--- Log opened Sat Mar 31 00:00:15 2012
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00:11 < fenn> i'm fond of the concrete machine tool concept, basically you get some linear rails and bolt/grout them to some square structural tubing filled with concrete; worked after WWII when there were iron shortages and still works good now
00:12 < fenn> you get stiffness/strength from the steel, damping from the concrete, and accuracy from the rails
00:13 < fenn> a bridge mill is the best configuration for rigidity, if you plan to do serious machining, but a gantry such as this would be fine for lighter duty work: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/epoxy_granite/127051-epoxy_concrete_cnc_mill_500_a.html
00:14 < kanzure> ParahSailin: ping
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00:18 < kanzure> well, anyway. there's your answers.
00:35 < nmz787> what about that V90
00:35 < nmz787> fireball
00:41 < kanzure> fenn: ping
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00:55 < fenn> yes i'm around
00:59 < kanzure> i'm sorta assuming nmz787's question was for you
00:59 < kanzure> i haven't used a fireball
00:59 < kanzure> looks a little fragile
01:00 < fenn> i'm not a huge fan of MDF in general
01:00 < joshcryer> fireball?
01:00 < joshcryer> damn you guys and your lingo damnit it :P
01:00 < fenn> also it's kinda small
01:00 < fenn> http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/
01:00 < joshcryer> (yeah google helped me literally after I typed 'fireball?')
01:01 < fenn> similar machine in this class is the zen mill http://www.zentoolworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=75
01:01 < fenn> i don't think these are suitable for metal cutting
01:01 < fenn> perhaps engraving
01:01 < joshcryer> ps we're all going to be tapped into the machine in a dozen years or so and it'll be almost superfluous, we'll all know what each other means
01:02 < fenn> may we all use proper URIs by then
01:02 < kanzure> action:INTENT://||ANDROID.action.intent.popup.home.widget
01:02 < joshcryer> heh
01:03 < joshcryer> I am suck at 'branding'
01:04 < fenn> brainding?
01:05 < joshcryer> fireball? how about mdf cnc? ;p or rasberry pi? how about cheap small hdpc? >:P
01:05 < kanzure> fenn: ok. so how about your take on the laser cutter scheming?
01:05 < kanzure> so far it looks like a custom one is the way to go but maybe a $16k laser + custom optics + whatever god-awful software it comes with?
01:06 < fenn> i dont think a laser cutter has enough spatial resolution
01:06 < fenn> in the movement platform
01:06 < fenn> if you wanna make tiny stuff, need to use something like a microscope stage
01:06 < kanzure> nmz787's 1/8 40 screw scheme said something like 256 steps over a 15 micron turn?
01:07 < kanzure> s/over a/within a
01:07 < fenn> something like 2.5 micron per step, but you can't really rely on microstepping
01:08 < fenn> oh wait, nm there's 200 steps per turn, divided by 256 so 0.01 micron per microstep
01:08 < fenn> 3 microns per real step
01:08 < kanzure> "real" step
01:08 < fenn> "full step" if you wanna get technical
01:08 < kanzure> ok ok
01:12 < joshcryer> how thick is the laser cut?
01:13 < kanzure> there are scenarios where cut-through is ok
01:13 < fenn> automatic hole drilling would be nice
01:14 < kanzure> channel depths of 20-30 microns would be nice
01:14 < kanzure> at most 100
01:16 < fenn> something like this looks about right http://www.bmius.com/p-8741-teradyne-xy-motorized-translation-stage-4x4-inches.aspx
01:17  * fenn shops around some more
01:17 < kanzure> oh right. stationary laser.
01:21 < nmz787> fenn: not 2.5 micron per step
01:21 < nmz787> fenn: 15 microns per rotation of the screw, generally about 180 steps per rotation of the motor
01:23 < nmz787> err
01:23 < fenn> inch * 1/40 * 25.4mm/inch = 0.635mm = 635 micron
01:23 < nmz787> 1/4 inch to microns = 6350.... (6350 / 40) / 180 = 0.881944444
01:23 < fenn> dunno where you got 15 from
01:24 < nmz787> 1/4 40 means every 1/4 inch there is 40 threads
01:24 < fenn> no
01:24 < fenn> 1/4 is the diameter of the screw
01:24 < fenn> it has 40 turns per inch (40 threads per inch)
01:25 < nmz787> oh
01:25 < nmz787> err
01:25 < nmz787> :P
01:25 < nmz787> 4am here
01:25 < nmz787> we rely on microstepping blood pumps for medical apps
01:25 < fenn> anyway it seems that typical screw threads are fine, as even 16 microsteps gets down to 1 micron resolution
01:26 < nmz787> if the controller has enough amperage and you have good motors, why can't you trust that?
01:26 < nmz787> approximating a sine wave more accurately???
01:27 < nmz787> mm
01:27 < nmz787> so where do you get the best threads?
01:27 < nmz787> or are there good gantry kits? pick n choose sites?
