--- Log opened Wed Jun 27 00:00:52 2012
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02:16 < archels> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=f4Jxx7Dp
02:16 < archels> "Stealthy virus that robs years of life could be beaten"
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07:14 < chido> anyone around?
07:17 < delinquentme> HIO!
07:17 < delinquentme> noep just meh
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08:35 <@kanzure> geeze you guys are boring
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08:43 <@kanzure> precision quadrotor flying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cseTX_rW3uM#t=60
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08:46 < mutagen> as long as it will carry guns, i guess we can find a use for it
08:49 <@kanzure> http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-interview-with-ed-boyden (with apologies for linking to kurzweilai.net)
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09:27 < AdrianG> why apologies
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10:56 <@kanzure> imagej is nih?
10:58 <@kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575960623/ardusat-your-arduino-experiment-in-space
10:58 < nmz787> yes
10:58 < nmz787> ever hear of these folks : http://www.sciencehouse.com/funded-companies.html
10:59 < nmz787> imagej has a new upcoming version in dev i believe
11:00 <@kanzure> i know of science house via jenny listman and ellen jorgensen
11:00 <@kanzure> also i seem to know Gabi de Wit <gabi@sciencehouse.com> and James Jorasch <james@sciencehouse.com>
11:01 < nmz787> hm
11:02 < nmz787> good memories or null emotion?
11:02 <@kanzure> i don't have much info / haven't talked with them extensively.
11:03 < nmz787> so both nycresistor and genspace have a member petition/invite process
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11:03 < nmz787> and no one is at either place today
11:03 < nmz787> so nyc is kind of dull for me here :/
11:04 <@kanzure> i think all the genspace people are at the ted thing
11:04 <@kanzure> in their "castle"
11:04 <@kanzure> (i hear it's at a castle)
11:04 < nmz787> yeah
11:05 < nmz787> cornell still hasn't figured out if they have funding to hire me... and i can't get comfortable to sit down and code in this apt
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11:21 <@kanzure> 10:29 -!- ruphos [~ruphos@diybiowarfare.com] has joined #diybio
11:21 <@kanzure> quite a hostname.
11:22 <@kanzure> splicer: diybiotech.org redirects to you?
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11:36 < nmz787> diybiowarfare??? doesn't sound too nice
11:36 <@kanzure> no. i think that's ruphos from the mailing list.
11:42 < nmz787> this would be cool to go to, except its pretty darn expensive http://toorcamp.org/registration
11:42 < nmz787> i guess it keeps out the riff raff
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11:46 <@kanzure> hi ruphos
11:47 <@kanzure> nothing wrong with efnet
11:47 <@kanzure> freenode seems to host the vast majority of channels for developer projects
11:47 < ruphos> I have noticed that
11:47 <@kanzure> that's about the only reason it is interesting, i think
11:48 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by ChanServ
11:50 < kanzure> ruphos: so what's up with the diybiowarfare.com domain
11:51 < ruphos> hah it was a joke domain
11:52 < ruphos> it was suggested by a navy friend to use for LAB
11:52 < kanzure> it's a very fine line between "informant" and "terrorist"
11:52 < kanzure> ah i see
11:53 < ruphos> name.com has a hilariously awful related-name suggestion feature as well
11:53 < ruphos> which led me to also purchasing diybiojihad.com
11:53 < ruphos> I've been debating a switch to that one
11:53 < kanzure> were you at the fbi workshop recently?
11:53 < ruphos> I was not, couldn't get the time off from work
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11:53 < kanzure> yashgaroth had the wonderful plan to learn some arabic
11:54 < yashgaroth> just enough
11:54 < kanzure> although he didn't have the follow-through on that one. no diy-biojihad for us :(
11:54 < ruphos> aww
11:54 < yashgaroth> yeah they didn't seem the humorous types, didn't want to risk prison :/
11:54 < kanzure> nmz787 said that nathan head was armed?
11:55 < ruphos> nice
11:55 < yashgaroth> how did he know?
11:55 < kanzure> open coat jacket or something? ask him
11:55 < yashgaroth> I'll bet you those 'local agents' were
11:55 < ruphos> when we were still set up at nsl and had our local feds visit, they noticed a lock picking poster up on the wall and commented about it having an arabic section on it
11:57 < yashgaroth> langton had a commendable number of jihadi posters
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11:57 < kanzure> oh right.. ruphos is with the la group
11:57 < kanzure> i'm a big fan :P
11:58 < ruphos> head scapegoat in chief
11:58 < ruphos> oh, another instance of name.com's amazing related domain feature: when registering biohackers.la it suggested I might also be interested in biofag.com
11:59 < kanzure> so the last update i had from your group was uh..
11:59 < kanzure> cory's stuff i guess? http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2011/2011-07-13.txt
11:59 < kanzure> and the romie mentioning some things.. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/romie-littrell.txt
11:59 < kanzure> you guys were uh.. going to... ah, going to do a kickstarter i think?
11:59 < ruphos> romie and dan were at the bay area thing
11:59 < kanzure> *and then
12:00 < ruphos> you'd be amazed at just how long it can take to make a damn kickstarter video
12:00 < kanzure> well, the video is the most important part
12:00 < kanzure> i remember you guys were filming some of that back in 2010-2011
12:01 < ruphos> attempts first started then
12:01 < ruphos> but the video was terrible
12:01 < ruphos> then there was a second attempt, but it got put on a back burner due to scheduling and tech issues
12:02 < ruphos> the urgency wasn't really there until we got the "we got a laser cutter and need the corner" notice from nsl
12:03 < kanzure> lame.. LAB is way cooler than some lame laser cutter
12:03 < Mokbortolan_> ooh
12:03 < Mokbortolan_> I wonder if you could tack a cutting laser onto a cricut
12:04 < ruphos> 90W laser cutter is pretty slick though
12:04 < ruphos> and they're already working on the upgrade to 120W
12:04 < kanzure> ah.. mine is only 30W. so yeah, 90W is nice.
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12:26 < delinquentme> wait open source laser cutter for kickstarter?
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12:27 < delinquentme> you guys know about lasersaur right?
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12:29 < kanzure> yes we know about lasersaur
12:29 < kanzure> lasersaur did a kickstarter project, then took years to not produce anything
12:29 < kanzure> everyone was pretty grumpy about that
12:31 < kanzure> autopsy reports of 140 centenarians http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19285737
12:32 < kanzure> "The autopsy findings of 140 centenarians (21 males and 119 females) of the age range of 100-109 years were compared to those of 96 elderly subjects (14 males and 82 females) of the age range of 75-95 years."
12:33 < yashgaroth> yay I just learned a new word, longevous
12:33 < kanzure> "a biologist's dictionary".... "longevate"
12:33 < kanzure> extrudate.. i am definitely going to blame jmil for that one
12:41 < nmz787> does portland have a hackerspace?
