--- Log opened Tue Apr 03 00:00:19 2012
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02:21 < lichen> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JNyUVSoiAE
02:25 < diginet> sigh, I miss the old Gene Raym now he's just a racist jerk
02:25 < lichen> oh?
02:26 < diginet> yeah read timecube, he just rants about transracial relationships or something
02:26 < lichen> oh that shit
02:26 < lichen> lol
02:26 < diginet> yeah
02:26 < lichen> FOUR SIDES
02:26 < lichen> FOUR RACES
02:26 < lichen> blah blah blah
02:26 < diginet> I prefer truthism.com or .net, whichever it is
02:27 < diginet> it's like the grand unified theory of conspiracy theories
02:27 < lichen> hehe
02:27 < lichen> reminds me of the first time i played through deus ex
02:27 < lichen> just kept cramming more and more conspiracy theories in
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04:08 < kanzure> nmz787: yo
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04:26 < fenn> that n.clavipes spider looks very familiar: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_5304.JPG
04:33 < fenn> neat, i always wanted to mess around with gnuradio but didn't want to mess around with the ADC problem, but it seems RTL-SDR blows that problem away
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05:30 < superkuh> Yeah. I have the latest gnuradio git with the rtl block compiled and two E4k tuner devices on the way.
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05:57 < fenn> is there anything similar in the GHz range? is this even possible?
05:58 < fenn> i'm more interested in just finding sources of radio emissions
05:59 < fenn> if i need protocol-specific hardware to actually read it, that's fine
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06:01 < fenn> DVB-T means cable television? or am i on the wrong track
06:02 < fenn> "terrestrial television transmissions" is sort of confusing wordage
06:04 < fenn> all these technical words get used sloppily in the TV realm
06:17 < superkuh> I know nothing of the standards or intended uses of the hardware. I just saw the tuning range and became excited. Join ##rtlsdr .
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07:55 < fenn> well produced video about layered construction techniques for micro UAV http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/02/22/mass-produced-microbots/
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08:08 < fenn> "Methane-fueled thin film micro-solid oxide fuel cells with nanoporous palladium anodes"  methanol seems like a better choice for bees
08:09 < fenn> even better, glucose
08:10 < fenn> i'd expect someone's already got a working glucose->H2 bacteria-based converter
08:26 < ParahSailin> glucose to methane is a lot easier
08:27 < _Sketch_> hey fenn, thanks for the info,
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08:42 < fenn> http://www.singularityweblog.com/implants-or-dentures-how-about-regrowing-your-own-teeth/
08:43 < fenn> _Sketch_: peter jansen on thetricorderproject.org may be releasing a new thermal camera technology later this year, check back in a few months
08:43 < fenn> er, tricorderproject.org
08:47 < kanzure> fenn: hi
08:49 < delinquentme> KANZURE
08:49 < delinquentme> WHUT CAN WE PITCH
08:49 < delinquentme> NO MAEK DELAY
08:49 < kanzure> what?
08:49 < kanzure> we can pitch whatever we want?
08:50 < fenn> heh those teeth are made of poly caprolactone (aka shapelock)
08:51 < delinquentme> nah but im asking whats exitable in 2 years
08:51 < delinquentme> y comb 150g
08:51 < delinquentme> thatd feed a few people
08:51 < delinquentme> you get the CSO title
08:51 < delinquentme> DEAL?
08:51 < kanzure> ycombinator will not really take on an open source hardware/biotech project
08:51 < delinquentme> k
08:52 < delinquentme> specifically. why
08:52 < kanzure> because that's not what they are interested in
08:52 < delinquentme> lemnos
08:52 < fenn> ycombinator doesn't really care about projects (or so they say)
08:52 < kanzure> fenn: name one team that got in without a project
08:52 < delinquentme> register with both
08:52 < delinquentme> http://ycombinator.com/noidea.html kanzure
08:53 < kanzure> i know that page exists, but again.. name ne team that got in without an idea
08:53 < kanzure> *one
08:53 < delinquentme> listen
08:53 < delinquentme> they care about $$
08:53 < delinquentme> that is it
08:53 < delinquentme> fuck the high science
08:53 < delinquentme> is what im saying
08:53 < delinquentme> build shit that makes greenbacks
08:53 < kanzure> oh is it that simple?
08:53 < delinquentme> PAUSE I NEED TO PEE
08:53 < delinquentme> BRB
08:54 < delinquentme> yes bc its engineering and not research
08:54 < kanzure> i wasn't aware you're able to predict what will give you money
08:54  * ybit waves hi
08:54 < fenn> we could make a soft drink that extends periods between having to urinate
08:55 < ybit> hi fenn
08:55 < kanzure> antidiuretic?
08:55 < fenn> hello
08:55 < fenn> no, just a bladder-numbing agent
08:56  * _Sketch_ laughs
08:56 < delinquentme> been done its called orbitz http://media.egotvonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Orbitz-soft-Drink.jpg
08:56 < delinquentme> it has urine absorbing balls
08:56 < kanzure> i just don't see how to realistically convince ycombinator to fund open source hardware projects
08:56 < kanzure> hell, upverter isn't even open source
08:56 < delinquentme> ...
08:56 < kanzure> and scienceexchange isn't
08:56 < delinquentme> kanzure, you're missing the point
08:56 < delinquentme> its not "open source"
08:57 < delinquentme> i mean its not that they DONT func open source..
08:57 < ybit> any of you want to work for masten?
08:57 < ybit> they need a programmer
08:57 < delinquentme> you're assuming false negatives
08:57 < _Sketch_> Okay, Kindles are only $99. How much for a 8x8 pad of 2-color eink?
08:57 < ybit> it's proprietary stuff, but it's interesting work
08:57 < kanzure> ybit: what's the gig?
08:57 < kanzure> delinquentme: not really. i've sent in many applications that i've spent >20 hours working on (each)
08:57 < kanzure> delinquentme: i got to the final round once. was nice..
08:57 < fenn> ybit: programming what?
08:57 < ybit> you real-time flight data from the vehicles and can send commands to the vehicles
08:57 < kanzure> what's the pay?
08:58 < delinquentme> kanzure, soooo lets do it again?
08:58 < ybit> robotic rockets
08:58 < ybit> kanzure: no clue
08:58 < delinquentme> O_o;;;
08:58 < kanzure> delinquentme: i still don't know what idea you're pitching me
08:58 < delinquentme> robotic rockets
08:58 < ybit> but you get a free view of the night sky
08:58 < delinquentme> kanzure, im saying something, anything
08:58 < delinquentme> ybit what language
08:58 < ybit> in all its mojave glory
08:58 < fenn> _Sketch_: $99, you can't buy the raw material or even a component (last i checked)
08:58 < ybit> any
08:58 < delinquentme> so php ybit
08:58 < ybit> do it!
08:58  * delinquentme lulz
08:58 < ybit> honestly, that's what they told me
08:59 < kanzure> delinquentme: ok so be smart for a second. why would they fund you if you have no way to make money?
08:59 < delinquentme> kanzure, they've got enough $ to keep us busy
08:59 < delinquentme> kanzure, why is open source == non-monetary?
08:59 < kanzure> what? who the fuck said that?
08:59 < delinquentme> you did
08:59 < _Sketch_> fenn: Damn!
08:59 < kanzure> no. i said THEY think that
08:59 < kanzure> fuck you
08:59 < kanzure> stop putting words into my mouth
08:59 < delinquentme> why would they fund you if you have no way to make money?
08:59 < kanzure> yes, that too
09:00 < kanzure> right now you're just saying "Yo, YC, give me some money so I can build some hardware, kthx"
09:00 < delinquentme> so listen we do X
09:00 < delinquentme> and open source P(x)
09:00 < delinquentme> process of x
09:00 < _Sketch_> fenn: Why can't we get cool stuff? :/
09:00 < delinquentme> im saying if you're building shit and you've got clients
09:00 < kanzure> what clients
09:01 < ybit> also startupology is looking to send someone to the mojave desert full-time
09:01 < delinquentme> those utterly impossible ones to get
09:01 < ybit> for OSE stuff
09:04 < delinquentme> kanzure, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095816690900144X  << can u get me dis?
09:04 < ybit> if anyone's interested in either of these, send me an email and i'll forward you the appropriate info (heathmatlock@gmail.com)
09:04 < kanzure> ybit: sure.. email it over
09:05 < ybit> k
09:07 < kanzure> delinquentme: maybe you should submit the open source antibody kit idea for ball-busting big pharma (rare blood disease drugs)
09:08 < delinquentme> ???
09:08 < kanzure> see what they say
09:08 < delinquentme> im not sure I know what you're talking about?
09:09 < kanzure> ycombinator applications -_-
09:09 < delinquentme> kanzure, the open source antibody kit
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09:09 < delinquentme> it sounds like research required
09:09 < kanzure> kit of hardware to make antibodies
09:10 < kanzure> no making antibodies does not require research
09:10 < delinquentme> you're saying lets make that
09:10 < kanzure> antibodies are a known thing
09:10 < kanzure> no
09:10 < kanzure> i am saying you should write that into the application and test whether or not they will accept you
09:10 < fenn> consider ycombinator's perspective, that they actually don't have the expertise to judge whether something is important/needed/feasible
09:11 < delinquentme> yes so it needs to be simple
09:11 < kanzure> if they do accept you on the "no idea" track, they will probably pick a market for you and just give you 12 of their ideas, then tell you to come back in a week with an implementation of one of them
09:11 < delinquentme> we have income .. we need to scale X process to up income
09:11 < delinquentme> give us money to do this
09:11 < kanzure> we don't have inome
09:11 < kanzure> *income
09:11 < kanzure> what the hell man
09:11 < delinquentme> ...
09:11 < delinquentme> no shit
09:11 < kanzure> so why would you lie about it
09:11 < delinquentme> 1) decide to do something
09:11 < delinquentme> 2) do it
09:11 < kanzure> that doesn't mean there will be paying customers just because #2
09:11 < delinquentme> 3) figure out what needs scaled
09:12 < fenn> sounds like a bastardization of feynman's algorithm
09:12 < kanzure> the world has absolutely zero obligation to pay you for the work that you want to be doing
09:12 < fenn> (originally: 1) define the problem, 2) solve the problem)
09:12 < delinquentme> kanzure, but you sure as shit wont get paying customers without it
09:12 < kanzure> umm
09:12 < kanzure> you can be smarter about it and find the customers first
09:12 < kanzure> this is what business is
09:12 < kanzure> you find customers and figure out what they need and how much they would pay for this problem to go away
09:13 < delinquentme> sure thats one way
09:13 < delinquentme> can you get me that paper kanzure
09:13 < delinquentme> plz
09:13 < delinquentme> decellularizing pig kidneys would be cheap as fuck
09:13 < delinquentme> and that shit is implant acceptable
09:13 < fenn> good luck with the FDA
09:13 < kanzure> just making random things, and then praying that there are customers, is not a good business model
09:13 < delinquentme> it seems like that could make $$$ but I need to figure out the specifics
09:14 < delinquentme> fenn, we already implant pig hearts
09:14 < fenn> after zillions of dollars spent in clinical trials and red tape
09:14 < delinquentme> then we fucking sell to mexioc
09:14 < delinquentme> mexico
09:14 < delinquentme> next issue
09:14 < delinquentme> pesos or rupees
09:14 < delinquentme> im not a banker im not worried about arbitrage
09:14 < kanzure> ok. do you know anyone in mexico who will pay for a pig heart?
09:15 < delinquentme> atiempo no
09:15 < delinquentme> kanzure, how many questions do you want to ask me
09:15 < delinquentme> you know i dont currently have all the answers
09:15 < delinquentme> soooo
09:15 < fenn> you could sell novelty two-headed dogs
09:15 < kanzure> it's not my job to fix your broken ideas man :(
09:15 < kanzure> i'm just trying to help you out
09:15 < delinquentme> fenn,  we could also engineer eternal puppies
09:16 < kanzure> i think applying to ycombinator is a good idea
09:16 < delinquentme> agreed
09:16 < delinquentme> lemme verify these hearts
09:16 < kanzure> i think applying to ycombinator with something they want is an even better idea
09:16 < delinquentme> gut on a chip
09:16 < kanzure> and what they want is a business.
09:16 < delinquentme> correct
09:16 < delinquentme> fucking agreed to hell
09:16 < delinquentme> thats what I want
09:16 < kanzure> not "I don't know any customers"
09:16 < delinquentme> yeah true
09:17 < delinquentme> but  before customers nedsz ideah
09:17 < kanzure> ok. so pig hearts are a bad idea then.
09:17 < kanzure> no
09:17 < delinquentme> plez
09:17 < delinquentme> paper
09:17 < fenn> i'm sort of divided on this issue in general; people don't really know what they want until you stick it under their nose
09:17 < delinquentme> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095816690900144X
09:18 < delinquentme> fenn, if I asked the customer what they wanted they'd have said "a faster horse"
09:18 < delinquentme> but this is masturbation
09:18 < kanzure> a car is a faster horse except it eats gas
09:18 < delinquentme> we know full well whats valuable here
09:18 < kanzure> no
09:18 < kanzure> we know what's valuable to /us/
09:18 < delinquentme> no kanzure  we do
09:18 < kanzure> not what's valuable to the people with money
09:18 < delinquentme> yes and anythign which starts to smell like something like organ replacement or regen medicine
09:18 < kanzure> you have to go ask them
09:19 < delinquentme> is worth shitloads
09:19 < delinquentme> fUCKKK
09:19 < delinquentme> can u get that paper
09:19 < delinquentme> do i need to beg elsewhere
09:19 < kanzure> ah well the biotech VCs in general won't fund you unless your team of 5 has 12 PhDs
09:19 < delinquentme> ignoring ^
09:19 < delinquentme> thats a shitty defeatist view
09:20 < kanzure> have you ever, ever pitched to all the biotech VC groups?
