--- Log opened Tue May 08 00:00:04 2012 00:24 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:31 -!- SolG [~Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:32 -!- _sol_ [Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:46 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:07 -!- Juul [~Juul@208.87.217.74] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:30 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:33 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:56 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-62.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:56 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-62.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:56 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:09 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: archels 02:18 -!- SolG is now known as _sol_ 02:24 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:30 -!- Thorbinator1 [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:32 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:46 -!- brownies [u1042@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-juizcrmvdewdtynx] has quit [] 02:51 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Quit: bbl] 02:52 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-18-64.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:58 -!- Netsplit over, joins: archels 02:58 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:01 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@212.159.112.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@212.159.112.196] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:36 < Utopiah> http://www.wired.com/design/2012/05/we-need-version-control-for-real-stuff/ 05:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:03 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-24-3-85-154.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:04 < delinquentme> http://www.wired.com/design/2012/05/we-need-version-control-for-real-stuff/all/1 05:09 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-62.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:09 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-62.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:09 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:14 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:30 < kanzure> a little disappointed that they didn't talk with me 05:31 < kanzure> but oh well 05:32 < Utopiah> delinquentme: posted it 27min before ;) 05:35 < kanzure> the first somewhat-obvious solution is to git-for-hardware is to just use git.. which is what i've been doing, see reprap.git, lego.git, etc. 05:35 < kanzure> the second obvious solution is to use all the pre-existing version control software, like solidversion or whatever 05:39 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:40 < delinquentme> I really want to tell this guy @ LBL that they're slow 05:40 < delinquentme> painfully so 05:45 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:53 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:58 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:06 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:16 -!- jmil [~jmil@2607:f470:8:3148:841a:9f8e:7367:bb9c] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:20 < delinquentme> http://www.technologyreview.com/article/40245/ << I wanna talk about this for a second 06:20 < delinquentme> So how does one such as ourselves integrate this kind of thinking into our subconscious 06:21 < delinquentme> I mean at the grok / creative subconscious level 06:21 < delinquentme> IE how we understand applications of google search and thus are able to use it in novel uses 06:25 < kanzure> whatever happened to that guy who was making custom mechanical pill dispensers? 06:36 < delinquentme> you mean like a mechanical pharmacist? 06:40 < delinquentme> nnovative employees must buy into a cause. To them, the big picture matters more than the individual who is leading the charge. They prefer to be rewarded with something unconventional and imaginative, and would find a whimsical token of your esteem very meaningful. 06:40 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:41 < JayDugger> Thanks, superkuh. 06:41 < superkuh> ? 06:52 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:53 < kanzure> superkuh: something about JayDugger asking for the sciencemadness.org archives 06:53 * superkuh nods, we talked just now. 06:54 < kanzure> oh man. truesaiyanpower.com is available 07:02 -!- chandoo [~chandoo@ool-ad032250.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:35 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36 < _Sketch_> You should fill it with Michael Phelps gifs. 07:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-66.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-66.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:53 < archels> USE ELF GENERATOR TO "CHANNEL" THE BLONDE TYPE OF UFO ENTITIY! 