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12:42 < jmil> kanzure: lol
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12:48 < delinquentme> kanzure, I think there is a lasersaur at CMU
12:48 < delinquentme> albeit in one of the arts departments
12:48 < delinquentme> IDK
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12:53 < nmz787> delinquentme: too bad we didn't get to hang out
12:57 < delinquentme> ^^^
12:57 < delinquentme> yeah man
12:57 < delinquentme> its not often that I'm around people I can really nerd out with
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13:00 < nmz787> i get bored in most places anymore because i dont know ppl there
13:01 < nmz787> i know almost no one in pburgh except my fam anymore
13:02 < jmil> kanzure: extrudate is from an OLD paper. Cells spreading on a "micro-extrudate carpet". albrecht-buehler, circa 1964 :D
13:05 < nmz787> jmil: what does that even mean?
13:11 < ruphos> kanzure: http://charliex2.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/nsl-gets-a-laser-cutter/
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13:13 < jmil> nmz787 extruded material… the cells were spreading on gold but not on glass so albrecht-buehler hypothesized that cells may be secreting protein matrix that attached to the gold or glass. so he called it micro-extrudate carpet
13:13 < jmil> that's what extrudate reminds me of
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13:22 < kanzure> hi juul
13:22 < Juul> hi kanzure
13:22 < nmz787> ever hear of this coworking space? http://dogpatchlabs.com/dogpatch-residents/
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13:39 < nmz787> Glucose deprivation activates feedback loop that kills cancer cells: study
13:39 < nmz787> http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-06-glucose-deprivation-feedback-loop-cancer.html
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13:47 < delinquentme> Compared to normal cells, cancer cells have a prodigious appetite for glucose
13:47 < delinquentme> ^^ COOL!
13:49 < nmz787> how do you find out who owns a google group?
13:49 < yashgaroth> members -> sort by join date?
13:50 < kanzure> the new google groups interface doesn't have the members list or about list
13:50 < yashgaroth> oh snap I gotta upgrade
13:50 < kanzure> no don't
13:50 < kanzure> old one was more useful
13:51 < kanzure> the member list looks like this now :/ https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!members/diybio
13:51 < yashgaroth> still looks normal to me :P
13:52 < kanzure> it used to show other details like "posts per month", "most active contributors", etc.
13:55 < kanzure> e.g. http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/about
13:56 < yashgaroth> the new one still has the member list though? upper right by the settings button?
13:57 < yashgaroth> might depend on the specific group I suppose
13:57 < kanzure> ah right. they must have added that recently.
13:57 < nmz787> i was talking about diybioNYC
13:57 < nmz787> it told me my post has to be approved
13:57 < nmz787> which is pretty bogus
13:57 < ruphos> you got moderated
13:57 < yashgaroth> that doesn't seem very DIY...maybe they had some loonies who kept posting
13:58 < nmz787> unless its because i just joined
13:58 < nmz787> but it told me that after i sent a message
13:58 < nmz787> sooo
13:58 < nmz787> yeah
13:58 < nmz787> bogus
13:59 < kanzure> nmz787: yeah diybio-nyc moderates their list.. i don't think anyone has posted to it in forever. they tend to be hush-hush.
13:59 < kanzure> yashgaroth: no it was moderated from the beginning. although, maybe i count as the loony that keeps posting.
13:59 < nmz787> i'll create my own NYC list
13:59 < nmz787> shit
13:59 < kanzure> haha
13:59 < nmz787> or just send to the main one
13:59 < kanzure> "really-truly-diy-nyc"
13:59 < kanzure> "not-gonna-sell-out-to-genspace-nyc"
14:00 < yashgaroth> based on my e-detective skillz, sung won lim is the owner
14:02 < nmz787> well posted to main diybio list
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14:05 < nmz787> where is the langton labs of nyc?
14:05 < brownies> is there one?
14:06 < nmz787> i'd have to assume so
14:06 < nmz787> 10 million people here
14:07 < nmz787> if there isn't, i'd really feel bad about human society
14:07 < yashgaroth> are there generally places like langton outside of SF?
14:07 < nmz787> i've been to a place in LA
14:08 < nmz787> it wasnt scientists, but feynman went there for art lessons and to party
14:08 < nmz787> was a ranch tho not a warehouse
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14:13 < Juul> what's a good dedicated server provider in the u.s. ?
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14:14 < ruphos> vps or do you want your own box?
14:15 < Juul> own box
14:17 <@fenn> ah crap he left
14:17 < yashgaroth> oh hey fenn what kind of magnesium are you using? I was thinking of trying it out
14:19 < ruphos> colo will probably be your best choice, if you're near a city
14:19 < Juul> hrm, I don't want the trouble of buying and setting up a server
14:19 < yashgaroth> like, colloidal?
14:20 < ruphos> I'm sure there are places that will lease you hardware as well, but it'll likely be pricey
14:20 < ruphos> what do you want to use it for? calculation, general webserver, etc?
14:20 <@fenn> yashgaroth: citrate
14:20 < yashgaroth> ah okay
14:20 <@fenn> also i substitute dead sea salt in my salt shaker (50% dead, 50% regular sea salt)
14:21 < Juul> ruphos, some calculation and a web app
14:21 <@fenn> i dissolve 1 gram MgO in 100ml lemon juice
14:21 <@fenn> let sit overnight
14:21 < ruphos> is there a particular reason you want your own hardware? or just want to get good resources?
14:22 < ruphos> you can do a lot with ec2
14:22 < ruphos> or even linode
14:22 < Juul> hm, i guess I just need at least two cores in one machine
14:23 < yashgaroth> and you drink 1 gram a day?
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14:23 <@fenn> something like that
14:23 < ruphos> you can use ec2, have a smallish instance set up to run the web app, and spin up / down more resource intensive instances on demand
14:24 < ruphos> so you're not even paying for the uptime when they're not in use
14:24 <@fenn> 2 tbsp with each meal, (100mg magnesium per tbsp)
14:25 < yashgaroth> is it still having a noticeable effect?
14:25 <@fenn> turns out magnesium threonate is not an amino acid chelate of threonine. it's some weird sugar i've never heard of called threose
14:25 <@fenn> so i dunno what to do with this 500 grams of threonine :
14:25 <@fenn> yes it's still noticeable
14:25 < yashgaroth> aight I'll give it a try soon then
14:25 < Juul> ruphos, yeah, that'd require some more code-writing on my part though
14:26 < ruphos> true
14:26  * fenn is sitting in golden gate park, lucky wifi find
14:27 <@fenn> i've been trying my hand at aircrack-ng with no luck
14:27 < ThomasEgi> no open wifi networks around?