09:20 < kanzure> fuck funding anyway
09:20 < kanzure> what is your actual idea and how much money do you need
09:21 < delinquentme> kanzure, my idea is get 3 or 4 kids from in here who want to work on something related to regen medicine
09:21 < delinquentme> that we think we can deliver on in 1 year
09:21 < delinquentme> and do that
09:21 < kanzure> ok. why not work on the microfluidics project instead?
09:22 < delinquentme> the oligos?
09:22 < kanzure> oligo and gene synthesis
09:22 < delinquentme> no totally do that
09:22 < delinquentme> but I dont think i fit in that project
09:22 < kanzure> why?
09:22 < delinquentme> so if thats what you guys want to do you should do it
09:22 < delinquentme> its not my skillset?
09:22 < delinquentme> like i could program and draft
09:23 < kanzure> but regenerative medicine is?
09:23 < delinquentme> ahah
09:23 < delinquentme> i mean if im building bioreactors to pump detergent .. thats not hard
09:23 < kanzure> but yeah, drafting is useful
09:23 < delinquentme> and that is regen medicine
09:23 < kanzure> and clearly there's a need for software
09:24 < delinquentme> can I get that material again?
09:24 < delinquentme> like the Powerpoint
09:24 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf
09:31 < kanzure> fenn: what's the current status on that anyway?
09:31 < delinquentme> gut on a chip http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/biomedical/devices/researchers-build-gut-on-a-chip
09:31 < kanzure> are we waiting until we figure out some unsolved problem?
09:31 < kanzure> or should we start building the mini laser cutter
09:32 < kanzure> nmz787: thoughts?
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09:33 < fenn> nobody's raised any objections about keeping it at langton
09:33 < nmz787> for SU?
09:33 < kanzure> fenn: reeeaalllyyy
09:35 < kanzure> nmz787: no for just building this stuff
09:37 < delinquentme> xenotransplantation of porcine valves
09:37 < nmz787> basically we need to find a gantry base, or sit down and find all the parts we want
09:37 < delinquentme> To date, pig skin and pig valves have been used in human transplants, but not entire organs.
09:37 < delinquentme> bingo
09:38 < kanzure> nmz787: i thought fenn suggested a slide stage
09:38 < delinquentme> you know how many pig hearts are around?
09:38 < nmz787> ahh
09:38 < nmz787> right
09:38 < kanzure> are you against the slide stage plan
09:38 < delinquentme> do you know how cheap that shit it
09:38 < nmz787> kanzure: nah, easier but prob higher price
09:39 < nmz787> kanzure: the prob is still there, we need to find a stage
09:39 < kanzure> on the other hand... >6 inches of travel with a gantry and 1 micron resolution would be totally rad
09:41 < nmz787> making a gantry for micron res could be tricky too, the rails have to be parallel and square
09:41 < nmz787> if we screw that up, anomalies could creep into cut pieces
09:46 < delinquentme> didnt we have someone who was an expert in here in growing cell structures?  kanzure
09:46 < delinquentme> like someone who was at a research institute?
09:47 < kanzure> delinquentme: yes
09:47 < kanzure> jmil..
09:47 < delinquentme> kanz nmz787 you guys are cutting the oligos by laser?
09:47 < delinquentme> not aqui huh
09:47 < kanzure> no we are not cutting oligos by laser
09:48 < nmz787> cutting silicone
09:48 < nmz787> for which to synthesize oligos in
09:48 < delinquentme> ah
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09:48 < delinquentme> i told you about the micron resolution linear magnetic encoder right
09:49 < delinquentme> but its *magnetized*
09:49 < delinquentme> but you can shield it
09:49 < nmz787> no
09:49 < nmz787> tell us more
09:50 < nmz787> i dont think magnetics matter during cutting
09:50 < fenn> LVDS is a pretty common position sensing approach
09:50 < fenn> LVDT*
09:50 < nmz787> low voltage differential signalling?
09:50 < nmz787> oh, what is that?
09:51 < fenn> linear variable differential transformer http://www.rdpe.com/displacement/lvdt/lvdt-principles.htm
09:51 < delinquentme> nmz787, http://store.makerbot.com/magnetic-linear-encoder-v1-2-kit.html
09:51 < fenn> you can stack up ball bearings in a tube to use as the "ruler"
09:51 < delinquentme> its bloody brilliant and I looked into the chip
09:51 < delinquentme> you can shield it with pretty simple strips of iron
09:52 < delinquentme> but if you only need 1 you're golden
09:52 < delinquentme> and 50 bucks for 15 micron res?
09:52 < delinquentme> yeah thats awesome
09:52 < nmz787> but then you depend on the bearing's being manufactured to the tolerances you want
09:52 < fenn> i thought that was a rotary encoder, how would it work as a linear encoder?
09:53 < fenn> also why not just use an optical encoder?
09:53 < diginet> Gentlemen, I had an epiphany last night: a way CVD monocrystal diamonds might be feasible
09:54 < fenn> catalysts?
09:54 < diginet> well yes, I already knew that catalysts can create monocrystals, it's just they're expensive, you have to use platinoids metals
09:54 < diginet> BUT, then I remembered, what is a good source of them? Catalytic converters
09:54 < fenn> why is that expensive? you don't need very much
09:55 < diginet> can one but sub miligram quantities of platinum?
09:55 < diginet> *buy
09:56 < fenn> http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Wire-Gauge-99-9-6-inches/dp/B004NJL72O
09:57 < fenn> huh you can even buy 2 inches for $23
09:58 < fenn> ok now wrap that wire around your tungsten heating element, put into sputtering chamber, voila
09:58 < delinquentme> fenn, theres both a rotary and linear
09:58 < diginet> well, I'm using a more advanced process than hot filament
09:58 < diginet> but, wow, that's a good deal
09:58 < diginet> thanks fenn
09:58 < delinquentme> diginet, what are you working on?
09:59 < diginet> well, right now spider silk, but I have a more long term goal of diamond semiconductors (monocrystal diamond is necessary for this)
10:00 < diginet> if you coat the substrate with a platinoid metal, one can grow monocrystal diamond heteroepitaxilly
10:00 < delinquentme> you're building spider silk?
10:01 < diginet> that's the goal, yes, but I'm quite a ways from there
10:02 < diginet> the full gene for the major ampullate/dragline silk of N. Clavipes (the best readily available species) has not been fully sequenced
10:04 < delinquentme> biohack spiders for modified silk
10:04 < delinquentme> ?
10:04 < diginet> I plan on using SF9 cells, so then I'll need to see if any codon optimization is necessary, then insert the gene into the cells, and harvest the protein (well, there's actually two different ones).  Then I'll need to build an artificial spinneret, but I think that's comparitively easier
10:04 < diginet> they don't produce nearly enough
10:04 < diginet> and forcible silking isn't possible
10:05 < diginet> there is one known spider silk textile in the world, it's like  8 x 5 ft or something, it took hundreds of people 4 years and 1.8 mil spiders to get the required silk
10:05 < delinquentme> diginet, that seems like ... cut them open poke around .. see what stimulates silk production
10:05 < delinquentme> and poke that alot
10:05 < diginet> obviously, the throughput is way too low
10:05 < diginet> doesn't work like that I'm afraid
10:05 < delinquentme> really?
10:05 < diginet> the forming of the fiber is relatively simple anyway
10:06 < diginet> you can just use an electrospinning apparatus
10:06 < diginet> the hard part is getting good quality precursors, the genes are highly repetitive, and tend to be truncated when produced by E. Coli (thus the need for a eukaryotic host)
10:07 < diginet> the natural proteins average around 300-320 kDa, whereas the highest quality ones ever made from E. Coli were 250 or so, but the average seems to be more like 50-60
10:07 < diginet> this significantly limits the mechanical properties of the silk
10:16 -!- deep-fried-art [~hank@lic780-1q81qn1.library.appstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:17 < kanzure> hi deep-fried-art
10:17 < kanzure> have you found a project yet?
10:17 < deep-fried-art> hey
10:17 < deep-fried-art> not yet, I'm swamped with stuff that I actually have to do
10:17 < deep-fried-art> just reading when I get the chance
10:18 < kanzure> you work for infosec?
10:18 < deep-fried-art> yea, its just an internship... saw you on linkedin lol
10:18 < delinquentme> so the skin gun...
10:25 < deep-fried-art> kanzure: do you have any projects in mind?
10:25 < delinquentme> kanzure, whats the cost on prototing the oligo synthesizer
10:25 < delinquentme> im about to talk w one of the lemnos dudes
10:29 < kanzure> delinquentme: i estimate <$30k at the moment
10:29 < kanzure> deep-fried-art: depends on what you want to be doing.. and if you have any money i guess
10:32 < deep-fried-art> I'm starving student status atm
10:34 < deep-fried-art> But I plan on picking up a used cell biology textbook at some point... any recommendations?
10:34 < delinquentme> kanzure, are the costs in the powerpoint?
10:35 < nmz787> delinquentme: they should be
10:36 < delinquentme> k
10:37 < kanzure> deep-fried-art: "molecular biology of the cell"
10:38 < nmz787> deep-fried-art "molecular biology of the gene"
10:38 < nmz787> :P
10:39 < deep-fried-art> nice, I was on the right track :p
10:39 < nmz787> not sure how to compare the two books
10:39 < kanzure> maybe you should just use wikipedia
10:39 < nmz787> i have the 'gene' one... its also available as a pdf if you search
10:40 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_biology
10:40 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_molecular_biology
10:42 < deep-fried-art> anyone ever read 'the selfish gene'?
10:43 < kanzure> no nobody has ever read dawkins
10:44 < deep-fried-art> :p
10:47 < nmz787> nope
10:50 < delinquentme> isnt there a way to create cheap growth medium?
10:50 < delinquentme> like jello + ground up pig or something
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10:53 < kanzure> delinquentme: sure.. there's been lots of stuff on the diybio group about cheap agar and cheap medium
10:53 < kanzure> by cheap i mean ghetto
10:53 < delinquentme> yeah haha
10:53 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
10:54 < delinquentme> we're speaking the same language
10:54 < delinquentme> mamallian cells?
10:55 < kanzure> mammalian cell culture is usually harder and requires more precise ingredients iirc
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10:58 < delinquentme> phosphoramidite == phos-phor-ami-dite
10:58 < delinquentme> right?
11:00 < kanzure> possibly.. it might be phos-phor-ama-dite
11:00 < kanzure> delinquentme: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/synthesis.html
11:01 < diginet> can't you just use food grade agar? It's super cheap, and available in whole food, or (better yet) east asian grocery stores
11:01 < diginet> *whole foods
11:03 < fenn> you have to add culture medium of some kind to the agar
11:03 < fenn> the reason to use agar in the first place is that bacteria can't digest it
11:05 < diginet> well, I know you have to add nutrients, but I mean is there any fundamental difference between the agar one buys industrially versus at a grocery store?
11:08 < delinquentme> there is grocery store agar?
11:11 < delinquentme> diginet, ^
11:12 < delinquentme> kanzure, thats the synthesis process?
11:12 < kanzure> that's some of the chemistry involved yeah
11:12 < kanzure> yes there is some agar available in grocery stores
11:12 < diginet> Agar is very commonly used in Asian cooking, especially in Japan and Vietnam.  It's also commonly used as a vegetarian friendly surrogate for gelatin
11:13 < delinquentme> you're not talking tofu right
11:13 < diginet> no, tofu is bean curd
11:13 < diginet> agar is an extract of seaweed
11:13 < delinquentme> whats it labeled as?
11:14 < diginet> generally "agar agar" or just "agar" the name comes from Malay, I don't remember why, but the reduplification has some meaning in that language
11:14 < deep-fried-art> yum... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Youkan_mizuyoukan.jpg
11:14 < diginet> Whole foods has it, but it's expensive, I'd go for the powder, but try an easy asian grocery story, much cheaper
11:15 < diginet> deep-fried-art, that looks delicious
11:15 < diginet> I made some mango "jell-o" a few weeks ago with agar
11:15 < diginet> it was good
11:16 < delinquentme> kanzure, TLDR on this is "mix chemicals on the chip"
11:16 < diginet> it's kind of hard to work though
11:16 < delinquentme> i plan on reading it but i just want to make sure thats the overview
11:16 < diginet> *work with
11:16 < deep-fried-art> never had it, that I know of
11:17 < kanzure> delinquentme: i don't understand. what do you want?
11:17 < diginet> delinquentme, I can't say for certain, but it's probably very similar to how one would make jello, mix the nutrients with the agar, and let it set
11:18 < diginet> if you look on youtube, there's a few videos that describe the process
11:18 < delinquentme> kanzure, does the entire synthesis process happen on the chip
11:18 < diginet> one cool part of agar, is that, unlike gelatin, you can melt it and start over if the consistency isn't right
11:18 < kanzure> delinquentme: yes
11:19 < delinquentme> for example if I want to add a C to the current chain .. im simply pumping in some volume of liquids and C nucleotides
11:20 < kanzure> sort of.. it's a multi-step process of washing, capping, adding in the nucleotide you want, decapping, washing... repeating. etc.
11:21 < delinquentme> ah ok
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11:24 < kanzure> hi nmz787
11:24 < nmz787> blah
11:24 < nmz787> hi
11:25 < nmz787> working on sql homework
11:26 < kanzure> LEFT JOIN *.* or something
11:26 < nmz787> any idea why this isnt working?
