--- Log opened Sat Jun 30 00:00:55 2012
00:10 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:12 < strangewarp> Fox News Qatar... what an enlightening thought
00:16 < strangewarp> ps kanzure: you may want to IP-ban, if you're serious about keeping that guy out
00:17 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@ool-457e5cbd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
00:27 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
00:30 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:52 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:00 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:03 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:20 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@14.78.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:32 -!- audy [~audy@heyaudy.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net]
03:35 -!- audy [~audy@heyaudy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:37 -!- audy [~audy@heyaudy.com] has quit [Client Quit]
03:39 -!- audy [~audy@heyaudy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:56 -!- klafka1 [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
03:57 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
04:00 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:33 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@14.78.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:51 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:01 -!- nathaniel_ [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:04 -!- nathaniel [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
05:47 -!- Smith_PHD [~adam@75.105.14.63] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:03 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@CAcert/Vicarious] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
06:04 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@CAcert/Vicarious] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:49 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:10 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:11 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:24 -!- atomicfawkes [~jack@75-105-14-63.cust.wildblue.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:34 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
07:35 -!- Utopiah [~utopiah@unaffiliated/utopiah] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
07:39 -!- nathaniel_ [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:41 -!- Utopiah [~utopiah@rps7452.ovh.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:46 -!- augur_ [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:46 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:47 -!- rmcl [~rmcl@99-71-136-35.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:54 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:03 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@ool-457e5cbd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:22 -!- augur_ [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:44 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@ool-457e5cbd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
10:48 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@ool-457e5cbd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:49 -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@dsl092-168-049.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:50 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:00 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@ool-457e5cbd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
11:11 -!- Jaakko96 [~Jaakko@host86-152-7-101.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:17 -!- nathaniel [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:29 -!- Jaakko96 [~Jaakko@host86-152-7-101.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
11:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-133-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:40 < neuroscientist> lets get this party started shall we?
11:45  * ThomasEgi hands neuroscientist a party had.. go one
11:45 < ThomasEgi> *on
11:48 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:58 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:12 <@kanzure> "you cannot perform an ACH transfer between two individuals" wtf is the point then
12:14 < atomicfawkes> http://www.snopes.com/fraud/phishing/nacha.asp
12:15 < atomicfawkes> Fake ACH Transfer Failure Notifications Spread ZeuS
12:21 <@kanzure> why are you still here
12:21 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:23 < atomicfawkes> ask yourself that same question
12:23 < atomicfawkes> why is anyone here?
12:23 < atomicfawkes> i dont see why you feel the need to attack me for no reason
12:24 < atomicfawkes> so there is no reason NOT to be here
12:24 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:31 < ThomasEgi> the nonusage of doublenegation is strictly prohibited?...
12:32 < atomicfawkes> I went back to molecular crypto today
12:32 < atomicfawkes> using proteins to do math
12:32 < atomicfawkes> in a petri dish
12:32 < atomicfawkes> theres somethign to that
12:32 < atomicfawkes> biocomputers
12:33 < atomicfawkes> humans are good enough that technology is still an accessory
12:34 < atomicfawkes> im workign on a theory that its sort of like leapfrog.
12:34 < atomicfawkes> humans need food and water to survive
12:35 < atomicfawkes> in order for western civlization to survive humans need food, water, clothes, power, internet
12:35 < atomicfawkes> transportation
12:35 < atomicfawkes> the leapfrog comes in when we need the internet and power to survive
12:35 < atomicfawkes> and some of us have even moved beyond that
12:36 < atomicfawkes> or have moved past the point of food and water
12:36 < atomicfawkes> and literally require electricity
12:38 -!- rmcl [~rmcl@99-71-136-35.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rmcl]
13:00 -!- rmcl [~rmcl@cpe-66-27-103-6.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:11 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:27 < AlonzoTG> I had a 2 day internet outage recently due to a botched speed upgrade (from 6 to 8 megs down and from 768k to 1meg up)
13:27 < AlonzoTG> I also had an 18 hour power outage due to a hurricane strength thunderstorm that came through last night.
13:28 < AlonzoTG> Because I'm not an upload, neither was fatal.
