deployable tank cannon due to the hazard of loading the cannon from the far business end instead of from inside the comforts of the tank, as is done now
22:29 < katsmeow-afk> as a high speed projectile delivery system where the unorthodox loading can be done, it may find uses
22:30 < katsmeow-afk> for instance, it could be done in that ocean floaty gun system, instead of the preheating of gobs of hydrogen 1600ft below sea level
22:31 < katsmeow-afk> iirc, accelleration of the projectile was linear after the initial detonation at the bottom
22:32 < katsmeow-afk> the projectile could be smart or totally dumb
22:33 < katsmeow-afk> fuels were common, it could possibly use diesel or natural gas or etc,, and they'd be easy to flood the cylinder in proper doses
22:33 < katsmeow-afk> in initial pusher to the bottom in a larger system was a small rocket, like a RATO/JATO bottle
22:36 < katsmeow-afk> it was useless as a feld artillery tho, because loading it meant standing around at the wrong end of the tank barrel, altho they may have found new ways to deal with that
22:36 < katsmeow-afk> found data : http://duckduckgo.com/?q=tank+cannon+diesel+projectile+scramjet
22:38 < katsmeow-afk> In Operation Desert Storm, one such penetrator reportedly pierced two Iraqi T-72 tanks parked side-by-side. Despite their acknowledged effectiveness, kinetic-energy rounds lose about 100 miles-per-second velocity over 2 kilometers, due to drag.
22:38 < katsmeow-afk> that was firing a scramjet carrying fuel which it burned to maintain speed
22:40 < katsmeow-afk> the initial design earlier was to fire explosives or solid depleted uranium, and to see if the explosives normally used in tank cannons could be replaced by diesel fuel etc
22:41 < katsmeow-afk> Four test firings from a 101 mm light gas gun in July 2001 proved a scramjet engine could sustain Mach 7 in thin air at a simulated 100,000-foot altitude.
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22:43 < katsmeow-afk> so just a dumb rifle is not necessarily a good choice for launcing to LEO
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22:48 < katsmeow-afk> Hertzberg had portrayed his concept as a ramjet engine in a tube, with the tube serving as the engine's cowling, and the projectile as the diffuser.
22:48 < katsmeow-afk> As the projectile hurtled down the length of the accelerator tube, the tube's gaseous mix, forced through the ring-shaped gap between the projectile and the tube's inner wall, would get compressed. Emerging from the gap, the gases would be ignited by the continuing combustion taking place behind the projectile's tail.
22:48 < katsmeow-afk> The projectile would therefore surf through the tube on a wave of combustion pressure, enjoying nonstop acceleration the whole way.
22:49 < katsmeow-afk> By 1986 they had a working 16-foot, inch-and-a-half-diameter ram accelerator and a small network of interested sponsors--the Air Force, NASA, and one aerospace corporation.
22:49 < katsmeow-afk> http://discovermagazine.com/1994/mar/rammingspeed349
22:49 < superkuh> Neat. Thanks for the links.
22:49 < katsmeow-afk> Bruckner learned he'd underestimated the ram accelerator's ultimate speed limit.
22:50 < katsmeow-afk> In this mode the Washington ram accelerator has reached speeds over 5,200 miles per hour, much faster than the mixture's average detonation speed of about 3,800 mph. Bruckner says the theoretical ceiling may loom higher than 18,000 mph.
22:51 < katsmeow-afk> The AHAF accelerator was to be a giant tube about 2 feet wide and 1,000 feet long, designed to hurl a 2- to 3-foot-long sensor-studded model aircraft at speeds up to 27,000 mph.
22:51 < katsmeow-afk> Not cheap enough, however--NASA has back- burnered the facility.
22:52 < katsmeow-afk> so in that system, i don't believe speed, fuel toxicity, or payload weight will be a problem
22:55 < katsmeow-afk> delinquentme , refined search url : http://duckduckgo.com/?q=cannon+projectile+Hertzberg
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22:56 < katsmeow-afk> "recent" is undefined here : Recent experiments achieved a launch velocity of nearly 9,500 feet per second, or Mach 8.5 in air. The researchers expect to attain velocities well above 10,000 feet per second with their experimental device. Their work has been funded by the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Army, NASA, the U.S. Department of Energy, and the Olin Aerospace Corporation.