11:26 < nmz787> ALTER TABLE automobile ADD CONSTRAINT thisIsPriKey Primary Key (vin);
11:26 < nmz787> ERROR 1062 (23000): Duplicate entry '' for key 'PRIMARY'
11:26 < kanzure> err well first "Primary Key" looks odd.. shouldn't it be PRIMARY_KEY or something without a space
11:27 < nmz787> caps dont matter
11:27 < kanzure> is this oracle
11:27 < nmz787> sql
11:27 < nmz787> mysql
11:27 < kanzure> ok just making sure
11:28 < nmz787> ahh
11:28 < nmz787> i think its because i have mutliple null vals in vin
11:28 < nmz787> i need to populate them first
11:28 < nmz787> :P
11:28 < kanzure> sure.. need uniques
11:28 < fenn> this is a reading comprehension test
11:28 < kanzure> heh
11:29 < kanzure> but why does the error message say the column is 'PRIMARY' instead of 'vin'
11:29 < nmz787> err, no
11:34 < nmz787> gah
11:35 < nmz787> what the crap
11:36 < nmz787> ahh
11:36 < nmz787> ok
11:37 < nmz787> i was dumb :P
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11:47 < delinquentme> kanzure, this is both a MFG and service model?
11:48 < delinquentme> the illumina of oligos?
11:48 < kanzure> not really service
11:48 < kanzure> just making a device
11:49 < delinquentme> kk
11:51 < nmz787> this is the oxford nanopore device, of synthesizers
11:52 < nmz787> decentralize synthesis
11:52 < delinquentme> nmz787, have you verified any of these methods?
11:52 < nmz787> which?
11:53 < delinquentme> the synthesis
11:53 < nmz787> its all been done
11:53 < delinquentme> kk
11:53 < nmz787> we're trying to be the marconi's of synthesis
11:53 < nmz787> marconi*
11:53 < delinquentme> do you guys have a pump setup
11:53 < delinquentme> or do I need to build a pump before you can proof of concept?
11:53 < nmz787> (he basically just took other's ideas and smashed them together with a flashy name called wireless telegraph)
11:53 < kanzure> nmz787: oxford nanopore took >8 years and tens of millions of dollars
11:53 < delinquentme> im sure you can borrow one
11:54 < kanzure> or we will just buy a syringe pump
11:54 < kanzure> a syringe pump is not a big deal
11:54 < delinquentme> ^^^
11:54 < nmz787> pumps are done too
11:54 < kanzure> delinquentme: but a nice syringe pump would be super awesome
11:54 < delinquentme> sooo i need to learn this chemistry if i want to contrib
11:54 < nmz787> kanzure: yeah it was an analogy
11:54 < delinquentme> yeah i think thats what im gonna say
11:54 < delinquentme> got this call in 5
11:55 < delinquentme> bascially we've got the people but we're not sure where the crossover between the projects happens
11:55 < nmz787> kanzure: have any idea re: db normalization?
11:55 < kanzure> normalization? o.o
11:55 < delinquentme> kk  brb
11:55 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@216.183.186.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:56 < kanzure> nmz787: what do you mean
11:57 < nmz787> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization
11:58 < kanzure> their example is retarded
11:59 < kanzure> they start with some weird-ass shit and then end up with "customer_id, transaction_id, timestamp, amount" which is what everyone starts with anyway
12:03 < _Sketch_> diamonds can be semiconductors?
12:03 < nmz787> kanzure: nevermind, i'll just go ask the prof
12:03 < kanzure> "An insertion anomaly. Until the new faculty member, Dr. Newsome, is assigned to teach at least one course, his details cannot be recorded."
12:04 < kanzure> nobody does that in real life.. you would have a table where you record faculty members, and a table where you do faculty_courses and then a table for courses
12:04 < kanzure> the faculty_courses table will assign course_id values to faculty_id values
12:04 < kanzure> faculty table: id, name, email
12:04 < kanzure> course table: id, name
12:05 < kanzure> faculty_courses: id, faculty_id, course_id
12:05 < kanzure> now, in reality, the actual schema is more complicated because you have faculty members doing different roles on different classes..
12:05 < ParahSailin> try SiC semiconductors first
12:10 < nmz787> kanzure: yeah, that's part of normalization though, i think
12:11 < nmz787> bbl
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12:24 < kanzure> http://www.mrc-mbu.cam.ac.uk/research/atp-synthase with an animation
12:24 < delinquentme> ok cool sooo
12:24 < kanzure> http://www.mrc-mbu.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/images/image/atpsynanim.gif
12:25 < kanzure> delinquentme: ?
12:25 < delinquentme> kanzure, so jeremy @ lemnos labs invited you / us to apply
12:25 < delinquentme> 50 k
12:25 < delinquentme> 4 weeks
12:26 < kanzure> fenn: what were you saying about lemnos?
12:26 < kanzure> delinquentme: why do i want their money?
12:26 < delinquentme> like if you dont want it cool
12:27 < kanzure> ok so they accepted us, or they want me to pitch them?
12:27 < delinquentme> they encouraged me to apply
12:27 < delinquentme> if we dont need the money then we can buy a company car
12:27 < delinquentme> lol
12:28 < delinquentme> but yeah id love to get all these kids to SV
12:28 < kanzure> their site says "we will consider anything in the hardware field except for microchips"
12:28 < kanzure> so they are against microfluidics
12:28 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.185.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:28 < delinquentme> microfluidics ~= microchips
12:29 < delinquentme> !=
12:29 < delinquentme> yes its close
12:29 < delinquentme> but you get what they're after .. simply not semiconductors
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12:30 < ParahSailin> lemnos labs?
12:31 < kanzure> lemnos is right next door to langton (where fenn lives)
12:31 < kanzure> fenn: what were you saying about lemnos last time we talked about them?
12:33 < delinquentme> oh damn
12:34 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, yeah they're a hardware accelerator
12:34 < ParahSailin> is that what we used to call incubators?
12:34 < delinquentme> haha yeah
12:34 < delinquentme> think of it like a gas pedal
12:35 < ParahSailin> you're close with those guys?
12:35 < delinquentme> umm i've talked to them a few times and jeremy is really awesome
12:35 < delinquentme> thats about all I can claim :D
12:35 < kanzure> fenn lives with some of those advisors
12:36 < ParahSailin> they give out 50,000 for equity?
12:36 < kanzure> that's what incubators tend to do.. yes
12:36 < delinquentme> der i shoulda asked about equity
12:36 < delinquentme> masschallenge is no equity
12:36 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:36 < ParahSailin> i dont understand business model if no equity
12:37 < delinquentme> the only thing is ...
12:37 < delinquentme> they used to have drew endy listed as an advisor...
12:37 < kanzure> ParahSailin: thiel's thing is rev share on IP instead of equity
12:37 < kanzure> endy is an advisor at SU's incubation thing
12:37 < delinquentme> can they only advise one?
12:37 < kanzure> no
12:37 < kanzure> usually "being an advisor" just means your picture is up on their site, and they might call you a few times
12:39 < delinquentme> yeh but i wanna be all
12:39 < delinquentme> YEWWWW ENDY
12:39 < delinquentme> on first approximation!
12:39 < delinquentme> :P~
12:39 < delinquentme> </troll>
12:40 -!- kkulhavy [~kkulhavy@imap.revamp-it.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:40 < kkulhavy> hi
12:40 < delinquentme> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/todd-huffman/1/201/623  << kanz wasnt this dude @ open sci?
12:40 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, kanz is the dude
12:40 < kkulhavy> what does this name hplusroadmap mean?
12:40 < kanzure> todd? yeah.. todd lives at langton
12:40 < kanzure> kkulhavy: transhumanist technical roadmap
12:40 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, check out the MOTD
12:40 < kanzure> kkulhavy: you know.. better, stronger, faster, smarter
12:40 < delinquentme> ^^^
12:40 < kkulhavy> hplus is like human plus?
12:40 < kkulhavy> oh
12:40 < kanzure> hplus is like transhumanism
12:40 < delinquentme> kanz hes who was asking about the agar agar
12:40 < kkulhavy> so i can grow some cells on agar?
12:41 < kkulhavy> I was experimenting with agar when I was making my open-source anti-aging cream
12:41 < delinquentme> im not sure about human
12:41 < kkulhavy> and I am also into open hardware
12:41 < kanzure> what the hell is anti-aging cream
12:41 < delinquentme> but someone in here would know
12:41 < kanzure> we don't really tolerate scammers
12:41 < kkulhavy> i guess this channel is the right place for me
12:41 < delinquentme> kanzure, nogzema
12:41 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, =]
12:41 < delinquentme> cool kids who want to break everything
12:41 < delinquentme> but thats just what I call us
12:41 < kkulhavy> anti-aging cream is you put it on your face and you will look younger
12:41 < delinquentme> aww i just found out william andregg added me on linked in ... what a swell guy
12:42 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, ive used it for bum bleaching
12:42 < delinquentme> lulz~
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12:42 < kkulhavy> kanzure, what do you mean with the scammers? is it a reply on the anti-aging cream?
12:42 < delinquentme> kanzure, im gonna be a part time founder and work "random sidejobs" if we need extra cash
12:43 < kanzure> part time founder to what? haha
12:43 < delinquentme> kanzure, be nice!
12:43 < kanzure> what are you selling
12:43 < kanzure> it just sounds like an incomplete plan
12:43 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, explain the anti aging cream prez
12:43 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, you used anti-aging cream for bum-bleaching?
12:43 < delinquentme> lolol
12:43 < kanzure> kkulhavy: anti-aging doesn't really exist yet
12:43 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, is like a homemade cream with anti-aging ingredients
12:43 < kanzure> lots of people sell creams as a scam
12:43 < kanzure> imho that is intolerable
12:44 < delinquentme> well maybe his is different :D
12:44 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, we're really about how to make steps towards legitimate world change
12:44 < kkulhavy> kanzure, I feel unfairly accused when I talk about my homemade anti-aging cream and you say "what the hell is anti-aging cream" and "we don't really tolerate scammers"
12:44 < delinquentme> ^^^
12:44 < kanzure> kkulhavy: anti-aging creams are everywhere
12:44 < kanzure> THIS: http://www.antiaginganalyst.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Anti-Aging-Cream.jpg
12:44 < kanzure> you will not be living forever with that
12:45 < kanzure> it's a scam
12:45 < kkulhavy> lol :)
12:45 < kkulhavy> I agree I wont live forever with an anti-aging cream
12:45 < kanzure> ok then why are you calling it anti-aging?
12:45 < ParahSailin> its just petroleum jelly with a little bit of a tachyon emitting isotope mixed in
12:45 < kkulhavy> But during making that maybe I find some technique to use for home-made biochemistry- technology or related fields
12:46 < kkulhavy> kanzure, because it contains various ingredients that are scientifically tested to reduce againg in skin
12:46 < kkulhavy> typically wrinkles
12:46 < kanzure> wrinkles don't cause aging
12:46 < kanzure> ok ok i am starting to get the picture
12:46 < kanzure> you mean anti-wrinkle
12:47 < kkulhavy> whatever
12:47 < kanzure> no? i am just trying to understand
12:47 < kkulhavy> i put it on my face and looked like 16 when I am 32
12:47 < kkulhavy> then I though OK thats too much
12:47 < kanzure> i don't understand what looking 16 has to do with living forever
12:47 < kkulhavy> kanzure, well it also contains stuff which promote healing damage and nutrients for the skin
12:47 < kkulhavy> anti-oxidants to reduce free radical damage
12:48 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, you shoudl hang around here more
12:48 < delinquentme> think big
12:48 < delinquentme> thats a solid starting point
12:48 < delinquentme> all I ask is ensure that if you're prototyping / selling something make it legit
12:48 < kkulhavy> i cant make a cream to live forever (yet)
12:48 < kkulhavy> kanzure, what have you done?
12:49 < delinquentme> and I'd also say that the antioxidant market is pretty saturated
12:49 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, what is legit?
12:49 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, I am not selling anything, I published the instructions for free under GNU Free Documentation License
12:49 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, i mean dont make it like a oil of olay product
12:50 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, these are the kinds of projects we build here :D https://github.com/delinquentme/LH002/raw/master/images/LH002_full_01.png
12:50 < kkulhavy> what is it? some well manipulator?
12:51 < kkulhavy> for example I managed to make a skin-permeable peptide extract at home without any technology
12:51 < kkulhavy> I think that could be reused on your project
12:51 < kkulhavy> thats a sketch
12:52 < kkulhavy> do you have a running machine?
12:53 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, here is webpage of my product
12:53 < kkulhavy> http://ronja.twibright.com/retune/
12:53 < kkulhavy> Here is package leaflet containing composition http://ronja.twibright.com/retune/retune_leaflet.pdf
12:54 < kkulhavy> I feel unfairly rejected now here. I think my work is in the same vein as whats going on here.
12:54 < kanzure> what? are you the ronja person
12:55 < kanzure> the optical data interlink stuff
12:55 < kkulhavy> yes
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12:55 < kanzure> i think i've been trying to find an excuse to build some for a while now
12:55 -!- paradox|AFK [~Ted@unaffiliated/paradoxgo] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"]
12:55 < kkulhavy> kanzure, ok
12:56 < kkulhavy> can you do HIV quantitative PCR at home?
12:57 < kkulhavy> and if yes, at what cost? what complicated chemicals required?
12:57 < kanzure> you can do qPCR but what is special about HIV?
12:57 < delinquentme> if the rubber breaks you're a deadman
12:57 < delinquentme> buh dum cha
12:57 < kkulhavy> kanzure, how do you do qPCR at home?
12:57 < kanzure> well first you need a thermocycler
12:57 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, i needs the $$ for protoing
12:57 < kanzure> so you either build one for $25 or buy something used for $200-$500 like openpcr or some crap
12:57 < delinquentme> so eye working on smaller thinger atm
12:58 < kkulhavy> kanzure, HIV is special in the sense I think many people on the world could seriously benefit if cheap DIY HIV qPCR was published opensource
12:58 < kanzure> reagents are pretty easy to acquire.. carolina biosciences sells some
12:58 < kanzure> kkulhavy: ok. but i was asking if HIV means a different qPCR method or something
12:58 < kkulhavy> so some people from central africa will order from carolina biosciences?