07:57 < delinquentme> archels, blonde elf? 07:57 < delinquentme> share? 08:00 < archels> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread60055/pg1 08:10 -!- ENKI-][ [~john@c-71-232-69-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:12 -!- ENKI-][ [~john@c-71-232-69-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:27 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:28 < kanzure> http://heikki.zerodistance.org/bitcoin/92797476-FBI-Bitcoin-Report-April-2012.pdf 08:28 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:34 < delinquentme> r/girlsgonebitcoin ? 08:36 < delinquentme> anyone in here work with lab equipment which they think is EXCEPTIONALLY well designed? 08:42 -!- murton [murton@cpe-98-14-243-78.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:47 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:48 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:52 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:54 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:57 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:59 < delinquentme> kanzure, how deep into the mongdb dev are you with the scraper? 09:09 < kanzure> delinquentme: why do you ask 09:10 < kanzure> i have some mongo models somewhere.. why? 09:10 -!- nathaniel [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:11 < delinquentme> just learning some mongo db on rails atm 09:14 < murton> anyone used opencog at all? 09:15 < kanzure> ferrouswheel was writing code for it for a while 09:16 < murton> i see 09:17 -!- chandoo [~chandoo@ool-ad032250.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18 < Utopiah> murton: Id be curious to know if you find anybody who actually used any AGI project 09:20 < murton> well i've installed it and started the agent loop running 09:21 < murton> but it looks like there's more code than what i've gotten working over in the embodiment branch 09:21 < murton> but that branch is useless to me without the Unity 3D client 09:21 < murton> or maybe some code that runs on that client. either way whatever it is hasn't been open sourced yet 09:22 < delinquentme> Light Peak : http://www.myce.com/news/intel-reveals-light-peak-possible-usb-3-0-successor-28589/ 09:29 < kanzure> murton: unity3d is definitely not open source 09:31 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.185.25] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:33 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:35 < murton> kanzure: someone needs to open source opencog is basically the story 09:35 < murton> some kind of "open opencog" project 09:36 < Utopiah> arguably that's not opencog, it's like writing a bot for SecondLife or WoW and asking when you want to try it to open those 09:37 < Utopiah> (but I can understand the frustration of not being able to run simple tests) 09:37 < murton> even if you have unity3d you can't run the embodiment server 09:38 < murton> you can run the server but it won't do anything 09:38 < murton> there's some other stuff that they're not releasing because of politics with state funded universities in china or something 09:39 -!- chandoo [~chandoo@ool-ad032250.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:42 < kanzure> murton: sorry i was just never really interested in opencog :/ 09:42 < kanzure> there's #opencog i think.. maybe you could go complain to them 09:42 < murton> anyway what's this channel into 09:43 < kanzure> see /topic 09:43 < murton> yeah i was just gonna ask, what's a nootropic 09:43 < kanzure> brain drugs 09:43 < murton> yeah but what's an example of one 09:43 < kanzure> meth 09:44 < murton> how about one with acceptable side effects? 09:44 < kanzure> lots of people seem to like piracetam 09:44 < kanzure> or amphetamines 09:46 < archels> meth has unacceptable side effects? 09:46 < Utopiah> coffee? 09:49 < archels> I guess to the uninitiated we might come across as bunch of drug fiends. 09:50 < murton> i assume i'm initiated just not very knowledgeable 09:51 < archels> Have you been hazed yet? 09:52 < murton> no 09:52 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:52 < murton> i assume we're talking about a meth haze 09:52 < archels> no no, just the channel initiation. Do a dual 5-back task, renounce Ben Goertzel, etc. 09:53 < archels> We can skip all that if at some point you built your own PCR thermal cycler. 09:54 < murton> speaking of drugs, this is a nonproprietary drug that can be manufactured cheaply: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/jpm.2010.0472 09:55 < archels> Will it improve mitochondria that do not suffer from that disease? 09:56 < archels> Because that would be the point of transhumanism. 