13:28 < AlonzoTG> =P
13:32 -!- rmcl [~rmcl@cpe-66-27-103-6.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rmcl]
13:40 < eudoxia> Note to self: computers for uploads should use NVRAM and switch on automatically once they are plugged in
13:42 < atomicfawkes> yeah 94mph was the highest recorded gust last night
13:43 < atomicfawkes> they were saying 80mph in some places
13:43 < atomicfawkes> it was at least 50 here
13:43 < atomicfawkes> trees down
13:43 < atomicfawkes> i thought we were having a tornado
13:43 < atomicfawkes> tornado ally has moved east a little
13:44 < atomicfawkes> and for the fist time in history my area is getting tornadosa
13:44 < atomicfawkes> we had a couple last year
13:44 < atomicfawkes> never before
13:44 < atomicfawkes> one just half a mile from my house here
13:44 < atomicfawkes> i could hear it
13:48 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:48 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:49 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:49 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:52 < augur> beep
13:52 < eudoxia> boop
13:54 <@kanzure> hi
13:55 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:57 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:05 < augur> tell me about self-assembly!
14:05 <@kanzure> i think reading anything by anyone named "manu-whatever" at CBA/MIT will give you an okay overview of self-assembly
14:06 <@kanzure> in addition, paul rothemund or erik winfree's stuff can give you an okay overview of dna self-assembly
14:06 <@kanzure> http://dna.caltech.edu/
14:07 < augur> hm!
14:07 < atomicfawkes> corps in the beltway were hireing up ppl to do protein assembly
14:07 < atomicfawkes> a few years ago
14:07 < atomicfawkes> dna is sort of quantum
14:08 < atomicfawkes> its not exactly binary
14:08 <@kanzure> of course it's not binary. are you a biologist?
14:08 < eudoxia> it's... quaternary?
14:08 < atomicfawkes> i met francis collins at least once
14:08 <@kanzure> eudoxia: uracil sometimes gets in there, actually
14:09 < eudoxia> yeah, that's what I thought, but isn't that for RNA exclusively?
14:09 <@kanzure> eudoxia: and then you have modified nucleotides. anyway, i don't see what quantum anything has to do with the bit representation.
14:09 < atomicfawkes> adn the ciso for the head of all us spy agencies
14:09 < atomicfawkes> ive done many things
14:09 <@kanzure> no i think uracil can get into dna on occassion
14:09 < eudoxia> that's interesting
14:09 <@kanzure> atomicfawkes: can you please refrain from talking about spy agencies, quantum conscious dna, 9/11, or any of the other things i've kicked you for
14:09 <@kanzure> eudoxia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12483510
14:09 <@kanzure> "Uracil in DNA--occurrence, consequences and repair."
14:10 < atomicfawkes> until you come up with another reason
14:10 < atomicfawkes> sure
14:10 <@kanzure> eudoxia: lots of things can go 'wrong' with dna
14:12 < eudoxia> kanzure: you know, the other day I was thinking: our chem teacher showed us a video about DNa where some guy said they stored the sequence in a .txt file, and I thought, "that's inefficient, if you have 4 nucleotide types you can store 4 per char", but this totally fucks that up
14:12 < atomicfawkes> ive been kicked out of a county in mississippi, cody wyoming and atlanta. in mississippi , (reminds me of you) , i asked them on what charges and they told me 'we'll think of something'
14:12 <@kanzure> eudoxia: not really.. your detection method probably only detects the four nucleotides anyway
14:12 < atomicfawkes> i am genuinely interested in human advancement and biology and have a wide range of experince
14:13 < eudoxia> oh good
14:13 <@kanzure> if you were given a strand of church's "unnatural dna" (with the engineered nucleotides for an engineered polymerase), you wouldn't be able to sequence it reliably (without a different sequencing chemistry)
14:13 <@kanzure> atomicfawkes: interest isn't enough to let you troll in here with your wacky noise
14:15 < atomicfawkes> who's trolling
14:15 < eudoxia> so it would just report the closest nucleotide to what's actually there?
14:16 < atomicfawkes> waky noise is a subjective issue, it takes a villiage
14:16 <@kanzure> atomicfawkes: no it doesn't take a village, go away
14:17 < atomicfawkes> you're just hateful
14:17 <@kanzure> eudoxia: depends on your sequencing chemistry, sorry dude
14:17 <@kanzure> atomicfawkes: yes i am
14:21 < ThomasEgi> eudoxia, how bout base64. not as messed up but still a bit more efficient
14:21 <@kanzure> base64 makes it more complicated to do BLAST
14:22 < eudoxia> are you talking about some biochem thing or the encoding scheme
14:22 < ThomasEgi> the actual encoding of the storage.
14:23 < ThomasEgi> anyone ever did ever meassured the entropy of an dna string? like how much it can be compressed with todays algorithms?