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01:28 < nmz787> we probably only need 8 inches per side of travel
01:28 < fenn> "best" threads are made for micrometers or positioning stage leadscrews, but i suspect a normal precision acme leadscrew would be fine
01:28 < nmz787> i had mentioned throwing in a  michelson interferometer using feedback via a photodiode
01:29 < nmz787> oh right you said as long as its repeatable
01:29 < nmz787> i guess if you always began ethching/curing in the same spot
01:29 < nmz787> the corner or center
01:29 < fenn> yeah after seeing that video interferometry looks more doable, but a single photodiode would be too noisy and unreliable, you'd have to do some kind of image processing (and don't miss anything!)
01:30 < fenn> things can move 1/4 wavelength in a very small amount of time
01:30 < fenn> embed everything in pitch to slow it down :P
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01:31 < Vicarious> 'morning
01:32 < fenn> oh yeah baby http://www.zaber.com/products/product_group.php?group=XY#tabs
01:32 < nmz787> nah
01:33 < nmz787> i think you'd just put a comparator on it
01:33 < nmz787> so you only count peaks
01:33 < fenn> i sort of just want to design and build stuff like that
01:33 < fenn> nmz787: that assumes there's no noise or speckle
01:34 < nmz787> well speckle will decrease the signal, not increase it
01:34 < nmz787> but sure
01:34 < nmz787> we'd have to see it
01:34 < nmz787> hmm those stages are $2200
01:35 < nmz787> oh, for 13mm
01:35 < nmz787> $4k is a bit much
01:35 < fenn> and up
01:35 < nmz787> (for 10cm)
01:35 < fenn> can probably find these things surplus
01:35 < nmz787> yeah
01:36 < nmz787> there's a place close to me actually
01:36 < fenn> centurion?
01:36 < fenn> http://www.centurian-surplus.com/servlet/StoreFront
01:36 < fenn> i've talked to this guy, he doesn't know or care what 90% of his stuff is
01:36 < kanzure> how does that work
01:37 < nmz787> fenn: have you heard of these guys
01:37 < nmz787> http://www.newscaletech.com/squiggle_overview.html
01:37 < nmz787> nah this place, i can pick up locally
01:37 < fenn> yeah
01:37 < nmz787> http://www.sunnking.com/
01:37 < nmz787> newscale is down the road from me
01:37 < nmz787> a little too small...
01:37 < nmz787> hmm
01:38 < nmz787> i wonder if they can do an array of them
01:38 < nmz787> that might solve valving actually
01:38 < fenn> i've had bad luck with getting stuff from ewaste centers
01:39 < nmz787> why?
01:40 < nmz787> its a pretty sweet place
01:40 < nmz787> huge!
01:40 < fenn> have you actually *gotten* anything from there?
01:40 < nmz787> yeah
01:40 < nmz787> hot air thermocycler
01:40 < nmz787> 12 motorized lens + camera assemblies for like $1 each
01:40 < nmz787> FTIR spec
01:41 < fenn> how does that work, you just grab it and run, or they sell things per pound or what?
01:41 < nmz787> ebay
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01:41 < nmz787> but its local so no shipping 4 me
01:41 < fenn> hmm. that means they have to actually know what something is first
01:41 < nmz787> or you have to know what item name to search for
01:41 < nmz787> model #
01:41 < nmz787> etc
01:42 < nmz787> they know stuff like XY stage though
01:42 < nmz787> thats generic enough
01:43 < nmz787> but you can also call them and give them a wish list
01:44 < nmz787> but i think they'd be more interested if you were spending a few hundred - thousand or two $s
01:44 < nmz787> in the wishlist deal
01:47 < fenn> ok so positioning i think i have a handle on
01:47 < fenn> what i don't really understand is how porosity affects the chemistry in tiny reaction chambers
01:48 < fenn> as the pore size approaches the size of the chamber, contamination becomes a huge problem
01:48 < fenn> but how do you actually measure porosity and is it unavoidable or are there flexible materials that are less porous?
01:49 < kanzure> fenn if you can pose a well-formed materials question i can run it by some materials people i know
01:50 < kanzure> err in particular for material searching.. materials people be crazy.
01:51 < fenn> i think the main requirement is that we can make valves, yes?
01:51 < kanzure> yep
01:51 < kanzure> "Because of the high porosity of PDMS, during the course of thermocycling significant sample evaporation can occur, thus altering reactant concentrations and subsequently reducing reaction efficiency, and in some cases completely inhibiting synthesis."
01:51 < kanzure> "It has been found that the addition of fluid reservoirs in the vicinity of reaction chambers can reduce sample evaporation (17); thus, a water jacket composed of a mesh of fluid lines 50μm wide with 300μm spacing was designed in the control layer above the four reactors. When filled with water and actuated during thermocycling, the water jacket substantially decreased reactor evaporation as observed qualitatively."
01:51 < fenn> ParahSailin: oh it looks like the link i posted earlier (cnczone) is actually a bridge mill, not a gantry
01:52 < fenn> er, can't you just submerge the whole thing in water?
01:53 < fenn> seems like a stupid problem
01:54 < kanzure> nah man what you really want to do is submerge it in syrup
01:54 < fenn> aside from the problems of manufacturing there's the design aspect; what about magnetic beads and using surface tension to move around liquid attached to the beads? has anyone done this?