14:27 <@fenn> takes a while to get any data
14:27 < ThomasEgi> i mean.. arent there living like thousands of people there?
14:27 <@fenn> most networks require a password
14:28 < ruphos> Juul: http://cheapvpsreview.com/multi-core/ has some options
14:28 < ThomasEgi> based on probability i have a real hard time to imagine mankind growing intelligent enough to no longer set up a single unprotected wifi.
14:28 < ThomasEgi> that would almost restore my faith in humanity
14:29 < yashgaroth> it is san francisco
14:29 < delinquentme> fenn http://www.uberreview.com/2008/04/wi-fi-predator-a-diy-long-range-wi-fi-snooper.htm
14:29 < delinquentme> might halp :D
14:30 < ruphos> pfft. get a pringles can.
14:30 < ruphos> unless that is the pringles can version
14:32 < ruphos> this one has a fancy tripod http://www.instructables.com/id/WiFi-Cantenna-without-pigtail/
14:33 <@fenn> i think this is what i'm looking for: http://www.phenoelit.org/dpl/dpl.html  (router default password list)
14:34 <@fenn> comcomcom
14:34 <@fenn> actually this doesn't work, nevermind
14:35 < Juul> ruphos, thanks
14:39 < ruphos> np. unless you feel like being extremely paranoid about hardware security and bringing your own, vps is going to be the most cost effective and simple solution
14:42 < kanzure> dunno about cost effective, but ec2 is worth trying at least once
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14:44 < ruphos> I suppose it depends on usage, but when you factor in hardware maintenance, failure rates and me-time cost I think it's worth it
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14:51 <@fenn> "ByteLight has developed an optical communications system embedded within LED lighting."  someone tell me again why IrDA failed?
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14:58 < ThomasEgi> because it was superseeded.
14:59 < ThomasEgi> optical communication does have some pretty neat advantages.
15:00 < ThomasEgi> i am building optical communication systems myself as a hobby. there are a wide range of applications for it.
15:00 < ThomasEgi> IrDA mainly failed because it didnt match the consumers needs. that doesn't mean it is useless.
15:04 < chido> question: I found a plastic bottle in my lab containing a yellowish powdery substance that everyone claims is sulphur, is there a (safe) way to validate that assumption?
15:05 < ThomasEgi> well in case it is sulfur there are safe procedures :D
15:05 < ruphos> I suggest licking it
15:05 < kanzure> there's probably a few simple reactions you could try
15:06 < ThomasEgi> or you could heat it up and see the melting point
15:06 < kanzure> does it burn blue?
15:06 < ThomasEgi> or you could try to make a sollution from it and grow crystals
15:06 < kanzure> the solution/crystal plan is probably safer than burning it
15:06 < ThomasEgi> it doesnt solve in water tho
15:07 < ThomasEgi> you could also try to do spectral analysis of it
15:07 < chido> I really need to implement some sort of protocol for this, people dropping by casually leaving unmarked bottles of unknown content on the table are not acceptable
15:07 < chido> I'll try solution crystal
15:07 < kanzure> 1) kill the people 2) problem solved?
15:07 < kanzure> oh.
15:07 < ThomasEgi> i would go with burning a bit of it
15:07 < chido> maybe outside with a long stick
15:07 < ThomasEgi> growing crystals simply has too many unknown variables
15:07 < ThomasEgi> or under a ventilated desk
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15:08 < chido> if I had one
15:08 < ThomasEgi> then do it outside
15:08 < chido> which I don't, unfortunately
15:08 < ThomasEgi> guess safest way would be to use a mass spectrometer
15:08 < chido> how much is a safe sample?
15:08 < ThomasEgi> but you probably dont have access to one
15:09 <@fenn> mix it with charcoal and potassium nitrate and see if it explodes
15:09 < chido> I've only ever seen one once and I doubt they'd let me use it for this
15:09 < ThomasEgi> well then. just burn a tiny bit of it. it should burn with a blue frame
15:09 < ThomasEgi> flame
15:09 < chido> fenn, I think I actually have both of those, but I am not going to do that :)
15:09 <@fenn> also, it should smell like sulfur, though i dont generally recommend snorting random lab reagents
15:09 < ThomasEgi> you could also try to meassure the density
15:10 < kanzure> honestly, if you don't know what it is and what purity it is, or its origin/history, then it's probably not as useful
15:10 < kanzure> my suggestio: have lots of sharpies and stickers/notes everywhere to label things with.
15:10 < kanzure> *suggestion
15:10 < chido> kanzure: yeah but to safely dispose of it, I need to know what it is
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15:10 < kanzure> anyone who does not label things should be shot
15:10 < kanzure> perhaps with a paintball gun or something
15:11 < chido> kanzure: agreed, I'm working on a lab rules sheet and that will be on there right ontop
15:11 < ThomasEgi> whoever leaves unlabeld stuff has to snort some of it next time he comes again
15:12 < chido> I'm having trouble tracing back who did it
15:12 < kanzure> was it you?
15:12 < chido> I'm pretty sure it wasn't me
15:16 <@fenn> it were a gnome
15:18 <@fenn> this crackhead just came up and tried to light a soaking wet cigarette with my lighter, then she dropped her drug-smuggling plushy fish in the road
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15:18 <@fenn> so now i'm the proud owner of a dirty plush fish
15:19 < kanzure> fenn it's 2012 why is there no electronics github thing
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15:20 < kanzure> upverter really sucks and nobody uses it
15:20 < kanzure> there's not even an 'electronics wikipedia' thing
15:21 <@fenn> there is, i forget the name though
15:21 <@fenn> opencircuits? it was associated with sparkfun at one point
15:22 < chido> fenn: is the fish up for adoption?
15:23 <@fenn> erm. it is to be used only for smuggling drugs
15:23 < Juul> kanzure, maybe we should start a list of critical resources that should exist but don't
15:24 < Juul> btw, is anyone here involved with 100 year star ship?
15:24 < Juul> i was at the SETI conference recently and I liked the cut of their jib
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15:47 < ruphos> w/in 2
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15:53 < kanzure> Juul: sure.
15:54 < kanzure> "Jason interviews Cathal Garvey about the exciting new field of synthetic
15:54 < kanzure> biology, its amateur cousin DIYbio and his new startup, Glowbiotics"
15:54 < kanzure> what happened to indiebiotech inc?
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15:57 < kanzure> nmz787_: fenn was looking for you
15:58 < nmz787_> Wht he say
15:58 < kanzure> well he seems to be around now
15:58 < nmz787_> Went to an owasp meeting
15:58 < nmz787_> Still herr
15:58 < nmz787_> Here
15:59 < nmz787_> Fenn?
