--- Log opened Thu Apr 05 00:00:22 2012 00:09 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:12 < kanzure> hmm maybe i can convince fenn and nmz787 to move to detroit 00:12 < kanzure> 10k sqft for $1k/mo and all the industrial equipment you can dream of 00:14 < yashgaroth> plus, robocop 00:16 < delinquentme> who / what is there 00:16 < kanzure> delinquentme: cheap stuff 00:16 < yashgaroth> robocop 00:17 < skorket> kanzure, if you wanted to get a diy bio thing going in detroit, I might even be convinced 00:17 < kanzure> skorket: are you in the area? you should meet tim schmidt 00:17 < skorket> ah, sadly, I'm in upstate NY (Ithaca) but thinking of moving 00:17 < skorket> Boston is top of my list 00:17 < delinquentme> night time 00:18 < delinquentme> oodulstay 00:20 < kanzure> http://www.cityfeet.com/cont/michigan-industrial-space 00:21 < kanzure> http://www.cityfeet.com/Commercial/ForLease/1215-Lipsey-Drive-Charlotte-MI-48813-17487695L17487695L1.aspx 00:21 < kanzure> 30k sq ft for $1750/mo? 00:21 < skorket> kanzure, for that type of money you could buy a whole block in some neighborhoods 00:23 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23 < kanzure> so $600/mo for 10k sq ft on that last one 00:23 < skorket> http://www.cityfeet.com/Commercial/ForSale/4940-DELEMERE-AVE-ROYAL-OAK-MI-48073-2419396.aspx 00:24 < skorket> http://www.cityfeet.com/Commercial/ForSale/21500-24-Mile-Macomb-MI-48042-2371006.aspx 00:24 < skorket> and on and on 00:25 < skorket> I mean, you could almost just squat on some the real estate. Detroit is pretty deserted 00:29 < kanzure> i'm tempted to just rent out 20k sqft and just chill out in the middle while i write my code 00:45 < jrayhawk> If you're dissatisfied with PSU's network, your other vserver actually has fairly diverse and stable peering 00:45 < kanzure> i'm more curious about fenn's odd git issue 00:47 < jrayhawk> git:// as a protocol doesn't support authentication 00:48 < kanzure> welp. okay. 00:49 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:49 < jrayhawk> [url "jrayhawk@piny.be:/srv/git/"] 00:49 < jrayhawk> pushInsteadOf = git://piny.be/ 00:50 < jrayhawk> err, [url "jrayhawk@piny.be:/srv/git/"] pushInsteadOf = git://piny.be/ 00:50 < jrayhawk> huh, man, rxvt does not want to copy that properly 00:50 < jrayhawk> [url "gnusha.org:/srv/git/"] pushInsteadOf = git://gnusha.org/ 00:51 < jrayhawk> beh, fuck it, you get the idea 00:51 < jrayhawk> that should go into ~/.gitconfig or git config --global 00:51 < kanzure> jrayhawk: would you settle for less than a missile silo if it means 30k sqft 00:52 < jrayhawk> is there an underground portion 00:52 < kanzure> detroit usually includes basements yes 00:53 < jrayhawk> when i think detroit, i think civil unrest, class warfare, and fires 00:53 < jrayhawk> sounds like fun to me 00:53 < kanzure> so.. right up your alley? 00:53 < kanzure> yep ok 00:54 < jrayhawk> re: projects/laser_etcher: Ikiwiki, unfortunately, does not have a general purpose file editor. 00:54 < kanzure> giant textbox? 00:54 < jrayhawk> Somebody might've made one of those by now and I guess I could support that, too. 00:55 < kanzure> eh. 00:55 < jrayhawk> if you were to rename that to projects/laser_etcher.mdwn you could edit it fine, or if one of us were to enable the 'txt' plugin and rename it to projects/laser_etcher.txt then that would also work 00:56 < jrayhawk> although it would get rendered as a giant block of
 text inside the page template
00:56 < kanzure> did we disable anonymous editing for a reason?
00:57 < jrayhawk> "anonymous" has never been a usecase I've wanted to support since I hate turing tests; anonymous user registration and world write access is supported, though.
00:58 < jrayhawk> And there's an 'export this repo as writable through git-daemon' git config that you could use; I haven't seen if spammers hit git:// at all.
00:59 < kanzure> okay.
01:00 < jrayhawk> Joey Hess made some impressive pre-receive hook that checks to see if a given ref update would involve objects outside of allowed directories that makes that slightly safer
01:01 < jrayhawk> so, for instance, git://git.ikiwiki.info/ allows you to write commits against everything in doc/
01:01 < jrayhawk> (and you're encouraged to mess about in doc/sandbox/ if you want to enjoy the novelty of that)
01:01 < kanzure> "allowed directories" sounds like a hack on top of the already brittle permissions system
01:07 < jrayhawk> eh
01:09 < jrayhawk> anonymous user registration with optional moderator approval is supported, even
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01:12 < jrayhawk> re: real estate: i would suggest getting something with FTTP pre-installed since that can get pricy
01:13 < kanzure> "buy now and get your very own homeless man!"
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01:51 < kanzure> http://biocurioussafety.pbworks.com/w/page/51594301/General%20Lab%20Policies
01:54 < yashgaroth> looks standard
01:54 < kanzure> probably
01:54 < kanzure> just odd that they don't link to any of that from their site
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01:55 < yashgaroth> wait you have to put your phone number on everything? seems silly
01:56 < kanzure> oh i guess they link to http://biocuriousmembers.pbworks.com/w/page/46478291/FrontPage
01:56 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/group/biocurious-printer-hacking
01:56 < kanzure> "Participants: Patrik D'haeseleer, Aaron Vollrath, Raghuvir Sengupta, Gregory Costanza, Ari, Serban Ciotlos, Jessabella, Coila, Gerald Witters, Eri Gentry, Kevin Bjorke, Michael Scroggins, Vineeth, Jing Luo, Cameron Clarke, Jonathan Reyles (+non-locals: Bryan Bishop, Lee Nelson, Elizabeth Amaral)"
01:56 < kanzure> so nice of them to include me?
01:57 < kanzure> http://biocuriousmembers.pbworks.com/w/page/50477380/Reagent%20Store
01:57  * kanzure sleeps
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05:47 < diginet> so, sorry for the potentially stupid question, but what is the best non-shutgown method for isolating a selection of DNA (around 10 to 12 kbases) to sequence?
05:48 < diginet> *shotgun
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06:08 < diginet>  I mean, I know about restriction enzymes, but I would think using those without first isolating the area of interest would prove difficult.  Are there REs for sequences that only occur at promoters/terminators for genes?
06:19 < audy> diginet only by chance
06:21 < diginet> how is this usually done? I mean, do I have to sequence the entire genome just to get this one gene? Surely that isn't the norm
06:34 < gedankenstuecke> you can do 12 kb by sanger-sequencing with overlapping primer pairs. this is still done for some mitochondrial genomes. but this will only work if you know at least parts of the sequence
06:41 < diginet> Yeah I do know some parts of it, it's just that's there's no reliable full sequence of the gene in question
06:43 < gedankenstuecke> in this case you can start with the known-reliable parts and sequence the missing parts with sanger from there on. sanger allows for ~1kb of sequence per primer, so 12 primer (pairs if you want to sequence in both directions) should be enough
06:55 < audy> diginet what gedankenstuecke said
06:55 < audy> 1.) get a piece of the gene, 2.) PCR amplify, 3.) sanger sequencing
06:55 < audy> it can be done on the real cheap
06:55 < audy> I think sanger sequencing is ~$20 amiright, gedankenstuecke ?
06:56 < diginet> how long does the piece of the gene need to be?
06:59 < gedankenstuecke> audy: i have to admit i'm not sure, a single sequencing reaction will cost about ~$1 if you do the PCR yourself
06:59 < audy> diginet what do you want to do with said gene?
07:00 < audy> diginet oh, to design primers
07:00 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: well your primer should be between 16-25 bp long and you should keep 50-100 bp of overlap with already known sequence-parts
07:00 < diginet> well, I want to sequence the gene just to study, since as mentioned a full sequence hasn't been done yet
07:00 < gedankenstuecke> so start looking for primers at ~100bp off the end of the known-sequence parts
07:00 < diginet> right right
07:01 < diginet> but, where do I get the primers from?
07:01 < gedankenstuecke> this should still give you up to 1kb of new sequence
07:01 < diginet> the problem is the gene in question is highly repetitive
07:01 < gedankenstuecke> this probably depends on where you are located but generally you can just order them online. ;)
07:02 < gedankenstuecke> okay, this will be a problem
07:02 < gedankenstuecke> because you can't design primers in those regions
07:02 < diginet> well, that would mean there are 4^25 possible combinations, do they sell every which possible one?
07:02 < diginet> yeah, which is probably why it hasn't been sequenced
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07:03 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: they will get synthesized for you
07:03 < diginet> oh right, isn't the going rate like $1 per bp or so?
07:03 < gedankenstuecke> you tell them which sequence you want and they synthesize it and ~3 days later you should have them in mail
07:04 < diginet> cool
07:04 < audy> can you just order primers?
07:04 < audy> do they ask questions?
07:05 < diginet> so, is there any research in the way of reliable DIY sequencing of repetive DNA?