01:54 < fenn> mmm syrup
01:55 < fenn> or just encase it in epoxy
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01:56 < kanzure> would epoxy effect microscope observation of it
01:56 < fenn> yes, but it could be controlled
01:57 < fenn> i guess you only need epoxy around the edges, if it's a glass-pdms-glass sandwich
01:57 < kanzure> haven't figured out glass valving
01:57 < fenn> me either
01:58 < fenn> looking at http://www.stanford.edu/group/foundry/Microfluidic%20valve%20technology.html
01:58 < kanzure> heh what about no valves, and instead you just activate perpendicular flows to block certain things
01:59 < fenn> does that work?
01:59 < kanzure> stanford's microfluidics foundry is a good option if we didn't want to do this in-house
01:59 < kanzure> pdms pressure valves are the standard/default yes
02:00 < kanzure> because pdms can expand under pressure and block the crossed channel
02:00 < fenn> yeah that's why i said talk to dylan, they've already done all the legwork with stanford (apparently they're extremely hard to access unless you are a researcher at stanford)
02:01 < fenn> okay what about vacuum sputtering a thin layer of aluminum or similar onto the pdms, to fill in the pores
02:01 < fenn> electroless/electroplating could also work
02:01 < kanzure> maybe you can run a liquid through the final chip and coat the walls
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02:02 < kanzure> hi klafka
02:02 < fenn> or even a thin coat of su-8 followed by bulk uv cure
02:02 < fenn> su-8 has to be non-porous
02:05 < fenn> i wonder if the liquid would fill in the channels
02:05 < klafka> hey kanzure
02:05 < klafka> i'm really high -_-
02:05 < fenn> hmm "40x the flexibility of silicon" doesn't sound very flexible
02:08 < fenn> question about reagents - are dna synthesis reagents strong mutagens and require crazy disposal procedures?
02:09 < kanzure> iirc waste products are dumped into a giant 'waste' bottle and disposed of like normal chemicals
02:10 < fenn> this datasheet says "level 0 health hazard" http://datasheets.scbt.com/sc-286470.pdf
02:11 < kanzure> just remember that msds sheets are just for liability purposes and shouldn't be relied upon
02:12 < fenn> yeah they're mostly useless, "consult local waste management authority for disposal regulations blah blah blah blah blaaaa
02:12 < kanzure> "Considered an unlikely route of entry in commercial/industrial environments"
02:12 < kanzure> "No human exposure data available"
02:13 < kanzure> "IF SWALLOWED: immediately give a glass of water" and a fucking beer
02:13 < fenn> and a pat on the back and a darwin award
02:14 < kanzure> "Encourage patient to blow nose"
02:15 < kanzure> "consider explosion-proof machines"
02:15 < fenn> so, i am sort of wondering why we are doing DNA synthesis again?
02:16 < fenn> the fact that something is expensive doesn't automatically mean it is easy to improve upon
02:16 < kanzure> enables el-cheapo biology projects
02:16 < kanzure> some of it does not require "improvement", like protein purification
02:17 < kanzure> directed evolution of specific proteins
02:17 < fenn> it seems like a desktop dna synthesizer is useless without a desktop dna sequencer to check its output
02:17 < kanzure> yes probably
02:17 < kanzure> but those assholes are supposed to be making us that desktop sequencer right?
02:18 < fenn> dna sequencing can be done without any valves
02:18 < fenn> (basically sanger sequencing is column chromatography with some photodiodes and dye-blocked nucleotides)
02:19 < fenn> i'm imagining a glass microscope slide with a long zigzag etched into it, with two fluid ports at either end and a photodiode somewhere near the output end
02:20 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics_Sanger_sequencer.png
02:22 < fenn> what is the pdms layer for?
02:22 < kanzure> thermal bonding?
02:22 < fenn> i mean the valves do something, but what
02:23 < kanzure> what? the valves press up against the channels to block them
02:23 < fenn> right
02:23 < fenn> but why do you need valves?
02:24 < kanzure> oh neat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfluidic_Sanger_sequencing
02:28 < fenn> oh it does thermal cycling too
02:29 < fenn> i don't think that's really necessary
02:29 < fenn> you can do your PCR in a PCR machine and pipet the result into the capillary for elecrophoresis
02:30 < fenn> well anyway it's not that hard to do PCR
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02:31 < fenn> sub-microliter volumes of reagents sounds pretty cheap
02:31 < kanzure> i think pcr on a chip is important
02:31 < kanzure> and easy who cares..
02:32 < fenn> yes
02:32 < kanzure> pcr is a welcome problem
02:32 < fenn> anyway why has nobody in diybio made microfluidic anything?
02:32 < fenn> or, where can i buy a cheap microfluidic sequencing chip?