16:04 <@fenn> oh. i just wanted to point you to http://kontraptionist.com and friends
16:04 <@fenn> from our sister camp at burning man
16:04 <@fenn> don't actually know where anything is in nyc
16:05 <@fenn> andy (master kontraptionist) was grumbling about finding people to work in his shop? if you like cnc bitch work
16:05 <@fenn> i think he wants to move to sf though
16:07 < nmz787_> Cool
16:07 < nmz787_> I'll give a call tomorrow
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16:13 <@fenn> quadrotor and tai chi is my desktop background
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16:15 < Jenda`> chido: When you heat it, sulphur should melt at arount 120C and create brown "gum" when poured to water.
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16:22 < nmz787_> Jenda whats that comment in relation to?
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16:25 < kanzure> nmz787_: chido was trying to identify whether or not her mystery material was sulphur
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16:25 < nmz787_> Ahh
16:26 <@fenn> explosives dont care if they're contaminated
16:26 <@fenn> just sayin
16:26 < kanzure> but what if she wasn't using it as an explosive?
16:26 <@fenn> well now she has to
16:26 <@fenn> there's no other use for it
16:26 < kanzure> heh well ok
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16:45 < kanzure> "advanced lip reading 501"
16:47 < nmz787_> Django UNUSABLE_PASSWORDs default to an ! Instead of throwing an error
16:47 < kanzure> that doesn't sound true to me
16:48 < Juul> "I don't even see the parentheses anymore. All I see is recursion, iteration, continuation."
16:50 < kanzure> "all i see are bugs and syntax errors and bad architecture"
16:52 < Juul> hackers gonna hack
16:53 < kanzure> http://blog.ted.com/2012/06/26/do-it-yourself-biotech-ellen-jorgensen-at-tedglobal-2012/
16:54 < kanzure> hrm she seems to have a public community lab bent
16:54 < kanzure> "But what about the dark side? What about biosafety, biosecurity? "
16:54 < kanzure> biosafety isn't dark :(
16:55 < Juul> poor wording
16:55 < kanzure> biosecurity is also not dark
16:56 < kanzure> i think they mean biooffense or something
16:56 < Juul> or "the lack of" biosafety and biosecurity
16:56 < kanzure> so, shaking your head and saying "it's unlikely" isn't very helpful
16:56 < ruphos> see also: department of defense vs. war department
16:56 < kanzure> people die every year from transmitted diseases already (regardless of diybio's existence)
16:57 < kanzure> i think people are complacent with that though :(
16:57 < Juul> complacent with wording? or with transmitted diseases?
16:57 < kanzure> with transmitted diseases
16:57 < Juul> in what sense are they complacent?
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16:58 < kanzure> they bring up amateur biologists as the source for deadly plagues and outbreaks
16:58 < kanzure> but there's already a huge natural level of that which doesn't get the same amount of attention or concern
16:59 < kanzure> the "potential" problems they are worrying about are problems that already exist, and blaming diybio isn't going to fix http://google.org/flutrends/
16:59 < Juul> yeah. it seems that humans have a bias towards worrying about threats caused by human action over threats caused by a lack of human action
16:59 < nmz787_> As i saidb2 weeksbl ago, why isnt HIV on the select agent list
17:00 < Juul> at least current western society
17:00 < yashgaroth> hiv is hard to weaponize
17:00 < kanzure> nmz787_: haha.. STDs should be controlled materials? :P
17:00 < kanzure> yashgaroth: sleep with someone?
17:00 < yashgaroth> if you want to give someone hiv, get a blood sample from a crackhead
17:00 < kanzure> *a good crackhead
17:01 < nmz787_> Some prob think Hiv was engineered
17:01 < yashgaroth> unless you're into some rather kinky shit, it's hard to transmit sexually anyway
17:01 < kanzure> i'm not particularly interested in controlled hiv spread- i know that's unreasonable- but it looks like these audiences complaining about "dark bio" don't understand that.
17:01 < nmz787_> Or mutated,  or the result of gays sleeping with bestiality
17:01 < nmz787_> I dobt believe that btw
17:01 < Juul> yashgaroth, you're condemning big portions of the african population to kinkyness
17:02 < kanzure> (why would it be gay/beast instead of just anyone/beast?)
17:02 < kanzure> Juul: haha
17:02 < yashgaroth> they seem to be condemning themselves
17:02 < nmz787_> Well sure
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17:03 < Juul> kanzure, have you had any interactions with 100 year star ship? I remember you talking about star seeds which seems relevant.
17:03 < kanzure> no i haven't
17:04 < Juul> might be a way to get funding for such things as skdb?
17:05 < kanzure> ah, possibly.. funding isn't the problem at the moment, in my opinion
17:05 < Juul> ok
17:05 < kanzure> skdb has a lot of architecture issues that were never figured out
17:05 < kanzure> (mostly about package management and how to do that for hardware)
17:06 < Juul> ok
17:06 <@fenn> i wouldnt mind some funding
17:06 < kanzure> then i went down a CAD hole, thingiverse-github-clone hole, and a few other things
17:06 < kanzure> fenn: i'm not convinced of that
17:07 < kanzure> fenn: you don't sound like you want to do anything? but i could be wrong
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17:08 < kanzure> Juul: without CAD, skdb is sorta useless in a few ways. but a simpler level- like technology dependency trees- are still somewhat useful.
17:08 <@fenn> it's just hard to draw inferences when there's no data
17:09 <@fenn> i mean, there are some poorly documented open hardware projects out there, but for the most part the designs are inaccessible to computers
17:09 < kanzure> and it's useless without verification, working prototypes, etc.
17:09 < kanzure> s/and it's/and those interfaces
17:09 < kanzure> *are
17:10 <@fenn> not totally useless, but still it'd be nice to be able to simulate something
17:10 <@fenn> then you just ask questions by running simulations
17:10 <@fenn> does tab A fit into slot B? run a simulation
17:10 <@fenn> does it still work at 100 C ambient temperature? run a simulation
17:11  * fenn goes off to absorb some photons
17:12 < kanzure> fenn: noo wait. you still haven't argued to me that you actually want to build things or something.
17:12 < Juul> kanzure, ok, so why not throw some money at the problem and see what comes out?
17:12 < kanzure> which problem?
17:12 < nmz787_> Mmmmm money
17:13 < Juul> the problem of designing something that can become a storage architecture for everything needed for a starseed
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17:13 < kanzure> i don't think anyone is an expert at that
17:13 < nmz787_> Wat is hope conference?
17:13 < kanzure> i think that makes us the most qualified people to design that.
17:14 < Juul> nmz787_, hackers on planet earth
17:14 < kanzure> nmz787_: security conference.
17:14 < Juul> hm, some of it is security, a lot of it is not.