12:59 < kkulhavy> In my opinion open source should be portable
12:59 < kanzure> well, if they want to ? i don't really recommend it.. i'd prefer to do protein purification on my own
12:59 < kkulhavy> made from materials cheaply available everywhere
12:59 < kanzure> ok what does that have to do with open source licenses
12:59 < kanzure> i think you mean DIY?
12:59 < kkulhavy> I think if something is DIY opensource then really everyone in the world can use it
13:00 < kanzure> ok? that's generally a truism
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13:00 < kanzure> have you picked a protein purification technique?
13:01 < kkulhavy> Does this machine actually physically exist? https://github.com/delinquentme/LH002/raw/master/images/LH002_full_01.png
13:01 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, newp!
13:01 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, what u mean with newp?
13:02 < kanzure> i think lh001 exists
13:02 < kanzure> lh002 probably doesn't?
13:02 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, it exists in schematics only
13:02 < delinquentme> lh001 is sitting in the attic
13:02 < kkulhavy> can i see photo of lh001?
13:02 < kkulhavy> I find this very interesting
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13:03 < kkulhavy> kanzure, you say build thermocycler for $25 I find that interesting
13:03 < kanzure> thermocyclers tend to be overpriced
13:03 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, http://imgur.com/gkhMd
13:03 < delinquentme> turns out I dont have any images of the machine in that dir
13:04 < kkulhavy> But I guess if I go to central africa and giv a HIV+ person a thermocycler into his hands he will still not be able to figure how many HIV particles per milliliter he has in his blood
13:04 < kkulhavy> I would like to see a complete product
13:04 < kanzure> kkulhavy: http://russelldurrett.com/lightbulbpcr.html
13:04 < kanzure> i think it should be a kit not a single product
13:04 < kkulhavy> Instead of ordering analysis for $$$, you follow simple instructions for $$
13:04 < kanzure> who cares if it is a single product or not
13:04 < kanzure> why do you want money to be involved
13:05 < kkulhavy> kanzure, I feel disrespected when you say "why do you want money to be involved"
13:05 < kanzure> it's an honest question
13:05 < kanzure> why should they pay you for this?
13:05 < kanzure> and why wouldn't they just use free instructions instead
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13:06 < delinquentme> why the hate?
13:06 < kanzure> because he's trying to sell us instructions.. doesn't make sense to me
13:06 < delinquentme> kanzure, its what he wants to do
13:06 < kanzure> or, purpotedly, he'd be selling instructions
13:06 < delinquentme> better than fapping to jersey shore no?
13:07 < kanzure> yes but what happens when i release free instructions
13:07 < kkulhavy> kanzure, I feel disrespected and unfairly accused when you say "because he's trying to sell us instructions"
13:07 < kanzure> you just said so
13:07 < kanzure> < kkulhavy> Instead of ordering analysis for $$$, you follow simple instructions for $$
13:08 < kkulhavy> Oh lightbulb PCR I find this idea great
13:08 < kkulhavy> But I am afraid about the thermal inertia
13:08 < kanzure> there are other designs. lightbulb is fairly primitive
13:08 < kkulhavy> On the page I cant actually see the vessel where the liquid is put
13:08 < kanzure> openpcr is $500 and sorta overpriced for what it is
13:09 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, http://imgur.com/a/rXkEx#0
13:09 < delinquentme> there u go
13:10 < kkulhavy> wow, amazing!
13:10 < kkulhavy> what can the machine do?
13:10 < kkulhavy> suck liquid into the pipettes and eject into other wells?
13:10 < delinquentme> umm dispense liquids :D
13:10 < delinquentme> no aspiration .. just dispensing
13:10 < kkulhavy> I saw a similar machine at my doctor
13:11 < delinquentme> i made a few gross underestimates on peristaltic pumps :D
13:11 < kkulhavy> one can see it running from the waiting room
13:11 < delinquentme> thats cool
13:11 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, what country are you located in?
13:11 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, that means only putting liquids from the pipettes out, not into them?
13:11 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, switzerland
13:11 < delinquentme> yeah just dispensing
13:11 < delinquentme> HA! so you know Tecan
13:11 < kkulhavy> oh peristaltic pump I find it elegant
13:11 < delinquentme> yeahhhh
13:11 < kkulhavy> Whos tecan?
13:11 < delinquentme> OOOo
13:11 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, and the machine number 2 will have aspiration?
13:12 < delinquentme> BIG liquid handlers
13:12 < kkulhavy> no i dont
13:12 < delinquentme> yeah #2 is micnasty
13:12 < kkulhavy> micnasty?
13:12 < delinquentme> mcnasty**
13:12 < delinquentme> hhaha yeah like really complex
13:12 < kkulhavy> what is mcnasty? nickname?
13:12 < delinquentme> mcnasty == complex and feature-filled
13:12 < kkulhavy> aha
13:12 < delinquentme> mcnasty == " does lots of stuff "
13:13 < kkulhavy> so what kind of homemade bio can you do with this new machine?
13:13 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, the idea is to make something that people can prototype and program to do any kind of liquid moving
13:13 < delinquentme> basically the shitty stuff that grad students do with pipettes
13:13 < delinquentme> something to reinforce separation of human and machine tasks
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13:14 < fenn> kkulhavy: are you clock from #brlcad?
13:14 < kkulhavy> and this will be used to promote homemade transhumanism?
13:14 < kkulhavy> fenn, yes
13:14 < kanzure> fenn: lemnos labs rant?
13:14 < ParahSailin> you want to make cheap open source automated liquid handling?
13:14 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, http://www.atlanticlabequipment.com/images/products/Tecan%20Freedom%20EVO200_430.JPG << tecan evo
13:14 < kanzure> ParahSailin: correction.. delinquentme has already done that
13:14 < kkulhavy> ParahSailin, I dont want to make it, I just want that it exists
13:15 < delinquentme> kanzure, <3
13:15 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, correct
13:15 < ParahSailin> thats pretty cool, where can i get
13:15 < delinquentme> like im just bastardizing someone elses ideas
13:15 < kkulhavy> oh it looks similar
13:15 < delinquentme> well thats where i fucked up
13:15 < delinquentme> it needs more work bc its too fucking expensive
13:15 < kkulhavy> like why do I have to go to doctor to figure out if I have say influenza or not?
13:15 < delinquentme> its 1/6th the cost
13:15 < delinquentme> but it should be 1/60th
13:16 < kkulhavy> why do I have to pay quite some money every time I want to know how much vitamin D is in my blood?
13:16 < delinquentme> so I need to run some rep-rap style hacks on it
13:16 < ParahSailin> how would you reduce that cost
13:16 < kkulhavy> I think today is so much possibilities with DIY that one could have a machine to load the blood and run some kind of program
13:16 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, amen. you should be able to hack a blood glucose meter to get that no?
13:16 < kkulhavy> I believe I am able to hack anything
13:16 < kanzure> glucose meter wont tell you influenza
13:16 < kkulhavy> It just costs time
13:17 < delinquentme> time and some knowledge
13:17 < kkulhavy> In my experience knowledge is in the Internet
13:17 < delinquentme> correct me if im wrong here but the strips that people use for testing on those are nothing more than engineered bits of paper
13:17 < kkulhavy> I made homemade pH indicators
13:17 < delinquentme> kind of what that one guy @ mit did for some 3rd world diseases on color change paper
13:18 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, right now there are a few parts which i've over engineered
13:18 < kkulhavy> I took Curcuma spice, put into rubbing alcohol, then filter through coffee filter and dip strips of paper into the yellow liquid
13:18 < kkulhavy> it has boundary around pH 9 or 10
13:18 < delinquentme> basically replace whatever I can with threaded rods
13:18 < delinquentme> swap out arduinos for custom made MCs which are small and cheap
13:18 < kkulhavy> we have arduino in the work
13:19 < ParahSailin> how many arduinos are used?
13:20 < fenn> i think "except for microchips" means they don't want to throw millions at wafer fab costs
13:20 < delinquentme> 1 on each 8 channel dispenser head
13:20 < delinquentme> they're each handling only 1 stepper 1 linear actuator and a string encoder
13:21 < ParahSailin> so a bunch of them
13:21 < delinquentme> so a custom PCB could run so much cheaper and give me more FLOPS
13:21 < delinquentme> well the current machine is designed to handle i think 12 cores?
13:21 < delinquentme> id have to verify .. but the string encoder i sourced for it is limited @ 36"
13:21 < delinquentme> but thats the limiting factor
13:22 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, you should def hang out in here more
13:22 < delinquentme> i like the DIY ph meter
13:23 < kanzure> don't mind me being grumpy about "anti-aging" claims
13:24 < kanzure> kkulhavy: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
13:25 < kkulhavy> where is DIY pH meter?
13:25 < delinquentme> kanzure, its just you're hugely into hard science and the idea of aging cream carries much commerical baggage
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13:25 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, i mean home made pH indicators
13:25 < delinquentme> fenn you're with us now?
13:26 < delinquentme> yeah like i totally think microfluidics != semiconductors
13:26 < kkulhavy> delinquentme, Oh it was just a 2-colored indicator not pH meter
13:26 < kkulhavy> But now I wonder
13:27 < kkulhavy> I used calibrated digital camera to measure changes in skin color as a result of sun tanning
13:27 < kkulhavy> And there I learned to calibrate digital camera precisely
13:27 < delinquentme> image recognition == awesome
13:27 < kkulhavy> if one could use these rainbow papers, photograph them and software would convert the picture into precise pH reading
13:27 < delinquentme> ive got a friend whos done it in matlab
13:27 < delinquentme> but education ruined him
13:27 < kkulhavy> done what?
13:27 < delinquentme> so now hes trying to work for the DoD lulz.
13:28 < ybit> kanzure: the position at Masten changed to an internship position in the Fall with potential to for full-time, apparently it's now on their website
13:28 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, image recognition .. like outline tracing
13:28 < kkulhavy> matlab not opensource is it?
13:28 < ybit> so, blah
13:28 < delinquentme> automated cell counts
13:28 < kkulhavy> aha
13:28 < ybit> i can forward you the OSE Mojave stuff if you want it
13:28 < kkulhavy> yeah
13:28 < delinquentme> kkulhavy, the free version i stole is
13:28 < delinquentme> :D
13:28 < delinquentme> OSE mojave == OS matlab?
13:28 < delinquentme> MATLARB
13:28 < kkulhavy> anyone is doing photographing from microscope with digital camera?
13:28 < delinquentme> MARTLARB
13:30 < kanzure> kkulhavy: http://diybio.org/2009/12/13/webcam-microscope-hacks-at-bosslab/
13:31 < kkulhavy> I know GNU R and gnuplot
13:31 < ybit> kkulhavy: make sure you have a decent base for the camera
13:31 < kkulhavy> ybit, what u mean with decent base?
13:32 < kkulhavy> prevent shaking?
13:33 < fenn> gah i can't read backlog fast enough
13:33 < diginet> matlab is an abomination
13:33 < kkulhavy> abdomination
13:34 < ybit> s/base/stage that and the camera don't need to move
13:34  * kkulhavy abdominates on matlab
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13:34 < kkulhavy> ybit, why do you suggest to have a decent base?
13:34 < kkulhavy> stage
13:34 < ybit> without base: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MS2KYxQbfg&context=C4b40f9cADvjVQa1PpcFPf9E3GqOEjqtPGsFijKuySKoIo-CIvP-I=
13:34 < kkulhavy> I think even with indecent stage you can move the slide and then make a picture cant you?
13:35 < ybit> you can
13:35 < ybit> but the video sucks
13:35 < ybit> with a base: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4idmYWMDk4&context=C404fb40ADvjVQa1PpcFPf9E3GqOEjqjiMnYyJ8YRF7wsRuKy91i8=
13:35 < kkulhavy> why is the image shaking in the video=
13:35 < ybit> 13:34 < ybit> without base:
13:36 < fenn> kkulhavy: i've done this simply by holding the camera up to the microscope. an easy way to hold them together is with shapelock (polycaprolactone)
13:36 < kkulhavy> aha :)
13:36 < kanzure> fenn: singularity is when ##hplusroadmap backlog grows faster than any of us can read it?
13:36 < fenn> octave is open source equivalent of matlab
13:37 < kkulhavy> what about removing lens and eyepiece and focusing from objective directly on CCD?
13:37 < fenn> i don't have anything particularly interesting to say about lemnos labs
13:37 < kanzure> but just use python instead of octave.. then you get scipy and other nice things like numpy, sympy, etc.
13:37 < kkulhavy> This way I made a super-tele-lens webcam from old film camera and cheap webcam
13:37 < ybit> kkulhavy: i tried that, didn't work
13:37 < ybit> ..with 3 webcams, but you might have better luck
13:38 < fenn> simon field (of scitoys.com) put a microscope objective in a DSLR where the lens usually goes, it worked very well
13:38 < kanzure> delinquentme: i think it would be better to work on this project and, if lemnos is interested in it, they can choose to invest
13:38 < kkulhavy> aha
13:38 < kkulhavy> ybit, so what happened exactly?
13:39 < kkulhavy> did you get black picture? white? defocused picture?
13:39 < ybit> one of those
13:39 < ybit> i can't recall
13:39 < ybit> i'm going with defocused
13:39 < delinquentme> kanzure, you're saying dont apply?
13:40 < fenn> the objective was really close to the ccd, practically inside of the camera body
13:40 < fenn> which makes sense considering the objectives usually have focal length of 10-20mm
13:42 < kkulhavy> my microscope objective to ocular distance is about 15cm
13:42 < kkulhavy> I wouldnt put objective close to CCD
13:42 < fenn> why not?
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13:42 < kkulhavy> then the magnification would be reduced I think and the objective not running in situation for which it was optimized
13:42 < kanzure> hi capiscuas
13:42 < fenn> a lens is a lens is a lens
13:43 < capiscuas> hi kanzure
13:44 < kanzure> capiscuas: what brings you here? :)
13:44 < capiscuas> hmm, openhardware, i'm interested, and u?