14:23 <@kanzure> it can be compressed pretty well if you allow yourself to reference genes and sequences from ncbi's website
14:29 < ThomasEgi> hm. i was more like compressing the whole sequence as it is. without further need of references other than the decompressing algorithm
14:31 -!- Jora [~Jora@24-196-82-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:31 -!- Jora [~Jora@24-196-82-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host]
14:31 -!- Jora [~Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:35 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: not sure why you would do that when we already have a global index on the web
14:36 < ThomasEgi> curiosity. and it never hurts to have a complete backup
14:36 <@kanzure> well, as far as i know, it's a few terabytes of data on their ftp server
14:37 <@kanzure> if you can get that down to a few gigs, i'll take a copy
14:37 < ThomasEgi> that is what i was wondering about. how compressible dna information is
14:38 < atomicfawkes> I was referrign to dna in the quantum computing sense (ban me if you like) because its not exactly binary
14:38 < atomicfawkes> so in the means of storing data is exponentially more efficient
14:38 < atomicfawkes> as well as the speed at which its processed
14:39 < atomicfawkes> because you have multiple sets of data instead of multiple cores
14:39 < atomicfawkes> cdma
14:40 <@kanzure> i don't think you're communicating anything meaningful right now.
14:40 < atomicfawkes> you have to think about what im saying
14:40 < atomicfawkes> thats all
14:40 <@kanzure> you're not saying anything.
14:41 < atomicfawkes> AT GC is 2 sets of binary
14:41 < atomicfawkes> processed by the same core
14:41 < atomicfawkes> instead of multiple cores
14:41 <@kanzure> what the fuck is a core
14:41 < atomicfawkes> mitochondria
14:41 <@kanzure> sigh
14:41 < eudoxia> whut
14:42 < yashgaroth> hahaha
14:43 <@kanzure> i don't even know how to describe to you how wrong you are right now
14:44 < atomicfawkes> its an analogy
14:44 < atomicfawkes> it doesnt have to be right
14:44 <@kanzure> no, it's shit and you should leave
14:44 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@209-6-62-26.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:46 < atomicfawkes> so youre saying that dna isnt a stream of data?
14:47 < atomicfawkes> or that information isnt contained in dna based on the paring of the halves?
14:47 < atomicfawkes> what are you disagreeing with exactly
14:47 < yashgaroth> 1 being 'not exactly binary' does not make something quantum by default
14:48 < yashgaroth> 2 the speed at which dna is written (not copied, mind you) is excruciatingly slow
14:48 < ThomasEgi> atomicfawkes, listening to you.... what you imply is that a 2bit computer is more powerful than a 64bit one^^
14:48 < yashgaroth> 3 you don't seem to know what a mitochondrion is
14:49 < atomicfawkes> its been a while
14:49 <@kanzure> this is just, not helpful at all
14:49 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, altho i love to disagrre with you, i totaly agree with you on this one
14:51 < atomicfawkes> only quantum in the sense that its not binary
14:51 < atomicfawkes> have you
14:51 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o yashgaroth] by kanzure
14:51 < atomicfawkes> that more states that 1 and 0
14:51 < atomicfawkes> offer exponential opportunities
14:51 < atomicfawkes> for data
14:52  * ThomasEgi greps some popcorn to enjoy the upcomming event
14:52 < atomicfawkes> so with multiple streams of data opposed to multiple cores
14:52 < atomicfawkes> its similar to cellphone technology
14:52 < atomicfawkes> cdma
14:52 < atomicfawkes> code divisional multiple access
14:53 < ThomasEgi> cdma stands for collision detection multiple access. and has little to do with cellphones.
14:53 < atomicfawkes> lol
14:53 < atomicfawkes> cdma was developed by a pianist and a singer
14:53 < atomicfawkes> george antheil and heddy lemar
14:54 < atomicfawkes> and was used to guide torpedos
14:54 < ThomasEgi> seems there are many meanings for cdma. and none belongs into this channel
14:54 < atomicfawkes> dna is code
14:55 < atomicfawkes> id assume that hplus would require modifiying that code
14:55 < atomicfawkes> other wise there is no plus
14:55 <@yashgaroth> *!*@*75*105*14*63* should work well
14:56 < atomicfawkes> its not human road map
14:56 < atomicfawkes> its about how to make a better humanity
14:56 <@kanzure> atomicfawkes: that has nothing to do with quantum mitochondria
14:56 <@kanzure> this isn't about humanity.