17:14 < kanzure> Juul: it's been years in here and nobody has reviewed our architecture for skdb or suggested something better
17:14 < Juul> there is a panel by mitch altman about DARPA funding in the hacker community this year
17:14 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/skdb/
17:14 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/skdb/package_spec.html
17:15 < Juul> kanzure, the thing is that our time is limited
17:16 < Juul> maybe spending some time to set up a separately funded project with a manager and a group of programmers might result in something good?
17:17 < kanzure> if i can't write a full spec, how would they be any better than my programming performance?
17:17 < kanzure> delegation is really useful when you can define the problem or find someone who knows the problem already
17:17 < kanzure> for instance, let's specifically talk about CAD
17:17 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad/tree/esolid/esolid.py
17:18 < kanzure> unfortunately, it seems nobody in the open source community knows how to implement this sort of system
17:18 < kanzure> (with the exception of some of the haskell folks, but i'm not 100% convinced that an implicit cad library in haskell would make a usable cad kernel)
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17:19 < kanzure> i'm just not sure that throwing money at random people will legitimately solve these problems
17:19 < ruphos> it will totally work if I'm one of the people
17:19 < ruphos> promise
17:19 < Juul> ok, so why not get some people who don't know how to implement this to explore the problem for a while. Find some people who are motivated and let them at it for a while. These are long term goals after all.
17:20 < kanzure> "explore the problem" ?
17:20 < kanzure> then you'll get shit like blender and openscad :(
17:20 < kanzure> but maybe you can elaborate.. what is your plan exactly?
17:20 < nmz787_> What about the prog makerbot uses
17:20 < kanzure> openscad?
17:21 < kanzure> slic3r?
17:21 < nmz787_> The one you open the stl file in
17:21 < kanzure> yeah, stl isn't cad
17:21 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cadfaq
17:23 < kanzure> huh i don't seem to mention pythonocc on that page.. it's some wrappers for opencascade in python. opencascade is the same thing that heekscad and freecad use.
17:23 < Juul> I don't know very much about CAD, so I will be much worse at defining the problem than you. I am suggesting that specify the problem as well as you can, set a long term goal to be achieved and let some creative skilled people loose on it to see what they come up with, with you or someone else acting to guide them. It could be that nothing but a few academic papers come out of it, but even if all it does is get more people interested then I would say it's
17:23 < Juul>  worth doing (if you don't spend your own money that is).
17:23 < kanzure> ah, well, i would be spending my own money, yes.
17:24 < kanzure> if i am going to hole myself up and write the spec, i might as well implement it too
17:24 < Juul> well that's why I was suggesting 100 year star ship as possible long-term funding for something like this
17:24 < kanzure> solidworks was primarily written in 6 months.
17:24 < kanzure> this isn't rocket science, we just all suck
17:24 < nmz787_> Why not use pro ware?
17:25 < Juul> hm
17:25 < kanzure> nmz787_: looks like tax software.. proware-cpa.com?
17:25 < nmz787_> Is tjere a way to use payware now but swap to open when skdb get steam and working results
17:25 < nmz787_> I meant professional
17:25 < kanzure> not really, a lot of solidworks' interfaces are hard to reverse engineer
17:26 < nmz787_> I.e. solidworks
17:26 < kanzure> i've been working on reverse engineering solidworks' file format.. it's a pain
17:26 < kanzure> it's like a cab file wrapped in another ms container, then using the original xt file format from parasolid, except messed up some
17:26 < kanzure> none of the parametric cad systems are linux-based, and they all cost a buttload.. so nobody would be able to use the system once it was built anyway
17:28 < kanzure> kokompe was an interesting implementation.. they used f-reps instead of nurbs or other models. so they just had a list of inequalities defining the boundaries of a shape, which results in somewhat smooth surfaces and parametric models (sorta).
17:28 < kanzure> implicitcad is another contender..
17:28 < kanzure> https://github.com/colah/ImplicitCAD
17:28 < kanzure> https://github.com/davidad/kokompe-old
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17:29 < nmz787_> Oh, so the file not being open is a show stopper
17:29 < kanzure> that too yes
17:29 < kanzure> if you can't read the file, then what's the point?
17:29 < nmz787_> But if you figured that out then cad on windows, skdb on linux
17:30 < kanzure> so you'd have to reboot each time you want to make hardware?
17:30 < nmz787_> Gain momentum get someone to develop linux cad
17:30 < nmz787_> Yeah or have two pcs
17:30 < kanzure> who is this mystical person ??
17:31 < kanzure> i don't think that person exists, and waiting for someone to fall out of the sky seems silly
17:31 < nmz787_> anyobe who worked on thw existing linux caf progs
17:32 < nmz787_> Gve them.money
17:32 < kanzure> the existing linux cad programs do not do nurbs, with the exception of freecad/heekscad, but that's only because they use opencascade
17:32 < kanzure> and opencascade does it only because they pay some people to maintain old, broken code from the 80s
17:32 < kanzure> (and rewriting opencascade is too painful of a process; i investigated that a long time ago and spoke about it at scipy 2010)
17:33 < kanzure> opencascade's problem seems to be that they have nobody that understands their entire program.. as a result they have 100s of modules that reimplement the same features
17:35 < kanzure> Juul: if you're interested in helping out, i think porting esolid to python is a good way to go forward
17:35 < kanzure> esolid was some guy's phd thesis for nurbs cad. the source code was released, but without a license.
17:35 < kanzure> so there's some literature about the math that it uses, plus source code
17:36 < kanzure> i started rewriting it in python http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad/tree/esolid/esolid.py
17:36 < Juul> ok, did you ask the guy about the license?
17:36 < kanzure> yeah, he never replied
17:36 < kanzure> but since it's so hard to confirm that it works, i started making a wrapper using cython
17:36 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad/tree/esolid/wrapper/wrapper.pyx
17:36 < kanzure> and then the concept is to slowly port over the functionality into python
17:37 < Juul> ok
17:38 < kanzure> dunno. maybe you're better at nurbs math than me, and it would be like 20 minutes to write out the code?
17:38 < Juul> haha
17:38 < kanzure> i keep thinking that there's probably something in numpy/scipy that does 30% of this problem
17:40 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/lolcad/boole_notes.txt
17:46 < kanzure> Charlie: are you from austin
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17:48 < kanzure> i've uploaded some new papers here:
17:49 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/cad/
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17:58 < brownies> what's a nurb?
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17:59 < Juul> kanzure, isn't ESOLID very very slow?
18:02 < kanzure> brownies: it's like a b-spline
18:02 < kanzure> brownies: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/cad/A%20Primer%20on%20NURBS%20-%20David%20F.%20Rogers%20-%20SIGGRAPH%202002.pdf
18:02 < kanzure> Juul: if you know of a faster method, let me know
18:02 < kanzure> a faster method that either has source code or the same amount of documentation, heh
18:03 < brownies> but making a nurb is hard?