09:56 < murton> i'm thinking for cancer 09:58 < kanzure> murton: feel free to bring even /proprietary/ drugs to our attention, because often the equipment to manufacture them is <$100k which is far less than the healthcare costs of e.g. paying millions for rare blood disease treatments 09:59 < murton> kanzure: i'm not big on drugs, this is the one i know of. i have no qualms with open sourcing bad pharma's ill gotten gains 10:00 < murton> i'm more into open source ecology style stuff 10:00 < murton> i consider drugs and biohacking to be a little higher up the tech tree than i am 10:01 < kanzure> what does that mean? you're lower level? 10:02 < murton> i intend to produce a lot of agricultural and industrial equipment first 10:02 < kanzure> murton: http://gnusha.org/skdb might be of interest to you 10:02 < murton> yeah i've seen skdb 10:02 < kanzure> also http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer#readme 10:02 * kanzure will brb 10:03 < murton> yaml specifications for describing the interface between hardware componenets 10:03 < kanzure> yes but also technology dependency resolution 10:04 < murton> package management for hardware, right 10:04 < murton> i was thinking along those lines at one point as well 10:05 < murton> i suppose i still am 10:06 < kanzure> well, we definitely need people to look over that code and either destroy it or write better specs etc. 10:07 < murton> yeah 10:08 < murton> well i wouldn't know about that 10:08 < murton> i imagine things being more use case driven 10:09 < murton> so right now i'm looking for projects to build and see what the minimal requirements for making sense of the bill of materials and manufacturing instructions are case by case 10:12 < murton> i expect rdf and intelligent agents to sort most of this stuff out in practice 10:15 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:21 -!- chandoo [~chandoo@ool-ad032250.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:23 -!- chandoo [~chandoo@ool-ad032250.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:25 < kanzure> murton: intelligent whatnow 10:25 < kanzure> "ai" is banned in here, you know 10:26 < murton> intelligent agents, i.e. not ai, rule based expert agents 10:26 < murton> ai banned in here, you say? 10:26 < murton> how'd that come about 10:27 < kanzure> i declared it 10:27 < kanzure> also: rule-based systems are okay. just don't be calling that 'agi' or stuff. 10:27 < murton> ia and ai are two different things 10:28 < kanzure> using that 'i' word just isnt helpful here.. just say "someone will compile a big set of heuristics and rules" not "intelligence" 10:28 < murton> ahh yes, the old "just say more" approach to language 10:29 < murton> i actually prefer that 10:29 < kanzure> to answer your question: it came about because everyone kept on saying 'intelligence' without having a definition. even self-proclaimed 'ai experts' have only foggy hints. 10:29 < murton> ahh 10:30 < kanzure> so if you assume that 'intelligence' is an insufficiently defined word, you can work around it and say things like, "the human brain and whatever the human brain is doing" 10:30 < murton> well all i really want is a language in which to describe a hidden markov model of hidden states and associated observations and a flow through which the states pass 10:30 < kanzure> what would you use that to model? 10:30 < murton> then do some bayesian whatchama with partial probabilities to say what state the user is likely in at a given moment and how best to help them 10:31 < murton> which i assume isn't really how humans do it 10:31 < murton> although maybe they do. i don't know 10:31 < murton> i do know that it would work 10:31 < kanzure> hmm i think starting with empirical "Nobody has actually compiled these instructions into a computational format yet" problems is a good place, before you start modeling imaginary variables about humans-thinking-about-building-things 10:31 < murton> for my purposes 10:32 < murton> yeah real world problems are important 10:32 < murton> i'd like to automate a garden 10:33 < kanzure> hydroponics? 10:33 < murton> no. various kinds of composting 10:40 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:50 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:47 -!- nathaniel [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-18-64.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:20 -!- chandoo [~chandoo@ool-ad032250.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:31 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:57 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-24-3-85-154.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:59 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:02 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.185.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17 < kanzure> poptire: are you from austin? 13:18 -!- murton [murton@cpe-98-14-243-78.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:19 < kanzure> http://staceyk.org/diybioworkshop/ 13:40 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53 -!- jenzebubble [jen@173-18-211-34.