14:56 < atomicfawkes> of course not
14:56 <@kanzure> you are not being coherent
14:56 < ThomasEgi> m(
14:59 < atomicfawkes> is it not in the colective interest of this channel to discuss and develop different methods of advancing humanity
14:59 < atomicfawkes> its in the topic
14:59 < atomicfawkes> biohacking
14:59 <@kanzure> nothing you have said today is on-topic
14:59 < atomicfawkes> thers a point to it
15:00 < ThomasEgi> you admit that you are not making sense?
15:00 < ThomasEgi> can't tell if phylosophic, or just confused.
15:06 < atomicfawkes> ThomasEgi, he's admittadly on medication for metal issues, so idk, who knows if he's making sense or not
15:06 < atomicfawkes> we can move past that
15:06 < atomicfawkes> what is the hplusroadmap
15:09 < atomicfawkes> what are the goals of bio hacking, and how should it be directed?
15:09 < atomicfawkes> or directed at all..
15:10 <@kanzure> Metal issues.
15:11 < eudoxia> was that a typo?
15:12 <@yashgaroth> EDTA therapy, I'm sure
15:15 < atomicfawkes> http://reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/vuvoj+
15:16 < atomicfawkes> metal issues
15:16 < atomicfawkes> how freudian
15:28 < ThomasEgi> hm metal issues would be indeed a problem. i don't own a lathe, so metalworking is very difficult for me.
15:35 <@kanzure> aha that explains it. another reddit user. :(
15:36 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:43 < chido> good evening gentlemen
15:44 < chido> I gave a talk today at our hackerspace about the DIYbio FBI trip and people liked it
15:47 -!- Jora is now known as jorathebohemian
15:48 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-20.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:48 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-20.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host]
15:48 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:48 -!- jorathebohemian is now known as Jora
15:49 <@kanzure> chido: neat. any transcript?
15:49 <@kanzure> (i am kidding)
15:51 < chido> kanzure: no, you were dearly missed. and there were words of admiration uttered by the crowd upon me showing them the transcripts you did
15:54 <@kanzure> haha
15:55 < chido> I think there is a videorecording though, but since I gave my talk in my native tongue... I assume that would have been quite a challenge for you to transcribe
15:55 <@kanzure> lots of "dklfasdlkasdflakdfjkal lkdfjladfkadkla akld;kadka;" basically
16:03 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-133-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:12 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:34 -!- kvltist [~Kvltist@p5B15736A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:39 -!- rmcl [~rmcl@99-71-136-35.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:42 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@209-6-62-26.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:43 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@209-6-62-26.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:52 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/]
16:58 <@kanzure> hrmm
16:58 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-82-55.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:02 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@209-6-62-26.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
17:07 <@kanzure> http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science
17:07 <@kanzure> "For whom does academic science as a career make sense? The picture so far is pretty bleak. The American academic scientist earns less than an airplane mechanic, has less job security than a drummer in a boy band, and works longer hours than a Bolivian silver miner."
17:08 < ThomasEgi> sounds pretty sad
17:09 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@209-6-62-26.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:09 < Urchin> it's got to the point where grad students are forming unions, afaik
17:09 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-82-55.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
17:10 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-86-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:10 < brownies> they are?
17:11 < Urchin> why is it so hard for some people to accept that computation causes entropy?
17:11 < brownies> also, what does the author have against boy bands?
17:11 < Urchin> yes, afaik
17:11 < brownies> interesting.
17:11 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:12 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-86-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:12 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-86-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:14 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@209-6-62-26.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
17:15 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:17 <@kanzure> yeah i'd like to see the grad student unions
17:17 <@kanzure> i haven't seen those before. i know there are 'graduate student associations' but they are never unions (they are just "how to interface with the dean" or something)
17:19 < brownies> don't they just... throw parties? what does a student association do, anyway?
17:21 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-86-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
17:21 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@66-87-86-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:23 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@66-87-86-253.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:24 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@static-72-248-51-218.ma.onecommunications.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:28 <@kanzure> brownies: so i know that page is heavily biased towards academic scientists, but i'm still curious how "scientists getting paid more" might come about
17:29 <@kanzure> there's not really too much competition between pharma companies to hire people because they all have the same base set of skills (mostly)
17:29 <@kanzure> and if they need something specific, they just buy the patent and the lab that was associated with it
17:29 <@kanzure> (well, they don't buy the lab, they buy the company that was spun out of the lab)
17:30  * atomicfawkes checks gilead stock
17:32 <@yashgaroth> nah occasionally they'll buy the lab, they just fire everyone
17:32 < chevbird_> Haha
17:33 < brownies> heh, article does make some good points
17:33 < brownies> what about option 3: buy the patent, hire some underpaid college grads who have proven they can add two numbers together, and foot the bill to train them yourself
17:34 < ParahSailin_> grad students unionizing?