22:56 < katsmeow-afk> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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23:00 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.active-duty.com/MW_Gerald_Bull_&_Space_Guns.htm
23:01 < katsmeow-afk> The McGill group eventually concentrated on a rocket-propelled variant of the Martlet 2, named the Martlet 2G-1, as a minimum alternative to the ambitious Martlet 4. The Martlet 2G-1 would have been able to put a two kilogram payload into LEO, making it an excellent demonstrator for a cannon-based "nanosatellite" launch system.
23:01 < katsmeow-afk> Unfortunately, funding for HARP eventually dried up and disappeared, even though the Martlet 2G-1 and various Martlet 3 rockets had been designed and were under construction.
23:03 < delinquentme> information = sexy ;D
23:04 < katsmeow-afk> "Mass drivers" based on coilguns were considered for launching payloads from the Moon at least as far back as the 1960s, and small-scale models have been built for decades.
23:04 < katsmeow-afk> NASA has designed a coilgun that can accelerate 10 kilograms to 39,600 KPH; an enhanced version of this device has been proposed to boost a 300 kilogram rocket to 36,000 KPH, allowing it to put a 150 kilogram payload into LEO.
23:04 < superkuh> I can't imagine a coilgun as a serious engineering solution for accelerating things to orbit.
23:05 < katsmeow-afk> me either, but i figured i was doing it wrong
23:05 < katsmeow-afk> Calculations show that launch energy requirements are cut by almost a third if the cannon's muzzle is placed on a mountaintop at an altitude of 4.6 kilometers (15,000 feet).
23:06 < Juul> i wonder if it's possible to generate a tunnel of very temporary localized extreme low pressure up through the atmosphere
23:06 < Juul> and then shoot something through that
23:06 < katsmeow-afk> like a "pipe" ?
23:06 < Juul> well, we don't have the material to build an actual pipe, and if we did we could just build a space elevator
23:06 < katsmeow-afk> i suspect all the air n the "pipe" will be compressed to something extreme by the time the projectile left it
23:07 < Juul> i don't have any real ideas, but i was thinking more like lasers heating the air
23:07 < superkuh> Although I am not sure about their magnetohydrodynamic rocket's thrust/weight ratio (in terms of carrying solar panels or other electrical energy sources), I like the idea of getting up to orbital velocity very slowly with large stratospheric balloons.
23:08 < superkuh> JP Aerospace has been working towards that for many years.
23:08 < Juul> superkuh, really? but balloons only take you a small portion of the altitude?
23:08 < katsmeow-afk> actual missiles have been fired from baloon lofts
23:08 < superkuh> Juul, their idea is to get up to 40km then accelerated tangential to the Earth for days or a week.
23:08 < superkuh> http://jpaerospace.com/
23:09 < katsmeow-afk> 90,000ft isn't "small portion", it's most of the atmosphere
23:09 < Juul> superkuh, nice! i didn't know anyone was working on that!
23:09 < superkuh> Balloons have been used supersonic in that atmospheric pressure before in ICBM missle decoys.
23:09 < superkuh> katsmeow-afk, it's still a lot of drag with a 5km balloon.
23:10 < katsmeow-afk> i was talking about lofting the missle, then dropping and igniting it
23:10 < superkuh> Rockoons, right.
23:11 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
23:11 < superkuh> I recall Romania was working on a rockoon program recently.
23:11 < superkuh> Haven't heard much though.
23:11 < Juul> superkuh, thanks for that link. just ordered their book :)
23:11 < superkuh> Juul, I can find a few podcast interviews with the founder if you want.