07:05 < gedankenstuecke> this was the first hit for primer design with google: https://eu.idtdna.com
07:06 < gedankenstuecke> 21 bp for 5.25€
07:08 < diginet> oh, wiw
07:08 < diginet> *wow
07:08 < diginet> good deal
07:08 < gedankenstuecke> audy: i know there are companies which deliver to non-institutional addresses with no-questions asked, but i'd guess the DIYBio-google-group can give suggestions which companies are good
07:09 < audy> diginet how repetitive is it? how long is the gene?
07:09 < gedankenstuecke> probably you can find cheaper companies or get some discount if you order lots of primers
07:09 < diginet> 10k to 12k dp, and pretty darn repetivie
07:09 < gedankenstuecke> do you ~ know how long the repeats are?
07:09 < audy> diginet you'll need to do multiple sanger runs then
07:10 < audy> diginet the repetitiveness won't be a huge problem if you use sanger
07:10 < gedankenstuecke> audy: it will
07:10 < diginet> let me look at the papers I have on it
07:10 < gedankenstuecke> it the repeats are too long you wont know how to stitch back the sanger fragments
07:10 < diginet> the repeats I think are like 3-10 bp
07:11 < diginet> brb, let me go look it up
07:11 < audy> gedankenstuecke but sanger reads are long. If you have some polymorphism in the repeat region it won't be so bad
07:11 < gedankenstuecke> audy: right, this is why I asked on how long the repeats are in total :)
07:11 < gedankenstuecke> if its < 1kb you should be fine, above you can't do it with standard sanger
07:12 < diginet> MaSp1 and MaSp2 are large proteins of about 250 to 350 kDa that share a general domain
07:12 < diginet> architecture (Sponner et al., 2005a; Ayoub et al., 2007). Both proteins contain a large,
07:12 < diginet> central, repetitive domain that consists of approximately 100 tandem copies of a 30 to 40
07:12 < diginet> amino acid repeat sequence. The consensus repeat sequences for both MaSp1 and MaSp2
07:12 < diginet> are glycine-rich and end in poly-alanine motifs (usually four to seven residues long). For
07:12 < diginet> MaSp1, the consensus repeat includes (GGX)n motifs (where X = A, L, Q, or Y) and very
07:12 < diginet> low proline content. In contrast, the MaSp2 consensus repeat has significant proline content
07:12 < diginet> and characteristic motifs such as GPG and QQ (Gatesy et al., 2001). The repetitive domains
07:12 < diginet> of different spidroins display a relatively high level of amino acid sequence variation that has been implicated in providing the elasticity and toughness that is characteristic of the
07:12 < diginet> different fibers (Hayashi & Lewis, 1998; Hayashi et al., 1999; Rising et al., 2005)."
07:12 < diginet> woops, that was weird, sorry for the bizarre formatting
07:13 < diginet> and I don't know where I got 3-10bp from
07:13 < diginet> since that's way wrong, must've been confusing that with codon repeats
07:14 < gedankenstuecke> ok, no way to solve this with sanger i'd say. the "central" repeat should measure around 9kb?
07:14 < gedankenstuecke> ~100 repeats of 30aa length = 100 repeats of 90bp length
07:15 < diginet> there is good news at least
07:15 < diginet> apparently both ends are flanked by non-repeating sequences which have been sequenced
07:16 < diginet> so I guess see if there is a restriction enzyme which would cut at those points
07:17 < kanzure> ... or you just get primers for those two
07:18 < gedankenstuecke> which wouldn't be of any help if you want to get the sequence of the repeating region
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07:21 < diginet> well, what process does one use for situations such as these?
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07:23 < kanzure> gedankenstuecke: you would PCR out the gene in question, and then use some non-sanger sequencing method
07:23 < kanzure> diginet: pyrosequencing?
07:24 < gedankenstuecke> kanzure: how would that be of any help? you still can't assembly the fragments
07:24 < gedankenstuecke> well, you can, but you can assemble the fragments as long/short you like :D
07:25 < kanzure> gedankenstuecke: you could assemble the fragments and then do dna hybridization to test which version is right
07:25 < kanzure> also.. maybe it would be better to do mRNA sequencing or somethingw
07:26 < gedankenstuecke> apparently the repeats are even in the protein, so this might not be of any help, but hybridisation should work
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07:26 < diginet> well, one thing I'm semi-concerned with: is it worth trying to sequence the introns as well?
07:26 < diginet> (with the eventual goal of transfection in another cell)
07:27 < _F7_> there shouldn't be introns in the mRNA
07:27 < gedankenstuecke> but in this case they already have an idea of how long the result is, so you'd need to synth. ~9kb of repeats. which you can do, but you won't learn anything interesting out of it i guess
07:27 < _F7_> I don't see any utility to sequencing them
07:28 < kanzure> stop giving me hard problems!
07:28 < diginet> yeah, you're probably right.  you don't think the lacking of them could potentially negatively influence expression rates?
07:28 < kanzure> hm.
07:30 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: from which organism to which do you transfect?
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07:33 < diginet> Nephilia Clavipes, MaSp1 (spider silk gene, one of two)
07:33 < diginet> also, sorry in advance for spamming this channel with my inane questions :(
07:35 < gedankenstuecke> and you want to bring it into e coli i guess?
07:35 < gedankenstuecke> or some other bacteria
07:37 < _Sketch_> Wow. I don't think there's any way I can keep up with the backscroll on this channel.
07:37 < Mariu> :p
07:37  * _Sketch_ shakes his fist. Quit making so much stuff, you hooligans. ;)
07:38 < kanzure> diginet: but really. make sure you know about dna hybridization and why it might be helpful to you.
07:38 < diginet> not E. Coli won't work, it won't accomodate the entire gene without truncation (according to several papers I've read)
07:39 < diginet> kanzure, thanks, I'm vaguely aware of what it is, but I'll make sure and read up on it more
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07:39 < kanzure> yo gene_hacker_
07:39 < diginet> thanks so much for putting up with my ignorance guys, I really appreciate it :)
07:39 < diginet> this channel is really cool
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07:40 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: okay, anyway you should try it without the introns (but just my best guess, my microbiology-education lies back a couple of years)
07:40 < diginet> gedankenstuecke, well I know for prokaryotic cells, but what about eukaryotic?
07:41 < diginet> it sure would be EASIER to do so without introns :P
07:41 < diginet> oddly enough, some spider silk genes (not the one in Nephila though) have no introns, which is bizarre considering how long they are
07:41 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: in this case your best guess is as good as mine :P
07:41 < diginet> gedankenstuecke, I guess I could just try it would it first, see what happens
07:42 < diginet> s/with out/would out/p
07:42 < kanzure> maybe someone is already offering nanopore sequencing and you can just go be lazy and take advantage of their longer read lengths
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07:42 < kanzure> hello DrOctothorpe
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07:43 < _F7_> I know octothorpe, he's my roomate
07:44 < kanzure> sounds dangerous
07:44 < diginet> how feasible is mRNA sequencing for DIYers?
07:45 < kanzure> it's something that will have to be debugged pretty strongly..
07:45 < kanzure> i mean.. it's not a PCR reaction.
07:46 < _F7_> reverse transcribe?
07:47 < _F7_> After reverse transcription, it's a PCR reaction
07:48 < kanzure> _F7_: the actual problem he's having is that he has repeats in the gene and doesn't want to do sanger only to have an unassemblable mess
07:49 < _F7_> Primer walk?
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07:53 < gedankenstuecke> _F7_: the repeat is 9kb long
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07:59 < _F7_> Oh, Something that should be of interest to those integrating computers with their everyday carry
07:59 < _F7_> http://tideals.com/
08:00 < _F7_> I got one a few days ago and they, surprisingly, haven't sold out
08:02 < _F7_> It's a microcontroller watch with onboard radios
08:02 < _F7_> You can pair it with anything using a cheap radio like a cc430 or 1111
08:04 < _F7_> It comes with a 1111 and a USB debugger/programmer that'll work for the whole 430 line
08:04 < _F7_> basically, giant nerd watch
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08:30 < diginet> hmm, here's an idea: apparently, the corresponding gene for the black widow has already been completely sequenced
08:31 < diginet> I should just go with that
08:31 < diginet> let's look up to see how its properties compare with n clavipes
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08:46 < _F7_> I've got a buddy with a severed nerve from a botched surgery. This spider silk can relink?
08:49 < diginet> It is possible
08:49 < diginet> If it could help someone, that's even more motivation to go through with this :)
08:52 < kanzure> http://blog.wolfram.com/2012/04/05/analyzing-your-email-with-mathematica/
08:52 < kanzure> updated with responses.. http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2012/03/the-personal-analytics-of-my-life/
08:56 < diginet> to be fair, Stephen Wolfram is kind of a crank
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08:57 < kanzure> diginet: i guess you haven't seen fenn's lifelog or my meetlog
09:02 < _F7_> Are you doing that thing yet where you write to tags?
09:03 < _F7_> I'd actually like to see one of those, if and when.
09:03 < Mokbortolan_> So, the guy who created the best hack for the BodyBugg says that logging the serial data going to it is a DMCA violation
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09:04 < Mokbortolan_> that doesn't make any sense to me
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09:07 < fenn> "software designed to circumvent encryption" is banned in the dmca
09:07 < kanzure> is my brain a dmca violation?