18:03 < Juul> yes ok
18:03 < kanzure> brownies: nurbs are easy, it's the intersection algorithms that are more difficult
18:03 < kanzure> surface-surface intersection algorithms
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18:04 < brownies> i see
18:05 < nmz787_> How do you define space... i.e. mass vs vacuum (hollow sphere or filled)?
18:06 < nmz787_> I could imagine nanoengineer designed two buckyballs interlocked, so not really intersection but interlinkes
18:06 < nmz787_> Interlinked
18:06 < nmz787_> What about nanoengineer as an engine?
18:07 < nmz787_> And why nurbs if everything is atoms?
18:07 < delinquentme> anyone in here have ideas about how I might go about getting programming work in bioinformatics
18:07 < delinquentme> with as *LITTLE* leg work as possible
18:07 < kanzure> nmz787_: because how do you store a billion trillion atoms in a cad file?
18:07 < delinquentme> pay doesnt matter
18:07 < nmz787_> Why not just wasye space in a binary 3d graph?
18:07 < AdrianAway> delinquentme: thats why everyone works for free
18:07 < kanzure> AdrianAway: nobody works for free
18:07 < AdrianAway> delinquentme: work for free in bioinformatics
18:08 < AdrianAway> i am sure nobody will say no to free labour
18:08 < nmz787_> 0 no particle 1 particle
18:08 < delinquentme> AdrianAway, @_@
18:08 < kanzure> delinquentme: they are paying pretty well for bioinformatics peeps
18:08 < kanzure> nmz787_: so you want a grid of 0s and 1s to represent atom placement in a file?
18:08 < nmz787_> Sure
18:08 < kanzure> nmz787_: nanoengineer's file format is a little custom, but i think it also uses .pdb everywhere
18:08 < delinquentme> but doing what in bioinformatics?
18:08 < brownies> suppose i'm walking along one day
18:09 < brownies> and a random kids comes up and says "HEY! i really want to code for you! BUT WAIT! it's free!"
18:09 < brownies> think i'll let him write code for anything important?
18:09 < nmz787_> I guess atoms can vary in distabce so a grid isbt optimal unles oversized
18:09 < kanzure> nmz787_: there are also things like e.g. chunks of atoms
18:09 < kanzure> 10x10x10 slab of carbon
18:09 < nmz787_> But still space is gettibg cheaper and cheaper
18:10 < nmz787_> 3d binary grid then zip it
18:10 < kanzure> representing the curve of a screw at atomic precision is largely unnecessary
18:10 < nmz787_> Sure but so what
18:10 < nmz787_> The atoms exiat
18:10 < nmz787_> Exist
18:10 < nmz787_> If its 1000 lines to code vs billions
18:11 < kanzure> a static collection of atoms is just like stl- it's not parametric cad really. the parametric cad file formats use interactive base objects that you can redraw. it's not like openscad where you have to recompile a script.
18:13 < kanzure> lemme see if i can find you a demo
18:13 < delinquentme> brownies, and this is one of those times where we're required to think
18:13 < delinquentme> versus listen to our gut
18:13 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHnPvyRzfo (except i dunno why the wheels are animated)
18:13 < delinquentme> the quick sum of it is: " Sometimes out gut it wrong "
18:14 < Juul> kanzure, they're actually stored as the base objects? why not just store the resulting NURBs? I guess I can see the usefulness of storing the base objects, but it seems like it would take a while to open a file containing a complex object
18:14 < delinquentme> open source code?
18:14 < kanzure> Juul: well, i haven't completely reverse engineered their file format. but they seem to store more data than is in the STEP format.
18:14 < brownies> delinquentme: what?
18:14 < delinquentme> brownies im saying that the free == shit quality is a busted model
18:14 < kanzure> i thik they have a csg format, and then they render that. but when you edit like the width of the original base cylinder you drew, it updates the rest of the parametric relationships on screen.
18:15 < kanzure> delinquentme: so you don't want to make money?
18:15 < brownies> delinquentme: i was not aware that basic psychology and economics had both been disproven
18:15 < kanzure> i have lots of bioinformatics-related work i could give you
18:15 < kanzure> especially if i'm not paying
18:16 < delinquentme> brownies, make simple statements plz ... I think if we're spending less time trying to figure out what each other means
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18:16 < delinquentme> the quicker well get somewhere w the convo
18:16 < delinquentme> what psychology and what economics
18:17  * brownies headdesk
18:17 < brownies> if i pay for something, i value it
18:17 < brownies> and i give it useful work to do
18:17 < brownies> instead of fetching my coffee every morning and then being a human footrest
18:17 < brownies> conversely, if something has a price, that means it has value to people
18:17 < brownies> and, whoa, now i want some of that value, too!
18:18 < brownies> so unless you're worthless and your code is worthless and you have no career goals of any sort, i'd recommend charging for your work.
18:18 < kanzure> wise words
18:19 < delinquentme> brownies, but then how can open source code work
18:19 < delinquentme> awesome programmers contribute free work to linux core
18:19 < delinquentme> to ubuntu
18:19 < delinquentme> so like *CLEARLY*
18:19 < brownies> oftentimes people are getting paid by a company to work on OSS
18:19 < kanzure> no.. canonical pays their programmers
18:19 < delinquentme> that value == money is not a truly functional model
18:19 < kanzure> apple, google, nokia, all those companies pay people to work on chromium and webkit
18:19 < brownies> because the company values having those smart people around, because the company is using that OSS -- so who better to ask for things?
18:19 < delinquentme> often
18:19 < delinquentme> but always?
18:19 < brownies> no, not always
18:19 < delinquentme> then we've disproved the model
18:20 < brownies> other times, people create OSS to create tangible proof that they have value
18:20 < kanzure> nobody has disproved that nokia pays people to work on webkit
18:20 < kanzure> i think you're lying delinquentme.
18:20 < brownies> no, genius, because in the OSS model, you're not working FOR anyone.
18:20 < delinquentme> you're absolutely right
18:20 < delinquentme> ....
18:20 < delinquentme> wait wait.
18:20 < brownies> what was the model anyway?
18:20 < brownies> people value things that they pay for?
18:20 < delinquentme> so because im not working *FOR* someone
18:20 < brownies> you haven't disproved that at all.
18:20 < delinquentme> the model of $$$ == value
18:20 < delinquentme> or more specifially
18:21 < brownies> i mean, i'm not getting paid to sit here and teach you basic facts about humanity
18:21 < brownies> and yet HERE I AM. HOLY CRAP.