13:44 < Vicarious> ohai
13:45 < fenn> ah cool it's actually online. kkulhavy have a look at this: http://sciencehackday.pbworks.com/w/page/47743279/sfhacks2011#hack_9
13:46 < kanzure> are those slides stained?
13:46 < kanzure> yes it looks like it
13:47 < kkulhavy> hehe magnet holding slide
13:47 < kkulhavy> I find this ingenious
13:48 < kkulhavy> But the Canon DSLR is kinda expensive for my open source hardware taste
13:48 < kkulhavy> You will need
13:48 < kkulhavy> 1 piece of duct tape, 4 magnets, 2 plumbing parts and one Canon DSLR
13:49 < kkulhavy> One microscope objective
13:49 < kkulhavy> I go to ironmogers "good morning, do you have microscope objectives?"
13:49 < delinquentme> for an academic ...
13:49 < kkulhavy> "yes sure, they are on the left side, between flowerpots and rakes..."
13:49 < delinquentme> does " thats not my area of expertise " mean " I'm too lazy" ?
13:53 < kanzure> probably
13:53  * fenn mumbles something about DMAE
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13:54 < kanzure> AsiaNet
13:55 < delinquentme> k
13:55 < delinquentme> BRB
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14:01 < folmat>  C - the +7 chain mail of Sonkash (worn) {Dex+1 Int+4}
14:01 < folmat> oh wow
14:03 < fenn> shoo
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14:06 < kanzure> thesnark: update me?
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14:27 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competing_endogenous_RNA_(CeRNA)
14:28 < kanzure> "RNA transcripts, both protein-coding and non-coding, thus have the ability to compete for microRNA binding and co-regulate each other in complex ceRNA networks (ceRNETs). The ceRNA language represents an added trans-regulatory dimension to mRNA biology besides the protein-coding function"
14:28 < yashgaroth> yep
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14:32 < skorket> so these RNA strands can inhibit or express other RNA strands?
14:32 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.185.227] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:32 < fenn> huh. "[rats who had listened to mozart] had increased gene expression of BDNF, a neural growth factor, CREB, a learning and memory compound, and synapsin I, a synaptic growth protein, in their hippocampus, as compared to control rats who had listened to equivalent amounts of white noise."
14:33 < yashgaroth> usually it's just inhibit, but if you have yet another RNA inhibiting that inhibition, then that turns into expression
14:33 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, those are my two fav choices to listen to
14:33 < skorket> wow, so there it is, a full RNA computer
14:33 < fenn> DJ white noise
14:33 < yashgaroth> why did they use white noise as a control and not dubstep or something
14:33 < kanzure> and where were they measuring these molecules?
14:33 < kanzure> in the hippocampus?
14:34 < skorket> if there was ever any doubt that the cell is doing, or at least has the potential to do, complex computation, that dispells it
14:34 < fenn> i suppose so
14:34 < yashgaroth> it seems like complex computation, but for biologists it just becomes a total clusterfuck
14:34 < kanzure> skorket: you should look at the dna computation stuff from winfree's lab
14:34 < kanzure> skorket: http://dna.caltech.edu/
14:36 < skorket> hmm, details are scarce and much of it is private
14:36 < kkulhavy> When I listen to Mozart, I have elevated expression of cerebroborin, a protein that is secreted when I am bored
14:37 < kkulhavy> yashgaroth, yeah, I like dubstep
14:37 < kkulhavy> What about dubstep Mozart?
14:37 < kkulhavy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABBDGuwxCYY&feature=fvst
14:37 < kkulhavy> oh but this one is Beethoven.
14:37 < skorket> kanzure, tricking systems into performing turing machine equivalent computation is pretty easy.  I was more pointing out that there might be a level of complexity in the cell that's just now coming to light
14:38 < fenn> i'm so sick of dubstep
14:38 < kanzure> cerebroborin just means you have a genetic disease that allows you to become bored
14:38 < kanzure> boredom is a disease! or something
14:38 < kkulhavy> correction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PQXddD3uYU
14:38 < kanzure> wait maybe i have that backwards
14:38 < fenn> ableton effects != music
14:38 < kkulhavy> what about tricking sytems into not breaking down after 80 years of operation?
14:38 < kkulhavy> fenn, :)
14:39 < kanzure> "equivalent amounts of white noise" sounds sorta vague; does this mean that they had the same pitches or something
14:39 < kanzure> like maybe the effects of mozart are not due to melody but instead due to tones
14:40 < katsmeow-afk> or tone ratios
14:40 < kanzure> maybe you should just plug an auditory cortex up to an mp3 player in a simulation
14:40 < kanzure> archels: isn't that your job?
14:41 < katsmeow-afk> mozart vs white noise is like concrete vs styrofoam
14:42 < fenn> only one other piece of music has been found to have a similar effect; a song by the Greek composer Yanni, entitled "Acroyali/Standing in Motion"
14:42 < fenn> great. can't say i'm particularly a fan of yanni
14:42 < kanzure> fenn maybe you are being trolled
14:42 < kkulhavy> katsmeow-afk, lol
14:42 < katsmeow-afk> then the task shold be comparing that yanni vs that mozart, forget white noise
14:43 < jrayhawk> um, i don't think they were interested in discovering what the best music is
14:43 < jrayhawk> that would take a rather large budget
14:44 < fenn> yes epilepsy.org.uk is run by trolls
14:44 < katsmeow-afk> i understand, but the only commonalities they studied was the few fenn copy-pasted about?
14:44 < kanzure> i wonder if they were sure that their white noise was statistically white noise or not
14:45 < katsmeow-afk> anyhow, their research methods and goals simply differ from what i'd do, that's all <shrug>
14:45 < kanzure> skorket: there are also things such as genetic regulatory networks.
14:46 -!- F71 [~Adium@safekick-americas-2.consolidated.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:46 < kanzure> hello F71
14:46 < F71> Ha, finally
14:46 < kanzure> F71: we are talking about a random mozart vs. white noise mouse study
14:46 < kanzure> F71: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-03.log
14:46 < fenn> sorry i got carried away reading http://ririanproject.com/2006/11/03/22-ways-to-overclok-your-brain/
14:46 < kanzure> diginet: F71 is in your area btw
14:47 < F71> Fenn is in H-town?
14:47 < katsmeow-afk> it's almost 5pm, i think i'lltake a baseball bat to the road gate and wait on UPS there
14:47 < diginet> oh hey F71, you're apparently in Houston? I am too
14:47 < F71> Cool. Have you been by TX/RX yet?
14:47 -!- thesnark|dnd [~thesnark@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:48 < diginet> that I have not
14:48 < fenn> "Be a thinker, not a drinker."
14:48 < skorket> kanzure, yep, but from speaking with biologists, they tend to think of them as kind of second order effects or things that are simple when compared to protein expression.  One could just as easily say 'computation networks' instead of 'regulatory networks' but I feel like most biologists would scoff at that term.  Completely my opinion and of course I just might be wrong...
14:48 < diginet> it's rather far from my house, and I don't drive
14:48 < diginet> but I'll have to make it a point to go there at some point
14:48 < F71> Wait, Meredith introduced me to you at house of pies, right?
14:49 < kanzure> meredith was in houston?
14:49 < diginet> wait
14:49 < diginet> I've never met any of you
14:49 < skorket> For example, how does a fingernail cell know to grow a fingernail?  Or a hair follicle cell know to grow a hair follicle?  From a very high level, there must at the very least be some level of computation to know just the position of the cell so that it can do it's function properly
14:49 < F71> Meredith comes down to houston about twice a year to hang out.
14:49 < kanzure> skorket: it's not by position of the cell.. it's by the gradient of molecules nearby
14:49 < skorket> kanzure, you say tomato
14:50 < kanzure> skorket: also look up pluripotency and induced pluripotency like in stem cells. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/stem-cells/
14:50 < fenn> also, pantha du prince has been scientifically demonstrated to have the mozart effect
14:51 < skorket> anyway, the idea is that computation needs to happen on some level.  The mechanism of which I would bet is DNA/RNA regulatory networks like the one described above
14:52 < Stee|> goddamn, ieet is a cesspool
14:52 < Stee|> anything that's not the main journal
14:52 < kanzure> ieet is just anti-transhumanist filth
14:52 < kanzure> they might claim otherwise but..
14:52 < diginet> what is ieet?
14:53 < kanzure> http://ieet.org/
14:53 < Stee|> kanzure: They all perceive themselves as transhumanists.
14:53 < kanzure> "The Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies was formed to study and debate vital questions "
14:53 < diginet> I know this is a trans-humanist channel, but I don't see how that term has any meaning considering we're nowhere near that level of tehcnology
14:53 < diginet> it's like being pro-android or something
14:53 < diginet> (I came here for DIYbio though)
14:53 < skorket> diginet, just wait, it's happening already
14:53 < F71> Well, early start I guess
14:53 < kanzure> diginet: we already have the tech
14:53 < diginet> what is?
14:53 < kanzure> what you smoking?
14:54 < kanzure> we have steroids, nootropics, awful prosthetics, brain implants, brain stimulation, genetic engineering, gene therapy, ..
14:54 < diginet> I wouldn't want any of those
14:54 < diginet> not right now anyway
14:54 < F71> Oh, Kanzure, I can't find that awesome list of gene thereapy treatments banned from the olympics
14:54 < kanzure> and because you don't want it, it makes it not transhumanist?
14:55 < F71> nor the associated papers
14:55 < kanzure> F71: one sec..
14:55 < skorket> There was a guy a few years ago who had a camera wired into his brain.  He was blind but was able to see with the implant
14:55 < F71> the links went dead
14:55 < kanzure> F71: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene_doping_for_sports_enhancement.png
14:55 < diginet> no I'm saying the term seems meaningless, getting a brain implant doesn't mean you are no longer human
14:55 < kanzure> diginet: ok then just use the word "human enhancement"
14:55 < diginet> okay
14:56 < Stee|> transhumanist doesn't mean no longer human
14:56 < kanzure> i agree the "speciest" stuff isn't helpful
14:56 < Stee|> it's the transitory stage to posthumanist
14:56 < Stee|> (in the original definition of the word, sorry kanzure)
14:56 < fenn> -_-
14:56 < F71> Humanity+
14:56 < diginet> well, how do you feel about guys like Ray Kurzweil? because I think he's a crank, and most imaginings of the "singularity" and tenuous at best and sound more like the rapture for atheists
14:56 < kanzure> i think ray is too popular
14:56 < diginet> *are
14:56 < kanzure> ray takes the "sit back and wait for things to happen" philosophy
14:56 < diginet> I love how he claims to have mad tons of "accurate" predictions
14:56 < fenn> PPAR-delta is the one i would want
14:57 < diginet> *made
14:57 < kanzure> diginet: you can read more of my complaints against ray here.. http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
14:57 < diginet> cool
14:57 < Stee|> anyway
14:57 < F71> I like Kurzweil. I think about him every time I use a flatbed scanner, OCR, and Text-to-speech to convert a textbook for a blind person
14:57 < Stee|> the whole rapture for atheists thing is often used as a way to attack something without debating specific parts of the science
14:57 < Stee|> I attack the whole 'hard ai' thing
14:57 < F71> I think he's deteriorated, and that he's killing himself with vitamins
14:58 < diginet> text to speech? unless I've missed out on something, it's rather horrible
14:58 < kanzure> text to speech has improved but i wouldn't credit any improvements to ray
14:58 < fenn> ieet isn't necessarily "anti transhumanist" but they generally cause more distraction by "promoting debate about ethics" than actual progress
14:58 < kanzure> fenn: they are anti- in the sense that they end up at ideas that inhibit transhumanism
14:58 < diginet> here's the thing though, the whole idea that "transhumans will be so far removed that we can't understand them" is just hand-waving
14:58 < diginet> why can't we understand them?
14:58 < fenn> kanzure: like what ideas?
14:58 < kanzure> diginet: who says that?
14:58 < diginet> I hear it all the time
14:58 < kanzure> fenn: precautionary principles applied to policies
14:59 < diginet> or variations there on
14:59 < kanzure> diginet: maybe your other friends suck :(
14:59 < Stee|> diginet: I can think of posthumans reaching that stage, given a few priors
14:59 < Stee|> however, it's speculation, not prediction
14:59 < diginet> so what would be so instrinsically different?
14:59 < fenn> kanzure: i think many typically start with the precautionary principle and then try to justify their values
14:59 < Stee|> perception of ego is one option
15:00 < Stee|> sheer speed of thought for an unaugmented human is another
15:00 < diginet> see, that's again, something without rigour
15:00 < Stee|> I did say it was speculation
15:00 < fenn> diginet: try reading some iain banks novels, most of the machines and trans-humans are perfectly sociable
15:00 < diginet> I've heard of his stuff, familiar with it
15:00 < diginet> the culture sounds terrifiying
15:00 < Stee|> I have no doubt they will be able to interact with us on our level
15:00 < fenn> terrifying like a honda civic
15:00 < Stee|> I just don't think that an unaugmented human will be able to interact with a posthuman on its level
15:01 < kanzure> diginet: are you arguing that human enhancing technologies are impossible, or just that there's a lot of cranks?
15:01 < diginet> the latter
15:01 < F71> It's not like being superintelligent will make you superautistic
15:01 < Stee|> right
15:01 < kanzure> F71: why not
15:01 < kanzure> F71: maybe i want to be superautistic damn
15:01 < F71> hahahah
15:01 < Stee|> does not necessitate :P
15:01 < diginet> One thing I find very disturbing about transhumanism, or like-minded philosophies is the trend of neo-eugenics
15:01 < diginet> people like Peter Singer really disgust me
15:01 < kanzure> diginet: yeah, we try not to use that word in here
15:01 < kanzure> because everyone has their own definition of "eugenics"
15:02 < Stee|> define what you mean by eugenics, yeah
15:02 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.185.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:02 < kanzure> Stee| for instance is pro-eugenics in the sense of "Force everyone to be enhanced or else"
15:02 < Stee|> yup
15:02 < kkulhavy> what is neo-eugenics?