02:32 < kanzure> hackteria did some stuff but it looks macroscopic and cheap and unrepeatable/unrepeated
02:33 < fenn> supposedly this company "microchip biotechnologies" in the bay area makes them
02:33 < kanzure> also nobody has done it because i haven't yet or something
02:33 < fenn> bah
02:33 < kanzure> haha i don't think these microfluidics companies actually do anything
02:33 < kanzure> so far i haven't seen evidence
02:33 < fenn> sequencing looks like a much easier problem to start out with than synthesis
02:33 < kanzure> pcr seems even easier
02:33 < fenn> yeah but maybe too easy
02:34 < fenn> pcr then sequencing then synthesis, OK
02:34 < fenn> then combine them all into one chip that verifies its own synthesis output
02:34 < kanzure> cell loading then pcr then sequencing then synthesis then transhumanism
02:34 < kanzure> oh wait
02:34 < kanzure> laser ccutter then cell loading then pcr then sequencing then synthesis then transhumanism
02:34 < fenn> cell loading comes after synthesis no? otherwise what do you put into the cell
02:35 < kanzure> oh, no i was just thinking of easy things to do
02:35  * fenn adds a parallel path to the gantt chart
02:35 < kanzure> i think one cell per droplet is an easy thing to do, i don't know- just storing cultures or some shit
02:35 < fenn> droplet handling is another area of research entirely
02:35 < kanzure> make sure they don't die. observe them regularly. eventually yashgaroth will complain enough to have one of us add an electroporator
02:37 < fenn> i wonder if there are monolithic "chip cameras" that have lenses suitable for microscopy
02:38 < fenn> these cameras are about 1mm cube
02:39 < fenn> i was talking with anselm about making a capillary array electrophoresis sequencer http://med.stanford.edu/sgtc/technology/cap.html
02:39 < fenn> didn't know such a thing actually existed until now
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02:42 < fenn> three copper blocks, each with 1/16" diameter holes drilled through in a standard 96-well format, in a stack such that the arrays of holes co-align. Each of the blocks is maintained at extension, annealling, or denaturing temperature, and the blocks are well insulated from each other. Each hole is threaded through with a teflon tube through which the samples will move. One end of each tube is extended above the block assembly to connect to the syringe ne
02:42 < kanzure> cut off at "connect to the syringe ne-"
02:43 < fenn> connect to the syringe needles of a Robbins Scientific Hydra-96 pipettor. The other end extends below the assembly for loading the samples from a standard 96-well plate.
02:43 < fenn> how do i configure irssi to wrap to a new message at whatever number of characters that is?
02:44 < fenn> hmm apparently i need splitlong.pl
02:45 < fenn> unfixed (and unacknowledged!) bug from 2006
02:48 < fenn> or maybe autowrap.pl
02:49 < kanzure> screw it i should just make everyone work on http://bitbucket.org/iimarckus/pokered
02:49 < kanzure> 'night
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02:50  * joshcryer shakes his head at sleeping kanzure
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02:54 < fenn> i think "microchip biotechnologies" is now known as "integen X"
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05:40 < fenn> hm, stelarc is going to be at dorkbot
05:40 < fenn> er, yesterday. d'eaux
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07:28 < kanzure> boop beep
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07:40 < kanzure> delinquentme: sup
07:42 < delinquentme> howdeh
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09:38 < kanzure> ' The "tangled spaghetti" model is good for "gray" matter, but "white" matter is different.
09:39 < kanzure> We already knew that axons in the white matter runs in bundles (like spaghetti if you
09:39 < kanzure> neglect to stir while boiling).  Van's paper is about  "white" matter.  I haven't read it
09:39 < kanzure> carefully enough to form an opinion."
09:45 < delinquentme> kanzure, american institute of physis  =>> american institute of physics
09:45 < delinquentme> in your list .. jut fyi
09:47 < kanzure> my c key is busted
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10:13 < delinquentme> cccccc
10:13 < delinquentme> c
10:13 < delinquentme> c
10:13 < delinquentme> c
10:13 < delinquentme> there now you can just copy and paste
10:13 < delinquentme> oh wait.. ctrl + c
10:13 < delinquentme> lulz!
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10:24 < kanzure> http://asymptoticdesign.wordpress.com/2012/03/10/diy-scope/
10:24 < kanzure> "My DIY fluorescence microscope probably runs around $2k is my guess -- about an order of magnitude cheaper than competing microscopes by Olympus/Nikon/etc., but still too expensive for individuals."
10:24 < kanzure> http://asymptoticdesign.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/openscope-software-v1-0/
10:26 < delinquentme> ^^ awesome
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10:28 < kanzure> MIT 6.123/20.345 (Bioinstrumentation)
10:28 < kanzure> damn. where can i get the videos to that class?
10:29 < delinquentme> lets relocate there and just open up shop at a coffee house
10:29 < delinquentme> and be like WE CLAIM DIS TABUL
10:29 < delinquentme> and the invite people to check out the coolness
10:29 < delinquentme> THERES AN IDEA
10:29 < delinquentme> at the cap of a project rent out a table @ sbux and hack there
10:30 < delinquentme> promise ot buy $30 worth of coffee and talk to people about the projects
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10:55 < thylane> http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/988/
10:56 < delinquentme> oh man.
10:57 < kanzure> personally i think everyone should adopt delinquentme's stunning good looks
10:57 < delinquentme> ive just implemented one of my very first (useful!) recursions
10:57 < kanzure> eh?
10:57 < delinquentme> yeh.
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10:58 < delinquentme> its basically sucking whatever search bandwidth I can get from google
11:02 < delinquentme> and tyvms kanzure
11:02 < kanzure> haha
11:02 < delinquentme> does that mean no softwares :D
11:03 < delinquentme> its cool bc im still refactoring
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11:06 < lichen> that article is a bit silly
11:06 < lichen> "stop being unattractive, nerds"
11:07 < kanzure> transhumanism.org is dead anyway
11:08 < kanzure> wta is using humanityplus.org instead now
11:08 < kanzure> and putting those opinion pieces on hplusmagazine.com
11:08 < delinquentme> i think
11:08 < delinquentme> he needs
11:08 < delinquentme> a website
11:09 < n_bentha> we have an online magazine?