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:55 < kanzure> Native-sized recombinant spider silk protein produced in metabolically engineered Escherichia coli results in a strong fiber 13:55 < kanzure> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/07/19/1003366107.abstract 13:55 < kanzure> (apparently that's on biocurious' journal club's todo list) 13:55 -!- jennicide [jen@173-18-211-34.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:02 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:15 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:37 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:40 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:46 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17 < kanzure> digivin: whenever you decide to show up again you should look at the biocurious thread about spider silks 15:19 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:38 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:45 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:50 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:17 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [] 16:54 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-150-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:18 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:02 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-250-19-178.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-18-64.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:33 -!- eighteig [~userid@c-24-61-126-211.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:33 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34 -!- eighteig is now known as thylaneb 18:49 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 18:49 < kanzure> hi 18:49 -!- jmil [~jmil@2607:f470:8:3148:841a:9f8e:7367:bb9c] has quit [Quit: jmil] 19:07 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:11 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:12 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:22 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-150-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 19:35 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:44 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: later] 19:45 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:50 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:52 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:52 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:00 -!- thylaneb is now known as golthog 20:09 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:13 < kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3944152 20:13 < kanzure> i've been out done: this guy uses 800 tabs at a time 20:14 < kanzure> i'll just have to try for 2000 tabs 20:15 < AlonzoTG> Ubuntu has this stupid background process that kills my CPU when I open any tabs. =( 20:15 < JayDugger> I'll ask, not "why," though I do wonder, but "how?" What browser reliably supports that without crashing or slowing? How do you find anything in hundreds of tabs? 20:15 < AlonzoTG> So I deleted the offending program form /usr/bin and set the directory entry to permissions 000 to make sure it can't ever be accessed again. 20:16 < AlonzoTG> I can't fathom why people like ubuntu. =( 20:16 < JayDugger> I'll accept "you lack sufficient raw intellect" for the latter, but a simplified explanation would count as a nice gesture. 20:16 < JayDugger> AlonzoTG, I wonder that myself. 20:16 < JayDugger> It takes less fussing and tweaking than gentoo, my prior distribution of choice. 20:17 < JayDugger> Ubuntu's recent releases seem to have, well, drunk some nasty Kool-aid. 20:17 < AlonzoTG> I'm a gentoo user. 20:17 < AlonzoTG> If someone tells me to install linux on a machine, it's going to be a gentoo machine. 20:18 < AlonzoTG> Everything else can go fuck itself. 20:18 < AlonzoTG> (and does) 20:18 < JayDugger> Fair enough...which package manager do you use, portage or paludis or some newer variant? 20:18 < AlonzoTG> Newer variants? 20:18 < kanzure> JayDugger: i use tree-style tabs whenever possible 20:18 < AlonzoTG> I didn't even realize anything other than portage existed. 20:18 < JayDugger> If any exist--I dropped gentoo some time ago. 20:18 < JayDugger> I got tired of chasing ebuilds. 20:18 < kanzure> in opera i like to use the listview of tabs so that i can vertically scroll 20:19 < AlonzoTG> I upgrade mine whenever I feel like it. 20:19 < AlonzoTG> I'm about 30 days out from my last reboot. 20:19 < kanzure> example: http://heybryan.org/shots/2007-09-19.png 20:19 < JayDugger> That four year old screenshot remains accurate? 20:19 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20 < kanzure> yes actually :) i haven't found a more pleasant way to deal with lots of tabs 20:20 < kanzure> *or haven't built a more pleasant way 20:20 < JayDugger> Why the left side? 20:20 < AlonzoTG> I have about 6 browser windows open, 20:20 < kanzure> scrolling.. if you stuff tabs horizontally then you can't read them 20:20 < AlonzoTG> Because linux sucks dick, I can't run seamonkey on both monitors so I use Chromium on my other monitor. 