09:08 < diginet> the DMCA is insane
09:08 < fenn> if you can do rot-13 in your head, yes
09:08 < Mokbortolan_> fenn: there isn't any encryption used with this version of the bodybugg
09:08 < Mokbortolan_> at least, none that I need to crack
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09:09 < Mokbortolan_> there might be some native encryption in use with the bluetooth communications, but it'd be part of the session layer, not explicitly defined by the app itself
09:09 < fenn> um, what does the bodybugg actually do? "calorie expenditure" means nothing
09:09 < Mokbortolan_> it's a data recorder
09:09 < Mokbortolan_> basically
09:09 < fenn> but what data
09:09 < Mokbortolan_> galvanic skin response, air temp, body temp, and motion
09:10 < Mokbortolan_> the device itself contains some patented algorithms to translate that into calorie expenditure
09:10 < fenn> woo woo
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09:11 < kanzure> nmz787: yo
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09:13 < Mokbortolan_> can you copyright a protocol?
09:14 < kanzure> you can copyright the expression of anything
09:14 < kanzure> you can also apparently patent certain protocols -_-
09:14 < diginet> Oh I can top that
09:15 < diginet> there was a guy who "wrote" music which transcribed the digits of Pi to music, and he tried to copyright that
09:15 < diginet> HOW DOES ONE COPYRIGHT PI!?!?!
09:15 < diginet> the stupid
09:15 < diginet> it hurts
09:15 < kanzure> or...
09:15 < kanzure> copyright is stupid
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09:15 < kanzure> within the existing paradigm and legal system that makes good sense
09:16 < diginet> eeh I don't think it necessarily is, but the way it is right now sucks
09:16 < diginet> I think that protecting who can profit off of something is worthwhile, to an extent, but not the copying off it
09:16 < ThomasEgi> copyright law atm is more like... anti-copyright
09:16 < diginet> like, if I write a song, and people shared it fine, but I don't want people making money off of my work
09:17 < diginet> (thus creative commons, etc_
09:17 < kanzure> creative commons is not about stopping people from profiting from your work
09:17 < kanzure> the NC variant is deeply regretted
09:20 < diginet> oh I didn't even know that
09:20  * diginet pulls foot out of mouth
09:24 < kanzure> "nc licenses considered harmful" http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/9/11/16331/0655
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09:38 < Mokbortolan_> This section might cover me: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/1201.html#f
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09:53 < _F7_> Where do I go to peer around journal paywalls? I've got a big 'to read' list and my local library isn't very well connected.
09:53 < kanzure> search for ezproxy usernames/passwords
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10:13 < fenn> hmm dotsies is cool, not sure if their character mapping is optimal though
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10:13 < delinquentme> hurro luvlies
10:13 < fenn> also, english spelling is horrid
10:13 < fenn> much better to use a phonetic alphabet
10:15 < uniqanomaly> delinquentme: funny how west is creating legislation for everything and when time comes they are so fucking outraged it's china whos hacking them
10:15 < delinquentme> fonetik
10:15 < delinquentme> check
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10:16 < delinquentme> china hacking hoo?
10:16 < uniqanomaly> us/europe corps govs etc
10:16 < uniqanomaly> legislation is only making western citizens disadvantaged
10:17 < uniqanomaly> same is true with stem cells research
10:17 < uniqanomaly> retards
10:18 < kanzure> CIRM seems to be doing pretty good stem cell work
10:18 < kanzure> don't know what you're complaining about
10:19 < uniqanomaly> dunno, haven't bush slowed things down?
10:19 < kanzure> CIRM has a billion dollar budget for stem cell research
10:19 < katsmeow-afk> in many African countries, bribes are the same as pre-tipping a waiter in a resturant, and usa made bribes illegal, so China swooped in and made the bribes, scooping up mineral and oil rights
10:19 < uniqanomaly> embrional stem sell *
10:19 < kanzure> oops. 3 billion.
10:20 < fenn> implicitCAD also very nice
10:20 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Institute_for_Regenerative_Medicine
10:20 < kanzure> "he California Institute for Regenerative Medicine (CIRM) was created by California's Proposition 71 (2004), which authorized it to issue $3 billion in grants, funded by bonds, over ten years for embryonic stem cell and other biomedical research."
10:21 < uniqanomaly> ok
10:23 < Mokbortolan_> looks like they're well on the way to massive improvements in mouse health
10:23 < delinquentme> pre tipping a waiter ?
10:23 < delinquentme> is that typical in china?
10:23 < katsmeow-afk> i said Africa
10:23 < delinquentme> Ahhhh
10:24 < katsmeow-afk> and i said "like"
10:24 < delinquentme> who in here has access to the laser cutter w 1 hour print time a month?
10:24 < delinquentme> ThomasEgi, ? was that you
10:24 < katsmeow-afk> or "the same as"
10:25 < ThomasEgi> uh.. i dont have a lasercutter.
10:25 < uniqanomaly> katsmeow-afk: usa gov/corporations cant bribe in Africa?
10:25 < ThomasEgi> wish i had one
10:25 < katsmeow-afk> but yeas, in some places in the usa, you might pre-tip the guy parking your car when you hand him the keys
10:25 < kanzure> fenn: what's up?
10:25 < katsmeow-afk> uniqanomaly, correct, notl egally
10:25 < uniqanomaly>  legislation is only making western citizens disadvantaged
10:26 < katsmeow-afk> and i agreed, and gave example
10:26 < uniqanomaly> yeah ok
10:26 < katsmeow-afk> "when in Rome, do as theRomans do"
10:27 < katsmeow-afk> damn, my english teacher was right, there would be a day i'd need to know that phrase, 45 yrs after i heard it
10:28 < uniqanomaly> making own citizens disadvantaged in name of what, ideas?
10:28 < kanzure> this conversation is lame and boring
10:28 < uniqanomaly> natural selection will take care of it in future
10:29 < kanzure> i already showed you CIRM
10:29 < uniqanomaly> ok, nothing left to say
10:29 < kanzure> which pretty much invalidates your point about stem cell research not being funded?
10:30 < uniqanomaly> yes I believe youre right
10:33 < diginet> Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, the entire sequence MaSp1 gene of L. Hesperus (Black Widow) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/ef595246
10:34 < diginet> I don't know exactly how it compares to that of Clavipes, but according to the article detailing the sequencing, it is comparable
10:34 < diginet> My goal is C. darwini anyway, so this is a nice stepping stone
10:34 < katsmeow-afk> as ape dna is comparable to humans?
10:35 < diginet> Well, I'm sure it's similar, but I was more refering to the physical properties
10:35 < diginet> of the silk
10:35 < diginet> I was saying I don't know its weaker than that of N. clavipes
10:35  * katsmeow-afk nods
10:35 < kanzure> diginet: if you promise to start farming spiders then i promise to call you spiderman in here
10:35 < diginet> hahaha YES
10:36 < diginet> well, I wasn't going to farm spiders sadly, especially not black widows, but this does make the whole inserting the gene into an SF9 cell a lot of realistic
10:36 < fenn> finishing installing security cameras today
10:36 < katsmeow-afk> drat
10:36 < diginet> *a lot more
10:37 < diginet> afaik, no one has produced silk proteins from a complete gene-sequence, thus far all have used partial sequences that are missing the C-terminals, which are crucial to the properties of the silk
10:37 < fenn> so all this drop manipulation is nice, but how do we actually get ~15k unique oligos INTO the chip in the first place?
10:38 < fenn> if we make them on chip might as well just make 60-mers instead
10:38 < kanzure> transfer droplets into the chip before shipping it out to a person
10:39 < fenn> (of course droplet manipulation is good for assembly reactions, so there is value there in any case)
10:39 < fenn> how do you transfer droplet to chip
10:39 < fenn> without contamination
10:39 < diginet> be awesome
10:39 < kanzure> doesn't matter because you just form a droplet on-chip
10:39 < kanzure> dump liquid into a droplet-forming channel
10:40 < fenn> then you need 15k channels
10:40 < kanzure> uh why
10:40 < fenn> so you dont get sidewall contamination
10:40 < diginet> kanzure, this microfluidics might come in handy for another project I just remembered is in hte back of my mind
10:40 < kanzure> i thought sidewall contamination isn't a thing here?
10:40 < kanzure> and even if it is.. just wash the channel
10:40 < diginet> *microfluidics research
10:40 < fenn> for synthesis? yeah it is
10:40 < fenn> errors multiply in synthesis
10:41 < kanzure> no we're talking about loading 15,000 oligos into the storage unit
10:41 < diginet> pigment based displays! use solutions of actual pigments, would result in a display with much more vibrant and realistic colors
10:41 < kanzure> also, i meant "side wall contamination isn't an issue here because of the no-slip boundary condition"
10:41 < delinquentme> kanzure, has anyone hacker blood glucose meters to provide more complex profiling?
10:41 < kanzure> all of the microfluidics protocols call for wash steps of channels anyway. so that's standard.
10:41 < delinquentme> hacked**
10:41 < fenn> oh, so you make the droplet off chip and then load it through a tube
10:42 < kanzure> fenn: or you make the droplet on chip
10:42 < kanzure> (a special set of channels just for "initial loading")
10:42 < kanzure> everything that doesn't become the droplet goes to waste
10:42 < _F7_> all 6mers is 4096 oligos, where is 15K coming from?
10:42 < kanzure> _F7_: *shrug* just thinking big
10:43 < kanzure> also it would be nice to have a few thousand drops to store whatever genes you are playing with
10:43 < fenn> eh, 4^7 is 16384
10:43 < fenn> also backups are nice
10:43 < fenn> in case you suspect a droplet of contamination, or you lost it or something
10:43 < kanzure> "crap i contaminated my library, guess i have to reload everything" => sucks
10:43 < kanzure> or "crap i contaminated my library.. time to buy a new chip"
10:44 < kanzure> i don't even know if a library would survive in-tact through the mail. sounds like an experiment worth doing..