11:11 < n_bentha> :( it keeps saying that it can't reach the remote server...i guess the site is down?
11:11 < lichen> looks like it
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11:16 < kanzure> n_bentha: they don't have any people that understand websites anymore
11:16 < kanzure> they had me working on it for a while but then they went all crazy on me
11:17 < n_bentha> o_0
11:17 < n_bentha> wth.
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11:19 < lichen> why is this community so fracturous
11:19 < n_bentha> i bet on paranoia?
11:20 < lichen> about what?
11:20 < kanzure> well, everyone wants to split the group
11:20 < kanzure> because i assume alpha male shit
11:20 < lichen> yeah
11:21 < lichen> and wanted to lead the movement
11:21 < lichen> while having nothing to contribute
11:21 < kanzure> SOCIAL!!!
11:21 < kanzure> clearly lichen you are insufficiently social, or something
11:21 < kanzure> i don't know how to troll you on this subject, sorry. jrayhawk would do better.
11:21 < lichen> :|
11:22 < kanzure> another important issue to point out
11:22 < lichen> ive noticed the h+ community has a lot of the same problems the atheist/rational movement has
11:22 < kanzure> is that the vast majority of the previous transhumanist community is completely unskilled
11:22 < lichen> dreamers and sci-fi authors
11:23 < kanzure> some of them were skilled and got together to make the nematode mind uploading research group
11:23 < kanzure> so they built a community project to slice some neural tissue and scan it in with lasers
11:23 < kanzure> but that was just one project..
11:23 < lichen> when was that?
11:23 < kanzure> late 90s?
11:23 < lichen> ah
11:24 < lichen> so a point where that kind of project wouldnt have even worked anyways
11:24 < kanzure> huh? it did work
11:24 < lichen> oh?
11:24 < kanzure> yeah it was just scanning in neural tissue and representing it in computers
11:24 < kanzure> plus i think some simulation, but w/e
11:24 < lichen> i didnt think we knew enough about neuronal function at that point to really simulate it fully
11:25 < kanzure> "fully" depends on what you are diong
11:25 < kanzure> *doing
11:25 < kanzure> and simulating a nematode is dramatically simpler than simulating the 100s of different types of neurons in the human brain
11:25 < lichen> point
11:25 < kanzure> 100 nematode neurons vs. 100 billion human neurons plus billions of other supporting cells
11:26 < lichen> nematodes only have 100?
11:26 < lichen> dang
11:26 < kanzure> bbl
11:28 < n_bentha> they're just dumb worms!
11:29 < lichen> the fuck?
11:29 < lichen> lol
11:29 < lichen> fuck im sitting too far from my monitor
11:29 < lichen> i read that as 'dumb women'
11:29 < lichen> and i was thinking 'what are you on about'
11:30 < n_bentha> press ctrl and +
11:30 < n_bentha> or shift and +
11:30 < n_bentha> it'll incease your font size
11:30 < lichen> not in kvirc
11:30 < n_bentha> oh...
11:30 < lichen> i can probably find somewhere to increase font size though
11:30 < n_bentha> my bad, i'm using opera browser
11:31 < lichen> its not as though i cant read this
11:31 < lichen> but skimming
11:47 < strangewarp> [12:22] <lichen> dreamers and sci-fi authors
11:47 < strangewarp> they see me rollin, they hatin
11:48 < strangewarp> ;)
11:50 < strangewarp> Problem is, a lot of people didn't discover transhumanism until after finishing their fine-arts / liberal-arts educations...
11:51 < strangewarp> IMO find a way to get transhumanist career-paths discussed in college job-fairs
11:52 < uniqanomaly__> we need h+ spam all over the internets
11:56 < uniqanomaly__> h+ crusaders taskforce rotfl
11:57 < thesnark> fuck pygtk
11:57 < thesnark> that is all
11:58 < strangewarp> fuck processing, chuck, pd, java, and groovy as well
11:58 < strangewarp> also fuck luaAV for not being windows-compatible
11:58 < uniqanomaly__> fuck windows
11:58 < strangewarp> yes that too x_x
12:02 < thesnark> stangewarp what are you doing with pd?
12:04 < strangewarp> thesnark: Nothing anymore.. it was kind of awful to get even simple things running in it. I have trouble thinking in the terms it requires, I suppose
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12:04 < thesnark> strangewarp yeah, setting all of that stuff up sucks
12:04 < thesnark> strangewarp I am impressed with anybody who can produce anything with those tools
12:04 < strangewarp> heh, well, thanks I suppose
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12:05 < strangewarp> I ended up coding my music-setup's brain in ChucK instead, which is sort of like trying to fry an egg on a tire instead of a rock
12:05 < strangewarp> Going to port it over to Lua once I either get a Linux computer, or LuaAV is ported to Windows..
12:06 < thesnark> a linux computer?
12:06 < thesnark> dump windows!