20:20 < JayDugger> Agreed, but why at the left? I'd tried tree-style tabs on the right side. 20:20 < AlonzoTG> (obviously, dragging crap from one monitor to the other is impossible), 20:21 < JayDugger> AlonzoTG, have you tried using a tiling window manager? 20:21 < kanzure> JayDugger: no particular reason 20:21 < kanzure> AlonzoTG: maybe you just suck at picking a good x server 20:21 < JayDugger> Okay, I wanted to know if I'd missed something. 20:21 < AlonzoTG> This is especially annoying because, for some reason, I can only launch terminals on one monitor, so I had to manually re-direct it to the other screen so that I could use it. 20:21 < AlonzoTG> Linux is totally fucked. 20:21 < AlonzoTG> and nobody cares. 20:21 < JayDugger> That would suck, yes. 20:21 < AlonzoTG> they just want to upload into it. 20:22 < AlonzoTG> and pretend it will work perfectly just as soon as they upload themselves into it. 20:22 < JayDugger> Huh? 20:22 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jmil] 20:22 < JayDugger> You lost me there. 20:22 < AlonzoTG> X.Org X Server 1.12.1 20:23 < AlonzoTG> I have to give a presentation to one of my two local transhumanist groups this Saturday. =P 20:23 < kanzure> upload what into xserver? 20:23 < kanzure> sorry, you've lost me 20:24 < AlonzoTG> Into a computer that would presumably be running software that's actually obtainable. 20:24 -!- brownies [u1042@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dkxwhncrwpmyrxsx] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:24 < kanzure> hi brownies 20:24 < JayDugger> Unfortunately, I must now go to work. 20:24 < brownies> hello 20:24 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone. 20:24 < kanzure> brownies: tonight we're trying to figure out a better way to manage 2000 tabs 20:24 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2007-09-19.png 20:24 < kanzure> someone on HN one-upped me and browses with 800 tabs open 20:25 < kanzure> soo i need to come back and beat this :) 20:25 < AlonzoTG> hmm... so that's how people use forums!!! 20:25 < AlonzoTG> =P 20:25 < kanzure> nobody uses forums.. just xrumer bots 20:25 < AlonzoTG> =\ 20:25 < AlonzoTG> I never heard of xrumer. 20:26 < AlonzoTG> doesn't sound like something I'd waste time trying to make work though. 20:26 < kanzure> xrumer is software that breaks captchas and spams blogs, forums, etc. 20:26 < AlonzoTG> !!! 20:26 < kanzure> it's the primary user of forum software 20:26 < AlonzoTG> OMG, so that's where AGI will come from. 20:26 < kanzure> what? 20:26 < kanzure> i said nothing of the sort? 20:28 < AlonzoTG> kanzure, I'm sick of trying to communicate with you. I've got a lot of other transhumanist things I'd rather be doing right now. 20:28 < kanzure> i don't think any transhumanist has ever claimed that xrumer was AGI 20:29 < brownies> i used to browse with that many tabs 20:29 < brownies> at least, order-of-magnitude that-many 20:30 < brownies> but what's the point? 20:30 < brownies> anyway, OS X introduced this great new feature -- once i open about 100 tabs, the whole system hard crashes. then the tabs are all gone! 20:30 < kanzure> 100 tabs is lame 20:33 < jrayhawk> "20:21 < kanzure> AlonzoTG: maybe you just suck at picking a good x server" no, that's an architectural problem that probably won't get solved within X 20:33 < jrayhawk> at least, assuming he's attempting to run a multi-device setup 20:34 < kanzure> is he running multiple servers? 20:34 < jrayhawk> If he's running multiple devices, inherently yes. 20:35 < AlonzoTG> Yeah, you have two choices when running dual-headed; both suck. 20:35 < AlonzoTG> 1. Have a nice virtual desktop on each screen but they behave like two separate computers. 20:36 < AlonzoTG> Choice 2. combine the two, you can drag stuff between displays but it's just one desktop, so you can't write a note to yourself on one monitor, switch the other monitor, and then cut and paste the note into it. 20:36 < AlonzoTG> all monitors switch or none do. 20:36 < AlonzoTG> I think most people use choice 2 20:36 < AlonzoTG> but I've been using virtual desktops since windows 3.11 20:36 < kanzure> what? your complaint is that paste buffers arn't synchronized? 20:36 < kanzure> *aren't 20:36 < AlonzoTG> and there's no reason for me to downgrade to an inferior solution. 20:36 < AlonzoTG> That's not the point. 20:37 < AlonzoTG> I want to easily swap crap on each monitor as if they had nothing to do with each other. 20:37 < AlonzoTG> but still be able to drag stuff from left to right and back without a care. 20:37 < AlonzoTG> Is that too much to ask? 20:37 < kanzure> wasn't xmongrel supposed to do that 20:37 < kanzure> hrm that's not the name.. 20:38 < jrayhawk> I don't actually understand the complaint anymore. Multi-screen setups work fine, including WM hints (with xinerama) and shared buffers. Multi-device setups are screwy as hell. 20:39 < AlonzoTG> I only have one card, 20:39 < AlonzoTG> but it behaves as if it were two completely independent cards. 