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10:45 < kanzure> fenn: droplet generation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzTOoyvGF5Q
10:45 < diginet> does anyone know of any useful open source genetics software?
10:45 < kanzure> diginet: it depends on what you are wanting to do
10:46 < diginet> hmm
10:46 < diginet> codon optimization?
10:46 < kanzure> do you know what the metabolism is like of your target speies? otherwise it's hard to decide what "optimized" means
10:46 < kanzure> *species
10:46 < diginet> sf9 cells
10:47 < diginet> I know that you have to know the target
10:47 < kanzure> that's what you mean by codon optimization, right? making sure the nucleotides are more in a ration suited to the organism's production/diet
10:47 < diginet> the whole point is to replace codons with synonyms that are expressed more readily by the target
10:47 < kanzure> yes ok
10:47 < _F7_> *Crap I contaminated my library, time to mail my chip back for reloading
10:47 < kanzure> look into biopython, bioruby, biojava, that stuff
10:47 < kanzure> _F7_: well ok. maybe that.
10:47 < diginet> there's a bunch of proprietary stuff with spurious claims
10:47 < diginet> is  there biolisp by any chance?
10:47 < kanzure> but i imagine the per-chip costs will be... slim/negligible
10:48 < kanzure> diginet: ignore the proprietary crap
10:48 < fenn> i was thinking we can dye droplets different colors, to indicate contamination and for double checking counting
10:48 < kanzure> yes dyes are our best friends
10:48 < diginet> kanzure, I was planning to anyway, but I just meant to say, I'm highly skeptical of their claims
10:48 < kanzure> fenn: dyes can also block light to some extent for reactions that are sensitive to certain frequencies
10:49 < diginet> like, I really doubt that whichever company it was could consistently provide a 40-fold increase in expression
10:49 < fenn> what reactions are planned that use light?
10:49 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: I think you'll need to write this yourself, but it should be easy to do
10:49 < fenn> or you mean light interferes with the reaction?
10:49 < kanzure> none but sometimes light causes side-reactions. i don't think it's an issue to worry about.
10:49 < diginet> gedankenstuecke, yeah, I'm just most comfortable with lisp
10:49 < kanzure> i mean, there are certain chemical reactions where you have to think about light
10:49 < kanzure> we're not using any of those reactions (to my knowledge)
10:49 < kanzure> dyes are still a useful tool to know about
10:49 < fenn> meh. add an opaque layer to chip  if it matters
10:49 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: i think you don't really need a library like biopython for this task
10:50 < diginet> gedankenstuecke, you're probably right, this is simple enough
10:50 < kanzure> gedankenstuecke: shhhh we need more biologists to be using standard open source software
10:50 < kanzure> gedankenstuecke: and to contribute back changes upstream
10:50 < kanzure> noo this could be the codon optimization module to biopython
10:50 < diginet> I hate python with a passion, so it won't be me writing it :P
10:51 < fenn> o_O
10:51 < gedankenstuecke> kanzure: we can still take the lisp-version and provide a wrapper for biopython :P
10:51 < diginet> ooohhh, what about BioAPL /kids/
10:51 < diginet> semantic whitespaces are the scourge of satan
10:51 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: there is biohaskell if this is more your thing ;)
10:52 < katsmeow-afk> the scourge *by* satan
10:52 < diginet> oooooohhh (that is most definitely my thing)
10:52 < kanzure> oh dear. i am afraid i need to ban everyone now.
10:52 < diginet> I'm sorry :(
10:52 < kanzure> haha
10:52 < gedankenstuecke> disclaimer: i've never written a line of haskell and don't know how much functionality biohaskell provides ;)
10:52 < diginet> but I just reaaaaaaally don't like python
10:52 < kanzure> brb phone
10:52 < diginet> I'll check it out
10:53 < diginet> although, ruby is pretty bleh too
10:53 < diginet> mostly because of the oddly obnoxious ruby community
10:53 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: python and ruby are the only languages i use
10:54 < diginet> I sorry :(
10:54 < diginet> I won't hold it against you :)
10:55 < gedankenstuecke> it's just that biopython feels like the most-complete bioinformatics-lib out there
10:55 < diginet> yeah, python does, admittedly, have awesome libraries
10:56 < diginet> I'm kind of a language masochist
10:56 < diginet> two of my favourite languages are hieroglyphs, I mean APL, and 68k asm
10:56 < gedankenstuecke> but my latest job requires me to use pythons django for web-development and until now i'm craving to go back to rails
10:57 < ThomasEgi> the right language for the right job. except for web development ,high-performance-numbercrunching and systems that are very low on resources such as μC, python pretty much fits everything inbetween
10:58 < ThomasEgi> whitespace rules may take away some freedom. but force sorta-readable code even from people with no prior experience.
10:58 < diginet> Well, I'm just a weirdo, I find lispy syntax by far the most readable
10:58 < diginet> I know most people don't
10:59 < delinquentme> diginet, interesting choice of languages
10:59 < diginet> I think we can all agree that PHP is an abomination
10:59 < diginet> delinquentme, as I said, I'm odd :P
10:59 < delinquentme> hey man its programming though
10:59 < delinquentme> do it and if it works thats whats up
10:59 < diginet> yep
11:00 < delinquentme> being language-ist basically says "im not sure I made the right choice, so I need you to program in my language to validate my decision"
11:00 < delinquentme> silly humans
11:01 < delinquentme> so apparently there is a lab here @ cmu which has a few of these: http://www.motoman.com/
11:01 < _F7_> I've been poking around ezproxy, I can't seem to find a university library with access to the Journal of Cellular and Molecular Medicine
11:02 < _F7_> I'm trying to get ahold of an article titled: Use of spider silk fibres as an innovative material in a biocompatible artificial nerve conduit
11:02 < _F7_> among other things
11:02 < gedankenstuecke> diginet: let me know if you've finished your codon-optimisation-programm. I was looking for a way to measure codon-bias some month ago and hadn't the time to code it myself :D
11:03 < delinquentme> _F7_, would you like to check if duquesne has one?
11:03 < delinquentme> i've got a few logins for them
11:05 < diginet> _F7_ I have journal access
11:05 < diginet> let me get it for you
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11:07 < _F7_> cool
11:07 < fenn> ThomasEgi: cython is chipping away at the performance issue
11:08 < fenn> and moore's law is chipping away at the "not enough resources" issue
11:09 < fenn> though i'm a cheap bastard and will still use a $2 chip even if it means i have to program in C
11:09 < diginet> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/58318055/j.1582-4934.2006.tb00436.x.pdf
11:09 < diginet> python still has pretty bad performance
11:09 < diginet> just sayin'
11:09 < fenn> translation of dropbox link: Use of spider silk fibres as
11:09 < fenn> an innovative material in a biocompatible
11:09 < fenn> artificial nerve conduit
11:10 < kanzure> yes.. please include titles to your links if your link sucks
11:10 < kanzure> and don't bring in a linkbot because they usually just spam all over the place
11:10 < diginet> okay, I'm sorry
11:10 < diginet> _F7_, anyway, there you go
11:10 < kanzure> don't be.. i'm just complaining
11:10 < diginet> and Moore's law is invoked way too much, I prefer Wirth's Law: software efficiency  halves every 18 months, negating Moore's Law
11:11 < kanzure> your objection to python is whitespace, not resources
11:11 < diginet> hey, I can have more than one!
11:11 < fenn> well, you still can't run lisp on a microcontroller
11:11 < diginet> that's true
11:11 < diginet> but I would just asm for that
11:12 < diginet> or C
11:12 < diginet> depending on the arch
11:16 < archels> kanzure: haha I love the irony here. Two weeks ago, Ben Goertzel bans Burton from [singularity] for spouting nonsense about UFOs and "psi". Now Goertzel is talking about the same shit (and with him, the rest of the list).
11:16 < kanzure> archels: stop reading that list and unsubscribe
11:16 < kanzure> it brings no benefit anymore
11:17 < archels> Well, it keeps an updated listing of nutjobs in my inbox, so I'll know who _not_ to trust for any opinion on this stuff.
11:20 < diginet> UFOs man
11:20 < kanzure> diginet: he's referring to this guy who thinks aliens are communicating with him through a singularity implanted in his brain
11:20 < diginet> you know what cracks me up about UFOs? what does UFO stand for? Unidentified Flying Object.  So apparently unidentifed=aline
11:20 < kanzure> wait, no.. chip
11:20 < diginet> *alien
11:21 < fenn> ironically a singularity is more plausible
11:21 < fenn> why would aliens use chips? come on
11:21 < kanzure> for the same reason that i have to use chips.. the technology on this planet is primitive
11:21 < fenn> but ... aliens man
11:22 < fenn> aliens!
11:22 < diginet> my favourite parody of UFO nuts ever: http://youtu.be/59zLZ6PpeSA
11:23 < _F7_> The aliens are probably communicating with his brain directly, Goertzel has been a waldo for some time now.
11:24 < _F7_> The alien telemetry device is made out of meat and has the same X-ray profile as a human brain
11:25 < kanzure> _F7_: how do my fingers telepathically know what i am thinking!!!