18:21 < delinquentme> specifically * that you cant get good code for free
18:21 < brownies> i don't recall saying they were necessarily equal, or that one implied the other
18:21 < delinquentme> sounds like bad logic is creeping.
18:21 < delinquentme> you didnt?
18:21 < delinquentme> hmm.
18:21 < brownies> scroll up.
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18:22 < brownies> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_justification
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18:24 < brownies> "i paid that guy $10,000 to work for me last summer" + "i'm not an idiot who wastes $10K" = "yes, that was definitely a wise move"
18:24 < brownies> "that guy worked for me for free last summer" + "look, there's a free pizza in that dumpster, too!" = "well, he was ok, i guess"
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18:24 < delinquentme> simply put:  Things that are free are not without value.
18:24 -!- nathaniel [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
18:25 < brownies> i never claimed that
18:25 < delinquentme> lets not ( for some reason ) attempt to make that more complex than it needs to be
18:25 < delinquentme> perhaps that was my assumption.
18:25 < brownies> but, seeing as how you want a "job" you should be more interested in perceived value.
18:25 < brownies> things that are free have less perceived value than things that are not free.
18:25 < brownies> in fact, THE SAME THING will have less perceived value when it's free compared to when it's not free.
18:25 < delinquentme> thank you kimosabe
18:26 < kanzure> brownies: not quite.. in many situations i perceive a proprietary tool as worthless and incompatible with my other licenses
18:26 < brownies> there are counterexamples that demonstrate other forms of cognitive dissonance, but they're not terribly relevant to your impoverished situation.
18:26 < kanzure> *proprietary, high-cost tool
18:26 < brownies> kanzure: yes, that's an example of what happens when we introduce other metrics, instead of just money
18:27 < brownies> however, he's competing for the job with people who already talking dollars and cents, so he's going to be valued on that metric regardless.
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19:21 < Steel2> so
19:21 < Steel2> y'all see the germline babies thing?
19:22 < yashgaroth> "the"?
19:23 < Steel2> yashgaroth, check my fb feed
19:23 -!- Juul [~Juul@171.66.167.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:24 < yashgaroth> argh daily mail
19:25 < yashgaroth> ohhh it's that mitochondrial thing
19:26 < Steel2> we going out saturday?
19:26 < yashgaroth> you know it, are there any good places in la jolla?
19:27 < Steel2> no idea
19:27 < yashgaroth> yeah me either
19:27 < Steel2> I'll ask marissa
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20:20 < klafka1> man
20:20 < klafka1> i am really nervous about a phone code interview
20:20 < klafka1> has anyone had one of those before?
20:21 < kanzure> sure.
20:21 < klafka1> do you like code while you talk to them
20:21 < kanzure> i could grill you over the phone if you like
20:21 < kanzure> haha, hell no
20:22 < klafka1> it's more like they ask you technical questions right?
20:22 < kanzure> i mean, it's conceivable that they might ask you to, but then they would be idiots
20:22 < klafka1> could it be the recruiter was just sort of not exactly sure
20:22 < klafka1> since they told me they started 2 weeks ago
20:22 < kanzure> hah
20:22 < klafka1> i got this emial
20:22 < kanzure> what do you mean though? someone asked you to write.. what?
20:22 < klafka1> I showed your information to our co-founder and he wants to move forward with a coding interview for an engineering role.  Can you please let me know when works best for you in PDT  and if you prefer phone or skype for the coding interview (and where to reach you)?
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20:23 < klafka1> Yes, you will need to be at your computer since you'll be doing the coding over internet.  It will probably last around an hour.
20:23 < kanzure> klafka1: he probably just means "interview for a coder" rather than "interview for some other position"
20:23 < kanzure> oh, they probably want to watch you write code
20:23 < klafka1> that really scares me fuck
20:23 < brownies> sounds creepy
20:23 < klafka1> i'm trying to think of how to prepare
20:23 < kanzure> yeah that's pretty stupid
20:23 < klafka1> i've been reading some style guides for python
20:23 < klafka1> and reading up on itertools and shit
20:23 < klafka1> i hope they like to see me google shit
20:23 < klafka1> idk
20:23 < brownies> you should do skype
20:23 < klafka1> it is over skype
20:23 < kanzure> they will probably give you a link to etherpad and not watch your screen
20:24 < klafka1> ah ok
20:24 < brownies> so that you don't have to hold the phone while you google for answers
20:24 < klafka1> good point
20:24 < klafka1> i am
20:24 < kanzure> if they ask to see your screen, that's a cheap shot in my opinion
20:24 < klafka1> i agree
20:24 < klafka1> yeah you're probably right with the etherpad thing
20:24 < kanzure> you should ask to see their screen instead
20:24 < klafka1> hahaha
20:24 < brownies> "it's only fair"
20:24 < klafka1> haha
20:25 < klafka1> anyways
20:25 < klafka1> i really am tired of doing support
20:25 < kanzure> honestly these interviews can be hit or miss
20:25 < brownies> there's nothing you can do to prepare at this point
20:25 < klafka1> especially since i have't had a developer role
20:25 < brownies> just chill. get some sleep. don't drink too much coffee beforehand.
20:25 < klafka1> idk i told them that and they still want to talk to me
20:25 < kanzure> you write okay python already, it really shouldn't be an issue
20:25 < brownies> that sort of thing, you can do. but that's about it.
20:25 < klafka1> so whatever
20:26 < kanzure> don't tell them you're bad at coding -_-
20:26 < kanzure> also don't say you work for free
20:26 < klafka1> kanzure i won't
20:26 < klafka1> i won't
20:26 < klafka1> hahahahahaha
20:26 < klafka1> i'm not giving up my paying job for a non-paying job
20:26 < klafka1> even though i have to commute to menlo park
20:26 < brownies> that seems to be a real trend here
20:26 < nmz787> sup you flamers
20:26 < kanzure> if you don't feel comfortable taking a leadership role on their software, tell them that- like what sort of capabilities you think you're good for, they would appreciate that
20:26 < nmz787> (as in flame wars)
20:26 < brownies> "i want a job... but i'm terrible at what i do... and i hate money"
20:27 < nmz787> yeah to be smart you gotta know your limitations
20:27 < klafka1> yeah
20:27 < klafka1> exactly
20:27 < nmz787> i liberally tell people i'm not good with math, i understand it like i understand art... beautifully able to communicate abstract thoughts, and yeah i can see it when a lecturer is talking, but i hate computing that shit
20:27 < klafka1> meh whatever i'll still have a job regardless
20:28 < klafka1> i hada  momemnt where i didn't understand how to create a probability density function that described a unit circle and I freaked out
20:28 < klafka1> well
20:28 < klafka1> the area of a unit circle
20:28 < kanzure> that's not going to come up in a programming interview
20:28 < nmz787> thats open for parallelizing
20:29 < klafka1> no but it mattered because i was making test cases for my MCMC sampler
20:29 < brownies> isn't the area of a unit circle... a constant...