15:02 < diginet> Okay, that's fair enough
15:02 < diginet> Stee|'s
15:02 < kanzure> diginet: but msot of the extropians are "i am only talking about my own personal enhancement"
15:02 < kanzure> "personalized human enhancement"
15:02 < diginet> what if I don;t want to be enhanced? Do I not have sovereighnty over my own body?
15:03 < fenn> you can pay for emergency room care, or preventative medicine. either way it's society's burden, one is just more efficient
15:03 < kanzure> http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm
15:03 < Stee|> diginet: I view all loss of intelligence as irreversible and tragic. You can put yourself away in cryogenic sleep for as long as you want though.
15:03 < fenn> if you're not born yet, no, you don't have sovereignty (and you don't anyway, not according to the existing governments)
15:03 < kanzure> diginet: i am just warning you that Stee| has some negative opinions that will scare you
15:03 < kanzure> and i'd like to add that we don't support those opinions really
15:03 < diginet> Well, genetic enhancement doesn't exist yet, so that's a moot point
15:04 < diginet> it's not like we're right around the corner to super-babies
15:04 < kanzure> well depends on your definition of super
15:04 < Stee|> I have a number of very extreme opinions that fall out of my arbitrarily chosen ethics
15:04 < kanzure> you can do some genetic work on babies already
15:04 < fenn> for example, ultrasound exams
15:04 < kanzure> well i was thing IVF and genome changes but ok
15:04 < fenn> a simple ultrasound will allow you to screen many genetic defects
15:05 < kanzure> *thinking
15:05 < F71> I'd like to see some testing and RNAi on the embryo to fix sickle cell
15:05 < F71> Just suppress the promoter that turns of the fetal hemoglobin expression
15:05 < F71> *off
15:05 < fenn> unfortunately there are religious nutsos in control of the legislature, to the point where a doctor in kansas is not legally obligated to tell you the results of an ultrasound if he thinks it may cause you to abort the baby
15:05 < diginet> But okay, let's take an example close to me: my brother has low-functioning autism, he suffers from mental retardation, I'm sure there's a lot of people in these sorts of circles who think such a life is a waste, but he has feelings, and has the ability to have meaning.  People like Peter Singer, who I hate, would support infanticide of him.  Now, I don't support the idea of NOT fixing those problenms if we could (autism is
15:05 < diginet>  hard to screen for, I don't think there is really a way to)
15:06 < diginet> but, who is one to decide whether another's life is worthy?
15:06 < kanzure> nobody is deciding that
15:06 < Stee|> which is why I support enhancing everyone :V
15:06 < kanzure> fuck Stee| you are just muddling this conversation up
15:06 < kanzure> right now you are not strong enough to force everyone to be enhanced
15:06 < kanzure> so stop acting like it
15:07 < Stee|> however, preemptive screening of autism, or even managing to change whatever chemical or genetic whatever factors in the womb may cause it is also something I support
15:07 < fenn> oh great another bioethicist (peter singer)
15:07 < diginet> so, enforcing neurotypicality?
15:07 < kanzure> no
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15:08 < diginet> should we also enforce race?
15:08 < kanzure> no
15:08 < kanzure> who is saying any of that?
15:08 < kanzure> just ignore Stee|
15:08 < diginet> Stee|
15:08 < kanzure> ignore him
15:08 < Stee|> ignore me
15:08 < Stee|> argue with me later in pm if you want so I don't get banned
15:08 < diginet> Basically here's my point: human enhancement has the potential to help a LOT of people. Of course I'm for that. But, with power comes responsibility. What I fear is the devaluation of human life, and the grace consequences
15:08 < kanzure> the reality is that he does not have the technology to force everyone to be enhanced right now
15:08 < diginet> *grave
15:09 < kanzure> theoretically it is possible that in 100 years he might be a super ai thing that will force the planet to succumb to his will
15:09 < kanzure> but you have typial ai run-away scenarios that are more extreme than "everyone being enhanced" to worry about in that scenario anyway
15:09 -!- kkulhavy [~kkulhavy@imap.revamp-it.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:09 < Stee|> my capabilities are irrelevant to diginets concerns, go back to arguing interesting things
15:09 < fenn> arguably paperclips are the supreme form of human existence
15:10 < diginet> Also, a lot of trnashumanist ideas seems to reek of hedonist utopias, which scare me more than anything
15:10 < F71> hedonism is booooring
15:10 < kanzure> diginet: i think it would be better if your autistic friend had people that loved him and were able to take care of him *regardless* of what people like Stee| want to do to him
15:10 < diginet> kanzure, exactly, thank you :)
15:10 < kanzure> now, his friends might decide that it would be in his interest to undergo some procedure
15:10 < kanzure> or he would decide something, i don't particularly care
15:10 < diginet> If I could help him, of course I would, I see him struggle to exist on his own
15:11 < diginet> what I'm saying is that the noble goal of helping people has the potential to be hijacked by people like Singer who scare the ever-living hell out of me
15:12 < kanzure> yes, well, that's a problem *anyway* in our current society
15:12 < kanzure> so you should think of a general solution
15:12 < fenn> could you elaborate on what it is that peter singer is saying that you disagree with?
15:12 < kanzure> like, what if you had a "Fork everything" button
15:12 < kanzure> and could just take all your technology and infrastructure and libraries with you, to somewhere else where those freaks can't get yuo
15:12 < fenn> i'm reading singer's website and it all looks pretty standard boring bioethics stuff
15:12 < diginet> Well, he thinks that infanticide should be allowed if parents decided they don't feel like dealing with them, regardless of reason
15:13 < diginet> he also thinks disabled babies should be killed
15:13 < kanzure> *should be* or "should be allowed to be"?
15:13 < skorket> diginet, do you think abortion is a crime?
15:13 < diginet> if I answer, will you not get mad?
15:13 < kanzure> "is a crime" is a question of current law
15:13 < skorket> yeah, sorry, I should be more specific...do you think it should be allowed
15:13 < diginet> I will preface it by saying my views on that are seperate
15:13 < fenn> "should be a crime"
15:14 < diginet> I think, that it is disgenous to say that embryos are not humans, the question is whether they are people
15:14 < diginet> that is a tricky question
15:14 < diginet> I don't pretend to know, but the idea of a woman getting an abortion because she was just being irresponsible and doesn't "feel like" having it makes me uncomfortable
15:15 < diginet> I'm not saying all accidental pregnancies are because of irresponsibility though
15:15 < skorket> diginet, may I ask a hypothetical question?  Say you want to have a child with someone and two weeks after insemination you discover the baby has severe retardation.  Would you consider aborting the fetus in that case and trying again?  Or do you consider that unethical?
15:15 < fenn> the idea of being forced to raise an unintentional child for the rest of your life makes me uncomfortable
15:16 < diginet> I don't see how retardation matters, unless the child would just be a vegetable.  If the embryo has a deformity that would almost unquestionably result in death, then yes abortion is fine
15:16 < F71> I bought some Plan B on my lunch break. I'm sure the theoretical baby would have been awesome, but I'd rather have that baby on my own time.
15:16 < skorket> diginet, but that wasn't the hypothetical.
15:17 < diginet> I don't see why the life of a down's syndrome child is less meangful than a normal one, why does intelligence make ones life more valuable?
15:17 < skorket> diginet, or maybe you've answered it.  So you consider abortion in that case to be unethical?
15:17 < diginet> yes
15:17 < skorket> ok, just getting a base line
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15:17 < fenn> diginet: how do you feel about killing insects?
15:17 < fenn> what about plants?
15:17 < diginet> skorket, thanks for not being combative, I appreciate that
15:18 < diginet> fenn, if you're going to say that's the same, please don't
15:18 < kanzure> are humans somehow better than plants?
15:18 < fenn> i think there's a gradation
15:18 < kanzure> diginet: if you have a tumor, should you kill it?
15:18 < fenn> in intelligence, not "better", whatever that means
15:18 < kanzure> wait
15:19 < fenn> shh
15:19 < kanzure> if you have a tumor, is it morally repugnant against you to kill it?
15:19 < diginet> an embryo is not a tumor, an embryo is the result of the reproductive mechanism, a tumor is a defect
15:19 < kanzure> tumors are also via reproduction
15:19 < diginet> that's a strawman if I ever heard one
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15:19 < kanzure> how do you think the tumor cells get there? magic? :x
15:19 < diginet> a tumor has no potential to become a seperate organism
15:20 < diginet> yes, you can claim that's true of every cell, with cloning, but that's an artificial process
15:20 < kanzure> not quite true.. you can generally convert any tumor cell into a pluripotent cell
15:20 < diginet> yes, okay look at it like this
15:20 < kanzure> anyway, what do you find special about embryos and fetuses? the brain?
15:20 < diginet> you know the trolly paradox?
15:20 < kanzure> why not scan the brain and toss the fetus
15:20 < kanzure> win-win?
15:20 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-160-124.umd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
15:21 < diginet> okay, if my brain is scanned, and then I'm killed, and then that's put into a computer, that's not me
15:21 < diginet> that's a copy of me
15:21 < kanzure> what is "me"
15:21 < diginet> have you seen "The Prestige" ?
15:21 < diginet> unless consciousness is a "thing" it's not just because something is physically identical, that the thread of your consciousness would float over to it
15:22  * fenn wouldnt mind a few copies hanging around
15:22 < kanzure> ok you also believe in consciousness
15:22 < kanzure> i am no longer interested in this conversation
15:22 < diginet> wait
15:22 < diginet> hold on
15:22 < diginet> I didn't say I did
15:22 < diginet> I'm no dualist
15:23 < diginet> but I don't buy the idea that our feeling of consciousness is an illusion, what is experiencing that illusion then?
15:23 < kanzure> your brain
15:23 < skorket> diginet, I think you secretely are a dualist.  You should examine that in more detail
15:23 < kanzure> your brain is experiencing that illusion
15:23 < diginet> but why does what we call consciousness exist at all?
15:23 < kanzure> i don't call it consciousness
15:23 < kanzure> i call it the brain
15:23 < diginet> why does that illusion exist?
15:23 < kanzure> social pressure
15:23 < diginet> that makes no sense, at all
15:24 < kanzure> "hey man, we all have consciousness, you do too"
15:24 < Stee|> diginet: why does there have to be a why?
15:24 < ybit> thanks for the link fenn
15:24 < ybit> that's pretty amazing
15:24 < fenn> which link?
15:24 < Stee|> I'm willing to say that there's an illusion of consciousness and that I want to maintain it (unlike kanzure)
15:24 < Stee|> but I don't think there's a why
15:25 < ybit> fenn: dslr microscope
15:25 < diginet> but expriencing something requires consciousness, how can one experience an illusion of exprerience?
15:25 < Stee|> that's the homunculus problem
15:25 < diginet> exactly
15:26 < Stee|> consciousness is the illusion, experience is an illusion, all of these things are convenient ways to refer to stuff that doesn't really exist except as a colloquial abstraction
15:26 -!- _0bitcount [~0bitcount@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:27 < diginet> how could one be self-aware without being conscious?
15:27 < fenn> diginet: it exists because it was evolutionarily more favorable than it not existing
15:27 < Stee|> yeah, these are all words that are useful in conversation, but not so much their own thing
15:27 < diginet> do you believe there is a difference between knowing I exist, and "Kevin keith exists" being stored in my brain
15:27 < fenn> one is declarative and one is procedural knowledge
15:27 < uniqanomaly_> could you guys theorize at #ai?
15:28 < fenn> uniqanomaly_: it's monthly no-philosophy exception day
15:28 < kanzure> uniqanomaly_: normally i would agree with you
15:28 < kanzure> but he's trying to use this as an argument against transhumanism or something?
15:28 < diginet> I'm not
15:28 < kanzure> i have lost the train of thought then
15:29 < diginet> if you mean transhumanism as improving the quality of people's lives, then sure
15:29 < fenn> it was a guilt by association argument anyway
15:29 < diginet> no, I'm not indicting anyone here
15:29 < kanzure> no i mean transhumanism as in improving *me*, i don't care about other people (except in as much as i make open source things)
15:29 < fenn> we could debate the actual issues instead, that would be more interesting
15:29 < diginet> why don't you care about other people?
15:30 < diginet> I mean, you don't have friends?
15:30 < diginet> family?
15:30 < kanzure> i meant within the context of transhumanism, i don't care about forcing yuo to be enhaned
15:30 < kanzure> *enhanced
15:30 < diginet> oh okay
15:30 < kanzure> that's not particularly my goal in this
15:30 < diginet> well, I guess I don't really care about improving myself, save for my mind
15:31 < diginet> but there's no realistic way to do that right now, that I know of, so it's kind of a moot point
15:31 < kanzure> nootropics?
15:31 -!- juul [~juul@68.65.169.151] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:31 < kanzure> hi juul
15:31 < fenn> "We decide for ourselves in what ways to change or to stay the same. Self-direction means being clear about our values and our purposes. Having clear purpose in life not only brings both practical and emotional rewards but also protects us against manipulation and control by others."
15:31 < juul> hi kanzure
15:31 < diginet> what nootropics are there?
15:31 < fenn> quite a lot
15:32 < Stee|> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropics
15:32 < diginet> such as? you mean, like stimulants?
15:32 < Stee|> http://reddit.com/r/nootropics
15:32 < diginet> I've read that before
15:32 < F71> Aside from Provigil and amphetamine salts
15:32 < fenn> stimulants work, believe it or not
15:32 < diginet> I take them
15:32 < diginet> for ADHD
15:32 < diginet> they don't make me smarter, just able to concentrate
15:33 < kanzure> what is "smarter"
15:33 < fenn> it's important to lay out in advance the purpose for which you're taking a drug, especially if it's in a category that has abuse potential
15:33 < F71> I made an smart drink a while back with two grams of piracetam per bottle
15:34 < diginet> what is there in the literature, in the way of rigorous studies on whether they provide any measurable benefit?