17:34 < brownies> kanzure: in any case, you've caught me at a relatively pessimistic time as far as my viewpoint on all this
17:35 < brownies> the other day, i came to accept that even *educating* everyone to a reasonable level of scientific competence has never had a viable business model behind it
17:36 < brownies> kanzure: so for ideas on how to actually increase the economic value of the *output* of that economically unsustainable system... well, that seems rather ambitious.
17:36 < brownies> (i am open to... in fact i would love refutation on... my pessimism here)
17:44 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:52 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:04 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@static-72-248-51-218.ma.onecommunications.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:17 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@static-72-248-51-218.ma.onecommunications.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:28 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:32 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-83-96.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:33 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@static-72-248-51-218.ma.onecommunications.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:37 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-83-96.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:40 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-67-166-99.shv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
18:40 <@kanzure> brownies: or changing the economic output of these research-capable individuals
18:40 <@kanzure> i'm not suggesting that research should be bent to meet company goals
18:40 <@kanzure> but rather that the same set of skills can be repurposed for other tasks
18:44 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@static-72-248-51-218.ma.onecommunications.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:00 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-84-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:03 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@static-72-248-51-218.ma.onecommunications.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:03 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:08 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:14 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-84-122.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:15 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:16 <@kanzure> http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg814/scaled.php?tn=0&server=814&filename=wibwj.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640
19:16 <@kanzure> it's a little weird seeing smari mccarthy next to a picture of tom cruise in the same magazine
19:18 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:21 < brownies> kanzure: tasks such as what?
19:22 < brownies> part of the problem here, btw, is that "research" unfortunately encompasses "slightly-skilled manual labor" which realistically should all be done by robots within the next 5-10 years
19:24 <@kanzure> you mean "should have been done by robots 15 years ago"
19:24 <@kanzure> well i guess if you have bunches of robots the task of researchers then becomes more like programming
19:24 <@yashgaroth> actually that'd be a great way to get scientists to unionize
19:25 <@kanzure> what? automation envy?
19:25 <@yashgaroth> fear of the industry becoming automated
19:25 <@kanzure> no we want the industry automated
19:25 <@kanzure> ... don't we?
19:25 <@yashgaroth> and you'll get that scientist union as well, it's win/win
19:26 <@yashgaroth> shit there's few enough good scientists as it is, the number who know some programming is even less...I'll be practically guaranteed employment
19:27 < ParahSailin_> as long as patents keep the cost of the equipment up, your labor market for science is gonna be out of whack
19:27 < brownies> good point. now that we're dramatically inflating the value of a BS by giving one to approximately everyone, it's safe to assume that PhDs will drop in value as well?
19:27 <@yashgaroth> there's been a huge increase in bio PhDs compared to any other field
19:28 < ParahSailin_> and as long as nih is the biggest source of money
19:28 <@kanzure> phds have always varied wildly.. "interview 100 people and assemble some graphs" gets you a phd sometimes, but not always
19:28 <@kanzure> so i dunno if you can claim that more people getting phds means less quality or something
19:29 <@kanzure> if anything it just means that your curves will have more datapoints or something
19:29 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-81-229.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:29 <@yashgaroth> I'm not saying that, just that it's becoming more standard for the industry to have a phd/postdoc
19:29 <@kanzure> yeah, because they have 100's of thousands of people to hire from and not that many jobs
19:29 <@yashgaroth> 20 years ago you could eventually become a VP with just a BS, now it's pretty well impossible
19:30 <@kanzure> i mean, if the minimum profitable company size that can hire phds like crazy is the size of merck, you're kinda screwed on the employment side ;)
19:30 <@kanzure> so, experiment/project design is already "like" "programming"
19:31 <@kanzure> you design your workflows and then put material through the pipeline and look at the results
19:31 <@kanzure> except.. you also do lots of manual labor in between and sometimes forget the big picture
19:31 <@kanzure> perhaps you were saying (about the programming comment above) that these guys are bad at project design, which i could believe
19:32 <@yashgaroth> me, I just meant computer expertise in general...but yes often scientists are bad at project design as well
19:33 <@kanzure> "we'll fly to the amazon, collect some samples, centrifuge randomly and run gels until we find something that works, then we'll do freeze fracture crystallography and pray we see something" (hrm i guess this isn't an entirely bad project design)
19:34 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+b *!*@*75*105*14*63*] by yashgaroth
19:34 <@kanzure> i definitely think that researchers could be told "make a research plan to defeat alzheimers" and you could get interesting results
19:35 <@kanzure> this is what e.g. the myelin repair foundation does (although, they hired people to write that roadmap for them, and then got academic labs to sign on for different parts)
19:36 <@yashgaroth> that's how it usually goes, though normally it's "find an antibody that will bind to X target with >Y affinity, you have one year"
19:37 <@yashgaroth> a plan for defeating alzheimers is 'give me 100 billion dollars'
19:37 <@kanzure> pfft not quite.