20:39 < AlonzoTG> =( 20:39 < jrayhawk> What's the card? 20:39 < AlonzoTG> Because I want my cake, (multiple virtual desktops) 20:40 < AlonzoTG> Nvidia 470. 20:40 < AlonzoTG> and to eat it too (drag crap from left to right). 20:40 < kanzure> jrayhawk: oh mighty monitor wizard, share with us your conf files 20:40 < jrayhawk> Usually it's easiest to just delete the conf files 20:40 < AlonzoTG> the card defaults to assuming my left monitor is my right. 20:40 < jrayhawk> at least, for single-device setups 20:41 < AlonzoTG> and that I'm a qwerty typist. 20:41 < AlonzoTG> So I need the config files, even though there have been some dramatic changes of late. 20:41 < jrayhawk> AlonzoTG: can you post /var/log/Xorg.0.log somewhere or email it to me at jrayhawk@omgwallhack.org? 20:42 < AlonzoTG> ok 20:45 < jrayhawk> danke 20:45 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:45 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:46 < AlonzoTG> sent. 20:47 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.75.178] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:49 < jrayhawk> [ 211.496] (**) Option "Xinerama" "0" 20:49 < jrayhawk> what do you not like about xinerama 20:50 < jrayhawk> oh, no wait, i guess that setting is ignored 20:52 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:54 < kanzure> inflatable origami http://staceyk.org/diybioworkshop/submissions/InflatableOrigami.html 20:55 < kanzure> "the social practices of diybio" http://staceyk.org/diybioworkshop/submissions/DIYbio%20Workshop%20-%20Graham%20Dean.pdf 20:56 -!- klafka1 [~textual@c-24-6-19-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:56 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:57 < kanzure> i regret linking to that, actually 20:59 < klafka1> hey 21:00 < jrayhawk> So, for the binary nvidia driver, the options you care about are Option "TwinView" "1" and Option "NoTwinViewXineramaInfo" "0" 21:00 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:00 < jrayhawk> Though at this point nouveau should also support your card and require no configuration 21:01 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01 < jrayhawk> Xinerama is an X extension that provide hints to the window manager about where the borders of monitors live within a shared framebuffer. 21:01 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:01 < jrayhawk> At the moment, you have TwinView set to zero, which disables the buffer sharing. 21:01 -!- golthog is now known as thyla_lrb 21:03 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:07 < kanzure> AlonzoTG: ping^ 21:08 < jrayhawk> You may want to use Option "Xinerama" "0" in the ServerLayout to make sure that TwinView and Xinerama don't wind up fighting over who gets to provide xinerama hints to the WM, but I'm not familiar enough with the nVidia binary drivers to know if that's actually necessary. 21:23 < AlonzoTG> yeah, xinerama blows donkies. 21:23 < AlonzoTG> I hate it. 21:23 < AlonzoTG> it really really sucks. 21:23 < AlonzoTG> totally crimps my style. 21:23 < AlonzoTG> =( 21:25 < jrayhawk> Uh, it does exactly what you claim to want. 21:26 < AlonzoTG> but I can't drag windows across. 21:26 < AlonzoTG> which blows. 21:26 < AlonzoTG> =( 21:26 < jrayhawk> Yes. Yes you can. That is the entire point of the shared framebuffer. 21:27 < AlonzoTG> but I ***NEED*** the ability to switch the contents of monitors from virtual desktop to virtual desktop independently. 21:27 < jrayhawk> Yes. 21:27 < jrayhawk> Everything you claim to want to do is a thing that Xinerama+a shared framebuffer does. 21:27 < AlonzoTG> That need supercedes all other considerations. 21:27 < AlonzoTG> NO NO NO NO NO. 21:28 < AlonzoTG> Xinerama joins the two monitors, when I switch to desktop 3 on one monitor ALL OTHER MONITORS are simultaneously switched to desktop 3, even if I need it to display what's on desktop 2. 21:28 < jrayhawk> That's a window manager problem. 21:28 < AlonzoTG> no 21:28 < AlonzoTG> it's a problem with X's architecture. 21:28 < AlonzoTG> there's nothing any puny window manager can hope to do about it. =( 21:29 < jrayhawk> No, the window manager *can* do the right thing there, and, in fact, mine does. 21:29 < AlonzoTG> It would be a total hack-job to work around that, it would be like like WINDOWS 95!!!!! 21:31 < kanzure> what just happened there 21:31 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)&sa=U&ei=GvOpT-ulJYStgQfE6fCnAQ&ved=0CB4QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFpJx_1mspcaJ45JH-9zoDlUkOXKg 21:31 < jrayhawk> whoops, fucking google 21:31 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) 21:32 -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@dsl092-168-049.