20:29 < klafka1> nmz no it's not it's just 1 within the boundary of te unit circle
20:29 < klafka1> brownies i wanted a probability density function that described a unit circle though
20:30 < brownies> oh i see. i.i.d where x^2 + y^2 < 1 and 0 elsewhere.
20:30 < nmz787> nah but i've heard that was an example of using parallelized programming
20:30 < brownies> (right? did i just say something very dumb?)
20:30 < klafka1> basically it's a uniform distribution on the area (x?h)2+(y?k)2=r2
20:30 < nmz787> to compute an actual value, i think it was using monte carlo simulations
20:30 < brownies> depends how you want to "describe" the circle
20:30 < klafka1> oh yeah
20:30 < klafka1> nmz that's what i was doing
20:31 < brownies> klafka1: heh ok good
20:31 < klafka1> brownies exactly
20:31 < klafka1> i just had this freak out moment though where i was like "it's been 2 years since i've done machine learning shit i'mf orgetting probability"
20:31 < klafka1> and i downloaded wasserman's all of statistics and read the first few chaptesr and fell asleep
20:31 < klafka1> i think it's the lapsed grad students version of the cute in high school girl that realized she gains 20 pounds and eats a bunch of bon bons
20:32 < brownies> initially i was thinking "area of a circle" and i was going to suggest the probability density function could just be the dirac delta function with a spike at pi/4
20:32 < brownies> =P
20:33 < brownies> klafka1: oh i totally feel that.
20:33 < brownies> there's no known cure. -_-
20:33 < klafka1> hahah
20:33 < klafka1> i still need to actually write that unit test though
20:33 < klafka1> i realized i needed to modify my sampler to include min/max values
20:34 < klafka1> and then i realized i needed to potentially change the mean of my gaussian  i was using for proposal distribution to be centered in that min max range
20:34 < klafka1> it gets a lot more complicated in multivariate space
20:34 < klafka1> blah
20:35 < klafka1> and then i was like 'i see this is why most people just build their own custom MCMC sampler when they need to sample, like you did.'
20:36 < nmz787> MCMC?
20:36 < kanzure> monte-carlo
20:37 < klafka1> markov chain monte carlo
20:37 < klafka1> sorry i talk about mcmc way to much
20:37 < nmz787> what do you use it for? it was kind of rushed over in a bioinformatics 101 type class
20:41 < klafka1> generally numerically estimating intractable integrals which are typically probability spaces
20:41 < klafka1> so for instance you can use it to estimate derivatives in a likelihood function for finding an optimum with gradient descent
20:42 < klafka1> ooor you can use it to estimate a prior for a bayesian classifier
20:43 < klafka1> they use it a lot in physics because you often need to estimate the entropy of a  thiingie but in order to do so you have to calculate the partition function Z which is totally intractable
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20:43 < klafka1> it turns out we use these same methods frmo physics to say learning gene expression networks
20:43 < klafka1> or inferring phylogenies
20:48 < nmz787> intractable?
20:49 < klafka1> as in they don't have a closed form solution
20:49 < kanzure> like various n-body problems
20:49 < nmz787> you mean there are multiple solutions, which you wouldn't be able to reverse and get the same seed?
20:50 < klafka1> no there is a solution but it's impossible to arrive at it from an analytical method
20:50 < nmz787> kanzure, can you try to find an email for me googling site:dgshipping.com "mukul datta"  doesn't return anything (or when i add a comma and reverse so last name then first)
20:51 < nmz787> dgshipping . com
20:51 < klafka1> here is an example http://www.nongnu.org/gsl-shell/doc/vegas.html#usage-example
20:51 < nmz787> i found that he posted on this news article in the comments http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3469760.ece
20:51 < kanzure> nmz787: i don't have any emails from you about dgshipping
20:51 < nmz787> but can't message him or whatever
20:51 < nmz787> not from me
20:51 < kanzure> i don't have any emails about dgshipping
20:51 < nmz787> right
20:52 < nmz787> i wouldnt think so
20:52 < nmz787> i was asking maybe i have worse google-fu than you
20:52 < kanzure> ok so you emailed me something about dgshipping?
20:52 < nmz787> no
20:52 < nmz787> i want to find this persons email
20:52 < kanzure> oh you are looking for someone's email address?
20:52 < kanzure> okay.
20:52 < nmz787> yeah
20:53 < kanzure> dgship@dgshipping.com
20:53 < kanzure> skjaiswal@dgshipping.com
20:53 < kanzure> i thikn the structure is mdatta@dgshipping.com
20:53 < kanzure> *think
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21:14 < nmz787> cool
21:14 < nmz787> thanks, will try
21:14 < nmz787> ok gnight
21:15 < nmz787> klafka1: thanks for the link, i'll check it out
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21:29 < kanzure> pythonocc thing http://julienbld.github.com/pycado/
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23:03 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-m9jQPBPS4
23:03 < kanzure> blender speed modeling thing of a robot thing
23:04 < kanzure> not sure what all those extra parts are for
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23:08 < yashgaroth> heatsinks?
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23:21 < kanzure> "Consequently, workers who operate and maintain machinery suffer approximately 18,000 amputations, lacerations, crushing injuries, abrasions,  and over 800 deaths per year"
23:21 < nmz787> plus the vibrations can cause longterm disease
23:28 < kanzure> fenn: what do you make of these? http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2011/05/26/openscad-screw-libraries-by-syvwlch-and-aubenc/
23:28 < kanzure> https://github.com/syvwlch/Thingiverse-Projects/tree/master/Threaded%20Library
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23:33 < nmz787> kanzure do you normally use a laptop for dev?
23:33 < nmz787> or multiple monitors?
23:33 < kanzure> i use a laptop with multiple monitors, and some other computers
23:33 < kanzure> (plus remote boxes)
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23:34 < nmz787> well i am talking human interface devices, so you prefer multiple monitors, do you use an external keyboard?
23:35 < kanzure> yes i use external keyboards when i feel like it
23:35 < kanzure> i definitely prefer multiple monitors
23:35 < nmz787> can you run more than one from your laptop?
23:35 < nmz787> without using one of those USB video card things?
23:36 < kanzure> no not this laptop
23:36 < kanzure> i think i can run a few x sessions and pipe that into another computer's display, if you want that
23:37 < nmz787> no, asking what you literally use
23:38 < kanzure> at the moment just three screens and three devices
23:38 < nmz787> so one screen per device?
23:39 < kanzure> yes?
23:41 < nmz787> sorry, just wondering
23:53 < brownies> kanzure: simultaneously?
--- Log closed Thu Jun 28 00:00:53 2012