19:37 <@yashgaroth> ok 50 billion, final offer
19:37 <@kanzure> i think they are operating with $20-$25M
19:38 <@kanzure> 2~
19:38 <@kanzure> http://www.myelinrepair.org/
19:38 <@kanzure> "Your gift today will help us reach several myelin repair Phase I Clinical Trials by 2014 and a myelin repair drug to reach patients by 2019." hmm..
19:38 <@kanzure> http://www.myelinrepair.org/research_model/
19:39 <@kanzure> "Our accomplishments to date include: Publication of more than 100 scientific articles and reviews in peer-reviewed journals" wtf
19:39 <@kanzure> "More than $45 million raised to support potential myelin repair"
19:40 <@yashgaroth> how does "addressing every phase in the drug discovery process" "shorten[ing] the time to patient treatments"
19:40 <@kanzure> haha
19:40 <@kanzure> yes so they are obviously a bit cocky
19:40 <@kanzure> their "novel idea" is "have someone steering the ship"
19:40 <@yashgaroth> publishing a hundred papers also seems to go against fast development
19:41 <@kanzure> i think the academic labs are incentivized to do it based on the work they have done with this org
19:41 <@kanzure> they may or may not be pressuring for that
19:41 <@kanzure> anyway, it's obvious that there are many improvements that could be made to their process, but my point in bringing them up is that it's an alternative way of putting researchers to work
19:42 <@kanzure> SENS is another example, although aging is difficult to measure in the first place
19:42 <@yashgaroth> oh definitely, even with all the posturing it'll probably work better than the traditional models
19:45 -!- chevbird_ [~chevbird@66-87-81-229.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:45 < ParahSailin_> i wonder what sens is doing
19:45 < ParahSailin_> did you see any of those guys in the bay area when you were there?
19:50 -!- rmcl [~rmcl@99-71-136-35.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rmcl]
19:58 -!- Jora [~Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:03 < brownies> how can a scientist not know how to design an experiment?
20:03 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:04 <@yashgaroth> an experiment is one thing, a whole project is another
20:18 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:55 <@kanzure> brownies: there are lab researchers who have job descriptions that are effectively "mix these things together every day to make gels for the older students"
20:56 <@kanzure> "god damn it bryan stop using the good mix"
20:57 < brownies> so they literally do the same thing as my blender
20:58 < brownies> but they cost $30,000 per year instead of $500
20:58 < brownies> i'm just kidding, i don't own a blender. i use a 50cent fork to mash things into a bowl.
20:58 < brownies> kanzure: why do they... have jobs...
21:20 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
21:38 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:39 -!- nathaniel_ [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:40 -!- nathaniel [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:41 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@209-6-62-26.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:51 <@kanzure> brownies: "because i always wanted to do research"
21:59 < brownies> kanzure: no, i mean, why did their employer think paying them to do the job of a blender was a good idea
22:01 < brownies> as opposed to buying a blender, which would be 1000x more cost-effective
22:01 < brownies> or, you know, a Science Blender, which is probably 10x the price, but would still be 100x more cost-effective
22:02 <@kanzure> because an undergrad is smarter than a blender?
22:02  * kanzure isn't so sure about this statement
22:43 < JayDugger> Because their employer had $30,000 in the budget which they would later lose if they didn't spend it on something. Justifying one manual blender (undergrad) takes less effort than justifying sixty automatic blenders.
23:05 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:10 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:10 -!- atomicfawkes [~jack@75-105-14-63.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:10 -!- Smith_PHD [~adam@75.105.14.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:12 -!- neuroscientist [4b690e3f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.105.14.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
--- Log closed Sun Jul 01 00:00:55 2012