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 21:32 -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@dsl092-168-049.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:32 < AlonzoTG> ooops 21:33 < AlonzoTG> You would have to do exactly the same kind of hackjob to fix xinerama that you would to make virtual desktops work at all on Windows 95. 21:33 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34 < jrayhawk> Xinerama is nothing more than notating what portions of a framebuffer are used by what viewports. 21:34 < jrayhawk> There is very little architecture involved. 21:35 < jrayhawk> Decisions on how those buffers are managed and how virtual desktops are managed are made by the window manager potentially using those notes. 21:35 < AlonzoTG> hmm, I guess that could maybe be made to work, but it would suck mondo ram... 21:35 < AlonzoTG> cuz my monitors are dissimilar. 21:36 < jrayhawk> No, undisplayed virtual desktops do not occupy memory unless you're using a compositing window manager. 21:36 < AlonzoTG> For it to be usable, you'd need to be able to move the viewport of each monitor independently, which I don't think you can. 21:36 < jrayhawk> X11 is for efficiently sharing buffer space. 21:36 * AlonzoTG has anime that needs watching, and three other transhumanist things to do right now... 21:37 < jrayhawk> And yes, you can do that, too. That's what the RANDR extension is for, but I'm not sure if that's compatible with the binary nvidia drivers. 21:38 < AlonzoTG> YOu need an EXTENSION for basic, fundamental functionality such as that?!?!?!?! 21:38 < AlonzoTG> (naturally, the extension is named such that no user can find it or figure out how to make it do something useful.) 21:38 < jrayhawk> It's basic and fundamental for todays hardware, for which Wayland is designed and provides in its base specification. It's not basic and fundamental functionality for the hardware X was designed around. 21:39 < jrayhawk> You are resentful that they didn't predict twenty years of hardware development, and had to extend specifications for it. 21:40 < AlonzoTG> I'm flabergasted about how proud they are of the "stability" of the X11 API. 21:40 < jrayhawk> Nobody is proud of X11. 21:43 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:43 < AlonzoTG> The difference between open source losers and neural scientists is that the neural scientists use descriptive names for things. 21:45 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:46 < jrayhawk> I didn't see any acknowledgement of this, so I should probably repeat it more clearly: inactive virtual desktops are not offscreen rendered under a standard X server. X11-the-protocol provides layer masks so clients don't bother rendering anything not being displayed. 21:46 < jrayhawk> If you use a very slow machine or a remote X client, you can watch the client redraw itself when a mask changes. 21:47 < AlonzoTG> I've done that from time to time. 21:47 < jrayhawk> it's actually kinda neat if you're willing to recongnize the utility of efficient buffer sharing under the circumstances for which it is appropriate. 21:52 < kanzure> Copy message 11794 (11786 of 22610) remote:diybio -> local 21:52 < kanzure> Copy message 8913 (8913 of 38616) remote:extropy-chat 21:53 < kanzure> Copy message 11196 (10948 of 15037) remote:enthought 21:53 < kanzure> :/ 21:54 < jrayhawk> you are free to abuse gnusha for mailing list archiving 21:54 < jrayhawk> though i suppose for maildirs i should really provide a tail-packing filesystem 21:54 < kanzure> yes i was hoping to do a public release of the diybio archive 21:54 < kanzure> once i filter out all the crap i labeled as 'diybio' that was sent just to me privately 22:03 < jrayhawk> AlonzoTG: http://blip.tv/file/get/Linuxconfau-XAndTheFutureOfLinuxGraphics549.ogv is a helpful look at the discrepency between X11 and modern hardware and what's being done about it 22:03 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:06 < kanzure> "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." 22:07 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:09 -!- klafka1 [~textual@c-24-6-19-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:22 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:42 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:53 < Utopiah> http://andrewmcafee.org/2012/05/flops-are-not-intelligence-the-type-error-of-the-singularity/ 23:01 < kanzure> meh all of that can be avoided if you admit that neither of those people have reasonable definitions of intelligene 23:01 < kanzure> *intelligence 23:01 < kanzure> with a c :/ 23:02 -!- brownies [u1042@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dkxwhncrwpmyrxsx] has quit [] 23:07 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:31 -!- nathaniel [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:46 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:46 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Wed May 09 00:00:05 2012