15:34 < fenn> F71: i'm sure it tasted disgusting
15:34 < Stee|> diginet: Which ones and in what way?
15:34 < diginet> any
15:34 < F71> I managed to mask it very well with some concentrated muscat grape juice
15:34 < Stee|> uh
15:34 < Stee|> there's a lot
15:34 < F71> All it seemed to do was give people nightmares
15:34 < kanzure> diginet: measurable benefits is an interesting question. people claim they can measure "intelligence" but most people can't even define it.
15:34 < Stee|> the dearth of literature is on healthy young (18-35) adults with no mental issues
15:34 < fenn> F71: weird, what else was in it?
15:35 < diginet> well, what about benefits that didn't have scary side effects
15:35 < Stee|> diginet, plenty
15:35 < F71> Vitamin blend, nothing in too much excess
15:35 < F71> no caffine
15:35 < Stee|> the racetam family is fantastic for people suffering age related issues, stroke victims (iirc), and some other stuff
15:35 < fenn> caffeine doesn't give you nightmares (you can't sleep! hah)
15:35 < Stee|> uhhh, I want to say certain types of memory loss
15:35 < fenn> verbal memory
15:35 < F71> Dan Kaminsky wants more, I gave the first few bottles to him
15:36 < F71> he says it's good with booze
15:36 < Stee|> flavonol has been shown to help verbal memory in a high dose
15:36 < diginet> Well, more specifically, is there anything which has been proven to increase one's maximum intelligence, and not just restore it to what it wa
15:36 < diginet> s
15:36 < Stee|> other flavonoids have helped with similar thing
15:36 < diginet> interesting
15:36 < Stee|> diginet, define maximum intelligence
15:36 < kanzure> diginet: define "intelligence"
15:36 < diginet> well, let's say for something I care about: mathematical reasoning
15:36 < Stee|> concentration, verbal memory, working attention span, working memory (like double n-back), etc.
15:36 < fenn> here's a decent summary of the research on piracetam http://www.smarternootropics.com/table-of-contents/piracetam/
15:36 < Stee|> we can't measure mathematical reasoning
15:36 < fenn> eh? sure we can
15:37 < fenn> they're called "math tests"
15:37 < diginet> ability to do mental math
15:37 < kanzure> fenn: so give a kid a drug, then give him a calculus 4 test. there's no way he would know what the symbols mean.
15:37 < diginet> Leohnard Euler could supposedly calculate to 5-10 decimal places in his head
15:37 < kanzure> diginet: that's more of a training thing
15:37 < Stee|> right, but you need to set up a way to test it
15:37 < diginet> yeah, you're probably right
15:37 < fenn> kanzure: give a kid a drug and a calculus textbook and a calculus test
15:38 < kanzure> the textbook has to provably not suck
15:38 < diginet> heh, that's asking a lot
15:38 < diginet> in my experience
15:38 < diginet> most suck tremendously
15:38 < ParahSailin_> wesnoth is a good test
15:39 < fenn> it's more important to have a test at all than to know what the test is testing for
15:39 < fenn> then at least you can say "there was a change"
15:41 < diginet> these things are just so tricky to test
15:41 < diginet> mostly because the concepts themselves are ill-defined
15:41 < fenn> yep
15:41 < kanzure> yep
15:41 < kanzure> yep
15:42 < fenn> this is why we discourage concepts such as "intelligence" and "consciousness"
15:42 < kanzure> also we usually have a no-philosophy policy but i am violating it because i am awful :(
15:42 < fenn> not only are they undefinable, they're un-measurable
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15:43 < fenn> why has the price of piracetam gone up? it's the same stuff
15:43 < fenn> did everyone just forget how to make it?
15:43 < diginet> well I don't pretend to know what consciousness is,  my ideas is that there is something which differentiates the brain, and a comparable computer. I don't know what it is, but it's not something metaphysical, just some quirk of natural law we don't understand yet
15:43 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: weren't you trying to get the price lower?
15:43 < yashgaroth> the threat of regulation tends to make the price go up
15:44 < F71> I still have a few kilos from my drink experiments, it was 35/ kilo when I got it
15:44 < fenn> it was going up before the fda warning letter
15:44 < diginet> what did the FDA warn?
15:44 < Stee|> fenn: importing it is the same price as before :D
15:44 < fenn> they basically said "stop selling it as a dietary supplement"
15:45 < diginet> ugh dietary supplements
15:46 < fenn> let me guess, you hate vitamins too
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15:46 < Stee|> choline has helped my mom more than anything, the piracetam is just icing on the cake
15:47 < F71> I didn't put choline in the drink I made because there's nothing that fixes the mouthfeel
15:47 < fenn> before you rail about how dietary supplements are unproven etc., you should know that even simple things like vitamin C or E can be detrimental to health in some situations
15:47 < diginet> no I don't hate them per se
15:47 < Stee|> anything is detrimental at a sufficient dose :V
15:47 < diginet> I just think a lot of those "herbal supplement" people are into a lot of alternate medicine woo
15:48 < fenn> Stee|: this is a normal dose, i.e. 500mg ascorbic acid
15:48 < Stee|> diginet: This is true, but that's not how we use the phrase dietary supplement here
15:48 < F71> Ray K eats them by the bowl
15:48 < Stee|> F71: yeah, but he at least talks with experts first
15:48 < fenn> there's more alternative medicine out there than researchers and funding to study it
15:48 < Stee|> such as there are experts
15:49 < Stee|> http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/smart-robotic-sand-0402.html y'all see this?
15:49 < fenn> but ayurveda's been around for thousands of years, in which time they've discovered a thing or two
15:49 < fenn> TCM is kinda quacky
15:50 < fenn> F71: what about other choline precursors like DMAE or centrophenoxine?
15:51 < nmz787> stee| how can sand pass messages?
15:51 < diginet> ayurveda? you mean Indian medicine? Chakras and stuff?
15:51 < diginet> (or is that something else)
15:51 < F71> Electrocoupling?
15:52 < F71> Also, I'm checking to see if DMAE is soluble
15:52 < fenn> chakras is more in the yoga tradition but there's some overlap
15:52 < nmz787> stee| wait it doesn't seem like this article has anything to do with SiO2
15:52 < Stee|> 'sand'
15:52 < yashgaroth> dmae is soluble
15:52 < fenn> so is choline
15:53 < diginet> so, fenn why is that believable but the four humours aren't? they both sound like nonsense to me
15:54 < Stee|> the practice as a whole is nonsense
15:54 < Stee|> there are certain medicines found in it that work (ashwagandha)
15:54 < fenn> because they've developed herbs that can be tested for efficacy
15:54 < nmz787> fenn: the prob with ayurveda is its so large that there are a lot of quacks... mainly because its too complex for laypeople to realize if its truth or not
15:54 < nmz787> fenn: at least thats what my indian gf says of india
15:55 < nmz787> its much like how can you trust a scientist, if you really have no idea about science?
15:55 < fenn> i'm not saying you should run out and eat cinnabar because it's in the ayurvedic tradition
15:56 < fenn> but just because quack X talks about Y and Z doesn't mean that you should throw out Z just because Y does nothing
15:56 < fenn> i trust scientists because on average they're right more than they're wrong
15:57 < juul> Stee|, yeah that's interesting. The whole thesis is here: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/60151
15:58 < kanzure> fenn: you should be using nmz787 to figure out the cutter
15:59 < kanzure> also, diyhpluswiki might be useful for notes on parts/crap
16:01 < juul> kanzure, looks like i'll actually be taking that course Endy is teaching
16:01 < kanzure> show me show me
16:02 < F71> DMAE will go in revision two of the drink
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16:03 < F71> pending It doesn't turn the drink into sludge like choline does
16:03 < F71> or, maybe I can just make it more of a 'smoothie'
16:04 < kanzure> F71: show us your tdcs setup
16:04 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-160-124.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:05 < F71> It's way easy
16:05 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-163-157-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:05 < F71> It's just a little Jfet and a resistor set up as a constant current supply
16:05 < F71> the current scales linearly down with the resistor going up
16:06 < F71> It'll drive to the voltage of the source, which can be any battery since it tends to drive around four volts
16:06 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-160-124.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:06 < F71> *any higher voltage batteryright now, I have a trimmer set up in series with the resistor
16:07 < F71> the trimmer lets me taper on and off
16:07 < F71> and I have an LED set to show conduction
16:08 < F71> I have it set to drive a max of 1 ma, and it scales down below a microamp
16:08 < F71> I'm using big electrodes that I made from shamwow and some copper tape along the back
16:08 < F71> simple weak KCL electrolyte
16:08 < F71> and a big moon-boot rubber band to hold them on
16:09 < F71> They're so broad even a novice to the 10-20 system can hook them up
16:10 < F71> I'm going to try and 3d print some electrode junk holders so it doesn't look like a heap of crap when I'm hooking it up to strangers
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16:14 < F71> JFETs are easy to work with. The whole thing took less than twenty minutes to solder together and test.
16:15 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-i-a-case-of-mistaken-identity chinese medicine is also a lot more respectable than people give it credit for
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16:21 < delinquentme> kewl http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1047510073/remee-the-rem-enhancing-lucid-dreaming-mask
16:23 < n_bentha> eh.
16:23 < kanzure> what is #reboot
16:24 < n_bentha> i wonder if lucid dreaming really means that you come to the realization that 'hey i'm in a dream', or if you just do whatever u want and it's cool and u think it's reality?
16:24 < F71> I watched that show in the 90s
16:25 < n_bentha> i guess it means the former
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16:31 < skorket> some of those kickstarter projects...sheesh
16:32 < F71> Anybody know a good reason why I should lucid dream?
16:32 < F71> It just seems kind of masturbatory to me
16:32 < kanzure> because sleep is boring
16:33 < Replop> and sometimes dreams can be better than porn
16:33 < F71> Sleep is a jump
16:33 < Replop> so yes, masturbatory indeed.
16:34 < Replop> sleep is a necessary downtime for maintenance of your fleshware
16:34 < n_bentha> I dunno guys. I have awesome dreams all the time
16:34 < n_bentha> I do crazy shit, sex flying fighting etc.
16:34 < Replop> at the same time ?
16:34 < kanzure> well aren't you lucky
16:34 < n_bentha> But I usually don't realize I'm in the dream. I think it's real. And then I wake up to my alarm.
16:34 < F71> Wow, you dream of the movie shoot'em up?
16:35 < n_bentha> Lol not that specific movie.
16:36 < F71> It's the only decent movie I know with a fight scene that is also a sex scene
16:39 < F71> well, consensual sex
16:40 < skorket> Interesting, R. Kurzweil is essentially a proponent of intellectual property rights?
16:40 < kanzure> oh very much so
16:40 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
16:41 < skorket> Yeah, I'm reading it now
16:41 < skorket> He definitely misses some things
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16:45 < delinquentme> bc sleep is boring
16:45 < delinquentme> kanz wins
16:46 < n_bentha> yashgaroth: that method didn't work for the transformation...
16:46 < n_bentha> all the plates w/ the cells that i had mixed w/ the dna had nothing
16:47 < n_bentha> and the control plate had lots of bacteria on the lb, and even had cell growing on the kanamycin
16:50 < yashgaroth> :/
16:51 < yashgaroth> control plate being plasmid without insert?
16:52 < n_bentha> i did construct 1, construct 2, original plasmid, and NO dna added.
16:52 < n_bentha> oh there was 1 colony on one of the plates that had the construct that also has rfp added.
16:53 < skorket> From reading the beginning of "The Singularity is Near" he already makes some mistakes as to the nature of computation.  Most of the section about Wolframs cellular automata is mis informed...
16:54 < skorket> Anyway, the main thrust of his argument, the exponential growth, is the big thing to take away...
16:54 < yashgaroth> so you only got colonies with the original plasmid?
16:54 < skorket> Sorry to go on about it but it just dawned on me how right the exponential growth thing is
16:54 < yashgaroth> (and that one rfp colony)
16:54 < n_bentha> no yashgaroth, that plate was empty too
16:55 < yashgaroth> oh dear
16:55 < n_bentha> only 1 rfp colony.
16:55 < n_bentha> but i'm not sure if it wasn't contamination?
16:55 < yashgaroth> well if you have no-dna cells growing on kan, that's a problem right there
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16:56 < yashgaroth> but if you don't get any with the unmodified backbone then that's more worrying
16:59 < n_bentha> i know >.<
16:59 < n_bentha> did the dna kill the cells?
16:59 < n_bentha> i'll try again.
16:59 < n_bentha> oh and the guy didn't purify the dna. it's apparently an excessive step.
16:59 < yashgaroth> fffff
16:59 < kanzure> haha
17:00 < n_bentha> chinese biological techniques =/= german biological techniques
17:00 < kanzure> ok fix the dna then repeat everything
17:00 < n_bentha> purify the plasmid*
17:00 < yashgaroth> strictly speaking you don't need to purify after the ligation, but if it's going this badly then it's worthwhile
17:01 < yashgaroth> at least run some on a gel
17:01 < n_bentha> i didn't have gasoline, so i just used diesel. now idk why my car won't start?!?! must be the car's fault!
17:01 < Replop> before begining on diybio, you guys all had some bio-related degree, I presume ?
17:02 < yashgaroth> I was getting mine when I got into diybio, but yes
17:02 < Replop> I see
17:02 < yashgaroth> surprisingly few people in diybio actually have a bio degree though
17:03 < n_bentha> sadly
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17:03 < kanzure> Replop: nope, i didn't have a biology-related degree
17:04 < yashgaroth> so 90% of the discussion is "hay guyz I wanna make glowing yogurt how do I dna a plasmid into primers???"