12:06 < thesnark> show it how you really feel
12:06 < strangewarp> I have been meaning to dump Windows, but it has to wait for several fiddly reasons
12:07 < thesnark> there will always be excuses
12:07 < thesnark> you can't afford to be in this abusive relationship anymore
12:07 < thesnark> at _least_ do a dual boot with Ubuntu
12:07 < thesnark> it's very easy
12:07 < strangewarp> I have been considering that, yes.. I will probably dualboot in a while
12:08 < thesnark> You can set up your dual boot from inside windows
12:08 < thesnark> it's so easy
12:08 < thesnark> you should do it tonight
12:08 < delinquentme> computers.
12:08 < delinquentme> they're so stupid quick
12:09 < thesnark> addendum to my previous statement regarding pygtk: long live pyqt3, pylab
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12:16 < delinquentme> http://maps.google.com/?t=8&utm_campaign=8bit&utm_source=yt google wins the april fools
12:23 < strangewarp> Oh wow. XD
12:23 < thesnark> it's 3/31
12:23 < thesnark> wtf
12:24 < delinquentme> its april first in ....
12:24 < delinquentme> taiwan? idk
12:25 < delinquentme> is it just me in thinking scraping tech is WAYY underutilized?
12:25 < thesnark> haha, not at all
12:25 < thesnark> but go on, how do you think it should be used?
12:29 < strangewarp> On the zoomed-out settings, it seems to think Denver is in the middle of the mountains, which... no. Other than that, very amusing..
12:35 < lichen> strangewarp: if i could find an h+ job id be in the field
12:35 < lichen> any jobs in the field are really hard to find
12:36 < lichen> doesnt really help that im young and unexperienced though
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12:53 < kanzure> lichen: would you be up for some programming jobs?
12:53 < kanzure> thesnark: aw man don't be using pygtk
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13:18 < strangewarp> http://copyranter.blogspot.fr/2012/03/world-map-metal-bands-per-100000-people.html - Amusing
13:23 < delinquentme> JXC
13:23 < delinquentme> computers am so fast
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13:31 < lichen> kanzure: yeah, thats my focus
13:31 < lichen> im ideally looking for something stable
13:32 < kanzure> eemail me your resume? kanzure@gmail.com
13:32 < lichen> kk
13:32 < kanzure> e-email is electronic electronic mail
13:32 < lichen> lol
13:32 < lichen> extra electronic
13:33 < lichen> for when regular electronics just arent enough
13:34 < kanzure> "The group is now investigating ways to design a “self-correcting factory” in which products are automatically tested. If the product doesn’t work, Hardt envisions the manufacturing process changing in response, adjusting settings on machines to correct the process. "
13:34 < kanzure> "For example, the team is looking for ways to evaluate how fluid flows through a manufactured chip. The point at which two fluids mix within a chip should be exactly the same in every chip produced. If that mixing point drifts from chip to chip, Hardt and his colleagues have developed algorithms that adjust equipment to correct the drift."
13:35 < kanzure> o.o that's a weird way to get around your inability to model the chip
13:35 < kanzure> `"Most of the academic work in microfluidics concentrates on applications, and unfortunately only very few concentrate on the actual manufacturing technologies suited for industrialization," Becker says.`
13:35 < lichen> well there's modeling
13:35 < lichen> and then there's testing
13:37  * kanzure nods
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13:44 < lichen> you should have the email btw
13:44 < delinquentme> kanzure,  "do it in software"
13:44 < delinquentme> but i agree
13:45 < lichen> software modeling is cheaper long term
13:45 < delinquentme> if you're mfg things ... isnt part of the "point" that they're consistet?
13:45 < lichen> yup
13:45 < kanzure> lichen: yes your doc looks good to me.
13:45 < lichen> cool cool
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14:05 < jrayhawk> http://deaimuryou.eek.jp/up/src/up5767.jpg
14:06 < lichen> is that a google maps filter
14:07 < kanzure> it's their april fools day thing
14:07 < lichen> lol neat
14:08 < delinquentme> lol
14:08 < delinquentme> what does purple represent?
14:08 < lichen> fresh water probably
14:08 -!- jennicide [jen@173-19-241-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:08 < lichen> or is that radiation
14:09 < delinquentme> zombies
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14:09 < lichen> its not purple when i open it up on gmaps
14:11 < lichen> map data is copyright square enix
14:11 < lichen> lol
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14:11 < lichen> hahahhaa
14:11 < lichen> even street view is dif
14:17 < chris_99> http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/manufacturing-polymer-microfabrication-0329.html
14:17 < kanzure> chris_99: note the quotes from that document above^
14:17 < chris_99> aha
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14:23 < kanzure> hi yashgaroth
14:23 < yashgaroth> 'sup
14:23 < kanzure> http://asymptoticdesign.wordpress.com/2012/03/10/diy-scope/
14:24 < kanzure> oh i didn't look at the rest of his stuff..
14:24 < kanzure> http://asymptoticdesign.wordpress.com/open-source-science/pyinstrumentation/
14:24 < kanzure> "pyInstrumentation is an object-oriented library for connecting to serial, usb, and rs232 busses with python programs. The code is meant to be written in an simplistic and straightforward way to help even non-programmers connect to their instrumentation for automated data analysis and acquisition."