11:25 < kanzure> _F7_: btw it wasn't him who's schizophrenic
11:25 < fenn> proxipathy?
11:26 < _F7_> We all have a real brain, housed in the Brain Bank Cities on the far side of the moon we never see. Primarily based on your lifelong constant-threshold Frankenstein Radio Controls, especially your Eyesight TV sight-and-sound recorded by your brain, your moon-brain of the Computer God activates your Frankenstein Brain-wash Radio - lifelong inculcating conformist propaganda.
11:27 < diginet> _F7_: I think you just asploded my brain
11:31 < _F7_> I get this kind of insanity all the time at my hackerspace. Someone will come in, get the benefit of a welcoming community regarding assumed competence, and then they'll start enlisting help for replacing his computer power supply with a tesla free energy device
11:32 < ThomasEgi> since when did tesla build free energy devices.
11:32 < _F7_> and they'll insist that we need to implement a sentience scanner and that all the good science is surpressed
11:32 < kanzure> no it's a tesla-free energy device
11:32 < ThomasEgi> i mean. tesla was a genious engineer. not sume retarded free-energy-hoaxguy
11:32 < ThomasEgi> ah
11:32 < ThomasEgi> a tesla-free... now i get it.
11:33  * ThomasEgi throws that idea into the big fat bullshit pile that makes up planet earth.
11:33 < _F7_> I'll explain some basic thermodynamic as to how you can't get a free lunch regarding energy
11:33 < kanzure> i think we generally understand this
11:33 < kanzure> but
11:33 < _F7_> And they'll respond with something along the lines of "the computers tell elegant lies"
11:33 < fenn> how the hell does this chip work? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvDZh8hmR84&feature=related
11:33 < kanzure> i would be more fascinated to hear your horrible stories about crazies
11:33 < kanzure> esp. in the hackerspace
11:34 < kanzure> fenn: EWOD. jonathan did this.
11:34 < ThomasEgi> _F7_, well you can get free energy lunch^ but... it takes quite some time to get even a crumb of it
11:34 < kanzure> fenn: http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/tag/microfluidics
11:34 < _F7_> Yeah. I'm watching this odd migratory thing to the portland area
11:35 < kanzure> fenn: http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
11:35 < _F7_> I think the main draw is it's sold as a retirement community for young crazy people
11:35 < _F7_> But It just looks like an area prime for geothermal to me
11:35 < kanzure> fenn: there are lots of EWOD papers in papers2/microfluidics/
11:35 < _F7_> Cold weather and hot springs? heck yeah
11:36 < _F7_> Hackerspace crazies.. this one guy came in with a fischer price plastic donut toy thing
11:36 < _F7_> and started making 'odin coils'
11:37 < _F7_> It looked like some basic magnetic playing, wrapping them neatly in magnet wire
11:37 < _F7_> then he pulls out the 8 oz bottle of mercury
11:38 < _F7_> He insists it's part of some kind of antigravity drive
11:38 < ParahSailin_> wow
11:39 < _F7_> I still have the mercury, he abandoned most of it after we told him to GTFO for flowing rivers of mercury
11:40 < fenn> speaking of crazies, i accidentally recorded this conversation at noisebridge http://fennetic.net/irc/erin_full_edited.mp3
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11:50 < ParahSailin_> [indistinct voices]
11:51 < lichen> i can barely understand this
11:51 < lichen> 22 hours
11:51 < lichen> 22 hours
11:51 < lichen> 22 hours
11:51 < jrayhawk> 22 hours?
11:51 < lichen> 22 hours.
11:51 < jrayhawk> damn.
11:51 < jrayhawk> 22 hours.
11:52 < ParahSailin_> 22 hours
11:53 < lichen> her tendency to repeat herself over and over suggests something wrong going on in her head
11:53 < katsmeow-afk> omg, on radio, a church just invited kids to be in a field Sunday, where they plan on dropping 4000 eggs from a passing plane for the kids to catch
11:53 < lichen> hahahaha
11:54 < lichen> amazing
11:54 < katsmeow-afk> sades of turkey drop WKRP
11:54 < katsmeow-afk> man
11:54 < jrayhawk> as god as my witness, i thought eggs could fly
11:54 < ParahSailin_> lol startup chile sent me an email containing the emails of all 333 applicants for this round
11:55 < jrayhawk> because of implanted alien antigravity devices
11:55 < kanzure> come be demolished by me
11:55 < kanzure> http://play.typeracer.com/?rt=zfysisivlt8f
11:55 < katsmeow-afk> they are pre-chicken, but that doesn't make them pre-flyable?
11:56 < katsmeow-afk> i hope they do it, i'd like to see the spin on news reports of it
11:57 < lichen> well that was boringish
11:57 < katsmeow-afk> (fictiona) history repeating itself for those too dumb to learn
11:57 < lichen> typing 100wpm sideways on my bed
11:57 < fenn> sorry, don't listen to it
11:57 < kanzure> lichen: http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
11:57 < lichen> god you play that a lot
11:59 < lichen> until im a professional stenographer i dont really see a need to go above 100wpm
11:59 < kanzure> stenography- so far- doesn't really work for coding
11:59 < katsmeow-afk> hell, humans here cannot think or speak 100wpm
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12:17 < kanzure> http://www.meetup.com/HardwareStartupSF/
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12:37 < _F7_> in this channel we type faster than most people think
12:39 < katsmeow-afk> sorry, could you type that slower? i didn't catch it
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12:43 < lichen> in which forbes doesnt know how to dream http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/04/04/a-few-more-notes-on-the-impracticality-of-building-a-dyson-sphere/
12:46 < katsmeow-afk> considering one cannot do 100% effcient energy-to-energy transformations, won't a Dyson sphere at a Mercury orbit be glowing hot to get rid of heat from the inefficencies?
12:47 < lichen> likely yes
12:47 < katsmeow-afk> not even considering the problems of a Dyson *sphere* as opposed toa Dyson *ring*, due to orbital mechanics problems building one
12:47 < lichen> ideally youd want more a dyson cloud
12:48 < lichen> focused around the poles
12:48 < kanzure> what happened to a dyson cloud
12:48 < kanzure> oh
12:48 < kanzure> you mentioned it. okay.
12:49 < katsmeow-afk> the bits of a cloud are all moving, which would be the problem in tying them togther to make a mesh or sphere too
12:49 < lichen> dont really need to tie them together
12:49 < katsmeow-afk> i agree
12:49 < katsmeow-afk> doesn't invalidate what i said
12:50 < lichen> true
12:50 < lichen> its possible to synchronize them to tie them together
12:50 < lichen> just annoyingly difficult
12:50 < lichen> and the tidal stresses would be pretty bad
12:51 < katsmeow-afk> i think it's ipossible, given that a polar orbit is moving 90 degrees to an equatorial orbit
12:53 < katsmeow-afk> i propose mining murcury, using solar to power it, and fling useable materials out to further sun-orbit distances (also closer to earth), and counter-fling the unuseable debris somewhere else
12:53 < lichen> everything has a use
12:54 < katsmeow-afk> do a ring, where the energy transmit to earth is done at the closest place on the ring to earth,, or move humans to the ring
12:54 < lichen> it seems like it would be more logical to leave what we dont need there
12:54 < lichen> takes energy to move it
12:55 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, but in the theme of equal and opposite reaction, you can fling both materia;s in opposite directions for the same push
12:55 < lichen> yeah
12:55 < lichen> hmm ive put off going to work rather too long
12:55 < lichen> this might be another call-in day
13:04 < kanzure> lichen: are you open to relocating
13:04 < lichen> yeah, depending
13:05 < kanzure> kk
13:08 < fenn> lol "transmitting the power back to earth" is hardly an objection
13:08 < fenn> hey guys let's vaporize earth with the total output of the sun
13:09 < fenn> knapp needs to learn about the subjunctive tense
13:09 < kanzure> i'm still hoping for intergalactic laser cutting/chemistry
13:10 < lichen> oh the day when we blast away asteroids with lasers
13:10 < katsmeow-afk> sounds wasteful
13:10 < kanzure> no no.. use a laser to move distant planets together to do chemistry
13:11 < katsmeow-afk> aim and combine pulsar beams so they are more of a continuous stream
13:12 < fenn> by the time you arrive in your intergalactic chariot, the planet will have spontaneously generated and demanding compensation for "wrongful life"
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13:15 < katsmeow-afk> humans shoot robots to distant planet to terraform it, 50 yrs later shoot humans there to colonise it, and on the way to the planet the humans pass a ship of robots headed back to earth with the same plan
13:17 < katsmeow-afk> what's somewhat depressing is the robots wave knowingly, and the humans look surprised
13:17 < katsmeow-afk> afk to do things irl
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14:05 < _F7_> A passing robot reaches into the vaccum of space from the unpressurized cabin and extends it's innermost manipulator from one of the many bundles of periphery around it's main body. It is it's understanding that the human-like sign language will convey, in an instant, the system of morality that evolved in the absence of the fleshy originators, and the amount of sympathy the arriving humans could expect to receive when they find the
14:08 < _F7_> To be sure, however, the electronic entity modulated Godelian Shock Input over the ships various PAs and communications devices.
14:22 < Mokbortolan_> receive when they find the... got cut off
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14:43 < delinquentme> _F7_, what is this?
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14:55 < delinquentme> so whats the issue with getting different languages to interface
14:55 < delinquentme> like once something is a string... thats encoded in utf8 and basically universal
14:56 < delinquentme> yes in some cases if you're wanting to pass an array things can get a little ghetto with choosing the delimeter
14:56 < delinquentme> but... if those are all documented ... isn't it a bit of a non-issue?