17:04 < yashgaroth> yes but at least you make an effort to learn bio kanzure
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17:04 < kanzure> vitalism!
17:05 < n_bentha> hehe. glowing yogurt. so many kids say that even in school
17:05 < n_bentha> z0mG luciferase glows!
17:05 < kanzure> "glow under UV" isn't that cool :\
17:05 < n_bentha> stupid RFP
17:06 < yashgaroth> haha 'instant glowing yogurt, just add luciferin'
17:06 < n_bentha> ke ke ke
17:06 < n_bentha> can we sell that
17:06 < n_bentha> ?
17:06 < yashgaroth> I don't feel like milking fireflies or however it is they get luciferin
17:06 < Replop> would it still be edible ?
17:06 < yashgaroth> if you can eat fireflies
17:06 < kanzure> Replop: they are making fun of you
17:07 < nmz787> fluoro yogurt is def booorrrriiiiinnnnggg
17:07 < F71> Lucifer tandoori
17:07 < nmz787> once you do gfp e coli at least
17:07 < yashgaroth> what no we're not
17:07 < n_bentha> i've done gfp, cfp, yfp, rfp n. bentha
17:08 < Replop> and beyond  diybio, there isn't other communities meeting here , like the makerbot fans ?
17:08 < n_bentha> i've done transgenic xenopus
17:09 < n_bentha> 007 in xeno-pussy!
17:09 < n_bentha> j/k
17:09 < jrayhawk> while there are plenty of 3d printer fans here, they do most of their discussion in #reprap
17:10 < nmz787> transBio?
17:10 < skorket> is it just me or did diybio kind of fall by the way side of late?  It seems like there was a lot of press a couple of years ago, then a bunch of unfulfilled promises then crickets.
17:10 < nmz787> i.e. transforming into a company?
17:10 < yashgaroth> it gets a remarkable amount of press for how little actually happens
17:10 < nmz787> seems like a lot of people that used to be active arent anymore
17:11 < skorket> yeah, what happened with that?
17:11 < nmz787> that may be because people are actually doing stuff now.... or because they got bored
17:11 < kanzure> well
17:11 < yashgaroth> or got jobs
17:11 < kanzure> there's biocurious and genspace
17:11 < kanzure> and then there's all the discussions on the regional lists that they don't ever forward
17:11 < skorket> I mean, I think there's a period where people are hunkering down and actually doing the work, like you and kanzure, but it also seems like there was a lot of excitement and then it just dropped off
17:11 < kanzure> biocurious has a few private lists
17:11 < kanzure> anyway, there's *tons* of biocurious/genspace activity
17:12 < kanzure> but that's not really DIY i guess
17:12 < kanzure> so the way it happened..
17:12 < kanzure> was that back in 2007-2008 there was hplusroadmap
17:12 < n_bentha> :O
17:12 < kanzure> and we started talking about biohacking
17:12 < kanzure> mac cowell turned up and created a diybio group
17:13 < kanzure> he used to be in here as uh cis-action
17:13 < kanzure> the diybio group was always more popular than the hplusroadmap list
17:14 < kanzure> also don't use http://bit.ly/diybionews2 to indicate the level of news activity.. i sorta missed a lot this year heh
17:14 < n_bentha> but only lik 8 ppl are ever in the diybio channel?
17:15 < kanzure> because hplusroadmap is bigger
17:15 < kanzure> n_bentha: the diybio group is 2000 members
17:15 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/about
17:15 < kanzure> aw hell they broke /about ?
17:16 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!members/diybio
17:16 < kanzure> and apparently you can't sort by reverse join date
17:17 < n_bentha> hmm
17:17 < n_bentha> kanzure: has luciferase yogurt been created yet?
17:18 < n_bentha> shouldn't someone have stocks of it somehwere?
17:18 < kanzure> no idea. i think most people are doing fluorescent yogurts.
17:20 < katsmeow-afk> let me ask the obvious question then: does the flourescence or glowing cease as it passes thru you to your personal exit port?
17:20 < kanzure> there are all sorts of chemicals in your body that respond to UV stimulation to some extent
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17:21 < yashgaroth> protein-based fluorescence won't survive the digestive tract, no
17:21 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-160-124.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:21 < katsmeow-afk> i was more thinking of the afterglow, prior to flushing, being somewhat freaky
17:21 < katsmeow-afk> ok
17:24 < n_bentha> lol
17:25 < delinquentme> what are those full body lounge suits that were recent informercials?
17:25 < delinquentme> the brand name of the forever azy
17:25 < delinquentme> forever lazy*
17:26 < n_bentha> snuggies?
17:30 < delinquentme> yeh
17:30 < delinquentme> already got it
17:30 < delinquentme> nmz787, you're from pitt?
17:30 -!- F71 [~Adium@safekick-americas-2.consolidated.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:34 < nmz787> yes
17:34 < nmz787> you?
17:34 < delinquentme> annd what goes in washcloths to make people pass out?
17:34 < delinquentme> pittsburgh
17:34 < delinquentme> haha
17:34 < nmz787> ?
17:34 < nmz787> chloroform?
17:35 < kanzure> yes he's from pittsburgh
17:35 < nmz787> where abouts?
17:35 < nmz787> I'm from northside/southside
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17:49 < delinquentme> nmz787, oakland :D
17:49 < delinquentme> dirty south o
17:49 < delinquentme> like past the blvd
17:52 < delinquentme> i was in southside for a while too ... was @ alphalab nmz787
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18:23 < kanzure> from now on i'm calling BeautifulSoup simply "bsoup"
18:25 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:25 < kanzure> hi azonenberg
18:25 < azonenberg> hi
18:25 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:25 < kanzure> are you doing packaging?
18:26 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:26 < ybit> what are we packaging?
18:27 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:28 < kanzure> ybit: his homecmos work
18:28 < kanzure> er, you package microchips into ICs
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18:38 < delinquentme> beautiful soup eh
18:42 < juul> home cmos? that sounds fun!
18:42 < kanzure> juul: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/
18:44 < n_bentha> mmm soup
18:44 < n_bentha> has anyone put the enzymes to make l-theanine into yogurt?
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18:48 < juul> cool
18:48 < nmz787> delinquentme alphalab?
18:49 < delinquentme> ya
18:49 < delinquentme> accelerator
18:50 < delinquentme> http://www.alphalab.org/
18:52 < nmz787> oO
18:52 < nmz787> that looks pretty cool
18:58 < _Sketch_> HomeCMOS, hmmm.
19:00 < delinquentme> nmz787, its alright
19:00 < juul> what about that lady who called herself chipgirl (i think)
19:00 < juul> she was restoring old electron microscopes and making her own transistors from scratch
19:00 < juul> can't seem to find her online though
19:01 < delinquentme> i was in a different company
19:01 < delinquentme> chip girl huh
19:01 < kanzure> juul: jerri ellsworth?
19:02 < juul> quite possibly :)
19:02 < juul> thanks
19:02 < katsmeow-afk> she made the transistors too?
19:03 < juul> if she's who i'm thinking of then she made a few transistors from scratch
19:03 < juul> that's a long time ago though
19:03 < delinquentme> what about the open source electron microscope
19:03 < delinquentme> PS
19:04 < delinquentme> what did halcyon do with their microscopes??
19:04 < ParahSailin_> heh halcyon
19:05 < delinquentme> lol buncha haters !!!!!!!!!
19:12  * katsmeow-afk cannot find 100mg spoons, and is pondering drilling a divot into an old toothbrush handle to be one
19:16 < n_bentha> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jsfa.4373/full
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19:16 < n_bentha> :D :D :D
19:16 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:19 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, 100mg spoons?
19:29 < juul> n_bentha, interesting
19:36 < ybit> http://www.z88.org/ :: more FEA software
19:38 < kanzure> "Import of COSMOS und NASTRAN files from Pro/ENGINEER (Option Pro/MECHANICA) is supported"
19:38 < kanzure> sounds unlikely.
19:41 < delinquentme> ProE is huge... how do you even begin to support that
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20:27 < delinquentme> updates to google http://insidesearch.blogspot.com/2012/04/search-quality-highlights-50-changes.html
20:32 < nmz787> kanzure: what do you think about alphalabs?
20:33 < delinquentme> what is "devOps"
20:33 < delinquentme> lol no nmz787 dont come here
20:33 < delinquentme> san fran
20:33 < nmz787> i'm /from/ there
20:33 < delinquentme> you're out there already
20:33 < nmz787> nah
20:33 < delinquentme> no?
20:33 < nmz787> i'm upstat NY
20:33 < delinquentme> didnt i see LBL?
20:33 < nmz787> yea
20:33 < nmz787> there remotely
20:33 < delinquentme> oh past experience
20:33 < delinquentme> oh damn
20:33 < delinquentme> helly jelly
20:34 < kanzure> nmz787: there's tons of incubators out there
20:34 < nmz787> where?
20:34 < nmz787> out?
20:34 < kanzure> but it's still hella hard to get anyone to accept an open source hardware company
20:34 < nmz787> yeha
20:34 < nmz787> yeah
20:34 < nmz787> dont tell them its OSH
20:34 < kanzure> nmz787: for instance.. techstars is a popular yc alternative
20:34 < nmz787> lol
20:35 < delinquentme> cash is king
20:35 < delinquentme> make shit
20:35 < delinquentme> bring in money
20:35 < delinquentme> viola
20:35 < delinquentme> should I call up mr gene tomorrow
20:35 < nmz787> y?
20:35 < delinquentme> and tell them ill give them a deal if they front us $40
20:35 < delinquentme> "pre order"
20:35 < kanzure> mrgene was acquired
20:36 < delinquentme> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA
20:36 < delinquentme> kanz.
20:36 < delinquentme> kanz
20:36 < delinquentme> kanz
20:36 < delinquentme> you've just done an evil thing http://deathbycaptcha.com/
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20:36 < delinquentme> that.
20:36 < delinquentme> is awesome
20:36 < kanzure> i use them all the time
20:37 < kanzure> i hate captchas
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20:41 < delinquentme> thats so much good
20:41 < delinquentme> totally a mechanical turk implementation
20:41 < delinquentme> wish i would have thought of it
20:41 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:44 < kanzure> delinquentme: there's other sites that do the same thing.. but after trying the others, i ended up staying with that
21:01 < delinquentme> http://www.agilediagnosis.com/images/product/index--example_ddx.png
21:04 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:04 < Stee|> nmz787, what part of upstate
21:04 < Stee|> oh, RIT
21:10 -!- Cheshire_Cat is now known as SDr
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22:16 < kanzure> wb yashgaroth
22:17 < yashgaroth> ya whatup
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22:44 < kanzure> how much energy would it take to use a laser to sequence nucleotides in another galaxy?
22:44 < kanzure> assume said nucleotides are in a nebula?
22:49 < yashgaroth> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:50 < yashgaroth> infinite energy, approximately
22:50 < kanzure> i don't think so
22:50 < kanzure> i did the math once on an intergalactic laser cutter
22:50 < yashgaroth> this is why I wished I learned math
22:50 < kanzure> for instance, using a laser to heat/cool distant planets for chemistry
22:51 < yashgaroth> I always imagined the intermediate stage for an intergalactic civilization was shooting a comms laser to every visible star
22:51 < yashgaroth> but not for chemistry purposes
22:52 < kanzure> well, since light is the fastest means of travel you might as well just shoot lasers to construct yourself at the other end
22:52 < kanzure> for instance.. with chemistry
22:52 < yashgaroth> oh no 30 seconds in and we're back to whether a copy of oneself is an equivalent consciousness
22:53 < kanzure> huh? i don't think so
22:53 < yashgaroth> oh good
22:53 < kanzure> i don't understand how you got there
22:53 < yashgaroth> because that whole argument always got to me
22:53 < yashgaroth> I mean taking a mind copy and creating it somewhere else
22:54 < yashgaroth> and considering that construct as oneself
22:54 < yashgaroth> plus, lasers
22:54 < kanzure> yeah but i don't see how you got to me claiming anything about selfhood from lasers
22:55 < yashgaroth> "construct yourself at the other end"
22:56 < kanzure> *construct your cargo
22:56 < yashgaroth> ahhh okay
22:58 < yashgaroth> check back in 10 years when the LHC pays off
22:59 < nmz787> you've all seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-SSu3tJ3ns
22:59 < nmz787> and the gimp plugin http://liquidrescale.wikidot.com/en:download-page-sources
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23:34 < nmz787> no one awake?
23:34 < kanzure> not really
23:34  * kanzure sleeps
23:34 < nmz787> well GFP yogurt or whatever you want is very close/easy
23:34 < nmz787> http://www.scribd.com/doc/87924827/Appl-Environ-Microbiol-2011-Douglas-7365-71
23:34 < katsmeow-afk> nope
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23:36 < nmz787> guten nacth
23:37 < katsmeow-afk> gnite
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23:41 < kanzure> neat.. auto sql injections http://sqlmap.sourceforge.net/
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23:43 < yashgaroth> forgive my limited programming knowledge, but are sql injection exploits basically just entering "))) give.admin.to(userX)" and hoping the input gets read as source code?
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23:44 < ThomasEgi> https://xkcd.com/327/
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23:44 < yashgaroth> yeah basically
23:44 < nmz787> kanzure: that does look pretty coole
23:45 < kanzure> yashgaroth: yes
23:45 < yashgaroth> okay just checking
23:46 < kanzure> yashgaroth: it's more like using '"` and then checking if this causes the page to throw some errors
23:46 < kanzure> or looking for local file inclusion bugs or remote file inclusion vulnerabilities, etc. etc..
23:48 < yashgaroth> I do sometimes which I got into programming, as unlike DNA you don't need to pay per character entered
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23:58 < yashgaroth> err wish*
--- Log closed Wed Apr 04 00:00:01 2012