14:24 < kanzure> https://github.com/asymptoticdesign/pyInstrumentation
14:24 < yashgaroth> I like the scope
14:27 < delinquentme> kanzure, thoughts on how to verify that something is XML other than parsing the whole document?
14:28 < kanzure> by looking at it.
14:28 < kanzure> mimetype in the http header
14:28 < kanzure> xmlschema as specified by the document
14:28 < kanzure> running it through an xml stream parser (xmlpp)
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14:38 < kanzure> hi skorket
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14:40 < kanzure> gahh i was just stabbed in the back by a cache invalidation problem
14:48 < thesnark> urg
14:48 < thesnark> stupid algo
14:48 < thesnark> needs to be run 200M times
14:49 < skorket> hey kanzure
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14:54 < kanzure> yo nmz787
14:54 < kanzure> did you see that polymer imprint microfluidics article today
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15:15 < nmz787> yo
15:15 < nmz787> i just woke up like an hour ago
15:15 < nmz787> :P
15:15 < nmz787> late night, late morning i guess
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15:24 < kanzure> klafka: feeling better/worse?
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15:30 < nmz787> kanzure: hmm, no i didnt see that article
15:31 < kanzure> nmz787: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/manufacturing-polymer-microfabrication-0329.html
15:31 < kanzure> nmz787: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-03-31.log
15:35 < thesnark> omg algorithm worked
15:35 < thesnark> america, fuck yeah
15:37 < thesnark> (coming again to save the motherfuckin day yeah)
15:40 < kanzure> sing it again! but this time replace america with "me, me me me"
15:43 < thesnark> me, me me fuck yeah
16:04 < skorket> how does one use a microfluidic chip to diagnose AIDS?
16:04 < nmz787> probably add blood to the chip, and do PCR on it
16:04 < nmz787> or some affinity assay
16:04 < skorket> oh, and did you guys see this post on adafruit: http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/03/30/resin-based-3d-printer-kit/
16:04 < nmz787> using the protein that HIV binds to on CD4 and CD8 cells
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16:05 < skorket> nmz787, meaning you have a mini heating element and have a supply of taq or something right on the chip?
16:06 < nmz787> yeah
16:08 < skorket> ah, so this is nothing that's really robust or portable.  You store the chip in a refrigerator until you need it, use it once or twice then throw it away?
16:09 < skorket> I shouldn't say robust...
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16:33 < nmz787> microfluidics is just smaller, cheaper because it uses less reagents for each test
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16:41 < skorket> right, it's just making a mini lab on a chip, pre packaged and ready to go
16:41 < skorket> my only point was that it's really a streamlined industrial process rather than a thing meant for hobbyist use (no reason to think it would be, I'm just trying to understand)
16:42 < kanzure> skorket: microfluidics can and has been used by hobbyists
16:42 < skorket> kanzure, in what way?  link?
16:42 < kanzure> in fact, we're making a hobbyist microfluidics platform for dna synthesis
16:42 < kanzure> all the hackteria/microfluidics stuff
16:43 < kanzure> all of jonathan cline's EWOD microfluidics stuff
16:44 < skorket> 'we' as in you and some other people?
16:44 < kanzure> as in me and some other people in here
16:45 < skorket> I can find information on that if I do a google for 'hackteria/microfluidics'?
16:45 < kanzure> no, you will get hackteria's microfluidics stuff
16:45 < skorket> how are you doing DNA synthesis with microfluidics?
16:46 < kanzure> it's like regulr synthesis except micro
16:46 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/synthesis.html
16:46 < kanzure> *regular
16:47 < skorket> that's pretty awesome.  How close are you?  How fast do you expect to be able to synthesize?
16:48 < kanzure> i'd say six months close
16:49 < kanzure> the goal is at most a minute per reaction
16:54 < nmz787> hobbyist is really a monetary level/class
16:55 < nmz787> as well, i guess it has something to do with making things on your own
16:55 < nmz787> hobby microfluidics is quite involved
16:55 < nmz787> bordering on not being a hobby, so much, i think
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16:59 < kanzure> nmz787: i dunno. a cheap laser cutter (<$5k) + some cheap microfluidics equipment
16:59 < kanzure> the per-chip cost will end up being cost of materials
16:59 < skorket> nmz787, but you could also imagine shrinky dinks + HV to get something ghetto that might work
17:00 < skorket> Not that I have that know-how but that's at least within reach
17:00 < kanzure> hv?
17:00 < skorket> high voltage...
17:00 < skorket> which is what I'm assuming you're using to move water around?
17:00 < kanzure> i don't know anyone that has accomplished anything with shrinky dinks yet
17:00 < kanzure> no.. pumps
17:01 < skorket> interesting...but high voltage is another option, no?  What pumps do you use?
17:07 < skorket> or maybe I'm asking the wrong question?
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17:35 < kanzure> skorket: you could do electrowetting.. yes
17:35 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/
17:35 < kanzure> see the EWOD papers for electrowetting on dielectrics
17:38 < strangewarp> Doing some light carpentry. Whee!