23:11 < Juul> superkuh, that'd be nice
23:11 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.stormingmedia.us/58/5812/A581202.html
23:12 < superkuh> http://www.thespaceshow.com/guest.asp?q=161
23:12 < Juul> oh and they're located near sacramento
23:13 < superkuh> katsmeow-afk, http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA202185&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf (the pdf of that patent)
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23:16 < katsmeow-afk> aahhh
23:16 < Juul> i had the beginnings of an idea at CCCamp this year, after staying awake for too long, to build a "circle" of balloons, connected by spools of wire, with solar-powered ion thrusters that would gradually spin up the whole construction and the spools would spool out more wire to increase the diameter as the acceleration increased. i realized and still realize that there are a lot of obvious problems with this, but i hadn't at the time heard anyone sugg
23:16 < Juul> est anything similar
23:17 < Juul> glad to see someone had the idea before me and is working on it
23:17 < Vicarious> hi
23:17 < Juul> hi
23:17 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.tbfg.org/papers/Ram%20Accelerator%20Technical%20Risks%20ISDC07.pdf
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> Presented at International Space Development Conference, May 25-28, 2007, Dallas TX
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> * University of Washington, Dept. of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Seattle WA, Research Scientist
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> + Ballistic Flight Group LLC, Founder, www.tbfg.org, Aerospace Engineer
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> † University of Washington, Dept. of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Seattle WA, Professor and Chairman
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> Ram Accelerator as an Impulsive Space Launcher:
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> Assessment of Technical Risks
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> C. Knowlen,* B. Joseph,+ A.P. Bruckner †
23:18 < katsmeow-afk> arrg, sorry
23:20 < katsmeow-afk> nice pics in that pdf
23:20 < superkuh> Juul, you might have more than a passing interest in the developments re: spinning electrodynamic tethers then. There's this general summary from the star-tech inc guys http://www.star-tech-inc.com/papers/iecec/iecec.pdf, and a youtube presentation on a specific implementation for LEO orbital debris removal, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwro-ijCYZc
23:21 < superkuh> Plenty of discussion of the actual mechanisms to extend tethers in space by slow spinning.
23:24 < Juul> thanks!
23:25 < katsmeow-afk> yeow at the spl of sonic boom for a gun launch system
23:25 < superkuh> A bit more on that tethers in http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Space/Spacecraft/
23:25 < superkuh> s/that/those/
23:25 < katsmeow-afk> ~130dB@10km , 110dB@40km, etc
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23:30 < Juul> superkuh, Lots to read up on thanks. I see you seem to be working on TMS. What have you done so far?
23:33 < superkuh> Nothing useful. In ~2006 or so I put together a simple pancake wound coil system that didn't work. It was disk SCR discharging a couple 100uF caps at far too low of a voltage to get the rate of change in current necessary to create a voltage gradient.
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23:34 < katsmeow-afk> bud isn't a voltage gradient across the coil the mark of a lot of inductance and slow field buildup?
23:35 < superkuh> Anyway, nowdays I have the necessary parts but not the ambition.
23:35 < Juul> superkuh, but you've done some reading on it I take it? I know very little about it, but I'm curious: Do you know if there are examples of TMS where the stimulated subject is immediately consciously aware of the stimulation, or does it mostly require external verification by e.g. making the subject do tests?
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23:36 < superkuh> They are always aware because of the noise from magnetoconstriction of the stimulation coil.
23:36 < Juul> ah
23:36 < superkuh> There is 'sham' procedures though.
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23:36 < superkuh> I don't know how close they get the clicking noise or how they do it.
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23:37 < Juul> apart from the noise then?
23:39 < superkuh> I don't know. If it's stimulating the motor cortex proprioceptive feedback would inform them.
23:39 < Juul> hm yeah
23:39 < Juul> I guess what I'm indirectly asking is whether you could build the input-side of the world's simplest telepathy system using TMS
23:40 < superkuh> Low powered ultrasound stimulation seems better, all around, for anything requiring high resolution or spatially complex patterns of activation or inhibition.
23:41 < Juul> where I define telepathy as the communication of consciously chosen information with another human being without using any of the existing input/output features of our body.
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23:42 < Juul> hm i hadn't heard of low-powered ultrasound for brain stimulation
23:42 < Juul> neuro-opto-genetics seems like the way to go, but it's not something i would do in a DIY setting :)
23:43 -!- marainein [~marainein@114-198-74-22.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
23:46 < katsmeow-afk> superkuh, do you have an /ai/ or similar?
23:46 < katsmeow-afk> or /cognition_mechanisms/
23:47 < katsmeow-afk> or such directory which i am not seeing
23:48 < superkuh> There is theory and computational simulation in /Neuroscience/ . Machine learning algorithm books in /Computing/
23:48 < katsmeow-afk> cool, thanks
23:50 < katsmeow-afk> do you have bandwidth limits? that is, can i turn wget loose on those in slowmode if i spread out over a day or so?
23:50 < superkuh> You can mirror everything as fast as you want.
23:50 < katsmeow-afk> oh! ok!
23:52 < katsmeow-afk> won't be too fast, i have other things going on too
23:53 -!- Yashgaroth [~chatzilla@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]]
23:53 < katsmeow-afk> tis almost 2am again
23:57  * katsmeow-afk waves gnites and thanks for all the url sharing :-)
--- Log closed Tue Mar 13 00:00:49 2012