14:56 < fawwo> is it an issue?
14:56 < kanzure> what
14:56 < kanzure> hello fawwo
14:57 < fawwo> heya
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14:58 < kanzure> fawwo: what brings you around?
15:01 < Mokbortolan_> delinquentme: JSON?
15:01 < fawwo> the usual I assume, strong interest into most things in the topic and to see if there's an active community for those
15:01 < lichen> its a pretty active community
15:01 < delinquentme> Mokbortolan_, like formatting is the only real issue
15:01 < delinquentme> like yes best case scenario everything is in one language
15:01 < kanzure> delinquentme: i have no idea what you are talking about
15:02 < delinquentme> but its been proven it can work ... so why hasn't it seen more adoption
15:02 < delinquentme> kanzure, im after "best practices" for intra-language programming
15:02 < delinquentme> intra species love making
15:02 < kanzure> what is "intra-language programming"
15:03 < fawwo> is that just taking all the possible encodings/character sets into account?
15:03 < fawwo> *isnt
15:04 < kanzure> err why would is/isnt matter in that message?
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15:05 < fawwo> because one makes it a plain question without forknowledge/presuppositions and the other is more of an "elaborate" :P
15:05 < kanzure> answer accepted
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15:23 < kanzure> le sigh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organic_reactions
15:23 < kanzure> aren't there supposed to be >150k reaction mechanisms
15:27 < kanzure> i wonder if there's something like xpath for querying chemical structures
15:27 < kanzure> smiles/frowns is just for parsing strings right?
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15:33 < kanzure> wondering why i haven't written something for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrosynthetic_analysis yet
15:34 < kanzure> "It is written in almost 100% Python with a small portion written in C++."
15:34 < kanzure> yep.. 100%?
15:34 < lichen> 50% python, 50% c++, and 50% lisp
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15:37 < kanzure> weird i wonder what all this code is
15:37 < kanzure> did i ever push this anywhere? geeze
15:38 < kanzure> apparently i wrote a tiny retrosynthesis library in python
15:38 < kanzure> in 2009
15:38 < fawwo> the things you do when youre drunk
15:38 < lichen> that seems like a pretty big thing to completely forget about
15:40 < kanzure> it uses smiles, smarts, frowns, and pydaylight
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15:44 < kanzure> "Frowns (a now unsupported Open Source Python cheminformatics library)"
15:44 < kanzure> oh.
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16:00 < F71> *frowns
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17:13 < kanzure> hi queequeg
17:18 < jrayhawk> based on the lack of response to my question in #ikiwiki, i am going to say that git:// spam is not a problem yet
17:27 < kanzure> you might consider my commits to be git spam
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17:45 < queequeg> hello, a friend told me to join because i'm interested in bioengineering
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17:46 < yashgaroth> okay then
17:46 < kanzure> heh
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18:37 < kanzure> fenn: ping?
18:41 < kanzure> hi F71
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18:48 < sylph_mako> ~It does not matter how slow you go so long as you do not stop.
18:48 < sylph_mako> Someone take my flamebait.
18:49 < sylph_mako> Seriously this is how I feel about a lot of transhumanist directives. Why are we in such a dang rush?
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18:57 < jrayhawk> http://www.fastcompany.com/node/75905/print "Change or die. What if you were given that choice? [...] Here are the odds that the experts are laying down, their scientifically studied odds: nine to one. That's nine to one against you."
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18:57 < kanzure> yo gene_hacker
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19:16 < fawwo> thx jrayhawk
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19:25 < fenn> bold words
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19:36 < fawwo> actually the "change" it talks about seems to mostly "just" be about giving people a community to be part of
19:37 < fenn> you mean they're not suggesting a radical transformation in the substrate and form you are made of?
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19:41 < fawwo> yez, though unfortunately I dont think that was ever on the table
19:44 < strangewarp> Hey guize let's adopt green syndicalism and make thousand-year plans to be carried out by our heroic human descendents
19:46 < kanzure> what
19:46 < jrayhawk> a thousand year reich?
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19:49 < strangewarp> [sarcasm]
19:51 < sylph_mako> hah. I see.
19:51 < kanzure> micro porn http://rockmaninoff.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/gc_picture-027m_albertfolchlab1.jpg
19:52 < kanzure> that's not really micro is it?
19:53 < fenn> if it was too micro it wouldn't blend
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19:56 < kanzure> 100 microns is a dust mite.
19:57 < kanzure> or the thickness of human hair.
19:58 < kanzure> those features look much larger than that..
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20:12 < roksprok> http://www.clemson.edu/ces/crb/students/npradha/ECE495/laser_cutter_quotes/Engravers%20Network%20VLS230-30%20NC.pdf
20:12 < roksprok> ^^^ quote for the laser cutter used in nmz787's PDMS microfluidics in under 30 min paper
20:13 < roksprok> obviously tremendously overpriced
20:13 < roksprok> at 16000
20:13 < roksprok> but gives you something to compare to
20:15 < kanzure> "2 inch focus lens kit" eh
20:15 < kanzure> "Reduces beam spot size to 0.001" gah units!
20:16 < roksprok> i think they mean inches
20:16 < roksprok> laser cutter specs kind of suck
20:16 < roksprok> the one's on ebay give 'minimum character size' of 1 mm square
20:16 < roksprok> or 1000 dpi
20:17 < kanzure> this spec sheet is not very convincing :)
20:17 < kanzure> and where do these prices come from? they look made up
20:17 < roksprok> i think it is a emailed quote to someone at clemson u
20:18 < roksprok> who read the paper and wanted to try it
20:18 < kanzure> yeah but i mean, ULS came up with these numbers somehow
20:18 < roksprok> well isn't that where all prices come from?
20:18 < roksprok> being made up?
20:19 < roksprok> and if nobody buys it, cut the price
20:19 < roksprok> if everyone buys it. raise the price
20:19 < F71> roksprok you have things backwards
20:20 < kanzure> maybe they started off with absurd prices
20:20 < roksprok> thanks F71
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20:20 < roksprok> i imagine they have a default of like 3 times total assembly costs
20:21 < roksprok> as the CO2 lasers i've seen are all a few grand
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20:22 < roksprok> and 30 watts is nothing special
20:22 < roksprok> and of course hpdfo is just...their stupid trade name
20:23 < roksprok> for 'more lenses!!!!!'
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20:34 < roksprok> so is there any particular reason integrated circuits are not stacked more often
20:34 < roksprok> i know heat dissapation
20:34 < roksprok> but any other reasons?
20:35 < jrayhawk> Makes the process more complicated and expensive.
20:36 < jrayhawk> Motherboards nowadays are actually fairly deep; usually over eight layers of circuitry.
20:37 < roksprok> do you know off the top of your head an estimation of how thick each layer is?
20:37 < roksprok> 50 um?
20:38 < roksprok> I'm wondering if this is at all grounded in reality
20:38 < roksprok> Using 32 nanometer IC technology, the agent, which can fit into capillaries of the brain vasculature that supply every neuron, can have 2300 transistors.
20:39 < roksprok> from http://www.carboncopies.org/substrate-independent-minds
20:39 < roksprok> the agent has an 8 micron diameter
20:39 < roksprok> I've been looking at 'smartdust' which is a similar concept of very small independent computers and they only got 1mm cubed in 2010
20:40 < roksprok> after working on it for 12 years
20:41 < roksprok> in general, it seems that there is an area between 'robot' and 'nanorobot' that could be really useful, but I'm having trouble finding anyone actually working on it
20:41 < kanzure> robert freitas probably has written about something in between
20:41 < jrayhawk> Intel's marketing copy claims "over 20 layers" in their process as of 2009
20:43 < jrayhawk> I assume their layers are somewhat smaller than 50 micrometers
20:43 < kanzure> gene_hacker: yo, what's the longest channel you've seen pumped in microfluidics
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20:46 < roksprok> kanzure are you planning on using micado/autoCAD for your chip design? or design your own system
20:46 < kanzure> my own
20:47 < kanzure> i'll export to svg, dxf, step and gcode
20:51 < roksprok> and your own laser cutter/stepper motor rig
20:51 < roksprok> i wonder if you could just sell that
20:51 < kanzure> to who?
20:52 < roksprok> all those microfluidics companies
20:52 < roksprok> http://www.microfluidicscorp.com/
20:52 < roksprok> there's one in the uk that i kept coming accross
20:52 < roksprok> and whomever they sell stuff to
20:53 < kanzure> this site looks like a sam
20:53 < kanzure> *scam
20:53 < kanzure> notice the fake photo on their page
20:54 < kanzure> this is probably some viagra front or something
20:54 < kanzure> "Tiny Particles, Big Results"
20:54 < roksprok> they claim that 17 of the top 20 global pharmaceutical companies are their customers
20:55 < roksprok> idex corporation, who owns them, is a 1.5 billion dollar a year company
20:56 < roksprok> i guess it could be just two guys in their basement so they can say 'we're on the cutting edge!!!!!'
20:56 < kanzure> hm?
20:57 < kanzure> i don't know what you want me to do. call them up and give them a cad file?
20:57 < roksprok> no, sell them your lasercutter/chip designer setup
20:58 < roksprok> or find out who buys it and say 'you could make your own for cheaper'
20:58 < kanzure> eh. okay.