17:38 < strangewarp> The things you have to do, to get a decent wooden enclosure for your musical electronics :p
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18:10 < nmz787> kanzure: price wise you're right it should be <$10... or even <$5k
18:10 < nmz787> kanzure: but price isn't cost :D
18:10 < nmz787> kanzure: cost factors in time as well
18:11 < nmz787> kanzure: what I meant was that as a hobby, I think it currently requires much more time and involvement/devotion than say R/C cars
18:11 < nmz787> or R/C airplanes
18:11 < kanzure> hrm, maybe
18:11 < kanzure> some people spend >5 hours/day on their computer hobbies
18:12 < skorket> kanzure, 5+ hours per day when you have a full time job that isn't your hobby requires an extreme amount of energy and devotion
18:13 < kanzure> really?
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18:14 < skorket> 9am - 5pm is your job.  Factor in 1-2 hours for transport and dinner, so call it 8am that you wake up, 6pm that you get home and are ready to work on your hobby
18:14 < skorket> 5 hours puts you at 11pm.
18:15 < skorket> No TV, no social interaction, no walks, no movies
18:15 < skorket> I'm not saying some people don't do exactly that, I'm only pointing out that it takes a lot of energy or devotion
18:16 < kanzure> 2 hours for transport/food? well there's 2 hours..
18:17 < skorket> right...
18:18 < nmz787> i spend a shitload of time cooking, sometimes
18:18 < kanzure> i just hire people to cook
18:18 < nmz787> psh
18:18 < nmz787> not the same quality
18:19 < nmz787> not as much customization
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18:20 < kanzure> nmz787: well, to be fair, i don't mind eating the same thing most days
18:20 < kanzure> or, i would prefer to if i could figure out a good diet of that
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18:33 < ParahSailin> i eat sweet potatoes with rendered grassfed beef fat most days
18:33 < ParahSailin> and meat
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19:15 < katsmeow-afk> sweet potatoes with rendered grassfed beef fat ,, and to think i wasted a whole dollar at a book sale for the 2.5 inch thick book : "How To Cook Everything"
19:15 < katsmeow-afk> turns out, i don't want to eat everything, or cook everything
19:16 < katsmeow-afk> a few things i don't even want to touch
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19:36 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, NOM NOM NAWM
19:40 < nmz787> katsmeow: is that by mark bittman?
19:41 < katsmeow-afk> i don't remember, it's upstairs and i am not
19:41 < katsmeow-afk> i am , however, eating dinner, food i prolly shouldn't be eating, but i been good for weeks
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19:48 < katsmeow-afk> anyone for peppermint wheat?
19:48 < katsmeow-afk> The first experiments with plants genetically modified to repel aphids are under way in the UK.
19:48 < katsmeow-afk> Wheat has been engineered with a gene from a peppermint plant so that it emits a particular pheromone.
19:53 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, you've been fasting?
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19:53 < katsmeow-afk> no, but eating a lot less, ~1/4 normal, and 4x more protien than normal
19:54 < katsmeow-afk> actually hit the us rda on it
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20:00 < delinquentme> ketosis?
20:01 < nmz787> sounds like atkins
20:02 < nmz787> but katsmeow said they weren't fasting
20:02 < nmz787> so shouldn't be ketosis, right? I thought that's pretty much only mentioned if in fasting state
20:03 < katsmeow-afk> it was just reduced calorie and more protein, it's no big deal, except that i stayed with it
20:06 < ParahSailin> i cant get hungry enough
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20:33 < augur> is there any cheap screen-mounted eye tracking available?
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20:36 < sylph_mako> How accurate do you want it?
20:36 < augur> not sure it matters
20:41 < augur> in fact, a generic software solution would be ideal
20:41 < augur> webcam + software type thing
20:41 < augur> doesnt have to be very good
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21:15 < delinquentme> lovely. lovely lovely
21:20 < kanzure> it working?
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21:41 < delinquentme> running tests
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22:32 < delinquentme> kanzure, is this better as a instance var or as a normal var? http://pastie.org/3707204
22:37 < nmz787> augur: might need two cameras for stereoscopic vision for best results... i have a friend that I can ask about it, he does experiments with eye tracking during ppl talking in ASL (american sign language)
22:37 < nmz787> i guess stereoscopic viz goes back the question, how accurate do you want the results
22:38 < augur> nmz787: accurate enough to make a nice little videogame with it :p
22:38 < augur> so it doesnt have to be *too* accurate
22:38 < augur> maybe only accurate enough to detect blinks
22:39 < nmz787> hmm, so up down left right? or duck-hunt?
22:40 < nmz787> kanzure: I know a guy at GE healthcare, not sure if he would know, but should I ask about the price of the AKTA oligopilot?
22:44 < augur> nmz787: the idea is you'd be a character with telepathy, and to use it, you have to focus on the target
22:44 < augur> namely, staring without blinking
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23:00 < sylph_mako> Make laservision duck hunt bro.
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23:29 < katsmeow-afk> http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/privatebrowsing.pdf
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23:53 < nmz787> katsmeow-afk: pretty cool paper
23:55 < superkuh> No Opera. :\
23:57 < katsmeow-afk> must be a way using two separate computers, one to run the browser on only as a display unit, and one to proxy and reformat and examine the data sent to the dispay unit
23:58 < katsmeow-afk> it may be too much trouble for the average user, but some of us have more than one puter running at a time anyhow
--- Log closed Sun Apr 01 00:00:16 2012