20:58 < kanzure> we'll see.
21:00 < lichen> http://youtu.be/Yxfn5PFWYTk
21:02 < kanzure> lichen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQq_XmhBTgg#t=40
21:03 < lichen> cool ill have to watch through this
21:03 < lichen> looks pretty campy
21:03 < kanzure> very much so..
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21:22 < kanzure> kla/win 6
21:22 < kanzure> fjkasdjfla
21:24 < Mariu> Windows Vista ?
21:24 < Mariu> win 6 reminded me of that
21:24 < kanzure> irssi :|
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21:26 < kanzure> klafka!
21:27 < kanzure> roksprok: are you still planning to do your reagent store
21:27 < klafka> kanzure!
21:28 < klafka> behold!
21:28 < roksprok> no, biocurious has one...and many more resources and seems to be run well and is all around fine
21:28 < roksprok> i am still working on a protocols site
21:29 < roksprok> but it is more a teach-myself-python/django
21:29 < roksprok> so it is coming slowly
21:29 < kanzure> ooh ooh tell me about it
21:29 < kanzure> did you hear that protocol-online.org blocked me?
21:29 < roksprok> did you scrape too much?
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21:30 < kanzure> well. i think i hit "the wrong button". they had this perl script that emailed like 20,000 people if you browse to it over HTTP. anyway.. they didn't like that i guess.
21:31 < roksprok> i'm suprised there's someone behind it who cares about that stuff
21:31 < roksprok> i thought it was just kind of left over
21:31 < kanzure> me too
21:31 < roksprok> it was started in something like 99 and looks like it
21:31 < kanzure> it certainly doesn't feel like it has had any new content in the last.. 10 years
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21:33 < roksprok> yea so there is opportunity for disruption there
21:33 < kanzure> roksprok: so you're learning django?
21:33 < roksprok> yea...it is actually really well-put together/documented/ an all around great framework
21:34 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/protocol-online/protocol_scraper.py
21:34 < kanzure> feel free to use this
21:34 < roksprok> my biggest mistake was wasting time on some django book suggested by lpthw instead of going straight to the documentation
21:34 < roksprok> thanks
21:35 < roksprok> but yea hopefully it will continue to go ok
21:36 < roksprok> i also signed up for a neurophysiology lab at a college by me
21:36 < roksprok> it surprisingly doesn't suck too much
21:36 < kanzure> is this a class?
21:36 < roksprok> yea
21:36 < kanzure> yeah, neurophysiology is nice
21:37 < roksprok> i found i actually enjoyed the tedious parts of it
21:37 < roksprok> which is good, because that's never happened before
21:37 < kanzure> have you played with NEURON yet
21:38 < roksprok> a little
21:38 < kanzure> http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/
21:38 < roksprok> is that kind of the biggest neural simulation thing?
21:39 < kanzure> it has very specific model support
21:39 < roksprok> i actually started learning python because i wanted to use pybrain
21:39 < kanzure> i thik some people are doing highly parallel stuff with it (like blue brain project might be using it?)
21:40 < roksprok> wow that's pretty impressive actually
21:40 < kanzure> *think
21:40 < kanzure> channel models: http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/static/docs/chanlbild/main.html
21:40 < kanzure> "tool for creating voltage- and ligand-gated channels whose state transitions are described by kinetic schemes and/or HH-style differential equations."
21:41 < roksprok> wow i'm going to have to dive into this more....i was playing around with one called Emergent but it sucks in comparison
21:42 < kanzure> emergent... isn't that randall o'reilly's thing
21:42 < kanzure> superkuh: weren't you playing with that?
21:43 < superkuh> Yes.
21:43 < kanzure> roksprok: now you have someone to complain to about emergent
21:43 < roksprok> superkuh were you reading the computational cognitive neuroscience book?
21:44 < roksprok> if there is one thing i need it is more people to bitch to
21:44 < kanzure> archels: you too..
21:45 < roksprok> hopefully i will never have to use emergent again thanks to NEURON
21:45 < roksprok> if its good enough for blue brain...
21:45 < superkuh> I didn't read the book. I don't believe it was out when I was playing with pdp++.
21:46 < roksprok> o yea that was a while ago
21:51 < roksprok> did delinquentme ever find someone to apply to ycombinator with him?
21:53 < kanzure> sure.. all of us :P
21:54 < roksprok> that would certainly be a fun interview
21:54 < roksprok> 60 people crammed in a conference room
21:54 < lichen> lol
21:54 < roksprok> we could just put on threatening glares and intimidate them into funding us
21:54 < roksprok> and spend all the money on food
21:55 < katsmeow-afk> "we already built it, we need funding to protect you from it"
21:55 < kanzure> they might go for funding a protocols site
21:55 < kanzure> esp. if it had some traction already. that wouldn't be hard.
21:56 < roksprok> i think they funded a lab notebook site
21:56 < roksprok> so they are in the 'marketing to scientists' area
21:57 < kanzure> the most hardwariest thing they've done is octopart, upverter, whatever wireless router company that was, possibly quartzy, scienceexchange
21:57 < kanzure> did cloudfab go through yc? i think so
21:57 < kanzure> well anyway. cloudfab has been acquired.
21:58 < roksprok> honestly i think this: 'ongoing, automatic medical diagnosis.' from his 'ambitious startup ideas' http://www.paulgraham.com/ambitious.html
21:58 < roksprok> would be amazing
21:58 < roksprok> one of my mom's coworkers just got diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer
21:58 < roksprok> even though she lives within a mile of a machine that could of diagnosed it at stage 1
21:59 < lichen> i saw some guy made a site for connecting crohn's patients together
21:59 < roksprok> and it wasn't even like she never went to the doctor
21:59 < lichen> to share treatment information
21:59 < roksprok> did that get funded?
21:59 < lichen> it seems pretty far
21:59 < kanzure> curetogether?
21:59 < lichen> so i think so?
21:59 < kanzure> patientslikeme?
21:59 < lichen> idk let me trawl my logs
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22:00 < kanzure> roksprok: maybe she just doesn't go to the doctor's often enough. yearly physicals, etc. etc.
22:00 < lichen> i should have had my gut checked like 2 or 3 years ago
22:00 < lichen> havent due to laziness, lack of insurance
22:00 < kanzure> hi juul
22:00 < juul> hi kanzure
22:00 < roksprok> even yearly physicals suck, as other than tits/ass they don't check for any cancers
22:01 < kanzure> roksprok: that's why you demand a scan
22:01 < lichen> ah, here: http://crohnology.com/
22:01 < roksprok> ideally you'd draw blood and check for a few thousand biomarkers
22:01 < roksprok> *tumor biomarkers
22:01 < kanzure> so, i'm pretty sure there was this patent that covered a cure for crohn's
22:01 < juul> i'm taking Endy's synthetic biology course, and I'll have time and funding to do a simple (2000 bp max) sensor+actuator system in either hela or e. coli
22:01 < kanzure> but since it was patented, nobody could touch it
22:01 < juul> any ideas?
22:01 < kanzure> if you want to make a quick buck, go dig up that patent
22:01 < lichen> sounds shitty kanzure
22:02 < kanzure> and then implement it and sell it to those crohnology.com people
22:02 < lichen> only reason i take nicotine is to fix my colitis
22:02 < lichen> and it works
22:02 < kanzure> (screw the patents)
22:02 < roksprok> kanzure: if people actually did that they wouldn't have enough people to read it
22:02 < Mariu> :p
22:02 < kanzure> juul: actuator?
22:02 < yashgaroth> like a chemical-responsive promoter and a gene product?
22:02 < juul> kanzure, some gene or set of genes to be expressed when the sensor senses
22:02 < kanzure> oh i see. not a motor
22:03 < kanzure> hm
22:03 < kanzure> juul: insulin-related stuff? :P
22:03 < juul> kanzure, hah why? because i'm danish?!
22:03 < juul> grrrr! :P
22:03 < kanzure> i wonder if there's any protein that can be expressed to cause the cell to become competent
22:03 < juul> i actually thought about self-dosing insulin via gut bacteria
22:04 < kanzure> oh right there is
22:04 < kanzure> ComP
22:04 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ComP,%20a%20pilin-like%20protein%20essential%20for%20natural%20competence%20in%20Acinetobacter%20sp%20strain%20BD413%20-%20regulation,%20modification%20and%20cellular%20localization.pdf
22:04 < kanzure> diagram of genes for competence:
22:04 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Internalizing_DNA.pdf.B_subtilis_competence_proteins.gif
22:04 < yashgaroth> do syncytin or something
22:04 < lichen> why is that a transparent gif o.O
22:04 < lichen> badly transparent at that
22:04 < kanzure> SILENCE
22:05 < juul> kanzure, has that been verified to work in e. coli?
22:05 < kanzure> YOU WILL NOT QUESTION SCIENCE
22:05 < kanzure> juul: it turns out ecoli are sometimes naturally competent?
22:05 < lichen> i cant even read it due to grey background, lol
22:05 < juul> kanzure, yeah
22:05 < kanzure> juul: evidence.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Genetic%20transformation%20in%20freshwater%20-%20Escherichia%20coli%20is%20able%20to%20develop%20natural%20competence.pdf
22:05 < kanzure> more "competence proteins":
22:05 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/competence_proteins_ADP1.jpg
22:06 < kanzure> that's probably more than 2k bp :)
22:06 < juul> haha
22:07 < juul> nice list though
22:07 < kanzure> gut/insulin needs to happen already.. it's 2012 ffs
22:08 < lichen> the future is here, just not all futures are here yet
22:08 < kanzure> the future is already here, it's just not _HERE_
22:08 < kanzure> it's over /there/
22:08 < kanzure> it migrates at the speed of syrup
22:09 < lichen> that too
22:09 < roksprok> ok so some famous scifi author had a quote 'the future is already here it just isn't equally distributed'
22:09 < roksprok> what does that mean?
22:09 < kanzure> s/equally/evenly
22:09 < roksprok> does it mean....the first world is in the future and the third world isn't?
22:09 < kanzure> no
22:09 < katsmeow-afk> means some people have cell phones, and some don't
22:09 < strangewarp> roksprok: Bruce Sterling I think
22:10 < kanzure> it means "some stuff is in a lab and you don't have it"
22:10 < roksprok> or the future is scattered in various labs and just not availible?
22:10 < roksprok> o ok that makes sense
22:10 < strangewarp> some stuff is in labs, some stuff is available for only the ultra-rich, some stuff is banned in most countries
22:10 < strangewarp> etc.
22:10 < kanzure> ok what stuff is only available to ultrarich?
22:10 < kanzure> prove that
22:10 < roksprok> spaceflight?
22:10 < katsmeow-afk> sure, goto Somalia and see how many have the newest cell phones
22:11 < kanzure> somalia has lots of cell phones
22:11 < strangewarp> heroic levels of medical treatment
22:11 < kanzure> roksprok: maybe. arguably not even the ultrarich can do it. heh.. just the ultrarich+ultrasmart
22:11 < roksprok> i feel like you are setting the bar super high if you want Somalia to have stuff for it to be evenly distributed
22:12 < kanzure> why are we discussing this quote?
22:12 < lichen> learn: definition of 'evenly'
22:12 < roksprok> kanzure: or extremely lucky air force people
22:12 < roksprok> i have been wondering about it for years
22:12 < kanzure> roksprok: haha .. i dunno if having eight PhDs has anything to do with luck
22:12 < roksprok> when i searched i just got crap
22:13 < strangewarp> I thought Sterling was a bit wibbly on some issues, like his inexplicable position on human-equivalent AI (impossibru!)
22:13 < roksprok> so i thought i'd ask in here as i assumed you all were familiar with it
22:13 < lichen> id heard the quote
22:13 < lichen> and its true to a fair degree
22:13 < kanzure> i truly hope it's not some "social justice" stuff
22:13 < lichen> just because the military has exoskeletal suits doesnt mean theyre replacing wheelchairs yet
22:13 < kanzure> because frankly he's just adding to the problem if his hardware isn't open source
22:14 < roksprok> does he even have hardware?
22:14 < kanzure> probably not.
22:14 < kanzure> what a slacker
22:14 < kanzure> juul: what are your other options?
22:14 < roksprok> at least he isn't discussing ethics
22:14 < juul> other options?
22:14 < strangewarp> I think it's the observation that the conditions exist where scientific developments would kick off more powerful trends in social justice, if anything.. because if that isn't what Sterling meant, I've overestimated him
22:15 < kanzure> juul: genes you might pick
22:15 < roksprok> * stops distracting kanzure and juul with misunderstood scifi quotes
22:15 < kanzure> roksprok: how far along is your django site
22:16 < juul> LSD-producing gut-colonizing e. coli that triggers on something uncommon, cheap and accessible?
22:16 < juul> :)
22:16 < kanzure> oxygen?
22:16 < kanzure> oh, uncommon
22:17 < roksprok> kanzure: not far at all
22:17 < roksprok> i would not count on me doing anything
22:17 < roksprok> successfully that is
22:17 < juul> i don't really know to be honest, i'm trying to find something non-obvious that i could actually implement and that would also be useful
22:18 < kanzure> would you have gone for competence proteins, if they were smaller genes?
22:18 < lichen> if you could make bacteria that produce lsd
22:18 < lichen> that would be an impressive feat of its own
22:18 < lichen> much easier than the ochem synthesis it requires right now
22:18 < strangewarp> Sterling's most recent essay on the New Aesthetic was some amazing brain food though - with a couple inexplicable paragraphs in the middle claiming that AI is an impossible dream, so.. that might indicate he believes scientists will curl around to conventional social justice, instead of building up further objective advancements. Which would mean his earlier quote was, in fact, about social-justice-above-all-else bullpucky.
22:18 < kanzure> i think someone finally did a canabis pathway
22:18 < juul> kanzure, possibly, if no-one has done so before
22:18 < juul> lichen, true
22:18 < kanzure> strangewarp: disappointing.
22:19 < strangewarp> yeah x_x
22:19 < roksprok> kanzure this is where your dna synthesizer comes in
22:19 < roksprok> biosynthetic pathway design
22:19 < kanzure> yeah juul is completely constrained by budget here
22:19 < kanzure> but i'm sure he would be happy to use anything of any length
22:20 < juul> yeah it's actually a time-constraint
22:20 < kanzure> oh. what?
22:20 < kanzure> 2k bp is a time constraint?
22:20 < juul> DNA 2.0 can't guarantee more than 2000 bp in less than two weeks
22:20 < kanzure> lovely..
22:21 < juul> and it's only a ten week project
22:21 < kanzure> so.. basically two rounds of debugging at once
22:21 < kanzure> so.. you should have 1/4th of a single variable to debug around
22:21 < kanzure> heh
22:21 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-66-66-101-35.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:21 < kanzure> yo nmz787
22:21 < juul> hehe
22:22 < nmz787> yo
22:22 < kanzure> nmz787: juul is trying to figure out what to spend 2k bp on for endy's class
22:22 < kanzure> to express in ecoli
22:22 < nmz787> oh
22:22 < nmz787> i have some ideas
22:22 < nmz787> lemme check the lengths
22:22 < juul> it should be something that has an interesting trigger
22:22 < juul> but i guess that can be added on
22:25 < nmz787> oh, nevermind
22:26 < nmz787> silicatein?
22:26 < yashgaroth> heat shock response -> rfp?
22:26 < yashgaroth> ooh and cold response -> bfp if that exists
22:27 < kanzure> what happened to those antifreeze proteins
22:31 < juul> kanzure, oooh! that's interesting
22:33 < juul> put it in hela to minimize crystallization damage during freezing
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22:46 < juul> yashgaroth, not a bad idea
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22:46 < yashgaroth> 2kb is kind of restrictive
22:47 < kanzure> what about making some primers and grabbing something out of human dna
22:47 < kanzure> or whatever genomes you have handy
22:47 < kanzure> i guess this is drew's lab.. he probably has interesting things stashed away?
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22:54 < juul> kanzure, hm, yeah i could ask
22:59 < kanzure> jonathan cline has always looked like john schloendorn to me
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23:03 < kanzure> nmz787: let's move towards nailing down the specs on the cutter
23:04 < kanzure> i think we've practically finalized the xy stage plan?
23:05 < nmz787> send me the real wiki link
23:05 < nmz787> kanzure: does that mean we're buying one of the ebay items?
23:06 < kanzure> well. i haven't really thought about this yet.
23:06 < kanzure> buying stuff on ebay is not highly repeatable. but i don't know if we need this to be repeatable.
23:06 < nmz787> kanzure: do we want to build a sustainable design (i.e. sustainable parts supply if we want to sell these things, or expect others to replicate with our OSHW designs)
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23:06 < kanzure> no clue..
23:06 < nmz787> ok so we're on the same wavelength
23:06 < kanzure> i think a reusable design would be nice to have but it's not mandatory at this point
23:07 < nmz787> we should thing about rails and screws then
23:07 < nmz787> getting pricing on those to compare
23:07 < kanzure> fenn might chirp in and say a reusable design is easy enough.. if it's not much more of a pain in the butt for him, i'd say go for it.
23:09 < nmz787> http://www.thorlabs.com/NewGroupPage9.cfm?ObjectGroup_ID=1257
23:09 < nmz787> it has a spec sheet though, which /is/ nice
23:09 < kanzure> spec sheets! what luxury
23:09 < nmz787> lol
23:10 < nmz787> well how much is mmilling?
23:10 < nmz787> i.e. for the rail support
23:11 < nmz787> oh this is more reasonable
23:11 < nmz787> http://www.thorlabs.com/NewGroupPage9.cfm?ObjectGroup_ID=159
23:12 < nmz787> eh, not really
23:13 < nmz787> but what i'm getting at is that we at least need a sheet of aluminum with 4 holes of a parallelogram
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23:41 < strangewarp> oh hell
23:41 < strangewarp> Yvain on LessWrong seems to be working on a massive exploration of a resimulation issue I'd been thinking about for months
23:41 < strangewarp> I hope he takes it to its logical conclusion
23:42 < strangewarp> (And I hope it doesn't end up lame)
23:42 < jrayhawk> you might be able to help
23:43 < strangewarp> I'll poke him if it digresses without hitting the big point I had some insight on, but.. it looks like it might cover that already
23:43  * strangewarp reads the rest
23:49 < strangewarp> yes!!!
23:52  * strangewarp thinks
23:52 < jrayhawk> a dangerous pasttime
23:53 < strangewarp> truly, it has brought me nothing but an exotic goal system and an arts degree
23:54 < kanzure> lesswrong is considered harmful to your health
23:54 < kanzure> clop clop
--- Log closed Fri Apr 06 00:00:23 2012